| 00:27.28 | Adys | what the hell is 2.0.8 out already? |
| 00:33.51 | Gryphen | yes |
| 00:34.14 | *** join/#wowwiki dok3Dal (n=dok@AStrasbourg-251-1-65-44.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 00:34.34 | Kirkburn|afk | Huh? |
| 00:34.36 | Kirkburn|afk | Really? |
| 00:34.57 | Adys | hotfix for arenas it seems |
| 00:35.04 | Adys | downloading it now |
| 00:35.10 | Adys | 256kb after 10 mins |
| 00:35.38 | Kirkburn|afk | Hotfix = server side ;) |
| 00:35.55 | Kirkburn|afk | But yeah, just saw the story on WoW Insider |
| 00:36.05 | Kirkburn|afk | What version was 2.0.7? |
| 00:36.22 | Kirkburn|afk | 6383? |
| 00:36.27 | Adys | uhm |
| 00:36.35 | Adys | yes |
| 00:36.50 | Adys | WoW-2.0.7.6383-to-2.0.8.6403-enGB-patch.exe |
| 00:37.01 | Kirkburn|afk | 20 versions on ... hmm |
| 00:38.50 | Gnarfoz | not surprising, 2.0.7 must have been frozen a while ago, so 20 builds since then don't seem unreasonable |
| 00:39.57 | Kirkburn|afk | Yeah, but only one fix in that time? |
| 00:40.04 | Kirkburn|afk | I guess it's branched |
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| 00:41.05 | *** join/#wowwiki kindergip (n=one@h24-207-52-155.dlt.dccnet.com) |
| 00:41.11 | Adys | Here is one question |
| 00:41.20 | Adys | Do we want items and npcs categorized burning crusade? |
| 00:41.28 | Adys | or is this the most useless thing in the world |
| 00:42.32 | Adys | lol.. |
| 00:42.33 | Adys | (diff) (hist) . . ! Server:Aman'Thul US02:27 . . Flexibull (Talk | contribs | block) (Updated to include current top 50 Alliance guilds, as well as comments on progression (to be completed)) |
| 00:42.51 | Adys | 50 top progression ALLIANCE guilds on one server? |
| 00:42.55 | Adys | that seems quite nice... |
| 00:44.42 | Kirkburn|afk | heh |
| 00:45.21 | Kirkburn|afk | I think, regarding TBC ... we're schtuck |
| 00:45.41 | Kirkburn|afk | There's no simple option :/ |
| 00:46.28 | Karrion | I don't think there's any point categorising / {{bc}}-ing items or npcs |
| 00:46.47 | Adys | Yes its to the conclusion we came the last time we talked about it |
| 00:47.07 | Adys | http://www.wowwiki.com/index.php?title=Aldori_Legacy_Defender&curid=84763&diff=501576&oldid=501568&rcid=412193 but it seems some people really want otherwise. |
| 00:47.08 | Karrion | there's nothing directly stopping you interacting with the npcs, other than their location |
| 00:47.52 | Montagg | You might want to BC-ize things like locations and instances, but not NPCs. |
| 00:47.59 | Kirkburn|afk | Yes, my personal view is only bother for the important stuff |
| 00:48.06 | Adys | Yep its what we said last time to |
| 00:48.12 | Montagg | Which basically ends up being a tag saying, "You can't go here unless you have BC installed." |
| 00:48.16 | Adys | gonna give it a go at this and notice this guy |
| 00:48.17 | Kirkburn|afk | I mean, if something says it's in Shattrath, it should be obious it's BC only ;) |
| 00:48.27 | Adys | or an item that is lvl 70 required >< |
| 00:48.36 | Karrion | if you started doing items, what would you do with BoEs that can be sent/sold to people without TBC? |
| 00:48.43 | Kirkburn|afk | aye |
| 00:49.29 | Kirkburn|afk | (that's why I originally wrote "major content exclusive to...", but there were objections) |
| 00:49.31 | Karrion | hmmm... here's a possible criteria: if it's in the game files of a non-TBC client, it doesn't get the tag |
| 00:49.55 | Kirkburn|afk | Lots of stuff is in the TBC-client, unfortunately >_< |
| 00:50.00 | Kirkburn|afk | *non |
| 00:50.19 | Montagg | Karrion: That also has the possibility of not being intuitive. |
| 00:50.28 | Adys | everything BC is in the non bc client Karrion |
| 00:50.36 | Adys | else ppl would crash upon inspecting a lvl 70 |
| 00:50.43 | Karrion | all the items have to be, most of the character models... but the zone/instance geometry wouldn't be |
| 00:50.44 | Adys | all the items that is |
| 00:50.58 | Adys | Yeah most of it isnt |
| 00:51.02 | Adys | its in expansion.mpq |
| 00:51.20 | Karrion | thus items wouldn't get the {{bc}} but zones and instances would |
| 00:51.35 | Kirkburn|afk | Okay so let's make a list |
| 00:51.37 | Karrion | I'm not suggesting it as policy or anything, just a possibly useful guideline |
| 00:51.48 | Kirkburn|afk | What gets {{bc}}: |
| 00:51.51 | Montagg | Do you need BC to get into Zul'Aman? |
| 00:51.55 | Kirkburn|afk | Yes |
| 00:52.06 | Adys | BC I would say Instances |
| 00:52.07 | Adys | Zones |
| 00:52.15 | Montagg | Cities? |
| 00:52.20 | Adys | yea ofc |
| 00:52.24 | Karrion | instances, zones, that you can't access |
| 00:52.25 | Kirkburn|afk | Yeah, all locations |
| 00:52.26 | Adys | possibly bosses, but not all (I would put only things like Gruul, Vashj etc) |
| 00:52.43 | Karrion | ie, outland, silvermoon, exodar... |
| 00:52.43 | Adys | I would definetly not put it on Subzones |
| 00:52.50 | Montagg | I wouldn't put it on bosses. |
| 00:52.58 | Adys | Well depends |
| 00:53.03 | Adys | if you're searching info on vashj |
| 00:53.05 | Montagg | The instance list usually has BC in it somewhere. |
| 00:53.11 | Adys | the tag is to tell you that "she is in game, in BC" |
| 00:53.17 | Kirkburn|afk | bc-section would be more approriate |
| 00:53.18 | Adys | i dont know, i see it that way |
| 00:53.21 | Karrion | I could see having it on major bosses in BC-tagged instances |
| 00:53.24 | Adys | Yeah probably true kirk |
| 00:53.26 | Kirkburn|afk | Major bosses are normally mostly lore |
| 00:53.28 | Adys | remove bosses |
| 00:53.35 | Karrion | hmm good point |
| 00:53.48 | Karrion | quests? |
| 00:53.56 | Adys | Gets a no from me |
| 00:53.56 | Karrion | I'm thinking probably not |
| 00:54.01 | Montagg | For instance, Karazhan's boss list could have Karazhan {{bc-icon}} at the top of the list. |
| 00:54.11 | Montagg | No for quests. |
| 00:54.14 | Karrion | the "requires level > 60" should be enough |
| 00:54.20 | Kirkburn|afk | {{bc-inline}}, you mean? |
| 00:54.23 | Montagg | That's right. |
| 00:54.29 | Adys | What about races? |
| 00:54.34 | Adys | apart from be/dn |
| 00:54.41 | Adys | like arakkoa and stuff |
| 00:54.42 | Kirkburn|afk | {{bc-section}} |
| 00:54.49 | Kirkburn|afk | Ah, well |
| 00:54.50 | Kirkburn|afk | Hmm |
| 00:55.11 | Kirkburn|afk | If they're /only/ in BC, then yeah {{bc}} |
| 00:55.20 | Kirkburn|afk | But say, for eredar, {{bc-section]} |
| 00:55.31 | Adys | dunno, i mean |
| 00:55.39 | Adys | if they put it in game they will put it again later on |
| 00:55.46 | Adys | and prob at some point on non bc content |
| 00:55.47 | Kirkburn|afk | indeed |
| 00:55.55 | Kirkburn|afk | This is painful >.< |
| 00:56.06 | Adys | for playable races anyways we will put bc imo |
| 00:56.19 | Kirkburn|afk | Probably a good idea to make a table for this |
| 00:56.28 | Adys | Ok so |
| 00:56.29 | Montagg | Let's think of it in terms of other expansions. If someone doesn't get BC but gets Xpac-2, they can't access BC-only content, but they can access their own. |
| 00:56.38 | Kirkburn|afk | A column for each template, putting the appropriate pages under them |
| 00:56.48 | Kirkburn|afk | (*page-types |
| 00:56.53 | Montagg | What tagging rules would be most useful to those people? |
| 00:57.15 | Adys | well.. |
| 00:57.16 | Kirkburn|afk | Now here's a thing - we don't know how Blizz will deal with futher expansions |
| 00:57.31 | Kirkburn|afk | To get to 80 you need to get to 70 first. |
| 00:57.44 | Adys | they might make BC a part of the game |
| 00:58.00 | Adys | and oh no I dont wanna think about how we would deal with that lol |
| 00:58.04 | Karrion | but the next expansion may or may not raise the level cap again, may or may not require BC, may or may not grant you BC automatically... |
| 00:58.13 | Adys | aye |
| 00:58.22 | Adys | they wont systematically tell us to level to 80 |
| 00:58.32 | Karrion | I think we should burn that bridge when we come to it |
| 00:58.39 | Adys | Lets just deal with "what goes in Category:Burning Crusade" first |
| 00:58.46 | Adys | then BC section is a more "free" thing imo |
| 00:58.59 | Adys | So Yes to Zones, Cities, Instances, Draenei/Blood Elf/Jewelcrafting - Anything else? |
| 00:59.02 | Kirkburn|afk | Probably best to think just about "what got added by what expansion" |
| 00:59.36 | Kirkburn|afk | That's about it as far as I can think of atm |
| 01:00.12 | Karrion | yeah I can't think of anything else that directly requires the expansion |
| 01:00.27 | Adys | Flying mounts :P |
| 01:00.39 | Adys | High level spells too (I wouldnt put bc on them) |
| 01:00.51 | Karrion | they only indirectly require it |
| 01:01.03 | Adys | well I guess the flying mount main article gets it but the item pages dont |
| 01:01.11 | Karrion | they require a level you can't achieve without it |
| 01:01.43 | Karrion | but yeah the main flying mount page refers to something that was a significant part of the expansion so it should get it |
| 01:01.47 | Adys | and can only be used in outland |
| 01:01.55 | Adys | aye |
| 01:02.12 | Karrion | so... things that were on the marketing feature list? >.> |
| 01:02.13 | Montagg | So, our list so far is: locations, instances, flying mount. |
| 01:02.19 | Adys | thats why I thought BC didnt need a new layout aswell |
| 01:02.26 | Adys | on the end we wouldn t have many bc articles |
| 01:02.28 | Montagg | Blood elf/dreanei mounts, too? |
| 01:02.46 | Adys | no |
| 01:02.48 | Montagg | We don't need too mnay. It just has to be useful to somebody. |
| 01:02.48 | Adys | uh |
| 01:02.49 | Adys | wait |
| 01:03.06 | Karrion | hmm, is the only thing stopping you getting an elekk mount the location of the vendor? |
| 01:03.14 | Adys | yea |
| 01:03.25 | Adys | you can get exodar rep without bc np |
| 01:04.45 | Montagg | Really, the only place a person without BC is limited is at instance portals (for zones and instances respectively). |
| 01:05.09 | Montagg | And they can't earn experience past 60. |
| 01:05.22 | Kirkburn|afk | http://www.wowwiki.com/User:Kirkburn/Dev |
| 01:05.31 | Kirkburn|afk | Edit that :) |
| 01:05.38 | Karrion | and the character creation screen (for new races) |
| 01:06.16 | Adys | uh? |
| 01:06.21 | Adys | ah |
| 01:07.27 | Adys | Oh and btw |
| 01:07.30 | Montagg | Everything else is a by-product of those limitations. |
| 01:07.32 | Adys | http://www.wowwiki.com/WoWWiki:Templates/Elinks_Templates_Standardization - go vote ~ |
| 01:08.13 | Adys | I want this thing over asap so we can start the bot edits and more regular templates |
| 01:09.03 | Karrion | out for food, back later |
| 01:13.58 | Adys | Removing [[Category:Burning Crusade]] from Stub/BC - slowdown incoming |
| 01:14.32 | Kirkburn|afk | \o/ |
| 01:15.19 | Adys | Im glad we can finally finish off with these silly changes |
| 01:15.27 | Adys | this category was badly freaking me out |
| 01:16.06 | Adys | We had a bit too much ZEAL into hesitating beetween solutions |
| 01:18.54 | Kirkburn|afk | ... |
| 01:19.29 | Kirkburn|afk | The category is still massive ;) |
| 01:19.51 | Adys | we at least removed 300 articles tho |
| 01:19.58 | Kirkburn|afk | heh |
| 01:20.33 | Kirkburn|afk | So, yeah, we need a table like ( http://www.wowwiki.com/User:Kirkburn/Dev ) to keep track of what goes where |
| 01:21.58 | Kirkburn|afk | I'm pissed off - I missed Amazon's Wii orders today :/ |
| 01:22.04 | Kirkburn|afk | ( http://www.wii-consoles.co.uk/wii_console_realtime.asp ) |
| 01:23.00 | Montagg | You can't reserve any? |
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| 01:30.36 | Adys | god Im really badly hungry and I have no idea what to eat |
| 01:30.41 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Adys] by ChanServ |
| 01:30.44 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+v infobot] by Adys |
| 01:31.01 | *** join/#wowwiki dok3Dal (n=dok@AStrasbourg-251-1-65-44.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 01:39.18 | Adys | I hate people precising till they have no idea what else to add |
| 01:39.34 | Adys | "The Schematic is sold by Wind Trader Lathrai in the Lower City in Shattrath City in Terokkar Forest gah |
| 01:41.09 | Gnarfoz | ... in Outland? |
| 01:41.10 | Gnarfoz | ;D |
| 01:46.39 | Montagg | Can you guys think of a use for creating a blank page? |
| 01:47.06 | Kirkburn|afk | Adys, I'm trying to think of a better word for 'precising' - it doesn't quite fit unfortunately |
| 01:47.22 | Adys | eh? |
| 01:47.33 | Kirkburn|afk | It's a frenchism :P |
| 01:47.37 | Adys | im french, stop beating on me |
| 01:48.00 | Kirkburn|afk | I want to help your english :) |
| 01:48.22 | Kirkburn|afk | What's the french word is comes from? |
| 01:48.29 | Adys | Préciser |
| 01:48.29 | Kirkburn|afk | *it |
| 01:48.38 | Adys | Precis = Accurate |
| 01:48.52 | Montagg | Accurate as a verb? |
| 01:48.58 | Kirkburn|afk | Specify |
| 01:49.05 | Adys | meh =) |
| 01:49.13 | Montagg | There's always "to be accurate" or "to verify," if that's the meaning. |
| 01:50.38 | Kirkburn|afk | The Schematic is sold by Wind Trader Lathrai in the Lower City in Shattrath City in Terokkar Forest in Outland in the Twisting Nether in Warcraft in Metzen's Head. |
| 01:50.38 | Adys | For more info visit thottbot |
| 01:50.47 | Kirkburn|afk | heh |
| 01:50.55 | Gnarfoz | wait, there's more? :| |
| 01:51.01 | Kirkburn|afk | I made it up ^^ |
| 01:51.12 | Montagg | Niice. |
| 01:57.12 | *** join/#wowwiki Gryphen (n=masked@c-71-227-151-230.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 01:57.12 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Gryphen] by ChanServ |
| 02:10.51 | Adys | ding, 8000 contribs =P |
| 02:11.16 | *** join/#wowwiki dok3Dal (n=dok@AStrasbourg-251-1-65-44.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 02:11.53 | Montagg | Grats. |
| 02:12.18 | Montagg | I'm still saving up for my epic keyboard. |
| 02:12.25 | Montagg | It stops the wiki from ever having errors. Ever. |
| 02:13.50 | Kirkburn|afk | lol |
| 02:16.07 | Montagg | Increases editing speed by 100%. |
| 02:17.56 | Kirkburn|afk | I want an epic flying keyboard which increases editing speed by 280% ;) |
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| 02:21.17 | Kaso | So whats up with WoWWiki anyway, need more money for a new server or something? |
| 02:21.46 | *** join/#wowwiki dok3Dal (n=dok@AStrasbourg-251-1-65-44.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 02:21.49 | Adys | Nah |
| 02:21.56 | Adys | we getting an upgrade over the week |
| 02:21.59 | Adys | afaik |
| 02:22.09 | *** join/#wowwiki Cairenn (n=Cairenn@MMOI/Administratrix/Cairenn) |
| 02:22.09 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Cairenn] by ChanServ |
| 02:22.57 | Montagg | You guys see my post in the pump? |
| 02:23.39 | Adys | aye |
| 02:24.44 | Kirkburn|afk | Kaso, I don't think money has ever really been an issue, it's more time contraints and problems with the code itself |
| 02:25.16 | Kirkburn|afk | 2.0.8 is quite large! |
| 02:25.24 | Kaso | Howso problems with the code? How old an mediawiki version are you running |
| 02:25.29 | Kirkburn|afk | 1.7.2 |
| 02:25.40 | Kirkburn|afk | We're not entirely certain what the problem is |
| 02:26.14 | Kirkburn|afk | Note that the wiki runs on one 'bog-standard' PC :P |
| 02:27.18 | Kaso | aah |
| 02:27.35 | Kaso | what sort of connection is it on then? |
| 02:27.42 | Kirkburn|afk | Couldn't say |
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| 02:29.16 | Kirkburn|afk | The guys who really know the server stuff are sancu.s and vla.d, I'm like the middle man ^^ |
| 02:29.37 | Kirkburn|afk | Regarding 2.0.8 ... 3.29MB just to fix an issue with the Arena board? Odd. |
| 02:30.00 | Kirkburn|afk | Looks more like a full 2.0.7 repatch + extra change |
| 02:30.15 | Kaso | How large was .7 |
| 02:30.49 | Kirkburn|afk | 3.527MB |
| 02:30.57 | Kaso | seems plausable |
| 02:31.01 | Kirkburn|afk | Wait, 3,527KB |
| 02:31.16 | Kirkburn|afk | (dunno if they're equivalent? Too confusing) |
| 02:31.48 | dotted | yes they are |
| 02:31.50 | Adys | i believe they are |
| 02:32.27 | Kirkburn|afk | KiB, KB, argh |
| 02:34.18 | Adys | http://www.wowwiki.com/Talk:Pantaloons_of_Repentence |
| 02:35.45 | Montagg | Kirkburn|afk: That's what I was thinking. |
| 02:36.06 | Montagg | Kirkburn|afk: Especially something minor like the scoreboard. |
| 02:40.13 | Adys | Kirkburn: http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:T4mage.JPG should we delete these screenshots? |
| 02:40.34 | Adys | they were made on private servers i dont really like the idea of having this instead of a more normal screenshto |
| 02:40.36 | Adys | otů |
| 02:40.41 | Adys | screenshot*** |
| 02:41.35 | Kirkburn|afk | Hrm |
| 02:42.11 | Kirkburn|afk | The only difference is the name at the bottom |
| 02:42.33 | Kirkburn|afk | You can make an identical screenshot ingame, it just won't have the name at the bottom |
| 02:42.47 | Kirkburn|afk | (using the dressing room) |
| 02:42.47 | Adys | still dont like the fact we have that kind of things |
| 02:43.07 | Adys | i mean all these things degrade our image on blizzards eyes |
| 02:44.09 | Adys | Ah zeal |
| 02:44.11 | Adys | heya |
| 02:44.11 | Kirkburn|afk | I do agree, but I don't think that screenie is a particularly heinous example :) |
| 02:44.27 | Adys | slowdown incoming, seems the stub/bc edit didnt make through |
| 02:44.29 | Zeal | hey Adys |
| 02:44.30 | Zeal | lo all |
| 02:44.53 | Adys | actually, nvm |
| 02:44.57 | Adys | ill do these after |
| 02:47.35 | Adys | http://www.wowwiki.com/Template:Stub/Strategy ? |
| 02:47.47 | Adys | seems he forgot to add the categorization |
| 02:48.15 | Adys | nm |
| 02:50.45 | Adys | btw |
| 02:51.01 | Adys | it seems the ratings on Equip and Set are not "effects" |
| 02:51.11 | Adys | but they seem to be stats, like int/stam/str etc |
| 02:51.15 | Kirkburn|afk | This is freaky, the downloader keeps complaining about not being able to save data :/ |
| 02:51.22 | Adys | aye kirk |
| 02:51.25 | Adys | let me give you a link |
| 02:51.49 | Adys | actually its small enough |
| 02:51.49 | Adys | http://adys.stools.net/WoW-2.0.7.6383-to-2.0.8.6403-enGB-patch.exe |
| 02:51.53 | Kirkburn|afk | Zeal: http://www.wowwiki.com/User:Kirkburn/Dev |
| 02:52.39 | Kirkburn|afk | Ta |
| 02:52.49 | Adys | What the HELL does ta stand for |
| 02:52.54 | Kirkburn|afk | Thanks |
| 02:52.57 | Adys | I know! |
| 02:53.02 | Kirkburn|afk | lol |
| 02:53.17 | Kirkburn|afk | It's like asking what Yo! stands for :) |
| 02:53.18 | Adys | but what does it literally stand for? |
| 02:53.25 | Adys | I mean |
| 02:53.31 | Adys | hows it called |
| 02:53.36 | Adys | not an abbreviation, the other thing |
| 02:53.46 | Adys | ARGH I hate being french |
| 02:53.58 | Kirkburn|afk | Acronym? |
| 02:54.00 | Karrion | you mean acronym? |
| 02:54.04 | Adys | yes |
| 02:54.13 | Karrion | well, it's not one |
| 02:54.14 | Kirkburn|afk | Doesn't stand for anything :) |
| 02:54.21 | Adys | Why not :(' |
| 02:54.40 | Adys | I managed to work out it'd stand for "truly appreciated" |
| 02:54.45 | Adys | Come on.. |
| 02:54.45 | Kirkburn|afk | Cause we use an evil language that picks on words and orphans them for no reason |
| 02:54.56 | Kirkburn|afk | haha |
| 02:54.56 | Adys | Bah! |
| 02:55.20 | Kirkburn|afk | Well in the UK, TA stands for the Territorial Army |
| 02:55.22 | Adys | come on, I actually thought it did stand for that! |
| 02:55.28 | Adys | TOTAL ANNIHILATION |
| 02:55.30 | Adys | Mwuhaha |
| 02:55.34 | Adys | thats not me.. |
| 02:55.39 | Adys | I did ask earlier on... |
| 02:55.43 | Adys | I got that as answer :/ |
| 02:55.55 | Karrion | http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ta |
| 02:55.55 | Zeal | another patch to extract, yay >_> |
| 02:56.02 | Adys | zeal http://adys.stools.net/WoW-2.0.7.6383-to-2.0.8.6403-enGB-patch.exe |
| 02:56.12 | Zeal | Montagg, did you solve that rest xp stuff? |
| 02:56.18 | Kirkburn|afk | Karrion beat me :/ |
| 02:56.24 | Zeal | cos if it's per server, i only have 1 char on mine. |
| 02:56.32 | Adys | 34 minutes left here |
| 02:56.37 | Zeal | using blizz torrent Adys |
| 02:56.44 | Adys | yeah dont |
| 02:56.45 | Zeal | 2 mins here, ol |
| 02:56.49 | Adys | i needed like 1 hour to dl it |
| 02:56.50 | Zeal | *lol |
| 02:56.52 | Kirkburn|afk | It's f**ked |
| 02:56.52 | Adys | data kept corrupting |
| 02:56.59 | Adys | what I figured is |
| 02:57.02 | Zeal | working fine for me atm :S |
| 02:57.04 | Adys | I needed to download it by chunks |
| 02:57.15 | Kirkburn|afk | Once you reach about 1MB it buggered up for me |
| 02:57.24 | Zeal | i'm over 1mb |
| 02:57.27 | Adys | one tick, close the downloader, reopen for like 10 seconds, close again, reopen, etc |
| 02:57.28 | Kirkburn|afk | Kept having to close and open it |
| 02:57.38 | Kirkburn|afk | If you reach 2MB, you might be lucky :) |
| 02:57.38 | Adys | I got it complete like that |
| 02:57.44 | Zeal | over 2mb now.. |
| 02:57.45 | Zeal | lol |
| 02:57.50 | Kirkburn|afk | Damn youuuu! |
| 02:57.58 | Adys | hm |
| 02:58.03 | Adys | maybe blizzard likes Zeal |
| 02:58.12 | Adys | (this society scares me even more every day!) |
| 02:58.22 | Adys | infobot, cookies! |
| 02:58.23 | infobot | <Zygo> our corporate web guy is talking to our corporate database guy...about this "service" where site A sells us a list of cookie keys (and associated name/address/phone number values) that they set in their users' browsers when said users follow a link to our site. |
| 02:58.28 | Adys | thanks |
| 02:58.50 | Zeal | 2.79mb, 84%. it's just ground to a halt.. |
| 02:58.57 | Adys | here you go =P |
| 02:58.59 | Kirkburn|afk | Close, reopen :) |
| 02:59.02 | Adys | aye |
| 02:59.27 | Adys | how do you pronounce "ta"? |
| 02:59.35 | Kirkburn|afk | Same as french |
| 02:59.45 | Adys | it sounds retarded |
| 02:59.48 | Adys | cant be that, come on |
| 02:59.49 | Kirkburn|afk | Perhaps maybe a bit longer |
| 02:59.52 | Kirkburn|afk | Like taa |
| 03:00.05 | Zeal | done |
| 03:00.11 | Kirkburn|afk | woot |
| 03:00.13 | Adys | Im currently laughing so hard im having a hard time breathing |
| 03:00.22 | Zeal | its a hotfix for the arena scoreboard.. wtf lol |
| 03:00.25 | Adys | Imagine someone standing at his comp telling him "taaa" |
| 03:00.53 | Kirkburn|afk | I thought it might be a repackaged 2.0.7, but it's smaller |
| 03:01.16 | Adys | So how many hidden nerfs are there in this "minor patch" |
| 03:01.25 | Zeal | fyi, i don't like that thing in dev |
| 03:01.33 | Zeal | cos it follows adys's idea |
| 03:01.39 | Zeal | which i'm again |
| 03:01.41 | Zeal | *against |
| 03:01.55 | Adys | I knew you wouldnt like :P Im starting to know you =P |
| 03:03.44 | Zeal | and anyone else who voted for option 2.. |
| 03:03.52 | Adys | lol |
| 03:03.58 | Zeal | ..with the reason of discrimination or provinding info |
| 03:04.01 | Montagg | Sorry Zeal. I use Thott. =c) |
| 03:04.15 | Zeal | and? it's misleading information |
| 03:04.25 | Adys | Have fun montag |
| 03:04.28 | Montagg | It's worked for me so far. |
| 03:05.39 | Zeal | for items, and mobs, it provides a false peice of information. simply saying unless there is good reason, no need to send our visitors there when they have two better options. |
| 03:05.48 | Adys | now wheres my popcorn.. |
| 03:07.14 | Zeal | lol |
| 03:07.30 | Adys | hehe you know I really like you zeal :P |
| 03:07.47 | Zeal | ofc |
| 03:07.51 | Adys | and I might be the only one constantly disagreeing with you but who still likes you =P |
| 03:07.53 | Zeal | you don't need to keep saying that ;) |
| 03:08.08 | Adys | I know, I just am trying to find out WHY I do ;)= |
| 03:08.10 | Zeal | might get the wrong idea, lol |
| 03:08.15 | Adys | haha |
| 03:09.02 | Kirkburn|afk | Life's boring without conflict |
| 03:09.59 | Adys | Kirkburn: Should we keep the BC template for specific pages? |
| 03:10.02 | *** join/#wowwiki dotted^2 (n=me@0x555157c7.adsl.cybercity.dk) |
| 03:10.06 | Adys | Like the aldor scryer comparison or http://www.wowwiki.com/Anatomy_of_a_City:_Silvermoon |
| 03:10.09 | Adys | Id say keeep |
| 03:10.11 | Adys | keep* |
| 03:10.11 | Kirkburn|afk | Yeah |
| 03:10.17 | Adys | ok |
| 03:11.18 | Kirkburn|afk | Netsplit! |
| 03:11.58 | Adys | was more obvious in wowi-lounge or wowace |
| 03:11.58 | Kirkburn|afk | =) |
| 03:12.10 | *** join/#wowwiki dok3Dal (n=dok@AStrasbourg-251-1-65-44.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 03:12.54 | Zeal | :s |
| 03:13.17 | Zeal | anyways.. i'm waiting to see more discussion on that new lore policy |
| 03:13.39 | Zeal | if i don't agree, which i suspect. ratifying. if that fails, i'm off : / |
| 03:14.15 | Kirkburn|afk | I have no idea what you just said. |
| 03:14.40 | Zeal | that lore policy vote |
| 03:14.48 | Zeal | that was handling A3 |
| 03:15.01 | Kirkburn|afk | The one I extended |
| 03:15.02 | Kirkburn|afk | ? |
| 03:15.05 | Zeal | it got a yes. me and Baggins only people who voted no |
| 03:15.11 | Zeal | yeah, adys ended it. |
| 03:15.22 | Zeal | *i suspect. recalling |
| 03:15.26 | Montagg | No, I like Zeal. |
| 03:15.31 | Montagg | Just don't agree with him all the time. |
| 03:15.37 | Zeal | :p |
| 03:15.40 | Kirkburn|afk | I did essentially say we had to finish it off |
| 03:15.51 | Kirkburn|afk | Recalling is fine by me |
| 03:15.53 | Zeal | i know, but no one was touching it. |
| 03:16.10 | Kirkburn|afk | Baggins is the main one involved with the articles, which is why I never liked it |
| 03:16.14 | Zeal | i'm awaiting implementation details before i recall. |
| 03:16.30 | Kirkburn|afk | Give it a little while |
| 03:16.56 | Kirkburn|afk | I think Baggins would like some time to not be thinking about it, plus it should shut up the complainers for a little while :P |
| 03:17.43 | Kirkburn|afk | I mean, no loss to you if nothing gets done about it for a few days since you voted against it anyway ;) |
| 03:17.57 | *** join/#wowwiki Hobinheim (n=Hobinhei@c-69-142-120-32.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) |
| 03:18.17 | Adys | By the way |
| 03:18.19 | Zeal | aye |
| 03:18.25 | Adys | as a "temporary" item boilerplate |
| 03:18.32 | Adys | http://www.wowwiki.com/Aran%27s_Soothing_Sapphire will do |
| 03:18.36 | Kirkburn|afk | Basically I guess I'm saying, I don't like things getting to the point where people feel "victimised" |
| 03:18.59 | Zeal | /spit adys |
| 03:19.01 | Kirkburn|afk | (Angry ogre notwithstanding! ^^ ) |
| 03:19.11 | Adys | its temporary zeal :p |
| 03:19.21 | Kirkburn|afk | The image server has odd lag spikes |
| 03:19.21 | Zeal | its also horrible and a step back |
| 03:19.33 | Kirkburn|afk | Comparison? |
| 03:19.39 | *** join/#wowwiki Tekkub (n=tekkub@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Featured/Dongle/Tekkub) |
| 03:19.39 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Tekkub] by ChanServ |
| 03:19.47 | Kirkburn|afk | Heya Tekkub |
| 03:19.48 | Adys | kirkburn: do you have a link for the lore policy? i lost it |
| 03:19.50 | Adys | alo tek |
| 03:19.59 | Kirkburn|afk | Should be on the lore policy talk page? |
| 03:20.10 | Zeal | http://www.wowwiki.com/WoWWiki_talk:Policy/Writing/Lore |
| 03:20.15 | Tekkub | :P |
| 03:20.20 | Zeal | hey Tekkub |
| 03:20.42 | Adys | zeal: atm it will do for items, we just need to get over with the bc items |
| 03:20.54 | Adys | We need a solid standard for bot edits mainly |
| 03:21.13 | Adys | having 15 different good boilerplates is worse than having one bad one |
| 03:21.23 | Kirkburn|afk | "bad" |
| 03:21.24 | Adys | we just need something simple |
| 03:21.41 | Tekkub | what wine goes best with cheap burnt cheese pizza? |
| 03:21.50 | Adys | Beer |
| 03:21.56 | Adys | dont get wine with pizza |
| 03:21.57 | Tekkub | n, wine |
| 03:22.02 | Tekkub | I don't do beer |
| 03:22.05 | Kirkburn|afk | Beer, wine of the peons |
| 03:22.17 | Adys | then try whiskey |
| 03:22.23 | Adys | or something very strong in this case |
| 03:22.31 | Tekkub | hrm... never tried whisker actually |
| 03:22.41 | Adys | Wine really doesnt go well with cheap pizzas :P |
| 03:22.52 | Adys | unless its cheap wine.. |
| 03:22.55 | Tekkub | I usually go for "candy beer" like Smearnoff Ice or Mike's Lemonade |
| 03:23.17 | Kirkburn|afk | bleh, alcohol |
| 03:23.36 | Kirkburn|afk | <-- weird non-drinker |
| 03:23.56 | Adys | No I dont drink either |
| 03:24.04 | Tekkub | *shrug* depends on your reasons |
| 03:24.05 | Adys | or extremely rarely |
| 03:24.20 | Adys | but I never actually get drunk |
| 03:24.28 | Tekkub | same here |
| 03:24.38 | Tekkub | drinking good, drunking bad |
| 03:25.27 | Adys | "With Adys, anything else just sounds silly." you know this actually can be taken a very bad way zeal ^^ |
| 03:25.36 | Tekkub | however it's also good to not tell people you don't get drunk so you can fake it and do things you shouldn't :) |
| 03:25.53 | Kirkburn|afk | drunking dranking = headache? |
| 03:26.43 | Kirkburn|afk | I was once described as an Aristocratic Drunk |
| 03:26.47 | Tekkub | telling your guild (with your hubby) about how you're both going to have drunken sex is tons of fun |
| 03:26.47 | Adys | http://www.wowwiki.com/User:Adys/Qotd/22 sorry zeal ^^ |
| 03:26.48 | Zeal | rofl Adys, i know ;) |
| 03:26.49 | Kirkburn|afk | I hid my drunkeness very well :P |
| 03:26.58 | Tekkub | also a great way to find a new guild :) |
| 03:27.05 | Kirkburn|afk | lol |
| 03:27.05 | Zeal | i don't get drunk |
| 03:27.09 | Zeal | my friends know it |
| 03:27.18 | Kirkburn|afk | Well, I mean, c'mon, drunken sex /is/ tons of fun |
| 03:27.20 | Zeal | i'm the responsible one who stops them doing stupid things :P |
| 03:27.34 | Adys | depends which one of the two is drunk kirk |
| 03:27.34 | Tekkub | yea... being responsible sucks |
| 03:27.39 | Zeal | and tbh, i'd imagine cider goes nicely with cheap pizza |
| 03:27.50 | Tekkub | hrm... cider... that reminds me |
| 03:27.51 | Montagg | Aye Adys. Preferably mutual drunkenness. |
| 03:27.58 | Tekkub | I need to find some mead |
| 03:28.02 | Adys | Indeed :P |
| 03:28.03 | Tekkub | never had it, sounds good |
| 03:28.04 | Kirkburn|afk | I was going to cook myself a pizza this ... morning. You're all putting me off :/ |
| 03:28.09 | Adys | LOl |
| 03:28.13 | Adys | Lol* |
| 03:28.19 | Zeal | anyways.. adys i'm still in favour of using what was planned. i don't wanna start reverting back pages.. |
| 03:28.31 | Zeal | tooltip is less of a problem child compared to loot |
| 03:28.44 | Adys | We will use all these things once 1/ we got the server sorted |
| 03:28.49 | Adys | 2/ we got all the votes sorted |
| 03:28.49 | Tekkub | I'm in favor of planning to revert Zeal |
| 03:29.02 | Adys | 3/ we got every template and parser function crap sorted |
| 03:29.09 | Tekkub | those will never happen |
| 03:29.14 | Zeal | well, it was already decided (not by me) to use tooltip :P |
| 03:29.32 | Zeal | so revrting back is silly imo. |
| 03:29.35 | Kirkburn|afk | Kirkburn reverts Zeal back to Fervor |
| 03:29.40 | Adys | Im not reverting back things |
| 03:29.50 | Adys | Im using this model for the new pages and stubs |
| 03:29.53 | Adys | Nothing else |
| 03:29.58 | Adys | rest will be done manually if needed |
| 03:30.03 | Zeal | you say about doing a bot run :P |
| 03:30.07 | Zeal | *said |
| 03:30.18 | Adys | Yes its still not any time soon |
| 03:30.34 | Zeal | i wouldn't do a bot run until after the upgrade, lol |
| 03:30.58 | Adys | Once we will have the wiki actually sorted and bots able to run we should use them more |
| 03:31.17 | Adys | Ill possibly try to install one aswell and learn how to program them because its annoying me |
| 03:31.50 | Zeal | i'm just saying, it's so inconsistant atm, nad doing a bot run would be pointless, may as well leave the boilerplates as they are |
| 03:31.55 | Kirkburn|afk | Can you imagine what administering the wiki was like before this channel? |
| 03:31.59 | Zeal | it'll all get changed aftr the upgrade anyways |
| 03:32.03 | Adys | indeed kirk ^ |
| 03:32.06 | Zeal | hell |
| 03:32.24 | Montagg | Right now, it would be impossible. |
| 03:32.25 | Kirkburn|afk | Mmhmm |
| 03:32.37 | Adys | with this amount of admin yea |
| 03:32.42 | Kirkburn|afk | Slow, too. Glacial, some of the time. |
| 03:34.14 | Adys | User:Vysogota is doing a shitload of work adding the BC raid loot |
| 03:34.19 | Montagg | Glacial. That's a good adjective. |
| 03:35.28 | Adys | Actually |
| 03:35.28 | Adys | Im thinking about adding Vysogota to the RC list |
| 03:35.31 | Kirkburn|afk | Wunderbar. There isn't a single AV bg on |
| 03:35.37 | Zeal | probably a good idea |
| 03:35.42 | Adys | unless anyone thinks against it? |
| 03:36.11 | Kirkburn|afk | Fine, fine |
| 03:36.29 | Adys | ok |
