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| 03:07.25 | *** topic/#utah is http://utos.org/irc | Log @ http://ibot.rikers.org/#utah | UTOSC 2009 Registration is open - http://sn.im/utos-reg | TANSTAAFL |
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| 03:07.50 | blendmaster1024 | ibot what happened |
| 03:07.51 | ibot | sorry, my owner was issuing a beating to me in the other channel :( |
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| 15:08.19 | ^Migs^ | http://i31.tinypic.com/2q9f0xd.jpg |
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| 15:40.03 | eggyknap | synic: pin |
| 15:40.07 | eggyknap | ping, even :) |
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| 16:00.22 | levi | Grr, I need to stop letting the stupid political rants of others make me angry. |
| 16:07.47 | ^Migs^ | one of my coworkers almost got into a fistfight here with our supervisor over Obama's upcoming speech to the students |
| 16:08.03 | ^Migs^ | lots of parents don't want it shown to their students |
| 16:08.32 | goozbach | people need too chill the F out |
| 16:08.50 | goozbach | on both sides |
| 16:09.20 | ^Migs^ | holy crap |
| 16:09.25 | ^Migs^ | I'm getting swarmed with emails about this now |
| 16:09.44 | ^Migs^ | All Obama is going to be talking about is (a) staying in school, and (b) working hard |
| 16:10.07 | goozbach | any debheads in the room? |
| 16:10.12 | ^Migs^ | And our official position as a public school district is that the President has the right to share a message with our students |
| 16:10.22 | ^Migs^ | they don't have to listen, and they're free to go do something else if they want, but we have to share it. |
| 16:11.27 | tristanbob_ | http://blog.backblaze.com/2009/09/01/petabytes-on-a-budget-how-to-build-cheap-cloud-storage/ |
| 16:11.38 | tristanbob_ | How to build 67 terabyte 4U server for $7,867 |
| 16:20.44 | ^Migs^ | http://www.cbc.ca/cp/Oddities/090902/K090204AU.html |
| 16:20.45 | brac | [Man with prosthetic arms says bank turned him away because he couldn't provide thumbprint] |
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| 16:25.05 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 16:34.54 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@dhcp175.openinternet.gurulabs.com) |
| 16:35.00 | stderr | ^Migs^: oh noes the president is going to talk to my kids |
| 16:37.37 | sjansen | http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-finger-bitten-rally,0,7135717.story |
| 16:39.04 | sjansen | stderr: Apparently anything and everything the president does is political. He's supposed to spend 4 years hiding in a dark corner avoiding talking to anyone. |
| 16:42.21 | *** join/#utah {-} (n=sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 16:45.01 | stderr | sjansen: didn't you hear? he's a secret socialist spy trained by Islamic terrorists from the time he was a toddler. |
| 16:46.29 | *** join/#utah mrpull (n=Jake@67.208.136.68) |
| 16:54.51 | neybar | stderr: yeah I did hear that actually. |
| 16:54.54 | neybar | :) |
| 16:57.30 | stderr | of course you did. |
| 16:57.48 | levi | People are so freaking stupid sometimes. |
| 16:58.12 | *** join/#utah jalbretsen (n=jalbrets@70.56.105.108) |
| 16:59.19 | Jayce^ | and of course, by that you mean those that don't agree with you in each case :-p |
| 16:59.37 | levi | Jayce^: No, that's not at all what I mean. |
| 17:01.58 | {-} | levi: Admit it, you want to bite Jayce^'s finger off. |
| 17:02.14 | Jayce^ | lol |
| 17:02.18 | stderr | Jayce^: anyone who thinks Obama is a secret socialist spy trained by Islamic terrorists is an idiot. |
| 17:02.24 | stderr | I don't think that's arguable. |
| 17:03.26 | levi | Right, I disagree with Jayce^ on a lot of things, but his positions are not outright stupid. |
| 17:03.38 | stderr | he can get a little wacky. |
| 17:03.43 | Jayce^ | awwww, never though you liked me *that* much levi :) |
| 17:03.47 | stderr | but he's fairly reasonable most of the time. |
| 17:04.44 | Jayce^ | I think my biggest problem with the aforementioned broadcast is a) the teachers union's memos, which can be benign at heart, but have already caused some serious nutjob's togo too far.. |
| 17:05.12 | Jayce^ | and it in relation to some of his current 'special advisors' comments on 'usage of education' |
| 17:05.50 | stderr | give me reference to the stuff you're putting pithy quotes around. |
| 17:06.05 | levi | Serious nutjobs don't need much provocation to go too far. |
| 17:06.28 | Jayce^ | there was a recent video of the "pledge to obama" one school was doing.. quite classy I'd say |
