| 00:41.15 | Kirkburn|afk | Interesting, Blizzard is counter-suing WoWGlider |
| 00:41.25 | Kirkburn|afk | 's creator |
| 00:41.34 | Kirkburn|afk | ( http://www.wowinsider.com/2007/02/23/blizzard-suing-wowglider-creator/ ) |
| 00:44.07 | Zeal | counter? |
| 00:45.00 | Kirkburn|afk | Yep |
| 00:45.27 | Zeal | haha |
| 00:45.35 | Zeal | wtf, what were MDY expecting? |
| 00:46.01 | *** join/#wowwiki Kirkburn (n=Kirkburn@82-32-40-219.cable.ubr06.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 00:46.01 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Kirkburn] by ChanServ |
| 00:46.08 | Kirkburn | Crashed |
| 00:46.20 | Kirkburn | The LFG channel is to return - http://www.wowinsider.com/2007/02/23/lfg-channel-to-return/ |
| 00:47.12 | Zeal | wtf.. |
| 00:47.29 | Zeal | i think the last batch of xp patches fucked things up |
| 00:48.09 | Zeal | the object loader for ie now causes a javascript error, so doesn't even load. |
| 00:48.20 | Zeal | only thing i know that uses it is pdf's |
| 00:48.40 | Zeal | so if i click on a pdf link, i get a dead page and javascript error. |
| 00:49.27 | Zeal | which is annoy, but also a releif in soem ways, because ie doesn't have a dialog to ask if you want to open a pdf or save it and jsut opens it in the browser for you.. ¬_¬ |
| 00:50.41 | Zeal | yay at the LFG news |
| 00:50.45 | Zeal | had me worried at first |
| 00:51.04 | Zeal | but making it so you have to be set to LFG or LFM to use it is great :) |
| 00:55.42 | Kirkburn | aye |
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| 01:11.45 | Zeal | i need to make some foods.. |
| 01:16.04 | Zeal | actually, think i'll call it a night |
| 01:16.18 | Zeal | nn all *throws a whole load of pages at Kirkburn* :p |
| 01:16.25 | Kirkburn | Hah |
| 01:16.46 | Kirkburn | I'm watching Heroes, piss off :P |
| 01:16.59 | zeal | Heros is on!?! |
| 01:17.02 | zeal | channel, now, tell |
| 01:17.04 | zeal | ! |
| 01:17.14 | Kirkburn | Lol, my PC |
| 01:17.21 | zeal | noooo! |
| 01:17.37 | Kirkburn | I'm only on episode 5! |
| 01:17.49 | zeal | watched the first two eps last night, i liked it |
| 01:17.56 | Kirkburn | Cool |
| 01:18.05 | zeal | quality wise it was crap imo, but story was intriguing |
| 01:18.06 | Kirkburn | Hiro is awesome |
| 01:18.33 | zeal | haha, win |
| 01:18.45 | zeal | two episodes on scifi atm :P |
| 01:18.52 | zeal | thoughi missed episode 3 : / |
| 01:19.17 | zeal | ok, well now i'm really off >_>; |
| 01:19.25 | Kirkburn | Night night |
| 01:19.49 | Kirkburn|afk | Same here actually, g'night all! |
| 01:23.42 | Teomyr | night |
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| 02:54.04 | Trae | hey.... I just re-installed Wow from the trial client (I never actually bought the full game at the store) |
| 02:54.15 | Trae | I bought BC |
| 02:54.21 | Trae | (had it a while) |
| 02:54.29 | Trae | and had it installed and all upgraded my account |
| 02:54.36 | Trae | I had a L70 NE Shadowpriest |
| 02:54.48 | Trae | in a fit of sanity, or insanity, I deleted my character today. |
| 02:55.06 | Trae | well, the crack monkey can't resist and I'm re-installing (how sad) |
| 02:55.11 | Trae | my question is this |
| 02:55.19 | Trae | since my account is upgraded to BC |
| 02:55.33 | Trae | do I actually have to install BC? or just upgrade to whatever the latest is |
| 03:08.24 | Tekkub | you revert Belwar's stuff Zeal? |
| 03:56.34 | *** join/#wowwiki Fin (n=Fin@migi.instinct.org) |
| 04:00.58 | Montagg | Tekkub: Looks good to me. |
| 04:01.10 | Tekkub | :P |
| 04:01.45 | Tekkub | what was the test wiki where we had hove tips again? |
| 04:01.47 | Montagg | By the way, posted about some expansion rumor articles in the Pump. You see any of those? Mostly by Whirligig. |
| 04:02.37 | Fin | http://simonveith.de/wowwikitest/ |
| 04:02.57 | Fin | infobot, test wiki is http://simonveith.de/wowwikitest/ |
| 04:03.06 | infobot | Testing wiki is http://simonveith.de/wowwikitest/... PARITY ERROR - SYSTEM HALTED$#$ |
| 04:04.39 | Tekkub | stupid bottard |
| 04:05.21 | Fin | did someone make that happen deliberately? were you asking to make a point about the infobot being here in the first place? |
| 04:06.06 | Fin | CAN YOU REALLY HAVE ENOUGH PARANOIA IN YOUR LIFE? |
| 04:06.17 | Fin | maybe... BUT YOU'LL NEVER KNOW FOR SURE |
| 04:06.42 | Tekkub | I just hate the bot, that's all |
| 04:07.03 | Fin | I think someone should make one for woW |
| 04:07.05 | Fin | +shift |
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| 12:58.01 | Kirkburn|afk | 2.0.10 patch is coming - notes - http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/test-realm-patchnotes.html |
| 13:00.18 | Teomyr | yay, nerf druids! |
| 13:00.28 | Kirkburn|afk | Yay! |
| 13:01.48 | winkiller | anyone tried exalted with Cenarion Expedition? I read that you should only do the zangar quests at revered, which is most probably, 70 already |
| 13:03.46 | Montagg | wtf? Demonic Tactics gives increase crit instead of damage? Boooo. |
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| 13:08.47 | Kirkburn|afk | Depends on the amount of crit Montag |
| 13:09.02 | Kirkburn|afk | Wasn't it +5% dmg? |
| 13:09.06 | sancus | that's a nerf |
| 13:09.17 | Kirkburn|afk | What's the +crit though? |
| 13:09.22 | sancus | same amount |
| 13:09.27 | Montagg | I'm biased because I'm affliction, but generally warlocks like damage > crit. |
| 13:09.39 | Kirkburn|afk | Esp PvE ones |
| 13:09.52 | sancus | the only warlock who it might not be a nerf for is a pure shadowbolt spamming destruction lock |
| 13:10.02 | Montagg | PvP it does get more complex, but I'd still rather have more damage in PvP. |
| 13:10.09 | sancus | for every other build it's a nerf |
