IRC log for #wowwiki on 20080318

00:00.18*** join/#wowwiki Sandwichman2448 (n=cyrillpi@177.35.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com)
00:07.41pcjrounded tabs imo
00:07.49pcjmore like the new portals
00:14.05DuTempetebah
00:14.20DuTempeteI'll give that a shot once I have all the pages up
00:22.54*** join/#wowwiki Kirkburn (n=Kirkburn@77-99-230-64.cable.ubr06.azte.blueyonder.co.uk)
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00:24.08bleeterKirkburn: so what's with the DB connection issues recently? I thought the move to Wikia was to alleviate that kinda stuff
00:24.34KirkburnWhat connection issues?
00:25.11bleeterI've been getting the 'too many connections' error page more frequently recently
00:25.31Sandwichman2448http://www.wowwiki.com/WoWWiki_talk:Village_pump#WW_Problems.3F I found this too.
00:25.37KirkburnWhen is recently? There was a bug recently that caused it
00:25.49bleeterlast night *my time), less than 12 hours ago
00:26.10KirkburnWell, about 12 hours ago there was a Wikia-wide maintenance
00:26.31bleeterhmm, odd that it threw up the 'too many connections' error page then, agreed?
00:26.40bleeterthoghu I guess that's a generic thing if it can't chat to the DB
00:26.47DuTempetethe maintenance shouldn't have affected us, though
00:26.54KirkburnWe still haven't moved entirely to Wikia's systems, that's an ongoing process
00:27.09KirkburnDuTempete, that I'm not sure about
00:27.24KirkburnWe're halfway through migration
00:27.28DuTempeteThat's just what I heard :P
00:27.33bleeterKirkburn: was no biggie, really, just thought I'd mention it in passwing. yeah, what Sandwichman2448 linked there is good ;)
00:27.37Kirkburnoh :)
00:28.23KirkburnYeah, I would expect some odd things atm, since the techs will be tweaking things
00:34.11Sandwichman2448Odd how? Just slow?
00:35.16KirkburnI cannot say
00:39.24KirkburnCool (and very large) photo - http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/gallery/images/shuttle/sts-123/hires/iss016e032312.jpg
00:42.26Sandwichman2448I added my thoughts to the Portals! section of the Village pump.
00:42.30Sandwichman2448http://www.wowwiki.com/WoWWiki_talk:Village_pump#Portals.21
00:49.18KalrothKirkburn: Yeah, that's where they spotted the mp3 player ;)
00:50.27KirkburnKalroth, :)
00:50.49KirkburnSandwichman2448, yeah saw it - not sure how to deal with it
00:51.03Sandwichman2448Deal with what?
00:52.51Sandwichman2448I said a few points...
00:52.53KirkburnThe similarity of the portals
00:52.58KirkburnAll of them :P
00:54.03Sandwichman2448Understood.
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04:48.17*** join/#wowwiki uruloki (n=uruloki@pool-72-64-36-116.nrflva.east.verizon.net)
04:48.43urulokigreetings all
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05:18.33pcjslaps kd3
05:18.41pcjslaps Adys
05:18.49pcjhttp://www.wowwiki.com/Special:Contributions/Fuck_Angela_Beesley_because_she_is_an_evil_deceptinazi_bitch_blocker_and_illegally_makes_sure_Assaulthead_cant_come_back_to_wikia
05:18.49pcjslaps Kirkburn|afk
05:19.19Charitwooh dear
05:22.42Charitwothanks Kirkburn|afk
05:23.49Kirkburn|afkYay for cascading protection
05:27.17Kirkburn|afkPing me if he returns
05:27.34Charitwowould have noticed him earlier if wowwiki was on the rc feed >_>
05:27.55Kirkburn|afkYeah, well ... codebase merge ... sometime
05:28.23DuTempeteyou don't want wowwiki on the RC feed
05:28.31pcjlol
05:28.45CharitwoKirkburn|afk: got any heads up on that?
05:28.49Kirkburn|afkWe'd have our own one
05:29.04Kirkburn|afkHeads up is: this week is the /plan/
05:29.14CharitwoDuTempete: if I can handle uncyclopedia and wikia as a whole i can handle wowwiki
05:29.19WoWTempeteHey, leave my Kirkburn alone, he's off the clock :P
05:29.22WoWTempeteand letting med ie :P
05:29.27WoWTempete*me die
05:29.33Kirkburn|afkOne day other things won't have to come first
05:30.26WoWTempetewhat other things before what?
05:30.31Kirkburn|afkCharitwo, WoWWiki is about a 1/3 of the Wikia traffic :P
05:30.46Kirkburn|afke.g. the Wikia database maintenance of this morning
05:31.02Kirkburn|afkOther things keep cropping up, pushing us back
05:31.04CharitwoKirkburn|afk: i think I can handle it :)
05:31.09WoWTempeteah
05:31.49Charitwopokes Kirkburn|afk about rollback
05:31.53Kirkburn|afkCharitwo, yeah, at least we have anon edits off
05:31.58Kirkburn|afkWhat about rollback?
05:32.14Kirkburn|afkYou want rollback on wowwiki?
05:32.15Charitwooh you said you'd give me rollback when the wiki merged
05:32.53WoWTempetewhat rollback and what do you need it for?
05:33.26CharitwoWoWTempete: you haven't seen my global contribs have you :P
05:33.41WoWTempeteso?
05:34.52Kirkburn|afkAaanyway, yes
05:35.33Kirkburn|afkI don't remember that conversation, but I don't see why not
05:35.50Kirkburn|afkEveryone in the patroller group has rollback now, which is like 30 people
05:37.33pcj*does the patroller dance*
05:37.41WoWTempetegiggles at pcj.
05:48.19Fisker-threatens people
05:49.17CharitwoO_O
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06:48.07Adysping pcj
06:48.17Adyser, pong
06:55.58Kirkburn|afkAdys, it was that vandal again
06:57.53PanSolaor at least a vandal who does it in simiilar style
06:58.14PanSolacould be someone else just trying to mimick
06:58.52MentalPoweryeah, it was me, I was bored
06:58.53MentalPowerj/k
06:59.53MentalPowerwell, half joking, since I am bored
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07:19.01AdysKirkburn|afk:  what's the point of cascading protection btw?
07:19.12Adysit's not like they cant recreate another page with almost the same name
07:19.20Kirkburn|afkMeans we don't have to do anything to the talk page
07:20.29Adys*doesnt get it*
07:20.50Kirkburn|afkCascading protection means any page transcluded on that page is also protected
07:21.01Adysyeah i know what it does to the page
07:21.06Adysi just dont understand why we do it
07:21.21Kirkburn|afkVandals can edit their talk page even when banned
07:21.36Kirkburn|afkThis way means we don't have to create and protect those pages
07:22.08Adysoh
07:22.12Adyswtf
07:22.30Adysits always been like that?
07:22.45Kirkburn|afkNo, I requested it a few months back
07:22.48Adysah
07:22.55Adyswould be nice to have a toggle for vandals
07:23.02Adys"able to edit talk page" or something
07:23.04Adys*shrugs*
07:23.13Adysbtw! in other good news
07:23.19Kirkburn|afkYeah, but unfortunately no :(
07:23.25AdysSaving edits in firebug is in the google summer of code project for mozilla
07:34.39Kirkburn|afkI don't know what that is, but yay!
07:40.48Adysyou sir never used firebug?
07:40.53Adys:(
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08:00.05Fisker-a shame google should be extorted by the european government for money just for the heck of it
08:00.10Fisker-like they do with Microsoft
08:00.27Fisker-I guess they'll switch when they run out of invalid reasons or money to blackmail microsoft
08:00.57laurlywont happen to easy to find valid reasons.
08:01.23Fisker-nah
08:11.47Fisker-btw Adys
08:11.52Fisker-you going to that WWI stuff?
08:11.55Adysyes
08:12.30Fisker-:O
08:12.35Adysif you think about coming too, Im bringing a knife
08:13.01Fisker-i doubt it
08:13.23Fisker-wouldn't have the money anyways
08:16.25Fisker-hmm
08:16.30Fisker-"We have a beta coming up"
08:16.36Adysyeah yeah
08:16.39Fisker-That sounds like something you'd say if it was going to be soon
08:17.26Adys"Exclusively play Wrath of the Lich King at the WWI"
08:17.32Adys"The 28th and 29th of June"
08:17.36Adysdoes that tell you something
08:17.44Fisker-no :(
08:18.04Fisker-other than the wotlk might not be that soon :o
08:18.11Adyssee
08:18.21Adysyou might not have to ask microsoft to give you back your brain in the end
08:19.55Fisker-btw
08:20.06Fisker-if you saw the zerg reveal vid
08:20.22Fisker-the crystals looked identical to those in silithus
08:20.22Adysaaahhh who gives a damn about sc2 :p
08:20.26Fisker-no u :(
08:20.35Fisker-was what i was talking about btw
08:20.48Fisker-One of the devs said "We have a beta coming up"
08:20.52Fisker-And i figured that meant soon
08:20.53Fisker-rawr
08:21.03Fisker-i.e. very soon
08:26.14laurlyhates nasty little bugs that take 30 min to find and 2 sec to fix.
08:27.12Fisker-you mean finding anything on google?
08:39.20Kirkburn|afkFisker-, wow, that's some crazy defending of companies there
08:39.52Kirkburn|afkThey're "blackmailing" MS and using extortion on Google?
08:39.57WoWTempeteWell... Fisker- and "crazy" are synonymous, aren't they?
08:40.24Fisker-nah Kirkburn|afk only Microsoft
08:40.31Kirkburn|afkThat's something I would expect an American to say, not someone who lives in the EU
08:41.16Kirkburn|afk"oh noes, socialists are trying to prevent abusive monopolies!"