| 03:37.03 | Zeal | http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comics/20070214.jpg hehe |
| 03:37.23 | Kirkburn|afk | Question |
| 03:37.35 | Kirkburn|afk | Where the hell are the EotS battlemasters? |
| 03:37.44 | Zeal | next to the others? :s |
| 03:38.10 | Zeal | thas were they were in beta.. |
| 03:38.14 | Zeal | haven't looked since |
| 03:38.14 | Montagg | I assume they're big, cowlike Protoss guys walking around Ironforge or Stormwind. |
| 03:38.16 | Kirkburn|afk | Goddamit, I'm blind |
| 03:38.24 | Adys | zeal: lol |
| 03:38.30 | Zeal | lol Montagg |
| 03:38.46 | Zeal | why'd i get a lol? :S |
| 03:38.50 | Adys | for the link |
| 03:38.56 | Zeal | ah |
| 03:38.56 | Montagg | On the Horde side, they made ours bright red because they're so small. |
| 03:38.57 | Zeal | lol |
| 03:39.04 | Kirkburn|afk | lol |
| 03:39.09 | Adys | haha |
| 03:39.31 | Zeal | oo kitchen confidential to watch. seen that show Kirkburn|afk? |
| 03:39.44 | Kirkburn|afk | Noipe |
| 03:39.47 | Kirkburn|afk | *nope |
| 03:40.14 | Montagg | Trick question: Are you still AFK, Kirk? |
| 03:40.36 | Zeal | lol |
| 03:41.11 | *** join/#wowwiki Gryphen (n=masked@c-71-227-151-230.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 03:41.12 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Gryphen] by irc.freenode.net |
| 03:41.20 | Zeal | hm.. wowstratics dev Q&A |
| 03:41.23 | Zeal | wb Gryphen |
| 03:41.58 | Montagg | Oh, found out something interesting about Rest XP. At level 1, it seems to accumulate faster than a bar per 8 hours. |
| 03:42.18 | Montagg | Might level this toon to 5 and see if it changes again. |
| 03:42.37 | Zeal | don't understand what you said.. lol |
| 03:42.42 | Adys | in 4 minutes ill have to check this rested xp thing btw |
| 03:43.02 | Adys | actually lets see |
| 03:43.14 | Montagg | Rest XP is supposed to accumulate on a character by 5% (a bar) every 8 hours that you're logged off in an inn. |
| 03:43.36 | Adys | montagg |
| 03:43.38 | Montagg | So, if you're logged off for 24 hours, you get 15% of a level. |
| 03:43.46 | Adys | after exactly 8 hours I have 20 rested xp |
| 03:43.56 | Montagg | 20%? |
| 03:43.56 | Adys | which is 5% of my 400 xp at lvl 1 |
| 03:44.05 | Montagg | Hm. Really? |
| 03:44.08 | Adys | Yep |
| 03:44.14 | Adys | one character on the server |
| 03:44.14 | Montagg | You're logged off in Brill? |
| 03:44.17 | Adys | Aye |
| 03:44.23 | Adys | in the gallows end tavern |
| 03:44.29 | Montagg | That's weird. |
| 03:44.40 | Montagg | My character has a little under a quarter of a level. |
| 03:44.40 | Tekkub | which part of the gallows is the end? |
| 03:44.43 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Hobinheim] by ChanServ |
| 03:44.52 | Adys | lol |
| 03:44.59 | Adys | 1 char on the server, 11 chars total |
| 03:45.21 | Adys | btw |
| 03:45.21 | Tekkub | what's the max number of chars you can have on an acct again? |
| 03:45.25 | Adys | at the door, not far from the mailbox |
| 03:45.26 | Adys | 50 |
| 03:45.31 | Tekkub | okey, then I have 50 :) |
| 03:45.38 | Tekkub | too many L1 coding alts |
| 03:45.47 | Adys | coding alts? |
| 03:45.51 | Tekkub | forget to delete, server list forgets I have one, I lose it |
| 03:45.53 | Adys | they do the hard work for you? |
| 03:46.04 | Tekkub | :P |
| 03:46.14 | Kirkburn|afk | Woot, EotS time :) |
| 03:46.17 | Adys | uhm deleting wdb doesnt reset the server list cache anyways no? |
| 03:46.30 | Tekkub | I don't know |
| 03:46.37 | Montagg | Let me double check those test alts. |
| 03:46.37 | Zeal | its the cache for pretty much everything |
| 03:46.42 | Tekkub | all I know is I lose track of where they is |
| 03:46.45 | Zeal | so you won't see chars on the server afaik |
| 03:46.58 | Zeal | in the lsit that is ofc |
| 03:47.00 | Tekkub | the server char counts are stuptarded anyway |
| 03:47.12 | Tekkub | it still thinks I have 10 on Icecrown even if I log in there |
| 03:47.13 | Adys | Well when I logged my account for the first time on this computer I had all the chars straight away |
| 03:47.24 | Tekkub | I only have 1 there, moved them to Area 52 |
| 03:47.29 | Zeal | interesting :s |
| 03:47.37 | Adys | hm tekkub that might be a server side cache problem |
| 03:47.43 | Zeal | mine just vanish randomly, lol |
| 03:47.44 | Tekkub | probably |
| 03:47.48 | Adys | when I delete a char it doesnt show up straight away either |
| 03:47.50 | Tekkub | exactly Zeal |
| 03:47.59 | Zeal | i suspect it happens when a server restarts |
| 03:48.03 | Kirkburn|afk | Dammit, midgame and we're losing :/ |
| 03:48.07 | Zeal | the char count is lost until you next select it |
| 03:48.20 | Montagg | Adys: Your character has 1 bubble of rest XP? |
| 03:48.23 | Tekkub | yup, and that's exactly how I lose all my L1 alts |
| 03:48.31 | Tekkub | I forget what server and poof |
| 03:48.46 | Adys | no idea, but i can ensure you its 5% of the level and 20 xp |
| 03:48.53 | Adys | dont use the regular xp bar |
| 03:49.11 | Montagg | Why not? |
| 03:49.24 | Adys | http://adys.stools.net/bcui.jpg |
| 03:49.32 | Tekkub | oh a couple more showed up in my forum list tho... gonna jot these down so I can nuke em later |
| 03:49.34 | Adys | for that reason |
| 03:49.38 | Adys | and besides, I dont have alts |
| 03:49.40 | Montagg | Adys: Oh, you don't. |
| 03:49.55 | Adys | ah |
| 03:49.56 | Adys | lol |
| 03:50.05 | Adys | i see what you understood |
| 03:50.21 | Montagg | Mine has approxomately 4.5 bubbles of rest XP, or 23%. |
| 03:50.38 | Montagg | Level 1, warrior, logged off in Brill, created about 2-3 hours before yours was. |
| 03:51.06 | Zeal | :s |
| 03:51.09 | Montagg | Both the one that's on the lonely server and the other with 10 friends. |
| 03:51.11 | Tekkub | I wish they'd open Xfers from Illidan to a PvE realm so I could get me 30ish toons off there |
| 03:51.23 | Tekkub | </3 PvP servers |
| 03:51.24 | Montagg | 19 characters on the account total. |
| 03:51.37 | Zeal | same Tekkub |
| 03:51.40 | Adys | maybe your xp bar isnt accurate? |
| 03:51.45 | Adys | try another or something? |
| 03:51.46 | Montagg | It's the default one. |
| 03:51.48 | Zeal | waiting for darkspear to open up so i can move my hunter |
| 03:51.53 | Tekkub | finally I have a reason to like you Zeal! |
| 03:51.56 | Adys | well i dont use the default one so might be an ui bug somewhere |
| 03:51.58 | Zeal | rofl |
| 03:52.04 | Tekkub | everyone always rips into me for hating PvP servers |
| 03:52.14 | Zeal | do i have aura of like on today? :P |
| 03:52.34 | Tekkub | hi, I'm here to have fun... having fun involves YOU LEAVING ME THE FUCK ALONE |
| 03:52.41 | Adys | Zeal |
| 03:52.44 | Tekkub | :) |
| 03:52.49 | Zeal | Adys |
| 03:52.51 | Adys | just tell me one thing |
| 03:52.53 | Montagg | Installed a text XP bar real fast... 22.5% |
| 03:53.03 | Adys | Why dont you like the current item boilerplate anyways? |
| 03:53.05 | Zeal | lol Tekkub |
| 03:53.07 | Tekkub | ugh I need a leveling partner since the hubby urge to level is gone |
| 03:53.11 | Montagg | This is very odd. |
| 03:53.17 | Montagg | We'll have to check back again tomorrow. |
| 03:53.19 | Kirkburn|afk | ffs, I got the flag and everyone just abandoned me |
| 03:53.20 | Tekkub | I hate the item boilerplate :) |
| 03:53.22 | Kirkburn|afk | Assholes :/ |
| 03:53.35 | Adys | Im asking zeal, tekkub |
| 03:53.51 | Tekkub | it reminds us of PvP servers, that's why |
| 03:53.56 | Zeal | the tooltip, the include code, the fact we even transclude tooltips, and then the whole layout issue we talked about yesterday. |
| 03:53.57 | Adys | lol |
| 03:54.20 | Tekkub | get us nice hover tooltips and the transcludes can go away |
| 03:54.23 | Adys | 4/10 for the rant, you do have an aura of like today |
| 03:54.25 | Tekkub | I'm totally cool with that |
| 03:54.47 | Zeal | hm? :S |
| 03:54.48 | Adys | or parsing functions tek |
| 03:54.50 | Tekkub | but transcludes are kinda like, the only thing we can get working without SOMEONE fixing shit |
| 03:54.54 | Zeal | and yeah, i want them too Tekkub |
| 03:55.07 | Zeal | well imo, we don't need them to be transcluded |
| 03:55.09 | Tekkub | *on the server |
| 03:55.09 | Adys | you guys should have babies together honestly |
| 03:55.18 | Adys | its getting scary |
| 03:55.30 | Zeal | where they are transcluded, i've pointed out the flaws in the article time and time again. |
| 03:55.30 | Tekkub | only if said babies will fix the server and leave me alone |
| 03:55.38 | Zeal | lol |
| 03:55.48 | Montagg | Fucking have the babies. Please! If they're going to fix the server, have them now. |
| 03:56.06 | Zeal | haha |
| 03:56.07 | Tekkub | not it |
| 03:56.19 | Kirkburn|afk | What a rubbish game of EotS that was :/ |
| 03:56.28 | Zeal | sounded like it Kirkburn|afk : / |
| 03:56.31 | Tekkub | EotS.... |
| 03:56.35 | Tekkub | EotShit? |
| 03:56.51 | Kirkburn|afk | The one bloody time we got the glaf, they fucking left me to die |
| 03:56.54 | Kirkburn|afk | *flag |
| 03:57.05 | Zeal | Eye of the Schlong ;) |
| 03:57.10 | Tekkub | oh, Eye of the Stupid PvP |
| 03:57.13 | Adys | thats called adoring your enemy |
| 03:57.20 | Adys | and letting them win |
| 03:57.33 | Montagg | Worst Valentine's day ever: http://www.helenair.com/articles/2007/02/15/ap/headlines/d8nagsdo0.txt |
| 03:57.45 | Kirkburn|afk | When I got the flag, I was surrounded by alliance guys. Then I started running to the base and noticed that there were about 10 hordies following me |
| 03:57.47 | Zeal | that's called all for all and one for one.. |
| 03:58.19 | Kirkburn|afk | Woot, a proper EotS now :) |
| 03:58.31 | Montagg | Eye of the Trouser Snake. |
| 03:58.47 | Zeal | 404 off that link :S |
| 03:58.52 | Adys | I didnt like eots when i tried |
| 03:58.55 | Kirkburn|afk | Fo' sho' |
| 03:59.00 | Montagg | Zeal: Seriously? Opens fo me. |
| 03:59.05 | Zeal | i've never tried it :( |
| 03:59.07 | Adys | opens for me too |
| 03:59.13 | Zeal | odd, i get 404 :S |
| 03:59.19 | Kirkburn|afk | Woot, draenei level 70 |
| 03:59.21 | Zeal | well actually not 404 |
| 03:59.24 | Tekkub | Kirk, you need to raise your rep with the Tauren... |
| 03:59.25 | Tekkub | http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/2506739.html?style=mine |
| 03:59.25 | Zeal | just timing out it seems |
| 03:59.29 | Tekkub | there's info on how to there |
| 03:59.40 | Tekkub | 3rd one down |
| 04:00.30 | Adys | Lol at "He'll be in your bed before he notices you're dead" |
| 04:01.05 | Montagg | Off for a bit. Later guys. |
| 04:02.22 | Zeal | ttyl Montagg |
| 04:02.44 | Kirkburn|afk | I'm always sodding first to the towers, too :/ |
| 04:03.48 | Hobinheim | do you guys use leveling guides? |
| 04:04.38 | Zeal | never even read one |
| 04:04.45 | Zeal | Kirkburn|afk, you're jsut too good for them ;) |
| 04:04.53 | Tekkub | I don't see much point, "Do quests" is all I needed |
| 04:05.03 | Tekkub | quests guide you to new places to level |
| 04:05.21 | Adys | the only levelling guide i used was a blacksmithing levelling guide |
| 04:05.28 | Adys | when i was levelling axesmithing on my mage |
| 04:05.34 | Tekkub | and I find when I have to read *how* to play, that defeats the point |
| 04:05.40 | Kirkburn|afk | The horde have taken ALL FOUR BASES |
| 04:06.09 | Tekkub | I like going and finding info to help with lil things, but nothing that tells me exactly what to do |
| 04:06.25 | Tekkub | <insert all your base remark> |
| 04:06.41 | Adys | tbh if you want to level fast |
| 04:06.52 | Adys | use wowhead to complete your quests |
| 04:07.04 | Adys | and have a comp good enough to support windowed mode |
| 04:07.45 | Kirkburn|afk | Wow, this is shite |
| 04:08.05 | Tekkub | people use not windowed mode? |
| 04:08.22 | Adys | the ones with bad comps yea >< |
| 04:08.48 | Adys | I love my new computer + the fact that im a mage |
| 04:08.49 | Tekkub | maybe I spent too much time in FFXI, but no game should take over the comp the way fullscreen does |
| 04:09.01 | Tekkub | FFXI intentionally crashes if you alt-tab out |
| 04:09.11 | Tekkub | they think it in some way protects from botting |
| 04:09.16 | Tekkub | fools |
| 04:09.24 | Adys | in raids its frostbolt, alt tab forums, frostbolt, alt tab, frostbolt, alt tab |
| 04:09.30 | Zeal | by pc isn't bad. but running in windowed with everything on full = low fps, 15-30 |
| 04:09.34 | Zeal | *my |
| 04:09.39 | Zeal | i'd rather have it smoother |
| 04:09.51 | Tekkub | I'm used to 15-30 FPS |
| 04:09.57 | Adys | same |
| 04:10.00 | Tekkub | I don't even know if I could squeeze more out |
| 04:10.10 | Adys | actually i am used to 5 fps with everything at the lowest |
| 04:10.12 | Zeal | lol |
| 04:10.17 | Tekkub | but I won't run FS, defeats the point of having 3 monitors |
| 04:10.19 | Adys | that was my old comp >.> |
| 04:10.25 | Tekkub | and makes it hard as fuck to code |
| 04:10.41 | Tekkub | I should get a new vid card, but meh |
| 04:10.49 | Tekkub | I still have $100 left from xmas |
| 04:11.01 | Tekkub | I currently run an Ati Rad. 98600 |
| 04:11.03 | Adys | well i do have one problem if i go fullscreen |
| 04:11.05 | Zeal | this lasagne has too much onion and mince to cheese ratio :( |
| 04:11.07 | Tekkub | *9600 |
| 04:11.18 | Adys | I can still slack in raids by spammin key 1 and falling asleep |
| 04:11.22 | Zeal | 9600? ouchy :x |
| 04:11.33 | Tekkub | yea, runs alright |
| 04:11.46 | Adys | but my ts key is next to my frostbolt key so if ppl start hearing me snoring it might go wrong |
| 04:11.53 | Tekkub | vita gives it a better score than the X700 or whatever in my new laptop :) |
| 04:11.57 | Kirkburn|afk | AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH |
| 04:12.03 | Adys | morning kirk |
| 04:12.09 | Kirkburn|afk | AKUYSKSJAHGDJ!!!! |
| 04:12.14 | Adys | fine and you? |
| 04:12.19 | Tekkub | snt huarkhtp,.h suamp uh'sr,.uh adrch 3shda .ou rapdu/crhabputha.,dc usk |
| 04:12.40 | Zeal | Kirkburn|afk got ganked, hehe. |
| 04:12.41 | Tekkub | or do you want me to yell too? |
| 04:12.53 | Adys | he didnt precise |
| 04:13.14 | Kirkburn|afk | I was well up there on the dmg list this time :) |
| 04:13.20 | Tekkub | oh I just had an idea |
| 04:13.27 | Zeal | dmg done to you right? ;) |
| 04:13.33 | Tekkub | since the only part of Denial I want is the dual blocker... |
| 04:13.37 | Kirkburn|afk | lol |
| 04:13.55 | Kirkburn|afk | I want a free for all match |
| 04:13.59 | Tekkub | and I could make it not block duels from friends and guildies to allow for easy overrides.... |
| 04:14.03 | Tekkub | *grin* |
| 04:14.08 | Tekkub | what to name it? |
| 04:14.15 | Tekkub | DualDispel? |
| 04:14.32 | Zeal | i used CareBear for that |
| 04:14.37 | Zeal | dunno if it's still going.. |
| 04:14.42 | Adys | oh tekkub |
| 04:14.47 | Kirkburn|afk | I give up, gonna play my draenei |
| 04:15.04 | Zeal | the auto remote reply was funny. people were like "omfg! you have a bot!" |
| 04:15.10 | Tekkub | I'll play your draenei all night |
| 04:15.12 | Adys | do you know of an addon that allows you to save the actionbars "clientside" sort of |
| 04:15.13 | Zeal | *emote |
| 04:15.40 | Tekkub | I've seen some Adys but I don't remember names |
| 04:15.40 | Adys | by clientside i mean that moves the buttons instead of moving what they contain |
| 04:15.43 | Adys | if you see what i mean |
| 04:15.48 | Adys | hrm |
| 04:15.51 | Tekkub | uh |
| 04:15.54 | Tekkub | now I don't |
| 04:15.55 | Zeal | do draenei have a minipet seller? :S |
| 04:16.09 | Adys | Well i dont know how they would work tho i have a few ideas |
| 04:16.24 | Adys | but all I want is be able to play the char I gave to my gf once in a while |
| 04:16.37 | Tekkub | there was one that let you save "sets" and it'd change the items on your bars when you switched sets |
| 04:16.41 | Adys | and not have to move everything around |
| 04:16.45 | Adys | hmm |
| 04:16.49 | Tekkub | like you could make a PvP set and a solo set |
| 04:16.56 | Adys | ooh |
| 04:17.06 | Adys | so i could make one "original" set and one "personnal" set |
| 04:17.07 | Tekkub | but that actually changed the items saved in each button |
| 04:17.17 | Adys | Nah I just change it back when i log off |
| 04:17.19 | Adys | no harm |
| 04:17.23 | Adys | does that work with bartender? |
| 04:17.27 | Zeal | did you not think of that Adys..? |
| 04:17.28 | Tekkub | so if you nuked the mod you'd have the last set on your bars |
| 04:17.34 | Adys | No i didnt >.> |
| 04:17.38 | Zeal | lol |
| 04:17.43 | Kirkburn|afk | Heh, look at result number 5 - http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=draenei+quest+guide&meta= |
| 04:17.45 | Tekkub | should, BT uses the default action bar items |
| 04:17.47 | Zeal | i qassumed you had but didn't want it :P |
| 04:18.01 | Adys | whats its name? |
| 04:18.05 | Tekkub | no clue |
| 04:18.17 | Zeal | hob's? |
| 04:18.26 | Adys | you probably meant n°6 :P |
| 04:18.44 | Zeal | ah yes, he showed me the initial stages of this.. |
| 04:19.03 | Adys | n°5 is an idiot registering on a hacking website to beg for a draenei levelling guide |
| 04:19.44 | Hobinheim|play | funny, i didn't write anything about the draenei |
| 04:19.48 | Hobinheim|play | or the alliance for that matter |
| 04:19.49 | Zeal | i dont think Kirkburn|afk was counting the results from the same sites ;) |
| 04:20.26 | Kirkburn|afk | (5th result for me, perhaps it might be tailored results) |
| 04:21.07 | Zeal | it's 5th without the indented results |
| 04:21.23 | Kirkburn|afk | 5th with for me :P |
| 04:23.08 | Hobinheim|play | anybody use metahud? |
| 04:23.18 | Zeal | gnomeproblem.com, tentonhammer.com(, indent), worldofwarcraft.com(, indent), edgeofnowhere.cc, wowwiki.com. :s |
| 04:23.52 | Kirkburn|afk | I just found Drysc in Exodar :) |
| 04:23.59 | Zeal | aye, hehe |
| 04:24.33 | Zeal | i would probably use nurfedui if i bothered to take the time to design something |
| 04:24.34 | Kirkburn|afk | edgeofnowhere came after for me, and 10ton and gnome were swapped. Intriguing :P |
| 04:24.38 | Adys | http://www.wowwiki.com/Category:City:Area_52 >< |
| 04:24.56 | Zeal | i still don't get anchoring, seemed like a good concept, but it's functionality is really illogical :S |
| 04:25.49 | Zeal | whats up adys? other than me thinking that cat is poorly named |
| 04:25.55 | Adys | haha |
| 04:25.59 | Adys | well its empty :P |
| 04:26.07 | Zeal | one article :p |
| 04:26.24 | Zeal | still valid imo, but i know how you all hate stubs >_> |
| 04:27.04 | Adys | nah |
| 04:27.07 | Zeal | i want my god damn netherwhelp blizzard! |
| 04:27.11 | Adys | dont have anything against this one |
| 04:27.15 | Zeal | not sending crap to them >_< |
| 04:30.35 | Kirkburn|afk | Wow, Angry ogre is such a liar |
| 04:30.43 | Kirkburn|afk | I just went in search of that naaru |
| 04:31.01 | Kirkburn|afk | Right down at the bottom of a shaft (so you'd have to specifically be going after it) |
| 04:31.42 | Kirkburn|afk | There are literally no other mobs in the vicinity |
| 04:31.57 | Kirkburn|afk | Now, as to whether it is aggresive towards the horde, I don't know |
| 04:33.21 | Adys | http://adys.stools.net/08%20WoW.mp3 love this |
| 04:35.03 | Adys | btw |
| 04:35.13 | Adys | what would you think of a Lore discussion system on wowwiki? |
| 04:35.14 | Hobinheim|play | *sigh* more load problems... |
| 04:35.18 | Adys | like a village pump for the lore |
| 04:35.33 | Hobinheim|play | it's sorta hard to work on my novella if it won't load |
| 04:35.49 | Hobinheim|play | i almost thought of just writing my guides elsewhere cuz the load was getting arg |
| 04:35.58 | Adys | it would get talk pages rid of looooong unending pointless argues more than discussions |
| 04:36.21 | Adys | and put all that in a better spot that everyone can check and participate to |
| 04:36.22 | Hobinheim|play | not sure what you mean by lore discussion system |
| 04:36.32 | Adys | I mean, regular readers dont read talk pages |
| 04:36.41 | Adys | and theres alot of interesting stuff on these talk pages sometimes |
| 04:36.44 | Hobinheim|play | what doesn't a talk page and velveeta solve, know what i'm sayin'? |
| 04:37.11 | Adys | its the fact that these discussions are not accessible unless you're lucky or watching the page |
| 04:37.30 | Hobinheim|play | wiki's in general are far from perfect |
| 04:37.36 | Hobinheim|play | it's hard to track edits... |
| 04:37.42 | Adys | thats why we can make it better |
| 04:37.47 | Adys | Look at the village pump |
| 04:37.51 | Hobinheim|play | rather, the interface can be made even easier than it is now |
| 04:37.54 | Hobinheim|play | vp is unwieldly |
| 04:37.55 | Adys | Kirkbum! |
| 04:37.59 | Hobinheim|play | not that i know how else to do it... |
| 04:38.01 | Adys | bah hes |afk |
| 04:38.43 | Kirkburn|afk | We should make it clear that the Village pump is /only/ for WoWWiki discussion |
| 04:38.53 | Zeal | adys, specific talks are still gunna end up on talk pages, dunno how it would work. |
| 04:39.18 | Zeal | village pump only really works because it can have issues that span multiple pages or don't logically fit anywhere else. |
| 04:39.40 | Adys | the point is talk pages should only concern real edits to the page |
| 04:39.41 | Kirkburn|afk | In fact we should be stricter about removing off-topic content |
| 04:39.55 | Adys | the whole discussion angry ogre started its opinions, purely opinions |
| 04:40.03 | Adys | and has nothing to do with editing the page at all |
| 04:40.08 | Zeal | well that isn't how it is atm adys |
| 04:40.17 | Zeal | if you wanna propose that, perhaps. |
| 04:40.55 | Kirkburn|afk | Actually, Zeal, the talk pages are supposed to be about the article. We do have a system set up for non article talk |
| 04:41.05 | Kirkburn|afk | Talk:Horde/Analysis |
| 04:41.12 | Kirkburn|afk | There's a template for it |
| 04:41.30 | Zeal | Kirkburn|afk, lore pertaining to the article, of which the outcome of a discussion would require a change to the article, should be on the talk page |
| 04:41.34 | Kirkburn|afk | Ah, see here for example - http://www.wowwiki.com/Talk:Draenei |
| 04:41.37 | Adys | its still (even tho in angry ogre's case its pointless) interesting to read opinions and getting up a sort of "lore discussion" pump interesting to read all these things |
| 04:41.51 | Zeal | it's still to do with the article, it still has impact on what happens to the article |
| 04:41.57 | Zeal | theres no way to seperate that |
| 04:42.05 | Adys | maybe we should categorize these analysis pages etc |
| 04:42.19 | Adys | im not saying copypaste the village pump and change its name into lore pump |
| 04:42.21 | Zeal | if angry ogre had been right, we would have been making changes to the article. |
| 04:42.41 | Zeal | so i don't see how that can be put anywhere else |
| 04:42.43 | Adys | just get up a system that gets people to talk more easily about lore |
| 04:43.19 | Adys | our reputation has been bashed on for letting lore opinions and lore facts merge into the articles |
| 04:43.29 | Adys | perhaps having a specific space for that could arrange it? |
| 04:43.39 | Adys | and by specific space i mean more than just a talk or analysis page |
| 04:43.47 | Adys | but also a system making it easier to find these pages etc |
| 04:44.18 | Adys | and also encourage it |
| 04:44.48 | Zeal | oh well, let's miss my point >_>; |
| 04:44.49 | Kirkburn|afk | Some of Angry ogres point were merely asking /about/ the subject, or expression dislike of the subject. That's not for talk pages |
| 04:45.02 | Kirkburn|afk | (arg, bad grammar, sorry) |
| 04:45.24 | Adys | just forget angry ogre for now hes an idiot anyways |
| 04:45.36 | Zeal | as part of the discussion to make changes to the article Kirkburn|afk |
| 04:45.47 | Kirkburn|afk | Not true |
| 04:45.57 | Adys | zeal, forget it |
| 04:46.01 | Adys | thats not the point |
| 04:46.02 | Kirkburn|afk | Some of his edits were about that, but not all |
| 04:46.06 | Zeal | adys, hes the prime example of how you can't split analysis and editing as they are one in the same. |
| 04:46.17 | Zeal | it is my point |
| 04:46.22 | Zeal | if you wanna ignore it, fine. |
| 04:46.26 | Adys | Analysis = opinions |
| 04:46.37 | Zeal | with the resulting being a edit to the page. |
| 04:46.39 | Kirkburn|afk | One of his edits: "Can anyone explain why Thrall has let in(and is even pleased by) evil mockeries of a paladins who obtain through their power through evil(its pratically a class requirement to be evil). Unless anyone can give a Valid reason this belongs in the controversy section." |
| 04:46.41 | Zeal | *result |
| 04:46.47 | Adys | look i dont care in fact |
| 04:47.04 | Hobinheim|play | FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT |
| 04:47.18 | Adys | what im saying is that we should make it so its easier for Joe WoWWiki Reader to find these talks |
| 04:47.31 | Zeal | i don't go on a talk page and say "oh hey, i don't like these guys because such and such" i go "oh hey, i'm not sure this is right, lets dicuss it and see if i'm right beforei make a change to the article" |
| 04:47.46 | Kirkburn|afk | Zeal, read that edit I posted |
| 04:47.53 | Kirkburn|afk | That is in no way relevant to the article |
| 04:48.15 | Zeal | wtf, Kirkburn|afk, thats completely relvent |
| 04:48.35 | Zeal | his talking about moving something on the article because it lacks a reference |
| 04:48.47 | Zeal | and thus hes asked for one before making the change. |
| 04:48.53 | Kirkburn|afk | WHAT change? |
| 04:49.04 | *** join/#wowwiki Sky2042 (n=rawsonat@c-24-21-36-57.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 04:49.05 | Zeal | "this belongs in the controversy section." |
| 04:49.14 | Sky2042 | mmm, done adys |
| 04:49.14 | Kirkburn|afk | Yes, WHAT change? |
| 04:49.17 | Sky2042 | :) |
| 04:49.22 | Adys | aye seen that sky |
| 04:49.22 | Kirkburn|afk | Hey Sky |
| 04:49.31 | Zeal | he wanted to move something from the body of the article there. |
| 04:49.38 | Sky2042 | evening (morning to you? ;p) |
| 04:49.46 | Kirkburn|afk | Zeal, he didn't say that |
| 04:50.03 | Zeal | wow.. have i just plucked that out of thin air? ¬_¬ |
| 04:50.12 | Kirkburn|afk | he asked a question about Thrall, then said "this belongs in the controversy section" |
| 04:50.22 | Kirkburn|afk | Where's the actual /change/ he wants?! |
| 04:50.36 | Adys | sooo |
| 04:50.44 | Zeal | "Unless anyone can give a Valid reason this belongs in the controversy section." |
| 04:50.50 | Adys | for this idea about a Lore discussion system... |
| 04:50.54 | Zeal | give reference, otherwise i'm moving this |
| 04:51.03 | Zeal | he could have simply put {{fact}} |
| 04:51.08 | Adys | le sigh |
| 04:52.08 | Sky2042 | lol |
| 04:52.12 | Sky2042 | ogre again? |
| 04:52.54 | Zeal | adys, i'm for it, but not in the concept you and Kirkburn|afk have put forward. lore discussion in the context of the article, where it has impact on the article (would require edits and such) belongs on the talk page. normal lore topics, coming up with theories etc, could go on the page you want.. but it wouldn't be many. |
| 04:53.23 | Zeal | i'd probably suggest using it to draw attention to lore discussion on article talk pages along side actually discussions taking place on it. |
| 04:53.27 | Adys | if you remove all the subjects that have an article with a talk page from the concept you end up with nothing zeal. |
| 04:53.32 | Zeal | nah Sky2042. |
| 04:53.39 | Zeal | and hey btw, sorry, was mid-rant :P |
| 04:54.20 | Sky2042 | :P. why not just make a section on the page itself with ==Speculation== "For speculation on this mob/person etc, see the [[discussion]] page? |
| 04:54.22 | Zeal | which was my point adys.. you can't remvoe them from the talk pages, so there is much in the way of what could go on there. |
| 04:54.53 | Zeal | but using it to draw attention to important discussions of lore would be beneficial. |
| 04:55.01 | Kirkburn|afk | (btw, I kinda see what Angry was wanting now, but he said it in such a stupid way...) |
| 04:55.03 | Zeal | which i'm all for. |
| 04:55.10 | Zeal | he did Kirkburn|afk, yes. |
| 04:55.25 | Zeal | it's typical ogre :p |
| 04:55.31 | Sky2042 | ^^ |
| 04:56.06 | Sky2042 | how do you /e on mirc? :/ |
| 04:56.19 | Adys | ./me ? |
| 04:56.22 | Sky2042 | -_- |
| 04:56.40 | Hobinheim|play | Kunchinose: Torouto Man Itaa! |
| 04:56.51 | Adys | infobot, beer for everyone |
| 04:56.52 | infobot | ACTION deftly decants a fine Dogfishhead 90min IPA for for everyone |
| 04:57.03 | Adys | learn to grammar ffs |
| 04:57.07 | Sky2042 | lol |
| 04:57.41 | Adys | I just had my lunch dude |
| 04:58.00 | Sky2042 | :/ it's 21:00 here... >.> |
| 04:58.08 | *** join/#wowwiki EricBetts (n=bettse@tachikoma.scf.oregonstate.edu) |
| 04:58.10 | Adys | Its 6am here |
| 04:58.19 | Zeal | 5am here :p |
| 04:58.28 | Sky2042 | whytf are you guys up so damn early? :/ |
| 04:58.39 | Zeal | night owls.. |
| 04:58.44 | Adys | Im on a new sleeping routine here |
| 04:58.50 | Sky2042 | o.o |
| 04:58.54 | Adys | I sleep about 4 hours every 10-11 hours |
| 04:58.57 | Adys | its great i think |
| 04:59.24 | Hobinheim|play | it's... |
| 04:59.27 | Sky2042 | good schedule, and there was a study somewhere that said 2x4hour sleeping shifts is better for your health than 1x8hours... |
| 04:59.29 | Hobinheim|play | almsot midnight |
| 04:59.45 | Sky2042 | i can't cite that though... ;p |
| 04:59.58 | Adys | where ever it is its gotta be true |
| 05:00.03 | Adys | I feel really great |
| 05:00.20 | Adys | i used to have headaches and be tired regularly before i adopted this |
| 05:00.51 | Zeal | me.. i run on a 26 hour day ;) |
| 05:00.59 | Hobinheim|play | polyphasic sleep |
| 05:01.01 | Zeal | i sleep for about 10 hours |
| 05:01.12 | Hobinheim|play | to subdivide your sleep into smaller portions scattered throughout the day |
| 05:01.18 | Zeal | stay up for the other 16, lol. |
| 05:01.18 | Hobinheim|play | it's popular on the internet |
| 05:01.30 | Zeal | aye, you do get benefits from it |
| 05:01.31 | Hobinheim|play | and has virtually no scientific research to back it up |
| 05:01.44 | Sky2042 | lol |
| 05:01.57 | EricBetts | Long time reader, first time chatter; just wanted to thank the wowwiki editors and contributers for giving me something to do while not paying attention in class. and for using freenode for this chan :) |
| 05:02.00 | Sky2042 | i'd personally rather have 2x4 :( |
| 05:02.10 | Sky2042 | welcome! :) |
| 05:02.12 | Zeal | lol, hey EricBetts, ty |
| 05:02.14 | Montagg | I'd heard some weird sleep schedule where you slept three three hour cycles, but you were up at such odd hours that it was infeasible for people, and in order to start it you had to do a week of nasty sleep deprevation. |
| 05:02.23 | Zeal | there are hob |
| 05:02.27 | Zeal | plenty |
| 05:02.32 | Montagg | But overall you had more time awake, and you were more energized. |
| 05:02.50 | Adys | EricBetts: lol |
| 05:02.56 | Montagg | EricBetts: Glad to have you. =c) |
| 05:02.56 | Adys | enjoy your time |
| 05:03.08 | Zeal | yeah monthagg.. sadly because of typical work schedules.. it's just not pratical |
| 05:03.10 | Sky2042 | in hell.... MUAHAHAHAHAHHAA |
| 05:03.11 | Zeal | and people suffer for it |
| 05:03.12 | Sky2042 | :D |
| 05:03.25 | *** part/#wowwiki Hobinheim|play (n=Hobinhei@c-69-142-120-32.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) |
| 05:03.27 | Zeal | most people i know usually end up sleeping for 2-3 hours after getting home from work. |
| 05:03.58 | Adys | Im inactive atm |
| 05:04.15 | Adys | and such a free time sometimes makes me not want to get a job |
| 05:04.17 | Zeal | i'm unemployed, so woot for sleep. |
| 05:04.28 | Sky2042 | i wouldnt quite say its polyphasic sleep as wikipedia has it down... :/ |
| 05:04.43 | Sky2042 | which is where he was pulling his info from, i think |
| 05:04.48 | Adys | How many times has it been voted sky2042? |
| 05:04.51 | Adys | j/k |
| 05:05.11 | Zeal | no sky, but my point is because of work hours, people don't get enough time to sleep properly, let alone lead a life. |
| 05:05.23 | Zeal | oh not to me.. bah |
| 05:05.24 | Zeal | lol |
| 05:05.25 | Sky2042 | huh? |
| 05:05.27 | Sky2042 | lol |
| 05:05.54 | Zeal | i do have a headache right now though because i stayed up too long last night.. |
| 05:05.59 | Montagg | Kirkburn|afk: I need your advice on the Ogre. |
| 05:06.02 | Montagg | http://www.wowwiki.com/Talk:Blood_knight |
| 05:06.03 | Sky2042 | has what been voted? (adys) |
| 05:06.51 | Sky2042 | one of you moved that to his talk page (either mont or kirk)... answer there if you're going to answer, imo |
| 05:06.59 | Montagg | I've removed the comments twice so far since Ragestorm has considered the topic of the blood elves being irrevocably evil closed. Angry's discussing Thrall's point of view, pretty much using the same language. |