| 17:06.32 | Jayce^ | levi: agreed |
| 17:07.01 | stderr | "pledge to obama"? what type of school? where? what was the context? |
| 17:07.18 | stderr | and: so what? whackjobs are everywhere. Obama had nothing to do with it. |
| 17:07.30 | {-} | Think of the children! |
| 17:07.54 | Jayce^ | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqcPA1ysSbw |
| 17:08.34 | Jayce^ | stderr: that was "their implementation" of the unions suggestions... which is what I mentioned when I started my point stderr ... it wasn't him, it was what folks out there were doing about it |
| 17:09.21 | stderr | Jayce^: "I pledge..." then they pledge stuff. |
| 17:09.32 | *** join/#utah blendmaster1024 (n=blendmas@75-169-215-57.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 17:09.33 | stderr | "to never give anyone the finger while I'm driving again" |
| 17:09.44 | stderr | Wow, yea, you can tell this is a secret socialist conspiracy right here! |
| 17:09.50 | Jayce^ | hehe, just wait |
| 17:10.07 | Jayce^ | there are some really lame ones in there |
| 17:10.18 | blendmaster1024 | may i have the context? |
| 17:10.19 | {-} | Actually he's referring to the last couple of sentences. "I pledge allegiance to Obama and to the people..." or some such. |
| 17:10.29 | stderr | oh noes. |
| 17:10.36 | stderr | makes a dirty gesture |
| 17:10.36 | {-} | There are several pretty stupid points in the video. |
| 17:10.46 | blendmaster1024 | what video? |
| 17:10.48 | blendmaster1024 | link? |
| 17:10.49 | stderr | it was made by Demi Moore and Ashton Kutcher, of course there are. |
| 17:10.50 | {-} | But nothing worthy of the hissy fit some have been throwing. |
| 17:10.58 | stderr | people are actually throwing a hissy fit over this? |
| 17:11.02 | stderr | Dear baby Jesus. |
| 17:11.49 | {-} | At one point, some idiot also pledges funk to the funk of funkadelia, or some such nonsense. |
| 17:11.58 | unum | stderr: the principle was forced to send home apologies |
| 17:12.24 | unum | I found a counter response to that video and posted it on face book |
| 17:12.32 | unum | and tried to come up with some she missed..... |
| 17:12.42 | unum | I pledge to carry my gun with me everywhere I go |
| 17:13.04 | unum | I pledge to continue to talk like the founding father agreed with me on every issue |
| 17:13.10 | stderr | I pledge to punch an idiotic redneck monthly |
| 17:13.20 | Jayce^ | invites stderr over :) |
| 17:13.26 | unum | I pledge to be greedy and work only for myself and my family because THAT is what makes America great |
| 17:13.32 | unum | levi had a few good ones too |
| 17:13.38 | neybar | don't do it stderr Jayce^ has guns... :) |
| 17:13.41 | stderr | Jayce^: seriously? You can come spar with me at the muay thai gym any time you're feeling spunky. |
| 17:13.45 | stderr | neybar: yea, so do I. |
| 17:14.07 | {-} | offers to help sell tickets to the match |
| 17:14.11 | levi | unum: Mine were actually 'good' things, though, not ironic, make conservatives look like dumbasses things. |
| 17:14.12 | stderr | and my conceal & carry on two of em. |
| 17:14.28 | unum | levi: true |
| 17:14.40 | neybar | stderr: wasn't trying to start a bigger gun pissing contest. Just making with the funny. calm down. |
| 17:15.17 | stderr | well you make the assumption that I'm some panty waste liberal who's going to be shot if I go over to Jayce^'s house. |
| 17:15.59 | stderr | which is amusing, to say the least. |
| 17:16.28 | stderr | anyway I'm totally down for friendly sparring. |
| 17:16.43 | goozbach | first trick to getting to jayce's house is to avoid the bear traps and hidden covered tiger pits |
| 17:17.02 | neybar | not to mention the abandoned cars on blocks |
| 17:17.07 | goozbach | second step is to walk the proper path to avoid setting off the automatic defense turrets |
| 17:17.26 | goozbach | neybar: *THATS RIGHT* he did just get a new truck |
| 17:17.32 | levi | It looks to me like a bunch of celebrities pledging to do things *they* think are helpful to their community and country, and the point of the video is to ask people what *they* are willing to pledge to do to help the community and country. Yeah, some of the examples were a bit nutty, but these are a bunch of celebrities, who are not really known for being level-headed. |
| 17:17.35 | Jayce^ | ooh, new FEMA head finally has a clue! |
| 17:17.37 | Jayce^ | "the more the federal government does in routine emergencies, the greater the odds of catastrophic failure in a big disaster. " |
| 17:18.13 | stderr | Fugate? He's a smart man. |
| 17:18.19 | Jayce^ | yup |