08:41.46WoWTempetewell, there's a difference between a take-over monopoly, and a government monopoly...
08:41.58Fisker-Yeah cause Microsoft is a monopoly
08:42.01Kirkburn|afkonly MS? Why did you say: "a shame google should be extorted by the european government for money just for the heck of it"
08:42.31Fisker-Because Google is just as abusive as Microsoft is
08:42.32Fisker-if not more
08:42.41WoWTempeteabusive of what?
08:42.59Fisker-"monopoly"
08:43.06Kirkburn|afkThere's abusing a monopoly and creating one
08:43.16WoWTempeteyeah... I'm totally feeling monopolised... with my... not using it...
08:43.32Kirkburn|afkGoogle has one, but it's not really "abusing" it
08:43.37Fisker-sure it is
08:43.55Kirkburn|afkHow?
08:44.26Fisker-They're trying to use their position to wrongly incriminate other companies
08:44.42Fisker-Not to mention they're buying out smaller companies to use their tech for themself
08:48.07Fisker-oh and now we're at it
08:48.26Fisker-Why can't i use altavista's babelfish instead of google translate on google?
08:48.35Fisker-MONOPOLIES!11
08:50.05Kirkburn|afkThere is nothing wrong with buying other companies
08:50.25Fisker-Atleast not when anyone else than Microsoft is doing it
08:51.37Kirkburn|afkGoogle generally buys into new markets
08:52.11Kirkburn|afkThat Google has somewhat of a search monopoly is self-made, and there's nothing wrong with that
08:52.27Kirkburn|afkIf they used that position to shut out competitors - then there's a problem
08:52.35Fisker-They are
08:52.41Kirkburn|afkHow?
08:52.44Fisker-I can't use altavista's babelfish on google translate
08:52.51Adyssmall correction, google usually creates their own stuff, and if it fails horribly like google pics or google vids they buy other markets :P
08:53.10Kirkburn|afkFisker-, well duh, that's not shutting someone out
08:53.12Adysas for google translate, it's not compatible with babelfish or anything since the core is way different
08:53.20Fisker-Kirkburn|afk yes it is
08:53.25AdysIt's assimilated translation
08:53.31Adysbabelfish is dictionary translation
08:53.43Fisker-man Adys write that in an email to Microsoft
08:53.47Fisker-i got an idea for Windows 7
08:53.53Adysyou do
08:53.58Adyssteve.ballmer@microsoft.com
08:53.59Fisker-så make it incompatible in the core with any apps not from Microsoft
08:54.00Adysglhf
08:54.05Fisker-instant win @ antitrust lawsuits
08:54.11Kirkburn|afkFisker-, Google not having the babaelfish option does not prevent you from using babelfish
08:54.19Fisker-No it does not
08:54.37Adysdoesnt understand fisker's point
08:54.39Fisker-Microsoft having Windows Media Player embedded in Windows does not prevent you from using another piece of software either
08:54.44Kirkburn|afkHowever, MS bundling IE does prevent Netscape from competing as it requires that which IE was bundled with
08:54.57Fisker-No it does not
08:55.12Adysit does fisker actually
08:55.17Kirkburn|afkAye, it does
08:55.18Adyssince some core windows apps use IE
08:55.24Adysand you cannot change that
08:55.26Fisker-no
08:55.29Fisker-It uses mshtml
08:55.42Adysgood game, which is bundled with IE
08:55.48Fisker-not really
08:55.52Fisker-it's bundled with Windows
08:56.09Kirkburn|afkThe bundling of WMP is not so clear cut, but it still prevent compeition, as you cannot compete with a free product without being significantly better ... i.e. how Firefox manages it
08:56.13AdysNot getting into another stupid argument, keep your illusions :P
08:56.37Fisker-Kirkburn|afk not their problem
08:56.40Kirkburn|afkAnd certain parts of Windows force the use of WMP
08:56.40Fisker-make better alternatives
08:56.43Fisker-You said it yourself
08:56.44Adysby the way, there is nothing wrong with microsoft buying other companies
08:56.50Fisker-I don't have to use google translate
08:56.51Adysits what they do with them that can get wrong
08:56.53Adyshello hotmail
08:56.54laurlyhopes adys continues shes rather enjoying this entertainment
08:56.57Kirkburn|afkAdys, exactly
08:56.57Fisker-You don't have to use windows media player
08:57.08Fisker-Adys no but it's still a factor in antitrust lawsuits
08:57.31Adysfactor is not what they buy but what they do to them :/
08:57.46Adysits not like OMG MS IS BUYING A COMPANY SUE SUE SUE
08:57.46Fisker-The same
08:57.53Fisker-almost Adys
08:58.01Adyskeyword is almost
08:58.10Fisker-Again that is the point
08:58.17Kirkburn|afk"In Economics, monopoly (also "Pure monopoly") exists when a specific individual or enterprise has sufficient control over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it."
08:58.17Fisker-There's a prejudice against Microsoft
08:58.26Fisker-but in reality google, apple and microsoft are pretty comparable
08:58.35Fisker-They're both "abusing their monopoly"
08:58.37Fisker-err
08:58.39Fisker-all 3*
08:58.47Kirkburn|afkNot really, as Apple does not have a monopoly in the same sense
08:58.50AdysHows Apple abusing any monopoly wtf?
08:58.52Fisker-atleast if you are to take idiots like the eu commision into it
08:58.56Kirkburn|afkAnd Google certainly doesn't have one in the same sense
08:59.12Fisker-itunes for one
08:59.15Kirkburn|afkPCs comes with Windows, the internet doesn't "come" with Google
08:59.15Adysactually, what monopoly does apple have?
08:59.22Adysthey have the majority with itunes/ipod
08:59.25Adysbut no way a monopoly
08:59.31Fisker-noone has a monopoly
08:59.41Kirkburn|afkRead the definition above Fisker
08:59.50Kirkburn|afkMonopoly =/= 100%
08:59.50Fisker-PCs don't come with Windows either
09:00.01Adysaye kirk
09:00.09Kirkburn|afkFor an average consumer, yes they do
09:00.21Fisker-And the average consumer knows google anyways
09:00.29Fisker-so the internet comes with google cause that's all they know
09:00.33Adysthats less true than you think fisker
09:00.40Kirkburn|afkThat certainly doesn't make it a monopoly
09:00.52Fisker-Neither does Microsoft having a big marketshare
09:01.07AdysA monopoly is not a monopoly until you abuse it
09:01.23Adysthats not the exact definition but thats a pretty solid standard
09:01.26Fisker-If you're complaining about bundling on PC's it's vendors like Dell and whatever that has a problem, not Microsoft
09:01.51Fisker-Adys and Microsoft is not abusing their "monopoly" any more than Google or Apple are
09:01.56Adys(dell's one of the only vendors selling PCs bundled with linux, got any better comparison? :P)
09:02.12Fisker-That's only recently they begun to do that
09:02.22AdysApple does NOT have any monopoly at all
09:02.30Fisker-they have
09:02.33Fisker-cause they're abusing it
09:02.47AdysThey dont control the musical market
09:02.49Adysin no way they do
09:02.55Kirkburn|afkYou have to have a monopoly to abuse, too
09:03.05Fisker-oh ok
09:03.08Fisker-So you agree :)
09:03.15Fisker-Microsoft has no monopoly, and thus cannot abuse it
09:03.18Kirkburn|afkActually, I would give him the iTunes/iPod thing
09:03.36Adys*shrugs*
09:03.46Adysmatter of opinion i guess
09:03.51laurlysudenly remembers to plug in her ipod.
09:03.52Kirkburn|afkIt's not the same extent of MS/Windows though
09:04.02Adysand fisker, here are two things for you
09:04.16Fisker-Not a matter of opinion at all
09:04.30AdysA monopoly is not a 100% status, it's the "I have enough market to control the way things go" status
09:04.32Adysand SECONDLY
09:04.34Fisker-Microsoft is being incorrectly targeted by the EU for significant amounts of money without valid reasons
09:04.39Adysa monopoly does NOT matter until its abused
09:04.39Kirkburn|afkThe bundling of IE and WMP in Windows makes marketing such products nigh-on impossible
09:04.56Kirkburn|afkFisker-, *you* think they aren't valid reasons, but many do
09:05.04Fisker-no
09:05.20Fisker-You think that these problems only exist at Microsoft
09:05.23Fisker-They don't
09:05.26Kirkburn|afkHow can you say it's so black and white?
09:05.34Fisker-Any and all companies have a goal, that goal is monopoly
09:05.42AdysNo
09:05.43Kirkburn|afkProfit, actually
09:05.45AdysThe goal is profit
09:05.46Adysyeah
09:05.47Fisker-yes
09:05.53Fisker-and the best profit = monopoly
09:05.55Adysmonopoly does not equal profit you know
09:06.00Fisker-yes it does
09:06.06Adysthats a first grade way to think.
09:06.08Fisker-When you have a monopoly you can set the price
09:06.10Fisker-no it's not
09:06.26Fisker-You're trying to defend something which you cannot defend by trying to redefine the world
09:06.38AdysYes it is, if you've ever taken economy classes it's something you learn very early on
09:06.38Kirkburn|afkThe two are of course linked, but not so strongly
09:07.01Fisker-Adys i guess that's why all the succesful companies are oldschool then
09:07.21AdysLong term profit, do you know what that is?