| 05:07.02 | Zeal | Montagg, i'm in agreement with him (not his points, just what should be done) |
| 05:07.29 | Zeal | i'll give a reason against it though. |
| 05:07.36 | Sky2042 | oh boy... here we go again |
| 05:07.38 | Sky2042 | ;p |
| 05:07.38 | Montagg | Zeal: My biggest problem is that there is no open recognition of paladins within the game itself. |
| 05:07.59 | Adys | Sky2042: the vote thing was a joke dont worry |
| 05:08.07 | Montagg | You go through a quest where Thrall officially welcomes blood elves to the Horde, but there's never anything to do with paladins. |
| 05:08.22 | Sky2042 | adys: okkkkkkkkkkkk. >.> |
| 05:10.00 | Adys | ffs getting annoying |
| 05:10.28 | Adys | I need three database websites |
| 05:10.37 | Adys | wowhead for the item informations |
| 05:10.41 | Adys | allakhazam for the icons |
| 05:10.44 | Adys | and thottbot for the spells |
| 05:10.46 | Adys | ARGH |
| 05:11.12 | Sky|Calculus_hw | lol! ownt |
| 05:11.26 | Zeal | aye montag |
| 05:11.30 | Zeal | he's speculating |
| 05:11.34 | Zeal | i gave my reply. |
| 05:11.52 | Adys | interesting |
| 05:11.55 | Adys | zeal, check that |
| 05:11.57 | Adys | http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=28212 |
| 05:12.07 | Adys | and then, with the effect template, check that |
| 05:12.08 | Adys | http://www.wowwiki.com/Aran%27s_Sorcerous_Slacks |
| 05:12.26 | Montagg | Zeal: I'm looking for discussion that says Thrall doesn't actually know it's happening, because this has come up in the past. |
| 05:12.41 | Zeal | possible too Montagg |
| 05:12.50 | Zeal | though tbh, the belves ar rather open about it |
| 05:12.52 | Montagg | I know I read this somewhere... |
| 05:13.00 | Zeal | and each faction has seen it happening. |
| 05:13.13 | Zeal | so i don't see it being likely. |
| 05:13.22 | Montagg | They're opening about being paladins, but they keep M'uru chained below the city. He's not center stage for a reason. |
| 05:13.26 | Zeal | *faction's emisary |
| 05:13.34 | Montagg | Does the tour go down there? |
| 05:13.40 | Kirkburn|afk | I somewhat doubt it! |
| 05:13.41 | Zeal | nope, but it's not off limits |
| 05:13.57 | Montagg | To the player, of course, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything lore-wise. |
| 05:14.14 | Karrion | I had a feeling there was chat text in the tour that made it sound like they were being shepherded quite carefully by the BE's... |
| 05:14.14 | Zeal | i'm talking on context of lore, theres nothing to suggest they wouldn't have been able to see it. |
| 05:14.24 | Kirkburn|afk | Difficult to code it being open to BEs and not the rest of the Horde |
| 05:14.32 | Zeal | not that i recall Kirkburn|afk |
| 05:14.42 | Zeal | *Karrion |
| 05:15.20 | Zeal | and hey, plenty of talk going on fro mthe palas about it. |
| 05:15.28 | Zeal | *on from |
| 05:15.40 | Kirkburn|afk | Damn, I forgot to buy myself a crossbow |
| 05:15.50 | Zeal | adys, what ya trying to show me? that i'm right? :P |
| 05:16.01 | Adys | No that you're partly right |
| 05:16.11 | Adys | the link was still good |
| 05:16.25 | Zeal | hm? |
| 05:16.27 | Adys | and there is absolutely no way that wowhead just linked it "by luck" |
| 05:16.28 | *** join/#wowwiki Ali``` (n=aghareza@65.248.237.166) |
| 05:16.35 | Zeal | alla don't link spellitems |
| 05:16.40 | Adys | oh sorry |
| 05:16.43 | Adys | its wowhead link |
| 05:16.43 | Zeal | you linked me alla.. lol |
| 05:16.46 | Adys | http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28212 |
| 05:16.55 | Zeal | and as i've said, these guys get it wrong.. so yes |
| 05:17.05 | Zeal | evne if they are not directly wrong, they links are |
| 05:17.15 | Zeal | as that is not the spell being used. |
| 05:17.22 | Adys | No you simply cant get something right just by being lucky on there |
| 05:17.30 | Adys | here is my opinion |
| 05:17.31 | Zeal | it's the spellitem being used. |
| 05:17.53 | Adys | but they have to be linked to eachother a way or another |
| 05:18.13 | Kirkburn|afk | As a PvE warrior, what talents should I start off with? |
| 05:18.23 | Adys | improved taunt |
| 05:18.24 | Zeal | adys.. what you need to find out is the relationship between spellitem and spell.. until you find that out, i won't accept a definitive answer, especially one based on "oh, they're doing it" |
| 05:18.24 | Adys | :P |
| 05:18.35 | Kirkburn|afk | >.< |
| 05:19.10 | Adys | Zeal, did you even check if there was a field on the dbcs that could contain a "shorter description" of a spell? |
| 05:19.25 | Zeal | i couldn't find any link between spellitem or spell personally, but i'm giving the benefit of the doubt until someone else can varify. |
| 05:19.28 | Adys | Like a secondary description, used only for socketbonus |
| 05:19.33 | Zeal | yes Adys |
| 05:19.36 | Zeal | there is no such field |
| 05:19.52 | Adys | Ill get searching then |
| 05:19.52 | Zeal | nor is there a lookup field to spellitem to use it. |
| 05:21.10 | Zeal | alla call the spellitem id for theirs |
| 05:21.12 | Karrion | Kirkburn|afk: Cruelty, deflection |
| 05:21.17 | Zeal | going by the xml |
| 05:22.32 | Zeal | and they keep them seperate |
| 05:25.50 | Montagg | Zeal: I put a link to [[Blood elf controversy]] in the article. There's a section there regarding paladins. Hopefully that'll pacify the beast. |
| 05:26.10 | Zeal | lol. i saw |
| 05:26.38 | Zeal | awww you called me sane ;) |
| 05:26.45 | Sky|Calculus_hw | that you are not |
| 05:26.50 | Sky|Calculus_hw | ;p |
| 05:26.57 | Zeal | lol |
| 05:27.32 | Montagg | Compared to some. ;-) |
| 05:27.42 | Sky|Calculus_hw | not compared to varg... :x |
| 05:27.54 | Montagg | "Crazy" is different than "insane." |
| 05:28.00 | Sky|Calculus_hw | lol |
| 05:28.00 | Zeal | lol Montagg, i didn;t even look to see what was there already |
| 05:28.07 | Zeal | but cool |
| 05:28.26 | Zeal | if that doesn't settle him, then he can go moan about something else. |
| 05:28.43 | Montagg | Which he will. |
| 05:29.08 | Montagg | And if it doesn't have to do with the blood elves being evil, that's fine. |
| 05:29.11 | Sky|Calculus_hw | hey, at least hes moaning and not vandalizing ;p |
| 05:29.26 | *** join/#wowwiki Kaso (n=Kaso@resnet01.nat.lancs.ac.uk) |
| 05:29.37 | Montagg | Sky|Calculus_hw: He could be a lot worse, definitely. |
| 05:32.07 | Adys | Zeal: Maybe you will be able to find something more with that? http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28461 |
| 05:32.47 | Zeal | wowhead don't have a xml link do they? |
| 05:32.55 | Adys | dont think so |
| 05:32.58 | Zeal | : / |
| 05:33.06 | Zeal | in which case, doesn't tell me anything new |
| 05:33.15 | Zeal | only that wowhead are linking to the wrong spell. |
| 05:33.40 | Adys | Im wondering HOW the client can link to the wrong spell then |
| 05:33.50 | Zeal | displaying one spell, but linking to another. |
| 05:33.57 | Zeal | client? |
| 05:34.04 | Adys | the site sorry |
| 05:34.04 | Zeal | who said anything about the client? :s |
| 05:34.22 | Adys | there has to be something that gave the ID to link to this "wrong" spell |
| 05:34.36 | Zeal | indeed |
| 05:34.41 | Zeal | but i've not seen it. |
| 05:35.43 | Zeal | tried checking to string values first to see, then checked for lookups to spellitem, which is the spell text they used on the item, but nothing linking it to spells |
| 05:36.27 | Adys | the only thing that i can think of is wowhead making it up and seeing that the spell effects are the same so messing it up |
| 05:36.39 | Adys | but that would be done on purpose and i doubt theyd do that tbh |
| 05:36.46 | Zeal | indeed |
| 05:36.48 | Adys | but will see, I sent wowhead an email |
| 05:36.51 | Zeal | its what thott have done too |
| 05:37.15 | Adys | meh come on |
| 05:37.23 | Adys | there cant possible be TWO websites making it up |
| 05:37.28 | Adys | pff |
| 05:37.29 | Zeal | but alla don't. they don't link, but they do keep the two seperate and lookup with the spellitem. i can't check that on the other sites though. |
| 05:37.53 | Adys | they have spellitems on alla? |
| 05:37.55 | Adys | gief link |
| 05:38.02 | Zeal | so as far as alla is concerned, there is no link |
| 05:38.13 | Zeal | i can't find the spell items, but i can see they are a seperate |
| 05:38.15 | Adys | well how can you be sure they keep them separate |
| 05:38.33 | Zeal | because spell ids overlap with spellitem ids |
| 05:38.40 | Adys | where? |
| 05:38.45 | Adys | give me an example |
| 05:38.48 | Adys | because you lost me |
| 05:39.00 | Adys | how can you see their spellitem ids? |
| 05:39.29 | Zeal | http://wow.allakhazam.com/dev/wow/item-xml.pl?witem=28212 look at socketbonus tag |
| 05:39.39 | Zeal | that's a spellitem id, not a spellid. |
| 05:40.01 | Adys | aah |
| 05:40.02 | Adys | hm |
| 05:40.21 | Adys | in which dbc are the spellitem ids? |
| 05:40.37 | Zeal | spellitem.dbc iirc one sec :P |
| 05:41.23 | Adys | got spellitemenchantment.dbc and spellitemenchantmentcondition.dbc |
| 05:41.36 | Zeal | first one |
| 05:42.10 | Adys | whats the other one for? |
| 05:42.11 | Adys | I cant open it |
| 05:42.58 | Zeal | i haven't explored it much |
| 05:43.04 | Zeal | but no strings |
| 05:43.44 | Zeal | hardly any rows to it |
| 05:43.45 | Zeal | like 20 |
| 05:43.55 | Adys | ok |
| 05:44.42 | Adys | http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=32195 |
| 05:44.45 | Adys | explain me that |
| 05:45.01 | Zeal | what about it? :s |
| 05:45.07 | Adys | well its a spell link |
| 05:45.12 | Adys | it has a spell description |
| 05:45.22 | Adys | yet its used by only one thing |
| 05:45.29 | Adys | thats the gem |
| 05:45.46 | Adys | so they cant be "making it up by pure luck" |
| 05:45.50 | Adys | there HAS to be a relation |
| 05:45.52 | Adys | somewhere |
| 05:45.56 | Zeal | hm.wel for starters, is the item really like that? |
| 05:46.07 | Adys | Here is my theory |
| 05:46.20 | Zeal | oddly it is, haha |
| 05:46.34 | Adys | the "&" is a part of the items normal process |
| 05:46.41 | Adys | a normal item would have a linejump |
| 05:46.53 | Adys | gems and spellitems have an & |
| 05:47.14 | Adys | the critical strike rating i dont know, i think its becoming an attribute like str/stam/agi/etc |
| 05:47.25 | Zeal | anyways.. |
| 05:47.35 | Zeal | on alla i can't find the spellitem link |
| 05:47.41 | Zeal | i think that's going by gem id |
| 05:47.52 | Adys | meh I dont know |
| 05:48.02 | Adys | bah this is annoying |
| 05:48.13 | Adys | we will know more when wowhead will answer hopefully if they do |
| 05:48.19 | Zeal | id = 2830 |
| 05:48.51 | Adys | wtf? |
| 05:48.52 | Zeal | yep, thats correct, it's a spellitem id |
| 05:48.59 | Adys | Go to |
| 05:48.59 | Zeal | with the same text |
| 05:49.01 | Adys | LOL |
| 05:49.13 | Adys | thats not a spellitem id thats a fucking line ID |
| 05:49.16 | Adys | field 11 |
| 05:49.18 | Adys | here you got it |
| 05:49.22 | Zeal | hm? |
| 05:49.34 | Adys | Line 2830, Field 11 of this stupid DBC |
| 05:49.38 | Adys | "32195" |
| 05:49.39 | Zeal | gemid = lookup for spellitemid |
| 05:50.04 | Adys | and field 13 = +12 Critical Strike Rating & 5% Snare and Root Resist |
| 05:50.11 | Adys | what are you talking about you cant find it? |
| 05:50.25 | Zeal | its not a line, its the id |
| 05:50.37 | Zeal | i'm not even using a application with lines :P |
| 05:50.51 | Adys | with normal application id = line >.> |
| 05:51.01 | Adys | w/e |
| 05:51.17 | Zeal | i need to mark that as a lookup now.. give me a sec |
| 05:51.52 | Adys | Dude Field 11 here you have your spell relation thing |
| 05:51.59 | Adys | Here is something tougher tho |
| 05:52.00 | Adys | http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=32837 |
| 05:52.10 | Adys | ID 2828 |
| 05:52.20 | *** join/#wowwiki Kaso (n=Kaso@resnet01.nat.lancs.ac.uk) |
| 05:52.25 | Adys | Field 11 = 0 |
| 05:52.33 | Adys | but field 10 = 32837 |
| 05:52.40 | Adys | now Im lost again |
| 05:52.51 | Zeal | lol |
| 05:53.02 | Zeal | dude.. download DBCTools off curse ;) |
| 05:53.07 | Zeal | simplified everything |
| 05:53.14 | Zeal | *simplifies |
| 05:53.22 | Adys | what does it do mwcs cant do? |
| 05:53.23 | Zeal | *Tool |
| 05:53.30 | Zeal | never used mwcs |
| 05:53.33 | Adys | I like useful tools but I prefer stuff up to date |
| 05:53.39 | Adys | and mwcs is constantly up to date |
| 05:53.40 | *** join/#wowwiki Kaso (n=Kaso@resnet01.nat.lancs.ac.uk) |
| 05:54.01 | Zeal | but it can definie lookups, search for lookups, name fields, detect value types (intger, signed integer, string, float etc) |
| 05:54.11 | Adys | fair enough ill have a look |
| 05:54.12 | Adys | anyways |
| 05:54.22 | Adys | wtf is up with field 10 and 11? why does it use two |
| 05:54.56 | Zeal | which table? |
| 05:55.24 | Adys | ID 2828 the field used is field 10 |
| 05:55.36 | Zeal | yeah.. while dbc file? :P |
| 05:55.40 | Adys | ID 2830 the field used is field 11 |
| 05:55.44 | Adys | field 10 being "32" |
| 05:55.52 | Adys | spellitemenchantment |
| 05:55.55 | Zeal | *which dbc |
| 05:55.56 | Zeal | lol kk |
| 05:56.40 | Zeal | lol |
| 05:56.41 | Adys | i really wonder how blizzard can make all this shit to work |
| 05:56.44 | Zeal | 10 you say? |
| 05:56.46 | Adys | yes |
| 05:57.17 | Adys | 2828 is 10 2830 is 11 |
| 05:57.23 | Adys | same goes for some others |
| 05:57.28 | Zeal | 14 contains the spell descriptions |
| 05:57.46 | Zeal | 10 and 11 contains what appear to be lookups, but neither one matched spell when i tried. |
| 05:58.18 | Zeal | sounds like mwcs's definitions are outdated |
| 05:58.31 | Zeal | which is why i like this, as you make your own. |
| 05:58.49 | Adys | Well outdated or not they seem pretty correct |
| 05:58.52 | Zeal | DBC->CSV is also outdated btw. |
| 05:59.01 | Adys | never used that |
| 05:59.04 | Zeal | kk :p |
| 05:59.21 | Adys | well actually ive been searching for a while for a working two sided converter >.> but meh |
| 05:59.33 | Zeal | let me load spell and retry the lookup |
| 05:59.53 | Zeal | yeah, i've not seen a CSV->DBC : / |
| 06:00.00 | Zeal | but i'm not really intersted in using it |
| 06:00.13 | Adys | I am if that matters :P and have seen plenty they just dont work |
| 06:00.15 | Zeal | there is one, as priv servers use it. |
| 06:00.49 | Zeal | ok, that lookup failed.. 8 misses |
| 06:01.02 | Adys | My lookup is bigger than your |
| 06:01.04 | Adys | +s |
| 06:01.09 | Zeal | as did the next one.. |
| 06:01.31 | Zeal | O_o |
| 06:01.55 | Adys | offtopic but http://www.wowwiki.com/index.php?title=Instance_attunement&curid=73687&diff=501916&oldid=501850&rcid=412534 what the hell?N |
| 06:02.12 | Adys | how can you get friendly with scale of sands before being attuned to hyjal? |
| 06:02.46 | Zeal | no idea.. dunno whats what |
| 06:03.37 | Adys | http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10730 LOL |
| 06:04.33 | *** join/#wowwiki dok3Dal (n=dok@AStrasbourg-251-1-65-44.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 06:04.54 | Adys | anyways zeal |
| 06:04.58 | Adys | hows your lookup going?:p |
| 06:05.35 | Adys | at least its a mystery solved |
| 06:06.41 | Zeal | no lookup from what i can see |
| 06:07.14 | Zeal | closest thing it found was spell ID, and that had 8 misses. |
| 06:07.36 | Kirkburn|afk | Jebus, these Vista nVidia drivers are shite |
| 06:07.46 | Zeal | but practically anything can get those results, just to put it in perspective |
| 06:07.59 | Zeal | as spell id contains the most values of any dbc :p |
| 06:08.11 | Zeal | lol Kirkburn|afk |
| 06:08.52 | Kirkburn|afk | They crash for no apparent reason |
| 06:08.58 | Kirkburn|afk | They recover each time at least |
| 06:08.59 | Zeal | whats funny about the link Adys. quest info missing? :s |
| 06:09.04 | Adys | No |
| 06:09.06 | Kirkburn|afk | Though I think I've been hearing my gfx card lock up |
| 06:09.10 | Adys | the fact it gives scale of sands rep |
| 06:09.15 | Adys | its not supposed to |
| 06:09.16 | Zeal | how do you hear that? |
| 06:09.24 | Adys | "click" |
| 06:09.25 | Zeal | how come? |
| 06:09.25 | Kirkburn|afk | Clicking and buzzing |
| 06:09.42 | Zeal | hm.. never had that :s |
| 06:09.50 | Adys | you know the first 10 seconds of the song "Money"? |
| 06:09.52 | Zeal | poor person, lol |
| 06:09.54 | Kirkburn|afk | It sorts itself after about 3 seconds, everything continues as normal |
| 06:09.57 | Adys | if your card makes this sound then you're screwed |
| 06:10.26 | Kirkburn|afk | I'm pretty sure it's the drivers |
| 06:10.30 | Adys | actually |
| 06:10.40 | Adys | ive had something very odd with my ati card since a while |
| 06:10.41 | Zeal | i think my gfx card ot nb fan is rattling now and then, but all small fans do that eventually, much to my annoyance. |
| 06:10.55 | Adys | on computer startup the fan makes an odd loud sound, like if it was hitting a cable |
| 06:10.56 | Zeal | *or nb |
| 06:11.02 | Adys | and after 10-15 seconds it stops |
| 06:11.07 | Adys | and comes back to normal |
| 06:11.13 | Zeal | repeated hitting? |
| 06:11.23 | Adys | Aye like if it was hitting a cable with its pales |
| 06:11.28 | Adys | i checked, theres nothing in there |
| 06:11.30 | Kirkburn|afk | Adys, i get the EXACT same thing |
| 06:11.33 | Adys | seriously? |
| 06:11.35 | Zeal | yeah.. the draded small fan rattle |
| 06:11.36 | Kirkburn|afk | Yup |
| 06:11.42 | Zeal | *dreaded |
| 06:11.42 | Kirkburn|afk | I hit it a few times, and it stops |
| 06:11.47 | Zeal | happens to all small fans : / |
| 06:11.48 | Kirkburn|afk | *Only* on start-up |
| 06:11.52 | Adys | Aye |
| 06:12.07 | Zeal | mines on start up, shut down and rare random occasions |
| 06:12.19 | Adys | well yours is whinier, zeal |
| 06:12.21 | Adys | since its yours. |
| 06:12.23 | Adys | nvm |
| 06:12.23 | Zeal | one of the hdd compartment fans does it too.. |
| 06:13.03 | Adys | well at least im glad its a common problem |
| 06:13.27 | Zeal | adys, imma check lookups for all the item dbc's |
| 06:13.36 | Zeal | as it might have a recursive lookup like gems.. |
| 06:13.44 | Adys | lol |
| 06:13.55 | Adys | i was just kidding with the fan thing you know |
| 06:13.57 | Adys | dont take it bad |
| 06:13.58 | Zeal | well not like gems |
| 06:14.04 | Zeal | but similar concept. |
| 06:14.07 | Zeal | lol |
| 06:14.11 | Zeal | take it bad? :p |
| 06:14.17 | Adys | :P |
| 06:14.30 | Adys | gonna go to bed for a hour or two before the sun invades my room |
| 06:14.38 | Zeal | i can take well mannered jokes ;) |
| 06:14.44 | Zeal | lol kk. ttyl |
| 06:14.48 | Adys | you must be used to it |
| 06:14.57 | Adys | :P |
| 06:14.58 | Zeal | surprisingly, no |
| 06:15.17 | Adys | lies and slanders =) nn all |
| 06:15.44 | Zeal | my friends have a big joke about my dislike for FF7, saying i didn't get out of midgar, while they all did. |
| 06:15.49 | *** join/#wowwiki Tekkub (n=tekkub@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Featured/Dongle/Tekkub) |
| 06:15.49 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Tekkub] by ChanServ |
| 06:16.00 | Zeal | pretty much like saying, i didn't get out of valley of trials as an orc.. lol |
| 06:16.16 | Zeal | wb Tekkub |
| 06:22.08 | Zeal | oo i just found a new version.. |
| 06:34.12 | Zeal | not a new version, its an app by the same name which is actually worse.. |
| 06:46.19 | Kirkburn|afk | Just been reading up on the Neowin forums for the last hour or so. I feel I have to mention something - when you get Vista do NOT, for the love of all that is holy, turn of UAC |
| 06:46.30 | Kirkburn|afk | *off |
| 06:47.28 | Kirkburn|afk | (oh and *currently* IE7 is by far the safest browser for Vista, but that'll change when the other browsers implement Protected Mode) |
| 06:51.57 | Kirkburn|afk | There are some scarily stupid people out there - there was one guy who is head of a college's IT network. He thinks that a firewall and 'common sense' is all that is required to be safe on the internet. |
| 06:52.13 | Zeal | Kirkburn|afk, that's all i use ;) |
| 06:52.23 | Zeal | why not turn it off? |
| 06:52.44 | Zeal | and iirc, turning it off still forces it's use, but it can be disabled with a work around. |
| 06:52.48 | Kirkburn|afk | That means no spyware programs, no anti-virus, no windows defender |
| 06:53.08 | Zeal | windows defenders comes as standard with vista O_o |
| 06:53.14 | Zeal | *defender |
| 06:53.15 | Kirkburn|afk | A firewall does not stop a malicious program from executing |
| 06:53.25 | Kirkburn|afk | Yes, and this person is /that/ stupid |
| 06:53.33 | Zeal | no, but common sense stops malicious software ever getting there |
| 06:53.36 | *** join/#wowwiki hoka_ (n=hoka@ip70-187-179-143.oc.oc.cox.net) |
| 06:53.51 | Kirkburn|afk | Not neccessarily - you can get malicious code from visiting a website |
| 06:54.04 | Zeal | i've never once had that happen |
| 06:54.14 | Kirkburn|afk | No, but that doesn't mean it doesn't occur |
| 06:54.24 | Zeal | common sense once again |
| 06:54.30 | Kirkburn|afk | The guy was saying "he's never had a problem in 17 years", as if that actually meant something |
| 06:54.42 | sancus | you can't get malicious code from visiting a website |
| 06:54.47 | sancus | unless you're using a browser with an unpatched vulnerability |
| 06:54.51 | Zeal | btw, is this on his own pc or the college's? |
| 06:54.58 | sancus | which is pretty fucking unusual especially if you use firefox |
| 06:54.58 | Zeal | aye sancus |
| 06:55.01 | Kirkburn|afk | On his own fortunately! |
| 06:55.11 | Zeal | on his, i think he's right |
| 06:55.12 | Kirkburn|afk | sancus, yeah, I don't dispute that :) |
| 06:55.17 | Zeal | in a network situation, no. |
| 06:55.28 | sancus | I don't use a firewall and never have |
| 06:55.30 | Kirkburn|afk | The only reason he doesn't do it on his network is because they won't let him :/ |
| 06:55.47 | Zeal | i've never had it happen, but i keep up to date with scruity fixes and don't visit sites stupid enough to try it. |
| 06:56.01 | Kirkburn|afk | sancus, you don't have a firewall? You surely have to be kidding |
| 06:56.12 | Zeal | aye |
| 06:56.16 | sancus | what for |
| 06:56.26 | sancus | there's the NAT router in the middle, it's plenty :) |
| 06:56.38 | Kirkburn|afk | Well that's essentially a firewall, phew :) |
| 06:56.42 | sancus | even without it, if your ports are properly closed, and your shit is up to date |
| 06:56.44 | Zeal | yeah.. |
| 06:56.45 | sancus | theres not really any risk |
| 06:56.57 | Kirkburn|afk | sancus, is FF likely to be implementing Vista's protected mode soon? |
| 06:57.01 | sancus | no idea |
| 06:57.05 | Kirkburn|afk | kk |
| 06:57.06 | sancus | I dont even know what protected mode is |
| 06:57.19 | Kirkburn|afk | Basically it prevents the browser from doing /anything/ outside it's own sandbox |
| 06:57.27 | Zeal | i'd imagine, ff respecting the user privlages of vista :p |
| 06:57.35 | Kirkburn|afk | it gets access to the temp files and that's about it |
| 06:58.02 | sancus | I see |
| 06:58.04 | sancus | vlad would know |
| 06:58.09 | sancus | but he's not here right now |
| 06:58.18 | Zeal | thing is Kirkburn|afk.. are you saying, ff needs to stop attempting to do things outside.. or to stop doing things outside.. as if it's the latter.. wtf is the point in protected mode if apps still can? |
| 06:58.34 | sancus | and I still don't really think a firewall is essential if you're up to date with fixes and you don't have ports open that don't need to be |
| 06:58.42 | Kirkburn|afk | Since IE/FF are directly 'connected' to the internet |
| 06:58.53 | sancus | of course |
| 06:59.01 | Kirkburn|afk | Most apps don't have anything to do with the net |
| 06:59.11 | Zeal | yeah but sometines exploits > security fixes |
| 06:59.13 | sancus | those two latter things are not necessarily going to be the case on a machine run by someone who doesnt know what they're doing |
| 06:59.24 | Zeal | ie they coem out before them |
| 06:59.36 | Zeal | lsass for example. |
| 06:59.38 | sancus | that's pretty unusual with windows services that have open ports |
| 06:59.43 | Kirkburn|afk | Essentially UAC is system-wide protection, and Protected Mode is even stricter protection for browsers |
| 06:59.53 | sancus | I ran without a firewall for like |
| 07:00.08 | sancus | 3 years from 2002-2005 or so before I needed to NAT |
| 07:00.17 | Zeal | same |
| 07:00.18 | sancus | was fine |
| 07:00.25 | Zeal | though i used norton for a period |
| 07:00.26 | Kirkburn|afk | Fair enough, but just because you were safe then shouldn't make you overconfident |
| 07:01.19 | Zeal | i'm not having much luck with these dbc files.. |
| 07:01.19 | sancus | It helps if you know what processes are SUPPOSED to be running on your machine, and can spot an unknown one in the task list in a couple seconds |
| 07:01.23 | Zeal | stupid lookups |
| 07:01.43 | Zeal | aye sancus |
| 07:02.14 | Kirkburn|afk | Here's one of the things he said: |
| 07:02.24 | Zeal | what would be nice if developers named their apps something recognizable, and task manager actually reported it's details, not just shortned name.. |
| 07:02.26 | Kirkburn|afk | "I just disabled [UAC] & turned off security center. Too much "security" crap. If anyone knows how to properly operate a PC they don't need either one as they know what to download/install & what not to. And also what sites are malicious. All that is needed is a good, up to date AV program (Avast! is free & works very well)." |
| 07:02.46 | Kirkburn|afk | Zeal, I wish :/ |
| 07:03.00 | Zeal | he's a pirate, avast! :p |
| 07:03.20 | Zeal | tbh though, i agree with him |
| 07:03.40 | Zeal | the secruity shit relies on user input to confirm everything (with vista, twice tbh) |
| 07:03.53 | Zeal | which is fine if you don't know what you're doing |
| 07:03.54 | Kirkburn|afk | Rarely twice |
| 07:04.12 | Kirkburn|afk | UAC is a whole lot more than just security prompts |
| 07:04.13 | Zeal | but it just slows down your ability to do anything and get frustrating |
| 07:04.29 | Zeal | it's the secruity prompts i want gone |
| 07:04.38 | Zeal | SP2 ones piss me off enough as it is |
| 07:04.50 | Kirkburn|afk | No, just ... just no. |
| 07:05.08 | Kirkburn|afk | My brain will explode if I continue this conversation. |
| 07:05.22 | Zeal | if i click to run something, of course i trust it enough that i want it to run with the privlages it wants |
| 07:05.28 | Kirkburn|afk | One's abilities have absolutely nothing to do with keeping your PC secure. Any program can be exploited. |
| 07:05.39 | Zeal | i should be able to opt-in to security, to prevent it if i'm not sure. not opt-out |
| 07:06.02 | Kirkburn|afk | Nearly all programs will /never/ give you a UAC prompt |
| 07:06.11 | Zeal | no Kirkburn|afk, one's knowledge has everything to do with knowing what you are doing and not having to be asked if you wanted to do it. |
| 07:06.21 | Zeal | in beta, plenty did Kirkburn|afk |
| 07:06.37 | Zeal | in beta, i disabled UAC, also tried with it off |
| 07:06.38 | Kirkburn|afk | Yes, badly coded and not updated stuff. |
| 07:06.56 | Zeal | it should have to rely on the programs to fit what vista wants |
| 07:07.00 | Zeal | *shouldn't |
| 07:07.04 | Kirkburn|afk | ANY, absolutely ANY program can be exploited. |
| 07:07.14 | Zeal | it should be opt-in and opt-out configurable. |
| 07:07.22 | Kirkburn|afk | You cannot implicitly trust anything downloaded from the net |
| 07:07.32 | Zeal | not simply opt-out of off |
| 07:07.42 | Kirkburn|afk | No, because people will disable it and completely destroy it's ability to secure their PCs |
| 07:07.51 | Zeal | no Kirkburn|afk |
| 07:07.57 | sancus | Silly vista |
| 07:08.07 | Kirkburn|afk | This may be of interest: http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=536728&hl= |
| 07:08.12 | Zeal | they will lower their guard because they beleive they can make an informed choice without having to be asked. |
| 07:08.13 | sancus | I'm not touching that shit until the drivers are up to XP-level performance :P |
| 07:08.24 | Kirkburn|afk | I don't think either of you entirely understand what UAC is |
| 07:08.26 | Zeal | its like saying a parent should go through life always holding the hand their child |
| 07:08.42 | Zeal | eventually, a child needs to learn and make their own choices alone. |
| 07:08.48 | Kirkburn|afk | sancus, I can understand the driver thing :) |
| 07:09.01 | Zeal | i don't appreciate having vista hold my hand and watching over my shoulder with everything |
| 07:09.02 | Kirkburn|afk | No, no absolutely not. That's not the aim of UAC. |
| 07:09.04 | sancus | I don't believe that _I_ need any more security than what XP provides, though, honestly |
| 07:09.14 | Zeal | it may not be the aim Kirkburn|afk, but that is how it functions |
| 07:09.19 | sancus | but w/e, I dont think it really matters all that much |
| 07:09.21 | sancus | performance++; |
| 07:09.27 | Kirkburn|afk | UAC isn't to watch over your decisions, it watches over the PROGRAMS. |
| 07:09.28 | sancus | eventually vista will be superior to XP in that regard |
| 07:09.36 | Zeal | which i told it to run |
| 07:10.16 | Zeal | and i should have the ability to say "oi! vista, no! this program is trusted, and i want you to let it do w/e it wants" |
| 07:10.26 | Zeal | not be asked everytime |
| 07:10.39 | Zeal | and evne that is stupid |
| 07:10.49 | Kirkburn|afk | No, as I said before ANY program can be exploited, |
| 07:10.54 | Kirkburn|afk | A safe list is an awful idea |
| 07:11.02 | Zeal | it should be "hey, vista! i'm not sure if i should trsut this, so let me know if it does soemthing bad ok?" |
| 07:11.30 | Kirkburn|afk | I can see what you're saying there |
| 07:11.43 | Kirkburn|afk | Difficult to code and make comprehensible for the user |
| 07:11.51 | Kirkburn|afk | They're not going to understand individual processes |
| 07:12.10 | Kirkburn|afk | (most people who use Vista are not power users, remember) |
| 07:12.35 | Zeal | i think they there need two options is what i'm saying. opt-in and opt-out. let it have opt-out as default, that's what it is atm, but let more experienced users use opt-in and let thme run their own risks. |
| 07:12.52 | Zeal | i know.. why i'm not suggesting removing the existing system |
| 07:12.59 | Kirkburn|afk | But the problem there is that inexperienced users will follow suit, thinking it's a good idea |
| 07:13.08 | Kirkburn|afk | And then they'll be put at risk |
| 07:13.14 | Zeal | their own fault |
| 07:13.28 | Kirkburn|afk | And that's why it's totally out of the question |
| 07:13.44 | Zeal | we're human, we're never going to make the best decisions, but that doesn't mean we should have decisions forced upon us. |
| 07:13.51 | Kirkburn|afk | You can't implement something to make Vista more secure and say "well, actually, it's down to your intelligence really" |
| 07:13.55 | Zeal | so its not out of the question at all |
| 07:14.10 | Zeal | it's not microsoft's fault if i fuck up and download a virus |
| 07:14.30 | Kirkburn|afk | I said previously, this isn't about making decisions for the user. It watches the programs, not the user. |
| 07:14.44 | Zeal | if someone keeps fucking up their pc with virus, they should have the common sense to switch back. |
| 07:15.25 | Kirkburn|afk | It isn't a security feature if it doesn't protect a PC |
| 07:15.27 | Zeal | no, it makes descisions for the user Kirkburn|afk. it forces you to choose open doors for applications. |
| 07:15.41 | Zeal | *to open doors |
| 07:15.51 | Zeal | open windows might be a better idea.. lol |
| 07:16.11 | Kirkburn|afk | It forces the programs to have doors opened for them, is better |
| 07:16.33 | Zeal | they're essentially saying "here, everyone now has to use norton otherwise we're just let applications do what they want" |
| 07:16.37 | Kirkburn|afk | The idea is that applications should not require admin mode, and that they must ask for it |
| 07:16.52 | Kirkburn|afk | What? |
| 07:17.05 | Kirkburn|afk | That makes no sense |
| 07:17.17 | Zeal | and my idea is that there should be an alternative where applications run on the user mode, like xp, but can be marked to run under lock down. |
| 07:17.31 | Zeal | and it made perfect sense |
| 07:17.45 | Kirkburn|afk | You can mark folders etc for elevated access |
| 07:17.56 | Zeal | that's folder access |
| 07:18.01 | Kirkburn|afk | That's what I did for WoW |
| 07:18.04 | Zeal | not rights for the application |
| 07:18.09 | Kirkburn|afk | Essentially WoW now runs without UAC |
| 07:18.46 | Kirkburn|afk | Actually okay, your descrip is probably better |
| 07:19.11 | Kirkburn|afk | In any case, few programs should activate UAC, ever |