| 17:19.08 | Jayce^ | wonder how long he'll last though |
| 17:19.26 | stderr | Why? He's experienced at this sort of stuff, he certainly isn't any Brownie. |
| 17:19.50 | stderr | He led Florida through two straight years of the worst hurricane emergencies they've ever had |
| 17:19.56 | levi | I'd much rather have kids see that 'pledge' video at school than a bunch of soda and junk food advertisements. |
| 17:20.07 | levi | But I can see why Obama haters would hate it. |
| 17:20.13 | Jayce^ | he's intentions go very much against the organization |
| 17:20.58 | {-} | I think FEMA has effectively demonstrated that without a firm leader, they wouldn't be able to organize the egging of his house let alone a coup. |
| 17:21.15 | rsimpkins | What is a 'routine emergency' any way? |
| 17:21.37 | stderr | rsimpkins: the fires in LA. |
| 17:22.28 | rsimpkins | I'll never get it. |
| 17:22.40 | Jayce^ | even with a firm leader, they shouldn't be expected, depended on, or any else |
| 17:23.07 | rsimpkins | An emergency is an emergency. Unless you're running triage because you have multiple emergencies of various sizes, they are all pretty freaking important. |
| 17:23.23 | stderr | rsimpkins: there are certainly levels of emergency. That's nonsense. |
| 17:23.43 | rsimpkins | stderr: I am not disagreeing with you. |
| 17:23.50 | stderr | Some emergencies will overwhelm local authorities, which is why we have FEMA |
| 17:23.53 | Jayce^ | btw, anybody see pics of that new super-tanker 747 dropping in LA? |
| 17:24.03 | stderr | Jayce^: yea, saw it on the news today |
| 17:24.07 | Jayce^ | 20k gallons of retardant, pressurized |
| 17:24.09 | rsimpkins | Jayce^: links? |
| 17:24.18 | stderr | yea, I was like.. wait... IS THAT A 747?! |
| 17:24.20 | Jayce^ | stderr: very cool (catching up after being offline all yesterday) |
| 17:24.38 | stderr | bah, I have to get back to work. This is an interesting conversation though and I shall be back during lunch. |
| 17:25.21 | Jayce^ | rsimpkins: http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/09/evergreen-supertanker/ |
| 17:25.40 | Jayce^ | yeah, I'm supposedly working on 3 different fires right now, really should have IRC off again :) |
| 17:25.56 | {-} | Not all emergencies are created equal. The new FEMA head is trying to help people understand that citizens and local leaders should be more prepared to deal with the small stuff themselves, not wait for FEMA to fly supplies and people across the country. |
| 17:26.29 | {-} | A train derailment spilling toxic chemicals should not be a job for FEMA. |
| 17:26.52 | {-} | Yearly fires in California, Nevada, etc. should not be a job for FEMA. |
| 17:26.57 | Jayce^ | FEMA should exist as most Federal agencies, simply a tool to help interstate agencies coordinate |
| 17:27.18 | Jayce^ | not be a source of funding, manpower, or other assets than information |
| 17:28.17 | *** join/#utah blendmaster1024 (n=blendmas@75-169-215-57.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 17:30.05 | levi | He's got a web page: http://www.disastersrus.org/bio.htm |
| 17:30.06 | brac | [Bio] |
| 17:30.47 | levi | Not updated lately, though. |
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| 17:43.59 | goozbach | http://peopleofwalmart.com/ |
| 17:45.50 | Jayce^ | goozbach: yeah, it's been getting hammered today as it's been getting out... |
| 17:45.56 | Jayce^ | great idea though |
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| 20:07.59 | {-} | So... Basically Sobe is just super concentrated sugar water with a hint of fruit flavor, huh? |
| 20:08.22 | goozbach | {-}: you're supprised? |
| 20:08.36 | {-} | Actually, yes. |
| 20:08.50 | goozbach | anything you buy from a 7-11 is most likely not fruit juice. |
| 20:08.57 | unum | I thought it had a stimulant |
| 20:09.03 | goozbach | and that includes the fruit juices |
| 20:09.09 | {-} | For something that's supposed to energize the body and mind, I was expect a little more stimulant than plain old sugar. |
| 20:09.11 | levi | Well, Sobe does tend to have juice in it. |
| 20:09.15 | levi | But so does Mountain Dew. |
| 20:09.24 | goozbach | {-}: try the "power" flavor |
| 20:09.29 | goozbach | it has guarana |
| 20:10.02 | levi | The Sobe Energy flavor has caffeine, taurine, ginseng, and guarana. |
| 20:10.30 | unum | I think most of them have guarana |
| 20:10.47 | levi | The first three ingredients are water, sugar, and orange juice concentrate. |
| 20:11.24 | levi | And it's got 32mg of caffeine per 8oz. |
| 20:12.18 | levi | Which gives you about 80mg per bottle. |