09:07.42Adysanyone here can tell you google has more value than microsoft
09:07.51Fisker-Most likely
09:08.06AdysYet microsoft has twenty times google'`s revenue
09:08.10Kirkburn|afkWell, er ... actually, I would disagree there. Microsoft has a far wider product range
09:08.33Kirkburn|afkIf the advertising market collapses, Google will have a lot of trouble
09:08.45Kirkburn|afkMS can survive many different market collapses
09:08.50Adysexcept the advertising market is the most stable market in the world hehe
09:08.54Fisker-Well if EU keeps harassing Microsoft they'll collapse as well
09:09.00Kirkburn|afkOn the internet, not so much
09:09.11Kirkburn|afkA couple of billion to MS is nothing
09:09.25Fisker-No
09:09.29Kirkburn|afkIf it was worrying them, they'd be doing more about it
09:09.30Adysit's not much to google either
09:09.34Fisker-But they keep "forgetting" about it
09:09.47Kirkburn|afkExactly, i.e. it's not important
09:09.50Fisker-"OH oops, we just forgot to fine you €2 billion for minesweeper"
09:10.01Kirkburn|afkWait, you're saying the EU forgets?
09:10.05Fisker-You know minesweeper puts other gamecompanies out of a job
09:10.22Kirkburn|afkExaggeration doesn't win arguments
09:10.47Fisker-I'm saying that the EU have no antitrust case anymore
09:10.54Fisker-It was done ~5-6 years ago
09:11.11Kirkburn|afkTrue, but do you forgive a crime if it occured a few years ago?
09:11.30Kirkburn|afkSomeone stole your TV last year: when do you forgive them?
09:11.41Adysok, just one question
09:11.44Fisker-Microsoft didn't stole my TV
09:11.46Fisker-or EU's tv
09:11.47Kirkburn|afkIt's 7 years later - is it then "okay"?
09:11.47AdysFisker-: why exactly are you acting like that
09:11.58Adysare you steve ballmer's family, or employeed by microsoft?
09:12.02Adys(sp)
09:12.09Fisker-Kirkburn|afk is it ok if i put you in yail for a year for stealing a tv
09:12.25Fisker-and then put you in jail for another year when you've finished serving your sentence?
09:12.34Fisker-and then another year when you have finished that "sentence"
09:12.37Fisker-and then another
09:12.38Kirkburn|afkOkay, my allegory was that you can't say "well it happened a few years ago, it's old news now"
09:12.47Fisker-It wasn't what i was saying
09:13.10Kirkburn|afkHow about we use the idea of speeding fines then
09:13.16Fisker-no Adys i'm employed by sanity
09:13.31Kirkburn|afkYou can stack speeding fines if you keep not doing anything about the fact you're speeding
09:13.57Kirkburn|afk(since wer are talking about fines here, not prison sentences)
09:14.23Fisker-That's not relevant
09:14.29Fisker-Microsoft did do something about it
09:14.33Fisker-and they did pay their fines
09:14.44Fisker-and at that moment i consider the matter to be dealt with
09:15.34Fisker-They have nothing to complain about anymore, bundling your software isn't a crime and it's just as much used with people like google and apple
09:15.37Kirkburn|afkMS didn't release the info the commission wanted by the deadline iirc
09:15.44Fisker-no
09:15.48Fisker-And they were fined for that
09:16.13Kirkburn|afkThe problem wasn't bundling software, it was having a monopoly, bundling software, and using that to shut out competition
09:16.34AdysFisker-: honestly man, it's no use crying over MS getting fined for invalid reasons, it wont change anything to you and you certainly wont change our opinions
09:16.44Adysif you want, go ahead and find the money to sue google and apple
09:16.50Adysjust my own words
09:16.52Fisker-nah
09:17.14Fisker-You know at this level it's not about being right or wrong anymore
09:17.20Fisker-It's what people deem to be right or wrong
09:17.24Fisker-which is my point to begin with
09:17.49Fisker-It wasn't easy to use other software than the Microsoft default in the beginning
09:17.51Fisker-and they fixed that
09:18.22Kirkburn|afkYes, because of the EU's and US govt. interventions
09:18.37Fisker-yes
09:18.49Kirkburn|afkA lot of this litigation is from those days
09:19.03Fisker-That doesn't make it any less right
09:19.12Fisker-Microsoft followed up on their decision
09:19.19Fisker-and if they didn't they paid for it, and then followed up on it
09:21.29Kirkburn|afkI'm still not sure why you think the EU "needs" MS or Google's money
09:21.43Kirkburn|afkThe EU's budget is huge
09:22.09Kirkburn|afkThe reason why the numbers are large is because it won't actualyl mean anything to the companies otherwise
09:22.38Kirkburn|afkPlus, the business' they're shutting out would actually have those kinds of numbers
09:22.57Fisker-i'm not saying they need it
09:23.06Fisker-I'm just saying they don't have any valid reasons to have it
09:23.27Kirkburn|afkBut they do, as the fines are from the days when MS didn't comply
09:24.02Fisker-yeah with stuff they shouldn't have to comply with
09:24.05Fisker-like the WMP case
09:24.55Fisker-They're basically telling Microsoft to treat their customers worse
09:25.04Fisker-or get a big fine
09:25.59Kirkburn|afkI do agree that the WMP case is not as clear cut as the IE case, but it still shut out competition, and WMP was strongly integrated into Windows
09:27.08Fisker-It wasn't at all strongly integrated, the only thing there were about the whole "strongly integrated" thing was that it was hard for third party companies to replace Microsoft products
09:27.14Kirkburn|afkThat there was an existing market likely played a big part in it
09:27.29Kirkburn|afkThat is exactly why it was a problem
09:27.40Kirkburn|afkIt was hard to replace, which it should not have been
09:27.48Fisker-Which is wasn't
09:27.52Fisker-And it wasn't the problem either
09:28.01Fisker-The problem was the online store they had also integrated in WMP
09:28.53Fisker-But again it is no different than iTunes having their iTunes store
09:28.53Kirkburn|afkIn March 2004, the European Commission in the European Union Microsoft antitrust case fined Microsoft €497 million and ordered the company to provide a version of Windows without Windows Media Player, claiming Microsoft "broke European Union competition law by leveraging its near monopoly in the market for PC operating systems onto the markets for work group server operating systems and for media players".
09:30.07Kirkburn|afkApple doesn't have a monopoly to leverage though, apart from on Apple PCs ... I don't agree with the closed model they operate, but it's onyl a monopoly within Apples section of the marketplace
09:32.59Kirkburn|afkThis would be a good article to read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Microsoft_antitrust_case
09:38.48Fisker-nah
09:38.54Fisker-The legal documents are better to read
09:39.30Fisker-Which does mention the online store as a problem
09:39.41Fisker-But it is certainly not the integration that is a problem
09:39.47Fisker-but rather the windows media format
09:39.58Kirkburn|afkIf that was the case, wouldn't that article say such?
09:40.07Fisker-which still doesn't have anything to do with the Windows Media Player
09:40.14Fisker-It's wikipedia
09:40.52Kirkburn|afkSo, I should trust you over everyone who's edited that article?
09:41.03Fisker-You can read the legal documents yourself
09:42.09Fisker-page 32 and down
09:42.28Fisker-The main issue is the Windows Media format
09:42.53Fisker-but it also talks a bit about the windows media store or whatever it was called
09:44.33Kirkburn|afkSo ... your point is?
09:45.06Kirkburn|afkI've not commented on what the exact WMP was, just that one existed
09:45.16Kirkburn|afk*exact WMP problem
09:45.29Fisker-It's not a WMP problem
09:45.35Fisker-It's a WM problem
09:46.08Kirkburn|afkYou're using semantics?
09:46.30Fisker-No
09:46.41Kirkburn|afkThe store is accessed via WMP, and WM files are played ... via WMP
09:47.14Fisker-The store is accessed via iTunes, and apple drm files are played, via iTunes
09:47.27Fisker-When we're talking Windows Media the player isn't an issue
09:48.01Fisker-The problem was that other developers would have a hard time making players able to play Windows Media format
09:48.57Fisker-And removing WMP from Windows wouldn't have any effect on that
09:49.04Kirkburn|afkWhy, exactly, do the Wikipedia articles not mention that?
09:49.15Fisker-I don't know
09:49.19Kirkburn|afkThey all mention WMP as a whole
09:49.40Kirkburn|afk"In 2003–2004, the European Commission investigated the bundling of Windows Media Player into Windows, a practice which rivals complained was destroying the market for their own products."
09:51.38Kirkburn|afkProbably another link to read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft#Government_anti-trust_suits
09:53.00Fisker-http://www.news.com/Is-EU-looking-at-yesterdays-Microsoft/2100-1025_3-5171067.html
09:53.03Kirkburn|afkWhether ot not it was specific parts of WMP that were the problem, the way it was bundled violated competition, as MS used it's dominant position in the OS market to push it's way into the Media Player market
09:54.03Kirkburn|afkSame response as earlier: at what point do you forgive something breaking the law?
09:54.18Fisker-Just like google used it's dominant position on the search engine market to push their way into the video market
09:54.35Kirkburn|afkNo, they used their money to buy Youtube o_O
09:54.48Fisker-Microsoft used their money to develop Windows Media
09:54.50Kirkburn|afkUsing Google search doesn't force you to use Youtube
09:54.59Fisker-Neither does Windows
09:55.00Kirkburn|afkUsing Windows does force you to use WMP
09:55.04Fisker-no
09:55.49Fisker-It did to some extent in the past, but making an version of Windows where WMP isn't bundled isn't what fixes that
09:56.27Fisker-The "progam access and defaults" and the windows media SDK is what fixed that
09:56.57Fisker-If i search on google i'll also be prompted by google video and youtube links, though i may not want them
09:57.11Kirkburn|afkSo exactly what are we arguing about? You're arguing with me saying what MS once did, by saying they're not doing it now
09:57.28Fisker-so you are indeed being just as much forced to use youtube as consumers are being forced to use WMP
09:57.40Kirkburn|afkWhatever they're doing right now, MS did break the law when this whole EU issue flared up
09:57.40Fisker-Kirkburn|afk i'm saying that removing WMP is irrelevant
09:57.56Fisker-That was the whole point of the discussion
09:58.05Fisker-EU harassing Microsoft with invalid reasons
09:58.58Fisker-EU have basically harassed Microsoft into treating their customers worse by making it more difficult to make a choice about their operating system, and perhaps leaving them in a situation where the customer can't playback video
09:59.05Kirkburn|afkAgain, the EU thing is not based around the current situation
09:59.25Kirkburn|afkIt is all based around MS not complying with stuff from years ago
09:59.33Fisker-The customer chooses a N version and doesn't have internet, or doesn't know better? Oh then you can't play video, ownt.
