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| 03:53.51 | eightyeight | reading the silmarillion |
| 03:53.56 | eightyeight | this is a tough read |
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| 15:54.39 | harleypig | Does anyone know of study software that works on linux or has a web app and is also available via mobile app that allows for highlighting of text, cross-referencing between multiple sources and annotating sections of text with arbitrary content? |
| 16:00.19 | lattera | kinda like Office OneNote or whatever it's called? |
| 16:00.54 | lattera | I usually just set up a local wiki |
| 16:04.30 | harleypig | No, it needs to include existing text. I'm looking to use it mainly for scripture study, but I find that I tend to range far afield, so I don't want something that is limited to a specific type of book(s) like The Sword Project. |
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| 16:05.01 | harleypig | WordCruncher looks almost perfect, but it won't run on wine. |
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| 16:18.21 | programmerq | morning |
| 16:27.14 | wukong | I've never heard of study software |
| 16:28.07 | wukong | crawls back underneath rock |
| 16:28.32 | Big_G | harleypig, Why would it need to work in wine if it is Linux compatible? |
| 16:28.59 | harleypig | ? WordCruncher is not linux compatible. |
| 16:29.24 | Big_G | Oh, I thought you said that it was. Never used it myself |
| 16:29.34 | harleypig | It just looks like it's got the attributes I need. |
| 16:29.50 | Big_G | harleypig, Is it solely for scripture stuff? |
| 16:44.41 | harleypig | Mainly, but I also want to include other texts. Not just commentaries, dictionaries and topical guides, but arbitrary texts. |
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| 17:11.00 | programmerq | welp! I'm giving another conference talk! |
| 17:11.09 | programmerq | well, it's the same on I gave last time, just at bsidesslc |
| 17:11.23 | programmerq | it's about testing nginx config files with automated testing tools. |
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| 18:10.45 | lattera | programmerq: when/where? |
| 18:11.24 | programmerq | lattera: BsidesSLC on 21 Mar at 2:00pm |
| 18:11.30 | lattera | nice |
| 18:15.44 | T4rku5 | https://www.bsidesslc.org/pages/schedule |
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| 18:58.11 | levi1 | Ugh, the thought of nginx config files makes me shudder. |
| 18:59.36 | levi | eightyeight: Later parts of it get easier. Or maybe I just got used to it. |
| 19:00.02 | levi | eightyeight: Took me many tries before I got to the point where I actually enjoyed it and made it all the way through. |
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| 19:19.07 | Big_G | Are you all devs? |
| 19:20.39 | jima | i think there are some sysadmins in here, too (other than just me) |
| 19:20.58 | harleypig | it depends on the time of day |
| 19:21.16 | harleypig | also, some of us do, or have done, both |
| 19:21.30 | jima | unfortunately so ;-) |
| 19:21.33 | Big_G | Cool. I'm just getting my start in the career of an SDE |
| 19:21.42 | harleypig | sde? |
| 19:21.42 | Migs | No, but we're all raging geeks. |
| 19:21.50 | harleypig | well, raging anyway |
| 19:22.00 | Big_G | Software Development Engineer |
| 19:22.21 | Big_G | geeks are a subset of raging |
| 19:22.36 | harleypig | Ah. Where are you getting your start? |
| 19:22.44 | Migs | I've never heard the term SDE before |
| 19:23.00 | Big_G | Migs, Really? I've almost always heard SDE and SDET |
| 19:23.09 | jima | Big_G: you can't drop an acronym like that and expect it to mean anything, i used to be a Senior Delivery Engineer :-P |
| 19:23.23 | Big_G | harleypig, I'm moving to Seattle to work for a retailer |
| 19:23.36 | Big_G | jima, Fair enough. I just thought it was common |
| 19:23.38 | Migs | now wtf is a SDET? |
| 19:23.40 | jima | nope |
| 19:23.55 | Big_G | Migs, SDE in Test |
| 19:24.32 | jima | Big_G: here's a comic about job title standards: http://xkcd.com/927/ |
| 19:24.38 | harleypig | Big_G: *cough*Amazon*cough* |
| 19:25.03 | Big_G | harleypig, *Chough No chance in hell *cough* |
| 19:25.10 | jima | harleypig: utah does lose a fair number of people to them, yep |
| 19:25.21 | harleypig | heh |
| 19:25.39 | jima | my US subsidiary lost a security guy to amazon |
| 19:25.47 | Big_G | They don't exactly have the best rep |
| 19:25.55 | Migs | more jobs for the rest of us who stick around Utah |
| 19:26.05 | jima | Big_G: with...who? |