| 07:19.35 | Kirkburn|afk | I only have one prog that does that, and that's the AceUpdater |
| 07:20.04 | Zeal | all i want is the ability to choose between running vista as it is now, or running it like xp (SP1) with the ability to opt-in to vista's UAC on a per application basis. |
| 07:20.32 | Zeal | lol, my ati drivers did it.. hm.. er daemon tools did it. |
| 07:20.39 | Kirkburn|afk | What you actually mean is you want a 'safe list' |
| 07:20.55 | Zeal | no, i want everything safe unless i say so |
| 07:21.10 | Zeal | atm, everything is unsafe and i have to say if i want to let soemthing happen. |
| 07:21.17 | Kirkburn|afk | That's mind-bogglingly mad |
| 07:21.41 | Kirkburn|afk | Teh stuff you don't want to run /you won't know about/ |
| 07:22.01 | Kirkburn|afk | The whole point of malcious programs is that they don't announce their presence! |
| 07:22.57 | Kirkburn|afk | (on a side note, MS wants to sort the double prompt thing, and are working on sorting it) |
| 07:23.02 | Zeal | its like how my winamp script for mirc works.. i have a download list which can be an allow list, or a block list, i don't force people to consdier everyone unallowed or unblocked.. i leave it up to the user which mode they want to run. |
| 07:24.04 | Zeal | think of it this way.. irc. you rather have an ignore list, or an allow list for users? |
| 07:24.08 | Zeal | *would |
| 07:24.32 | Zeal | cos irc essentially forces you into everything being safe unless you say. |
| 07:24.55 | Kirkburn|afk | On that allow list, you would allow all of those people to use you PC without any restrictions? |
| 07:25.05 | *** join/#wowwiki _dok3Dal (n=dok@AStrasbourg-251-1-75-252.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 07:25.40 | Kirkburn|afk | Even if someone came along, found an exploit and inserted their own malicious code into their ... "subsystems"? |
| 07:26.22 | Zeal | no, because my pc is my pc. i could open up a port and say "hey everyone, come in, just don;t mess things up" but i don't trust people enough to do that. the important thing is i have the choice. |
| 07:26.43 | Kirkburn|afk | Well you /can/ turn of UAC if you want |
| 07:27.04 | Kirkburn|afk | It's just an incredibly stupid idea |
| 07:27.16 | Zeal | you can disable it (which i beleive they prevented since), turning it off doesn't fully turn it off as was realized in beta |
| 07:27.32 | Zeal | and irregardless, you thne have no way to opt-in to it |
| 07:27.38 | Kirkburn|afk | http://brandonlive.com/2007/02/06/more-secure-way-to-disable-uac-without-losing-protected-mode-ie/ |
| 07:28.51 | Kirkburn|afk | "Fully" turning off UAC is the most mind-blowingly idiotic thing you could possibly do on Vista |
| 07:29.10 | Kirkburn|afk | That option 2 on their is "better", but not by a large amount |
| 07:29.49 | Zeal | option one wasn't there in beta. option 1 was option 2 last time i tried, but didn't work correctly because of the double prompt |
| 07:30.29 | Zeal | and what i want is option 2, with the ability to flag a app to ask. |
| 07:30.33 | Zeal | *an |
| 07:30.45 | Kirkburn|afk | It's the apps you don't know about that you want to ask, tbh |
| 07:30.55 | sancus | hah |
| 07:31.04 | sancus | the biggest battle in EVE history went down tonight and my side won |
| 07:31.10 | Kirkburn|afk | Nice work :) |
| 07:31.14 | Zeal | stupid game ;) |
| 07:31.28 | sancus | over 2000 combatants |
| 07:31.45 | Zeal | anyways.. Kirkburn|afk, the matter of fact is i don't have a choice in making such distinctions as it stands |
| 07:31.47 | Kirkburn|afk | (this is what happens when you turn off UAC - http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=537574&st=0 ;) |
| 07:31.49 | Zeal | its all in or all out.. |
| 07:31.57 | Kirkburn|afk | And shake it all about |
| 07:32.14 | Kirkburn|afk | sancus, whose side are you on? |
| 07:32.50 | sancus | Goonswarm |
| 07:32.53 | sancus | red alliance |
| 07:32.53 | sancus | etc |
| 07:32.58 | sancus | "Coalition Rapetrain" |
| 07:33.18 | Kirkburn|afk | :O |
| 07:33.29 | sancus | destroyed a starbase that was building a titan |
| 07:33.37 | sancus | and the original blueprint for it |
| 07:33.41 | sancus | worth well over $15,000 |
| 07:33.47 | Kirkburn|afk | Zeal, that option doesn't exist due to the inherent security risk it poses |
| 07:33.52 | Kirkburn|afk | wow |
| 07:34.14 | sancus | they were playing the russian national anthem on the goon radio station on loop for a while :p |
| 07:34.23 | sancus | awesome anthem imo |
| 07:34.25 | Zeal | Kirkburn|afk, i shouldn't have secruity thurst upon me at the cos of performance and usability. |
| 07:35.24 | Kirkburn|afk | Performance? Usability? Clicking a prompt to say "yes, you can run in elevated mode" is hardly a difficult |
| 07:35.24 | sancus | the enemy was fucking retarded |
| 07:35.27 | Kirkburn|afk | lol |
| 07:35.27 | sancus | there was no reason to risk the BPO to build the titan |
| 07:35.37 | sancus | gg |
| 07:35.37 | Kirkburn|afk | BPO? |
| 07:35.41 | sancus | blueprint original |
| 07:35.44 | Kirkburn|afk | ah |
| 07:35.46 | Zeal | Kirkburn|afk.. please tell me you're not someone who posted in that topic |
| 07:35.48 | sancus | building anything in eve takes a bpo |
| 07:35.52 | Zeal | because its full offucktards |
| 07:35.56 | sancus | which are very expensive |
| 07:35.58 | Kirkburn|afk | Zeal, I post with this name everywhere |
| 07:35.58 | Zeal | *of fucktards |
| 07:36.13 | Zeal | well didn't see your name |
| 07:36.20 | Kirkburn|afk | And Brandon Live /knows/ what he's talking about |
| 07:36.29 | Kirkburn|afk | As he works for mS |
| 07:36.31 | Kirkburn|afk | *MS |
| 07:36.34 | Zeal | well i'm more about how no single person helped that guy |
| 07:36.41 | Zeal | *more on about |
| 07:36.48 | Kirkburn|afk | Which thread? |
| 07:36.51 | Kirkburn|afk | The IE7 one? |
| 07:37.04 | Zeal | they all just accused him of downloading spyware with no proof and no resolution to his problem. |
| 07:37.07 | Zeal | yes |
| 07:37.14 | Kirkburn|afk | He himself said "I didn't download anything" |
| 07:37.20 | Zeal | i know |
| 07:37.34 | Kirkburn|afk | If UAC was active that could /not/ have occured |
| 07:37.35 | Zeal | also the bashing of windows defender i found funny.. |
| 07:37.43 | Zeal | that thing has always worked well for me |
| 07:38.01 | Kirkburn|afk | I know, it's the natural bashing of MS stuff :/ |
| 07:38.09 | Zeal | and according to him, it didn;t occur period Kirkburn|afk |
| 07:38.13 | Kirkburn|afk | sancus, what was your job in it all? |
| 07:38.50 | sancus | oh I wasn't even there :) |
| 07:38.51 | Kirkburn|afk | Yes, well that's obviously wrong, Zeal :P |
| 07:38.55 | Kirkburn|afk | sancus, nooo |
| 07:38.56 | sancus | I can't contribute much yet! |
| 07:38.59 | Zeal | from the sounds of it though, it's something he's had since xp and he brought with him to vista. |
| 07:39.06 | Zeal | not obviously Kirkburn|afk |
| 07:39.10 | Zeal | there is no proof |
| 07:39.11 | sancus | If everyone who COULD go there had gone |
| 07:39.11 | *** join/#wowwiki Laraul (i=spoof@ip72-200-90-128.tc.ph.cox.net) |
| 07:39.15 | sancus | the node would have crashed even more than it did |
| 07:39.21 | sancus | all the cruiser/frigate pilots were asked to log off anyway at a certain point |
| 07:39.57 | Kirkburn|afk | Zeal, that's true, could have come from XP. If that's the case, then yes UAC wouldn't have helped. However, I doubt it. |
| 07:40.09 | Kirkburn|afk | sancus, lol |
| 07:40.35 | Zeal | you can doubt it all you want. point is, no one cared to point that out and instead it turns into assumptions and a debate of UAC and IE7 >_> |
| 07:40.52 | Zeal | feeel rather sorry for the guy |
| 07:41.26 | sancus | CCP shifted the node onto its own mega-server |
| 07:41.31 | sancus | and then the lag was OK |
| 07:41.40 | Zeal | "I installed nforce 4 drivers from nvidia (http://www.neowin.net/index.php?act=view&id=37908#comment527639) and Windows Vista comes up with a popup window saying it deactivated itself and I need to reactivate in three days due to a hardware change. Now I have to call up Microsoft, go through the wonderful input ID screen, go on hold, and talk to a representative who will probably not understand what is going on." |
| 07:41.42 | Zeal | lol ^ |
| 07:42.05 | Zeal | remember when xp used to do stuff like that.. |
| 07:42.05 | Kirkburn|afk | Cynicism :/ |
| 07:42.34 | Kirkburn|afk | It shouldn't have needed reactivation, unless he changes other stuff as well |
| 07:42.37 | Kirkburn|afk | *changed |
| 07:42.41 | Zeal | sancus, do/did you like freelancer btw? |
| 07:42.59 | Kirkburn|afk | I can't find my copy of Freelancer. Best game I played for aaagges! |
| 07:43.17 | Zeal | iirc, microsoft said they planned it so any mobo changes would require a new windows copy. if they went ahead with that, i dunno. |
| 07:43.22 | Zeal | indeed Kirkburn|afk |
| 07:43.25 | Zeal | i still have it |
| 07:43.30 | Kirkburn|afk | Changing each part of the PC is one token. You're allowed up to three before reactivation afaik |
| 07:43.35 | Zeal | love the thing.. its like the wow of space sims ;) |
| 07:43.38 | Kirkburn|afk | (the network card is 3 tokens, however) |
| 07:43.45 | Zeal | wtf? lol |
| 07:43.56 | Zeal | i hate that concept |
| 07:44.08 | Kirkburn|afk | Reactivation is much simpler than the guy is trying to say though |
| 07:44.13 | Kirkburn|afk | Whine whine whine :P |
| 07:44.23 | Zeal | i think you should be allowed to use a copy of windows on as many pc's as you want, just only one at a time. |
| 07:44.29 | *** join/#wowwiki Dragofix (i=Dragofix@dsl-hkigw8-fe10f800-107.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 07:44.33 | Kirkburn|afk | Yes, that's allowed |
| 07:44.38 | Zeal | it's not though |
| 07:44.41 | Kirkburn|afk | Not for an OEM copy, but normal copies, yes |
| 07:44.48 | Zeal | nope |
| 07:44.53 | Kirkburn|afk | Yes it is, they changed the license agreement |
| 07:44.55 | Zeal | doesn't with xp |
| 07:44.57 | sancus | yeah I liked freelancer |
| 07:45.05 | Zeal | well it didn;t before |
| 07:45.13 | Zeal | i had to get a second copy in the end |
| 07:45.33 | Zeal | good sancus ;) |
| 07:46.05 | Zeal | and this was before they announced that idea i said |
| 07:46.09 | Zeal | which was salted for vista |
| 07:46.12 | Zeal | *slated |
| 07:46.53 | Zeal | only issue, it is requires net access. |
| 07:46.57 | Zeal | *is it |
| 07:47.23 | Zeal | otherwise you could active and never go back online. and do that with as many pc's as you want. |
| 07:48.31 | Zeal | how they get around that atm.. i dunno |
| 07:49.23 | Kirkburn|afk | Zeal, aha - "Reversing a licensing change announced two weeks ago, Microsoft said on Thursday that it will not limit the number of times retail customers can transfer their Windows Vista licence to a different computer." |
| 07:50.15 | sancus | that licensing thing was bullshit |
| 07:50.17 | Kirkburn|afk | There was a lot of complaints about the 'change', obviously (which were clarifying the agreement, not changing it originally) |
| 07:50.21 | sancus | I was planning to never buy Vista if they hadn't reverted it |
| 07:50.31 | Kirkburn|afk | It was crazy, yeah |
| 07:50.35 | sancus | but honestly |
| 07:50.39 | sancus | its minimal effect on their profits |
| 07:50.44 | sancus | because 90% of installed vista versions come with your PC |
| 07:50.48 | sancus | and those are NOT transferrable |
| 07:50.52 | Kirkburn|afk | Also, you can transfer an OEM copy, you just have to think of a good reason ;) |
| 07:51.00 | sancus | XP versions bought with a PC were never transferrable either |
| 07:51.02 | Kirkburn|afk | Like, "it blew up" |
| 07:51.08 | sancus | sure |
| 07:51.13 | sancus | but legally speaking, they're not |
| 07:51.16 | Kirkburn|afk | Indeed |
| 07:51.24 | sancus | ofc |
| 07:51.28 | Kirkburn|afk | But normal copies, transfer away :D |
| 07:51.30 | sancus | I haven't run a legit copy of windows since 3.1 :P |
| 07:51.34 | Zeal | huh? |
| 07:51.42 | *** join/#wowwiki Adys (n=Miranda@APoitiers-256-1-48-212.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 07:51.42 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Adys] by ChanServ |
| 07:51.54 | sancus | OEM copies of vista/xp are not transferrable, they are tied to the PC you bought them with |
| 07:52.01 | Adys | morning |
| 07:52.05 | Kirkburn|afk | Heya |
| 07:52.06 | Adys | Oi kirkburn |
| 07:52.10 | Adys | I thought of something btw |
| 07:52.25 | Kirkburn|afk | The reduction in cost of an OEM copy is due to 1). the restrictions and 2). no support |
| 07:52.26 | Zeal | the original agreement, they were transferable up to 3 times. they changed that to something else (none at all?), then reverted, and made them unlimited transfers? O_o |
| 07:52.27 | Adys | now the arenas are in game they said they'd implement the netherdrake pve questline too |
| 07:52.38 | Adys | so that might explain the length of the patch |
| 07:52.54 | Kirkburn|afk | Could be, could be, Adys |
| 07:53.08 | Kirkburn|afk | "On 16 October, Microsoft issued the new user licence for Vista, including terms that would have limited the ability of those who buy a boxed copy of the operating system to transfer that licence. Under the proposed terms, users could have made such a switch only once." |
| 07:53.16 | Zeal | i could jsut check to see what changed.. heh |
| 07:53.17 | Kirkburn|afk | That was what was originally proposed |
| 07:53.57 | Adys | http://www.wowwiki.com/Turalyon U.G.L.Y |
| 07:54.01 | Zeal | i'm talking XP Kirkburn|afk |
| 07:54.05 | Kirkburn|afk | The rules on transfer were very unclear before the EULA rewrite |
| 07:54.07 | Zeal | crossed wires then i guess |
| 07:54.09 | sancus | OEM and retail copies are completely diff |
| 07:54.43 | Zeal | Adys, i doubt it, but i shall look to see what got added |
| 07:54.48 | Kirkburn|afk | Only the for the license, but yes |
| 07:54.56 | Zeal | actually screw that |
| 07:54.58 | Zeal | too hard :P |
| 07:55.20 | Kirkburn|afk | Essentially, Vista has more relaxed rules on tranfer than XP |
| 07:55.25 | Kirkburn|afk | *transfer |
| 07:56.09 | Kirkburn|afk | And as long as you can give the person on the end of the phone an excellent reason for why you suddenly needed to change 3 component in your PC with an OEM copy, you'll also be fine |
| 07:56.45 | Zeal | basically, if it were me. i'd say limitless on retail when actives over the net, none on oem (unless manafactuer or support package requests so), none on retail actived without the net. |
| 07:57.00 | Kirkburn|afk | Like "omg, this huge lightning strike like hit my house and blew up the motherboard, graphics card and RAM. No really!" |
| 07:57.08 | Zeal | *retail without net connectivity |
| 07:57.20 | Kirkburn|afk | That's pretty much exactly it |
| 07:57.30 | Kirkburn|afk | Wait, why the last bit? |
| 07:57.44 | Zeal | to prevent the what you just said from happening :P |
| 07:57.49 | Kirkburn|afk | Lol |
| 07:58.07 | Zeal | it would penalize legitimate claims |
| 07:58.13 | Kirkburn|afk | It forces you to do phone activation |
| 07:58.14 | Zeal | ie, if tht really did happen |
| 07:58.33 | Zeal | yeah, but there needs to be a way to prove the last version is diactivated |
| 07:59.01 | Kirkburn|afk | Ah, I see what you're saying |
| 07:59.21 | Zeal | a possible solution is a activation period, so you have to reactive every few months or something |
| 07:59.24 | Zeal | *an |
| 07:59.57 | Kirkburn|afk | Would have caused too much whinging, whether it was a good idea or not :P |
| 08:00.09 | Kirkburn|afk | "omg, MS are keeping tracks on me! Aaah!" |
| 08:00.16 | Zeal | i'd be fine with it, cos i'd understand why it's done :P |
| 08:00.51 | Kirkburn|afk | Yeah, but all those stealy buggers wouldn't ... /me glances at no-one. Hello no-one. |
| 08:01.14 | Zeal | how about this then? windows becoesm a monthly subscription fee, but is free to download, and microsoft provide full support and access to free microsoft applications based on your chosen package? ;) |
| 08:01.38 | Kirkburn|afk | It's a distinct possibility for the future |
| 08:01.42 | Zeal | aye |
| 08:02.02 | Zeal | but it's just funny, as it sounds like wow (expect wow is a bitch because you have to pay for it one off too..) |
| 08:02.06 | Kirkburn|afk | Not for the next version (that'll be a relatively minor release), but by 2012 for the next maybe |
| 08:02.18 | Zeal | er.. vienna |
| 08:02.26 | Kirkburn|afk | Vienna is a smaller release |
| 08:02.33 | Kirkburn|afk | Say like 95-98 |
| 08:02.37 | Zeal | it wasn't supposed to be.. |
| 08:02.44 | Zeal | but fiji vanished.. |
| 08:02.50 | Kirkburn|afk | Nah, but given how long Vista took, they need to speed up |
| 08:02.51 | Zeal | fiji was meant to be it. |
| 08:03.07 | Kirkburn|afk | Fiji is ... something. Who knows? |
| 08:03.07 | Zeal | vienna was supposed to be what vista failed to be. |
| 08:03.32 | Zeal | i dunno anymore, wikipedia removed all trace of fiji after vista got closer to release.. |
| 08:03.43 | Kirkburn|afk | http://www.winsupersite.com/faq/windows_7.asp |
| 08:04.01 | Kirkburn|afk | "Windows Vista was a major release, and Vienna will be a relatively minor, or interim, update. Microsoft is currently on a development path where every other Windows version is a major release. |
| 08:04.01 | Kirkburn|afk | " |
| 08:04.11 | Kirkburn|afk | Goddamn I hate hidden line breaks |
| 08:05.35 | Zeal | wikipedia still states otherwise |
| 08:06.00 | Kirkburn|afk | I trust Paul Thurrott over wikipedua |
| 08:06.04 | Zeal | being a major release and containing everything and more vista missed out. |
| 08:06.28 | Kirkburn|afk | Ah, well, that's kinda true |
| 08:06.29 | Adys | We need to split the instance categories |
| 08:06.40 | Kirkburn|afk | But Vista will be getting much of that stuff too |
| 08:06.51 | Adys | hellfire citadel into blood furnace, shattered halls, magtheridon's lair and hellfire ramparts |
| 08:06.52 | Adys | etc |
| 08:07.04 | Kirkburn|afk | So it'll be major when compared to Vista's release, but not compared to Vista in the 'final' state |
| 08:07.19 | Kirkburn|afk | Adys, how so? |
| 08:07.35 | Adys | The idea was rejected because it was said they were not in the same instance |
| 08:07.46 | Adys | -not |
| 08:08.00 | Adys | and they were only different wings of a same instance |
| 08:08.03 | Adys | but its not the case |
| 08:08.06 | Kirkburn|afk | Ah right, yes |
| 08:08.16 | Kirkburn|afk | They are completely separate instances |
| 08:08.19 | Adys | Aye |
| 08:08.22 | Zeal | originally we were supposed to get vienna, but then they came up with vista as it was too ahead of it's time to be possible. fiji then became the minor release to follow vista. then vista flopped, and is really another minor release, with fiji vanishing. and now, according to that, vienna is going to be the minor minor minor release.. it was never meant to be.. |
| 08:08.24 | Adys | same for coilfang |
| 08:08.30 | Adys | and auchindound |
| 08:08.38 | Adys | whatever its spelled |
| 08:08.39 | Kirkburn|afk | Zeal, it's probably best not to think about it ;) |
| 08:08.48 | Kirkburn|afk | No 'd' :P |
| 08:08.51 | Adys | aye |
| 08:08.53 | Kirkburn|afk | (at the end) |
| 08:08.56 | Kirkburn|afk | (noob) |
| 08:09.03 | Adys | I know I just cba to spell it again |
| 08:09.13 | Adys | twas a typo =P |
| 08:09.30 | Adys | anyways, think we should do this split now while we are still changing the {{bc}} tags? |
| 08:09.42 | Adys | or wait ? |
| 08:10.16 | Kirkburn|afk | Don't see a reason to wait |
| 08:10.25 | Adys | ok ill just notice varg |
| 08:10.43 | Zeal | winged dungeon they like to call it. they are dungeon zones, with the actual dungeons being inside them, but the zone itself not instanced.. |
| 08:11.26 | Adys | Well basically you can reset blood furnace while your group is in ramparts |
| 08:11.56 | *** join/#wowwiki gdb (n=cbell@circe.inetdb.com) |
| 08:12.51 | Zeal | tbh Kirkburn|afk, from what i'm reading, that guy has assumed much of what he's said because he' as confused as the rest of us. |
| 08:13.16 | Laraul | Wow! |
| 08:13.29 | Laraul | Unreal runs real fast with the software renderer |
| 08:13.38 | Kirkburn|afk | Thurrott is almost an employee of MS, Zeal |
| 08:14.36 | Laraul | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=77038813&sid=1 <--- *sigh^ |
| 08:14.36 | Zeal | i don't beleive vienna is the next version, atleast not what vienna was supposed to be. that's probabbly still sitting in the "what we plan to do later" box at microsoft. they may be using the codename again (haven't seen the details as to how the rename occured that he's describing), but it's not what vienna plans were. |
| 08:14.41 | Zeal | Kirkburn|afk, almost |
| 08:14.51 | Zeal | he sounds as clueless as anyone else |
| 08:15.00 | Zeal | and he points that out himself |
| 08:15.13 | Kirkburn|afk | Yes, but he know more of the situation than others - i.e. what he says is much more likely |
| 08:15.33 | Kirkburn|afk | As in, there's no better source than him atm |
| 08:16.04 | Kirkburn|afk | But yes, it's all very "ethereal" :P |
| 08:16.12 | Zeal | "Windows Vista Service Pack 1 (SP1, codenamed "Fiji")" well that is what happened to fiji |
| 08:16.21 | Zeal | it got shrunk into service pack |
| 08:16.26 | Kirkburn|afk | Laraul, ouch |
| 08:16.44 | Adys | is it me or *[[:Category:Instance:Eye]] sounds retardedly stupid? |
| 08:16.49 | Zeal | fiji was supposed to be brining WinfFS |
| 08:16.51 | Adys | (no comment zeal please)>< |
| 08:16.57 | Laraul | I was tinkering with the opengl developer tools little bit earlier |
| 08:17.05 | Zeal | not even a yes? |
| 08:17.18 | Adys | :P |
| 08:18.02 | Laraul | Quartz 2D Extreme doesn't speed the game up any :P |
| 08:18.14 | Adys | Laraul: This post is LOL |
| 08:18.33 | Laraul | What the "Macs are horrible" one? |
| 08:18.40 | Adys | yes |
| 08:19.36 | Laraul | <PROTECTED> |
| 08:19.36 | Laraul | Windows tech support forums = 994 pages...... |
| 08:19.38 | Zeal | Kirkburn|afk, if i'm to beleive what he's saying. Vista is being considered a major release by microsoft still, despite the screw up and it's real status as a minor-minor release. fair enough. Fiji was suppsoed to be a minor release to microsoft's major release. but it's not becoem a service pack. Vienna, suppsoed to be a major release, has not become a minor release (in reality, a minor-minor-minor release) |
| 08:19.40 | Laraul | Wow |
| 08:19.44 | Zeal | that's it. |
| 08:20.15 | Kirkburn|afk | haha |
| 08:20.17 | Zeal | i doubt, anything vienna was, is windows 7. and everything vienna was suppsoed to be, is now windows 8. |
| 08:20.34 | Zeal | probably been split up in all honest |
| 08:20.53 | Zeal | as it sounds like windows 7 is supposed to bring WinFS, unless it's coming with Fiji. |
| 08:21.03 | Kirkburn|afk | Let's hope the successor to Vista has a product development like Office 2007's |
| 08:21.06 | Laraul | WinFS? Windows 7? |
| 08:21.24 | Kirkburn|afk | WinFS is dead, but elements of it will appear |
| 08:21.36 | Zeal | the technology isn't |
| 08:21.39 | Zeal | the name is |
| 08:21.43 | Zeal | but theres no new name |
| 08:21.47 | Zeal | so.. still use it, lol |
| 08:21.50 | Kirkburn|afk | :P |
| 08:21.52 | Laraul | What is WinFS? |
| 08:21.57 | Zeal | new file system |
| 08:22.06 | Kirkburn|afk | Ooh, uh |
| 08:22.22 | Kirkburn|afk | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WinFS |
| 08:22.28 | Laraul | Ugh... they can't even use the one they have currently |
| 08:22.43 | Zeal | partly why i'm reluctant to swtich to vista.. as WinFS is one of the features i really cared about. |
| 08:22.44 | Kirkburn|afk | It's not something like NTFS |
| 08:23.05 | Kirkburn|afk | It's something that goes on top of it |
| 08:23.28 | Zeal | roughly, yeah |
| 08:24.29 | Laraul | Er... take a look at how apple does things |
| 08:24.34 | Laraul | Metadata everywhere |
| 08:24.59 | Laraul | Rather than use binaries it uses bundles |
| 08:25.03 | Adys | Any comments ? http://www.wowwiki.com/User_talk:Varghedin#Instance_category_splits |
| 08:25.34 | Kirkburn|afk | I'm proper afk now, gotta write this project |
| 08:25.49 | Adys | Ok Kirkburn|Properafk |
| 08:26.07 | Laraul | <PROTECTED> |
| 08:26.13 | Zeal | with ya Adys |
| 08:26.27 | Zeal | Laraul, that's all over my head tbh |
| 08:26.28 | Adys | Thats the aura of likeness zeal? |
| 08:26.31 | Adys | :P |
| 08:26.34 | Zeal | lol |
| 08:26.45 | Adys | k |
| 08:26.52 | Adys | i dont create anything until vargs answer |
| 08:26.56 | Adys | but ill start categorizing |
| 08:27.39 | Laraul | DO you understand what bundles (aka packages) are? |
| 08:29.27 | Zeal | not in terms of what you're talking about i'm guessing no. |
| 08:29.45 | Zeal | a bundle of wood, a software package, an install package, and package for delivery.. lol |
| 08:30.03 | Laraul | Okay... a bundle is a app,document,etc that appears as a single file |
| 08:30.03 | Zeal | *a |
| 08:30.24 | Zeal | so.. a file? |
| 08:30.33 | Zeal | lol |
| 08:30.34 | Laraul | In reality it's a folder consisting a heirachy of files and folders that make up the complete file |
| 08:30.53 | Zeal | .. a zip file? lol |
| 08:31.05 | Laraul | A zip file is a SINGLE binary stream |
| 08:31.35 | Laraul | It's not a zip file. You can easily add and alter things within the file |
| 08:32.02 | Zeal | other apps.. can't directly.. |
| 08:32.09 | Zeal | and windwos couldn't for a while >_> |
| 08:32.11 | Zeal | lol |
| 08:32.42 | Laraul | Everything in windows is a damn binary stream! |
| 08:32.52 | Laraul | A single binary stream |
| 08:34.31 | Zeal | telling me what those are might help.. |
| 08:34.45 | Zeal | hm.. i had a feeling xml schema would play a part in this :p |
| 08:36.03 | Laraul | Here take a look at this |
| 08:36.03 | Laraul | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundle_%28NEXTSTEP%29 |
| 08:39.17 | Zeal | ok.. i fail to see the relevence to a file system |
| 08:41.10 | sancus | if you tried to run an application out of a zip file without caching the contents somewhere else |
| 08:41.20 | sancus | the results would be pretty horrendous :P |
| 08:41.28 | Laraul | You just cache to RAM |
| 08:41.34 | Laraul | in that case |
| 08:41.57 | sancus | sure, not as useful as what you're talking about though |
| 08:42.07 | Laraul | Huh no of course not |
| 08:42.13 | sancus | that's what I was saying |
| 08:42.20 | sancus | zips are not a substitute for bundles in any way |
| 08:42.35 | sancus | was agreeing with you :P |
| 08:42.52 | Laraul | I mean the problem with zip files or any data that's a single binary stream... everytime you make a change the entire file has to be rebuilt |
| 08:43.02 | Zeal | i was simply trying to understand what Laraul was talking about. zip was the closest thing i knew |
| 08:43.11 | sancus | it's like a zip file |
| 08:43.26 | sancus | where the OS can access any part of it simultaneously without touching the rest of it |
| 08:43.32 | Zeal | anyways.. i just realized my proposal for the wiki is based on the same concept as WinFS, fun. |
| 08:43.38 | sancus | it's an organizational thing |
| 08:43.41 | sancus | basically |
| 08:44.19 | Laraul | If you browse a OSX system from within Windows... bundles appear as folders |
| 08:44.22 | sancus | but it's why installation in osx is awesome and simple |
| 08:44.27 | sancus | and is fucking retarded in windows |
| 08:44.42 | Laraul | So "World of Warcraft.app" appears as a folder in Windows |
| 08:52.18 | Zeal | and folders in osx? are they all bundles? |
| 08:52.28 | sancus | no |
| 08:52.32 | sancus | bundles are for applications |
| 08:52.39 | sancus | not for general data files and stuff |
| 08:52.43 | Zeal | oh isee, for applications |
| 08:52.58 | Zeal | well this is wher i was going with why i didn't see the relevence |
| 08:53.27 | sancus | they're basically a way of making an application 'one unit' without losing the advantages of a normal file hierarchy/system |
| 08:53.27 | Laraul | GOD DAMN SE |
| 08:54.30 | Laraul | All my plants are DEAD |
| 08:54.33 | Zeal | mhm, i get that sancus |
| 08:54.53 | Zeal | but i don't get the mechanics behind it and how they relate to WinFS ;) |
| 08:55.14 | Adys | http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:INV_Misc_Gem_AzureDraenite_03.jpg AAAAAAEEERRRGGGHHH DIIIIIIEEEE |
| 08:55.25 | Laraul | i bet my choco is dead too |
| 08:55.42 | sancus | I believe he was saying NTFS already has the capabilities to implement something like that, but they haven't bothered for w/e reason |
| 08:55.54 | sancus | so WinFS is nice but NTFS has capabilities MS is ignoring |
| 08:56.04 | Laraul | cuz they're idiots and honestly don't give a shit |
| 09:00.55 | Zeal | er.. ok so irrelevent, but soemthing to add to the fire. fine |
| 09:01.10 | Zeal | fair enough, makes sense |
| 09:01.18 | Zeal | anyways.. me wants WinFS |
| 09:01.36 | Zeal | Adys, what's with the link? :s |
| 09:01.45 | Adys | ITS A JPGGGGGG |
| 09:01.49 | Adys | IT NEEDS TO DIEEEEE |
| 09:01.52 | Adys | AAARRRRGHHH |
| 09:01.58 | Zeal | lol |
| 09:02.07 | *** join/#wowwiki dok3Dal (n=dok@AStrasbourg-251-1-75-252.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 09:02.07 | Adys | No im just kidding there but these fucking jpgs freak me out |
| 09:02.09 | Laraul | JPEG needs to die? |
| 09:02.34 | Adys | there is STILL people fucking uploading icons under this STUPID FORMAT THAT IS SPECIFICALLY BANNED ON THE UPLOADING PAGE IN RED BOL CHARACTERS AARGH |
| 09:03.00 | Adys | so yes, that freaks me out |
| 09:03.01 | Laraul | What format are you supposed to use? PMG? |
| 09:03.04 | Adys | png yea |
| 09:03.13 | Laraul | Actually does it matter? |
| 09:03.13 | Adys | {{Icon}} automatically uses pngs aswell |
| 09:03.18 | Adys | yes it does |
| 09:03.42 | Adys | icons that are uploaded on the wiki under a format are not always uploaded under another format |
| 09:03.50 | Zeal | oh ffs, i'm an idiot >_. |
| 09:03.52 | Adys | so for that matter they are ALL uploaded as png (its been done now) |
| 09:03.54 | Laraul | Why not GIF? |
| 09:04.05 | Adys | ask tusva |
| 09:04.10 | Zeal | rofl adys.. you need to delete it again.. |
| 09:04.23 | Adys | die zeal |
| 09:04.31 | Zeal | gif compression of colours |
| 09:04.36 | Zeal | = die |
| 09:04.42 | Adys | indeed :P |
| 09:04.45 | Adys | nah its ok |
| 09:04.50 | Adys | its a disguised png |
| 09:04.55 | Adys | so t'sok |
| 09:05.08 | Zeal | needs to be deleted or moved.. |
| 09:05.10 | Adys | BUT JPGS NEED TO DIE |
| 09:05.18 | Adys | deleted it |
| 09:05.21 | Zeal | kk |
| 09:05.29 | Laraul | PNG is the result of Compuserve patenting the GIF format |
| 09:05.52 | Zeal | glad they did, heh. |
| 09:05.55 | Zeal | png ftw |
| 09:06.06 | Adys | indeed tbh |
| 09:06.09 | Laraul | Actually no not really |
| 09:06.22 | Laraul | I'd prefer using GIF or JPEG |
| 09:06.40 | Adys | jpg fucks up the colors on dark icons |
| 09:06.49 | Adys | and gives cyan borders to transparent ones |
| 09:06.55 | Zeal | i very rarely use a gif, only if i'm using it for something which needs a fixed pallet |
| 09:07.01 | Adys | and gif fucks up the highly colorized icons |
| 09:07.03 | Adys | like the naxx ones |
| 09:07.09 | Laraul | Umm... |
| 09:07.25 | Laraul | You can choose what colors to use |
| 09:07.29 | Zeal | yes |
| 09:07.35 | Zeal | but you are limited more than other formats |
| 09:07.39 | Adys | aye |
| 09:08.03 | Adys | http://wow.allakhazam.com/images/icons/INV_Shield_33.png lol wth? |
| 09:08.10 | Laraul | Er how are you more limited? |
| 09:08.27 | Zeal | jpg is limiting too, but does a better job at handling it for the most part, though the more you compress, the more it distorts the image as a whole. |
| 09:08.35 | Zeal | amount of colours |
| 09:09.22 | Laraul | JPEGs are designed to be made up of lots of colors |
| 09:09.38 | Zeal | and..? that was the point |
| 09:09.44 | Laraul | Much more than the original may consist off |
| 09:09.47 | Laraul | Er of |
| 09:10.14 | *** join/#wowwiki tekcub (n=tekkub@ip70-178-135-244.ks.ks.cox.net) |
| 09:11.18 | Adys | aint the point |
| 09:11.32 | Zeal | was my point :p |
| 09:11.41 | Adys | when tusva came here and the reason why i assisted him was that we wanted to unify the icon format on the wiki and upload them all |
| 09:12.02 | Adys | jpg, gif or png was the question, at this point there were many jpgs uploaded, quite a few pngs and no gif |
| 09:12.14 | Adys | gif was out of question, and jpg was fugly |
| 09:12.22 | Adys | so he said png. so we went for png. |
| 09:12.25 | Adys | simple as that |
| 09:12.27 | Zeal | both out of the question imo. |
| 09:12.31 | Zeal | but yeah |
| 09:15.54 | Adys | thats my opinion too zeal |
| 09:16.10 | Adys | (see you have this aura today) |
