| 00:00.00 | Kirkburn|afk | I've seen what happens when someone gets power crazy, I don't want to see it again |
| 00:00.27 | Kirkburn|afk | I know you feel there's a rush, but I really can't see it |
| 00:00.29 | dotted | Kirkburn|afk having to contact an admin each time is dishearting, and ppl will get the "i cba"-thing going on |
| 00:00.37 | Zeal | if a well sued template is getting vandalized or needs an urgent change to match something going on, otherwise it leaves content in a state where it can't be acessed or displayed properly, it needs urgent attention. |
| 00:00.44 | Zeal | *used |
| 00:00.47 | dotted | Kirkburn|afk becuase you are the admin you can do it all |
| 00:00.50 | Kirkburn|afk | Do you know how many admins the wiki had until august 2006? |
| 00:01.05 | Kirkburn|afk | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:01.18 | Zeal | i'll take a wild guess and say 4 |
| 00:01.21 | Kirkburn|afk | Two. |
| 00:01.46 | Zeal | would this be ata similar time you realized the teams were failiing? ;) |
| 00:01.59 | dotted | Kirkburn|afk well if you have a shit loads ppl with the same powers it aint gonna work |
| 00:02.01 | Kirkburn|afk | No, me and Mikk were added because of vandalism. |
| 00:02.19 | Kirkburn|afk | The wiki itself was fine |
| 00:02.46 | Kirkburn|afk | Zeal, added the admins team, good idea that |
| 00:02.58 | Zeal | heh, ty i guess. |
| 00:03.18 | dotted | but Kirkburn|afk there is no way to add powers to specific areas? |
| 00:03.33 | Kirkburn|afk | Do note the only problem I really have is the powers thing, not the teams themselves, I'm looking at them atm |
| 00:03.43 | Zeal | i know |
| 00:03.51 | Kirkburn|afk | dotted, not easily |
| 00:03.58 | Zeal | but i feel the teams fall apart without the powers |
| 00:04.05 | Kirkburn|afk | I should probably say "not likely" |
| 00:04.11 | dotted | hmm |
| 00:04.19 | Zeal | the only power i would be scared to give people, is delete. |
| 00:04.57 | Kirkburn|afk | Mainly you want the template team separate from the 'style/article' team |
| 00:05.18 | dotted | well if eg. lore ppl got powers within lore area and it was their responsability (with the right ppl to do the job ofc) you would have a great working team |
| 00:05.29 | dotted | that ofc is utopia :( |
| 00:05.33 | Kirkburn|afk | heh |
| 00:05.34 | Zeal | well i saw them more belonging as part of the help team, with a slight overlap with the article council. |
| 00:05.38 | Kirkburn|afk | The lore team doesn't require powers though |
| 00:05.52 | Kirkburn|afk | Ragestorm has powers, but has no need for them in relation to his lore job |
| 00:06.26 | Zeal | oh and ban users, almost forgot that one. ban and delete. only two i'd be close guarded of. |
| 00:06.43 | Zeal | doesn;t mean i'd hand out the others like candy :P |
| 00:06.49 | Kirkburn|afk | Policies are done at the highest level, I don't like major votes passing without other admins chiming in |
| 00:07.04 | dotted | well basicly it would be best to ask the team members if they get frustrauted for the need to contact an admin each time they want to change something locked or similiar |
| 00:07.21 | Kirkburn|afk | I mean, fair enough the team leaders having the powers, but not every team member |
| 00:07.34 | Kirkburn|afk | Sometimes you want someone on the tean, but seriously don't want them to have powers |
| 00:07.37 | Kirkburn|afk | *team |
| 00:07.41 | Zeal | well, if you wanted, all team leaders must be members of the admin team. |
| 00:08.01 | Kirkburn|afk | More like, they'd become members |
| 00:08.19 | Zeal | cos atm, isn;t it policy, any policy can be put into place with concensus, but an admin has the power to veto it. |
| 00:08.34 | Zeal | lol, same thing ;) |
| 00:08.39 | Zeal | but yeah |
| 00:08.49 | dotted | whats the point in belonmging to a team if its no different from being a normal member? |
| 00:09.21 | dotted | you could set up requirements for joining a team etc (granted im not sure how these teams work) |
| 00:09.26 | Zeal | tbh, that seems sensable to me, it;s like all teams have a representative on the admin team, in order to report on issues they deal with and offer points of view that might otherwise be missed. |
| 00:09.43 | Kirkburn|afk | dotted, I'd leaving joining stuff to the team leaders, their choice |
| 00:10.51 | Kirkburn|afk | Support Team = Help Team, equivalent? |
| 00:10.52 | Zeal | aye |
| 00:10.55 | Zeal | yes |
| 00:11.00 | Kirkburn|afk | okies |
| 00:11.03 | Zeal | i was experimenting with names :P |
| 00:11.18 | Zeal | which makes me wonder who told ragestorm he couldn't recruit anymore? :P |
| 00:11.37 | Kirkburn|afk | The Watchdogs are basically those who are part of the patrollers group |
| 00:11.42 | Zeal | mhm |
| 00:11.59 | Kirkburn|afk | because the whole team thing wasn't really working |