| 13:10.15 | sancus | pretty minor one though |
| 13:10.34 | Kirkburn|afk | It'll take me to about 20% crit I think |
| 13:11.04 | Montagg | Demonic Tactics is useful because Demo warlocks do spam shadowbolt, but it's a nerf to your mobility, since you can't, run, and let your pet take your damage. |
| 13:11.14 | Montagg | ^-, |
| 13:23.12 | Kirkburn|afk | It's only 5% :) |
| 13:40.27 | Montagg | Kirkburn|afk: Right, but if you're demo/afflic, it's a completely useless talent. |
| 13:40.43 | Montagg | Where as, damage was useful to both. |
| 13:42.25 | Kirkburn|afk | Well, it's not a complete loss of 5% damage |
| 13:43.30 | Montagg | Shit, you'll have to tell me later. Gonna be late to a shoot. Later fellas! |
| 13:43.45 | Kirkburn|afk | See ya |
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| 14:58.46 | Zeal | lo all |
| 14:59.05 | Kirkburn|afk | Sad news - http://www.wowwiki.com/User_talk:Voidvector#Bot_requests |
| 15:06.09 | Zeal | "Ruby Slippers" now properly have a cast time. <-- haha |
| 15:06.50 | Zeal | anyways. druids got a major nerfing tbh :( |
| 15:07.03 | Zeal | warriors got all buffs for once.. lol |
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| 15:12.33 | Teomyr | hi zeal |
| 15:13.18 | Zeal | lame, hallowed wand can't be applied in combat :) |
| 15:13.20 | Zeal | *:( |
| 15:13.24 | Zeal | hey Teomyr |
| 15:16.28 | Teomyr | zeal, look! http://vs157092.vserver.de/wow/mapdbc2.jpg |
| 15:16.43 | Teomyr | new feature |
| 15:17.04 | Zeal | ffs.. thott has the spell but not the item, alla doesn't even have a tooltip, and wowhead doesn't have the all the info. |
| 15:17.40 | Zeal | UInt32, single, double? |
| 15:17.43 | Teomyr | double-clicking a cell brings up this data inspector, which shows what would result if the field were interpreted as this data type |
| 15:17.54 | Teomyr | yes, those are the different data types, more to come |
| 15:18.07 | Zeal | aye, i got that part. just don't know those data types :p |
| 15:18.11 | Teomyr | 32 bit integer, 32 bit unsigned integer etc |
| 15:18.33 | Zeal | wouldn't it be better to have integer = unsigned and then a signed interger. |
| 15:19.24 | Zeal | majority of the time, it's unsigned, and i'm used to seeing unsigned integers just being written as integer. |
| 15:19.48 | Zeal | anyone know of an item with duration on it? |
| 15:20.07 | Teomyr | halloween masks |
| 15:20.38 | Teomyr | i'll stick with the names that the .net framework uses. that makes the code a bit more simple |
| 15:21.07 | Zeal | and harder to understand for the end user ') |
| 15:21.11 | Zeal | *;) |
| 15:21.20 | Teomyr | well, the end user must know about this difference :P |
| 15:21.26 | Zeal | why the hell does .net name them some backwardsly.. stupid |
| 15:21.46 | Zeal | yeah, but normally integer = unsigned integer. not the other way around. |
| 15:22.47 | Zeal | what are the halloween mask's called? |
| 15:22.48 | Teomyr | microsoft doesn't agree with you! |
| 15:22.54 | Teomyr | Flimsy ... Mask |
| 15:23.07 | Zeal | well thottbot fails then |
| 15:23.13 | Zeal | apprently doesn't have any of them |
| 15:24.14 | Teomyr | wtf |
| 15:24.20 | Teomyr | you're right oO |
| 15:24.25 | Zeal | yeah, it does have them |
| 15:24.29 | Zeal | thott's search is fubar |
| 15:25.08 | Zeal | none of the sites list the duration.. heh |
| 15:25.44 | Zeal | so.. anyone know where the duration goes in the order of tooltip attributes? :P |
| 15:28.28 | Teomyr | don't know :/ |
| 15:31.52 | Zeal | slow down fyi |
| 15:33.54 | Teomyr | note to self: don't try to auto-size the columns when editing Spell.dbc again |
| 15:36.35 | Zeal | haha |
| 15:36.41 | Zeal | yes, that's what happened to me |
| 15:36.57 | Zeal | please make an "auto-size all" option ;) |
| 15:37.11 | Teomyr | :D |
| 15:37.23 | Zeal | accidentally clicking on it and having it sort was a bitch :P |
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| 16:26.07 | Zeal | btw, yes i did revert all of that vandal's edits last night Tekkub, i came back on after i ate, saw it, so thought i may as well incase everyone was asleep :P |
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| 16:29.05 | Zeal | happy fun table.. lol. looks ugly imo, but handy |
| 16:33.36 | Tekkub | style isn't too relevant ATM |
| 16:33.44 | Tekkub | it's getting info in a much nicer format |
| 16:34.04 | Tekkub | a page of "from blah to blah" sections with the same info is crap |
| 16:34.31 | Tekkub | lil table give you a nice quick glance what your options are across the whole rep spectrum |
| 16:39.44 | Zeal | well i wouldn't have it where you have it |
| 16:39.45 | Zeal | but meh |
| 16:39.51 | Zeal | i don't really care anymore |
| 16:39.55 | Kirkburn|afk | Wow, my gold-seller report was answered in under a minute |
| 16:40.04 | Zeal | hehe, nice |
| 16:40.13 | Zeal | EU support is win atm it seems :P |
| 16:40.32 | Kirkburn|afk | Yeah, they must have caught up with all the tickets atm |
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| 17:36.27 | Zeal | bbs |
| 17:37.03 | zeal | Kirkburn|afk, i think i'm treading dangerous water on WoW Radio ;) |
| 17:37.19 | Kirkburn|afk | OooH? |
| 17:37.25 | zeal | if you check out the lore topic, you'll probably see what i mean |
| 17:37.30 | Kirkburn|afk | Linkage |
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| 17:37.48 | zeal | and my memory as usually is failing me, but i think a post i made linking to wowwiki got deleted. |
| 17:38.15 | zeal | http://www.wcradio.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4811&st=0&gopid=52459&#entry52459 |
| 17:38.51 | zeal | probably could have added truth to that too, lol |