| 09:16.50 | Zeal | lol |
| 09:17.50 | Zeal | tbw.. i noticed some of those icons oddly have a darker background in ie6 :S |
| 09:17.58 | Zeal | i'll probably have to reupload some |
| 09:18.11 | Zeal | mostly the ones i did first, the 24x24 ones. |
| 09:18.21 | Zeal | *btw |
| 09:18.33 | Zeal | *wiki icons i uploaded oddly |
| 09:19.08 | Zeal | and i hope you realize i didn't set the bg for any of the wow icons? :p |
| 09:19.35 | Zeal | too many of those for me to care about ie6.. lol |
| 09:19.41 | Zeal | and it's only small corners |
| 09:19.54 | Zeal | anys.. i should look to see if we got a new icon.. |
| 09:21.01 | Zeal | nope |
| 09:21.10 | Adys | Yay |
| 09:21.19 | Adys | "A" is done in Category:Burning Crusade |
| 09:21.29 | Zeal | hm? |
| 09:21.38 | Adys | http://www.wowwiki.com/Category:Burning_Crusade |
| 09:21.41 | Adys | b-z left |
| 09:22.00 | Adys | ill throw out the armored gryphon page too |
| 09:22.07 | Adys | but later, it needs a complete revamp |
| 09:22.45 | Zeal | what are you doing..? |
| 09:22.49 | Zeal | sorting out bc tags? |
| 09:23.07 | Zeal | you know my aura is going to turn to hate if you did what you proposed, right? ;) |
| 09:24.06 | Adys | tis not proposed |
| 09:24.09 | Adys | tis decided |
| 09:24.34 | Adys | No honestly its really time to move on |
| 09:24.37 | Laraul | I downloaded a icon and see if I could convert it too gif... |
| 09:24.43 | Adys | we cant afford to wait for another vote |
| 09:25.08 | Laraul | Well I manage to squeeze it down to half the file size... the image lookd identical |
| 09:25.14 | Zeal | was proposed.. and because i'm so against it, i will call for a ote if needed :P |
| 09:25.20 | Zeal | *vote |
| 09:25.53 | Adys | fair enough call for a vote for a rollback of these changes but wait until Im done so that we can at least move on :P |
| 09:26.05 | Zeal | i see no justifaction or purpose in doing it your way. the reasons you gave are irrelevent in the context of an article. |
| 09:26.14 | Zeal | oh.. not rolling back |
| 09:26.18 | Adys | We decided them yesterday night |
| 09:26.19 | Zeal | you do it, and we get a vote :P |
| 09:26.24 | Zeal | lies |
| 09:26.30 | Zeal | i saw no decision |
| 09:26.34 | Adys | On this very irc chan |
| 09:26.39 | Adys | We didnt wait for you you bet :P |
| 09:26.50 | Adys | Very honestly, no one was against it |
| 09:26.56 | Zeal | nah, i read everything i miss |
| 09:27.08 | Adys | Then, scroll up >< |
| 09:27.09 | Zeal | it was onl you me and kirk, and he was staying out of it :P |
| 09:27.17 | Adys | you were here as "zeal" |
| 09:27.46 | Adys | Was Montagg, Kirkburn, me and some others dont remember the names |
| 09:28.15 | Laraul | Okay... how many colors are you using? |
| 09:28.51 | Laraul | You should be using no more than 128 |
| 09:30.04 | Zeal | read it |
| 09:30.12 | Zeal | i skipped it because montag was boring me :P |
| 09:30.15 | Zeal | lol |
| 09:30.20 | Zeal | nah.. dunno how i missed that |
| 09:30.21 | Adys | lol |
| 09:30.26 | Laraul | What did you use to compress these files? |
| 09:30.38 | Zeal | anyways.. i will say, you all have a flawed concept and reasoning behind not wanting it. simple as that. |
| 09:30.58 | Adys | very well but as i told you before majority > flawed logic |
| 09:31.19 | Adys | dont make me do a comparison with some US presidents :P |
| 09:31.41 | Zeal | 131 i'd imagine actually Laraul, as black, white and transparent are usually enfroced. |
| 09:32.03 | Zeal | well looks like i'm making a vote.. |
| 09:32.17 | Zeal | cos atm, it's another reason for me to leave. |
| 09:32.31 | Adys | do a vote if you really think you have a chance to win sure |
| 09:32.45 | Zeal | i don't |
| 09:32.45 | Adys | but dont expect anything, and its also really silly on things like that |
| 09:32.59 | Zeal | but i don't have to like it |
| 09:33.07 | Adys | its very simple, we dont want items quests and all that crap categorized as bc |
| 09:33.18 | Laraul | These icons maybe use like 30-60 colors |
| 09:33.18 | Adys | when i say we its the majority |
| 09:33.52 | Zeal | dunno Laraul, but the selection process for the pallet results in a flattening of colours. |
| 09:34.04 | Zeal | perhaps it's the tool to blame |
| 09:34.30 | Zeal | perhaps i'm using less colours than you are, because gif's can easily be larger than jpeg's and having it that big defeats the point |
| 09:34.55 | Zeal | fyi, most of the time, i'm using photoshop CS2 |
| 09:34.58 | Adys | why does allakhazam systematically inverses some stats ffs |
| 09:35.03 | Adys | http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=28269 / http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28269 |
| 09:35.39 | Laraul | You use imageready |
| 09:35.46 | Laraul | Not photoshop |
| 09:36.38 | Zeal | no, i use photoshop |
| 09:37.11 | Zeal | they share functionality, but they haven't crossed over since 6 |
| 09:37.29 | Zeal | i can use imageready, and have done so rarely for animations |
| 09:37.40 | Laraul | These aren't animated |
| 09:37.54 | Laraul | Does bridge run on your machine, btw? |
| 09:37.55 | Zeal | yeah, which is why i didn't talk about image ready |
| 09:38.03 | Zeal | er.. never tried |
| 09:38.11 | Laraul | omigod |
| 09:38.43 | Laraul | It's a $600 app you don't even know how to use it? |
| 09:39.03 | Zeal | u seriously think i payed for it? O_o |
| 09:39.12 | Laraul | ??? |
| 09:39.13 | Zeal | and yes it does run |
| 09:40.00 | Laraul | Doesn't CS2 use online activation? |
| 09:40.02 | Zeal | you won't catch me paying for photoshop or any adobe application until i'm making money off it's use or the price comes down/quality improves |
| 09:40.05 | Zeal | yes, it does. |
| 09:40.12 | drin | hackacrackapatch :D |
| 09:40.26 | Zeal | nah, just generate a phone activation code |
| 09:40.39 | drin | im using photoshop 7 portable version : ) |
| 09:40.44 | drin | loving it : ) |
| 09:40.50 | drin | just sitting on my memstickle : ) |
| 09:40.51 | Zeal | Adys! |
| 09:40.54 | Adys | mm? |
| 09:41.05 | Adys | Starting to hate me more finally? :P |
| 09:41.07 | Zeal | wtf.. you're not even adding notes to say they are from bc? |
| 09:41.15 | Adys | who wah? |
| 09:41.16 | Zeal | well atm, i'm pissed off yes |
| 09:41.26 | Adys | dude |
| 09:41.27 | Adys | "This item is made by Alchemists with a skill level of 350." |
| 09:41.31 | Adys | thats enough. |
| 09:41.36 | Zeal | hardly |
| 09:41.39 | Adys | it is |
| 09:42.29 | Zeal | based on that argument, you should remvoe {{bc}} from instances too |
| 09:42.29 | Zeal | cos they have their levle requirements on it.. |
| 09:42.29 | Zeal | once again, flawed.. |
| 09:42.29 | Adys | I agree but others didnt |
| 09:42.29 | Adys | so it goes up on instances |
| 09:42.34 | Zeal | omg.. in which case.. let's not even put sources for lore.. |
| 09:42.46 | Zeal | seriously.. wtf. |
| 09:43.03 | Adys | Its a fucking banner it could have never been created |
| 09:43.11 | Adys | jees |
| 09:43.18 | Zeal | hm? |
| 09:43.24 | Adys | the bc tag |
| 09:43.32 | Shadowed | do you guys ever sleep |
| 09:43.40 | Zeal | adys power-naps |
| 09:43.42 | Shadowed | I think I see you guys arguing about something 24/7 :p |
| 09:43.45 | Adys | aye |
| 09:43.45 | Zeal | i sleep randomly |
| 09:43.46 | Adys | haha |
| 09:43.51 | Zeal | for long periods of time |
| 09:43.52 | Zeal | lol |
| 09:44.05 | Laraul | You'd be better off with Photoshop Elements |
| 09:44.09 | Zeal | anyways.. what you jsut said means what Adys? |
| 09:44.31 | Adys | I mean that we could have never created the {{bc}} template at all and the wiki wouldnt have suffered from it |
| 09:44.48 | Adys | On the end we want it on very few pages |
| 09:44.49 | Zeal | Laraul, i'd be better off with a per per use online application with a full feature set. |
| 09:44.56 | Shadowed | agreed with Zeal |
| 09:44.56 | Zeal | *a pay per use |
| 09:45.19 | *** join/#wowwiki Ali``` (n=aghareza@65.248.237.166) |
| 09:45.20 | Shadowed | sometimes I want to be able to use everything in an application, and I wouldn't mind paying for that one use. But I don't want to pay 700-800 when i'll use it once every few months |
| 09:45.31 | Zeal | we want it on all pages it's relevent to. |
| 09:45.49 | Zeal | aye, same Shadowed |
| 09:45.53 | Adys | deal with it, in one month half the wiki will be relevent to burning crusade |
| 09:45.56 | Adys | and that, we DONT want |
| 09:46.02 | Zeal | why? |
| 09:46.09 | Zeal | and it would not be half |
| 09:46.13 | Adys | because 1/ it makes the category totally unbrowsable and unreadable |
| 09:46.17 | Zeal | just half the stuff being looked at |
| 09:46.22 | Adys | 2/ it makes it useless |
| 09:46.26 | Laraul | The OSX color pallete selection tool is so much better than the one in WIndows |
| 09:46.39 | Zeal | 1) it doesn't 2) it doesn't |
| 09:46.56 | Adys | well 1 provokes 2 |
| 09:46.59 | Zeal | probably Laraul, apple care about that stuff |
| 09:47.11 | Adys | a category with 5000 articles in it is USELESS, thats a fact |
| 09:47.29 | Adys | and with 5000 articles im not exxagerating, its what itd be in about 8 weeks |
| 09:47.34 | Adys | exaggerating w/e |
| 09:47.45 | Laraul | Let the WiKi develop on it's own |
| 09:47.46 | Zeal | a category that grows too large to be usuable that someone hasn't bothered to create sub-cats for is useless, yes |
| 09:48.06 | Zeal | but that is not the case |
| 09:48.15 | Zeal | and when the time comes, can be resolved |
| 09:48.15 | Adys | Ok so say you want subcats |
| 09:48.24 | Adys | lets see, npcs, what could we put in as subcat |
| 09:48.36 | Zeal | er.. npcs? rofl |
| 09:48.41 | Laraul | You need to reverse the foreground/background colors |
| 09:48.46 | Zeal | this is why i made my category design proposal |
| 09:48.50 | Zeal | it never has these issues |
| 09:49.01 | Adys | all the npcs in azuremyst, bloodmyst, ghostland, silvermoon, exodar, shattrath, eversong, terokkar, hellfire, shadowmoon, netherstorm, blades edge, zangarmarsh and nagrand |
| 09:49.06 | Adys | wait... it already exists. |
| 09:49.47 | Adys | instance drops? they are categorized as Category:Instance:Blablah |
| 09:49.56 | Zeal | nope |
| 09:50.02 | Adys | Profession stuff? everything above 300 |
| 09:50.07 | Zeal | but moving on as i've already debunked that |
| 09:50.12 | Adys | Woot |
| 09:50.16 | Adys | very well then |
| 09:50.19 | Adys | now be reasonable |
| 09:50.44 | Adys | and then if you still think you've got the slightest chance to win a vote like that, go ahead, im not forcing anyone nor anything |
| 09:51.00 | Zeal | people are stupid, i have no beleive i'll win |
| 09:51.01 | Laraul | Your Main_Page needs a redesign |
| 09:51.09 | Zeal | but it's worth try, cos otherwise i'm gone. |
| 09:51.15 | Zeal | *beleif |
| 09:51.16 | Shadowed | It was redesigned like 3 months ago |
| 09:51.20 | Adys | im making you hear reason here, if something is flawed we dont care as long as both the majority of readers and editors are happy |
| 09:51.23 | Adys | thats what we want |
| 09:51.27 | Zeal | mine Laraul, or the wiki? :s |
| 09:51.35 | Laraul | The WiKi |
| 09:51.41 | Adys | and readers come above editors at all points, too |
| 09:52.17 | Zeal | yeah, majority of readers want to see Appendix 3 stricten from the wiki.. are we following that? ofc, as ragestorm and Kirkburn|afk have some sense on the matter. |
| 09:52.30 | Zeal | *ofc not |
| 09:52.38 | Adys | majority of readers? No |
| 09:52.44 | Zeal | hah, yes.. |
| 09:52.47 | Adys | Besides Im not gonna go into lore stuff |
| 09:53.00 | Adys | its a talking minority not a majority |
| 09:53.06 | Zeal | it was the largest and msot well known example i could think of. |
| 09:53.19 | Laraul | I find the wiki a little difficult to navigate |
| 09:53.19 | Zeal | it is a majority in that case |
| 09:53.21 | Adys | its the minority that populates wowradio and most popular wow lore forums, but its still a minority |
| 09:53.30 | Laraul | Well from the main_page |
| 09:53.36 | Zeal | aye Laraul, that's what i want to correct through good use of categories |
| 09:53.38 | Adys | and a minority who says "wowwiki is bad, do you hear me?" |
| 09:53.46 | Adys | and all the brainless idiots following it |
| 09:53.55 | Kirkburn|afk | Best not to talk about minority and majority over something that doesn't concern most visitors |
| 09:54.13 | Adys | indeed |
| 09:54.14 | Zeal | its a minority of people adys, not a minority of people who will comment and care about the issue at hand. |
| 09:54.22 | Zeal | keep it in context here |
| 09:54.35 | Adys | Anyways |
| 09:55.02 | Adys | if an editor has a problem with a policy or a way things are handled, a vote can perfectly be made and then we see who likes who doesnt like |
| 09:55.04 | Zeal | in the latter, it's the majority, and that's why i'm digusted at the the latest addition to the lore policy |
| 09:55.18 | Adys | and we <always> go by the majority. if later situation changed vote can be remade |
| 09:55.23 | Laraul | http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Main_Page <--- This is a little better done, IMO |
| 09:55.27 | Adys | but if ONE editor has a problem with a policy |
| 09:55.39 | Adys | and most people say its useless - is there really a point? |
| 09:55.46 | Zeal | yes |
| 09:55.57 | Adys | go ahead then |
| 09:56.00 | Adys | if you think that |
| 09:56.05 | Adys | Im just telling you, it will lead nowhere |
| 09:56.37 | Zeal | i'm not gunna lie, i consider my opinion above others as it's more informed and thought out. i wouldn't have that opinion otherwise. |
| 09:56.43 | Laraul | vlad_ needs to give ownership to someone else |
| 09:56.54 | Laraul | Cuz he seems to have lost interest |
| 09:56.55 | Zeal | i hate voting, as it belittes that. |
| 09:57.18 | Adys | thats okay zeal everyone can (and mostly does) consider his/her opinion above others, always |
| 09:57.25 | Adys | but thats not the point |
| 09:57.29 | Adys | you are still only one person |
| 09:57.43 | Zeal | but what would be the point in me just giving up on soemthing i care about strongly? |
| 09:57.47 | Adys | if more people like something, we will give that rather than the other choice |
| 09:57.51 | Shadowed | it sounds like Adys is trying to say, he doesn't want to make a change for 0.01% if the other 99.99% hate it |
| 09:58.08 | Adys | No shadowed, its not that I dont want |
| 09:58.18 | Adys | its that no one will make changes when a minority only wants it |
| 09:58.26 | Adys | if its in question, then vote |
| 09:58.31 | Zeal | one person with a more valid opinion that should carry more weight. on a lore issue, i would say ragestorm's and baggin's opinions carry more weight and more valid than anyone else's on the wiki. |
| 09:58.58 | Zeal | but the voting system prevents that from being so. |
| 09:59.08 | gdb | I think it's useful to visually distingush content from different expansions. The next expansion may not raise the level cap, it's not a good way to determine what comes from which expansion. That being said, throwing a tantrum about it is unhelpful. |
| 09:59.11 | Adys | Ragestorm has a veto power I believe |
| 09:59.24 | Zeal | naturally, admins have the ability to override. but when it's someone who isn't, that makes no difference. |
| 09:59.38 | gdb | "one person with a more valid opinion that should carry more weight." |
| 09:59.43 | gdb | saying that is what loses your argument |
| 09:59.53 | Shadowed | not really I agree with him in that |
| 09:59.57 | Zeal | adb, naturally you beleive in equal opinion |
| 09:59.58 | Adys | Not really gdb |
| 10:00.00 | gdb | It makes everyone else think "what a jerk" and ignore you. |
| 10:00.01 | Zeal | i don't |
| 10:00.01 | Adys | i also agree |
| 10:00.07 | Zeal | *gdb |
| 10:00.09 | Shadowed | somebody whos more active in a specific field should have a more valid opinion then some random person who contributed once |
| 10:00.19 | Shadowed | or didn't contribute at all but reads |
| 10:00.25 | Adys | Yes |
| 10:00.29 | gdb | Shadowed: That's a better distinction. |
| 10:00.41 | Zeal | that is what i said.. >_> |
| 10:00.48 | Shadowed | thats essentially what Zeal said, not exactly the best wording. but it's the same thing :p |
| 10:00.51 | Adys | The thing is here there is only one thing we ever want and its to make both readers and editors happy |
| 10:01.00 | Adys | readers become editors after some time eventually aswell |
| 10:01.12 | Adys | So we do go with the majority in general |
| 10:01.13 | Zeal | adys, said it before, people don't know what's best for them. |
| 10:01.39 | gdb | Adys: To use your earlier example, say the next expansion introduces another potion at skill 350. Saying "can be made by alchemists at skil 350" doesn't tell someone which epxansion they need to be able to make it. |
| 10:01.54 | Adys | In this case we can drop a note |
| 10:01.58 | Zeal | aye gdb : / |
| 10:01.59 | gdb | Not everyone is going to buy every expansion, you can't make any assumptions about the installed game after content releases past the original. |
| 10:02.00 | Adys | we dont need a banner for it |
| 10:02.07 | Zeal | and category adys? |
| 10:02.18 | Laraul | god damn automatic update |
| 10:02.25 | Adys | What tells you blizzard wont make BC a part of the game itself in the next expansion? |
| 10:02.34 | Adys | we dont know what will happen |
| 10:02.36 | gdb | I think something in the article simply saying "This content is provided by The Burning Crusade expansion pack" is enough, however. |
| 10:02.37 | Zeal | why is the instance more deserving of the banner than any other page? |
| 10:02.45 | gdb | Or "The Northrend Adventures" pack or whatever |
| 10:02.56 | Adys | I dont know zeal ask the ones who said it would |
| 10:02.59 | gdb | but something standard, in a standardized location |
| 10:03.09 | Zeal | adys.. you said it |
| 10:03.14 | Zeal | i jsut want you to repeat it |
| 10:03.30 | Zeal | so i pick holes in it yet again >_> |
| 10:03.31 | Adys | i said i didnt agree with the instance thing but the thing here is theres what |
| 10:03.45 | Adys | like 15-20 instances total counting raids |
| 10:03.54 | Adys | thats NOTHING compared to the mass of items, quests and npcs |
| 10:04.05 | Adys | so for 15-20 articles im not gonna care. |
| 10:04.23 | Adys | Once the mass is done we do the details and THEN we can think of something for instances |
| 10:04.34 | gdb | Ah, I think that banner is nice. |
| 10:04.42 | Zeal | yes, and isntead be inconsistant. i'd me be more in favour of not using a banner, even though i still hate the idea. |
| 10:04.50 | gdb | You mean this "This article concerns content exclusive to The Burning Crusade"? |
| 10:04.53 | gdb | that banner? |
| 10:04.57 | Adys | yes |
| 10:04.57 | Zeal | yes |
| 10:05.17 | Adys | here is the thing, even tho its exclusive to BC |
| 10:05.26 | gdb | I think it may be more visually appealing to stick it on the side in that other box on the right with something like |
| 10:05.26 | Adys | non bc buyers can still obtain all the non bop items |
| 10:05.30 | gdb | Era: The Burning Crusade |
| 10:05.36 | Adys | and can still inspect others |
| 10:05.40 | gdb | Era: Orginal Game (or World of Warcraft) or whatever |
| 10:05.42 | Zeal | in which i've said {{bc-section}} should be used. |
| 10:05.51 | Zeal | inspecting, no. |
| 10:05.57 | gdb | that being said, whatever is used should be used consistently |
| 10:06.00 | Zeal | as it can't be accessed or made use of. |
| 10:06.33 | Adys | i could find you many more reasons zeal but here is the fact |
| 10:06.45 | gdb | I think "This article covers content exlusive to" is better wording, by the way |
| 10:06.47 | Zeal | honestly.. if my source namespace existed, we wouldn't even be talking about this.. |
| 10:06.48 | Adys | majority agrees, and even tho they dont exactly know why they agree |
| 10:07.04 | Zeal | ..they're still wrong? |
| 10:07.05 | Zeal | rofl |
| 10:07.26 | gdb | Adys: This is a truism of users vs. developers (in any field). "Users can never tell you exactly what they want, but they can tell you exactly when they're not getting it." |
| 10:07.26 | Adys | No, "even tho they dont exactly know why, they agree" |
| 10:07.40 | *** join/#wowwiki Laraul (n=bohpig@ip72-200-90-128.tc.ph.cox.net) |
| 10:07.45 | Shadowed | Better to make a change to make the idiots happy, even if they don't know what they want? |
| 10:07.53 | Zeal | yes gdb, this is no different. |
| 10:08.02 | gdb | Referring to your userbase as idiots is counter-productive. |
| 10:08.20 | Shadowed | I prefer to think of it as being honest |
| 10:08.31 | Adys | its more than just a little bunch of peopel whining and saying "we dont want a bc banner" |
| 10:08.42 | Adys | its considered as the general opinion |
| 10:08.48 | Adys | meaning 90%+ |
| 10:08.50 | gdb | I'm Joe Schmoe off the street. I only came here because I saw a link on the wiki. I had no idea this was here. I use the site to look up enounter and rep grinding info. I don't post or edit aritcles. Am I an idiot? |
| 10:09.01 | Zeal | can think of many general opinions that are wrong.. |
| 10:09.05 | Zeal | lol |
| 10:09.16 | Adys | me too zeal but i dont care |
| 10:09.21 | Adys | its what people want? they get it |
| 10:09.35 | Adys | for one simple reason |
| 10:09.41 | Adys | we are not here to make money or whatever |
| 10:09.42 | Zeal | it's the general opinion C'Thun created the Aqir from the Silithid.. i've proven that wrong. |
| 10:09.47 | Adys | and everyone can edit |
| 10:09.53 | Shadowed | I'm not sure why you would argue about putting them on items however, the items themselves aren't exclusive to TBC, how you obtain them is |
| 10:10.06 | Adys | indeed |
| 10:10.11 | Adys | thats why we refused also |
| 10:10.19 | gdb | I don't personally care if it's a banner, something in a box on the side, etc, as long as it's consistently applied to all content concerning a given expansion. |
| 10:10.22 | Laraul | I'm going to play WoW I guess... need to setup the addons on the Mac anyhow |
| 10:10.25 | Zeal | if i saw people discarding what i said, and still continuing and putting up false lore, is that right adys? |
| 10:10.34 | gdb | hell, just put an icon in the upper right like the BC one |
| 10:10.39 | gdb | no banner, just the image |
| 10:10.40 | Shadowed | I could see putting it on quests, instances, zones that are exclusive to TBC however |
| 10:10.53 | Adys | theres a difference beetween "false" things and reasonless opinions zeal |
| 10:10.57 | Zeal | cos i'm sure given the chanace (well, given a liking for the wiki), they sure as hell would. |
| 10:11.02 | gdb | actully, just an icon is bad web design |
| 10:11.11 | Adys | Lore is lore, its designed by blizzard and its strict how we need to put it |
| 10:11.14 | Zeal | yes gdb :[p |
| 10:11.17 | Zeal | *:P |
| 10:11.18 | gdb | It's not clear what the icon means and you can't assume people will navigate from the main page. |
| 10:11.21 | Adys | Opinions are opinions, they difeer on people |
| 10:11.29 | Zeal | and good design is good design adys |
| 10:11.46 | Zeal | if the mjaority want to undermine that, you're letting them. |
| 10:11.57 | Adys | and? they prefer it that way |
| 10:12.06 | Adys | what do we loose ? |
| 10:12.07 | Zeal | they don't knwo what they prefer |
| 10:12.26 | Adys | they dont like it the other way and prefer it the original way |
| 10:12.42 | Adys | so. |
| 10:12.42 | Adys | Look i gotta eat so im not gonna argue one minute more on that |
| 10:12.45 | Zeal | integrity, functionality, consistantly (and they, not knowing it until they're done), the usability they were expecting to be improved. |
| 10:12.50 | Adys | do your vote, do whatever you want if you think you got a chance i got no problems with it |
| 10:13.04 | Zeal | it's like people complaining about taxes.. however if they were gone, this country would fall apart |
| 10:13.18 | Adys | Ill continue the recategorizing since it has the most chances to win and that its already been decided until the end of the vote you're planning to do |
| 10:13.24 | Adys | ill be back later |
| 10:13.56 | gdb | People should complain about taxes, always. |
| 10:14.05 | gdb | Government is inherantly inefficient. |
| 10:14.16 | Shadowed | people complain about everything regardless if it's going well or not |
| 10:14.43 | Zeal | yay for repeating myself.. i won't win a vote, i know that. but it would be silly and hipocritcial of me to leave without trying to change it. |
| 10:14.55 | gdb | So what are you proposing a vote on? |
| 10:15.04 | gdb | I'm not really able to glean it from what's been said here |
| 10:15.09 | gdb | Wether or not there is a banner? |
| 10:15.16 | gdb | Or wether or not it's applied consistently? |
| 10:15.24 | Zeal | gdb, this is true. it let's the goverment know people aren't happy, but how they improve it should be up to them, not the people. |
| 10:16.09 | Zeal | well gdb.. i want the banner tbh, until a better system (ie what i proposed when i first came here) comes along, but i could live without it, aslong as it's consitant. |
| 10:17.20 | Laraul | Ace2 addons are just evil |
| 10:17.51 | gdb | I don't care how the relavent expansion is indicated (might as well be the banner for now) but I do feel that it should be consistently applied to every article that concerns content in a given expansion. To not do so is confusing. We cannot assume that someone reading the site has any knoweldge beyond "WoW is an online game I'd like to try." |
| 10:18.18 | Zeal | exactly gdb |
| 10:18.24 | Zeal | that's all i'm asking |
| 10:18.28 | Shadowed | I don't agree with applying it to items even if they are obtained in TBC, everything else i can't see anything wrong with though |
| 10:18.49 | gdb | We also have to assume that articles are going to be deep linked from other sides (or search engines) and every page that has an expansion indicator is clearly marked. ie; not just an icon. |
| 10:19.14 | Shadowed | the banner thats being used is fine, it clearly explains what it's for and it doesn't get in the way of the content |
| 10:19.15 | Zeal | why is that Shadowed |
| 10:19.40 | Zeal | i only ask, because i'm hoping someone will actually have a justified reason |
| 10:19.58 | Shadowed | Because items aren't exclusive to TBC, where they are obtained maybe exclusive but that doesn't mean you can't obtain them, in the case of BOE's from the AH, or from inspecting other people that aren't in outlands |
| 10:20.25 | Zeal | shadowed, those things are intended to have {{bs-section}} used |
| 10:20.37 | Shadowed | havne't seen the {{bs-section}} yet |
| 10:20.41 | Shadowed | haven't! |
| 10:21.20 | Zeal | that way, any section of the article contain information only relevent to BC is still marked as such, because the article can actually end in the possession on a non-bc player. |
| 10:21.28 | Zeal | *containing |
| 10:21.38 | Zeal | *item can |
| 10:21.39 | Zeal | bah |
| 10:21.47 | Zeal | *end up in |
| 10:22.00 | Shadowed | Do you mean {{bc-section}} or {{bs-section} |
| 10:22.05 | Shadowed | {{bs-section}} that is |
| 10:22.13 | gdb | Shadowed: That's a good point. |
| 10:22.24 | Shadowed | because i don't see anything called bs-section but I do see a bc-section |
| 10:22.29 | gdb | Shadowed: I can actually agree with that. I think it should contain a source indicator, however. |
| 10:22.32 | Zeal | oh worry.. |
| 10:22.32 | Zeal | bc |
| 10:22.36 | Zeal | *sorry |
| 10:22.40 | gdb | Not necessarily the banner but the item source |
| 10:22.43 | gdb | rhm |
| 10:22.46 | gdb | may not even need that |
| 10:22.56 | gdb | Simply saying "This item drops in Zangarmarsh" |
| 10:23.00 | gdb | people click on the name of the zone |
| 10:23.05 | gdb | and see the banner |
| 10:23.12 | Shadowed | yeah thats what I was thinking |
| 10:23.13 | gdb | This article concerns content exclusive to The Burning Crusade. |
| 10:23.29 | Zeal | gdb, that goes against your point about skill levels, it would require further research for the user. |
| 10:23.30 | Shadowed | If you want to find out where an item drops most of the time i'm going to click the zone to get more information, or even see how to get to it |
| 10:23.30 | gdb | Again I think "This article covers content exclusive to The Burning Crusade." is better wording. |
| 10:24.02 | gdb | Zeal: I'm not sure I follow. |
| 10:25.25 | gdb | Zeal: The thing is, Zeal, and part of the point that Shadowed is making, is that a item aritcle does not cover conent exlusive to The Burning Crusade. |
| 10:25.40 | Zeal | you said about how simply saying its a 350 recipie does not make it clear to the user it's for bc. they would have to go look it up. |
| 10:25.45 | gdb | It covers content that is sourced from TBC, but one doesn't require the expansion to get the item. |
| 10:26.01 | gdb | So it's not exlusive. All players have access to the item. |
| 10:26.05 | Zeal | gdb, in many, it does |
| 10:26.07 | gdb | (unless, of course, its bop) |
| 10:26.12 | Shadowed | Well again, the item itself may not be exclusive to TBC, for example the item or pattern maybe BOE |
| 10:26.55 | Shadowed | The problem you run into I think is that if you only apply it to BOP items it's inconsistent, if you apply it to every item that comes from TBC it's confusing to users when they see it on the auction house and so on |
| 10:26.55 | Zeal | i should add, i am with you on that point, but this is not a question of source, it's a question of access (my proposal actually addressed it through source as you're suggesting) |
| 10:27.00 | gdb | Well, for example, my rogue's Wastwalker Shiv is exlusive TBC content, it's BoP |
| 10:27.14 | gdb | My rogue's Void-Talon is not exlusive as it was picked up on the AH. |
| 10:28.13 | Zeal | that's not inconsistant, that's accuracy. you're comparing a inaccurate blanket use of the banner |
| 10:28.56 | Shadowed | let me rephrase that |
| 10:29.37 | Shadowed | are we talking exclusive TBC content as in, you must be flagged for TBC to get/see it? As in, Outlands or Outland instances. Or are we talking content you can only obtain in TBC, but you can still buy or see it without TBC. |
| 10:30.05 | gdb | Shadowed: It's not an either / or, both circumstances should be addressed. |
| 10:30.11 | gdb | That or the banner should be more generic. |
| 10:30.17 | Zeal | look at it like this. in a item's article if you start talking about how to obtain it from q dungeon in outland, yet it's BoE. marking that article as BC would be wrong, but not marking it at all would also be wrong. marking that section of info only would be accurate. |
| 10:30.22 | *** join/#wowwiki dok3Dal (n=dok@AStrasbourg-251-1-75-252.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 10:30.22 | gdb | well, *could* be more generouc |
| 10:30.25 | gdb | generic |
| 10:30.38 | Zeal | *from a |
| 10:31.50 | Shadowed | Well if we're assuming that the user only knows that WoW is a MMO, i'd probably assume they are going to click the zone because they want to find out how to access that area or more information if they ever pickup the game. |
| 10:31.50 | gdb | "This article covers content from The Burning Crusade expansion" |
| 10:31.59 | Zeal | if people want to change the banner to be about the source, then that's fine. i only hopped onto what was set in motion, as source wasn't it. |
| 10:32.28 | Shadowed | actually I like what gbd said, using that and making it the banner for all items/quests/zones/ect from TBC would be much more accurate and less having to deal with a special case |
| 10:32.51 | Zeal | .. which to me, the current idea, is more desirable from a wow player's view, as it puts the article into a context they can understand. |
| 10:33.32 | Shadowed | honestly I think if you changed the banner to what gbd mentioned and stuck it in all content that came from TBC that would be fine |
| 10:33.55 | Shadowed | you don't have to be picky about what needs {{bc-section}} vs a banner, what item or page deserves one or the other. It's just nice and simple |
| 10:33.56 | Zeal | shadowed, this i why i said to Afkdys, if my proposal was given more attention and went through, we wouldn't even need to have this discussion. |
| 10:34.19 | Afkdys | dingdingding |
| 10:34.36 | Afkdys | we wouldnt have this discussion |
| 10:34.43 | Afkdys | we would have had another one arguing about something else |
| 10:34.46 | Afkdys | you're too idealistic |
| 10:34.54 | Afkdys | theres always whiners |
| 10:34.56 | Afkdys | but for that matter |
| 10:35.00 | Zeal | but shadowed.. what do you feel about the desriability of the access information. |
| 10:35.01 | Afkdys | theres always problems, aswell |
| 10:35.26 | Shadowed | Not sure what you mean Zeal |