| 00:12.01 | Zeal | i just thought of giving them powers to deal with vandals rapidly, then and there. |
| 00:12.10 | Kirkburn|afk | There was a lore team, but that was pretty much it in terms of activity :P |
| 00:12.58 | Gryphon | why are there vandals there not reported to known vandals? |
| 00:13.23 | Kirkburn|afk | Hypothetical? |
| 00:13.54 | Gryphon | why?* |
| 00:14.05 | Kirkburn|afk | Are you saying there are? |
| 00:14.09 | Zeal | if i understand what you're saying Gryphon, there isn't. i was jsut trying to remove a bottleneck. |
| 00:14.25 | Gryphon | well that is what all the current admins were added for, vandalism |
| 00:14.40 | Kirkburn|afk | ^ this is true |
| 00:15.04 | dotted | if you want teams to work, you'd have to give them powers within and only within their area. the getting powers of everthing or nothing isnt good becuase wowiki is really big now |
| 00:15.05 | Kirkburn|afk | Gryphon, do you want me to add you to the OP list here? :P |
| 00:15.06 | Zeal | ofc, i can see that. but it's still bottleneck. |
| 00:15.21 | Gryphon | ya |
| 00:15.33 | Kirkburn|afk | heh, since you changed name :) |
| 00:15.41 | Zeal | lol |
| 00:15.41 | Gryphon | host |
| 00:15.45 | Gryphon | well |
| 00:15.48 | Gryphon | hehe |
| 00:16.09 | Kirkburn|afk | Time to remember the code |
| 00:16.09 | Gryphon | between work and home its inconistant :) |
| 00:16.36 | Zeal | i'm onyl really used to using L and Q, and thats been over a year now.. |
| 00:16.46 | Gryphon | anyway, there is always bottlenecks in any community, you can give everyone admin power on a forum because an admin might not be around |
| 00:17.30 | Zeal | yes but with each team having 5 + members, atleast soemthing like 2-3 in each not overlapping, the likelyhood of a bottleneck is greatly increased. |
| 00:17.56 | Zeal | *descreased |
| 00:17.57 | Zeal | rofl |
| 00:17.59 | Gryphon | a vandal is a vandal no matter where on the wiki |
| 00:18.03 | Gryphon | or what team |
| 00:18.05 | Kirkburn|afk | Gryphon, are you identified? |
| 00:18.17 | Gryphon | prob not, im multi tasking, dont have time to find it |
| 00:18.23 | Kirkburn|afk | heh |
| 00:18.26 | Gryphon | just watching chat and need to chime in |
| 00:18.30 | Kirkburn|afk | Anyway, you should auto-op now |
| 00:18.48 | Zeal | ofc Gryphon |
| 00:18.50 | Kirkburn|afk | Vandals aren't specific to any team, this is true |
| 00:19.15 | Kirkburn|afk | By which I'm saying admins are there to deal with vandals, that's the vandal team |
| 00:19.36 | Gryphon | vandalism happens, and an admin bans, happens in any community |
| 00:19.45 | Kirkburn|afk | (so, uh, vandals are specific to a team I guess >.< ) |
| 00:19.47 | Zeal | i would understand the desire to remove their ban powers, and leave it to their leader or admin to resolve. was just merely thinking, vandalism is the one thing that really needs to be rapid response. |
| 00:19.56 | dotted | Kirkburn|afk imo having the teams taking care of the vandals in their area is better |
| 00:20.15 | Gryphon | why? |
| 00:20.16 | Kirkburn|afk | There's no such thing as a vandal of a certain area, vandals aren't discerning :P |
| 00:20.23 | Gryphon | vandalism is site wide |
| 00:20.26 | Zeal | not really dotted, i think globally is fine. |
| 00:20.36 | Zeal | lol Kirkburn|afk |
| 00:20.42 | Zeal | tell that to lore vandals ;) |
| 00:20.54 | Kirkburn|afk | lol |
| 00:20.57 | Zeal | though refering to them as vandals is very loose. |
| 00:21.38 | dotted | i just think a global team is not gonna work because of the size of wowwiki, but i dont know |
| 00:22.00 | Zeal | and they already go through the bookkeepers, ragestorm himself, and then admins as a whole. |
| 00:22.44 | Zeal | think the only place where vandalism isn't global, is determing what is and isn't vandalism. |
| 00:23.07 | Zeal | an admin who doesn't knwo the lore, could easily miss something one of the bookkeepers would notice as vandalism. |
| 00:23.26 | Gryphon | that is why they report it to known vandals |
| 00:23.35 | Zeal | mhm |
| 00:23.39 | Zeal | yeah, that's fine. |
| 00:24.10 | Zeal | well banning users can be dropped as a power. |
| 00:24.24 | Gryphon | its like a 'report this post' feature on a forum where admins dont read every post |
| 00:24.32 | Zeal | true |
| 00:24.56 | Zeal | it's just a question of amount of admins and activity of admins when vandals need to be delt with urgently. |
| 00:25.18 | Gryphon | but you cant just make that reporter and admin just cause he read that post |
| 00:25.29 | dotted | if it would be possible to tempoarily hide the changes made by the vandal until investigated by an admin it would be great |
| 00:25.56 | Kirkburn|afk | Looking at the teams, I'm still preferring the selection I already had |
| 00:26.36 | Zeal | what exactly is the patrol script method btw? |