| 17:39.05 | zeal | considering she lied to me, and msot of what she's said is a lie. |
| 17:39.14 | zeal | anyways, shower. bbs |
| 17:40.12 | Kirkburn|afk | Wait, it doesn't explain why she doesn't like WoWWiki on that post |
| 17:42.08 | Kirkburn|afk | ah, nvm, it's pointless arguing with her |
| 17:42.51 | Kirkburn|afk | (damned if you do, damned if you don't seems to be the attitude I get from such people) |
| 17:48.51 | Kirkburn|afk | I'm playing a huntar belf now :) |
| 17:58.20 | Kirkburn|afk | Yeah well I hate you too |
| 18:02.00 | Kirkburn|afk | zeal, good response on the Deathwing thing - I'm surprised no-one else had actually bothered looking up the info |
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| 18:18.54 | Fayat | hi all :D |
| 18:19.23 | Fayat | could someone help me please? I have a question related to pnj interaction |
| 18:21.52 | Fayat | when I click on a bg pnj, I would know if it's possible to queue on a bg without click on the dialog |
| 18:23.27 | Fayat | There is still a lot of people afk on the pnj, and some times I must select it with /target "Name" but I can't queue to bg cause i can't speak to hime |
| 18:28.55 | Teomyr | you can press v, for example |
| 18:29.37 | Teomyr | then you will see its health bar and can right click that ;) |
| 18:29.55 | Fayat | ah thanks ^^ |
| 18:30.11 | Fayat | but I'd make a macro too |
| 18:30.23 | Fayat | so when it's alterac night |
| 18:30.41 | Teomyr | i don't think that works. you can't interact with NPCs by script commands |
| 18:30.49 | Fayat | argh damn |
| 18:30.55 | Fayat | I saw some api |
| 18:30.58 | Teomyr | by the way, pnj = npc in english ;) |
| 18:31.05 | Fayat | like JoinBattlefield(index,joinAs) |
| 18:31.12 | Fayat | excuse me ;) |
| 18:31.18 | Teomyr | yes, but that requires you to speak to the battle master first |
| 18:31.28 | Fayat | arf oki thks |
| 18:31.41 | Fayat | damn it seems i must click ^^ |
| 18:32.29 | Teomyr | correct ^^ |
| 18:34.13 | Fayat | nerf :p |
| 18:35.06 | Fayat | or i could code something to retrieve the color of the pnj and click on it but it's forbiden :( |
| 18:56.48 | zeal | lol, i thought you were talking about png's first :p |
| 18:56.58 | zeal | ty for clearing that up Teomyr ;) |
| 18:57.12 | zeal | Kirkburn|afk, yeah, damned if you do, damned if you don't ;) |
| 18:57.16 | zeal | and ty |
| 18:57.22 | zeal | (about deathwing |
| 18:57.24 | zeal | *) |
| 18:57.30 | zeal | off out now, bbl |
| 18:57.37 | Kirkburn|afk | See ya l8r |
| 18:57.41 | Teomyr | xD |
| 18:57.51 | zeal | i really need to write my own away system again, lost my old one.. |
| 18:57.52 | Teomyr | btw, localized fields (almost) working! |
| 18:58.04 | zeal | hm? |
| 18:58.13 | zeal | how do they work exactly? |
| 18:58.18 | zeal | i didn't really understand |
| 18:59.05 | Teomyr | they're like "normal" string fields |
| 18:59.22 | zeal | they're offsets right? |
| 18:59.25 | Teomyr | yes |
| 18:59.33 | zeal | except they're all null atm :s |
| 18:59.46 | zeal | what about the bitmask that follows them? |
| 18:59.52 | Teomyr | localized string fields contain 8 offsets |
| 18:59.58 | Teomyr | one for each locale |
| 19:00.07 | Teomyr | though only one of them is set :S |
| 19:00.16 | Teomyr | i have no idea what the bitmask does |
| 19:00.20 | zeal | the first is a base, not an offset i thought |
| 19:00.31 | Teomyr | the first is for enGB and enUS |
| 19:00.46 | Teomyr | then for krKR, frFR, deDE etc. |
| 19:01.12 | zeal | base, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, bitmask is how the site shows it. which is probably wrong under what you're saying. |
| 19:01.31 | zeal | should be 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, bitmask |
| 19:01.44 | zeal | which makes none of the offsets.. |
| 19:01.51 | zeal | they're all direct |
| 19:01.54 | zeal | *them |
| 19:02.30 | Teomyr | :D |
| 19:02.40 | Teomyr | i don't get what you mean |
| 19:02.58 | Teomyr | a localized field has 8 "pointers" to an offset in the string block |
| 19:03.21 | Teomyr | but only one of them is set at a time, depending on which locale |
| 19:03.40 | Teomyr | i assume they get nulled out as the wow release is built |
| 19:05.46 | Teomyr | http://vs157092.vserver.de/wow/mapdbc3.png |
| 19:06.14 | zeal | well it could be the fact the DBC files are set in langauge packs ;) |
| 19:06.20 | zeal | and i only have GB |
| 19:06.21 | zeal | lol |
| 19:06.23 | Teomyr | yes |
| 19:06.32 | Teomyr | what you see on the screen is from a deDE one |
| 19:06.35 | zeal | i don't follow your use of the term offset tbh |
| 19:06.48 | zeal | but probably because i don't understand the string block |
| 19:07.23 | Teomyr | to me: offset = "distance" to a certain position in the file, in bytes |
| 19:08.00 | Teomyr | with position being the beginning of the string block, the localized fields specify offsets at which each string starts |
| 19:08.02 | zeal | but basically, i'm seeing 1-8 are pointers (numbers) to retrive the value from the string block. what the site currently implies, is name (1) is a base pointer, 1-7 (2-8) are offsets to be applied to name (1) to get a different value. |
| 19:08.26 | Teomyr | where does it say that? |
| 19:13.04 | zeal | on the main wow DBC cat |
| 19:13.18 | zeal | and how it does it on each dbc page that has a string |
| 19:13.46 | zeal | it uses RefName for 1 and the rest are jsut marked as localization strings (including the bitmask |
| 19:13.48 | zeal | *) |
| 19:14.04 | zeal | their list does 1-7 |
| 19:14.06 | zeal | no 8 |
| 19:14.19 | Teomyr | their list does 0-7 |
| 19:14.24 | Teomyr | that's a difference ^^ |
| 19:14.32 | zeal | oh? |
| 19:15.54 | zeal | in which case they mark it incorrectly |