| 10:35.30 | Zeal | as a wow player, would you like to see the information saying you can only get this with bc? |
| 10:35.31 | Afkdys | back to kitchen and editing |
| 10:36.15 | gdb | It's certianly an enticement for people who didn't buy it. |
| 10:36.26 | Shadowed | as a wow player I think saying "this is TBC content" is far more accurate over saying "this is only obtainable with TBC" |
| 10:36.35 | gdb | "Man, I'd really like to get that. I see I need TBC, better set aside cash from my next paycheck." |
| 10:36.41 | *** join/#wowwiki dok3Dal (n=dok@AStrasbourg-251-1-75-252.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 10:36.44 | Zeal | Afkdys, you know i'm idealistic, but not too. i have a healthy balance between being realistic, though often clouded by optimism |
| 10:36.47 | Shadowed | if we're talking about getting people trying to buy BC, then i'd go with the last one |
| 10:36.47 | gdb | Shadowed: yes |
| 10:37.02 | Shadowed | but that isn't accurate unless you use specific cases on items |
| 10:37.14 | Afkdys | thinking you wouldnt have had this discussion is too idealistic |
| 10:37.17 | Afkdys | it would have worked yes |
| 10:37.19 | Afkdys | but another way |
| 10:37.55 | Zeal | it's not a case of accuracy shadowed, imagine what i said, with the special cases put in place. would you want that as a wow player? |
| 10:38.32 | Zeal | that could be along side the source idea, it could be without it, irrelevent really. |
| 10:38.36 | Shadowed | well as a WoW player, I don't need to be told any of this since I already know that if an item can only be obtained in Netherstorm, or a dungeon can only be accessed through Nagrand then it's only for TBC. |
| 10:38.56 | Zeal | same question gdb |
| 10:38.57 | Afkdys | Zeal: do you actually type my name every time you ding me? :P |
| 10:39.12 | Shadowed | af - tab |
| 10:39.14 | Zeal | i type adys as its so short, but not Afkdys :P |
| 10:39.21 | Afkdys | meh |
| 10:39.27 | Shadowed | actually, just typing a - tab works |
| 10:39.48 | Zeal | and i have no idea what you said tbh, so meh. |
| 10:39.50 | gdb | Shadowed: I don't think that can be assumed. |
| 10:40.00 | gdb | Shadowed: Take EverQuest for example, it has 13 expansions. |
| 10:40.15 | gdb | If I say "it's in Barindu", does that tell you which expansion? |
| 10:40.40 | Afkdys | Bah |
| 10:40.42 | Zeal | well gdb, we don't know what will be happening. it may be cummulative (doubtful), it may run along side it (even more doubtful). |
| 10:40.48 | Afkdys | I cant take as nickname "ůďllyôůô˙peôháô" |
| 10:40.51 | Shadowed | Zeal said what I was going to |
| 10:40.53 | Afkdys | wth |
| 10:41.06 | Zeal | wtf? ;O_o |
| 10:41.07 | Shadowed | we can't assume Blizzard is going to use Outlands for the new expansion, but we also can't assume they wont |
| 10:41.14 | Shadowed | he wants to make a name we can't tab complete i'd imagine |
| 10:41.41 | gdb | Shadowed: I've never known of an online game where any given expansion beyond the original was a pre-requisite. |
| 10:41.46 | Zeal | ú bah.. i only know that key sequence :( |
| 10:41.48 | Afkdys | (Omega) ď l l y ô ů (tau) ˙ p e (tau) h (alpha) (tau) |
| 10:41.59 | Afkdys | mm my irc client doesnt like greek letters |
| 10:42.10 | gdb | Perhaps Blizzard will do it differently, I don't know. |
| 10:42.16 | gdb | Afkdys|Notafk: |
| 10:42.20 | gdb | (pressing tab) |
| 10:42.20 | Shadowed | gbd: wouldn't that mean it's assumed that Blizzard will make a new area that can only be accessed with the expansion and not use old content? |
| 10:42.31 | Afkdys|Notafk | Interesting indeed |
| 10:42.55 | Zeal | gdb, if there is another level cap increase (likely), it's unlikely they will create further 60-70 content for that expansion |
| 10:42.55 | gdb | Shadowed: That means I'm assuming that the next expansion will be accessible to players who have only the original game and that expansion. Regardless of which itteration. |
| 10:43.11 | Shadowed | on another note, is there a policy regarding people who put stuff things like "Found by <name>" or "Created: <name>" at the end/beggining of API pages? |
| 10:43.18 | Shadowed | or you just have to deal with it |
| 10:43.25 | gdb | Again, using EverQuest as an example, it has 13 expansion, and has had only 4 level cap increases. |
| 10:43.28 | Adys|AFK | guideline only |
| 10:43.30 | Zeal | anyways, you didn't answer my question gdb, same one i asked Shadowed ;) |
| 10:43.35 | Adys|AFK | dont "sign" things in general |
| 10:43.37 | Shadowed | Zeal: What question? |
| 10:43.42 | gdb | Zeal: I'm sorry, I didn't understand the question. |
| 10:43.57 | Shadowed | It's 3 AM, i'm trying to level herb and talk on IRC :p |
| 10:44.04 | Zeal | <Zeal> it's not a case of accuracy shadowed, imagine what i said, with the special cases put in place. would you want that as a wow player? |
| 10:44.11 | Zeal | <Zeal> that could be along side the source idea, it could be without it, irrelevent really. |
| 10:44.14 | Shadowed | Adys|AFK: soo I can nuke http://www.wowwiki.com/API_GetBattlefieldTeamInfo the "Created by" part at the end basically? |
| 10:44.22 | Adys|AFK | aye |
| 10:44.25 | Shadowed | yeah I don't understand the question either |
| 10:44.27 | Shadowed | gleeee! |
| 10:44.32 | Zeal | Shadowed.. you answered it |
| 10:44.33 | Zeal | lol |
| 10:44.38 | Zeal | so you must have |
| 10:44.42 | Shadowed | to be fair |
| 10:44.43 | Zeal | and with a valid point |
| 10:44.46 | Shadowed | I don't remember answering it |
| 10:44.54 | Shadowed | thats probably a sign I need sleep |
| 10:44.59 | Zeal | <Shadowed> well as a WoW player, I don't need to be told any of this since I already know that if an item can only be obtained in Netherstorm, or a dungeon can only be accessed through Nagrand then it's only for TBC. |
| 10:45.05 | Shadowed | oh that |
| 10:45.33 | Zeal | if people don't want access information, that's fine. |
| 10:45.39 | Shadowed | You don't happen to have the link that mentions that Adys|AFK do you? I'm trying to find it |
| 10:45.46 | Zeal | i would have thought they did, and jsut jumped on the band wagon. |
| 10:45.58 | Adys|AFK | I believe somewhere in the village pump or in a policy history |
| 10:46.03 | Adys|AFK | actually |
| 10:46.24 | Adys|AFK | http://www.wowwiki.com/WoWWiki_talk:Village_pump#Signing |
| 10:46.26 | Shadowed | http://www.wowwiki.com/WoWWiki:Village_pump#Stop_the_signing_and_discussing_please |
| 10:46.30 | Shadowed | just found that :p |
| 10:46.30 | Shadowed | thanks |
| 10:46.33 | Zeal | lol |
| 10:46.43 | Zeal | skip all the temaplate stuff ;) |
| 10:46.50 | Adys|AFK | http://www.wowwiki.com/WoWWiki_talk:Village_pump#.22Written_by:_xxx.22_in_articles |
| 10:47.02 | Shadowed | I just want to make sure before I go on a nuking spree of those tags, annoying to see them in the API's |
| 10:47.46 | Zeal | Adys|AFK hows about you answering that question btw? |
| 10:47.52 | Adys|AFK | which one? |
| 10:47.54 | Adys|AFK | Im afk :P |
| 10:48.06 | Adys|AFK | ding me if you want to talk to me =P |
| 10:48.06 | Zeal | well seeing as i apparently need to reword it.. |
| 10:49.19 | Zeal | As a wow player, would you like to see expansion access information on pages or not? |
| 10:49.29 | Adys|AFK | what do you mean? |
| 10:49.42 | Adys|givesuponaf | Bah! |
| 10:50.25 | Zeal | mean what is says :p something saying "you can only get this with this expansion" |
| 10:50.48 | Adys | if I didnt have bc, would I like to read content on the wiki with a tag "you cant get this without bc"? |
| 10:51.12 | Zeal | btw Shadowed, gdb. both in my goodbooks, broke the discussion down to the basics and brought up new points ;) |
| 10:51.37 | Zeal | sure, if you want to look at it from that angle. |
| 10:52.00 | Adys | most likely not |
| 10:52.06 | Adys | but i cant say since i have it :P |
| 10:52.13 | Zeal | actually, you worded that wrong.. or meant the wrong thing :s |
| 10:52.24 | Adys | what did you mean then? |
| 10:53.25 | Zeal | *"if i didn't have bc, would i like content you can't get to be marked with "you can't get this without bc"" |
| 10:53.32 | Zeal | *i can't |
| 10:54.43 | Adys | mm? |
| 10:54.45 | Adys | oh |
| 10:54.54 | Adys | what the hell did that mean :P |
| 10:55.15 | Adys | ah |
| 10:55.20 | Adys | so if I didnt buy bc |
| 10:55.21 | Zeal | O_o |
| 10:55.37 | Adys | would i like to see on the wiki "you cant get this without bc" on articles concerning things i cant get |
| 10:55.40 | Adys | its what i understood before |
| 10:55.42 | Zeal | yes |
| 10:55.44 | Adys | probably no |
| 10:55.47 | Adys | not* |
| 10:55.48 | Zeal | why not? |
| 10:56.07 | Adys | because id feel its wowwiki advertising so that i buy bc |
| 10:56.12 | Adys | but i really have no idea tbh |
| 10:56.20 | Adys | since i have bc and without it id have quitted the game ages ago |
| 10:56.21 | Zeal | fair enough |
| 10:56.36 | Adys | thats how i think id react tbh |
| 10:56.41 | Zeal | as i said, this is what the bc template had become before i got involved |
| 10:56.52 | Zeal | i have no idea if it's what users want |
| 10:57.39 | Zeal | if we're going to be instead wanting to show source of the information.. then there's no reason to even bother with the bc template, as you initially suggested. |
| 10:58.05 | Zeal | it should jsut be referenced like any other source of information. |
| 10:58.35 | Shadowed | not so bad, only two 3 signs in the battlefield API's at least |
| 10:58.36 | Zeal | (though the category issue still stands) |
| 10:58.52 | Zeal | huh Shadowed? :S |
| 10:59.09 | Shadowed | people putting "Documented by: blah" or "Created by: blah" in the API pages |
| 10:59.17 | Zeal | battlefield? :s |
| 10:59.28 | Shadowed | battleground specific APIs |
| 10:59.32 | Zeal | ah, kk |
| 10:59.33 | Zeal | lol |
| 10:59.54 | Zeal | i was wondering why we would have bf api on wowwiki.. lol |
| 11:00.29 | Zeal | so adys, how does that sound? |
| 11:00.53 | Adys | its a very short and kinda lound "ding" repeated three times |
| 11:00.59 | Adys | "dingdingding" |
| 11:00.59 | Zeal | haha |
| 11:01.34 | Adys | No honestly what i really care about atm is cleaning up the bc category |
| 11:01.38 | Adys | thing i wanted to do since ages now |
| 11:01.44 | Zeal | thing is i got the feeling Kirkburn|afk is someone who feels the access information should be there. |
| 11:01.59 | Adys | will see |
| 11:02.05 | Adys | anyways gonna eat |
| 11:02.10 | Adys | bbl |
| 11:02.15 | Zeal | you're not cleaning anything tbh adys, you're removing stuff you don't want in there just because it was crowded, instead of sorting it out. |
| 11:02.52 | Kirkburn|afk | There was a reason I made http://www.wowwiki.com/User:Kirkburn/Dev |
| 11:03.07 | Zeal | bored? ;) |
| 11:03.35 | Zeal | care to add your input Kirkburn|afk? |
| 11:03.41 | Kirkburn|afk | Later :) |
| 11:03.46 | Shadowed | Kirkburn|afk: did you have to make the table so small :p |
| 11:03.47 | Zeal | lol |
| 11:03.58 | Zeal | did you have to make a table?! lol |
| 11:06.08 | Shadowed | alright sleep for me |
| 11:06.13 | Zeal | nn Shadowed |
| 11:06.21 | Zeal | nice to speak to you tbh |
| 11:06.22 | Zeal | lol |
| 11:06.41 | *** join/#wowwiki dok3Dal (n=dok@AStrasbourg-251-1-75-252.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 12:52.52 | Kirkburn|afk | Up at 3? I /got up/ at 3am, voluntarily! |
| 12:53.27 | Kirkburn|afk | Oh wow, it's been dead in here for almost exaclty 2 hous? Weeeird :P |
| 12:55.16 | Zeal | aye :s |
| 12:55.25 | Zeal | i'm just about to make food and watch some tv |
| 13:07.12 | |FF|Im2good4u | does any got 2.0.8 mirror enGB since my downloaders gives no error but it doesnt downlaod anything either |
| 13:10.27 | *** join/#wowwiki mxs (i=mxs@unaffiliated/mxs) |
| 13:11.09 | mxs | g'morning :) For future reference, Score is my nick on wowwiki. |
| 13:12.06 | gdb | I think "Guest" is mine! |
| 13:12.11 | gdb | ;-) |
| 13:12.59 | *** join/#wowwiki JamieSI (n=spitfire@host86-137-44-89.range86-137.btcentralplus.com) |
| 13:13.15 | JamieSI | Is Score here? |
| 13:13.37 | mxs | yupp |
| 13:13.43 | mxs | <-- Score |
| 13:15.14 | JamieSI | read my message |
| 13:15.27 | JamieSI | and get your facts correct before shouting out stuff |
| 13:15.35 | JamieSI | I've only just added our mirror of 2.08 |
| 13:15.53 | JamieSI | I've not edited it to the top |
| 13:15.55 | mxs | Oh, I did get my facts right. Look at the History. |
| 13:15.59 | mxs | Philson did. |
| 13:16.09 | JamieSI | but I didn't |
| 13:16.10 | JamieSI | he may of |
| 13:17.04 | mxs | thanks for DELETING my message. |
| 13:17.06 | JamieSI | and our site is being renammed to Informer soon as we don't just cover strategy anymore |
| 13:17.24 | JamieSI | I deleted it because it's aloud of shit |
| 13:17.31 | JamieSI | when did I keep rebouncing mine to the top on 2.08? |
| 13:17.34 | mxs | you don't delete discussion. Period. |
| 13:17.38 | mxs | Rebuke it. Don't delete it. |
| 13:18.02 | mxs | I said Philson and JamieSI. I assume you work together since you are working for the same site. Valid assumption to make. |
| 13:18.13 | JamieSI | Philson doesn't work at SI........ |
| 13:18.21 | JamieSI | who is Philson and what made you think that? |
| 13:20.18 | mxs | what in particular ? http://www.wowwiki.com/index.php?title=Patch_mirrors&diff=502290&oldid=502260 |
| 13:20.49 | mxs | now I'm reinserting my comment. You can rebuke it, I can comment further on it, but you do not delete discussion. Period. |
| 13:21.05 | mxs | in either case, it is odd |
| 13:21.09 | mxs | Philson is the nth21 guy usually |
| 13:21.13 | mxs | you are right in that |
| 13:21.28 | JamieSI | ok |
| 13:21.33 | JamieSI | I don't know what NTH21 is |
| 13:21.38 | mxs | though "I've only just added the mirror" is missing alphabetization as well |
| 13:21.40 | JamieSI | but I'm site Manager for Strategy Informer |
| 13:21.45 | mxs | the "other" guy who continually bumped his page ;) |
| 13:21.47 | mxs | alright |
| 13:22.49 | JamieSI | WOW Source oftens bumps to top |
| 13:22.52 | JamieSI | I often change theirs back |
| 13:22.57 | mxs | actually, I bump them to top |
| 13:22.59 | mxs | as per rules |
| 13:23.05 | mxs | 4players comes before fsraid |
| 13:23.21 | Kirkburn|afk | In any case, make sure you stick to alphabetical listings |
| 13:23.31 | mxs | yepp, that is my intention |
| 13:23.33 | JamieSI | indeed |
| 13:23.45 | JamieSI | why is WOW source at top? |
| 13:23.59 | Kirkburn|afk | Then move it |
| 13:24.16 | Kirkburn|afk | This isn't a case of "well he did it, so I can" |
| 13:24.32 | Kirkburn|afk | Oh I see |
| 13:24.36 | JamieSI | I know, MXS just said he bumps it at top |
| 13:24.39 | Kirkburn|afk | Well, look at the address |
| 13:24.54 | Kirkburn|afk | It's 4players, despite the name (which is unfortunate, I know) |
| 13:25.13 | JamieSI | So it's based on url names? |
| 13:25.16 | mxs | I don't bump it at top per se, I alphabetize the sites |
| 13:25.19 | JamieSI | because we're renaming to Informer soon |
| 13:25.22 | mxs | and 4players is, alphabetically speaking, at teh top |
| 13:25.24 | JamieSI | since the site doesn't cover just strategy |
| 13:25.27 | mxs | yes, it is based on url names |
| 13:25.28 | Kirkburn|afk | Mirrors are to be listed in alphabetical order by second-level domain (www.domain.tld) |
| 13:25.37 | JamieSI | ok |
| 13:25.39 | mxs | second level domain, i.e. wirebrain.de, strategy-informer.de, 4players.de |
| 13:25.44 | Kirkburn|afk | I notice that 4players have wangled two listings |
| 13:26.21 | JamieSI | aye the wowsource one |
| 13:26.22 | Kirkburn|afk | They've got themselves under WoW Source and 4players for some of them. Sneaky. |
| 13:26.23 | JamieSI | and 4players |
| 13:26.26 | mxs | kirk : I'm not sure they are the same people all the time ... There are different "sections" on 4players that do not really interact with one another. At least that's what I gathered the last time I met some of their people at a lanparty :) |
| 13:26.48 | Kirkburn|afk | Odd |
| 13:26.50 | mxs | can remove one of them, they usually do go to different pages though |
| 13:27.14 | mxs | jamie : if it was site-name, a.wirebrain.de would be right at the top :P |
| 13:27.36 | JamieSI | hehe but you'd remove the A as the sites really called Wirebrain |
| 13:27.43 | mxs | no, it is not |
| 13:27.46 | mxs | it's historically called a. |
| 13:27.47 | mxs | :) |
| 13:27.52 | Kirkburn|afk | heh |
| 13:27.54 | mxs | since ... uh ... 2001 or so |
| 13:27.55 | Kirkburn|afk | I'm off to Uni now |
| 13:28.09 | mxs | have fun :) |
| 13:28.18 | JamieSI | lol |
| 13:28.20 | zeal | O_o |
| 13:28.31 | zeal | second-level? and why not sub-domain? |
| 13:28.39 | mxs | jamie : wirebrain.de, per se, doesn't carry anything (and no, I cannot just move a. there since there is plenty of other stuff on that system unrelated to wow :) |
| 13:28.44 | mxs | zeal : easy to cheat |
| 13:28.48 | Kirkburn|afk | Yeah |
| 13:28.58 | mxs | zeal : 11111aaaaaaafullyfuncitonal.somethingorother.com |
| 13:29.25 | zeal | yes, but it's not fair to site's that have valid sites under diff sub-domains |
| 13:29.37 | JamieSI | do you know what would be fairest? |
| 13:29.40 | mxs | I don't care that a. is not listed at the top |
| 13:29.40 | JamieSI | First served |
| 13:29.43 | Kirkburn|afk | Deleting the page. |
| 13:29.45 | JamieSI | person to add first gets in place first |
| 13:29.52 | mxs | useless |
| 13:30.01 | mxs | a.) people add to top and bottom |
| 13:30.11 | Kirkburn|afk | V hard to police, I'm sorry |
| 13:30.13 | JamieSI | the page will always generate a problem I think |
| 13:30.18 | mxs | b.) I am usually first. Are you willing to accept that ? |
| 13:30.21 | mxs | not really |
| 13:30.25 | mxs | we just need a random operator |
| 13:30.33 | mxs | kirk : self-policing works best, IMO :) |
| 13:30.47 | mxs | anybody want to code some wikisyntax for random ordering ? :> |
| 13:30.48 | Kirkburn|afk | Hah, it's never worked before ... |
| 13:31.13 | mxs | Kirkburn|afk: it's bound to, at some point, hopefully :) |
| 13:31.26 | JamieSI | you'll have thousands of links before long |
| 13:31.29 | JamieSI | the more people hear |
| 13:31.32 | JamieSI | the more you'll get |
| 13:31.37 | JamieSI | I found it out of luck |
| 13:31.49 | mxs | What I don'T get is why people feel the need to bump their pages. It's a couple thousand hits on a patch day. Even with the most obnoxious ad network that won't pay for a Pizza. |
| 13:31.50 | JamieSI | and I'll admit, it's gainned us about an extra 10k each day |
| 13:31.52 | JamieSI | unique |
| 13:31.56 | JamieSI | so I feel it's important |
| 13:32.04 | JamieSI | as we're running a business |
| 13:32.10 | JamieSI | like fileplanet |
| 13:32.12 | JamieSI | gamespot |
| 13:32.15 | mxs | all the more props to you for running a business |
| 13:32.20 | mxs | don't compare yourself to the bigwigs though :P |
| 13:32.28 | JamieSI | We're big in UK :) |
| 13:32.31 | mxs | the bigwigs go to blizzard and say "link us !" |
| 13:32.32 | JamieSI | 40,000 unique a day |
| 13:32.39 | JamieSI | Blizzard contacted us about that |
| 13:32.42 | mxs | that's not "big" in terms of "bigwigs" :) |
| 13:32.43 | JamieSI | I've yet to reply |
| 13:32.50 | mxs | imo, anyway |
| 13:32.55 | JamieSI | because they could kill our servers lol |
| 13:32.59 | JamieSI | with that amount of traffic |
| 13:33.06 | mxs | heh |
| 13:33.17 | JamieSI | even knowing we've got queues |
| 13:33.25 | JamieSI | I hate seeing a queue of 300 people on the site |
| 13:33.29 | mxs | It's not really hard to build an infrastructure to serve dozens of thousands of connections |
| 13:33.31 | mxs | r |
| 13:33.33 | mxs | not that expensive eithe |
| 13:33.37 | mxs | I keep wondering why Blizzard doesn't do it |
| 13:33.48 | mxs | I hate queues |
| 13:33.53 | JamieSI | same |
| 13:33.57 | Kirkburn|afk | You can do it by site name, but that's easy to cheat on. Or sub-domain, but that's also easy to cheat on. First-come first served, impossible to police. Therefore we've resorted to the one thing that at least stays constant - domain name. |
| 13:33.59 | mxs | That's why you either get your file on wirebrain, or you get a 503 |
| 13:34.00 | JamieSI | which is why I may not reply |
| 13:34.16 | mxs | Kirkburn|afk: just wait till redirector pages kick in ! :-P |
| 13:34.26 | Kirkburn|afk | lol |
| 13:34.35 | mxs | Kirkburn|afk: I keep thinking about how to best do a random operator on a wiki page, but they are all ugly |
| 13:34.41 | Kirkburn|afk | Resolved domain name, then :P |
| 13:34.57 | mxs | Kirkburn|afk: of the site describing the patches, or the site hosting them ? :> |
| 13:35.03 | mxs | Kirkburn|afk: I can play devil's advocate all day long ! |
| 13:35.18 | Kirkburn|afk | I can't, I have Uni :( |
| 13:35.27 | Kirkburn|afk | At least I got my 1,200 word essay written. |
| 13:35.46 | mxs | JamieSI: truely though, even if you calculate conservatively, you can get away with about $0.2 per gigabyte of transferred data with indefinite maximum transfer rate |
| 13:35.54 | mxs | Kirkburn|afk: on what ? |
| 13:35.58 | Kirkburn|afk | I need to go over it again so it can't be flagged for plagiarism :/ |
| 13:36.42 | Kirkburn|afk | Foundation Design |
| 13:36.42 | zeal | the likely hood of a site creating a name just for wiki place is jsut as equal as creating a domain, so saying that's cetable is defunct, as they both are. |
| 13:36.50 | mxs | zeal: not really, if the wikipage directs enough traffic and you have pop-unders, interstitials, and all other kinds of crap on there, the domain is paid for in a few days |
| 13:37.06 | mxs | zeal: it's not really useful to the guy wanting to get a patch, but oh well |
| 13:37.17 | Kirkburn|afk | Domains cost about ÂŁ10. Not much. |
| 13:37.38 | Kirkburn|afk | (MUCH less for certain types, such as .org.uk) |
| 13:37.47 | JamieSI | aye |
| 13:37.54 | mxs | .DE is 4-5 Euros in bulk |
| 13:38.00 | mxs | 6 if not |
| 13:38.05 | mxs | 10 if you have a price-gouger |
| 13:38.59 | Kirkburn|afk | Bbl! |
| 13:39.11 | mxs | good luck on not getting thrown out ! |
| 13:39.17 | zeal | mxs. what you said made no impact on how they would difference |
| 13:39.20 | zeal | *differ |
| 13:39.24 | zeal | my point sitll stands |
| 13:39.45 | mxs | zeal: ah, now I get your point :) |
| 13:39.59 | JamieSI | Wahat site do you run Zeal? |
| 13:40.10 | mxs | zeal: it is a lot easier to just add a subdomain though. And you run less of a risk of being outed as an idiot. :) |
| 13:40.33 | mxs | I mean, we are talking sleazy SEO-spam tactics here |
| 13:40.35 | zeal | a sub-domain, yes msx |
| 13:40.45 | zeal | i'm talking about a name |
| 13:40.59 | mxs | yeah, and neither are used for alphabetization |
| 13:41.17 | mxs | just the 2nd level domain. Until ppl start cheating on that |
| 13:41.27 | zeal | and i'm saying there is not reason for them not to be. they have no benefit or negative compared to ordring by domain. |
| 13:41.38 | mxs | though heck, I hate the word cheating. The objective here is to provide a mirror for people who can't otherwise get the patch. |
| 13:42.08 | zeal | mhm |
| 13:42.09 | JamieSI | its the prime list too |
| 13:42.14 | JamieSI | and brings a lot of hits for your wiki |
| 13:42.15 | JamieSI | via google |
| 13:42.27 | zeal | and JamieSI, i run no active site atm except my personal one, which is just really a placeholder |
| 13:42.40 | JamieSI | I see |
| 13:42.45 | mxs | zeal : it is an additional barrier though. |
| 13:42.45 | JamieSI | I work from home for SI |
| 13:42.52 | JamieSI | I'm not the owner |
| 13:42.55 | JamieSI | just Site Manager |
| 13:42.58 | zeal | www.worldoflorecraft.com is on it's way as some point though.. i'm sitting on it until wowwiki forces me to go it alone. |
| 13:43.21 | JamieSI | cool |
| 13:43.25 | JamieSI | I'm enjoying WOW |
| 13:43.34 | mxs | hehe |
| 13:43.35 | JamieSI | blizzard gave me a free copy with a few months free |
| 13:43.38 | JamieSI | mouse matts |
| 13:43.42 | JamieSI | fridge magnets lol |
| 13:43.52 | mxs | yeah, promo materials rock |
| 13:43.52 | JamieSI | posters which are cool |
| 13:43.53 | zeal | how come? O_o |
| 13:43.55 | JamieSI | aye |
| 13:44.03 | mxs | zeal: organize large lanparty. |
| 13:44.05 | mxs | ding. |
| 13:44.13 | JamieSI | Because I'm Site Manager for Strategy Informer, large Gaming industry site |
| 13:44.18 | JamieSI | Got contacts with most companies |
| 13:44.25 | mxs | if you have decent people working on the promotion aspect of it, you can get lots of heavy hitters supporting you |
| 13:44.42 | zeal | kk |
| 13:44.49 | mxs | that's the other way, yeah :) |
| 13:45.51 | zeal | and i fail to see how lanparty is important enough to recieve promotion |
| 13:45.51 | JamieSI | do they not give stuff for WIKI? |
| 13:45.51 | mxs | what I keep wondering about is the disparity between Blizzard US and Blizzard EU or Plan 9 CN |
| 13:45.51 | mxs | JamieSI: they probably offer it the fansite program |
| 13:45.51 | JamieSI | aye |
| 13:45.51 | JamieSI | they would for fansites |
| 13:45.51 | zeal | no JamieSI. the wiki is not part of the fan site program |
| 13:45.56 | zeal | and they probably have an issue with our google ads |
| 13:46.03 | JamieSI | google ads? why? |
| 13:46.05 | mxs | zeal: if you have 2k people attending, you better believe it is important enough ;) Usually lots of tournaments in the very games they offer (Warcraft 3 in Blizzard's casE) |
| 13:46.05 | JamieSI | SI has google ads |
| 13:46.13 | zeal | and the whole concept behind the wiki allowing for practically any exploits popping up |
| 13:46.27 | mxs | as opposed to ... curse gaming ? |
| 13:46.43 | mxs | Google ads are only a problem if you are small enough that they can pressure you |
| 13:46.49 | mxs | basically they don't like the goldseller ads |
| 13:46.56 | mxs | but then again, they don't want to pay your hosting, either |
| 13:47.01 | zeal | mxs, my point was, wow is an online game, while your customers would be interested ofc, your company isn't relevent to it. |
| 13:47.27 | mxs | what I hate about Blizz US is that they don't "like" third-party mirrors. Topics on it get deleted, no checksums provided, no support given (even if their official mirrors are often days late) |
| 13:47.45 | mxs | whereas Blizzard EU provides checksums, has a dedicated thread for mirrors, and generally helps with issues surrounding it |
| 13:47.59 | mxs | while Plan 9 even gives you the MD5 checksums smack-dab on their WoW homepage |
| 13:48.17 | mxs | zeal: I don't run a company, jamie works for one :P |
| 13:48.22 | zeal | because they don't want their customers turning to third party wher they may potentially receive problems that they will then want support with from them. |
| 13:48.32 | mxs | true |
| 13:48.36 | zeal | i can't blame them for that really. |
| 13:48.54 | mxs | but it would go a LONG way in mitigating those problems if they just released checksums and checksummers |
| 13:48.57 | mxs | I can |
| 13:49.05 | mxs | they KNOW people are getting the patches elsewhere anyway |
| 13:49.14 | mxs | they can actually IMPROVE security by acknowledging that |
| 13:49.30 | zeal | yeah, but there's possiblity of gold ads, links to exploits etc.. |
| 13:49.40 | mxs | right now, the potential gamer getting a patch from site XYZ can check its validity only through letting the blizzard downloader check it. There, I just lost 95% of gamers. |
| 13:49.48 | zeal | not soemthing they want promoted so that their customer's are exposed to. |
| 13:49.58 | mxs | They run a game with 8 million people in it. What the **** do they expect ? |
| 13:50.20 | mxs | their customers get exposed to it EVERY day in-game through tells or world chat channel.s |
| 13:50.31 | mxs | or have you never seen the igs365 ads in mail or game ? |
| 13:50.42 | mxs | It's stupidity |
| 13:50.48 | mxs | it's easy for them to fix it |
| 13:50.58 | JamieSI | well |
| 13:51.05 | JamieSI | I think I'm going to play Warcraft 3 DOTA lol |
| 13:51.05 | mxs | of course, the very BEST version would be where they offered plain HTTP downloads themselves |
| 13:51.15 | JamieSI | take a day off |
| 13:51.17 | JamieSI | do some gaming |
| 13:51.19 | mxs | which, as said, would run them $0.2 for 1gb patches |
| 13:51.21 | mxs | :) |
| 13:51.34 | mxs | or in this case, less than a cent for these little patche |
| 13:51.36 | mxs | s |
| 13:51.41 | zeal | i've never seen that one mxs, but yes, i get about 3 a day |
| 13:51.49 | mxs | (I use the amazon S3 distribution pricing, which does scale and does run $0.2 per GB) |
| 13:51.58 | zeal | but that doesn't mean they should make things worse |
| 13:52.01 | mxs | yeah, bloodsuckers :) |
| 13:52.08 | mxs | they are making things worse, IMO |
| 13:52.11 | JamieSI | I hate blizzards bit torret download system |
| 13:52.15 | JamieSI | often is slow |
| 13:52.18 | JamieSI | anyways |
| 13:52.20 | JamieSI | gotta run |
| 13:52.21 | JamieSI | cya! :P |
| 13:52.29 | mxs | by not releasing proper checksums and accredited tools to check them with and putting it in their support pages, keylogger proliferate |
| 13:52.33 | mxs | well |
| 13:52.35 | mxs | BitTorrent works well |
| 13:52.41 | mxs | the blizzard downloader is not getting better though |
| 13:52.56 | mxs | I did write them a mail at game release on how to improve its performance by a lot |
| 13:53.02 | mxs | Never got a reply |
| 13:53.18 | mxs | (and since I've coded BT clients in the past, I know fully well what I am talking about :) |
| 13:53.34 | zeal | it's a loose loose situation for them really mxs. doing nothing is just easier. |
| 13:53.47 | zeal | *lose lose |
| 13:53.59 | mxs | easier yeah. But they get 8 million times 10 bucks a month. Easy is not the way to go. |
| 13:55.00 | mxs | I can literally build a distribution system for their patches in a day that can handle 1 million concurrent connections, using tools and companies readily available, and not being too expensive. They have lots of people, money, infrastructure, and weight to throw around. They could do it in less than that. |
| 13:55.26 | *** join/#wowwiki AdfliCto (n=blahblah@0x57327d07.virnxx18.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk) |
| 13:55.26 | mxs | I mean heck, have you played the guildwars beta ? |
| 13:55.31 | mxs | the client was 64kbyte when it came out |
| 13:55.50 | mxs | all content was streamed as you needed it, and it was fricking fast --even when they were crushed by loads of gamers |
| 13:56.39 | zeal | never played it, onyl watched enough not to want to. |
| 13:56.59 | zeal | anyways, while i'm sure you have soem expertise, it's clearly not as simple as you suggest. |
| 13:57.01 | mxs | can you figure out a reason, for instance, why their updater has to always include the full patch.txt, BNUpdate.exe, etc. when 95% of that never changes ? Or why the downloader, which carries a 1kb BitTorrent file, has to be 750kb large ? |
| 13:57.17 | mxs | I don't like the game itself, but the distribution method interests :) |
| 13:57.32 | mxs | zeal: it really is. |
| 13:57.47 | mxs | they are partway there, even |
| 13:58.11 | mxs | all the patch content they have sitting on webseed-servers already (which is why non-p2p works in their downloader). |
| 13:58.12 | zeal | because most of thier patches are cummulative is my guess.. |
| 13:58.17 | *** join/#wowwiki Balins (n=ds_19@h31n1fls33o850.telia.com) |
| 13:58.24 | mxs | look into the patch MPQs |
| 13:58.30 | mxs | there is that part that stays the same |
| 13:58.33 | mxs | and the part that changes |
| 13:58.45 | mxs | they could save quite some bw by diffing the parts that stay the same |
| 13:58.45 | zeal | all i see is that they contain it |
| 13:58.51 | zeal | doesn't tell me the changes |
| 13:59.16 | mxs | if you look closer, you'll see that patch.txt grows every time. The current patch.html gets prepended to the top of the file in text form. |
| 13:59.28 | mxs | in 1.12, every patch carried a 450kb patch.txt file |
| 13:59.36 | zeal | dunno how guild wars does it, but i'm not surprised theres a better method than the mpq system they use |
| 13:59.40 | mxs | the bnupdate.exe changes once in a blue moon, but gets transferred every time |
| 14:00.04 | mxs | the mpq-method is quite solid, the data inside it has a lot of redundancy though |
| 14:00.17 | zeal | so.. why are you saying patch.txt shouldn't be included? |
| 14:00.20 | mxs | and distribution-wise, it really is not hard to offer alternate, fast download systems |
| 14:00.26 | mxs | I'm not saying that |
| 14:00.32 | mxs | I'm saying that when you have 1.11 installed |
| 14:00.36 | mxs | and patch to 1.12 |
| 14:00.39 | mxs | with the 1.11 to 1.12 patcher |
| 14:00.54 | mxs | there is NO reason to include all the file data already in 1.11 in patch.txt in the 1.12 patch file as well |
