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| 02:40.31 | Cooobra | LOL kd3 |
| 02:40.33 | Cooobra | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=26560507574&sid=2000 |
| 02:40.55 | kd3 | takes a bow |
| 02:42.44 | Cooobra | just imagine the amount of forum posts that wouldn't exist, if people would simply read |
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| 04:06.38 | pcj | http://larryfire.wordpress.com/2010/08/19/the-burger-king-pizza%C2%A0burger/ |
| 04:26.46 | Cooobra | >< |
| 04:28.05 | Cooobra | Hey... I feel like a pizza, but would prefer a burger... and now there's finally a solution. Thank you Burger King |
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| 04:45.18 | Adys | The 2,520 calorie concoction |
| 04:45.19 | Adys | what |
| 04:45.58 | Adys | what do they put in that thing to get a 2500 calories meal out of it |
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| 04:57.20 | charitwo | pcj have you ever played the game |
| 05:03.22 | Cooobra | the place the whole "cow" in it Adys |
| 05:04.43 | Cooobra | why do you ask char? |
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| 11:08.09 | harl | hi |
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| 12:54.58 | g0urra | so many timeouts |
| 13:32.29 | g0urra | holy shit what's with the wiki being crap |
| 13:33.34 | g0urra | can't do anything without getting timeouts |
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| 15:12.22 | Sky2042 | Hmm. |
| 15:12.38 | g0urra | yep, server timeouts |
| 15:12.40 | g0urra | annoying as fuck |
| 15:13.07 | Sky2042 | I'm not having problems, but I'm just reading cached pages, give or take. |
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| 15:14.56 | g0urra | well I'm trying to add stuff to the wiki, but it's annoying when it timesout 75% of the time |
| 15:15.48 | g0urra | times out* |
| 15:17.27 | Sky2042 | So that's why 'noko' is used on 4chan... |
| 15:24.53 | g0urra | ragefacedesks |
| 15:30.07 | g0urra | okay fuck this, not going to do any editing until they fix this |
| 15:30.10 | g0urra | this is stupid |
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| 16:18.23 | Camicio | you're the op dude |
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| 16:22.29 | PrimalZed | spuh? |
| 16:23.07 | PrimalZed | i've been doing edits with no problem this morning |
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| 16:43.52 | g0urra | I can't fucking edit without getting timeouts |
| 16:43.56 | g0urra | this is BS |
| 16:52.57 | Fisker | hey gou |
| 16:53.00 | Fisker | hey g0urra |
| 16:53.20 | g0urra | way to fail |
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| 17:11.36 | charitwo | ~g0urra |
| 17:11.37 | infobot | hmm... g0urra is gOurra |
| 17:11.43 | charitwo | proof |
| 17:30.02 | nms | so is wikia getting ddosed or is something unintentionally wrong? |
| 17:33.29 | g0urra | nobody knows, the techies won't say anything |
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| 19:05.39 | Sky2042_afk | I have SunChips. |
| 19:06.36 | PrimalZed | i had steak burgers for lunch |
| 19:12.16 | Sky2042_afk | mmmm |
| 19:13.24 | Sky2042_afk | Also, welcome PrimalZed, in case you've not been on before or I've just not seen you. |
| 19:13.43 | Sky2042_afk | Just fyi, ref rpg and ref novel (book?) are deprecated |
| 19:13.44 | PrimalZed | i've been around the past couple days |
| 19:14.16 | PrimalZed | then why are they in the Citations page, mentioned as preferred use? |
| 19:14.29 | Sky2042_afk | Because we haven't gotten around to removing them yet. Heh. |
| 19:14.32 | PrimalZed | Is there anything to take their place? |
| 19:14.54 | Sky2042_afk | Just the title, italicized (and linked if necessary) and the page number. |
| 19:15.22 | PrimalZed | what was wrong with having a templated standard? |
| 19:15.24 | Sky2042_afk | g0urra or coobra (one of the two) does it title, pg x, I prefer title, x |
| 19:15.30 | Sky2042_afk | They're too heavy for the wiki. |
| 19:15.40 | PrimalZed | ah, I see. Huh. |
| 19:15.42 | Sky2042_afk | There isn't really any reason to have something so heavy on here. |
| 19:16.22 | PrimalZed | heavy as in they take up space, or processing power for the browser? |
| 19:16.25 | g0urra | Sky2042_afk: would your rather split something that says "21, 141-142" then? otherwise it would say like "Lands of Conflict, 21, 141-142" |