| 19:16.28 | Teomyr | its a bit confusing |
| 19:16.30 | zeal | RefName should be included in the localization list when they apply it to a DBC, or they should actually show the localization correctly |
| 19:16.33 | zeal | indeed it is :p |
| 19:16.36 | Teomyr | ^^ |
| 19:16.37 | zeal | so is the term offset |
| 19:16.48 | zeal | and +1-8 O_o |
| 19:17.20 | zeal | thank god for you huh? |
| 19:17.20 | zeal | lol |
| 19:17.20 | Teomyr | that one doesn't include enGB/enUS |
| 19:17.20 | Teomyr | xD |
| 19:17.22 | Teomyr | at least i got it working in my viewer ^^ |
| 19:17.31 | zeal | aye, lol |
| 19:17.56 | zeal | the inspect idea is nice btw, wonderinf if you plan to work on a auto-detect too? |
| 19:18.22 | zeal | DBC Tool's one isn't that good at knowing when to use binary, how many bytes and signed integers. |
| 19:18.39 | zeal | and, and also think up a way to do a lookup on a bitmask ;) |
| 19:18.46 | zeal | that's a toughy, lol |
| 19:19.05 | Teomyr | first i'd have to understand them, lol |
| 19:19.09 | zeal | lol |
| 19:19.22 | zeal | i spent most of yesterday doing that |
| 19:19.40 | Teomyr | this is what it looks like if you collapse the fields: http://vs157092.vserver.de/wow/mapdbc4.png |
| 19:19.48 | zeal | basically 0101 looking up on factions for example would be faction 2 and faction 4 |
| 19:20.03 | Teomyr | aah |
| 19:20.32 | zeal | nice |
| 19:20.54 | zeal | all i can think is returning all bitmask matching results seperated by a pipe or something |
| 19:21.25 | zeal | eg. Alliance|Horde |
| 19:21.47 | zeal | anyways, gotta go now. bbl :) |
| 19:21.55 | Teomyr | cya ;) |
| 19:28.24 | *** join/#wowwiki Hobinheim|work (n=Hobinhei@c-69-142-120-32.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) |
| 19:52.44 | *** join/#wowwiki Sky2042 (n=rawsonat@c-24-21-36-57.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 19:52.50 | Sky2042 | morning all |
| 20:00.38 | Teomyr | hi |
| 20:03.17 | *** join/#wowwiki Montag_ (i=Montag@buic010-e1101-dhcp120.bu.edu) |
| 20:10.56 | *** join/#wowwiki Fayat (n=Fayat@ASte-Genev-Bois-152-1-19-141.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 20:32.00 | Teomyr | VIDEO: [mpg1] 0x0 0bpp 90000.000 fps 0.0 kbps ( 0.0 kbyte/s) |
| 20:32.12 | Teomyr | uhm... yeah |
| 20:32.28 | Teomyr | 90000 fps, why not |
| 20:35.08 | *** join/#wowwiki nemppu- (i=nemppu@a91-152-183-219.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 20:41.13 | *** join/#wowwiki dok3Dal (n=dok@AStrasbourg-251-1-105-141.w90-26.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 20:43.56 | Kirkburn|afk | Some Vista driver news from nVidia, good to see they're being open - http://www.nvidia.com/object/vista_driver_news_022207.html |
| 20:44.10 | Kirkburn|afk | One of the bugs they say they're looking at is "World of Warcraft has low framerates." |
| 20:44.29 | winkiller | anyone knows when exactly you get the usual "honored" discoutn for flying mounts? |
| 20:46.30 | Kirkburn|afk | You can't |
| 20:46.41 | Kirkburn|afk | They're neutral trainers :) |
| 20:47.03 | winkiller | I heard from people that they had it cheaper |
| 20:54.06 | Teomyr | me want HDTV *whine* |
| 20:55.17 | Montag_ | Grah! Why do the Crypt Stalkers hurt more than any other mob of their level. |
| 20:55.58 | Montag_ | They send out these unkillable spiders that hit you once and die, and they hurt like a bitch. |
| 21:28.54 | *** join/#wowwiki Bagginsww (n=Valiento@adsl-69-226-99-154.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net) |
| 21:29.01 | Bagginsww | I really like LOTR online. |
| 21:29.25 | Bagginsww | I like how they managed to fit in a way for the world to progress |
| 21:29.51 | Bagginsww | If a town is destroyed through the course of your quests it remains destroyed |
| 21:30.33 | Bagginsww | you just end up loading a version of the world where things have progressed, rather than having access to the world before the event. |
| 21:31.42 | Bagginsww | *You load into a world where things have progressed after you access an event. |
| 21:32.03 | Kirkburn|afk | Bagginsww, cool |
| 21:32.24 | Bagginsww | I'm defintingly thinking of preordering now heh heh |
| 21:32.34 | Kirkburn|afk | What have you been playing as? |
| 21:32.45 | Kirkburn|afk | Hey, where's your loyalty!? |
| 21:33.18 | Bagginsww | I'll play both |
| 21:33.29 | Bagginsww | oh I messed around one of every race |
| 21:33.42 | Bagginsww | cause there are unique instance events for each race |
| 21:33.48 | Bagginsww | the game has "chapters' |
| 21:34.00 | Bagginsww | each chapter ends with a nice cutscene |
| 21:34.12 | Bagginsww | but ya I'm still going to play WoW |
| 21:34.36 | Bagginsww | I'm going with the lifetime plan for LOTR so I can play it more casually |
| 21:34.51 | Bagginsww | never have to deal with a monthly payment |
| 21:35.25 | Bagginsww | but ya at the end of the "chapters" parts of the world progress. |
| 21:35.44 | Kirkburn|afk | What's "both", I have no idea what the MMO is like :) |
| 21:35.56 | Bagginsww | LOL |
| 21:36.05 | Bagginsww | I got into stress test, :) |
| 21:36.19 | Kirkburn|afk | It's a two faction game? |
| 21:36.30 | Bagginsww | well LOTR plays pretty much like WoW they designed it for castual game in mind, you can solo nearly everything if you ant to |
| 21:36.37 | Bagginsww | single faction |
| 21:36.37 | Kirkburn|afk | That's cool |
| 21:36.55 | Kirkburn|afk | Oh, you play both WoW and LotR |
| 21:37.01 | Bagginsww | I'm going to :) |
| 21:37.03 | Kirkburn|afk | I misinterpreted :) |
| 21:37.09 | Bagginsww | WoW will be my primary game |
| 21:37.12 | Kirkburn|afk | What are the races? |
| 21:37.38 | Bagginsww | but the way they designed LOTR its almost like a single player RPG mixed with MMO |