| 14:01.12 | mxs | 1.11->1.12 it's below 1% of the size, but 1.12.0 to 1.12.1 it's considerable |
| 14:01.25 | mxs | this problem was solved 20-25 years ago with the "diff" utility :) |
| 14:01.28 | zeal | isn't that because of how the mpq system works? |
| 14:01.34 | mxs | yes and no |
| 14:01.38 | zeal | it can only replace with a new file, not edit in-place. |
| 14:01.42 | mxs | MPQ is just a data container |
| 14:01.49 | mxs | BNUpdate.exe actually does the heavy lifting |
| 14:02.35 | mxs | looking at the instruction language for patch applications they have (seems XML-based), it should be quite easy to add a command "patch file X with diff Y" |
| 14:03.06 | mxs | It's not something that would have to be there day 1 |
| 14:03.11 | mxs | but we are 2.X years into the game now |
| 14:03.42 | mxs | and basically, we're still using the exact same patch method, exact same distribution system (which is faulty) |
| 14:03.48 | zeal | as i said, i'm sure you have the expertise, but apparently it's not that simple. not saying they can't make mistakes, jsut that it's probably for a reason you haven't considered and might agree with if you worked for them. |
| 14:04.22 | zeal | well, with the mpq organization being revamped that's not 100% accurate, but yeah. |
| 14:04.36 | mxs | ok, slight changes were made :P |
| 14:04.40 | zeal | aye |
| 14:04.43 | mxs | but nothing substantial, really |
| 14:04.58 | mxs | heck, BitTorrent.com licensed the uTorrent engine. |
| 14:05.07 | zeal | like the new mpq format changes for larger mpqs |
| 14:05.09 | mxs | Even with the full GUI, that's 160kb. |
| 14:05.26 | zeal | yeah, onyl read that today after updating, hehe. |
| 14:05.30 | mxs | as opposed to the vastly inferior Blizzard Downloader at 760kb |
| 14:05.48 | zeal | not liscenced anymore ofc |
| 14:05.51 | zeal | it now owns it |
| 14:06.09 | mxs | hehe |
| 14:06.15 | mxs | Bram got a large dose of money |
| 14:06.18 | mxs | gotta do SOMETHING with it :> |
| 14:06.20 | zeal | aye |
| 14:07.00 | mxs | heck, they could innovate dynamic upstream limitation |
| 14:07.24 | mxs | i.e. measure tcp connection characteristics to figure out whether they are choking the upstream and limit bw 10% below that point thereafter |
| 14:07.49 | mxs | that would increase BitTorrent throughput manifold on many systems |
| 14:08.38 | mxs | (reason for the technically interested : As the upstream buffers fill up, the RTT to the target incrases. Once that RTT increases, the BDP increases. If that increases and the buffers are not large enough (they usually are not), throughput on the ingress side will drop down due to missing ACKS) |
| 14:08.54 | mxs | (this appliesto most DSL/cable modems with large buffers) |
| 14:09.52 | mxs | but even ditching BitTorrent; I'm sure Akamai, Amazon S3, or other content distribution networks would be happy to provide extremely fast and fluid patch downloads. |
| 14:10.19 | mxs | At a price, of course, and that price > the current price, but at a considerable increase in customer satisfaction. |
| 14:10.31 | mxs | More satisfied customers = better word of mouth = more customers. |
| 14:10.47 | *** join/#wowwiki Laraul (i=spoof@ip72-200-90-128.tc.ph.cox.net) |
| 14:10.47 | mxs | simply speaking, anyway. |
| 14:11.41 | mxs | and I'm sure some PHB at Blizzard (maybe the guy who thought up Paid Character Transfers) will have a counterpoint to that that I'd immediately dismiss for idiocy :) |
| 14:12.02 | zeal | i don't agree with the price issue |
| 14:12.17 | mxs | how so ?= |
| 14:12.30 | mxs | let's assume, for the sake of argument, that 1GB = $0.2 |
| 14:12.31 | Laraul | Well... I managed to get WoW running at 200-300 fps in Mac OSX |
| 14:12.34 | zeal | that price >>>>>> the current price (aka, merely one http and the development costs) |
| 14:12.59 | mxs | how so ? :) |
| 14:13.10 | zeal | what do you mean how so? |
| 14:13.16 | zeal | thats what the current setup is |
| 14:13.23 | mxs | the development is already done. The Blizzard Downloader currently already speaks HTTP. |
| 14:13.35 | zeal | compared to the cost of hosting band bandwidth of such a delivery system, it's nothing. |
| 14:13.42 | Laraul | what are you talkng abot? |
| 14:13.43 | mxs | oh, that. |
| 14:14.06 | zeal | there's still further development. you do know they've been trying to improve it right? |
| 14:14.10 | mxs | not really, I assume the bandwidth is around 1/500 or so of what they would ordinarily use. Probably closer to 1/200. |
| 14:14.21 | zeal | the beta made several changes and theres been another of live changes before and after then. |
| 14:14.21 | mxs | trying being the operative word. |
| 14:14.25 | Laraul | what are you talking about? |
| 14:14.32 | mxs | Laraul: Patches |
| 14:14.45 | Laraul | What does that have to do with bandwidth? |
| 14:14.50 | zeal | *a number of live |
| 14:14.54 | mxs | zeal: and as I said, that price > the current price. |
| 14:15.08 | zeal | i know, jsut putting emphasis on the > |
| 14:15.11 | mxs | zeal: but please, 1GB is doable for $0.2 |
| 14:15.17 | mxs | most patches are a fifth of that |
| 14:15.22 | mxs | so $0.04 per customer |
| 14:15.28 | mxs | at monthly patches |
| 14:15.28 | zeal | on the scale of this customer base? |
| 14:15.33 | mxs | you forget |
| 14:15.35 | zeal | it's not really pheasable. |
| 14:15.40 | mxs | each customer pays $10 per month or so |
| 14:16.04 | mxs | 0.4% of the price they pay. |
| 14:16.05 | Laraul | Woah... 1GB = $0.02? Where do you get that figure from? |
| 14:16.09 | mxs | And that's calculated GENEROUSLY. |
| 14:16.12 | mxs | Laraul: 0.2 |
| 14:16.19 | mxs | Laraul: not 0.02 |
| 14:16.25 | zeal | mxs, you're assuming other costs, and that they would be willing to use that money. |
| 14:16.33 | Laraul | Er where do you get that figure from? |
| 14:16.44 | mxs | Laraul: that's what amazon S3 prices distribution add. Some back-of-the-envelope calculations for what I can get at my datacenter come to similar values. |
| 14:17.10 | Laraul | What does this have to do with anything? |
| 14:17.15 | zeal | i can't comment, i've had free hosting since i was in school :P |
| 14:17.21 | mxs | zeal: Even if I assume that this cost is in ADDITION to the current cost, it is not infeasible. |
| 14:17.24 | zeal | yay for having a friend who runs his own hosting.. |
| 14:17.25 | mxs | hehe :) |
| 14:17.38 | mxs | so you are the leech on my systems ! :-P |
| 14:17.51 | zeal | hm? |
| 14:17.58 | mxs | Laraul: zeal is trying to make the point that for Blizzard to offer full HTTP distribution of its patches would be cost-prohibitive |
| 14:18.13 | mxs | while I try to argue the point that it is not only not infeasible, but also a good idea for customer satisfaction |
| 14:18.32 | Laraul | You mean increase costs?' |
| 14:18.36 | Laraul | No it wouldn't |
| 14:18.45 | mxs | (subpoints I argue are that the BitTorrent client could be vastly improved while zeal claims it has been improved, though I have not seen any changes :) |
| 14:18.54 | Zeal | well i'm sure they considered this mxs, it was discussed back when they first went with a bittorrent distribution. |
| 14:19.12 | Laraul | BitTorrent is a protical not so much a client |
| 14:19.20 | Zeal | i knwo that |
| 14:19.25 | Zeal | *know |
| 14:19.27 | mxs | Zeal: sure it was discussed, but as any engineer will tell you, the lifecycle of a product does not end in the design phase |
| 14:19.40 | Zeal | its also one that incurrs no bandwidth or hosting costs. |
| 14:19.48 | Laraul | Torrents are useless unless they're seeders with the full file |
| 14:19.48 | mxs | you are wrong in that regard |
| 14:19.58 | mxs | it incurrs quite some hosting costs for seeding and the tracker |
| 14:19.59 | Zeal | for the one seed |
| 14:20.01 | Zeal | that is it |
| 14:20.03 | mxs | no |
| 14:20.06 | mxs | many, many seeds |
| 14:20.13 | mxs | or we would be hearing MASSIVE complaints |
| 14:20.15 | Zeal | i've only ever seen one? |
| 14:20.18 | mxs | hehe |
| 14:20.23 | mxs | you ahve not looked at the webseeds |
| 14:20.28 | Laraul | They host multiple seeds per download |
| 14:20.36 | mxs | and the tracker usually does not give out more than one blizzard seed at a time |
| 14:20.47 | mxs | Zeal: if yyou are interested, pick any recent downloader |
| 14:20.52 | mxs | look at teh end for the bittorrent file |
| 14:20.55 | Laraul | Umm... I've seen it give me a nunch |
| 14:20.57 | mxs | look at the direct download urls |
| 14:21.00 | Laraul | er a bunch |
| 14:21.01 | mxs | append a /0 to that url |
| 14:21.02 | mxs | ;) |
| 14:21.09 | Laraul | like six blizzard servers seeding |
| 14:21.23 | mxs | there are massive costs even in the current distribution method |
| 14:21.37 | mxs | BitTorrent does shift a lot of the bw burden to the clients |
| 14:21.40 | mxs | but not nearly all of it |
| 14:21.41 | Zeal | well i still do not beleive it to be anywhere near comparable |
| 14:21.43 | Laraul | Bandwidth isn't cheep |
| 14:21.56 | mxs | (and I can speak with authority on that point, having run 100k-peers BitTorrent trackers :) |
| 14:22.06 | mxs | I don'T say it's comparable |
| 14:22.15 | mxs | what I am saying, and I can back this up, is that 1GB of patch transfer cost $0.2 |
| 14:22.26 | mxs | most patches are a lot less than 1GB |
| 14:22.41 | Zeal | that can't seriously be based on the patch size? |
| 14:22.43 | mxs | I assume 200mb per month in patches, which is a LOT compared to what historically has happened |
| 14:22.49 | Zeal | the transfer of each patch surely |
| 14:23.04 | mxs | It is based on the amount of data transferred |
| 14:23.15 | Zeal | well there we go |
| 14:23.17 | mxs | i.e. if you need to grab a 5MB patch, you pay 5/1000*0.2 $ |
| 14:23.22 | Laraul | remember... there are two clients... a mac and pc version |
| 14:23.27 | mxs | doesn't matter |
| 14:23.29 | Laraul | so two patches |
| 14:23.33 | mxs | each client only gets one patch |
| 14:23.43 | mxs | or rather, each CUSTOMER only gets one patch |
| 14:23.44 | mxs | or maybe 2 |
| 14:23.45 | mxs | or 3 |
| 14:23.56 | mxs | but that's why I assume 200MB per month in actual patch transfer |
| 14:23.58 | Zeal | either way, i don't think it's a cost they want to inccur |
| 14:24.06 | Laraul | I honestly don't care for the patching meathod |
| 14:24.08 | Zeal | and i wouldn't if i was them either |
| 14:24.09 | Laraul | It's annoying |
| 14:24.12 | mxs | and I question why that is the case. The cost is abysmally small. |
| 14:24.19 | mxs | 4 cents a month per customer. |
| 14:24.20 | Zeal | i don't think it is |
| 14:24.24 | Laraul | You download a patch... install it... start the game... download another patch... repeat |
| 14:24.26 | Laraul | sheesh |
| 14:24.42 | mxs | Zeal: I think it is annoying when it does not work :) |
| 14:24.50 | Zeal | i've never had to do that more than twice Laraul, and that was with tbc launch |
| 14:24.57 | mxs | heck, you could use both methods simultaneously |
| 14:25.07 | Laraul | When was the last time you did a fresh install? |
| 14:25.11 | Zeal | that's merely speaking of when they do and don't use cummulative patches |
| 14:25.16 | Zeal | beta, lol |
| 14:25.37 | mxs | oh, if you want to install the original wow right now, you install wow, the 1.0 to 1.12 patch, the 1.12 to 2.0.1 patch, the 2.0.1 to 2.0.3 patch, the 2.0.3 to 2.0.7 patch, and the 2.0.7 to 2.0.8 one |
| 14:25.41 | Zeal | someone did here back on release, beleive it took 5 patches |
| 14:25.48 | Zeal | which is perfectly acceptable imo |
| 14:25.55 | Laraul | I think there were more than that |
| 14:26.00 | mxs | could be streamlined |
| 14:26.03 | Laraul | I removed the patches |
| 14:26.07 | mxs | Laraul: no, that's what you need ;) |
| 14:26.11 | Zeal | also should note uninstalling wow does not usually remove the patches |
| 14:26.26 | mxs | Zeal: I won't carry around gigabytes of patchfiles though :> |
| 14:26.26 | Laraul | Well that is not what they send you' |
| 14:26.44 | Zeal | and evne if it did, you'd think someone smart enough to back them up.. >_> |
| 14:26.44 | mxs | well not unless it's on my site that is :) |
| 14:27.06 | Laraul | If I do a fresh install... I just wanna download ONE patch |
| 14:27.10 | mxs | in any case, let me repeat it. It costs $0.04 per customer to have fast, readily available HTTP downloads of any patch within minutes of its release.# |
| 14:27.19 | mxs | (and that's a cost per customer that actually does download) |
| 14:27.38 | Zeal | it's possible Laraul, but i'd don't se the issue with a few extra smaller ones |
| 14:27.44 | mxs | Laraul: would not be that hard to do, but it would probably take them a bit to test that every time) |
| 14:28.03 | Laraul | well i don't care |
| 14:28.07 | mxs | Zeal: the point would be customer satisfaction. I'm a happy camper if there is less hassle than I expect. |
| 14:28.10 | mxs | :) |
| 14:28.13 | Zeal | and that's also profit lost mxs and money taken away from other areas of support |
| 14:28.28 | mxs | Zeal: and money fueled into customer satisfaction. |
| 14:28.36 | Zeal | i wouldn't suggest it as possible until you know what their accounts are like. |
| 14:28.37 | *** join/#wowwiki Wala (n=mudderwa@201.67.231.249) |
| 14:28.39 | mxs | which is worth a lot of money. |
| 14:28.46 | Wala | good morning |
| 14:28.48 | Wala | evening |
| 14:28.51 | Zeal | lo Wala |
| 14:28.51 | Wala | afternoon |
| 14:28.54 | Wala | whatever :P :D |
| 14:29.00 | mxs | I would suggest it as possible and feasible, NO MATTER waht their accounts are like. |
| 14:29.12 | mxs | I know I pay my $12-$15 bucks a month. |
| 14:29.31 | mxs | I know their profit margin is larger than $0.04 |
| 14:29.49 | mxs | ergo, I make the claim that it is feasible and they just don't want to do it. |
| 14:30.04 | Zeal | it's up to them if the customer satisfaction is worth the cost mxs. they clearly don't think so. |
| 14:30.11 | mxs | which is their decision, being a corporation. I can make the point that it's not avalid one :) |
| 14:30.16 | mxs | yupp |
| 14:30.29 | mxs | a thread that has come up multiple times in the past |
| 14:30.40 | mxs | heck, anybody remember them promising we'd eventually be able to play cross-region ? |
| 14:30.46 | mxs | it was in a press release by Blizzard. |
| 14:30.47 | Zeal | nope |
| 14:30.48 | Zeal | lol |
| 14:30.53 | Wala | How do I write Stealth in past? |
| 14:30.56 | Zeal | never heard it. |
| 14:30.56 | Laraul | I have file version 1, 10, 2, 5302 installed on other PC |
| 14:30.58 | Wala | like, he was stealthed |
| 14:31.03 | mxs | they promised that soon after the EU launch US customers would be able to play on EU servers as well. |
| 14:31.05 | Wala | Stealthed <- is this correct? |
| 14:31.08 | Zeal | you just said it :P |
| 14:31.09 | Zeal | lol |
| 14:31.36 | Zeal | well mxs, i don't recall ever seeing such a thing |
| 14:31.38 | mxs | they subsequently became silent on that issue and eventually just deleted topics mentioning it. |
| 14:31.42 | mxs | Great customer service, that :) |
| 14:31.54 | mxs | yeah, it's funny how easily history is rewritten, ain't it ? |
| 14:32.01 | mxs | The press release is no longer on their site, either |
| 14:32.03 | Laraul | World of Warcraft Client Patch 1.10.2 |
| 14:32.07 | Zeal | unless it was on the wow site front page, i probably never saw it. |
| 14:32.22 | Zeal | eu or us, i check both |
| 14:32.29 | Laraul | Now how many patches will it take to upgrade to the latest version? |
| 14:32.31 | Zeal | i don't check the forums at all really. |
| 14:32.36 | Laraul | From 1.10.2? |
| 14:32.53 | mxs | Zeal: it was, actually :) |
| 14:32.58 | mxs | Zeal: right around game release time |
| 14:33.00 | Zeal | getting banned for a week after my first 2 days of posting.. ¬_¬ |
| 14:33.08 | Zeal | eu release? |
| 14:33.14 | Zeal | as i sure as hell wouldn't have missed that |
| 14:33.27 | mxs | Laraul: oh, that would be 5 |
| 14:33.31 | mxs | same as from 1.0.0 |
| 14:33.37 | mxs | Zeal: us reelease |
| 14:33.40 | mxs | err release |
| 14:33.49 | Laraul | Well it's a PAIN |
| 14:34.00 | Zeal | what's the first patch Laraul? |
| 14:34.04 | Zeal | from 1.12 |
| 14:34.23 | Zeal | i may have missed that then mxs |
| 14:34.25 | Laraul | I dunno you want me to run it? |
| 14:34.33 | Zeal | either way, it's not a feature i cared for |
| 14:34.54 | Zeal | i wouldn't want to play on american servers, and i'd imagine americans feel the same. |
| 14:35.16 | Zeal | oh, i thought you were doing it or something :s |
| 14:35.24 | Laraul | k downloading patch 1... 1.12.0 |
| 14:35.25 | *** join/#wowwiki Tuqui-tuqui (n=Tuqui-tu@smtp.badertv.com) |
| 14:35.31 | Laraul | 500 megs |
| 14:35.47 | Zeal | i was assuming 2.0, then 2.0.3 or possibly straight to 2.0.6 |
| 14:35.57 | Zeal | *i would asume |
| 14:36.05 | Laraul | well I guess we'll find out |
| 14:36.16 | Laraul | [07:35:25] <--- Start Time |
| 14:36.20 | Zeal | 2.0.8 would definitely not be cummulative. |
| 14:36.33 | Zeal | 2.0.7, i doubt either. |
| 14:36.52 | Zeal | some consistancy would be nice tbh.. |
| 14:37.02 | mxs | Zeal: I started playing at US release and I am from EU :) |
| 14:37.05 | Laraul | huh? |
| 14:37.23 | Laraul | I started with the U.S. release too... so what? |
| 14:37.26 | mxs | Laraul: you go to 1.12 then 2.0.1 then 2.0.3 then 2.0.7 then 2.0.8 |
| 14:37.37 | Laraul | We'll see.... |
| 14:37.46 | Zeal | started from eu open beta. |
| 14:37.47 | Laraul | 42% downloaded |
| 14:37.49 | mxs | 2.0.7 is cumulative from 2.0.3 |
| 14:38.04 | mxs | Laraul: well, I am from the EU. |
| 14:38.12 | mxs | Laraul: so friends and family play on EU servers. |
| 14:38.25 | mxs | I'm not about to give up my druid though. |
| 14:38.35 | Laraul | Well... I play FFXI... all the servers are in Japan ^^ |
| 14:38.42 | mxs | not with all those nifty green exalted bars :) |
| 14:39.28 | Laraul | FFXI certainly deals with latency much better |
| 14:39.37 | Zeal | i've quite wow a number of times, restarted my main. doesn't bother me |
| 14:39.41 | Zeal | *quit |
| 14:40.05 | Laraul | lol I've "quit" but never deleted any characters or stopped my account |
| 14:40.57 | Zeal | i onyl actually stopped my account the last time |
| 14:41.08 | Laraul | patch downloaded and installng |
| 14:41.09 | Zeal | and reset my main char |
| 14:41.12 | Zeal | but deleted plenty. |
| 14:41.22 | Laraul | why did you delete? |
| 14:41.25 | Laraul | That was dumb |
| 14:41.41 | Zeal | didn't play them, didn't liek the server, friends moved on. |
| 14:42.03 | Zeal | my main, it was silly yeah, but meh. |
| 14:42.19 | Laraul | silly? stupid is more like it |
| 14:42.24 | Zeal | i onyl came back for tbc as it addressed some issues i have with wow. |
| 14:42.32 | Zeal | no.. not stupid |
| 14:42.34 | *** join/#wowwiki Tepetkhet (n=Tepetkhe@office70.corp.sspan.net) |
| 14:42.43 | Zeal | i didn't want to return |
| 14:42.54 | Laraul | My "main" has been around since I started on 12/17/04 |
| 14:43.02 | Laraul | It's level 26 now |
| 14:43.09 | Zeal | as my firends were going elsewhere, i quit having a leadership role in my guild, there was nothing keeping me playing anymore. |
| 14:43.13 | Laraul | I've played for a total of six days |
| 14:43.24 | Laraul | I'll be rested for ever |
| 14:43.40 | Zeal | hardly |
| 14:43.43 | Laraul | Damn installing the patch is pokey |
| 14:43.43 | Tepetkhet | You don't keep building up rested. |
| 14:43.48 | Zeal | unless you only play in short bursts |
| 14:43.53 | Tepetkhet | It reaches a certain spot and stops. |
| 14:44.00 | Laraul | Really? You sure? |
| 14:44.02 | Zeal | 2.5 levels if i remember |
| 14:44.03 | Tepetkhet | Yes. |
| 14:44.09 | Tepetkhet | Quite sure. |
| 14:44.13 | Laraul | I mean I've been rested since like level ten |
| 14:44.18 | Tepetkhet | Because all those people who were level 60 when the xpac came out? |
| 14:44.23 | Tepetkhet | They'd been rested for months. |
| 14:44.25 | Zeal | lol |
| 14:44.27 | Tepetkhet | Maybe a year or more. |
| 14:44.42 | Tepetkhet | And of course, they ran out of rested experience after a couple levels. |
| 14:44.47 | Laraul | I did come back though... every few months |
| 14:45.03 | Zeal | i've not played for 6 months, and it onyl lasted a few levels. |
| 14:45.26 | Tepetkhet | There's a detailed description of rested bonus on Blizzard's site. |
| 14:45.42 | Laraul | Well I read it long time ago |
| 14:45.46 | Laraul | It may have changed |
| 14:46.17 | Laraul | It's designed to let players who don't have as much time to play to advance faster |
| 14:46.22 | Tepetkhet | Yes. |
| 14:46.26 | Tepetkhet | But it will run our. |
| 14:46.27 | Tepetkhet | er, out |
| 14:46.34 | Laraul | Yeah but it hasn't yet |
| 14:46.36 | Tepetkhet | It's supposed to help you "catch up" to your friends. |
| 14:46.44 | Zeal | aye |
| 14:46.48 | Tepetkhet | If you play enough at a time to get a couple levels, you'll run out. |
| 14:46.56 | Laraul | Well my "friends" all hit 60 like two years ago |
| 14:46.59 | Tepetkhet | I ran out on my priest alt finally. |
| 14:47.00 | Zeal | i've probably spent most of my time playing with rest xp :P |
| 14:47.21 | Zeal | it took me a little under 2 years to get to 60 :P |
| 14:47.34 | Zeal | and then i quite about 2 months after.. lol |
| 14:47.39 | Laraul | Took me 2 years to get a job to 75 in FFXI |
| 14:47.40 | Zeal | *quite, ffs |
| 14:47.48 | *** join/#wowwiki cladhaire (n=jnwhiteh@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Featured/Dongle/cladhaire) |
| 14:48.14 | mxs | it's gonna take me years to get all the lw recipes again |
| 14:48.20 | mxs | since they changed the specialization |
| 14:48.28 | Laraul | lw recipies? |
| 14:48.29 | mxs | used to be a 100% tribal leatherworker |
| 14:48.34 | Laraul | leatherworking |
| 14:48.55 | cladhaire | what did they change about it? |
| 14:49.08 | Laraul | i dunno... i hate tradeskills |
| 14:49.11 | mxs | now I'm missing shifting cloak (possible to get solo), living breastplate (gdit that's a farmjob worthy of gods), and red dragonscale breastplate (BoP off of Drakkisath. Anybody wanna run UBRS ?) |
| 14:49.20 | mxs | they removed specialization |
| 14:49.30 | mxs | all the specialized recipes are now ffa for all leatherworkers |
| 14:49.30 | cladhaire | removed it how? |
| 14:49.34 | cladhaire | i'm a tribal lw |
| 14:49.37 | cladhaire | so i'm curious =) |
| 14:49.38 | mxs | opened up around 30-40 old-world recipes |
| 14:49.52 | mxs | well ... remember all those recipes you could not learn ? |
| 14:49.54 | Zeal | i've still not looked into what they've actually done.. |
| 14:50.01 | mxs | like molten belt or shifting cloak ? |
| 14:50.01 | mxs | now you can |
| 14:50.18 | Laraul | how to you earn curency btw? |
| 14:50.20 | mxs | the only thing specialization is good for is some vendor-learned recipes that make BoP stuff |
| 14:50.49 | mxs | I've got almost all of those missing recipes now, but Red Dragonscale BP is going to be a headache |
| 14:50.59 | Tepetkhet | There's still specializations. |
| 14:51.00 | mxs | even got around 70% of the new LW patterns in TBC :) |
| 14:51.03 | *** join/#wowwiki Nirocelin (n=chatzill@0x50a5a88f.esnxx3.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk) |
| 14:51.07 | mxs | Tepetkhet: as I just said |
| 14:51.10 | Tepetkhet | but now it's more of a BoP-created item specialization. |
| 14:51.14 | Tepetkhet | Er, yeah. |
| 14:51.15 | mxs | worthless specializations for BoP items |
| 14:51.19 | Laraul | Really I dunno how to earn cash in that game |
| 14:51.26 | mxs | Laraul: in wow ? |
| 14:51.29 | Zeal | oh.. so the specialized trained ones are still limited? just drops aren't? |
| 14:51.30 | Laraul | yeah |
| 14:51.47 | mxs | Laraul: play the AH game, quest at level 70, sell farmed mats, etc. |
| 14:51.52 | Wala | professions are broken in TBC |
| 14:51.57 | mxs | Zeal: correct |
| 14:52.03 | Zeal | cool :) |
| 14:52.09 | mxs | Wala: somewhat. Primal Nether, anybody ? |
| 14:52.09 | Tepetkhet | How so, Wala? |
| 14:52.11 | Laraul | Er how about making money @ level 26? |
| 14:52.19 | Zeal | xl goblin jumper cables here i come.. |
| 14:52.21 | mxs | Laraul: play the AH game |
| 14:52.25 | mxs | buy cheap, sell high |
| 14:52.31 | Wala | Come on |
| 14:52.33 | Tepetkhet | Laraul: Get the biggest bags you can. |
| 14:52.46 | Tepetkhet | vendor everything that doesn't AH. |
| 14:52.48 | Laraul | You mean buy shit from NPCs and inflate their prices on the AH? |
| 14:52.49 | Wala | Tell me a single lvl 70 BOE that is worth the time of farming |
| 14:52.53 | mxs | no |
| 14:52.57 | mxs | buy crap off the AH, resell it on the AH |
| 14:52.59 | Wala | to sell trough AH |
| 14:53.02 | mxs | optionally disenchant in between |
| 14:53.12 | Wala | I'll tell the only one I know : http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?source=live;witem=24304 |
| 14:53.16 | mxs | Wala: primal water is easy :P |
| 14:53.17 | Wala | Black Belt of Knowledgement |
| 14:53.35 | Wala | primal water is a mat, not a crafted item |
| 14:53.42 | mxs | ah, you were talking items |
| 14:53.46 | Wala | I'm talking of crafted items |
| 14:53.47 | Laraul | How does bidding on the AH work? |
| 14:53.47 | mxs | well cobra scale gloves are nice. |
| 14:53.52 | Laraul | I've never done it |
| 14:53.53 | Tepetkhet | Wala: Hm. I know a warlock who farmed and had crafted the imbued netherweave stuff for his level 70. |
| 14:53.55 | mxs | but I don't like Primal Nether. At all. |
| 14:53.56 | Tepetkhet | Does that count? |
| 14:53.59 | Laraul | I'm been to scared too |
| 14:54.08 | Wala | Imbued netherweave < all 70 BOP in 5-man |
| 14:54.15 | Zeal | i generally, take vendor as bo, and divide by two for sb unless they are going for significantly more, in which case i lower below them, but still high. if i see cheap and know i can sell it, i'll but cheap. |
| 14:54.30 | Wala | the only item I know that isn't 'crap' at 70, compared to all 5-man items is that belt |
| 14:54.32 | Tepetkhet | So you go naked into the 5-mans? |
| 14:54.44 | mxs | Wala: not exactly true |
| 14:54.57 | Wala | all DPS gear for non-cloth requires either blacksmith, or lw, or a specialization of lw |
| 14:55.07 | mxs | Wala: cobrascale gloves are beaten by ... 3 other gloves in the game. tier 4 and 5 being two of those. |
| 14:55.11 | Laraul | you can only have two crafts |
| 14:55.12 | Wala | no, I got with greens tepetkhet |
| 14:55.19 | Zeal | never drop below vendor + deposit, regardless of what's going on the ah house. will attempt, and sell if failed, still make about a 50% profit |
| 14:55.31 | Wala | it's perfectly possible to do most of 70 '5-mans' with lvl 68 greens |
| 14:55.40 | mxs | not the heroic ones :P |
| 14:55.42 | Wala | wich are cheaper than any crafted item found on AH |
| 14:55.44 | mxs | well most of them anyway |
| 14:55.56 | Wala | yes, to do the heroic ones you get loot from the normal ones... |
| 14:55.57 | mxs | but professions never gave you highest-end gear anyway |
| 14:56.04 | mxs | the problem is that now, primal nether is wanted by EVERYBODY |
| 14:56.05 | Wala | wich is faster and cheaper than getting crafted items |
| 14:56.07 | mxs | and BoP |
| 14:56.08 | Wala | no |
| 14:56.10 | Wala | I don't |
| 14:56.17 | Wala | I don't need primal nether |
| 14:56.20 | Wala | I'm an alchemyst |
| 14:56.34 | mxs | grats ! |
| 14:56.37 | Laraul | is gear more for to look "pimp" or does it actually help |
| 14:56.38 | Wala | only 'decent' profession on the expansion, btw |
| 14:57.02 | Wala | well, Laraul, on TBC, the itemization was changed so much |
| 14:57.23 | Wala | that the difference between a lvl 70 green, and a blue/epic, is really small |
| 14:57.35 | mxs | or reverse |
| 14:57.44 | mxs | compare some Karazhan loot to non-heroic 5-mans |
| 14:57.51 | mxs | the non-heroic 5-mans often win, for the same slot |
| 14:57.54 | Tepetkhet | Alchemist. |
| 14:58.07 | Wala | Alchemist.! |
| 14:58.17 | mxs | Leatherworker. |
| 14:58.23 | Laraul | what is this 5-man stuff? |
| 14:58.24 | mxs | Annoyed at drums not being usable in feral forms. |
| 14:58.37 | Wala | typo noted and will be remembered |
| 14:58.49 | Laraul | you mean 5 person pt? |
| 14:58.54 | Zeal | anyone play a sham, got a question |
| 14:58.57 | mxs | Wala: now on to magick, eh ? |
| 14:59.18 | Wala | Laraul |
| 14:59.18 | mxs | Laraul: 5-man instances |
| 14:59.32 | mxs | and if you want it to be 5-women instance, be my guest. Dress scarcely. |
| 14:59.32 | Laraul | k 5-man pt |
| 14:59.59 | Zeal | er.. huh? O_o |
| 15:00.11 | Zeal | though 5-man was fairly obvious, heh. |
| 15:00.13 | mxs | I'm waiting for the feminists to come out and complain about the term 5-man |
| 15:00.25 | Zeal | yeah, that's what i thought Laraul was complaing about :s |
| 15:00.27 | Wala | 5-man is Hellfire Ramparts, Blood Furnace, The Slave Pens, The Underbog, Mana Tombs, Auchenai Crypts,Sethekk Halls, Escape from Durnholde Keep, The Shattered Halls, The Steamvault, Shadow Labyrinth, The Mechanar, The Botanica, The Arcatraz, Opening the Dark Portal |
| 15:00.48 | Wala | Opening of the Black portal is also know as Black Morass |
| 15:00.51 | mxs | also, stratholme, lbrs, dire maul, deadmines, etc |
| 15:00.53 | Wala | did I forget any? |
| 15:01.02 | Zeal | lol |
| 15:01.02 | Wala | BC instances,please ^^ |
| 15:01.04 | Laraul | are pts less than 5 common? |
| 15:01.05 | mxs | rfk, rfd, etc. |
| 15:01.13 | Zeal | outside instances, yes |
| 15:01.15 | mxs | Laraul: expand pt. |
| 15:01.22 | Zeal | pt = party i think |
| 15:01.29 | mxs | lazy bastard :) |
| 15:01.35 | Laraul | yeah pt = party |
| 15:01.38 | Laraul | duh |
| 15:01.38 | mxs | sure they are. But not in instances. |
| 15:01.54 | Zeal | but mroe than 5-man is common |
| 15:01.57 | Wala | well |
| 15:01.59 | Wala | take this way |
| 15:02.02 | Zeal | so its still valid to use 5-man |
| 15:02.09 | mxs | don't d'uh me or I'll start talking TCP-IP in flags like ACK, NAK, RST, and smack-dab christmas trees. |
| 15:02.15 | Wala | instances are dungeons where you go with a party, pew pew monster and get loot ^^ |
| 15:03.03 | mxs | abbrvs suck. :) |
| 15:03.18 | Wala | I wished that there where more usefull rewards to alchemy with reputation >.< |
| 15:03.50 | Wala | Flasks? come on, I already had all of the months before TBC, transmute? why use a cooldown in something that is 'farmable' in 15 minutes >.< |
| 15:04.02 | Wala | the only 'good' ones are the resistance potions, wich are few, btw |
| 15:04.17 | Wala | and the gems/alchemist stone |
| 15:04.24 | mxs | I grew fond of elixir of mastery |
| 15:04.25 | Laraul | in FFXI... a pt with less than six is not considered a pt |
| 15:04.50 | mxs | as for factions ... |
| 15:05.01 | mxs | I am sporeggar exalted. I keep hoping against hope that they itemize that |
| 15:05.12 | mxs | same as shen'dralar, really :> |
| 15:05.22 | Wala | I was farming rep with sporeggar |
| 15:05.33 | Wala | but, come on, just a single potion as rep reward? |
| 15:05.35 | Wala | >.< |
| 15:05.47 | mxs | 999/1000 with Shen'dralar. No rewards whatsoever. |
| 15:05.50 | Wala | a 'usefull', if you call that |
| 15:05.52 | mxs | not even new gossip text. |
| 15:06.09 | mxs | also 999/1000 with Wildhammer clan. |
| 15:06.15 | mxs | Then they remove it from the rep tab ! |
| 15:06.36 | mxs | bloody bastages |
| 15:06.46 | Wala | 999/1000 with shen'dralar... |
| 15:06.53 | Zeal | well this isn't FXII, a party is group of 2-10 players. a group beyond that is a raid. |
| 15:07.07 | Wala | I reached honored cause of my twinks, but exalted? lol |
| 15:09.15 | mxs | hehe :) |
| 15:09.26 | mxs | also about to hit exalted with 3 of the 4 goblin cities |
| 15:09.29 | mxs | and revered with booty bay |
| 15:09.40 | mxs | which would put both booty bay and bloodsail buccaneers at revered |
| 15:10.05 | Laraul | wait how can a pt consist of more than fime members? |
| 15:10.20 | Laraul | I thought that the limit was 5 per party |
| 15:10.20 | Zeal | btw.. was there ever really a rep increase? cos tbh it sounded like it was coming from only new content, and the old stuff is exactly the same. |
| 15:10.26 | mxs | Laraul: well a point is usually only a mental construct of a single entity |
| 15:10.30 | mxs | so your point is valid. |
| 15:10.45 | mxs | Zeal: there was. |
| 15:10.56 | Zeal | 10 is the limit Laraul |
| 15:10.58 | mxs | Wildhammer was increased 10 fold before they yanked the entire faction in the patch after |
| 15:11.07 | mxs | ravenholdt and wintersaber 50% more |
| 15:11.11 | Zeal | wait wtf.. |
| 15:11.16 | Zeal | i'm talking non-sense |
| 15:11.17 | Zeal | sorry |
| 15:11.27 | Zeal | or am i? :s |
| 15:11.28 | mxs | pre-TBC, the starting quests for all the cities gave LOTS of rep |
| 15:11.31 | mxs | but they nerfed that |