| 00:26.44 | Zeal | just wondering how to word that in terms of powers. |
| 00:26.53 | Kirkburn|afk | basically you get an option to show edits as patrolled |
| 00:27.03 | Zeal | just for you or globally? |
| 00:27.08 | Kirkburn|afk | Globally |
| 00:27.15 | Kirkburn|afk | Removes the red ! from the RC |
| 00:27.18 | Kirkburn|afk | (and NP) |
| 00:27.21 | Zeal | ah kk |
| 00:27.24 | Zeal | and the skip list? |
| 00:27.31 | Kirkburn|afk | skip list? |
| 00:27.36 | Zeal | yeah :s |
| 00:27.45 | Zeal | theres a list of user's edits to ignore isn't there? |
| 00:27.55 | Kirkburn|afk | Not come across that |
| 00:28.00 | Kirkburn|afk | Oh THAT |
| 00:28.07 | Kirkburn|afk | Oh yeah, that's Mikk's thing |
| 00:28.21 | Zeal | hehe |
| 00:28.22 | Kirkburn|afk | Oh, that's just done on a judgement call |
| 00:28.33 | Zeal | but can all the RC patrol edit that? |
| 00:28.50 | Kirkburn|afk | Nope, just admins I think |
| 00:29.18 | Kirkburn|afk | It's such an obscure page it doesn't really need protection, tbh |
| 00:30.13 | Kirkburn|afk | Atm it's a case of Crow's Nest & Style Council VS Article Team, Category Team, Template Team |
| 00:30.33 | Kirkburn|afk | My personal view is that the category team will be severly anaemic |
| 00:31.15 | Kirkburn|afk | (it already failed once) |
| 00:31.32 | Kirkburn|afk | No-one wants to spend their wiki life being the 'category' guy =) |
| 00:31.40 | Zeal | oh? lol |
| 00:32.23 | Zeal | Well, on a side note, i don't liek the name crows nest, it's a place, and object. it's not a job, it's not a name for a group of people. :P |
| 00:32.31 | Kirkburn|afk | And then if that was discounted, then we get a giant overreaching Article Team, hrm |
| 00:32.54 | Kirkburn|afk | They're the lookouts, it's a cool name :( |
| 00:33.03 | Kirkburn|afk | heh |
| 00:33.05 | Zeal | Well i'm reducing the powers, and soem tasks atm. |
| 00:33.19 | Zeal | well that's by i reduced it Crows |
| 00:33.28 | Zeal | :p |
| 00:33.30 | Kirkburn|afk | I saw =) |
| 00:33.35 | Zeal | *why |
| 00:33.44 | Kirkburn|afk | It was appropriate for the team |
| 00:34.15 | Kirkburn|afk | Basically, the split I'm trying to create is between Content and Style |
| 00:34.24 | Zeal | Question though, the "real revert", does that do anything special other than automate the process? |
| 00:34.29 | Kirkburn|afk | Yes |
| 00:34.41 | Kirkburn|afk | I mean, yes, that's all it does |
| 00:34.53 | Kirkburn|afk | One-click reverts |
| 00:35.15 | dotted | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers |
| 00:35.16 | Zeal | well imo, the presentational style of content, and the content itself, are so closesly tied together, with the style overlapping other areas that it made sense to me. |
| 00:35.29 | Kirkburn|afk | I know, I've been thinking about that |
| 00:35.57 | Kirkburn|afk | But it needs some distinction otherwise the team won't have a good, simple 'agenda' to follow |
| 00:37.01 | Kirkburn|afk | Difficult |
| 00:37.15 | Zeal | everyone proposes styling, style decided, style incorperated into templates where needed, templates used, articles written with templates used, non-template related styling (which is rather minimal) used in accordance to the policies. |
| 00:37.47 | Zeal | along that, the team only deals with the last part |
| 00:38.25 | Zeal | *parts. ensuring the templates are used, and ensuring the content follows policy, where it be pov, styling or dnp etc. |
| 00:38.27 | Kirkburn|afk | I'll sleep on it |
| 00:38.45 | Kirkburn|afk | Believe me when I say, I know what you're talking about :) |
| 00:38.50 | Zeal | rofl |
| 00:38.52 | Zeal | i'm sure |
| 00:39.10 | Zeal | calrifying myself is part of my thought process ;) |
| 00:39.17 | Kirkburn|afk | Indeed =) |
| 00:40.02 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Gryphon] by Kirkburn|afk |
| 00:40.09 | Kirkburn|afk | ^ It was annoying me |
| 00:40.20 | Zeal | lol |
| 00:40.27 | Kirkburn|afk | Thanks for your input everyone, good discussion |
| 00:40.40 | Kirkburn|afk | At least it wasn't MoM related |
| 00:40.59 | Zeal | btw, the AMA dissolving, did you care that role would be lost, and rather admins take on disputes straight away? |
| 00:41.04 | Zeal | haha, indeed |
| 00:41.21 | Zeal | cos if you don't care, i'll drop it from the article council. |
| 00:44.08 | *** join/#wowwiki Adys (n=Miranda@APoitiers-256-1-155-81.w90-30.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 00:44.08 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Adys] by ChanServ |
| 00:44.15 | Adys | helloes |
| 00:44.39 | Kirkburn|afk | Hullo |
| 00:44.47 | Zeal | hey adys |
| 00:45.00 | Kirkburn|afk | Zeal, yeah disputes are solved in other ways |
| 00:45.08 | Zeal | other ways? |
| 00:45.26 | Kirkburn|afk | Common sense, I guess |
| 00:45.29 | Zeal | letting the ban hammer swing free? lol |
| 00:45.31 | Zeal | lol |