| 21:37.49 | Bagginsww | there is actual world progression |
| 21:37.57 | Bagginsww | hobbits, elves, dwarves, and humans |
| 21:38.17 | Bagginsww | apparently you can access "monsters" at level 10 for a PVP element |
| 21:38.32 | Bagginsww | basically arena or something. |
| 21:38.48 | Bagginsww | but the main game is essentially Good vs. evil. |
| 21:38.59 | Bagginsww | everyone is on the same side of good. |
| 21:39.24 | Bagginsww | each race has several clans too, so there is some more character creation options |
| 21:39.32 | Bagginsww | each clan represents a race basically. |
| 21:40.07 | Bagginsww | like proudfeet hobbits, or fallowskin hobbits, etc |
| 21:40.08 | Kirkburn|afk | Awesome |
| 21:40.36 | Bagginsww | and its beutiful. Its not based on the movies, but the art style is similar to what was used in the movies. |
| 21:42.02 | Bagginsww | they also have an option of changing your physical build in the character seletion so you can be skinny to muscular and all fatness in between |
| 21:43.56 | Kirkburn|afk | It just has the book license? |
| 21:44.05 | Kirkburn|afk | The strategy games cover both, don't they? |
| 21:44.55 | Kirkburn|afk | I wish WoW had more character customization |
| 21:49.08 | Bagginsww | Ya it has LOTR and Hobbit books licences |
| 21:49.41 | Bagginsww | Dwarves intro story is set about 70 years before the Hobbit :) |
| 21:50.18 | Bagginsww | when GAndalf is putting together the dwarves to go to Bag's end. |
| 21:50.31 | Bagginsww | erm 70 years before LOTR |
| 21:50.35 | Bagginsww | just before the Hobbit |
| 21:51.27 | Bagginsww | Its a cool event |
| 21:51.41 | Bagginsww | you have to work your way through a mine in the blue mountains |
| 21:51.42 | Kirkburn|afk | Cool! |
| 21:51.50 | Bagginsww | and they accidently release a troll |
| 21:51.58 | Bagginsww | Gandalf comes in and defeats it so it doesn't kill you heh |
| 21:52.27 | Bagginsww | I'm in the "return to the blue mountains" act. Which is basically like the noob zone |
| 21:52.53 | Bagginsww | if its anything like the noob zone in hobbit storyline, it'll probably end u being destroyed by the end of the chapter |
| 21:53.15 | Bagginsww | so when I return to it at higher levels it will show the damage. |
| 21:53.42 | Bagginsww | basically you get instanced into these special zones, until you have completed the quests that push the story forward |
| 21:54.07 | Bagginsww | in the future anytime you return to where the zone is located you will be in a seperate instance |
| 21:54.25 | Bagginsww | you can never repeat the old events |
| 21:54.38 | Kirkburn|afk | :D |
| 21:54.44 | Bagginsww | But this makes the game more dynamic :) |
| 21:55.15 | Bagginsww | game even warns you if you get to the end of a quest chain that will modify the world. |
| 21:55.27 | Bagginsww | so you can have a chance to complete all the quests |
| 21:55.41 | Bagginsww | oh ya, and completing all quests in an area, gives you stat bonuses heh |
| 21:56.00 | Bagginsww | like +1 to Exploration |
| 21:56.01 | Bagginsww | LOL |
| 21:56.14 | Bagginsww | so there is an incentive to doing all quests |
| 21:56.36 | Bagginsww | game has a nice quest log that tells you percent of quest syou have completed in an area |
| 21:56.57 | Bagginsww | but not all quests in the area are open until you have progressed the world a bit |
| 21:58.12 | Bagginsww | and so far the quests have been fun, the stories told really well. |
| 21:58.24 | Bagginsww | there are the kind involving "kill so many" blah blah |
| 21:59.01 | Bagginsww | but they usually are no more than 6, and if you have to collect something from them, they drop every time |
| 21:59.01 | Bagginsww | so its not time consuming |
| 21:59.02 | Kirkburn|afk | It's sounding really good! |
| 21:59.14 | Bagginsww | Heh |
| 21:59.59 | Bagginsww | I ran into Prancing Pony with my hobbit character, and saw old Barliman. |
| 22:00.05 | Bagginsww | Down the hall was "STrider" |
| 22:00.34 | Bagginsww | Such a thrill heh heh. |
| 22:01.06 | Bagginsww | I'm guessing that you get involved with the events there and progress the world a bit there. |
| 22:01.20 | Bagginsww | Strider had a quest above his head, but it was grey. |
| 22:01.26 | Bagginsww | I wasn't high enough to get it |
| 22:01.45 | Bagginsww | also one of the rooms says "Can't access this until you complete certain "events" |
| 22:02.06 | Bagginsww | I bet that's the room Hobbits were supposed to have slept in, and the wraths ransacked heh |
| 22:04.38 | Bagginsww | another nice touch is you can talk to nearly every NPC |
| 22:04.45 | Bagginsww | they have a few random comments |
| 22:05.09 | Bagginsww | reminds me of old Japanese style rpgs were you could talk to town's people. |
| 22:16.17 | *** join/#wowwiki limed (n=limed@shell.onid.oregonstate.edu) |
| 22:22.42 | Bagginsww | Ok hobbits and humans share introduction noob area, and elves and dwarves share the other one. |
| 22:28.30 | zeal | Bagginsww |
| 22:28.39 | zeal | question |
| 22:28.51 | zeal | hows grouping working with instanced areas? |
| 22:29.04 | Zeal | back btw :P |
| 22:49.41 | Bagginsww | It seems to be the same way as in WoW |
| 22:49.56 | Bagginsww | however you can also do many of them, "solo" |
| 22:50.40 | Bagginsww | they wanted to make it so that anyone could play it and not need to party up if they don't want to. |
| 22:53.00 | *** join/#wowwiki Sky2042 (n=rawsonat@c-24-21-36-57.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 22:53.15 | Sky2042 | hmmmmmm |
| 22:57.23 | Bagginsww | I'm sure instanced dungeons on the other hand require help. |
