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| 00:23.06 | Sargun_Screen | maquis: elaborate |
| 00:23.59 | maquis | Sargun_Screen: smelly people, people falling onto me while they're asleep, etc... |
| 00:24.35 | maquis | ok... i've got to ditch... i'm about ready to keel over here, and need to get home |
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| 04:14.45 | tensai | ~rlart |
| 04:14.46 | ibot | frags whiteinge with his BFG9000 |
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| 15:37.59 | sjansen | ~rlart |
| 15:38.00 | ibot | executes killall -KILL Heartsbane |
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| 17:19.48 | Jayce^ | oooh, nice halloween costume idea: http://lwn.net/Articles/353981/ |
| 17:22.20 | goozbach | is that balmer? |
| 17:22.33 | Jayce^ | jeremy Allison playing ballmer |
| 17:22.43 | jlp_work | http://mashable.com/2009/09/23/party-like-microsoft/ <-- the remix is much better than the original |
| 17:23.25 | goozbach | ahh samba devl |
| 17:24.26 | Jayce^ | jlp_work: excellent editing |
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| 17:25.33 | jlp_work | I liked some of the comments, too: "A nerd, an active senior, a divorcee, and a random black guy walk into a bar..." |
| 17:28.02 | Sargun_Screen | Hi |
| 17:29.50 | rsimpkins | Jayce^: Were you looking for me a few days ago? Sorry. I have been on call. |
| 17:29.59 | Jayce^ | yeah |
| 17:48.06 | Sargun_Screen | is bored/tired |
| 17:49.31 | herlo | did everyone sign up for UTOSC 2009 yet? http://attend.utosc.com if you haven't: use OPEN as a promo code |
| 17:53.28 | Sargun_Screen | isn't going |
| 17:57.53 | Migs | what does the promo do? |
| 18:01.10 | Zelut | Migs: discount I assume |
| 18:02.53 | Migs | who's been to past UTOSC conferences? |
| 18:02.56 | Migs | Are they really awesome? |
| 18:03.04 | Migs | like, REALLY awesome? |
| 18:03.07 | Migs | is there free food? |
| 18:03.33 | Zelut | I've been three years running. They are worth attending for the price, yes. |
| 18:03.50 | Zelut | unlike OSCON which costs a damn fortune and was less awesome |
| 18:04.07 | Migs | what makes UTOSC so amazingly awesome? |
| 18:08.00 | Zelut | I've found the information/presentations more immediately useful. larger conferences i've been to are high-level, almost theoretical topics. |
| 18:11.24 | Migs | hmmm |
| 18:11.58 | Migs | oh snap, students and faculty get 50% off |
| 18:12.08 | Migs | I wonder if they'd give me 50% off, even though I'm not technically faculty |
| 18:12.12 | jlp_work | I always enjoyed the LISA conferences I attended, back when I was employed by someone who actually cared about my professional development |
| 18:13.25 | Migs | wow |
| 18:13.28 | Migs | a bunch of yall are presenting |
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| 18:53.36 | goozbach | migs or whoever it was who pointed me at notalwaysright, thank you |
| 18:53.38 | goozbach | it's funny |
| 18:53.43 | mulicheng | I need to write a lot of material down. I'm thinking of having and web and pdf version. Is docbook the way to go? Seems like a lot of projects are documented with that these days. |
| 18:54.22 | Migs | love that site |
| 18:54.31 | Migs | I love fmylife too |
| 18:54.32 | levi` | There are probably a zillion different ways to do that now. |
| 18:54.50 | Migs | and dontevenreply.com is a recent fave |
| 18:55.07 | goozbach | mulicheng: for ease of use I use markdown for my notes |
| 18:55.19 | goozbach | you can generate pdf or html from the source |
| 18:55.34 | goozbach | docbook is too verbose for simple note taking |
| 18:55.38 | levi | There's markdown, ReStructured Text, etc. |
| 18:55.45 | goozbach | restructured text is another one |
| 18:55.48 | Migs | hahaha http://notalwaysright.com/a-state-of-mindlessness/2501 |
| 18:56.43 | levi | mulicheng: Are there any features you're interested in besides html and pdf output? |
| 18:56.55 | mulicheng | Only that it looks nice I guess. |
| 18:57.24 | mulicheng | I'll need images/charts in addition to the text. I want the navigation to make sense in both html and pdf. |
| 18:57.37 | levi | What sort of stuff are you going to put in it? Do you want integration with a web app? With an editor? |