| 20:12.19 | unum | huh there's no gaurana in the carot elixer |
| 20:12.23 | unum | I thought there was |
| 20:13.07 | unum | it has the same first three ingredients |
| 20:13.19 | unum | 9% juice |
| 20:13.41 | unum | does that mean it's more than 10% sugar? |
| 20:14.11 | unum | 23 g per 8 oz serving, why do they mix units? |
| 20:14.37 | unum | ah 240 ml |
| 20:17.42 | *** join/#utah findlay (n=justin@unwired-44.guest.inscc.utah.edu) |
| 20:17.45 | levi | Apparently the highest caffeine concentration in a SoBe drink is found in the SoBe No Fear and No Fear Gold, which has 10.88 mg/oz., which is between the concentration of instant and brewed coffee. |
| 20:18.08 | findlay | ~brew levi |
| 20:21.23 | unum | Was not able to complete the survey. There was an error message. |
| 20:21.24 | unum | Thank you. |
| 20:21.35 | unum | and thank you for letting us now there was an error message |
| 20:21.42 | unum | we will correct that immediately |
| 20:21.55 | unum | there should be a bug report class in high school |
| 20:22.22 | findlay | I'm sorry, the requested class is unavailable at this time |
| 20:24.17 | unum | I guess we did get an errorcode number in the subject..... |
| 20:27.20 | harleypig | Just enable the 'nobugs' flag ... |
| 20:28.11 | unum | oh darn it, why didn't I remember that |
| 20:28.38 | harleypig | For some reason, it's not commonly used. |
| 20:28.50 | harleypig | Like C:\MAGICSMOKE.EXE ... |
| 20:30.18 | rsimpkins | What is messagedance supposed to be? |
| 20:30.24 | rsimpkins | I can't bring up their site to find out. |
| 20:38.25 | findlay | how do I get all protocols to use $http_proxy? |
| 20:39.58 | *** part/#utah robertj_ (n=robertj@nat.myfamilyinc.com) |
| 20:44.47 | {-} | findlay: Submit patches to every program implementing every protocol you care about. |
| 20:45.39 | findlay | {-}: well, on gui-driven distros, like ubuntu all you have to do to get this to happen is check a box. This to me suggested that the real solution was simple |
| 20:46.10 | {-} | No, that checkbox only applies to the handful of applications that have been patched to make it work. |
| 20:46.27 | goozbach | GARARASDFASDF!!!!! |
| 20:47.04 | goozbach | WHY CAN'T DEBIAN FORMAT MORE THAN ONE HARD DRIVE DURING AN AUTOMATED INSTALLATION??!@!@#!@#! |
| 20:47.08 | findlay | well, yes, then I only care about that privileged handful |
| 20:47.43 | Sargun | haha |
| 20:47.57 | Sargun | goozbach, you just have to be clever |
| 20:48.11 | goozbach | Sargun: want to help? |
| 20:48.30 | Sargun | partition first, install later |
| 20:48.52 | {-} | goozbach: Your question leads to me conclude you're trying to use Debian to get actual work done. Sounds like a dangerous experiment. Could I recommend a enterprise worthy distro instead? |
| 20:49.14 | goozbach | Sargun: I shouldn't have to do that |
| 20:49.15 | *** join/#utah blendmaster1024 (n=blendmas@75-169-193-97.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 20:49.21 | Sargun | .... |
| 20:49.22 | goozbach | {-}: oh how I wish I could |
| 20:49.40 | goozbach | I should be able to define my $#%@$!%@^ partitions in the automated install script |
| 20:50.01 | {-} | It's not a flaw, it's a feature. Debian was created by masochists for masochists. |
| 20:50.18 | goozbach | I'm honestly swearing up a storm now |
| 20:50.33 | {-} | I mean, how else are you going to prove you're a true Evil Genius? Frickin' sharks with lasers? Everyone has one these days. |
| 20:53.13 | {-} | goozbach: You haven't experienced the pleasure that is preseed yet, have you? |
| 20:53.52 | goozbach | {-}: I've experienced it |
| 20:53.57 | goozbach | but it worked with raid |
| 20:54.24 | goozbach | why can't I make a damn normal partion using the same tool |
| 20:56.11 | goozbach | here's what I've tried: http://gist.github.com/180363 |
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| 21:40.14 | {-} | elg: Dude, your commit messages suck. |
| 21:43.12 | goozbach | {-}: "updated stuff"? |
| 21:43.48 | {-} | http://hans.fugal.net/blog/2009/09/03/git-whereami |
| 21:44.01 | {-} | Betcha YACM == "yet another commit message" |
| 21:46.09 | neybar | lol... "updated stuff" is a perfectly valid commit message. |
| 21:47.23 | Jayce^ | shuns neybar |
| 21:48.02 | {-} | ~shun neybar |
| 21:48.02 | ibot | You are dead to me, neybar. |
| 21:48.03 | neybar | commits Jayce^ |
| 21:48.35 | Jayce^ | unshun.... too late, already happened.... shun |
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| 21:57.43 | elg | they're not real commit messages |