| 19:26.17 | levi | harleypig: You get a job with Amazon? |
| 19:26.35 | harleypig | ? huh? Not if I can help it. |
| 19:26.37 | Big_G | jima, At least from what I've heard, most people hate working for Amazon. They just get paid boatloads to do it |
| 19:26.48 | jima | levi: i think he was poking fun at the vague "moving to Seattle to work for a retailer" |
| 19:26.55 | levi | Oh, I see the context now. :) |
| 19:27.00 | Big_G | harleypig, What work do you do then? |
| 19:27.19 | Big_G | Don't worry. I'm working for a retailer with standards |
| 19:27.22 | jima | Big_G: i haven't heard a peep from either of the people i know, i should ask them |
| 19:27.28 | levi | I got a ping from an Amazon recruiter recently. |
| 19:27.33 | jima | one of them is in security, the other is some sort of dev i think |
| 19:27.47 | Big_G | They're a big company so mileage varies but that is the general sentiment. Turnover is high |
| 19:27.54 | jima | the security guy floated an opportunity my way |
| 19:28.16 | jima | seattle would suck for my wife's health, though, so... *shrug* |
| 19:28.17 | Big_G | I'd take it just to move to Seattle and find other work |
| 19:29.51 | spangborn | Yuck @ Amazon |
| 19:30.59 | Big_G | spangborn, I'm with ya |
| 19:31.37 | spangborn | A company that seems content to lose boatloads of money for some reason, too. |
| 19:32.01 | jima | the next google? dunno. |
| 19:32.07 | jima | in many senses of the analogy |
| 19:32.34 | spangborn | Except they're doing it areas where other companies have already succeeded and somehow made a profit. |
| 19:33.01 | spangborn | Maybe there's something to streamlining it, but still. |
| 19:34.43 | Big_G | What are the big companies in Utah for dev? |
| 19:45.23 | harleypig | Big_G: I work for a company called Verio. We build vps' and provide a hosting service. |
| 19:45.52 | Big_G | harleypig, Sounds like fun |
| 19:46.01 | harleypig | It has its moments. :] |
| 19:47.50 | eightyeight | levi: I'm about half way through, and it iszgetting a touch better |
| 19:48.26 | eightyeight | s/iszgetting/is getting/ |
| 19:50.29 | levi | eightyeight: Got to the bit about Turin Turambar yet? |
| 19:52.00 | eightyeight | no. I just finished reading about the realm of beleriand and the noldor in beleriand |
| 19:52.44 | levi | Kind of puts them in a different light than you see in tLotR, right? |
| 19:53.15 | eightyeight | yeah. definitely. I want to reread them now, and see what new thing I pick up |
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| 19:54.05 | levi | Also gives you a sense for just how *old* some of the elves in tLotR are. |
| 19:54.48 | eightyeight | i've been keeping the LOTR wiki up on my phone as i read, so when i read about some elf name that starts with an 'f', i can look it up in the wiki, and remind myself of their family tree |
| 19:55.06 | eightyeight | which, imo, has been the hardest thing about reading the silmarillion, is keeping all of the names straight |
| 19:56.04 | eightyeight | i think it may take me a couple more reads to fully understand where galadriel fits in the noldorian lineage, how the wood elves fit in, etc |
| 19:57.20 | levi | You won't find Galadriel herself in the Silmarillion, IIRC. But it describes a lot of her immediate family. |
| 19:58.39 | eightyeight | she's there |
| 19:58.53 | eightyeight | quite a bit, actually |
| 19:59.17 | eightyeight | as is elrond |
| 20:00.19 | eightyeight | she's the youngest and only daughter of finarfin, and she has conversations with Melian |
| 20:00.44 | levi | From what I recall, she was invented specifically for tLotR, so he would have (or perhaps Christopher) added her into the context of the older material afterward. |
| 20:01.38 | eightyeight | she's even given one of teh rings of power in the 2nd age, which afaik, is portrayed towards the end of the book |
| 20:02.55 | levi | Right, I'm just saying that she was worked into the overall scheme of things while tLotR was being developed, while quite a lot of the tales of Beleriand are older. |
| 20:03.35 | eightyeight | she doesn't have a big role in the silmarillion story, from what i've read up to now |
| 20:03.48 | eightyeight | but her birth was mentioned, as well as describing her beauty |
| 20:03.59 | eightyeight | and there is dialogue from her to others |
| 20:04.22 | eightyeight | Feanor, at least up to this point, has been the prominent elf in the book |
| 20:06.28 | levi | Christopher Tolkien had a somewhat heavy editorial hand in the published Silmarillion, and was assisted in the task by Guy Gavriel Kay, who is a historical fantasy author now. |