| 00:45.32 | Kirkburn|afk | There's never been any need for them |
| 00:45.49 | Zeal | i've seen my own number of disputes since i've been here :P |
| 00:45.53 | Zeal | but kk |
| 00:46.31 | Kirkburn|afk | heh, yeah, but it didn't need an arbitrator :P |
| 00:46.45 | Kirkburn|afk | No-one can really fill that role |
| 00:47.10 | Zeal | ragestorm does :p |
| 00:47.18 | Zeal | lol |
| 00:47.20 | Adys | Kirkburn|afk, whats the plan about the current community teams? Apart from Lorekeepers, I think we should get current members to reapply or something |
| 00:47.20 | Zeal | anyways.. |
| 00:47.33 | Zeal | jsut through of another name for the cat team. |
| 00:48.04 | Zeal | Architects |
| 00:48.16 | Adys | (and yeah I know I prob missed a part of the discussion, but hey I am busy nowadays><) |
| 00:49.30 | Zeal | don't think he's said anything about it from what i;ve seen :P |
| 00:49.35 | Kirkburn|afk | Adys most likely |
| 00:50.21 | Zeal | ok, updated my groups page then. |
| 00:50.22 | *** join/#wowwiki dok3Dal (n=dok@AStrasbourg-251-1-98-138.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 00:50.22 | Kirkburn|afk | Shall have to get Mikk and Fandyllic to discuss that stuff |
| 00:51.48 | Zeal | hm.. actually, if you didn't liek that name, i guess it could also apply to the template team instead.. |
| 00:52.07 | *** join/#wowwiki dok3Dal (n=dok@AStrasbourg-251-1-98-138.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 00:52.17 | Kirkburn|afk | (I'm instancing) |
| 00:52.34 | dotted | Zeal Engineers for cat team, architects for template team? |
| 00:52.48 | Zeal | yeah.. something like that sounds nice |
| 00:53.11 | Zeal | dunno about engineers though.. |
| 00:53.28 | Kirkburn|afk | I like the engineers one |
| 00:53.30 | Zeal | implies alot of mathmatics etc :p |
| 00:53.43 | Kirkburn|afk | Engineers design, calculate (code?), etc |
| 00:53.49 | Kirkburn|afk | <-- Civil Engineer |
| 00:53.58 | Zeal | mhm |
| 00:54.06 | Zeal | which doesn't seem approriate for cats :P |
| 00:54.22 | dotted | for for template guys |
| 00:54.24 | Kirkburn|afk | (architects, excellent name) |
| 00:54.25 | dotted | *but |
| 00:54.31 | Zeal | i was going off the idea the cat lays out a map, a structure, a guide for where everything is and how it interacts. |
| 00:54.37 | dotted | teplate guys are coding sort of |
| 00:54.50 | Kirkburn|afk | Oh, ah, yeah, I didn't read what you were applying them to :P |
| 00:55.21 | Zeal | you could switch it around i guess, but tbh i think architects goes so well for template team now :P |
| 00:55.51 | Zeal | hm.. |
| 00:56.20 | dotted | Crafters Union :P? |
| 00:56.33 | Zeal | hm.. ok screw it, i will swap them :P |
| 00:56.57 | Kirkburn|afk | Going to minimise this window, distracting and I'm not reading it enough to comment properly |
| 00:57.06 | dotted | can always be changed again |
| 00:57.08 | Zeal | rofl, kk |
| 00:57.09 | Zeal | gl hf |
| 00:57.27 | Kirkburn|afk | Underbog at 67 :P |
| 00:57.47 | dotted | only 67 :/? |
| 00:58.08 | dotted | ppl serious needs to get rid of their lives and play more wow |
| 00:58.17 | Zeal | Adys, http://www.wowwiki.com/User:Zeal/Sandbox/Groups your toughts? |
| 00:58.22 | Kirkburn|afk | lol |
| 00:58.36 | Adys | Egineers? |
| 00:58.43 | Zeal | wtf.. lol |
| 00:58.56 | Kirkburn|afk | (note http://www.wowwiki.com/WoWWiki:Community_teams/Dev is my current version) |
| 00:59.09 | Adys | yank System Operators until we get more than Rustak, Sancus and Fandyllic eventually |
| 00:59.23 | Adys | teams should be accessible to everyone basically |
| 00:59.31 | Kirkburn|afk | Admins are sysops, needs a different name, too :P |
| 00:59.36 | Adys | Admins shouldnt be there either imo |
| 00:59.51 | Adys | but you can leave it with a reference |
| 01:00.00 | Kirkburn|afk | Yeah, that's what I'd suggest |
| 01:00.12 | Adys | besides, we definetly dont need a namespace Group: imho |
| 01:00.18 | Adys | besides, sounds really fine |
| 01:00.29 | Zeal | grr.. |
| 01:00.37 | Zeal | group: stays |
| 01:00.47 | Adys | why? :P |
| 01:00.55 | Adys | replace it by WoWWiki: imo |
| 01:01.12 | Adys | WoWWiki:Groups/Bookkeepers eventually |
| 01:01.12 | Kirkburn|afk | WoWWiki is the currently used (real!) namespace |
| 01:01.17 | Zeal | admins stay, they need to be documented. and unless you come up with a better name (because system operators is accurate and valid, it's the wiki thats wrong), they're staying called that. |
| 01:01.45 | Adys | yes but differenciate sysops and sysadmins then |
| 01:01.52 | Adys | you call sysadmins System Operators |
| 01:01.55 | Kirkburn|afk | *sigh* |
| 01:02.02 | Adys | lol |
| 01:02.03 | Kirkburn|afk | Zeal, just go with the wiki for once, please? :) |
| 01:02.06 | Zeal | admin < operator |
| 01:02.09 | Zeal | lol |
| 01:02.14 | Zeal | get better names please? :P |