| 21:57.43 | *** join/#utah toofer (n=toofer@kjordan.securesites.net) |
| 21:59.38 | elg | the graph is real, the commit messages are fairly unimaginative anonmyizations |
| 21:59.57 | elg | er, obfuscations? or sanitizations |
| 22:01.43 | elg | heh. http://www.javelinjs.com/ |
| 22:01.44 | brac | [Javelin (JS)] |
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| 22:36.48 | {-} | http://failblog.org/2009/09/03/doll-fail/ |
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| 22:46.39 | levi | {-}: So were you totally outraged about the 'I pledge' video being shown to kids? |
| 22:47.03 | ^Migs^ | right now, I'm being swarmed with emails from angry parents about Obama's message to students next week |
| 22:47.30 | ^Migs^ | "I DON'T WANT MY KIDS TO WATCH OBAMA'S VIDEO, I CAN'T BELIEVE YOUR DISTRICT IS MAKING EVERYONE WATCH IT" |
| 22:47.37 | ^Migs^ | "NAZI PROPAGANDA" |
| 22:48.09 | ^Migs^ | mentioned that earlier, too |
| 22:48.21 | levi | I'm saddened, but not surprised. |
| 22:48.38 | elg | " NEWS FLASH! Obama is now conducting mandatory indoctrination of school children starting September 8, 2009. All schools are required to show all students his indoctrination propaganda presentation strait from the horseâs ugly lips. Obama, the newest Hitler." |
| 22:48.49 | elg | one of my aunt's status update |
| 22:48.55 | bonez46 | what's this video..is this state/country wide? |
| 22:48.56 | stderr | facepalms |
| 22:49.03 | elg | i have her hidden |
| 22:49.08 | ^Migs^ | I don't think the parents understand. We're kind of obligated, as a public school district, to share a message from our government leader. |
| 22:49.18 | elg | i only noticed it because the blackberry facebook app (which I sometimes flip through when I'm bored) ignores my hiding settings |
| 22:49.21 | {-} | levi: Nope. But I was disappointed by the stupidity of the people who produced it. |
| 22:49.31 | ^Migs^ | not just kind of. We ARE obligated. We're not obligated to force students to watch, though, so they can go and do whatever they want if they don't want to participate |
| 22:50.09 | stderr | "My Johnny never liked watermelon BEFORE!" |
| 22:50.14 | ^Migs^ | hahahahaha |
| 22:51.41 | levi | elg: I completely removed myself from a family social network site because of stuff like that, and the fact that I got ripped apart when I suggested they not demonize people who they disagreed with. |
| 22:52.10 | stderr | levi: haha. ironic. |
| 22:52.33 | stderr | I'm come from a family of commies who're too busy to post things on Facebook, thank baby Jesus. |
| 22:52.36 | levi | Turned into a huge discussion where a couple of them made it clear that they had absolutely no respect for me (in pretty much those words) and that they considered me a horrible person. |
| 22:52.37 | stderr | s/I'm/I |
| 22:52.38 | {-} | elg: For you aunt -> http://punditkitchen.com/2009/08/28/political-pictures-adolph-hitler-bush-obama/ |
| 22:53.20 | elg | bummer |
| 22:54.08 | stderr | did you guys see the woman in the IDF shirt yelling "Heil Hitler" at an Israeli immigrant expressing his support for a public health option? |
| 22:54.21 | stderr | video of said event, that is. |
| 22:54.46 | elg | since when was hitler evil because his party had the word socialist in it? |
| 22:54.58 | elg | that's such convoluted logic it makes my head hurt. |
| 22:55.35 | stderr | when did socialism become such an evil word? |
| 22:55.37 | levi | It doesn't matter how convoluted the logic is, as long as someone makes a connection somehow. |
| 22:56.10 | elg | i guess there is some comfort to be had in noticing godwin's law (in some form) is still going strong |
| 22:56.12 | {-} | socialism == communism == atheism == evil |
| 22:56.18 | levi | stderr: About the time that a bunch of powerful communist nations were trying to take over the world, I think. |
| 22:56.22 | stderr | also the fact that Glenn Beck has ripped off the one founding father who had consistently socialist/radical ideas is pretty awesome. |
| 22:56.30 | stderr | communism != socialism. |
| 22:56.34 | elg | socialism == you take my hard earned cash to take care of losers |
| 22:56.45 | elg | != charity |
| 22:56.48 | {-} | Never mind "love thy neighbor" seems to fit better with socialism than capitalism. |
| 22:56.49 | elg | == evil |
| 22:56.51 | elg | == atheism |
| 22:56.55 | elg | *explosion* |
| 22:56.56 | stderr | {-}: or, uh, JESUS? |
| 22:57.04 | stderr | yea, I bet Jesus was one helluva capitalist. |
| 22:57.09 | stderr | >_< |
| 22:57.19 | stderr | Have any of these people actually read the f***ing bible, or what? |