| 22:57.23 | Sky2042 | what could be done with this page http://www.wowwiki.com/NoMAAM_Warlock_MC_Guide |
| 22:57.53 | Zeal | yeah, what i mean Bagginsww, if someone has doen the even,t and another hasn't. so one seens pre-event, other seens post, how would it work if they grouped? |
| 22:58.15 | Zeal | they surely can't be instanced in one or the other. |
| 22:58.56 | Zeal | this is the trouble with dynamic world implementations |
| 22:59.46 | Zeal | they're scripted, they exclude players from accessing content (non-instanced worlds), they can't group certain players (instanced worlds) |
| 23:00.10 | Zeal | while being scripted isn't bad, it's nicer to have open ended. |
| 23:00.30 | Zeal | but either way, you run into one of the two other problems |
| 23:01.20 | Zeal | most opt for static worlds or non-instanced worlds. instanced worlds have only really become popular more recently, but i've not seen/heard how they implement dyanmic worlds yet. |
| 23:02.19 | Zeal | guld wars iirc, saves the instance to the group (if grouped) or player (if solo) |
| 23:02.58 | Zeal | so any scrpted dynamics of the world, can be repeated in groups, but not repeated solo |
| 23:17.15 | Bagginsww | Zeal they wouldn't be able to group they would be in different versino of the "world" |
| 23:17.26 | Zeal | there we go then :p |
| 23:17.38 | Zeal | can they meat up in the world where they are are the same state right? |
| 23:17.42 | Zeal | *meet |
| 23:17.44 | Bagginsww | ya |
| 23:17.52 | Bagginsww | or sections of the world that are in the same state |
| 23:18.20 | Zeal | that's ok then, the negative of that though is it seperates the users from interacting : / |
| 23:18.36 | Zeal | but it's probably the best solution imo |
| 23:18.43 | Bagginsww | most of these story events are meant for one person anyways |
| 23:18.52 | Zeal | aye, saw you mention |
| 23:19.21 | Bagginsww | but unlike WOW the world is split into different areas with load screens |
| 23:19.56 | Bagginsww | The shire for example is one area. |
| 23:20.02 | Bagginsww | Breeland is next to it |
| 23:20.07 | Zeal | still, i'd rather have an open ended world, but implementing that wiouth problem 1 is soemthing i've not seen resolved. Open ended doesn't work for a franchise like Warcraft though, so it'll never happen anyways :P |
| 23:20.30 | Bagginsww | I like to see progression though, LOL |
| 23:20.33 | Zeal | Bagginsww, wow is like that, just not on the same zone level :p |
| 23:20.58 | Bagginsww | well WoW doesn't have load screens between zones. This game has it between every zone |
| 23:21.22 | Zeal | loading just means a map switch, while most of wow is on 3 main maps :p |
| 23:22.04 | Zeal | LotRO puts the zones on seperate maps (like how WC3 campaigns work), while because wow doesn't need to, only puts isntances and continents on maps |
| 23:22.08 | Bagginsww | well yes, and its a map switch to every area |
| 23:22.25 | Bagginsww | this way individual maps can "evolve" |
| 23:22.29 | Zeal | aye |
| 23:22.42 | Zeal | but only scriptively ;) |
| 23:22.52 | Bagginsww | physically |
| 23:23.07 | Bagginsww | If you were in a town, and it burns down |
| 23:23.15 | Bagginsww | next time you return to that area, its burned down |
| 23:23.19 | Zeal | but is the burn down scripted? |
| 23:23.43 | Bagginsww | it was done in its own isntance, you fight your way through the burning town |
| 23:23.55 | Bagginsww | next time you see the town its just a pile of ashes |
| 23:24.06 | *** join/#wowwiki karat (n=hoka@ip70-187-179-143.oc.oc.cox.net) |
| 23:24.15 | Bagginsww | so basically there is three versions of the same town |
| 23:24.19 | Bagginsww | in their own instances |
| 23:24.27 | Zeal | yeah, but are you the reason for it burning down, did you make it burn down, did you have the choice of have it pillaged instead? :P |
| 23:24.37 | Bagginsww | it was pillaged |
| 23:24.39 | Zeal | *having |
| 23:24.41 | Zeal | rofl |
| 23:24.42 | Bagginsww | its part of the story |
| 23:24.46 | Zeal | well hopefully you get my point |
| 23:25.03 | Bagginsww | There is no way you can physically change the world LOL |
| 23:25.07 | Zeal | it's a scripted event. |
| 23:25.08 | Bagginsww | it has to be figured into the story |
| 23:25.10 | Zeal | aye |
| 23:25.23 | Bagginsww | its kind of different than traditiona term of "scripted event" though |
| 23:25.26 | Zeal | thats the problem faced with many games.. |
| 23:25.36 | Bagginsww | since they are three seperate "levels" |
| 23:25.59 | Bagginsww | "noob" zoe where humans and hobbits level up to like level 5-6 |
| 23:25.59 | Zeal | if you have a story based franchise, you can't have dynamic open ended events, despite thme for making better gameplay and a more complex and diverse game. |
| 23:26.12 | Bagginsww | then a "instanced dungoen" where the town is on fire |
| 23:26.27 | Zeal | *them making for |
| 23:26.29 | Bagginsww | and later return to the location, after the fact |
| 23:26.49 | Bagginsww | not only that the game is following the LOTR story |
| 23:27.11 | Zeal | problem is Bagginsww, all zones can only be done once. after that, sure you can screw around in the outcome, but that's it. were as wow, it resets. |
| 23:27.15 | Bagginsww | you are like a side character that occasionally runs into the fellowship |
| 23:27.35 | Bagginsww | and that Zeal is new for a MMO |
| 23:27.42 | Bagginsww | most MMOs everythign resets |
| 23:27.51 | Bagginsww | and people get tired of it, cause they want to see the world evolve |
| 23:27.56 | Zeal | Bagginsww, that problem is, resets are desirable |
| 23:28.20 | Bagginsww | why? |
| 23:28.32 | Zeal | if a world evolves and then stops, that's it. you can never do it again, the content can't be repeated. it's one use, one experience |