| 01:02.36 | Adys | zeal, Kirkburn/Mikk/myself etc are Sysops, called in the wiki "Administrators" |
| 01:02.43 | Adys | Fandyllic is the only Sysadmin |
| 01:02.48 | Adys | and rustak technically |
| 01:03.06 | Kirkburn|afk | Bureaucrat is the wiki name |
| 01:03.15 | Adys | hrm aye |
| 01:03.18 | Adys | aaaaanyways doesnt really matter |
| 01:03.22 | Kirkburn|afk | Zeal, use Bureaucrat instead |
| 01:03.45 | dotted | lol |
| 01:03.45 | Adys | WoWWiki:Groupname OR WoWWiki:Groups/Groupname in my opinion |
| 01:03.59 | dotted | WoWWiki:Groups/Groupname <- gets my vote |
| 01:04.01 | Zeal | anyways.. as to group namespace. Why it isn't there by default, i don't know. A Wiki is community minded, it should allow for users to create their own groups, along side official groups, associate themselves to groups, assocaite groups to projects/task and associate groups to other groups. without a namespace, this isn't easily and logically possible. |
| 01:04.23 | Adys | why a namespace for like 5-10 pages zeal? |
| 01:04.37 | Zeal | because it could grow to any amount |
| 01:04.46 | Adys | well then we could start to use it |
| 01:04.50 | Zeal | that's liek saying why should users have a namespace |
| 01:05.03 | Zeal | and in the sense of wikipedia, why have namespaces period >_> |
| 01:05.18 | Adys | but until then we dont have any need, and its not like we can get 150 new teams in 2 days |
| 01:06.36 | Zeal | why put in place a system that prevents user groups and makes groups harder to display and document, just because right now we don't have them. that's like me building a store, putting up one shelf, because i know i currently only have one product.. |
| 01:07.07 | Adys | (why building a store if you have only one product?) |
| 01:07.21 | Adys | got my point? :P |
| 01:07.32 | Adys | WoWWiki:Groups/Groupname makes it very easy to display |
| 01:08.00 | Adys | and for regularity it would prob get my vote too |
| 01:08.05 | Zeal | or to put it in a mroe web-based context, not using a database on my site, but isntead adding things manually because i don't have enough entires for the db yet... |
| 01:08.21 | Zeal | adys, you already built the store, so fill it with shelves.. |
| 01:08.34 | Adys | lol |
| 01:08.42 | Adys | forget that zeal, but just dont be complicated etc |
| 01:08.58 | Adys | use categories for little stuff |
| 01:09.06 | Adys | and namespaces for really really big stuff |
| 01:09.13 | Zeal | it's not complicated though, it's planning and preapring for the future. it's very logical and sensiable. |
| 01:09.27 | Adys | the point zeal |
| 01:09.40 | Adys | is we cant grow to 100+ communities in no time |
| 01:09.44 | Adys | teams* |
| 01:09.59 | Adys | and even if we get say 100 teams |
| 01:10.01 | Zeal | we can grow to that over time. |
| 01:10.18 | Adys | it would still be, at least in my opinion, too few to get a namespace |
| 01:10.30 | Adys | now, lets just be realistic |
| 01:10.43 | Adys | over 2 years the wiki got about 8 teams I think |
| 01:10.51 | Adys | and now we are revamping it, we will get even less |
| 01:11.23 | Zeal | i am. and your argument of numbers is moot if you want me to be realistic. namespaces should be determined by type of data/content. |
| 01:11.45 | Zeal | irregardless of numbers or disambig needs. |
| 01:11.53 | Adys | WoWWiki namespace fits perfectly, thats the thing |
| 01:11.59 | Zeal | categories however, you are correct. |
| 01:12.06 | Zeal | it doesn't though |
| 01:12.11 | Adys | why oO |
| 01:12.21 | Adys | its purely and entirely related to wowwiki |
| 01:12.33 | Zeal | WoWWiki is already got god awful navigation and stupid article naming system |
| 01:12.33 | Adys | and has nothing to do outside of wowwiki editing |
| 01:12.42 | Zeal | it's near impossible to find pages in that namespace. |
| 01:13.04 | Adys | thats because we dont create summary pages etc |
| 01:13.11 | Adys | WoWWiki:Groups as main page |
| 01:13.19 | Adys | WoWWiki:Groups/Bookkeepers etc |
| 01:13.23 | Zeal | does users, or the oddly desired, help. |
| 01:13.24 | Adys | as subpages |
| 01:13.26 | Zeal | *neither |
| 01:14.05 | Zeal | that's not a split article, that's generational article naming, something i'm strichtly opposed to. |
| 01:14.22 | Zeal | *strictly |
| 01:14.37 | Zeal | and is a gripe i have with that namespace. |
| 01:14.51 | Adys | fine by me, you want a vote? be honest, how many people feel there is any need into a group: namespace? |
| 01:15.14 | Adys | everyone is free to think and do whatever they want as long as they go with the majority |
| 01:15.29 | Adys | so go ahead and make a vote. If Group: wins, I will be really impressed |
| 01:15.30 | Zeal | because groups, among other things, have never been considered the way i consider them. |
| 01:16.13 | Zeal | it's not a question of need now, it's a question of improving what exists for the future. |