| 22:57.35 | levi | stderr: Depends on whose definitions you're using for socialism and communism. They were part of the same continuum in Marx's head, anyway. |
| 22:57.53 | stderr | levi: we already have numerous socialist policies in place. We're not a communist nation. |
| 22:57.58 | elg | i wouldn't ascribe to malice that which can be explained by culture and never thinking deeply about what they're parroting |
| 22:58.09 | {-} | stderr: He was misquoted 2000 years ago. You can be sure that if he were here today, he'd be urging everyone to increase profit margins, not turn the other cheek. |
| 22:58.20 | stderr | {-}: or, uh, turn over the moneychanger's table |
| 22:58.36 | levi | stderr: We're not a socialist nation either, despite those policies. |
| 22:58.47 | stderr | elg: I don't think it's malice. But don't come at me as a christian when you're not one. |
| 22:59.24 | stderr | levi: true enough. |
| 22:59.26 | elg | well i think that gets complicated. is one a christian because one thinks one is, even if they're not a very good one? or are they only christian when they measure up to some ideal? |
| 22:59.41 | stderr | elg: I'm pretty sure Christ spelled that out, too. |
| 23:00.16 | stderr | and no you're not a christian just because you call yourself one, or quote the bible, or tithe money to your church, or go to church. |
| 23:00.18 | {-} | Following the teachings of Christ is not enough. It's not even part of the measure. You must belong to a Christian church. |
| 23:00.34 | {-} | Which is why Mormons aren't Christians. |
| 23:00.38 | stderr | {-}: when did Christ ever make that pronouncement? |
| 23:00.44 | elg | touche. i guess i have no real answer to that. other than I think it's counterproductive to tell people they're not christian as a way to get them to act more christlike |
| 23:01.00 | {-} | stderr: He was killed by the socialists before he had a chance. |
| 23:01.05 | neybar | stderr: agreed, but how can you tell that elg isn't one? Do you have some magic sensor in your irc client that divines this information? |
| 23:01.08 | elg | because then the fighting instinct kicks in |
| 23:01.42 | stderr | neybar: never said elg wasn't one. |
| 23:01.56 | stderr | I was talking in general. Don't come at me as a christian if you're not Christ-like. |
| 23:02.03 | neybar | <stderr> elg: I don't think it's malice. But don't come at me as a christian when you're not one. |
| 23:02.23 | elg | fwiw I took stderr the way he intended |
| 23:02.54 | neybar | stderr: sorry, I took that more literally than was intended. |
| 23:03.11 | stderr | neybar: see, I wish a Christian would say that about the Old Testament some time. |
| 23:03.12 | stderr | :P |
| 23:03.13 | stderr | I kid. |
| 23:03.51 | stderr | Mostly I have a problem with people who interpret scripture literally when the whole point and expression of the Bible is quite obviously allegory. |
| 23:04.10 | stderr | or people who're pro-life yet pro-death penalty. |
| 23:04.17 | stderr | Little non-Christ-like problems like that. |
| 23:05.04 | {-} | The Bible contains both literal and allegorical content. |
| 23:05.53 | stderr | if you're Christ-like, you should be more than willing to pay more taxes to supply people with a higher quality of life. The guy died for you. The least you can do is give away the money he loathed so much. |
| 23:05.53 | {-} | "Thou shalt not kill" is pretty literal. |
| 23:05.57 | stderr | oh don't get me started on the Ten Commandments. |
| 23:06.13 | {-} | I wouldn't say the Christ loathed money. I also wouldn't say he was as radical some try to portray him. |
| 23:06.20 | fungus | Don't forget that the law of consecration is socialism |
| 23:06.32 | neybar | except that being taxed is against ones will. There is no charity what so ever involved in that. On the other hand if you of your own free will give to charity, volunteer etc then that is a measure of charity. |
| 23:06.47 | stderr | {-}: he seemed pretty damn radical the last time I read The New Testament. |
| 23:06.55 | {-} | The _love_ of money is the root of all evil, not money. Without money, there wouldn't be the widow's mite. |
| 23:07.01 | fungus | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_consecration |
| 23:07.12 | stderr | neybar: but WHY is it against your will? |
| 23:07.28 | {-} | There is room for government "render unto Caesar" and "my kingdom is not of this world". |
| 23:08.08 | levi | Taxation isn't any more 'against your will' than tithing is, if you treat it with the same attitude. |
| 23:08.21 | stderr | exactly. |