| 19:17.04 | Sky2042_afk | g0urra: Yeah, I split citations like that if possible. If not, then I do use the latter, I think. |
| 19:17.36 | g0urra | so for example {{cite|LoC|21, 141-142}} to "Lands of Conflict, 21" and "Lands of Conflict, 141-142"? |
| 19:17.36 | Dotted | g0urra meant: www.wowwiki.com/Template:cite|LoC|21,_141-142 |
| 19:17.43 | g0urra | both within their own <ref>, of course |
| 19:17.52 | Sky2042_afk | PrimalZed: heavy as in they're a burden to use, requiring the user either to a) know the template and necessary data off the top of their head or b) open a new tab and copy paste the stuff as necessary. |
| 19:18.12 | Sky2042_afk | g0urra: I'd actually do 141-2, per MLA citation style, but yes. |
| 19:18.19 | Sky2042_afk | g0urra: It's a personal preference. |
| 19:18.27 | g0urra | right |
| 19:18.50 | PrimalZed | so the reason is so we don't have to worry about having a standard? |
| 19:19.14 | Sky2042_afk | PrimalZed: Pretty much. |
| 19:20.18 | PrimalZed | i don't expect people to know them off hand, but that doesn't seem like a reason to deprecate them. |
| 19:20.49 | Sky2042_afk | shrugs. |
| 19:20.57 | Sky2042_afk | They do also take up a lot of space in the references area. |
| 19:21.22 | Sky2042_afk | And they _do_ increase loading time over bare references. I'm not sure that's so noticable when the most references we have is ~50, but it's a documented problem on Wikipedia |
| 19:21.32 | Sky2042_afk | we have on a given page is ~50 |
| 19:21.58 | PrimalZed | the reference area has a lot of horizontal real estate that doesn't get used anyway. |
| 19:22.16 | Sky2042_afk | only if you don't use reflist. |
| 19:22.50 | PrimalZed | I definitely agree that listing the IBSN, and all the editors and stuff for one of the RPG books is kind of over the top. I've just been using them for book, section, page, and quote. |
| 19:23.24 | Sky2042_afk | Which is pretty much fine. I'm personally of the opinion that even 'section' isn't necessary. |
| 19:23.34 | Sky2042_afk | And quote is only sometimes necessary. |
| 19:23.40 | PrimalZed | huh? lots of horizontal real estate == each line on the reflist is only a handful of words long. there's plenty of room for each line to extend further to the right. |
| 19:24.08 | PrimalZed | I find 'section' helpful, especially when the quote is absent. Gives an idea of the context of the citation. |
| 19:24.17 | Sky2042_afk | PrimalZed: That's what I understood you to mean, indeed. |
| 19:24.33 | PrimalZed | so how does that become untrue if you do use reflist? |
| 19:25.04 | Sky2042_afk | Meh. |
| 19:25.13 | Sky2042_afk | I just like having whitespace. I'm a bit of a minimalist. :) |
| 19:25.24 | Sky2042_afk | wonders if he could hunt down his UI from when he played. |
| 19:26.26 | Sky2042_afk | whitespace also does increase legibility. |
| 19:26.45 | PrimalZed | heh. my job right now mostly consists of designing forms to gather data & display analyses. Making use of real estate is a significant thing. Having a line break for every narrow piece of information isn't that good. |
| 19:27.06 | PrimalZed | isn't that like arguing that we shouldn't write in paragraphs? |
| 19:27.47 | Sky2042_afk | We actually shouldn't, per usability testing from the late 90s early 2000s. :) |
| 19:27.51 | PrimalZed | not hostile 'arguing', mind. I've found a lot of people are less comfortable with that word than I am, and get the wrong idea. |
| 19:28.25 | PrimalZed | So how should we write, if not in paragraphs? a line break after every sentence? |
| 19:28.36 | Sky2042_afk | Bullet points; essentially, yes. |
| 19:28.43 | Sky2042_afk | Of course, wikis are different. *cough* |
| 19:28.58 | PrimalZed | seems like it'd be an odd way to write |
| 19:29.14 | Sky2042_afk | Not really. Think of web pages as powerpoint slides. |
| 19:29.17 | Sky2042_afk | :3 |
| 19:29.31 | PrimalZed | they make people start to nod off after the third bullet? |
| 19:29.35 | PrimalZed | ;) |
| 19:29.44 | Sky2042_afk | Only if you've got 3 or 4 sentences per bullet. :P |
| 19:31.34 | PrimalZed | the main reason i've started using quotes in my citations is because, frankly, most people that look to wowwiki for information don't refer back to the source, and it calls into question the fidelity of some of the more controversial things |
| 19:33.00 | Zeal | half the time i found myself treating document structure like a giant list |