| 01:16.22 | Zeal | so ofc, people will vote against it. |
| 01:16.33 | Adys | then do it in the future |
| 01:16.49 | Adys | if I go into a store with 10 shelves and only 1 product I'll laugh |
| 01:16.50 | Zeal | and create more work now? sure.. |
| 01:17.11 | Zeal | and they'd laugh because they've made good investment. |
| 01:17.34 | Adys | zeal i understand your point and i would agree with you |
| 01:17.37 | Adys | but the thing is |
| 01:17.50 | Adys | over 2 years we got 8 communities and are getting less now |
| 01:17.51 | Zeal | and by doing it now, when it was easier, they've prevented disruption for their customers, and loss of money in the process. |
| 01:18.08 | Zeal | those are merely official teams adys |
| 01:18.09 | Adys | its NOT something that will grow up easily |
| 01:18.22 | Zeal | did that point not coem across? :s |
| 01:18.48 | Zeal | *come |
| 01:19.10 | Zeal | ffs, i'm supposed to be cooking.. |
| 01:19.23 | Adys | zeal, nevermind. Go do a vote if you want, but you said it yourself people will vote against it |
| 01:19.31 | Adys | and the point of this is going with the majority |
| 01:19.51 | Adys | and not going with what the minority wants, even if its better in a very small possibility |
| 01:19.58 | Zeal | i've never gone with the majority, and i've never had the majority side with me. i expect no different now. |
| 01:20.18 | Adys | yes zeal but dont expect your changes to make in until they are needed then |
| 01:20.37 | Adys | when we will have real communities and the real possibility to expand them |
| 01:20.44 | Adys | THEN we will make a group: namespace probably |
| 01:20.58 | Zeal | because the majority of the majority, is 1) misinformed 2) uninformed 3) stupid. That why democracy fails, and always will. |
| 01:21.03 | dotted | http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert20071832660125.gif |
| 01:21.04 | Adys | but that would need ANOTHER revamp, and we're not there yet |
| 01:21.24 | Adys | and lol dotted |
| 01:21.53 | Zeal | adys, if we don't do it, there never will be a need for it. It's offering a new feature to the wiki that isn't currently easily available. |
| 01:22.16 | Adys | creating communities have nothing to do with having a namespace for it |
| 01:22.28 | Adys | theres never been the need to create an item: namespace to put new item articles up |
| 01:22.34 | Zeal | rofl dotted |
| 01:22.55 | Zeal | no? there always was a need for that. |
| 01:23.11 | Adys | not to create new articles |
| 01:23.15 | Adys | you can just create them |
| 01:23.15 | Zeal | and now we're suffering the price. |
| 01:23.20 | Zeal | *paying the |
| 01:23.30 | Adys | and? thats cool |
| 01:23.34 | dotted | i can see the sence in an item namespace, not the group one |
| 01:23.37 | Adys | I mean, the point of a wiki is having stuff to do |
| 01:23.37 | Zeal | no.. it's not >_>; |
| 01:23.53 | Adys | back when the wiki was small |
| 01:24.03 | Adys | who'd have expected to be so many item articles up? |
| 01:24.14 | Adys | it all started with the legendary or really rare items and stuff |
| 01:24.27 | Adys | then theres been the addition of the tooltip, of raid loot |
| 01:24.28 | Adys | etc etc etc |
| 01:24.43 | Zeal | no, the point of the wiki, is adding content and presenting in an apropriate manner. the methods to do that should have always been in place, doing thme now is detrimental to the point of the wiki. |
| 01:25.28 | Adys | well Ill put it a way a bit more blunt this time |
| 01:25.38 | Adys | thats not my problem, if the majority isnt with it it goes the other way |
| 01:25.54 | Adys | and its not always good |
| 01:26.03 | Adys | but it always goes like that |
| 01:26.50 | Zeal | hence why, in this wonderfully virtual world, i've said i'd go elsewhere and do it my way. |
| 01:27.05 | Adys | else we would have to let people who just come from nowhere do huge changes to the wiki that are not all good |
| 01:27.19 | Adys | we <cant> let that happen else it gets a mess |
| 01:27.46 | *** part/#wowwiki Mr_Rabies2 (i=catbutts@adsl-066-156-082-132.sip.asm.bellsouth.net) |
| 01:28.07 | Adys | so you dont want to go with the majority? thats fine, then put up your reasons why you do it another way, why its better like this like that etc |
| 01:28.10 | Gryphen | im takin my ball and goin home |
| 01:28.10 | Adys | and then put up a vote |
| 01:28.13 | Gryphen | love that lol |
| 01:29.31 | Zeal | nope. simply leave everything up to the admins, people can propose all they want, and the admins listen, but it's still up to them. if enough people aren't happy, the admins will surely know about it in good time, and consider change again. |
| 01:29.31 | Zeal | nah Gryphen, can still play ball together ;) |
| 01:30.07 | Zeal | i just decided to build my own court/field/pitch :P |