| 23:08.29 | {-} | Christ didn't just go after the money changers as he cleansed the temple, he got rid of all merchants. |
| 23:08.30 | elg | i really don't like the argument about tax being stealing from the people |
| 23:08.45 | elg | we as a society have to make some decisions, spend some money, etc. as a collective |
| 23:08.49 | levi | elg: You must have fun conversations with Von. ;) |
| 23:09.02 | stderr | elg: I totally agree. |
| 23:09.04 | elg | of course not everyone is going to be in total agreement about what taxes should be or what they should be used for |
| 23:09.21 | elg | that's why we have leaders we elect to figure this out, and we all agree to abide by whatever they decide |
| 23:09.25 | {-} | The money changer's tables were thrown over violently, great action scene, everyone focus on it. But he also got rid of the vendors selling sacrificial animals. He was just more gentle as he did it. |
| 23:09.28 | stderr | Really, if anything, if you're a Christian and protesting taxes, protest how the vast majority goes to defense spending. |
| 23:09.42 | stderr | don't give me this crap about welfare and universal healthcare |
| 23:09.47 | elg | levi: fun is not the word I'd use, but yes. |
| 23:10.08 | {-} | Are you going to claim that Christ was also opposed to sacrifice because he turned out the vendors? |
| 23:10.28 | levi | Fortunately, my brother doesn't seem particularly interested in politics, or in having conversations with me. |
| 23:10.39 | *** join/#utah toofer (n=toofer@kjordan.securesites.net) |
| 23:10.52 | neybar | stderr: that is just the thing, with tax I can't say I support welfare, but not defense. Or I support health care, but not social security. It is indiscriminate, and frankly out of control. Now I agree that there are some things that gov't does with taxes that are impossible to do at an individual or even community level. |
| 23:11.08 | stderr | "out of control" ? |
| 23:11.17 | stderr | have you looked at taxation levels in U.S. history? |
| 23:11.26 | stderr | do you believe you were taxed _less_ under Reagan? |
| 23:11.43 | {-} | The problem is, too many focus on particular details of Christ, instead of trying to understand the whole of his ministry and teaching. It's complex and at times can seem contradictory. Because there are very few absolute rules beyond "Love God and each other". |
| 23:11.46 | neybar | I didn't pay taxed under reagan, so yes, :) |
| 23:12.05 | elg | we are basically at a standstill. he can't convince me to give up my radical ideas that personal liberty isn't the perfect bandaid, and i can't keep up with his enthusiasm and readings enough to provide any real arguments |
| 23:12.12 | levi | {-}: Amen to that. |
| 23:12.51 | elg | me saying "I used to think that way and life experience has tempered my views" doesn't help any more than a parent trying to talk sense into a teenager. so we try to mostly talk about linux stuff. :) |
| 23:13.17 | levi | elg: The trick is that you can't assail his arguments; they're fairly sound. The weaknesses are in the premises on which they're based. |
| 23:13.36 | neybar | well as fun as this conversation is I going home. |
| 23:13.51 | elg | right, and I can't really unseat the premises because they're so strongly held and all I have to replace them are premises of my own |
| 23:13.58 | elg | hence the standstill |
| 23:14.01 | levi | Yeah. |
| 23:14.08 | elg | which i am ok with |
| 23:14.12 | elg | i don't need everyone to agree with me |
| 23:14.24 | elg | but i'd prefer if you did it without the hyperbole and the name calling |
| 23:14.33 | levi | No kidding. :) |
| 23:14.59 | elg | but that's von's personality. he and jacob (closer in age) were always getting into trouble. he loves to pick fights |
| 23:15.40 | elg | so I try to call him on it without calling him crazy. a fine line sometimes, when my blood starts to boil |
| 23:15.48 | levi | The cousins that I left the family social board to avoid, and their father to a lesser extent, are like that. |
| 23:16.27 | levi | My wife is still on it, and they still occasionally drop little barbs that seemed aimed to get me riled up. |
| 23:18.06 | levi | I think I did help influence some of them to pay a little less heed to certain radio programs, though, including my mom. |
| 23:20.39 | fungus | http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=226 |
| 23:21.03 | fungus | sucks to be paying taxes in the 80s |
| 23:22.52 | levi | IIRC, interest rates weren't fun then, either. |
| 23:23.05 | stderr | fungus: Sure did. |
| 23:23.23 | harleypig | http://peopleofwalmart.com/?p=171 |