09:59.59Kirkburn|afkThe customer will be in the full knowledge that that is the case
10:00.16Fisker-no he will not
10:00.26Fisker-Because Microsoft defined operating systems
10:00.27Kirkburn|afkWhat kind of odd world do you live in?
10:00.40Fisker-The world where not every person is a genius
10:00.44Fisker-i.e. the real world
10:00.45Kirkburn|afkWhat will the N mean to the consumer? What will it say on the box? "Noodle"?
10:01.02Fisker-The consumer doesn't know jackshit about the N
10:01.16Kirkburn|afkWhy the hell would that have to be the case?
10:01.27Fisker-Why wouldn't it?
10:02.01Kirkburn|afkbecause the freakin EU said provide a copy with media player ... you think MS are going to put the N version out there and not say how it's missing stuff?
10:02.01Fisker-You've never heard people thinking the monitor is the pc? You've never heard people referring the towercasing to as a harddrive?
10:02.09Kirkburn|afkYeah, you'd have real happy customers then
10:03.52Kirkburn|afkSomeone's lack of knowledge about a PC is not an excuse to abuse a monopoly just cause it's in their best interests
10:04.19Fisker-It's not an abuse of monopoly
10:04.23Kirkburn|afkIt may not be in their best interests, but I would bet it would be in the interest of everyone who works for a company making a media player for Windows
10:04.30Fisker-It's called customer service
10:04.35Kirkburn|afk"MS used it's dominant position in the OS market to push it's way into the Media Player market"
10:04.45elmargolIts called spying on users
10:04.57Fisker-That is not a Windows Media Player related issue that requires the removal of WMP
10:05.40Kirkburn|afkThere was an existing market for media players that MS shut out
10:05.58Kirkburn|afkThe EU commission doesn't agree with you that a media player is an integral part of an OS
10:06.20Kirkburn|afk(or at least wasn't, at the time this all occured)
10:06.21Fisker-The EU commission doesn't develop operating systems
10:06.55Kirkburn|afkNo, and a judge doesn't get divorced every day, but he can still preside over the McCartney's proceedings
10:07.21Kirkburn|afkThose who hand down judgements are supposed to be impartial
10:08.44Kirkburn|afkThey only need to know what an OS is, not how to develop one
10:09.21Fisker-They obviously didn't know what an OS was then since they found it crucial to remove WMP then
10:09.25Kirkburn|afkAt a basic level, an OS is only supposed to provide a framework for other programs to run on it
10:10.02Fisker-At a pratical level, the way it's been since pretty much 1981 the OS will include tools
10:10.06Kirkburn|afkNo, the idea wasn't to remove WMP entirely, it was to give consumers the /choice/ to remove WMP entirely
10:10.07Fisker-Anything else i would call a kernel
10:10.39Fisker-No it wasn't
10:10.54Kirkburn|afkWhy, then, did they not make MS sell only Windows N?
10:10.56Fisker-cause then they would've requested Windows to be remade into an edition which could exclude Windows Media Player
10:11.14Kirkburn|afkYes, that's Windows N o_O
10:11.20Fisker-no it's not
10:11.23Fisker-That would be Windows
10:11.31Kirkburn|afkWindows N = Windows minus WMP
10:11.32Fisker-and you would have this little checkbox "Want Windows Media player?"
10:11.40Fisker-And it would be checked off as default of course
10:11.52Fisker-So they don't abuse their checkbox monopoly!
10:12.14Fisker-Windows N is useless if the purpose was to simply give users the choice of installing WMP or not
10:12.15Kirkburn|afkYeah, that would have been the correct solution, if MS actually wanted to allow that
10:12.49Fisker-ah ok
10:13.04Fisker-Didn't know Microsoft decided their own fate on that matter
10:13.09Kirkburn|afkThey went for Windows N cause they knew no-one would buy it
10:13.16Fisker-Pretty stupid they paid all those fines if they could've just said "Ah screw it"
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10:13.54Kirkburn|afkWindows N complied with what the commission wanted, whilst actually not solving the issue
10:14.11Kirkburn|afkYou wonder why they're still pissed off?
10:14.25Fisker-learn2specify
10:14.47Kirkburn|afkYou want the commission to exert even more control?
10:14.55Kirkburn|afkI thought you wanted them to leave MS alone?
10:15.09Kirkburn|afkYou can't have it both ways
10:15.51Fisker-Their inability to make a proper ruling in the case, if that is the case, is not the fault of Microsoft's
10:16.02Kirkburn|afkEither they tell MS specifically how to develop their products, which would be insane, or they do this, and wait for MS to actually come up with a good solution
10:16.17Kirkburn|afkSo, what is it, you want them to tell MS how to make software?
10:16.31Fisker-no
10:16.42Kirkburn|afkSo what ruling would you have had them make?
10:16.48Fisker-If their agenda wasn't Windows N, then they should've made it so it wouldn't be like that
10:16.50Fisker-None
10:17.05Kirkburn|afkNot an option
10:17.05Fisker-Windows Media Player itself had nothing to do with being anti-competitive
10:17.08Fisker-Yes it is
10:17.23Kirkburn|afkIt is, in your world, but not in the real world where MS broke the law
10:17.45Fisker-So if you're speeding i should just put you in jail for murder
10:17.48Kirkburn|afkDo I have to keep repeating "MS used it's dominant position in the OS market to push it's way into the Media Player market"
10:17.52Fisker-I didn't know breaking the law allowed such
10:17.54Kirkburn|afkw. t. f.
10:18.03Kirkburn|afkIt's a fine, Fisker-
10:18.20Fisker-Do i have to keep repeating that Windows Media Player wasn't the issue?
10:18.38Kirkburn|afkYou can if you want, but the evidence seems to differ
10:18.47Fisker-no it doesn't
10:18.59Kirkburn|afkIf it wasn't the issue, why does almost every source state such?
10:19.25Fisker-If it was the issue why does official EU document state otherwise?
10:19.41Kirkburn|afkBecause that's one document, relating to one thing?
10:19.55Fisker-nope.
10:19.57Kirkburn|afkWhere is this document, anyway, you've not linked it
10:20.12Fisker-Was in the wikipedia article you linked earlier
10:20.31Fisker-i rather read the sources than trust a page like wikipedia
10:20.34Fisker-http://ec.europa.eu/comm/competition/antitrust/cases/decisions/37792/en.pdf
10:20.43Fisker-page 32 and down
10:21.23Kirkburn|afkThere's criticism of Wikipedia, and there's silly criticism of Wikipedia
10:22.28Fisker-what's that got to do with anything?
10:23.12Kirkburn|afkOkay, so while you're pointing at page 32, can I point at page 5?
10:23.42Kirkburn|afk"The second Statement of Objections concerned issues of interoperability as well as the incorporation of Windows Media Player in Windows"
10:24.25Kirkburn|afkSaying you'd rather read the sources, and then selectively quoting them, whilst criticising Wikipedia was not selectively quoting them ... is silly.
10:24.37Kirkburn|afks/was/for/
10:24.54Fisker-Kirkburn|afk i'm not selectively quoting them
10:25.07Fisker-But that's not proof Windows Media Player is a problem
10:25.10Fisker-That's opinion
10:25.37Fisker-The proof, which i read, is more about the DRM, the formats and the online capabillities of WM/WMP
10:26.00Fisker-I'm not arguing that they think they're doing it because WMP is an issue
10:26.12Fisker-if they didn't the outcome obviously wouldn't have been the same
10:26.22Fisker-I'm arguing that the issue is not WMP
10:26.24Fisker-cause it is not
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10:26.57Fisker-The issue is that other developers have a hard time serving or decoding windows media formats
10:27.35Fisker-So for example since they can't really decode Windows Media they can't make an alternative to WMP
10:27.59Fisker-But if they remove Windows Media Player, they still can't make an alternative to Windows Media Player
10:28.10Fisker-So their decision fixes nothing
10:28.47Fisker-But for example making it so that Microsoft has to put out documentation on windows media makes alternatives possible
10:28.49Kirkburn|afkThe commission said WMP is the problem ... so WMP is the problem. Seeing as we're talking about the commission.
10:29.09Fisker-Then we're not in the same discussion
10:29.40Kirkburn|afkNo, we're not, as I've always been talking about the abuse of the monopoly
10:29.55Kirkburn|afkNot about the details of interoperability
10:30.04Fisker-It's the same thing
10:30.15Fisker-The abuse of the monoply is the lack of interoperability
10:30.31Fisker-Which is why EU is harassing Microsoft when they're fining them for Windows Media Player
10:30.39Fisker-and getting them to make seperate versions of windows
10:30.50Fisker-Which they according to you are still pissed at as it didn't fix their agenda
10:31.00Fisker-which according to you apparently makes it ok to continually harass them
10:31.13Kirkburn|afk"The second Statement of Objections concerned issues of interoperability as well as the incorporation of Windows Media Player in Windows" <-- so the last part of that doesn't exist?