| 01:30.22 | *** join/#wowwiki dok3Dal (n=dok@AStrasbourg-251-1-98-138.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 01:30.38 | Adys | thats totally fine and I have no problems with it |
| 01:30.44 | Adys | but dont expect much |
| 01:30.53 | Gryphen | as annoying you find other peoples unbending ways, you dont view that of yourself? |
| 01:32.01 | Zeal | Gryphen, someone who can make me rethink my point of view gets a great, great, deal of respect from me. I does happen, it has happened, and i do make plenty of mistakes. |
| 01:32.12 | Zeal | *it does |
| 01:33.26 | dotted | http://www.wowwiki.com/WoWWiki:Village_pump#io_wanna_play_the_game :/ |
| 01:33.44 | Zeal | my arrogance and stubborness is there, i feel, for good reason. but there is plenty i don't know, plenty that know better than me. |
| 01:34.30 | Zeal | so i'm always willing to listen to other's points of view, to see if they can teach me something i never knew or did not consider, to better my own view and self. |
| 01:37.19 | Zeal | for those reasons, baggins has earnt respect from me, desptie a mishap at one point :P I suspect, at somepoint kirkburn has too, though i forget why. :s |
| 01:37.56 | Zeal | anyways.. must go cook, then gunna see what films are on tv. bbl |
| 01:42.21 | zeal | http://kevan.org/johari?name=ZealVurte ;) |
| 01:43.09 | Adys | haha |
| 01:46.08 | Adys | people think you're QUIET?! |
| 01:46.46 | zeal | online, certainly not. but in RL, yes. |
| 01:47.00 | Adys | that doesnt surprise me somehow^^ |
| 01:47.23 | Adys | anyways I was limited by 5-6 but id have chosen 4-5 more aswell tbh |
| 01:50.10 | zeal | ofc, the ones i get to choose are limited too |
| 01:50.17 | zeal | many in my "blind spot" i would have said. |
| 01:50.57 | zeal | nervous? hehe |
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| 02:38.47 | *** mode/#wowwiki [+o Tekkub] by ChanServ |
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| 03:09.36 | voidvector | hob here? |
| 03:47.33 | zeal | bah, no talk im my absence? :( |
| 04:05.02 | zeal | ok, well sleep then |
| 04:05.11 | Adys | gn zeal |
| 04:05.11 | zeal | nn all |
| 04:07.05 | voidvector | night |
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| 06:12.47 | Kirkburn|afk | That was the most wtf instance run I've ever done |
| 06:13.02 | Kaso | which is that |
| 06:13.09 | Kirkburn|afk | Mana-Tombs |
| 06:13.34 | Kaso | i hate it |
| 06:13.42 | Kirkburn|afk | "WTF" because for 3 members of the group I really started to wonder about their sanity |
| 06:13.55 | Kaso | do go on |
| 06:13.56 | Kirkburn|afk | Repeatedly saying GO got nothing |
| 06:14.36 | Kirkburn|afk | Not taking the mobs off the healer (my housemate) |
| 06:14.50 | Kirkburn|afk | Waiting 30 minutes for a guy to go from the meeting stone OUTSIDE to the entrance |
| 06:15.14 | Kirkburn|afk | People tanking FEARING mobs inside mob filled rooms |
| 06:15.35 | Kirkburn|afk | Despite my repeated shouts of BACK! BACK! JESUS CHRIST THAT'S FORWARDS, NOT BACK! |
| 06:15.52 | Kaso | haha |
| 06:15.59 | Kirkburn|afk | Didn't help that my housemate was incapable of healing my pet |
| 06:16.48 | Kaso | well to be fair if he was used to raid healing before tbc, you do sorta forget that pets exist. |
| 06:16.49 | Kirkburn|afk | "Kill order: Skull-Cross-Circle" ... "Which one should I attack?" |
| 06:16.59 | Kirkburn|afk | Standing in front of Shaffar ... "where's Shaffar?" |
| 06:17.47 | Kirkburn|afk | *Sigh*, it might have taken goddamn years, but we got there in the end |
| 06:18.09 | Kirkburn|afk | The run with the same group in Underbog beforehand went v well though |
| 06:18.42 | Kirkburn|afk | It was a caster drop wonderland :) New robe and new gloves |
| 06:18.44 | sancus | they wouldn't get past the first pull in a heroic |
| 06:18.53 | Kirkburn|afk | sancus, I don't doubt that |
| 06:19.10 | sancus | the post on R&D whining that romeo and juliet are too hard is gold |
| 06:19.22 | Kirkburn|afk | Half the time I had my pet trying to be the one taking aggro off the healer :/ |
| 06:19.42 | Kirkburn|afk | Enlighten me :) |
| 06:21.46 | sancus | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=73339895&sid=1&pageNo=1 |
| 06:23.18 | sancus | complaining that 4 dps can't interrupt juliet is funny |
| 06:27.05 | *** join/#wowwiki amro (n=amro@82.101.184.172) |
| 06:27.49 | Kirkburn|afk | "Have you tried poisoning Romulo? How about excessive stabbing of Julianne? Is anyone in your party named Tybalt or Mercutio? Have you read the play to glean any clues from it?" |
| 06:33.48 | Kirkburn|afk | Bed! |
| 06:33.50 | Kirkburn|afk | G'night |
| 06:33.56 | Kirkburn|afk | (it's only 6:30am) |
| 06:49.22 | *** join/#wowwiki bleetah (n=Bleeter@thesheepdip.bleeter.org) |
| 06:49.29 | bleetah | Kirkburn|afk made me do it |
| 06:49.55 | Kirkburn|afk | He sure did. |