| 18:58.27 | mulicheng | yeah, it'll be online as part of project documentation, but will be part of a software download as well. |
| 18:58.54 | goozbach | mayhaps you just want a wiki |
| 18:59.00 | mulicheng | So I guess another feature is the ease of templating/stylizing the html. |
| 18:59.15 | goozbach | there's a wiki software which has dot integration... Can't think of the name offhand |
| 18:59.35 | mulicheng | I'll be the author though. Documentation will be committed as part of the project. |
| 18:59.44 | levi | If you like emacs, you might want to look at org-mode. |
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| 19:02.59 | mulicheng | Nobody piped up and said, "yeah, docbook is ok". Is that because nobody likes docbook or nobody has much of an opinion? |
| 19:03.08 | Migs | http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2002/04/afghan-girl/index-text |
| 19:04.18 | levi | I'm not a fan of doing SGML-style markup by hand. |
| 19:04.57 | mulicheng | I'm not opposed to a good editor for it. More concerned that the output is nice. |
| 19:05.07 | sjansen | Docbook is not fun. Every other option also has disadvantages. |
| 19:05.44 | sjansen | Unless you're willing to do heavy lifting, not markup based solution will give you anything more than mediocre results. |
| 19:06.21 | levi | Listen to sjansen, he does this stuff for a living. ;) |
| 19:06.22 | mulicheng | That's kind of what I'm thinking. I like python docs and all, but this needs to be slightly more professional looking. |
| 19:06.52 | goozbach | the docbook is what you want |
| 19:07.00 | goozbach | s/the/then/ |
| 19:07.07 | goozbach | or latex |
| 19:08.10 | mulicheng | I've done latex quite a bit for school in the past. I'd rather have something I didn't have to dig down into the dark abyss to change a style on. |
| 19:08.55 | sjansen | mulicheng: Everything sucks. Every. Thing. |
| 19:09.02 | mulicheng | i.e., latex worked great when the default book/article/whatever style was sufficient. When my department said, "here is the way _we_ want your document to look", that took me a long time to get right with latex. |
| 19:09.20 | mulicheng | sjansen: I was hoping someone would confirm my same suspicion :) |
| 19:09.34 | sjansen | There is no more certain path to madness than attempting to create a LaTeX style. |
| 19:10.24 | goozbach | sjansen is a living example of LaTeX madness |
| 19:10.29 | mulicheng | heh, I posted some LaTex tips on my blog after I finished my masters thesis. I get emails from USU students every semester now. |
| 19:10.49 | goozbach | heck he's even gone so far as to dive into straight TeX |
| 19:12.28 | sjansen | Blast! RHEL 5 doesn't include PolicyKit. :-( |
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| 19:16.42 | mulicheng | sjansen: do you have a favorite docbook editor? |
| 19:17.04 | mulicheng | I'm downloading lyx to see if it's any good. |
| 19:17.11 | goozbach | mulicheng: vim :) |
| 19:17.27 | mulicheng | uses vim for a _lot_ of stuff. |
| 19:18.51 | sjansen | I don't use Docbook, it didn't meet our needs. |
| 19:19.08 | mulicheng | ah, hence the LaTex comments. |
| 19:19.32 | sjansen | All of the existing Docbook styles were too bland, and the Docbook semantics didn't match ours. |
| 19:21.40 | mulicheng | So is creating a LaTex style less painful than creating a docbook style? |
| 19:22.28 | sjansen | No. |
| 19:22.33 | levi | sjansen: What's your current solution? |
| 19:23.07 | sjansen | A custom XML schema, with a custom transformation solution, that outputs ConTeXt. |
| 19:23.38 | sjansen | Unfortunately, ConTeXt is a moving target, so we're currently stuck on a 3 year old version, with no easy upgrade path in sight. |
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| 19:24.23 | sjansen | We have a working solution right now, but I honestly don't know if I'd make the same decisions today. |
| 19:24.36 | sjansen | Every single options sucks. Every. Single. One. |
| 19:25.00 | mulicheng | Could just write the whole d** thing in OOw :) |
| 19:25.12 | mulicheng | things that one sucks too. |
| 19:25.43 | unum | http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/09/sears_spies_on.html |
| 19:25.56 | unum | ya corporations don't need to be regulated by government |