10:31.42Fisker-No
10:31.45Fisker-err yes
10:31.52Fisker-But it still doesn't make it right
10:32.13Fisker-"The second Statement of Objections concerned issues of 1+1 = 3"
10:32.15Fisker-doesn't mean 1+1 = 3
10:32.26Fisker-that's what you can boil it down to
10:32.29Kirkburn|afkYou're worried about how their harassing MS? It's a company, not a person
10:32.46Fisker-And it makes it ok?
10:33.06Fisker-My point was the prejudice and how similar tactics are used by other "good" companies
10:33.11Fisker-i seem to have gotten that point across well
10:33.23Kirkburn|afkNo, you haven't
10:33.26Fisker-Yes i have
10:33.51Kirkburn|afkUm, isn't that for me and Adys to decide?
10:34.05Fisker-You've just said i shouldn't be worried about Microsoft being harassed since it's a company and not a person
10:34.26Fisker-a company > a person
10:34.36Kirkburn|afkNo, I said that the fact they're being harassed is not a reason to be worried for them
10:34.52Kirkburn|afkIt's a subtle, but important different
10:34.57Kirkburn|afk*difference
10:35.02Fisker-no it's not
10:35.04Adysyou havent gotten any point across fisker
10:35.12Adysyou dont make any sense since you started weeks ago
10:35.24Adysand it is indeed up to kirk and me to decide
10:35.29Kirkburn|afkI defend MS from a lot, but not from this
10:36.07Fisker-I don't defend based on company, or status within a community
10:36.12Fisker-like people in here seems to do
10:36.12Adysright
10:36.35Kirkburn|afkYou are saying interoperability is the only issue, when the quoted statement of objections above says otherwise
10:36.37Adysyou think Im gonna swallow that :P
10:37.06Fisker-I am saying you murdered people
10:37.13Fisker-i don't care if i don't have any evidence
10:37.16Fisker-but you did murder people
10:37.23Kirkburn|afkoookay
10:37.26Fisker-yup
10:37.34Fisker-I found that you didn't murder people in my investigations
10:37.35Adyscmon kirk, hes right for once
10:37.38Fisker-but you did murder people
10:37.39Adyshe just doesnt see the wrong in that
10:37.43Kirkburn|afkYou really gotta work on that whole exaggeration to prove a point thing
10:37.48Fisker-no
10:38.06Fisker-Accusing someone of something and proving something entirely different doesn't make the accusation right
10:38.15Fisker-The commision might be concerned by Windows Media Player
10:38.22Fisker-but their facts revolved around Windows Media
10:38.29Kirkburn|afkSo you are saying that MS did not use its dominant position in the OS market to push it's way into the Media Player market?
10:38.39Fisker-They can't prove Windows Media Player is a problem when the facts show Windows Media as the problem.
10:38.43Fisker-No i'm not
10:38.45Adyssigh :)
10:39.05Fisker-I'm saying that Microsoft didn't use Windows Media Player to gain a dominant position in the media player market
10:39.21Fisker-Since you can't
10:39.46Kirkburn|afkThat's a vague rewording of the sentence
10:39.58Kirkburn|afkEssentially a "yes"
10:40.27Fisker-I'm not saying Microsoft didn't abuse their dominant position
10:40.38Fisker-I'm saying Windows Media Player wasn't the tool
10:40.45Fisker-And evidence suggests the same
10:40.45foxlitdouble negatives make baby foxes cry :(
10:40.56Fisker-As well as the fact you can't really do that
10:41.01Kirkburn|afkWMP wasn't the tool? The tool for what?
10:41.41Kirkburn|afkThis sentence: "So you are saying that MS did not use its dominant position in the OS market to push it's way into the Media Player market?" ... uses the words "player".
10:41.43Fisker-achieving a dominant position in the media player market
10:42.06Fisker-Gonna knock it down a notch
10:42.16Kirkburn|afkWait, so you're saying they got WMP into dominance without actually using WMP?
10:42.24Kirkburn|afkThat's quite the achievement
10:42.32Fisker-no it's not
10:42.43Fisker-You can't use google videos to achive a dominant position in the web videos market
10:42.58Fisker-Cause if you're using google videos you've gained the position fair and square
10:43.10Fisker-you can however use your search engine to gain a dominant position in the market
10:43.26Fisker-For example when i search on something i'll get links to youtube and google videos if there are similar videos there
10:44.05Fisker-But if i'm unaware of google videos and youtube then they obviously can't use google video or youtube to refer to themself
10:44.14Fisker-But they can use the search engine (which i am aware of) to do so
10:45.27Kirkburn|afkGoogle nor Youtube nor GV are monopolies though
10:45.29Adysyoutube was dominant before google acquired it
10:45.37Fisker-Not the point
10:45.39Adysand its not a monopoly indeed
10:45.44Kirkburn|afkDominant, but not monopolies
10:45.51Fisker-Same shit for Microsoft
10:45.56Fisker-But still not the point
10:45.57Kirkburn|afkHardly
10:46.03Adysright ok
10:46.07Fisker-Microsoft is not a monopoly, and it will never be
10:46.11Fisker-and it has never been
10:46.13Adysright ok
10:46.15Fisker-it has had a dominant position
10:46.21Fisker-But get to the point instead
10:46.41Kirkburn|afkDid you really read the earlier definition of monopoly?
10:46.43Adysfisker explain me why windows is not a monopoly
10:46.50Adyswindows specifically
10:47.03Fisker-Kirkburn|afk don't even bother, i know even the european commision doesn't define it as a monopoly
10:47.13Fisker-at best i've seen "Duopoly"
10:47.20AdysITS NOT THE EU COMMISSION DEFINITION ARGH
10:47.26Fisker-A real monopoly is 100% market share
10:47.31Adysa monopoly DOES NOT EQUAL 100%
10:47.34Fisker-yes it does
10:47.36Adysstop trying to think that
10:47.38Adysit does not
10:47.42Fisker-yes it does
10:47.45Adysit does not and it does not, jusst get this in your head
10:47.49Fisker-it's original definition has been that
10:48.03Fisker-and your new definition you came up 5 years ago is invalid
10:48.10Kirkburn|afkWhy did I have this feeling it'd all come down to semantics
10:48.13Adysits not my new definition
10:48.13Fisker-And it STILL isn't the point
10:48.20Fisker-Kirkburn|afk you're the one starting the semantics here
10:48.24Kirkburn|afklol @ the idea it's a new definition
10:48.25Fisker-I'm merely responding to them
10:48.26Adysno one gives a shit about the old definition, we are not trying to make a dictionary here
10:48.40Adysits the point we are trying to give across that counts
10:48.44Adysnot the definition
10:48.53Adysi dont give a damn about monopoly meaning 100% or not
10:49.00Fisker-Neither do i
10:49.03Adysi give a damn about whether microsoft controls the market
10:49.04Adysand they do
10:49.12Fisker-No
10:49.17Fisker-That would be abuse
10:49.18Adysand i call that a monopoly because a monopoly is a term used to say ms controls the market
10:49.27Adysnow stop trying to reword shit
10:49.36Adysyouve been on it since two hours and twenty minutes)
10:49.37Fisker-And if Microsoft have a monopoly Google and a lot of other companies have as well
10:49.38Adysgrats
10:49.43Fisker-No
10:49.48Fisker-My original point remains
10:49.49Adysyes you have
10:49.55Adysit remains in your head
10:49.58Adyswhat are you trying to do
10:50.01Adysconvince us?
10:50.01Fisker-[11:44:13] <+Fisker-> But if i'm unaware of google videos and youtube then they obviously can't use google video or youtube to refer to themself
10:50.02Fisker-[11:44:22] <+Fisker-> But they can use the search engine (which i am aware of) to do so
10:50.06Fisker-[11:45:35] <@Kirkburn|afk> Google nor Youtube nor GV are monopolies though
10:50.06Fisker-[11:45:38] <@Adys> youtube was dominant before google acquired it
10:50.12Fisker-and you turn it into a semantics shitfest
10:50.17Adysi do?
10:50.19Adysyou do, dude
10:50.22Fisker-no
10:50.27Adysyes you fucking do
10:50.29Fisker-No
10:50.33Fisker-Google is an example
10:50.38Adys[11:47:53] <+Fisker-> it's original definition has been that
10:50.38Adys[11:48:08] <+Fisker-> and your new definition you came up 5 years ago is invalid
10:50.45Adysthats me turning it into semantics, totally
10:50.46Fisker-Yes
10:50.54Fisker-That is a response to you
10:50.58Kirkburn|afkThe point when Google and Youtube have no real competitors, then this will become worthwhile
10:50.59Fisker-After YOU have turned it into semantics
10:51.13Fisker-"no real competitors"
10:51.17Adysyou know what semantics are as much as you know what monopolies are
10:51.34Adysyou`re way down in your own world fisker
10:51.34Fisker-Linux is a pretty real competitor to Windows
10:51.38Kirkburn|afkYeah, like Live Search, Yahoo, Ask.com, etc
10:51.39Adysno its not
10:51.43Fisker-Yes it is
10:51.46Adyslinux is a threat to windows, but not a competitor
10:51.51Adysit has under 0.8% share
10:52.01Fisker-perhaps on the desktop market
10:52.05Fisker-But it's still not the point
10:52.16Adysyes we're talking desktop
10:52.27Kirkburn|afkThis whole thing has always been about the desktop market
10:52.28Adysbecause anyone using windows server is an idiot or doesnt need efficiency
10:52.30Fisker-No we're not
10:52.35Adysyes it has fisker
10:52.38Adysin your head it hasnt
10:52.52Adysin EVERYONE ELSE's heads it has
10:53.02Fisker-The current discussion is whether or not i can use a product to gain a monopoly on that same product
10:53.07Fisker-Yeah i'm sorry if you can't read
10:53.24Kirkburn|afkWhat? No?