| 20:10.10 | eightyeight | what i found interesting, is how biblical the tale is |
| 20:10.20 | eightyeight | the first part of the story reads very much like Genisis in the bible |
| 20:10.26 | levi | Yup. |
| 20:10.50 | eightyeight | and continually, through the narrative, there is _constant_ christian symbology and allegories |
| 20:11.15 | eightyeight | it's clear from reading the text, that tolkien was an outspoken christian |
| 20:16.33 | levi | He was not fond of direct Christian allegory, such as C.S. Lewis was fond of writing, but he certainly incorporated Christian symbology and less direct allegory; I'd call it more 'thematic reference' than true allegory. |
| 20:18.51 | eightyeight | i'm not familiar enough with CS Lewis to know, but i'm guessing the subconcious christian was very much at work when tolkien was writing |
| 20:19.14 | eightyeight | as much as he tried to mask it, it came out in his story telling anyway |
| 20:20.39 | eightyeight | although, i do have 'the great divorce' which is next on the reading list |
| 20:20.46 | levi | He wasn't trying to mask it; he was definitely explicitly influenced by his Christianity. It shows in his letters about his work. But he disliked direct allegory such as in the Chronicles of Narnia where the character of Aslan is meant to directly stand for Jesus. |
| 20:20.59 | eightyeight | ah. fair |
| 20:23.32 | levi | Tolkien and Lewis were good friends at Oxford, and Tolkien's discussions with him helped him convert to theism and later to Christianity. |
| 20:23.54 | levi | Helped Lewis convert, in case that wasn't clear. |
| 20:24.33 | eightyeight | i was just reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._S._Lewis#Conversion_to_Christianity where it mentions tolkien as an influence |
| 20:25.30 | levi | As Lewis was an avowed skeptic at the time, it speaks to Tolkien's commitment to Christianity that he was able to influence him. |
| 20:28.30 | levi | Apparently Lewis didn't think Aslan was strictly allegorical either. And I expect he and Tolkien have a bit of a better grasp of what is and isn't allegory than I do. |
| 20:29.42 | eightyeight | as I've been reading the Silmarillion, it's clear who the fallen angel is, but less clear the Jesus would be |
| 20:31.39 | levi | Well, there isn't one. But you can probably find aspects of Jesus in various characters. |
| 20:32.10 | eightyeight | that's the conclusion I came to as well |
| 20:32.46 | eightyeight | also, I found it interesting that the dwarves were created before The Firstborn of Iluvatar |
| 20:33.10 | eightyeight | I've been trying to pull meaning out of that, but have been unsuccessful |
| 20:33.12 | eightyeight | heh |
| 20:33.55 | levi | I think if the only lens you bring to bear is Christianity, you'll miss some of the point of the exercise. It surely wasn't his only influence. |
| 20:34.49 | eightyeight | well, I'm reading it as it is |
| 20:34.57 | levi | I'm curious what meaning you'll see in the story of Turin. :) |
| 20:35.41 | eightyeight | I've just noticed things here and there, and when I'm not reading, I think about them, and try to make sense of them, or draw arcs with tLotR |
| 20:35.43 | eightyeight | etc |
| 20:36.08 | eightyeight | I'll look forward to it |
| 20:37.01 | eightyeight | I want to learn of the lineage of Legolas also |
| 20:37.15 | eightyeight | don't know why, but I'm hoping he's mentioned |
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| 20:42.37 | eightyeight | oh, and gandalf, saruman, and radagast, knowing that they are maiar |
| 20:43.01 | eightyeight | and I didn't know the balrogs were maiar. that blew me away |
| 20:43.50 | levi | Yeah, thus the face-off between Gandalf and the Balrog was more evenly-matched than it would appear. :) |
| 20:44.42 | eightyeight | yeah |
| 20:46.12 | levi | It's also interesting that Cirdan recognized that Gandalf was truly the wisest of the bunch and gave Narya to him, despite Saruman presenting himself as the leader and Gandalf acknowledging him as such. |
| 20:46.35 | eightyeight | oh, and sauron is also maiar |
| 20:47.01 | levi | Yeah, he's not even the *big* bad guy. |
| 20:49.51 | levi | The bit about Numenor is pretty interesting. Especially the lineage of their first king. |
| 20:54.24 | eightyeight | I haven't read much about the men. I'm guessing it's coming pretty quickly though |
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| 22:45.37 | Big_G | Who is this emi person I've heard about? |
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