| 19:27.58 | sjansen | Having spent a little over 4 years looking for the perfect solution, my advice is to pick whatever the h*** you want and bang on it until you're not ashamed to ship the result. Then never think about it again. |
| 19:28.41 | sjansen | The three most important words of advice I can give you are: single column layout. |
| 19:30.18 | sjansen | The overwhelming majority of technical books have _very_ simple layout. Even the most striking examples of attractive technical documentation are actually just variations on the universal single column layout. They just make better use of font choice and embellishment around the edges. |
| 19:30.59 | mulicheng | I think that is what I'm after. Something that makes some good font choices for me. I'm not an artist (or layout professional) |
| 19:31.07 | mulicheng | but I was planning on a single column layout. |
| 19:31.13 | sjansen | I'm willing to bet that anytime you see anything other than a single column layout (with maybe the occasional floating column limited to a single page), you're probably looking at the result of a GUI page layout app. |
| 19:31.21 | goozbach | mulicheng: you may try publican |
| 19:31.25 | goozbach | it's docbook based |
| 19:32.04 | goozbach | http://jfearn.fedorapeople.org/Publican/ |
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| 19:34.52 | mulicheng | Publican looks promising actually. |
| 19:35.07 | sjansen | *shrug* I think Docbook based Web pages stick out like a sore thumb, but it seems to be acceptable for most people. |
| 19:36.15 | mulicheng | Just looking at the publican site, I was under the impression it was created with their software. It seems to be a little more eye pleasing than the docbook site's default stuff. |
| 19:36.54 | goozbach | mulicheng: my sentiments exactly |
| 19:38.31 | mulicheng | But is it just their own styles for docbook material, or do they have an editor or something? |
| 19:38.37 | sjansen | I did. Standard annoying docbook dressed up with slightly better graphics. |
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| 19:48.08 | sjansen | jsmith-away: You should also check out Publican. |
| 19:54.12 | goozbach | sjansen: he already is |
| 19:54.19 | goozbach | we're working on a book in publican |
| 19:54.32 | goozbach | he did a presentation on publican at last year's utosc |
| 19:55.53 | sjansen | Ah. Well then. Okay. |
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| 20:57.19 | JoshH | i can't believe GUBUG is starting to show some signs of reincarnation |
| 20:57.31 | JoshH | it's had more email than sllug in the last week or so |
| 20:58.07 | unum | greater utah bsd user group? |
| 20:58.46 | JoshH | yes |
| 21:01.33 | Jayce^ | yeah, they gathering up for utosc pretty nicely |
| 21:01.38 | sjansen | I thought the BSDs were dead. |
| 21:01.53 | sjansen | Didn't they all die off a couple of years ago? |
| 21:02.11 | JoshH | see if netcraft confirms it |
| 21:03.24 | sjansen | Too lazy. I already know the BSDs are dead. |
| 21:03.59 | unum | people quit installing them, it's just they're still running from their original 1994 installs |
| 21:04.17 | unum | tarrant(who has been in here) is a bsd guy |
| 21:04.25 | unum | installed freebsd on his linode account |
| 21:05.34 | JoshH | the thing about the bsd's is that they are good at certain things, but there aren't many situations where they are better than linux, and even in those, the difference is tiny and your life would probably easier if you just used debian |
| 21:06.10 | unum | that's been my completely uniformed feeling :) |
| 21:06.25 | unum | though he's giving up on ubuntu because of some drive issue with his nvidia card |
| 21:06.26 | sjansen | Wow, that's hard core. |
| 21:06.47 | unum | s/uniformed/uninformed |
| 21:06.52 | sjansen | s/debian/RHEL/ |
| 21:06.56 | JoshH | nvidia does make freebsd drivers, but java and flash are still a pita with it |
| 21:07.04 | JoshH | i wouldn't want it for a desktop these days |
| 21:07.13 | JoshH | java is particularly horrendous with it |
| 21:07.18 | unum | who would pay for RHEL? |
| 21:07.25 | unum | ok, besides my employer |
| 21:07.31 | JoshH | morons |
| 21:07.33 | sjansen | Fine, CentOS. Cheap skate. |