| 23:28.34 | Bagginsww | Most people complain about it |
| 23:28.52 | Bagginsww | ya well the same can be said for quests, I can't repeat a quest after I finish it |
| 23:28.57 | Zeal | wow, thankfully, resets, so you can repeat content, experience how diverse the content can be and try it different ways each time. |
| 23:29.05 | Bagginsww | not really |
| 23:29.07 | Zeal | aye Bagginsww, you can't |
| 23:29.27 | Bagginsww | dungeons are repeatable in the game, just not the "events" |
| 23:29.40 | Bagginsww | events are essentially fancy quest line |
| 23:29.51 | Zeal | but would you want to repeat a quest? they're not dynamic, and they can't evolve with your character period, where as an instance can last you a fair few tries. |
| 23:29.55 | Bagginsww | with pretty graphics, and scripted material |
| 23:30.08 | Zeal | i see |
| 23:30.15 | Zeal | that seems rather silly to me |
| 23:30.28 | *** join/#wowwiki tequini (n=whtknite@wsip-24-248-9-162.br.br.cox.net) |
| 23:30.29 | Zeal | an evolving world, with static parts |
| 23:30.43 | Zeal | oh well. |
| 23:30.54 | Bagginsww | It basically tied in what people like about single-player experiences in games into the MMO setting |
| 23:31.08 | Bagginsww | previewers love it |
| 23:31.17 | Zeal | yeah, but evne in single player, i can go back and play it again ;) |
| 23:31.24 | Zeal | so that doesn;t pan out |
| 23:31.33 | Bagginsww | you can only do it again if you "reset the game" |
| 23:31.34 | Zeal | there should be an ability to repeat |
| 23:31.44 | Zeal | single player doesn't have a reset |
| 23:31.51 | Bagginsww | ya its called "reroll" |
| 23:31.56 | Zeal | you can play it where and when you want, out of requence |
| 23:31.59 | Zeal | rofl Bagginsww |
| 23:32.09 | Bagginsww | most single player rpgs do not let you repeat content |
| 23:32.15 | Bagginsww | when you kill a boss that boss is dead |
| 23:32.27 | Zeal | hardly |
| 23:32.33 | Zeal | its rather evenly split |
| 23:32.42 | Zeal | possibly even more allow repeat |
| 23:32.42 | Bagginsww | you haven't played final fantasy have you? |
| 23:32.47 | Zeal | no, never |
| 23:32.50 | Bagginsww | or most japanese rpg |
| 23:32.52 | Zeal | never liked it |
| 23:32.58 | Bagginsww | most do not let you "repeat" quests |
| 23:33.02 | Zeal | played several jap rpgs, yes. |
| 23:33.04 | Bagginsww | once you do it you did it |
| 23:33.15 | Bagginsww | all that you can do is progress the story and find the next boss |
| 23:33.18 | Zeal | the oesn i've played could be repeated |
| 23:33.23 | Zeal | not all, but most. |
| 23:33.25 | Bagginsww | there are very few that are that way |
| 23:33.40 | Zeal | nah, disaggree |
| 23:34.03 | Zeal | some that mix and match too |
| 23:34.08 | Bagginsww | I've played hundreds of RPGS and most of them do not let you repeat content |
| 23:34.21 | Zeal | good for you.. |
| 23:34.50 | Bagginsww | only way to "repeat" content is ot "restart the entire game" |
| 23:34.50 | Zeal | anyways, you're comparing the undesirable to the undesirable and justifying it as desirable |
| 23:35.01 | Bagginsww | its undesirable to you, fine |
| 23:35.10 | Bagginsww | but alot of people disagree |
| 23:35.17 | Zeal | what, it's desriable to you that you can't repeat? |
| 23:35.30 | Bagginsww | Its desirable to me to have games that progress |
| 23:35.31 | Zeal | that you experience once, or have to restart |
| 23:35.47 | Bagginsww | that if I return to an area, I can see an advancement to that area |
| 23:35.48 | Zeal | i want progression, but i want the ability to go back and progress again |
| 23:35.52 | Bagginsww | enemies might become more difficult etc |
| 23:36.05 | Bagginsww | new quests in the area |
| 23:36.08 | Bagginsww | new people |
| 23:36.21 | Zeal | Bagginsww, after you've advanced the area once, that's it, you can't advance it past what's scripted, that's a very poor argument. |
| 23:36.31 | Zeal | you're then back to repeating it |
| 23:36.45 | Bagginsww | nope there is more than one way to advance area |
| 23:36.59 | Bagginsww | if they have a new quest line there to advance the area, then it will open up into yet another version of that area |
| 23:37.18 | Zeal | back to problem 2 then, you prevent grouping with players that have prgoressed differently |
| 23:37.30 | Bagginsww | Its kind of hte final fantasy, "world of ruin" vs. world of calm |
| 23:37.52 | Bagginsww | those quest lines are mandatory anyways |
| 23:38.01 | Bagginsww | you can 't unlock new areas without doing them |
| 23:38.13 | Zeal | problem 2 being the worst of all, as it essentially no longer makes it an mmo, it's an SP/Co-Op with graphical chat room.. |
| 23:38.56 | Zeal | basically, it's a step back. |
| 23:39.10 | Bagginsww | it mainly effects the players in the noob zone though |
| 23:39.49 | Bagginsww | I havne't seen how it effects high end though |
| 23:40.14 | Bagginsww | I was able to reach like 4 zones after the introduction zones |
| 23:40.23 | Bagginsww | which was like a quarter of the world |
| 23:40.38 | Zeal | if i select progression a, and then do a1, and other people do b, c, thne ,c2 ,b5 or soemthing stupid, hardly anyone can play with anyone else in that zone, and put that across all instanced zones, and you've lost the MMO elements. welcome to guild wars -90000 :p |
| 23:40.39 | Bagginsww | only thing prevented me from walkign farther was levels of the monsters |
| 23:41.40 | Bagginsww | "dungeons" are repeatable events as far as iknow |
| 23:41.51 | Zeal | aye |
| 23:42.04 | Zeal | so you have a multiplayer element. too not MMO :p |
| 23:42.08 | Zeal | *still not |
| 23:42.32 | Bagginsww | Its technically massively multiplayer by definition though, I see hundreds of people in the same room :p |