10:53.27Adysno, im sorry if you cant convince us while talking about something different
10:53.37Adysactually, Im sorry you wasted two hours doing only that
10:53.43Fisker-[11:44:13] <+Fisker-> But if i'm unaware of google videos and youtube then they obviously can't use google video or youtube to refer to themself
10:53.43Fisker-[11:44:22] <+Fisker-> But they can use the search engine (which i am aware of) to do so
10:53.50Kirkburn|afk"MS used it's dominant position in the OS market to push it's way into the Media Player market" <-- that was the discussion
10:53.51AdysI dont give a damn.
10:53.57Fisker-Yes
10:54.03Fisker-No you don't give a damn Adys
10:54.07Fisker-just validating my point
10:54.17Fisker-cause for you it was just "OMG GOOGLE HE MIGHT BE BADMOUTHING ATTAAAAAAAAAAAAACK"
10:54.26Kirkburn|afkAnd for me?
10:54.29Adysi defend my company, im in my own right?
10:54.34Kirkburn|afkSomeone who normally defends MS?
10:54.42Fisker-Adys you're defending your company against nothing
10:54.47Fisker-Cause i'm not attacking it
10:54.49Adysagainst total nonsense
10:54.59Adysand im not defending google here
10:55.02Kirkburn|afkHow do I fit into this turf defence thing?
10:55.07AdysIm defending kirkburn whos trying to point out your nonsense
10:55.11Fisker-Nope
10:55.18Adysyes believe me i am
10:55.25Fisker-It isn't nonsense
10:55.26Adysstop trying to make the rules you dont
10:55.53Adysdude, if a prophet comes up 800 years ago and tells stuff that doesnt make sense to anyone but him, its nonsense
10:55.56Fisker-You can try to keep back on the original topic or stop trying to make the socalled rules yourself
10:55.58Adyseven if it makes sense to him.
10:56.17Kirkburn|afkNot sure what the topic was now ... /me goes and looks
10:56.18Fisker-That it doesn't make sense to you doesn't make it nonsense either
10:56.33Adysit doesnt make sense to anyone here but you
10:56.36Adysthats the whole point
10:56.47Adyswho the hell is this beerbot?
10:56.50Fisker-You can't speak for all of here
10:56.54Fisker-so don't
10:57.02Adysyou wanna bet?
10:57.09Adyshow many are in this discussion? three of us
10:57.16Adysand so far, to kirk its nonsense, feel free to correct me kirk
10:57.25Fisker-[11:56:42] <@Adys> it doesnt make sense to anyone here but you
10:57.27Kirkburn|afkheh
10:57.28Fisker-That means #wowwiki
10:57.34AdysNo, that means kirk, you, and me
10:57.44Fisker-No it doesn't
10:57.48Adysand anyone who joins the discussion
10:57.53Adysyes it does, dont tell me what it doesnt mean
10:58.02Fisker-[11:56:26] <+Fisker-> That it doesn't make sense to you doesn't make it nonsense either
10:58.09Fisker-So who is here except us 3?
10:58.17Fisker-Redundant comment then
10:58.20AdysAsk then?
10:58.31AdysWho here is following this discussion and wants to prove someone's point?
10:58.34Kirkburn|afkYeah, as if anyone wants to join in this :P
10:58.37AdysQuestion to the chan.
10:58.44Adysyeah i think kirk sums it up pretty well
10:58.46Fisker-I'm saying just because it doesn't make sense to any of you doesn't mean it's nonsense
10:58.58*** join/#wowwiki Liothen (n=liothen@72.24.191.164)
10:58.59Adysthats where you're wrong fisker
10:59.03Fisker-you say it doesn't make sense to anyone here
10:59.11Adysif you try to make a point accross
10:59.21Adysyou try and not make it nonsense to your listeners
10:59.28Adysand at that, you fail
10:59.34Fisker-And since i've already excluded us 3 from that discussion your commentary is either 1. directed at the channel as a whole or 2. irrelevant
10:59.46Kirkburn|afkAnyhoo, notwithstanding everything that went afterwards, can we at least agree MS did (maybe still does) bad stuff related to monopolistic practises?
10:59.48Adysyou keep on, i got work to do
10:59.51Fisker-Is your comment irrelevant or directed at #wowwiki?
11:00.02Fisker-Kirkburn|afk that isn't the discussion
11:00.10Fisker-It's irrelevant to agree on
11:00.10AdysIT IS THE DISCUSSION
11:00.11Adysafk
11:00.13Fisker-IT IS NOT
11:01.13Kirkburn|afkI don't think anyone of us really know
11:01.23Fisker-i do
11:01.54Fisker-You can't use windows media player to gain a dominant position on the media player market
11:02.06Fisker-If i'm using windows media player i used it because i wanted to use it
11:02.14Fisker-And then the position is valid for them to have
11:02.38Kirkburn|afkAnd I still cannot agree with that
11:03.06Fisker-Again you can't use google videos or youtube if you don't know they exist
11:03.29Kirkburn|afkQuite apart from the way it was originally worded, which was "MS used it's dominant position in the OS market to push it's way into the Media Player market"
11:03.51Fisker-Perhaps, but again that is why the quote is invalid
11:04.11Fisker-or atleast the ruling is
11:04.46Fisker-They didn't remove Windows Media Player cause it was used to gain a dominant position on the media player market
11:04.53Kirkburn|afkThat you can actually argue against that sentence is why we'll never get anywhere
11:04.53Fisker-They removed it for some other reason we don't know
11:05.02Fisker-You can
11:05.07Fisker-The sentence is speculative and opinionated
11:05.19Fisker-The following documents are evidence and conclusions
11:05.28Fisker-and evidence doesn't follow the ruling
11:05.41Fisker-err the ruling doesn't follow the evidence
11:05.49Kirkburn|afkWell, tbh, I'll take the EU commission's ruling over yours any day
11:06.08Fisker-Doesn't make it any more right
11:06.39Kirkburn|afkOnly when you're defining what's right
11:06.51Fisker-It wasn't right
11:07.12Fisker-Ask yourself, why did they want Windows Media Player removed?
11:07.38Kirkburn|afkBecause it was preventing competition in the media player market
11:07.45Fisker-ok
11:07.55Fisker-But how was it doing that?
11:09.13Fisker-As i said before, if you don't know google videos exist, i can't use it
11:09.21Kirkburn|afk(sec, typing response)
11:09.28Fisker-But if i know google exists, and google shows me google videos then i can use it
11:09.51Kirkburn|afkBecause, by integrating it with Windows (and including all sorts of fancy extras), they made it difficult for anyone to sell a media player for Windows
11:10.05Kirkburn|afkAnd importantly, there was already a media player market
11:10.11Fisker-winnar
11:10.13Fisker-it's you.
11:10.34Fisker-But how does removing windows media player solve that?
11:10.39Kirkburn|afkI've been saying that all along ...
11:11.00Kirkburn|afkUh, by not having WMP as the default?
11:11.12Fisker-That has nothing to do with removing WMP
11:11.15Kirkburn|afkThus making it possible for people to use something in it's place?
11:11.25Fisker-So the "Set programs as default's part" and Windows Media is kept out of this
11:11.41Fisker-They remove WMP, and make it so you still can't change default media players(even though none exists)
11:11.42Kirkburn|afkWindows N would also allow sellers to include a different media player in what they sold to the consumer
11:11.52foxlithttp://code.google.com/soc/2008/google/about.html
11:11.53foxlitslackers
11:13.09Kirkburn|afkYes, I do agree removing WMP wasn't a perfect choice, but there wasn't much else
11:13.14Fisker-Yes there was
11:13.17Fisker-That's exactly it
11:13.24Fisker-They had 2 other changes
11:13.44Fisker-1 was to make it possible(or easier) for other developers to be a default viewer
11:14.15Fisker-The second was to make the windows media format more open/documented so external players could be used for it
11:14.41Fisker-The WMP solution fixes nothing, but makes it more confusing, and in the end probably has no effect as noone will ever buy the N version
11:14.49Fisker-And that is what the evidence found
11:15.17Fisker-The Windows Media format made it difficult for other developers to make alternatives
11:15.24Fisker-as did the "Default programs"-thingy
11:15.34Fisker-But the ruling was "Remove WMP"
11:15.45Kirkburn|afkDude, I'm not talking about any of that. Vent all you want.
11:15.52Fisker-yes you are
11:16.00Fisker-You should be able to get it by now
11:16.09Kirkburn|afkI'm not, I'm only talking about whether or not MS did actually abuse the monopoly
11:16.24Kirkburn|afkSomething you're just not grasping
11:16.28Fisker-You cannot use the product itself to gain a dominant position within the market the product is representing
11:16.31Kirkburn|afkI don't care about what solutions there may or may not have been
11:16.44Fisker-You're not grasping that it was _NEVER_ the discussion
11:16.51Fisker-The WMP ruling was unfair
11:16.55Fisker-that was the discussion
11:17.03Fisker-You've backed out now you can see that i am right
11:17.09Kirkburn|afkOh freaking hell man, you're not the one ruling over what gets discussed, neither of us are
11:17.32Kirkburn|afkNo, you're venting over stuff I'm not going to disagree with, because I don't disagree with it ... I never did
11:17.40Fisker-You did
11:17.51Fisker-You just didn't realize that you were trapped
11:18.05Adysfisker
11:18.05Kirkburn|afkWeeeee-oooooo, Twlight Zone
11:18.06Adysyour head
11:18.09Adysget it out of the sand
11:18.19Fisker-The ruling with removing WMP is incompatible with the quote "MS used it's dominant position in the OS market to push it's way into the Media Player market"
11:18.42Adysand i dont see you as being right
11:18.46Adyskirk doesnt see you as being right
11:18.54Fisker-Doesn't make it wrong
11:18.55Adysif you think we see you as being right, thats fine
11:19.03Fisker-and Kirkburn|afk just said he agreed
11:19.04Adysbut what the fuck are you doing here then?