| 19:33.14 | Sky2042_afk | Granted, but it's easy to reference both quotes and section without using a template. |
| 19:33.14 | PrimalZed | The Forsaken page in particular had a lot of 'universal truths' extrapolated from case studies, and several things that actually were not corroberated in the cited source (that I could tell). |
| 19:33.15 | Zeal | going down to paragraph level doesn't seem like a stretch. |
| 19:33.16 | Sky2042_afk | shrugs. |
| 19:33.40 | Sky2042_afk | Zeal: A list of <h*>s! :3 |
| 19:33.44 | Zeal | technically, yes. |
| 19:34.03 | PrimalZed | Oh I certainly won't remove the reflist section, Zeal. It's well organized and convenient. |
| 19:34.13 | Zeal | which is kinda why <h*> sucks and we're waving goobye to it. |
| 19:34.28 | Sky2042_afk | I thought that was only in xhtml 2.0 |
| 19:34.32 | Sky2042_afk | huhs. |
| 19:34.39 | Zeal | html5 no? |
| 19:34.42 | PrimalZed | If we're going back to templates, like I said, I just think having a standard is nice. No one is expected to intuitively know the standard, but it helps organization if applied. |
| 19:34.45 | Sky2042_afk | goes back to read the html5 spec. |
| 19:35.01 | PrimalZed | *If the topic is going back to templates, that is |
| 19:35.01 | Zeal | oh wait nvm, i think html5 turned round and made it still exist but there's a new optional container |
| 19:35.06 | Zeal | it really makes no sense, but meh. |
| 19:35.29 | Sky2042_afk | yeah, it was xhtml 2.0 that did away with <h*> |
| 19:35.51 | Zeal | that never even made it to working draft |
| 19:35.54 | Zeal | so no idea |
| 19:36.00 | Sky2042_afk | heh. |
| 19:37.11 | Zeal | leave it as "i don't like html5, but i'll have to use it eventually", despite it's good intentions and many things it does right. :p |
| 19:37.26 | Sky2042_afk | lol |
| 19:37.40 | Sky2042_afk | it's not that bad. |
| 19:38.19 | PrimalZed | My approach to the ref templates isn't so much that they should necessarily be copy & pasted from the documentation, but that the editor should put in however much information they think is relevant, and let the template format that information into the standard. |
| 19:39.06 | Sky2042_afk | PrimalZed: I'm not too worried about it. :) |
| 19:39.09 | PrimalZed | I use xslt to build xhtml at my work. |
| 19:39.29 | Zeal | title (linked), author, publish date. any refernces to specific parts can be sub points. |
| 19:39.40 | Zeal | i forget what style rules i got that from, but it's what i do. |
| 19:40.06 | PrimalZed | I didn't know there was any style rules that has the title before the author. |
| 19:40.24 | PrimalZed | I've just been emitting the author, though. Unless it's one of the novels. |
| 19:40.33 | PrimalZed | *omitting. Kind of the opposite of emitting. |
| 19:41.12 | Zeal | there may not be, i may have made it all up. can't say i really care for many style rules. you'll learn that thinking applies to many things for me PrimalZed ;p |
| 19:41.50 | PrimalZed | I don't care enough about it to try to twist peoples' arms into it. I just think it's nice to have a standard. |
| 19:42.30 | Zeal | standards are nice, but they're as effective as democracy. :p |
| 19:43.03 | PrimalZed | best when enforced by a benevolent dictatorship? |
| 19:43.03 | Sky2042_afk | twists PrimalZed's and Zeal's arms. |
| 19:43.13 | Sky2042_afk | Yes. |
| 19:43.15 | PrimalZed | Now we see the violence inherit in the system! |
| 19:43.49 | Zeal | dictatorship with reproach is my thinking. |
| 19:44.22 | PrimalZed | I was confused when g0urra reverted an edit of mine updating a reference from just a wikilink to the quest to use the {{ref game}} template |
| 19:44.22 | Dotted | PrimalZed meant: www.wowwiki.com/Template:ref_game |
| 19:44.26 | Zeal | and this isn't a complete document, but meh. http://www.zealous-studios.com/docs/ua-id_(1.0).xhtml |
| 19:45.04 | g0urra | show me the edit so refresh my memory |
| 19:45.14 | Sky2042_afk | PrimalZed: ref game's a bit more for the rts, but it can indeed be used for the mmo |
| 19:45.35 | PrimalZed | http://www.wowwiki.com/index.php?title=Forsaken&diff=2350644&oldid=2350634 |
| 19:45.43 | Zeal | Warthok isn't on here, was going to say sorry for reverting him. must have been tired cos i swear the diff show only the change i described, meh. |
| 19:46.45 | PrimalZed | Like I said, I think it's helpful to know the context without having to dig. Same reason why I like having the section name when citing the RPG books. |