| 23:42.46 | Zeal | i see hundreds of people on irc.. |
| 23:42.55 | Bagginsww | but that's not playable |
| 23:42.58 | Bagginsww | its not a game |
| 23:43.23 | Zeal | fine, i can see hundreds of players in a battlenet chat room.. |
| 23:43.31 | Zeal | that's part of the game's content |
| 23:43.35 | Zeal | doesn't make it an mmo |
| 23:43.52 | Bagginsww | but not the part wher eyou run around and interact with other people and try to get monsterts before they get yours :p |
| 23:43.59 | Zeal | that you see them represented in 3D makes no difference |
| 23:44.22 | Zeal | Bagginsww, those part's arn't MMO |
| 23:44.25 | Bagginsww | MMO< just stands for massively multiplayer online. |
| 23:44.38 | Zeal | they're at best, SP, Co-Op or MP |
| 23:44.41 | Zeal | yes |
| 23:44.47 | Zeal | and it's no longer massively |
| 23:45.09 | Bagginsww | muiltipllayer to "ploy with other people", "massively" to have hundreds of people in the same area. "online" to be online |
| 23:45.29 | Zeal | by that definition WC£ is an mmo |
| 23:45.30 | Bagginsww | that's dictionary definition :p... Sure I understand you have your own "interpretation" |
| 23:45.32 | Zeal | *wc3 |
| 23:45.46 | Zeal | not the definition i'm question Bagginsww |
| 23:45.47 | Bagginsww | WC# only 8 player at the most |
| 23:45.56 | Zeal | it's your interpretation of applying it. |
| 23:46.04 | Zeal | Bagginsww, you're not playing! |
| 23:46.14 | Zeal | it's a graphical chat room |
| 23:46.15 | Zeal | that's it |
| 23:46.57 | Bagginsww | Its not my definition :p, its the one the game industry uses :p |
| 23:47.23 | Zeal | i can interact, send things, chat etc in battlenet, that it's a a 3D instead of 2D representation, makes no difference, you're still not playing the content of the game with those people. |
| 23:47.31 | Zeal | no it's not Bagginsww |
| 23:47.52 | Zeal | it's like how people claim all thing's with character progression are RPGs |
| 23:47.57 | Zeal | when they aren't |
| 23:48.09 | Bagginsww | yes it is, so far every reviewer/previewer is using that definition :p |
| 23:48.10 | Zeal | character progression is just one element of an RPG. |
| 23:48.17 | Zeal | and they'd be wrong Bagginsww |
| 23:48.23 | Bagginsww | wrong with your view |
| 23:48.25 | Zeal | MMO is the buzz word |
| 23:48.49 | Zeal | Bagginsww, if you can refute my accusation then try, because so far you haven't/can't |
| 23:49.21 | Bagginsww | You can't refute "opinions" |
| 23:49.31 | Bagginsww | opinions are neither right nor wrong... |
| 23:49.37 | Zeal | it's not an opinion |
| 23:49.55 | Bagginsww | ok then its up to you to post proof, if its "fact" |
| 23:49.59 | Bagginsww | cite your source |
| 23:50.11 | Zeal | i have jsut told you why |
| 23:50.15 | Zeal | no opinions involved |
| 23:50.24 | Zeal | there is no MMO element to LotRo |
| 23:50.30 | Zeal | it's jsut being marketed as such |
| 23:50.50 | Bagginsww | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_game |
| 23:51.00 | Zeal | i knwo the definition |
| 23:51.04 | Zeal | got nothing to do with it |
| 23:51.15 | Zeal | it's being applied where it shouldn't |
| 23:51.15 | Bagginsww | A Massively Multiplayer Online Game (MMOG or MMO) is a computer game which is capable of supporting hundreds or thousands of players simultaneously, and is played on the Internet. |
| 23:51.26 | Bagginsww | that's like the definition every link I've found uses :p |
| 23:51.55 | Bagginsww | So its your opinion its not being used right |
| 23:52.02 | Bagginsww | unless you can prove its a fact |
| 23:52.41 | Zeal | omfg |
| 23:52.48 | Zeal | Bagginsww, there is no argument over definitions |
| 23:52.54 | Zeal | stop citing definitions |
| 23:53.39 | Bagginsww | Well you told me "my definition is wrong" , or "that people who use that definition are wrong", etc. but you ahven't cited how they are wrong. |
| 23:53.59 | Zeal | argh!!!! >_< |
| 23:54.00 | Bagginsww | in other words we are just argueing over your opinion... |
| 23:54.05 | Zeal | i never said such a thing |
| 23:54.07 | Bagginsww | I can't change your opinio |
| 23:54.12 | Bagginsww | not even going to try |
| 23:54.19 | *** join/#wowwiki Bagginsww (n=Valiento@adsl-69-226-99-154.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net) |
| 23:54.55 | Bagginsww | "never said such a thing?" You said, "And they'd be wrong" |
| 23:56.28 | Zeal | i said you and others are applying it incorrectly. there is nothing wrong with the definition. You're applying MMO to 3D chat rooms, using what is a rather vague definition. If you want to call 3d chat rooms an MMO, then fine. But you're saying they aren't, yet they are, so you're very clearly wrong. |
| 23:56.54 | Bagginsww | its not a 3-d chat room, since you do infact play the game :p |
| 23:56.59 | Bagginsww | with other people |
| 23:57.05 | Bagginsww | and kill things with other people |
| 23:57.21 | Bagginsww | if it was just a chat room there would be not playable elmeents |
| 23:58.13 | Zeal | no, baggins. You interact in 3D with the MMO userbase. You play the game SP, Co-Op or MP. |
| 23:58.28 | Zeal | here's ap erfect example of what i'm talking about.. "Guild Wars has been called an MMORPG, but most of its gameplay involves small groups of players in private areas. The game's developer prefers the term "competitive online role-playing game"." |
| 23:58.34 | Zeal | *a perfect |
| 23:59.12 | Zeal | even they admit, because of their impelementation, they've lot the MMO elements, and don't use that term themselves. |
| 23:59.17 | Zeal | *lost |
| 23:59.36 | Zeal | yet it's still marketed as na MMO, and people still refer to it an MMO |