11:19.08Fisker-or atleast said he didn't disagree
11:19.25Fisker-So actually you are wrong on that part
11:19.32Fisker-Now you're the only one posting "nonsense"
11:19.32Kirkburn|afkI don't disagree with the plain obviousness that Windows N failed
11:19.42AdysFisker-
11:19.46Fisker-That wasn't the discussion either Kirkburn|afk
11:19.47Adysyour head, get it out of the sand.
11:20.18Adysnone of us sees you as being right
11:20.18Fisker-Adys
11:20.20Adyssince the start
11:20.23Fisker-Your head, get out of google's ass
11:20.29Fisker-+it
11:20.30Adysdude when did i mention google
11:20.41Fisker-earlier
11:21.01Kirkburn|afkFisker-, even if you took the unlikely prospect of Adys' head being stuck there ... exactly whose side am I on?
11:21.14Fisker-Why should i care?
11:21.16Kirkburn|afkCan you pigeonhole me too?
11:21.28Fisker-No cause unlike Adys you don't pigeonhole me
11:21.57Adysfisker, you should care because if you keep having arrogant, stupid, non backed up, insulting, pointless and hostile comportment Im getting you out of this chan
11:22.13Adysthis is not a way to get out of the oh so right point you're making
11:22.15Fisker-1. It's not arrogant
11:22.18Fisker-2. It's not stupid
11:22.18Adysbut this has been going on for three hours
11:22.21Fisker-3. It's backed up
11:22.28Fisker-4. You're the one insulting me, i ALWAYS respond in kind
11:22.34Adys[12:20:28] <+Fisker-> Your head, get out of google's ass
11:22.35Fisker-5. pointless indeed
11:22.45Fisker-Yes
11:22.45Kirkburn|afk(I actually think this has been quite interesting as discussions go)
11:22.53Adysits been interesting at first
11:22.58Adysgets boring after a couple of hours
11:23.03Kirkburn|afkTrue
11:23.13Fisker-[11:45:38] <@Adys> youtube was dominant before google acquired it
11:23.22Adysyeah that totally makes me a fanboy
11:23.35Adysand my head is so stuck up their ass i know and relate facts
11:23.37Adys*shrugs*
11:23.44Fisker-http://ec.europa.eu/comm/competition/antitrust/cases/decisions/37792/en.pdf
11:23.47Fisker-= fact
11:23.56Fisker-And you were defending something that wasn't being attacked
11:23.59Fisker-then you = fanboy
11:24.13Kirkburn|afkEven when I quote that you tell me it's not part of the discussion :/
11:24.16AdysIm defending my company when its attacked yes, i was not defending anything
11:24.28Fisker-no Kirkburn|afk that IS infact part of the discussion
11:24.30Adysi was stating youtube was dominant before google acquired it
11:24.45Adyshow the fuck is that defending soul and body a company i got my head stuck in
11:24.57Fisker-But you ignore the MASSIVE AMOUNTS of FINDINGS as opposed to 1 LINE of speculative introduction
11:25.34Kirkburn|afkNo, I just don't bother quote mining
11:25.59Kirkburn|afkI'd rather use the title of a piece, rather than one sentence of it
11:26.22Fisker-I've used more "title of the piece" than you've done
11:27.13Kirkburn|afkYou want me to read all 300 pages ot make sure the bit you quoted from oage 32 encompassed the entire issue?
11:27.31Fisker-i didn't quote anything from page 32
11:27.43Adyslol
11:28.13Kirkburn|afkOh right, so page 32-300?
11:28.55Fisker-nah
11:29.04Fisker-only a couple of pages
11:29.49Kirkburn|afkSee I just don't see how you can say MS didn't use their dominant OS position to stifle competition in the media player market
11:30.00Fisker-They did
11:30.33Fisker-But they didn't use Windows Media Player to do it
11:31.58Kirkburn|afkI would say the important difference between Google/Youtube and Windows/WMP is that you don't have to go to Google, nor pay anything for that ability ... but with Windows, you can't choose to not use Windows (without significant time/cost/trouble).
11:32.43Kirkburn|afkDon't like Google's search? Go somewhere else, one simple click
11:33.21Kirkburn|afkDon't like Window's use of WMP? Well, you could go searching for alternative media players, and hope they cover everything WMP did, or buy a Mac, or take a foray into the world of Linux.
11:33.34Kirkburn|afkNone are that inviting.
11:33.49Fisker-lol
11:34.00Kirkburn|afk(from an impartial PoV, their actual benefits notwithstanding)
11:34.00Fisker-I could've understand if you've used it against Windows vs. Linux
11:34.06Fisker-but using that against windows media player is just stupid
11:34.19Fisker-There are plenty of alternatives available, and they are easily available
11:34.29Kirkburn|afkFrom a time/cost/trouble perspective
11:34.41Fisker-And again being hard to find id why they are built into Windows to begin with
11:35.08Fisker-http://www.google.dk/search?hl=da&q=online+video+web&meta= <-that's how easy it is to find youtube alternatives
11:35.14Kirkburn|afkI'd put it the other way around
11:35.16Fisker-poor us
11:35.42Kirkburn|afkBut you just said they were hard ot find
11:35.49Kirkburn|afksorry, scratch that
11:36.15Adyshttp://www.google.fr/search?q=online+video&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a
11:36.21AdysIm sorry I dont get the same results as you do
11:36.27AdysI dont even see youtube on here.
11:36.49Adysi do see imteaz, veoh, metacafe, aol video, sharkle, tvguide...
11:36.53Kirkburn|afkAlterntive media players are hard to find because WMP has been pushed to dominance
11:37.21Adyshttp://www.pcworld.com/article/id,143517/article.html
11:37.22Adystee hee
11:37.27Adysonly a third? not even half?
11:37.29Fisker-Adys then you're not seeing the same results as us
11:38.05Adysus?
11:38.15Adyssorry, you're blind
11:38.27Fisker-there were only imteaz and veoh on that search result
11:38.27Kirkburn|afkI'd call "video" a better search string btw, why bother using the terms web or online, when you're already online
11:39.03Adysokay lets try video
11:39.05Kirkburn|afkSearch "video" and you'll do much better
11:39.06Adyshttp://www.google.fr/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=com.ubuntu%3Aen-US%3Aunofficial&hs=ATF&q=video&btnG=Search
11:39.15Adysyahoo video comes second
11:39.16Fisker-video is good
11:39.45Adyshow discriminating it doesnt come first
11:39.50Adysparticularly knowing its less used than gvid (virtually the same as yt now)
11:39.57Kirkburn|afkWhat actual competition to WMP is there now?
11:40.00Adysi mean, they should help yahoo vid get more share
11:40.04laurlyare you guys still going on???
11:40.13Fisker-VLC
11:40.13Kirkburn|afklaurly, surely not :P
11:40.14Fisker-MPC
11:40.20Kirkburn|afkMPC is video
11:40.26Kirkburn|afkVLC, does that do music?
11:40.27Fisker-does audio as well
11:40.28laurlyi have been down shoping with a teenager in the time you guys have sit talking...
11:40.32Fisker-just looks ugly
11:40.33Adysyeah vlc does music
11:40.39Adysonly vlc and gom are the real alternative
11:40.53Kirkburn|afklaurly, hehehe
11:40.58Adyshttp://www.mauriziopetrone.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/quality-rater-guidelines-2007.pdf
11:41.00Adyshere is for you
11:41.02foxlitiTunes, you insensitive clods.
11:41.02Kirkburn|afklaurly, it's actualyl been quite interesting
11:41.05Adysgoogle search quality guidelines
11:41.09Fisker-but it's still besides the point
11:41.14Kirkburn|afkfoxlit, hmm, how good is that for video?
11:41.31Adysitunes sucks
11:41.38Adyson windows it sucks in general
11:41.43Adysjust like safari and quicktime
11:41.49foxlitIt _plays_ video.
11:41.51foxlitIncredible, I know
11:42.07Kirkburn|afkHeh, but is it a natural video player?
11:42.15Kirkburn|afk(I don't really know, not being an iTunes user)
11:42.18Adysfor that matter, the gecko 0.1 engine also renders webpages
11:42.32Adysnah itunes has a hard time playing vids
11:42.39Adysapple promotes quicktime for vids
11:42.51Adysand itunes has an embedded qt player afaik to play vids so
11:43.07Kirkburn|afkMy point being that WMP barely has any direct competitors, being the catch-all program that it is, present on all PCs
11:43.35Fisker-Not having any competition isn't Microsoft's fault
11:43.38Kirkburn|afkHowever, there was once a market for such all-singing all-dancing players
11:43.48Kirkburn|afkUntil MS pushed WMP on everyone
11:43.49Fisker-And i'd still say pretty much noone uses WMP
11:43.56laurlywonders if shes loging this...
11:44.01Kirkburn|afkheh
11:44.01Fisker-Atleast not unless they have a codec pack
11:44.07Kirkburn|afkFisker-, techie people, mebbe
11:44.14Kirkburn|afkNot Mr. Joe Public
11:44.32Fisker-and since the codec packs usually has a player then they have taken a choice
11:44.45Fisker-and if that choice was to keep using WMP then that isn't Microsoft's problem
11:45.29Kirkburn|afkThat would be the same reasoning we all got stuck with IE
11:45.40foxlitSo, er, clearly
11:45.50Fisker-?
11:45.52Fisker-how?