| 15:11.31 | Zeal | i'm confused now.. |
| 15:11.38 | mxs | (i.e. pre-2.0.3) |
| 15:11.47 | mxs | (but post 1.12.3 :) |
| 15:12.02 | mxs | runecloth 50% increase |
| 15:12.05 | Laraul | There's enough room for 9 ppl's info windows? |
| 15:12.12 | mxs | no changes for the pvp factions |
| 15:12.16 | Zeal | no Laraul |
| 15:12.20 | Zeal | there isn't |
| 15:12.48 | Tepetkhet | I'm a woman and have no problem with running 5-mans. |
| 15:12.51 | Wala | party are 5-man at maximum |
| 15:12.59 | mxs | there probably have been some other changes to factions I was already exalted in |
| 15:13.11 | Wala | more than 5 is a raid |
| 15:13.15 | Laraul | wala that is what i thought |
| 15:13.17 | mxs | Tepetkhet: that can be so misunderstood. You mean you are supervising ? |
| 15:13.46 | Wala | >.< |
| 15:13.59 | mxs | <-- has this image in his head of Tepetkhet sitting on a coach with a whip, running the 5 men towing the carriage |
| 15:14.15 | Laraul | Raids are parties of 6-40 people divided into up to 8 groups of up to 5 players. These are primarily used for large-scale PvP combat, or for raid-specific instances and zones. If you're the party leader, you can convert your group into a raid group by accessing your 'Social' Panel, selecting 'Raid' and choosing 'Convert Group to Raid'. From then on, anyone you invite will join your raid group. |
| 15:14.42 | Zeal | yeah, didn't need the quote, lol |
| 15:14.52 | Zeal | i was just talking non-sense as i said ;) |
| 15:15.08 | Zeal | but point still stood. |
| 15:15.22 | Zeal | i should have used group original though. |
| 15:16.23 | mxs | bah, f'n philson is bumping his mirror again |
| 15:17.03 | Wala | 1111! |
| 15:18.46 | Wala | ....? |
| 15:19.03 | Tepetkhet | heh |
| 15:19.08 | Tepetkhet | mxs: Sure. |
| 15:19.21 | Tepetkhet | I really wish they had whips as a weapon type for players. |
| 15:19.37 | Tepetkhet | And yes, I supervise. |
| 15:19.41 | Tepetkhet | I don't really lead, though. |
| 15:19.58 | Tepetkhet | I mean, I don't mark targets and say when to pull. |
| 15:21.09 | mxs | so you just enjoy cracking the whip. I get it. :P |
| 15:21.38 | Wala | there should be lumberjacking, luthier and bowier professions.. |
| 15:22.23 | Zeal | fletcher |
| 15:22.35 | mxs | hairstylist |
| 15:22.39 | Zeal | lol |
| 15:22.47 | Zeal | lifestyle consultant |
| 15:22.47 | mxs | tattoo artist |
| 15:22.59 | mxs | loot investment consultant |
| 15:23.07 | Zeal | lawyers.. |
| 15:23.11 | Wala | luthier would make 'consumables' |
| 15:23.35 | Wala | musical instruments that had 'charges' for casting spells, like charming, battle shouts, party buffs, enemy debuffs, etc |
| 15:23.48 | mxs | lawyers with specializations. Pillaging, R**ing, Genocide, World Domination, etc. |
| 15:24.21 | mxs | (note that that could very well say Riding, you insensitive clods :) |
| 15:24.22 | Wala | >.< |
| 15:25.05 | mxs | Undertakers would also be needed |
| 15:26.57 | Laraul | These blizzard updaters take FOREVER |
| 15:27.03 | Laraul | 35% |
| 15:27.14 | mxs | no, I'm pretty sure they reach 100% at some point. |
| 15:27.23 | Laraul | Now 36% |
| 15:27.36 | Laraul | Now 38% wow |
| 15:27.54 | mxs | wow, we get a live feed of Laraul's patching process ! Must be a slow news day. |
| 15:27.59 | Laraul | Wow it's going faster now |
| 15:29.05 | sancus | the download or the application process? |
| 15:29.57 | Tepetkhet | HAHAHA |
| 15:30.04 | Laraul | [07:35:25] <--- This is when I started... and it is now [08:30:03] |
| 15:30.12 | Tepetkhet | Through a series of highly sophisticated and complex algorithms, this system has determined that you are not presently authorized to use this system function. It could be that you simply mistyped a password, or, it could be that you are some sort of interplanetary alien-being that has no hands and, thus, cannot type. |
| 15:30.15 | *** join/#wowwiki Hobinheim|play (n=Hobinhei@c-69-142-120-32.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) |
| 15:30.33 | Tepetkhet | If I were a gambler, I would bet that a cat (an orange tabby named Sierra or Harley) somehow jumped onto your keyboard and forgot some of the more important pointers from those typing lessons you paid for. |
| 15:30.49 | Tepetkhet | There's more. |
| 15:30.56 | Tepetkhet | But I won't keep going. |
| 15:30.58 | Hobinheim|play | them's fightin' words |
| 15:31.09 | Laraul | When I did this originally, btw... I had to update both the Mac and windows version |
| 15:31.29 | Tepetkhet | This was the Unauthorized page that came up for a device in our network. |
| 15:32.37 | Laraul | It's not the time so much as the fact I have to wait around for it too finish just so I can download another patch |
| 15:32.58 | Laraul | There is one good thing though |
| 15:33.29 | mxs | Laraul: that being you can ... entertain ... us with patch progress ? |
| 15:33.36 | Laraul | If you wanna install the game on another computer... you can just copy your existing folder |
| 15:33.55 | *** part/#wowwiki hobinheim|work (n=Hobinhei@c-69-142-120-32.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) |
| 15:34.10 | *** join/#wowwiki hobinheim|work (n=Hobinhei@c-69-142-120-32.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) |
| 15:34.26 | *** join/#wowwiki hobinheim|work (n=Hobinhei@c-69-142-120-32.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) |
| 15:34.27 | Laraul | No need to install from the CD. No need for any installation at all |
| 15:34.32 | Zeal | er.. wtf hobinheim|work |
| 15:34.40 | hobinheim|work | ??? |
| 15:34.53 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Hobinheim] by ChanServ |
| 15:34.59 | Hobinheim | what? |
| 15:35.04 | Zeal | spammed parts and joins |
| 15:35.17 | Laraul | Er no not really |
| 15:35.19 | Zeal | btw.. what's the faction for draenei actually called? |
| 15:35.26 | Zeal | yes, really. |
| 15:35.35 | *** part/#wowwiki hobinheim|work (n=Hobinhei@c-69-142-120-32.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) |
| 15:35.40 | Zeal | lol |
| 15:35.45 | Laraul | Looks like he accidently rejoined then quit |
| 15:36.30 | Zeal | joined, renamed, left, joined, quit/disconnected, joined, renamed, renamed, parted. |
| 15:36.50 | Zeal | anyways.. back to my question |
| 15:37.03 | Zeal | gotta love how this info isn't on the wiki.. sigh |
| 15:37.16 | Laraul | downloading another patch... 160 megs |
| 15:43.51 | Laraul | k this is a perfect example why bundles are better than single stream binarys |
| 15:44.06 | Zeal | no, because you'd still be downloading one huge one |
| 15:44.40 | Zeal | the fact that blizzard don't do proper cummulative patches is a diff matter |
| 15:45.02 | Laraul | Er no. Everything is contained in the MPQ files. |
| 15:45.02 | Zeal | and the way in which mpq's exist prohibit a stream of seperate files |
| 15:45.25 | Laraul | When they are patched, the entire file has to be written again |
| 15:45.30 | Zeal | yes |
| 15:45.54 | Laraul | Well a bundle you would not need to rebuild the entire binary |
| 15:46.07 | Laraul | just replace the files with in the bundle |
| 15:46.16 | Zeal | using the word binary completely throws me off, so i wouldn't bother. |
| 15:47.39 | Laraul | Binaries usuaully mean data compilied into a single file |
| 15:47.57 | Laraul | You have a hex editor? |
| 15:48.15 | Zeal | yeah, it's called keyboard.. >_> |
| 15:48.21 | Zeal | in the term you mean, no. |
| 15:48.28 | Zeal | i am not programmer |
| 15:48.32 | Zeal | *not a |
| 15:48.52 | Laraul | w/e just open up common.MPQ with a text editor |
| 15:49.21 | Zeal | woah.. still had dbc tools open.. woops |
| 15:50.26 | sancus | when you patch |
| 15:50.32 | sancus | you have to rebuild the entire fucking mpq |
| 15:50.37 | sancus | that's why a 2 meg patch takes forever |
| 15:50.44 | sancus | whereas it would take about 0.5 seconds with a bundle, maybe less! |
| 15:51.11 | sancus | blizzard's patching strategy just sucks in general though |
| 15:51.34 | Zeal | fun.. can't open it |
| 15:51.36 | Zeal | too big |
| 15:51.49 | Zeal | anyways.. sancus, you'd still have to download each bundle |
| 15:52.07 | Laraul | go to cmd prompt and enter type common.MPQ |
| 15:52.09 | Zeal | seperately or in one go. |
| 15:52.45 | Zeal | "enter type" ? |
| 15:52.59 | Laraul | er type yes |
| 15:53.09 | Laraul | like type blah.txt |
| 15:53.15 | Zeal | as opposed to type type, lol |
| 15:53.36 | sancus | the download wouldn't chaneg |
| 15:53.38 | sancus | er change |
| 15:53.39 | Laraul | i don't know how type will handle that |
| 15:53.42 | sancus | the application process would |
| 15:53.47 | Laraul | The download is irrelevent |
| 15:53.49 | Zeal | type doesn't even work |
| 15:53.53 | Zeal | no such thing |
| 15:54.12 | Laraul | er what os you using? |
| 15:54.16 | Zeal | xp |
| 15:54.19 | sancus | ?? |
| 15:54.22 | sancus | type works on xp :P |
| 15:54.29 | Laraul | you serious try type /? |
| 15:54.31 | Zeal | not on mine *shrug* |
| 15:54.43 | Zeal | rofl sorry |
| 15:54.48 | Laraul | find it |
| 15:54.54 | Zeal | tired. cmd != run |
| 15:55.40 | Zeal | so.. what wer you expecting, as the result = MPQ |
| 15:55.43 | Zeal | *were |
| 15:55.53 | Zeal | yes, version me >_> |
| 15:56.07 | Zeal | actually i need to update when i never bother to restart.. |
| 15:57.34 | Zeal | opened patch-2.mpq if you prefer |
| 15:57.42 | Zeal | text editor managed to handle that |
| 15:58.18 | Laraul | in mirc type /loadbuf <path>\common.mpq |
| 15:58.37 | Laraul | in mirc type /loadbuf #wowwiki <path>\common.mpq |
| 15:59.50 | Zeal | how about no? :s |
| 16:01.59 | Laraul | You don't have any type of hex editor |
| 16:02.28 | Zeal | and? how about you just get to the point? O_o |
| 16:03.13 | Laraul | //window @buff | /loadbuf @buff "C:\Program Files\World of Warcraft\Data\common.MPQ" |
| 16:03.21 | Laraul | Copy and paste that |
| 16:03.34 | Zeal | no.. |
| 16:03.40 | Laraul | lol |
| 16:04.05 | Laraul | Zeal... then you go look up the definition of a binary yourself |
| 16:04.06 | Zeal | don't want to sit here with a frozen irc when you can just tell me your point. |
| 16:04.29 | Laraul | My point is explained |
| 16:04.40 | Zeal | rofl, we had moved on if that was your point |
| 16:04.41 | Laraul | You obviously still did not understand |
| 16:05.04 | Zeal | yeah sure.. |
| 16:05.14 | Zeal | wanys.. i'm off now |
| 16:05.18 | Zeal | *anyways |
| 16:05.21 | Zeal | nn all |
| 16:05.38 | Laraul | i'm still updating! |
| 16:06.02 | Zeal | and you're also now back on ignore ¬_¬ |
| 16:07.06 | Laraul | You beat me to it you bastard! |
| 16:07.10 | Laraul | Well w/e |
| 16:09.20 | Laraul | crap |
| 16:09.33 | Laraul | well now it tells me my login info is for burning crusade |
| 16:09.51 | Laraul | 1hr 40 min long enough |
| 16:09.57 | sancus | Why are you telling him to load multi-gigabyte binaries into mIRC? :P |
| 16:10.24 | Laraul | i told him use a text editor but he refused |
| 16:10.33 | Laraul | if he |
| 16:10.58 | sancus | ... that still doesnt explain it |
| 16:11.00 | sancus | don't do that. |
| 16:11.17 | Laraul | too lazy to open a hex editor... i thought I'd just let him copy and paste what to type |
| 16:12.43 | Laraul | it wouldn't load the full file anyway... |
| 16:12.56 | Laraul | Probably wouldn't load any of it |
| 16:13.46 | Laraul | Anyhow... 4 patches |
| 16:15.23 | Laraul | When I installed the expansion... I was not expecting to get upgrade after upgrade... i had no idea how many it would be |
| 16:15.52 | Laraul | that's why i don't like it |
| 16:19.43 | Laraul | i just think it should download load updates like a console would |
| 16:33.01 | *** join/#wowwiki Tuqui (n=Tuqui-tu@smtp.badertv.com) |
| 17:01.35 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Tekkub] by ChanServ |
| 17:21.05 | *** join/#wowwiki Bagginsww (n=Valiento@adsl-69-226-99-154.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net) |
| 17:21.17 | Bagginsww | http://forums.white-wolf.com/viewtopic.php?t=53418&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15 left my thoughts about the new Monster Manual there. |
| 17:32.37 | Bagginsww | oh kirkburn don't know if you'll get htis message but here is an example of lore in the Monster Guide; |
| 17:32.40 | Bagginsww | "Flamewakers are ruthless servants of Ragnaros. They forma rigid society int he fiery regions of the Elemental Plane, rules by a monarch who in turn answers only to Ragnaros."MG 75 |
| 17:32.51 | Bagginsww | only one or two setences mostly :p |
| 17:33.14 | Bagginsww | so you'd be better off asking me to quote articles for you, and save your money. |
| 17:33.27 | Bagginsww | Not unless you plan to use the book for RPG purposes |
| 17:33.39 | Bagginsww | since it is mostly gameplay rules. |
| 17:34.37 | Kirkburn|afk | Good evening my fellow wowwikians |
| 17:35.02 | Kirkburn|afk | I note with satisfaction that I haven't been pinged for a while :) |
| 17:35.07 | Kirkburn|afk | Oh wait |
| 17:35.22 | Kirkburn|afk | How did you not ping me just then? |
| 17:36.47 | Kirkburn|afk | Bagginsww, I still need LoC and APG, so I'm in no rush :P |
| 17:37.04 | Bagginsww | Now those two books are worth owning |
| 17:37.16 | Bagginsww | they are more lore than gameplay. |
| 17:37.50 | Bagginsww | Monster Guide leaves me feeling like I wasted my money. Yet I won't send it back, since I want it for my collection. |
| 17:38.04 | Bagginsww | at least to be be "complete" |
| 17:38.05 | Kirkburn|afk | Yep, I'd love to come back one day from Uni, open the Amazon order, look at the books, and say "OWNED!" |
| 17:38.18 | Bagginsww | lol |
| 17:38.37 | Kirkburn|afk | And dance around like I was earlier to some particularly funky beats |
| 17:38.44 | Bagginsww | heh heh |
| 17:39.32 | Kirkburn|afk | Well, someone had to get MG just so we knew what was in it, and I thank you for taking the plunge :) |
| 17:40.13 | Bagginsww | NP |
| 17:40.18 | Bagginsww | LOL |
| 17:40.32 | Bagginsww | At least Dark Factions is going back to the Brann/Lore routine |
| 17:40.55 | Kirkburn|afk | Dark Factions? |
| 17:41.02 | Kirkburn|afk | When was that announced? |
| 17:41.31 | Bagginsww | Uh briefly in the front of APG "upcoming" list, and officially a few months later. |
| 17:41.31 | Kirkburn|afk | And what do we know about it? |
| 17:41.40 | Bagginsww | Monster Guide discusses more that it will have in it. |
| 17:41.45 | Kirkburn|afk | Outland? |
| 17:42.47 | Kirkburn|afk | See, i had pizza this morning for breakfast, so I guess I should have cereal for dinner :P |
| 17:42.53 | Bagginsww | Arachnathid, clockwerk goblin, couatl, chromatic dragon, dragon turtle, hobgoblin, makrura prawn, mur'gul, nerubian spiderlord, pandaren, snap dragon, spiderling swarm, tub wyrm, and tuskarr |
| 17:43.10 | Bagginsww | That's the monster guide like material its supposed to include |
| 17:43.20 | *** join/#wowwiki Adys (n=Miranda@APoitiers-256-1-48-212.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 17:43.20 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Adys] by ChanServ |
| 17:43.21 | Bagginsww | like the APG, and HPG had a few "monster guide" type articles |
| 17:43.29 | Kirkburn|afk | Okay, sounds cool |
| 17:43.31 | Bagginsww | like with the mountain giants and what not |
| 17:43.36 | Adys | morning' |
| 17:43.59 | Bagginsww | Other than that I think its going to go into more stuff about the Scourge, Blood Elves, Pandaren societies |
| 17:44.10 | Bagginsww | maybe Makrura societies too |
| 17:44.16 | Bagginsww | Naga? |
| 17:44.20 | Kirkburn|afk | Bagginsww, ah I see the type of article you mean (flicking thru HPG atm) |
| 17:44.22 | Kirkburn|afk | Hey Adys |
| 17:44.30 | Bagginsww | ya, centaurs, etc |
| 17:45.04 | Laraul | woot... copying like 30 gigs over a wireless connection |
| 17:45.48 | Bagginsww | there is a small article on naga and blood elves in Monster Guide, but its not really anything in detail about their societies |
| 17:45.58 | Bagginsww | So I have a feeling those will be expanded on |
| 17:46.15 | Bagginsww | not sure how Pandaren's fits into a "dark faction" but guess they didn't have another place for them. |
| 17:46.22 | Bagginsww | Its now or never. |
| 17:46.53 | Bagginsww | as this is more or less the replacement for the independent race sections from the old Alliance & Horde compendium as far as I kinow. |
| 17:47.50 | Kirkburn|afk | I guess "Dark" could be taken to mean "unknown" |
| 17:47.50 | Kirkburn|afk | or mysterious |
| 17:48.23 | Bagginsww | although some of those "independents" made it into APG and HPG as well. Like the furbolgs, and wildhammers |
| 17:48.29 | Bagginsww | maybe |
| 17:48.35 | Bagginsww | could mean "mysterious" |
| 17:50.19 | Bagginsww | There hasn't been a guide on the scourge yet, so I think this the time it will be done. |
| 17:50.51 | Bagginsww | there has been some hints at scourge hiearchy in the old "Manual of Monsters'< and some scourge undead in Monster Guide, but nothing detailed. |
| 17:50.58 | Bagginsww | I'd love to hear Brann's take, heh. |
| 17:51.14 | Bagginsww | I wonder if Dark FActions will have, the Qiraji, ;) |
| 17:51.32 | Bagginsww | That would be cool |
| 17:52.36 | Kirkburn|afk | Any ETA? |
| 17:52.54 | Bagginsww | Haven't heard anything yet |
| 17:52.58 | Kirkburn|afk | kk |
| 17:53.05 | Kirkburn|afk | Well, gonna have something to eat, chat l8r :) |
| 17:53.08 | Bagginsww | I'm guessing next 4 months or so |
| 17:53.20 | Bagginsww | as they seem to release them about 3-4 months apart |
| 17:53.24 | Kirkburn|afk | Ta for the info, interesting stuff |
| 17:53.55 | Bagginsww | np, and remember if there is any specific Monster Guide article you want me to type up for you, I will take the plunge LOL. |
| 17:54.04 | Bagginsww | Minus the gameplay stuff :p |
| 17:56.39 | *** join/#wowwiki LimitedEdition[W (n=paiva11u@160.202.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com) |
| 18:00.16 | *** join/#wowwiki Gryphen (n=gryphon@mail.alexdevco.com) |
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| 18:03.20 | LimitedEdition[W | Could I take about linking an image to my page? |
| 18:04.06 | mxs | how do you mean ? |
| 18:04.13 | Bagginsww | I think Dark Factions will probably be the last of the Pre-BC books. Now that BC is out I'm sure it will start influencing the next series of books. |
| 18:04.13 | LimitedEdition[W | could I talk to some one about linking an image to my page, sorry getting tired |
| 18:04.57 | mxs | LimitedEdition[W: it's still not exactly clear what you mean :) Do you want to link to an image hosted on wowwiki, or the other way around ? |
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| 18:07.08 | LimitedEdition[W | hosted by wowwiki |
| 18:08.07 | LimitedEdition[W | I found the help page, I hosted my picture, I am using [[image:filename.jpg|right|50px|]] |
| 18:08.19 | LimitedEdition[W | but no pic |
| 18:10.27 | Bagginsww | anything new this year for the festival? |
| 18:11.05 | mxs | LimitedEdition[W: and where are you trying that ? |
| 18:12.43 | Adys | Slowdown incoming |
| 18:14.06 | LimitedEdition[W | On the page I want the picture |
| 18:14.24 | Gryphen | [[Image:Rags.JPG|right|thumb|50px|]] |
| 18:15.14 | Adys | A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. The last attempted database query was: |
| 18:15.14 | Adys | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:15.14 | Adys | from within function "Job::batchInsert". MySQL returned error "1205: Lock wait timeout exceeded; try restarting transaction (localhost)". |
| 18:15.25 | Gryphen | JPG != jpg |
| 18:15.34 | LimitedEdition[W | ah lol zors |
| 18:15.47 | LimitedEdition[W | ty |
| 18:36.39 | Tekkub | WTF? |
| 18:36.45 | Tekkub | ===[[Molten Core|<font color="white">Molten Core</font>]]=== |
| 18:36.49 | Tekkub | why? |
| 18:42.11 | Bagginsww | bah it looks like you can't do the lunar festival quests again :p |
| 18:42.49 | Tekkub | big friggin loss |
| 18:42.58 | Bagginsww | I did them last year, assumed like most holiday quests you could repeat them |
| 18:43.11 | Bagginsww | well its like 3000 rep to all alliance factions |
| 18:43.17 | Bagginsww | if you find the elders |
| 18:43.24 | Tekkub | the festival in exodar as well? free access to IF for flight paths :) |
| 18:43.26 | Bagginsww | so was hoping to be able to repleat it |
| 18:43.31 | Bagginsww | LOL |
| 18:43.50 | Bagginsww | not sure actually |
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| 19:06.09 | Chudz | Hey |
| 19:07.20 | Chudz | I got my Hallowed Trousers before woundering if someone can reckonmend an enchant to go on them. I think maybe rep rewards or tailoring can make better than normal enchanterx |
| 19:07.38 | Chudz | need a really good one :) |
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| 19:58.15 | Hobinheim|work | all time high rediculousness |
| 19:58.21 | Hobinheim|work | and i keep saying that every time i go to the wiki |
| 19:58.26 | Hobinheim|work | and wonder how it could possibly get worse each day |
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| 20:31.56 | Tepetkhet | What's the max # of chars in a name for a WoW character? |
| 20:32.01 | Tepetkhet | 12? 13? |
| 20:33.42 | winkiller | 12 surely |
| 20:33.46 | winkiller | maybe more |
| 20:36.39 | Bagginsww | there better be fligh paths to tor'watha, and Zul'aman when those are implemented |
| 20:37.01 | Bagginsww | cause those are a long ways to run :p |
| 20:37.14 | Hobinheim|work | tor'watha is guarded by a bunch of wusbags |
| 20:37.30 | Hobinheim|work | even though i like pretending to be a troll with a speech impediment when i say it |
| 20:37.33 | Bagginsww | but it has a raid dungeon thing behind the gate |
| 20:37.50 | Bagginsww | green swirly |
| 20:37.55 | Hobinheim|work | i barely saw it |
| 20:37.56 | Bagginsww | nothing guarding the actual gate though |
| 20:37.59 | Hobinheim|work | but yes, it was there |
| 20:38.00 | Bagginsww | I blinked :) |
| 20:38.07 | Hobinheim|work | lol through it? |
| 20:38.08 | Bagginsww | yep |
| 20:38.13 | Bagginsww | saw it form the otherside |
| 20:38.13 | Hobinheim|work | mages and their blinking... |
| 20:38.22 | Hobinheim|work | did the portal interact with you? |
| 20:38.28 | Bagginsww | nah |
| 20:38.31 | Hobinheim|work | or did it have nothing programmed at all |
| 20:38.37 | Bagginsww | its not int eh game yet |
| 20:39.22 | Bagginsww | I hear sunwell plat will be level 65+ content |
| 20:39.38 | Hobinheim|work | sunwell plat? |
| 20:39.47 | Hobinheim|work | i love how like... |
| 20:39.54 | Hobinheim|work | there's an eversong faction |
| 20:39.58 | Hobinheim|work | i got a sweet sweet shadow sword |
| 20:40.29 | Hobinheim|work | i wonder if the alliance can gain rep with them |
| 20:40.29 | Hobinheim|work | since they're a faction........ |
| 20:40.36 | Bagginsww | eversong faction where? |
| 20:40.42 | Hobinheim|work | sorry ghostlands |
| 20:40.50 | Bagginsww | ahh |
| 20:40.58 | Bagginsww | I think they are red to me |
| 20:41.28 | Hobinheim|work | oh you're alliance? |
| 20:41.38 | Hobinheim|work | HATED by the invisible tranquillien... |
| 20:42.43 | Bagginsww | heh heh |
| 20:42.57 | mxs | you actually get a rep bar for them ? |
| 20:43.04 | Bagginsww | well that's why I was saying we need some kind of flightpath |
| 20:43.12 | Bagginsww | nah I mean they are red |
| 20:43.17 | Bagginsww | I can kill them |
| 20:43.43 | Bagginsww | cause its a very long run if that area is going to have levle 70 content |
| 20:43.44 | Hobinheim|work | wait, you as alliance need a flightpath in the ghostlands? |
| 20:43.50 | Bagginsww | ya |
| 20:43.53 | Hobinheim|work | oh right right future contnet |
| 20:43.59 | Bagginsww | ya not needed now |
| 20:44.02 | Hobinheim|work | how many fps are there in the barrens? |
| 20:44.04 | Bagginsww | but all those dungeons |
| 20:44.11 | Bagginsww | 1 for alliance I think |
| 20:44.12 | Hobinheim|work | how about a portal? that good enough? haha |
| 20:44.14 | Bagginsww | shared |
| 20:44.18 | Bagginsww | portal would be fine |
| 20:44.32 | Bagginsww | portal and and two flight nodes maybe |
| 20:44.40 | Bagginsww | one for north and one for the soutyh |
| 20:44.59 | Hobinheim|work | anyway, i doubt a fp would be in order, from a lore perspective |
| 20:45.06 | Hobinheim|work | you would be flying in horde territory |
| 20:45.12 | Bagginsww | well they could put htem in the night elf camp |
| 20:45.21 | Bagginsww | ya and we have a flighpath in barrens too |
| 20:45.22 | Bagginsww | LOL |
| 20:45.23 | Hobinheim|work | i can shoot you down with my arcane goliath AA missles |
| 20:45.29 | Bagginsww | lol |
| 20:45.34 | Hobinheim|work | no, you have a flight path over the water next to ratchet |
| 20:45.37 | Bagginsww | ratchet has a flightpath |
| 20:45.46 | Hobinheim|work | which is barely in view of the zevrha safari exhibition |
| 20:45.48 | Bagginsww | but its still "horde territory" |
| 20:46.00 | Bagginsww | as far as entering the area |
| 20:46.25 | Bagginsww | quel'thalas is also difference since it will have hsared content |
| 20:46.29 | Bagginsww | *different |
| 20:46.33 | Bagginsww | *shared |
| 20:46.46 | Hobinheim|work | quel'thalas? |
| 20:46.57 | Hobinheim|work | wait where is qual'thalas? |
| 20:47.27 | Bagginsww | Quel'thalas is the term for the nation covering both ghoastlands, and eversong |
| 20:47.43 | Hobinheim|work | ahh |
| 20:47.45 | Bagginsww | its going to have a third zone later |
| 20:47.50 | Hobinheim|work | how do you know |
| 20:47.52 | Bagginsww | Sunwell plateau |
| 20:48.01 | Bagginsww | well that's what the desigers claimed |
| 20:48.05 | Bagginsww | they could change their mind |
| 20:48.17 | Bagginsww | altought the area has its importance to lroe |
| 20:48.22 | Bagginsww | and the sunwell trilogy |
| 20:49.06 | Hobinheim|work | where on the map would it be |
| 20:49.37 | Bagginsww | well few blood elves that refer to it in game seem to imply its across the sea north of eversong |
| 20:49.37 | Hobinheim|work | damn, wait so all of quel'thalas is instanced right |
| 20:49.41 | Hobinheim|work | i totally forget about that |
| 20:49.43 | Bagginsww | ya currently |
| 20:50.10 | Hobinheim|work | haha i bet the developers were like YES LOAD BALANCING THANK GOD |
| 20:50.29 | Bagginsww | I think it was actually to keep from redesigning the main world :p |
| 20:50.33 | Bagginsww | to save them time |
| 20:50.53 | Bagginsww | and another way to avoid having to work towards flying mounts LOL |
| 20:51.16 | Hobinheim|work | so, lore master baggins, what can you tell me about the ruins of silvermoon |
| 20:51.22 | Hobinheim|work | it has various.... sub regions defined |
| 20:51.28 | Hobinheim|work | actually you know what that totally makes sense |
| 20:51.38 | Hobinheim|work | if the ruins are actually a ruined version of a real city, of course it has subzones |
| 20:51.43 | Bagginsww | heh |
| 20:51.48 | Hobinheim|work | so clever, blizzard. so clever... |
| 20:51.52 | Bagginsww | don't all cities have subzones though? |
| 20:51.53 | Hobinheim|work | i'm like why is this empty road NAMED |
| 20:52.07 | Hobinheim|work | yeah but usually outdoor zones don't have so many names for such a small small area |
| 20:52.16 | Hobinheim|work | the bc content is name crazy |
| 20:52.20 | Bagginsww | its truly an interesting city though |
| 20:52.26 | Hobinheim|work | the ruined side? |
| 20:52.31 | Hobinheim|work | it's fully decorated |
| 20:52.38 | Hobinheim|work | it has a statue in the middle (with its own zone name) |
| 20:52.46 | Bagginsww | even Erodar had inside and outside compoments |
| 20:52.47 | Hobinheim|work | and it featured red ballistas on the side, which is my favorite |
| 20:53.08 | Hobinheim|work | it's just overrun by a bunch of loser drug addicts |
| 20:53.11 | Hobinheim|work | and feral robots |
| 20:53.31 | Bagginsww | Have you ever been to "false quel'thalas"? |
| 20:54.06 | Hobinheim|work | no, what's that |
| 20:54.09 | Bagginsww | like swiming around the shores of western plaguelands |
| 20:54.19 | Bagginsww | to where quel'thalas is located |
| 20:54.21 | Hobinheim|work | i've mapviewed it |
| 20:54.24 | Hobinheim|work | pre 2.0 |
| 20:54.26 | Hobinheim|work | what's there now? |
| 20:54.27 | Bagginsww | its an itneresting swim |
| 20:54.30 | Bagginsww | same as before |
| 20:54.33 | Hobinheim|work | yeah it's just a bunch of mountains |
| 20:54.38 | Hobinheim|work | and plateaus |
| 20:54.39 | Bagginsww | but you'll have "discover quel'thalas" |
| 20:54.44 | Hobinheim|work | no way really |
| 20:54.45 | Bagginsww | when you get into the area |
| 20:54.51 | Hobinheim|work | oh well i never actually physically was there |
| 20:54.53 | Bagginsww | well there is one interting spot |
| 20:54.57 | Hobinheim|work | i glitched it or used mapviewer |
| 20:54.58 | Bagginsww | interesting |
| 20:55.16 | Bagginsww | a small night elf landing site |
| 20:55.33 | Hobinheim|work | ? |
| 20:56.04 | Bagginsww | has a dock, and one of those night elf tower things |
| 20:56.17 | Bagginsww | ruins from presundering |
| 20:57.35 | Hobinheim|work | i really like the blood elves |
| 20:57.41 | Hobinheim|work | although i'm not sure if i'm being clouded by fanboyism |
| 20:57.53 | Hobinheim|work | it's different, it's funnier, it's prettier |
| 20:57.54 | Bagginsww | LOL |
| 20:58.01 | Hobinheim|work | i don't like what other people like |
| 20:58.03 | Bagginsww | I like the music |
| 20:58.09 | Hobinheim|work | i don't like to like what other people like i mean |
| 20:58.16 | Hobinheim|work | so if everyone likes the blood elves i'm like back off this is mine |
| 20:58.29 | Hobinheim|work | like if i ever hear the warlock forums go ORC LOCK IS THE SHIT i'll just explode |
| 20:58.30 | Bagginsww | LOL |
| 20:58.53 | Hobinheim|work | although playing a pally isn't all fun and crumpets |
| 20:59.00 | Hobinheim|work | the grind still isn't jiving with me |
| 20:59.08 | Hobinheim|work | this "alleged" no downtime... |
| 20:59.17 | Hobinheim|work | by the time i lay off a heal, i'm already more damaged |
| 20:59.24 | Bagginsww | blood elves aren't as evil as people say they are. There is a bit of tragedy to their story. |
| 20:59.49 | Hobinheim|work | mind controling trouble makers in the city = brilliant |
| 21:00.01 | Bagginsww | heh |
| 21:00.10 | Hobinheim|work | i think... blood elves are a bit unfair. the devleopers had more time to design them and they learned from their mistakes |
| 21:00.17 | Hobinheim|work | i bet the exodar is designed just as nicely |
| 21:00.35 | Hobinheim|work | there's a tauren druid in silvermoon they call cowlady |
| 21:00.36 | winkiller | it looks totally awkward |
| 21:01.07 | Hobinheim|work | and there's one lady blood knight and another collapsed blood knight and she's all like, move along, there's nothing to see here |
| 21:01.10 | Hobinheim|work | haha shady |
| 21:06.09 | Bagginsww | ya exodar is nice |
| 21:07.05 | Bagginsww | its odd though there doesn't seem to be room for level 70 content planned for the azuremist isles |
| 21:07.16 | Bagginsww | no blocked instances or anything |
| 21:12.21 | Bagginsww | hmm I made it into the deadscar that passes between the city nothing there |
| 21:13.42 | Bagginsww | doesn't look like there is a way to get out of it either LOL |
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| 21:26.34 | westnyle | Hello |
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| 22:01.50 | Montagg | Are spells supposed to have their own templates? [[Template:Spell:26176]] |
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| 22:13.01 | Adys | http://www.wowwiki.com/User_talk:Varghedin#Instance_category_splits |
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| 22:23.46 | Erissia | oh well this is neat |
| 22:32.13 | Erissia | :o |
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| 22:47.04 | Deathface | hello |
| 22:50.56 | Erissia | hello :) |
| 22:52.22 | Deathface | im a lvl 60 hunter with a pet i got at lvl 5 and trained it up to 60 with me |
| 22:52.48 | Deathface | now im in hellfire peninsula and i want a ravager pet...whats the disadvantages to getting a new pet opposed to one i trained to lvl 60? |
| 22:53.12 | Erissia | depends on what it is |
| 22:53.24 | Erissia | Im a priest though =( |
| 22:53.28 | Erissia | i only know how to heal |
| 22:53.45 | Erissia | and melt face some times |
| 23:07.17 | Montagg | Deathface: None. They should be generally equal in stats. The only difference is in race. |
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| 23:33.35 | Montagg | Anyone seen /Fear and Loathing in Los Vegas/? |
| 23:42.48 | Deathface | motagg thanks for the response |
| 23:42.56 | Deathface | so theres no advantage to raising a pet from a small level? |
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