| 21:07.52 | JoshH | unum: does your company take advantage of the support? |
| 21:08.05 | unum | JoshH: not anymore, so we are phasing it out |
| 21:08.07 | JoshH | i think only real enterprises should use RHEL |
| 21:08.29 | unum | but at one time I think we actually did |
| 21:08.34 | sjansen | unum: Does you company like knowing that it's server's install will be supported for 7 years instead of 3? |
| 21:08.41 | JoshH | a lot of small companies do and i don't think they really get their money's worth |
| 21:08.55 | sjansen | unum: Does you company like knowing that it's not at the whim of a bunch of prima donnas? |
| 21:09.23 | unum | sjansen: seeing how often we update the server the 7 year support may be very important..... |
| 21:09.38 | unum | actually that's not true |
| 21:09.44 | unum | we don't even run security updates |
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| 21:15.02 | sjansen | http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/09/24/2040221/Idaho-Tops-Americas-Most-Spammed-States |
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| 21:15.34 | sjansen | tensai: How's it feel to live and work in America's most spammed state? |
| 21:16.30 | sojourner | 'cause spam & potatoes go well together |
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| 21:35.46 | blendmaster1024 | lol |
| 21:36.22 | blendmaster1024 | sjansen, i hear you can explain to me what the difference is between bottom/top posting. i don't even know what people mean by that yet |
| 21:36.35 | blendmaster1024 | though i know you were in a flame war about it a while ago |
| 21:43.28 | Zelut | blendmaster1024: ignorne sjansen. always top post. |
| 21:43.36 | unum | blendmaster1024: when you reply to an email address to type above or belowe what was written before? |
| 21:43.48 | unum | for crying out loud no matter where you post TRIM!!!!!!! |
| 21:43.55 | unum | all my coworker top post |
| 21:43.59 | Zelut | unum: +1 |
| 21:44.04 | unum | I drive them nuts by bottom posting, but atleast I trim |
| 21:44.11 | Zelut | geeks bottom post. office top posts. its a never ending battle. |
| 21:44.19 | unum | I get emails with "can you look at this" on the top |
| 21:44.30 | mulicheng | So I've been playing with docbook for the last while. Found an ~ok~ editor. I can't seem to find a good pdf outputter though. |
| 21:44.40 | unum | I have to read the entire email to figure out what I'm looking at. |
| 21:46.16 | JoshH | i top post when replying to friends or coworkers, but bottom post to lists |
| 21:46.25 | JoshH | and always trim eithe rway |
| 21:49.25 | fungus | I hate, having to read emails bottom up. but that's the only way to understand it if everyone top-posts. |
| 21:50.13 | fungus | actually it's even worse than reading bottom up. It's most of the way down, read down, move up till you find a break, read down, repeat. |
| 21:50.44 | sjansen | http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/funny-pictures-kitten-is-in-measuring-cup.jpg |
| 21:51.08 | fungus | ~lolcats |
| 21:51.09 | ibot | rumour has it, lolcats is http://icanhascheezburger.com/?random |
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| 21:51.29 | JoshH | lolcats is basically the worst meme in history |
| 21:52.22 | goozbach | nah |
| 21:52.52 | fungus | but they are hilarious |
| 21:53.08 | JoshH | i don't think i've ever even smiled at one |
| 21:53.11 | JoshH | and i'm easily amused |
| 21:53.46 | goozbach | JoshH: maybe you're not a cat person |
| 21:53.51 | goozbach | try Ihasahotdog.com |
| 21:54.04 | JoshH | i don't hate cats, but i don't love them either |
| 21:56.09 | fungus | ok, i'll never get those 5 minutes back. |
| 21:56.19 | fungus | But it's ok, it made me happy |
| 21:57.52 | Sargun | JoshH, you're a horrible person |
| 21:58.05 | JoshH | thanks |
| 21:58.54 | JoshH | my main problems with cats are the need for a litterbox, which must be cleaned, and the fact that they pee in random places, like on top of my car or on the carpet |
| 21:59.09 | JoshH | if it wasn't for that, i'd probably be an owner |
| 21:59.26 | fungus | I like dogs better. |
| 21:59.27 | badon | oh wow. The wrong impressions you get when you just look at a chan after ignoring it for a while |