11:46.01foxlitFireFox is better than IE -> Firefox gets more popular
11:46.22Fisker-IE > Firefox :P
11:46.24Kirkburn|afkSorry, actually, it wasn't entirely relevant to your point, but then again, neither was your point
11:46.36Kirkburn|afkCodec packs, not used by Joe Public
11:46.41Fisker-They are
11:46.48Fisker-if you want to play DVD's
11:46.55Fisker-WMP doesn't come with DVD playback
11:47.13Kirkburn|afkI'm .... not sure about that
11:47.18Fisker-it doesn't
11:47.28foxlitDepends
11:47.40Fisker-so either you're using one of the many commercial dvd products (usually bundled with your computer), and thus not using WMP, or you're using a free codec(who would pay? :D) which is in a codec pack which usually has a player attached
11:47.41foxlitOEM can bundle the relevant codecs (typically with their own half-baked player)
11:48.08Fisker-Well from Microsoft atleast it's not bundled with a codec
11:48.14Fisker-only vista ultimate has that i believe
11:48.28Kirkburn|afkHmm, Vista Home Premium has DVD playback
11:48.41Kirkburn|afkNot Basic though
11:49.08Fisker-or business
11:49.21Fisker-so home premium and ultimate then
11:49.23Kirkburn|afkRelevancy, please?
11:49.30Kirkburn|afkPremium is the main seller
11:49.37Fisker-I'm not saying it wasn't
11:49.52Fisker-But until Vista you don't have any dvd playback
11:49.58Kirkburn|afkFor XP, did any of those come with it?
11:50.07Fisker-It requires a codec
11:50.11Fisker-http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/player/plugins.aspx#DVDDecoder
11:50.26Kirkburn|afkIn any case, WMP directs you to get DVD plugins
11:50.31Fisker-Yeah
11:50.34Fisker-that's the link above
11:51.21Kirkburn|afkSo, actually the third option of using WMP to play DVDs is actually quite feasible
11:51.35Fisker-You can play dvd's with it
11:51.59Fisker-But the you get a playback program whatever way you go
11:52.35Kirkburn|afkIn any case, I still take issue with your comment "And i'd still say pretty much noone uses WMP"
11:53.17Kirkburn|afkIf that was true, why is there so little direct competition?
11:53.29Fisker-Who says there is?
11:53.36Fisker-Most of the competition works on bundles
11:53.58Fisker-I must say atleast i haven't seen a personal computer without: VLC, MPC or another commercial dvd playback program
11:54.31Kirkburn|afkMine.
11:54.57Fisker-Then you have chosen WMP cause you know the alternatives and you don't want to use them
11:55.31Kirkburn|afkActually, because WMP is good
11:55.56Kirkburn|afkAnd I don't like installing lots of things
11:57.29Kirkburn|afkAnyway, I feel like the discussion is winding down (finally), so I shall take my leave
11:58.13Fisker-I still think you've missed the point
11:58.17Fisker-:P
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12:12.16laurlyhmmm did they give up Fisker-
12:21.02Fisker-Looks like they had problems understanding :<
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12:37.13KlimpenJust a heads up, I think 'Juliexp' is spamming advertisements on Realm pages.
12:37.26Adyslink?
12:37.58Klimpenhttp://www.wowwiki.com/Special:Contributions/Juliexp
12:38.26Adysthanks
12:38.40Klimpen:)
12:44.15KlimpenMmmmm... they appear to be doing more changes.
12:44.27Adys?
12:46.11KlimpenThat Juliexp. I just refreshed their Contributions page and like 10 new entries appeared.
12:46.29Adysno i blocked her
12:46.38KlimpenAh. Coolcool
12:49.04laurlywell thats orignal
12:50.23laurlydo you have to revert them one at a time adys?
12:50.35Adysyeah but i can do it quickly
12:50.41Adysits just a link farm
12:51.41laurlystill annoying
12:51.46Adyskinda ye
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13:55.57Kirkburnbtw, plan is database stuff 2moro
13:58.51KirkburnSo may be readonly for a while
13:59.07pcjnoooooo
13:59.27Kirkburn(also, this is why Blizzard doesn't give specific timeframes)
14:00.46foxlitclearly incompetence :)
14:17.45Kirkburnhttp://www.flockofmullets.com/
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15:44.11DottedKirkburn did i mention i finally found a working driver?
15:49.21Fisker-for what?
15:50.46Dottedmy nvidia failforce 8800gt
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15:54.50Kasoits hard to find a driver for nVidia?
16:06.28Fisker-not really
16:06.33Fisker-but Dotted sucks as usual
16:06.55DottedKaso yes
16:07.24Fisker-If Dotted were a company he would be enron
16:07.54Dottedo'rly
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17:25.57DottedFisker- Boomtown siger Codemasters er på steam =O=O=O=O
17:28.53Fisker-er de også
17:28.59Fisker-med ca. 1 spil
17:30.03Dottedhvilket?
17:30.36Fisker-http://steampowered.com/v/index.php?area=game&AppId=11420&cc=DK
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17:31.42Dottedde skulle tage sig sammen og smide operation flaspoint på steam istedet
17:31.55Fisker-tror du jeg er obvious troll?
17:32.24Fisker-(I.e. kig på artiklens comments igen)
17:32.54Fisker-sygt de ikke tør banne mig
17:33.31Dotted:D
17:34.31Dottedburde egentlig update min signatur
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19:05.09Fisker-btw Dotted
19:05.13Fisker-ham der med klagen er totalt nice
19:05.21Dottedwot?
19:06.59Fisker-http://www.boomtown.net/da_dk/forum/viewtopic.php?id=65532
19:18.51laurlygrumbles about havig to clear ssc
19:23.38pcjgrumbles about servers being down
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19:28.51Gourragrumbles about something
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19:41.19pcjhi dutempete :)
19:43.24DuTempete_hi pcj :P
19:43.30pcj:P
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19:44.44Kaso"wookiee pedia" in google leads to wowwiki on first result
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21:27.04pcjhi dutempete
21:27.07DuTempete_howdy
21:27.31DuTempete_what's the stupid link command again?
21:28.00pcj /msg NickServ LINK CoolGuy CoolGuysPassword
21:28.08DuTempete_that's what I thought...
21:28.31pcjoh
21:28.58DuTempete_oh what?
21:29.34pcjoh, that's what you thought
21:30.23pcjwell that was fun
21:30.35DuTempeteheh... not sure if that did it or not... I didn't get the same messages I remember getting before :P
21:30.41DuTempeteoh, yeah, all kinds
21:31.53DuTempeteSomebody at #wikia is getting a little /kick happy...
21:32.18DuTempeterather snottily threatened to kick me from the channel whilst I was trying to work that out
21:32.36DuTempetenot that I was an angel back... I'm feeling rather touchy today :P
21:33.07DuTempetecould be that I haven't slept in over 24 hours
21:33.14pcj~massage DuTempete
21:33.15infobotACTION gives DuTempete a terribly relaxing full-body massage that puts DuTempete to sleep
21:33.16DuTempeterawrs.
21:33.21DuTempetenooooo
21:33.27DuTempeteI have class in 2.5 hours :(
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21:33.41Krolmorholy crap.
21:33.51DuTempetenaw, nothing holy about it
21:34.01KrolmorI got ganked by what seemed like 3 digits of BR hunters on gurubashi
21:34.09pcj3 digits?
21:34.22Krolmorthey were like a wall *.*
21:34.27DuTempeteyou know... 100+...
21:34.36pcji didn't know a digit was a UOM
21:35.12Krolmorwell.. it can be a measure of fingers ... quantity... thing
21:35.33Krolmorany of you play on a pvp realm?
21:35.34pcjso you had 3 fingers of hunters?
21:35.35DuTempeteooh, I know what made me grumpy
21:35.43pcji play on a pvp realm
21:35.50DuTempetehaving to read this really horrible poetry, and produce constructive criticism for it...
21:35.55pcjouch
21:35.56Krolmoruh no, it was more like DuTempete said, hundreds -.-
21:35.59DuTempeteI also play on a pvp realm
21:36.14Krolmorhmm, which one might I ask?
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21:36.18pcjmaelstrom us
21:36.26DuTempetedrak'thul US
21:36.46KrolmorI'm looking for a pvp one, but failed to get any good recommendation for one
21:36.47DuTempeteand Kirkburn is my pvp nub minion... if that counts for anything
21:36.57DuTempetewhat faction do you play?
21:37.14KrolmorI'd like to play Ally, but it really doesn't matter all that much
21:37.26DuTempeteI'm ally... we're in sore need of more on my server
21:38.05Krolmorand I think you're gonna tell me to roll horde once you see how I play, but hey.. :p
21:38.12DuTempetehehe
21:38.34DuTempetefeel free to look me up on Baberi or Chaeos
21:39.18DuTempeteI only play once or twice a week, atm, though :P
21:39.24Krolmorty :) and please don't beat me up, but I'd most likely roll a hunter
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21:39.34DuTempeteno, that's fine, I like hunters
21:39.51Krolmorhehe
21:39.53DuTempetegreat raid companions, and besides, who am I to talk? I play a warlock :P
21:39.58KrolmorxD
21:41.19KrolmorHmm I'll go there and roll a tiny hunter and take a look around. Ty!
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22:51.10pcjhi dutempete
22:51.33DuTempete_grrr...
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23:25.56Krolmorhmm newb question about Omen: If only I have it, can I see tht threat of my whole party?
23:26.44sacarascnope
23:26.56KrolmorI'd only be able to see my own threat bar, correct?
23:27.08sacarascyup
23:27.34sacarascunless there's a setting i've not found for giving approximate threat readings
23:27.54Krolmoryeah, that's what I was looking for :)
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23:52.17KirkburnVista SP1 is out btw
23:55.15foxlithow very useless :)
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