| 06:49.59 | Kirkburn|afk | With an iron rod, too. |
| 06:50.12 | Kirkburn|afk | bleetah's jacksie will never be the same ... |
| 06:50.56 | bleetah | oooh and it makes me wonder ... www.myspace.com/jacksie |
| 06:51.04 | bleetah | (no, I didn't look, just the URL amused me) |
| 06:51.08 | Kirkburn|afk | lol |
| 06:51.31 | Kirkburn|afk | The first line: "Come ride the Chocolate Channel!" |
| 06:51.57 | Kirkburn|afk | Which worries me as I'm not sure whether that's intentional? |
| 07:11.58 | Adys | Something I wonder |
| 07:12.12 | Adys | the #wowwiki and #wowi-lounge channels contain pretty much the same people |
| 07:12.17 | Adys | but they never talk here :P |
| 07:12.52 | bleetah | balls |
| 07:12.54 | bleetah | i just got here |
| 07:12.57 | bleetah | gimme a break :P |
| 07:13.11 | Adys | Infobot, give bleetah a break |
| 07:13.12 | infobot | ACTION gives a break to bleetah |
| 07:13.15 | amro | there are 71 more people in #wowi-lounge |
| 07:13.22 | Adys | details |
| 07:13.23 | amro | infobot, give me a cookie |
| 07:13.24 | infobot | ACTION gives amro a home-baked peanut butter cookie to cheer him up. |
| 07:13.37 | amro | dammit, i hate peanut butter, but thanks anywa |
| 07:14.03 | Adys | infobot, amro is not really fond of peanut butter - could you get him better cookies? |
| 07:14.05 | infobot | Adys: okay |
| 07:14.58 | amro | its okay, I have my own stash |
| 07:15.08 | amro | chocolate-filled cookies. yummy |
| 07:15.24 | Adys | ~amro |
| 07:15.25 | infobot | [amro] not really fond of peanut butter - could you get him better cookies? |
| 07:15.33 | Adys | lol.. |
| 07:15.37 | Adys | whatever |
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| 07:23.44 | bleetah | rhubarb rhubarb rhubarb rhubarb rhubarb |
| 07:24.26 | *** kick/#wowwiki [bleetah!n=none@off.net] by sancus (rhubarb is unsupported) |
| 07:24.51 | amro | =P |
| 07:24.53 | *** join/#wowwiki bleetah (n=Bleeter@thesheepdip.bleeter.org) |
| 07:24.59 | bleetah | porridge porridge porridge porridge |
| 07:25.22 | amro | ew porridge |
| 07:25.24 | Kirkburn|afk | I approve of porridge |
| 07:25.28 | amro | kick please. =P |
| 07:25.35 | *** kick/#wowwiki [amro!n=Kirkburn@82-32-40-219.cable.ubr06.azte.blueyonder.co.uk] by Kirkburn|afk (Kirkburn|afk) |
| 07:25.45 | *** join/#wowwiki amro (n=amro@82.101.184.172) |
| 07:25.46 | Kirkburn|afk | But only if poured over heads |
| 07:25.54 | amro | not me you genius =P |
| 07:26.00 | sancus | you DID ask for it |
| 07:26.27 | amro | kek |
| 07:27.12 | Kirkburn|afk | It looked so beguiling, I saved it for later |
| 07:29.46 | Kirkburn|afk | K, right really off now |
| 07:29.51 | Kirkburn|afk | Byee |
| 07:30.00 | *** kick/#wowwiki [Kirkburn|afk!n=Kirkburn@82-32-40-219.cable.ubr06.azte.blueyonder.co.uk] by Kirkburn|afk (Kirkburn|afk) |
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| 08:35.16 | Adys | infobot, wake fin up |
| 08:35.19 | infobot | ACTION throws a barrel-full of ice water on fin up and shouts "GOOD MORNING!!!!" |
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| 13:38.04 | Trae | up to L68 |
| 13:38.35 | Trae | about 700xp needed for 69. not going to happen today heh |
| 13:38.43 | Trae | 700kxp |
| 13:38.43 | Trae | lol |
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| 17:50.17 | Andr31 | Hello |
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| 18:18.01 | Zeal | lo all |
| 18:22.49 | amro | hi |
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| 18:26.14 | Zeal | hey adys |
| 18:26.21 | Adys | hullo |
| 18:26.22 | Zeal | Tekkub, dok3Dal, sort your net out :P |
| 18:26.46 | Tekkub | wifi at work, it's shit |
| 18:26.52 | Tekkub | randomly drops out |
| 18:27.08 | Zeal | lol kk |
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| 18:39.55 | Zeal | hm.. slow night :( |
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| 22:12.27 | Adys | Tusva! <3 |
| 22:12.34 | Adys | Just noticed :) |
| 22:12.58 | Adys | and where the heck is kirkburn :/ |
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| 22:27.04 | Tusva | o/ |
| 22:30.20 | Adys | ! |
| 22:54.52 | Zeal | indeed |
| 22:54.57 | Zeal | and hey Tusva |
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| 23:25.30 | sloth | why are some of the links to the UI pages not working? |
| 23:25.52 | sloth | off the front page for example: http://www.wowwiki.com/Events_%28API%29 |
| 23:26.04 | sloth | oh now it works |
| 23:26.25 | sloth | sometimes i'm getting redirected back to the main page |
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| 23:32.11 | Zeal | it's nothing wrong with the links sloth. when there is an error, it displays a messed up version of the main page instead. |
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| 23:46.02 | Zeal | hm.. gunna play wow, this is the slowest day to date :( |