| 21:59.38 | badon | :) |
| 21:59.47 | JoshH | dogs are definitely better |
| 21:59.52 | JoshH | but they need a decent sized yard |
| 21:59.59 | fungus | especially *my* dogs |
| 22:00.02 | JoshH | which requires living in the suburbs |
| 22:00.02 | sjansen | badon: You're a horrible person too. We felt so alone without you. |
| 22:00.13 | unum | JoshH: let the cat out in the yard and it won't need a litter box |
| 22:00.21 | badon | JoshH: only if you have a decent sized dog |
| 22:00.24 | unum | why does everyone think a cat needs a litter box |
| 22:00.27 | JoshH | unum: i think that's irresponsible though |
| 22:00.35 | JoshH | unless the cat doesn't wander too far |
| 22:00.42 | unum | JoshH: why is it more irresponsible then letting a dog out? |
| 22:00.49 | JoshH | dogs can't jump over fences |
| 22:00.55 | unum | sure they can |
| 22:00.56 | badon | hi unum |
| 22:00.57 | unum | do it all the time |
| 22:01.01 | unum | hi badon |
| 22:01.01 | fungus | JoshH: *most* dogs can't |
| 22:01.05 | JoshH | not the ones i've had |
| 22:01.13 | sojourner | those that can't dig under them :) |
| 22:01.19 | unum | sojourner: soooo true |
| 22:01.26 | unum | dogs are way to high maintence for me |
| 22:01.36 | unum | I could never take care of one myself |
| 22:01.41 | fungus | I have one dog that is a perfect angel, no digging or jumping. The other one.... Erg! |
| 22:01.42 | badon | unum: they take care of each other |
| 22:02.09 | badon | I found some photos of my dog. He died a long time ago. |
| 22:02.30 | badon | He was cute and furry |
| 22:02.39 | fungus | My solution, don't bother closing the gate, teach him to stay in the yard himself. |
| 22:03.20 | unum | our cats mostly stayed in the yard |
| 22:04.59 | sojourner | the biggest problem with dogs is that they defecate *everywhere* |
| 22:05.20 | JoshH | in the backyard, yes |
| 22:05.23 | badon | sojourner: haha, yeah. |
| 22:05.30 | JoshH | and you can just toss it over the fence into the neighbors yard |
| 22:05.30 | badon | I like pugs lately |
| 22:05.38 | badon | I like other people's dogs :) |
| 22:05.48 | sojourner | on the trails too, and lame owners don't pick up after them |
| 22:05.54 | unum | ya |
| 22:06.07 | unum | and it's really bad if you live in condos or apartmens |
| 22:06.11 | unum | apartments |
| 22:06.22 | unum | maybe I don't dislike dogs, I dislike dog people ;p |
| 22:07.24 | badon | hears crickets |
| 22:07.54 | fungus | unum: those aren't "dog people" they are people with dogs |
| 22:08.27 | badon | http://images.google.com/images?client=opera&rls=en&q=dog+man&sourceid=opera&oe=utf-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=0O27Su_LIY6qswPEsKzcBQ&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1 |
| 22:08.51 | fungus | eww |
| 22:09.12 | sojourner | badon: i'm going to have nightmares for weeks now |
| 22:09.15 | sojourner | ;) |
| 22:09.36 | fungus | it's still not as bad as the horse |
| 22:09.40 | badon | haha, sorry. |
| 22:09.51 | badon | sojourner: maybe you want to see photos of cat people? |
| 22:09.52 | fungus | http://bit.ly/3mOKGc |
| 22:09.56 | badon | google's catwoman |
| 22:10.25 | JoshH | http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,421872,00.jpg |
| 22:10.33 | sojourner | no, that cat people would be disturbing too :D |
| 22:10.51 | JoshH | http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2008-11-20-genc_kurt2.jpg |
| 22:11.23 | fungus | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgSl_aQgl30 |
| 22:12.08 | JoshH | hahaha |
| 22:14.25 | JoshH | that takes being a furry to the next level |
| 22:14.30 | sojourner | everyone can wash their eyes out here: http://ow.ly/qXt1 |
| 22:16.37 | badon | I think I might know Mr. Midgely |
| 22:17.50 | sjansen | My eyes! |
| 22:17.58 | sjansen | They're burning! |
| 22:18.00 | badon | I'm afraid to look |
| 22:18.11 | sjansen | Little porcelain demons! |
| 22:18.16 | sjansen | The horror! |
| 22:18.45 | JoshH | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJWWVpo9zaE |
| 22:21.03 | sojourner | sjansen: you should see me over here trying not to laugh so loud my co-workers wander over to see whats going on :D |
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