| 19:48.23 | PrimalZed | then again, I suppose we do have the tooltips for the quest wikilinks. I didn't realize that at the time. |
| 19:48.29 | g0urra | yeah ref game in that example is pretty superfluous as the wiki is more focused toward WoW (but that might just be me) |
| 19:48.30 | Sky2042_afk | PrimalZed: http://www.wowwiki.com/index.php?title=Forsaken&diff=2364099&oldid=2363955 whitespace go poof! |
| 19:48.49 | g0urra | I've seen ref game is more used in referencing WC3 content |
| 19:48.52 | Sky2042_afk | is that what you were thinking of when you were thinking that there's a lot of space on the right? |
| 19:49.00 | Sky2042_afk | s/thinking/saying/ |
| 19:49.15 | PrimalZed | lol, Sky2042_afk, very nice. |
| 19:49.30 | Sky2042_afk | kicks infobot. |
| 19:49.49 | g0urra | also <ref name="LoC141"> > <ref name="Lands of Conflict 141"> |
| 19:49.51 | PrimalZed | yes, I think that is a very good way to deal with whitespace. |
| 19:49.54 | Sky2042_afk | but yeah, if you've got ~30 references, adding the 2nd column is appropriate. |
| 19:50.05 | *** join/#wowwiki Cooobra (~Cooobra@97.104.14.31) |
| 19:50.05 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Cooobra] by ChanServ |
| 19:51.42 | PrimalZed | g0urra - whats this about LoC141? I've used ref name plenty of times, but not sure what you're getting at. |
| 19:52.08 | g0urra | LoC is the acronym of Lands of Conflict, I don't see why using the full name is better |
| 19:52.30 | PrimalZed | I don't recall making a change along those lines. |
| 19:53.57 | g0urra | didn't say you did |
| 19:54.09 | PrimalZed | So why was it brought up? /confused |
| 19:54.22 | PrimalZed | just apropos of nothing? |
| 19:54.37 | Sky2042_afk | I think that was Drazul, or w/e his name is that did that. |
| 19:56.37 | g0urra | just sayin' it |
| 19:57.36 | PrimalZed | Anyhow, I ought to finish my short story |
| 19:58.58 | PrimalZed | I've seen some people have fan fics attached to their user page. How does that work? |
| 19:59.31 | Sky2042_afk | What do you mean? |
| 20:00.00 | PrimalZed | Eh, nevermind. I doubt anyone would bother reading it on the wiki anyway. |
| 20:00.27 | Sky2042_afk | not necessarily. |
| 20:00.37 | Sky2042_afk | you can always link it from wherever. |
| 20:02.47 | PrimalZed | I more meant something like a sub-article |
| 20:02.54 | PrimalZed | like User:Name/Article |
| 20:03.02 | Sky2042_afk | Well, there you go. Now you know what you need to know. |
| 20:03.04 | Sky2042_afk | :P |
| 20:03.41 | PrimalZed | yeah yeah, good job making me do my own research ;) |
| 20:04.40 | Sky2042_afk | hey, you didn't exactly make your request easy to understand. :P |
| 20:05.16 | PrimalZed | it made sense in my head |
| 20:05.44 | Sky2042_afk | Yeah, well, you're not talkin' to yourself, now are you? |
| 20:05.47 | Sky2042_afk | pft. |
| 20:06.37 | g0urra | ragefacedesks |
| 20:07.13 | Sky2042_afk | sighs at g0urra. |
| 20:07.22 | g0urra | goddamn frenchies |
| 20:08.59 | g0urra | now however if you add fanfic like this: http://www.wowwiki.com/index.php?title=Voren%27thal_the_Seer&diff=1299793&oldid=1299045 |
| 20:09.11 | g0urra | then moar ragefacedesks |
| 20:10.51 | PrimalZed | speaking of fanfic, anyone know whats up with the [[Forsaken analysis]] article? |
| 20:10.52 | Dotted | PrimalZed meant: www.wowwiki.com/Forsaken_analysis |
| 20:19.56 | *** join/#wowwiki Ressolute (~metalhead@adsl-68-189-247.cha.bellsouth.net) |
| 20:30.58 | Cooobra | seems like it was made to give an understanding of why undead joined the horde |
| 20:34.18 | PrimalZed | Isn't that already covered in the main Forsaken article? |
| 20:34.53 | PrimalZed | (which, granted, likely needs more cleaning up) |
| 20:44.14 | PrimalZed | there should probably be a template for major lore events, similar to the http://www.wowwiki.com/Template:Games template |
| 20:44.40 | Cooobra | grr, hate the boat system in beta... they just need to place an npc to at the docks to transport us |
| 20:45.34 | Cooobra | what kind of lore events |
| 20:46.09 | PrimalZed | well for starters, the First, Second, and Third Wars |
| 20:47.20 | PrimalZed | Perhaps novels such as Lord of the Clans, and the Battle of Wrathgate and Battle for the Undercity |
| 20:47.51 | PrimalZed | basically a condenced timeline |
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