| 23:23.33 | fungus | Why is it now that the anti-taxation feeling so much bigger now? |
| 23:23.38 | harleypig | That's for the person who first posted that link |
| 23:23.41 | elg | harleypig: all day? :) |
| 23:24.32 | {-} | fungus: Is it? |
| 23:24.50 | {-} | Do you have poll data to show a change in national opinion of taxes? |
| 23:24.51 | fungus | Yeah, the whole "Tea Party" crap |
| 23:24.51 | harleypig | no ... just noticed it (I occasionally look at the last 10 links or so) |
| 23:25.04 | fungus | Good point |
| 23:25.11 | harleypig | But I just spent 15 minutes or so on it. :> |
| 23:25.31 | {-} | The past is always better than the present, especially if you didn't live it. |
| 23:25.47 | harleypig | The future is always worse than the present ... |
| 23:25.58 | harleypig | wait ... that doesn't quite work out ... hmmmm .... |
| 23:26.34 | {-} | We remember people like George Washington and Abraham Lincoln. We don't remember the bomb throwers like Ann Coulter, even though they've always existed, because critics never create anything memorable. |
| 23:26.54 | fungus | Perhaps I'll just keep that link handy for those people that think that taxes are so bad now. |
| 23:26.58 | {-} | Unless they rise to truly impressive levels of corruption, like Tamny Hall. |
| 23:27.15 | levi | Actually, you could probably classify a lot of the revolutionary figures as bomb throwers. |
| 23:27.44 | levi | They just ended up later getting into positions of responsibility rather than remaining pamphleteers. |
| 23:28.39 | stderr | {-}: that's ridiculous. Thomas Paine was most certainly a bomb thrower. |
| 23:29.06 | stderr | even if his funeral DID go unattended (except for a few black guys), he got his fame eventually. |
| 23:29.44 | {-} | stderr: I dare you walk down the street as ask each person if they know who Thomas Paine is. |
| 23:29.58 | stderr | well they know because Beck just butchered his pamphlet |
| 23:30.00 | elg | is he related to thomas the tank engine? |
| 23:30.38 | stderr | but, huh. I dunno, Paine is one of my idols. I'd be shocked to learn the majority of Americans didn't know who he was. |
| 23:30.44 | levi | Time to head home. |
| 23:30.51 | stderr | but I've been shocked by em before, and I'm sure I'll be shocked again. |
| 23:30.58 | levi | stderr: Prepare to be shocked about a lot of things the average American doesn't know. :( |
| 23:31.03 | unum | I really don't like paine |
| 23:31.31 | {-} | My point is, we tend to forget the reality of a time period. |
| 23:31.32 | unum | I still need to read common sense, I bet I have it in my patriot writings book |
| 23:31.39 | unum | {-}: very very true |
| 23:31.48 | unum | I don't know if forget is the right word |
| 23:32.27 | {-} | romanticize |
| 23:32.31 | unum | how many people know about the occupation of the phillipines? |
| 23:32.39 | unum | {-}: I like that word |
| 23:33.09 | stderr | unum: uh... which occupation? |
| 23:33.17 | unum | I bet more people know Paine wrote Common Sense than know we occupied the phillipines for decades |
| 23:33.35 | unum | stderr: 1898-1941 |
| 23:33.41 | unum | double checks |
| 23:34.01 | stderr | yes, at which time the Japanese occupied the Phillipines |
| 23:35.23 | {-} | Looks like the primary occupation of the Philippines is "laborers and unskilled workers" according to http://www.census.gov.ph/data/sectordata/sr0944703a.htm |
| 23:35.25 | unum | yep |
| 23:35.29 | bonez46 | didn't we bet ousted from the Phillipines a few years ago ? |
| 23:35.56 | unum | I think we still have navy bases there |
| 23:35.58 | unum | just like cuba |
| 23:37.33 | {-} | The US doesn't occupy, it liberates. |
| 23:38.13 | {-} | You bunch of nazi vegetarian socialist hippie fascist communists.. |
| 23:38.26 | {-} | exits stage right |
| 23:39.21 | fungus | heh, vegetarian socialist hippie, maybe... |
| 23:39.47 | *** join/#utah tristanbob__ (n=tristanb@dhcp-vpn-137-190-250-167.weber.edu) |
| 23:41.02 | elg | are fungi vegetarian-friendly? does a fungus have more in common with a plant or with an animal? what about bacteria? |
| 23:41.05 | elg | yeast? |
| 23:41.27 | fungus | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_%28biology%29 |
| 23:41.28 | elg | what is vegetarian-friendly? things that don't move? don't move very much? don't make noise? |
| 23:41.40 | fungus | Animal kingdom is off limits |
| 23:41.40 | elg | grow in dirt? |
| 23:42.27 | unum | I think flesh is fairly clearly defined |
| 23:42.47 | unum | though all the "vegetarians" I knew ate fish I thought there was an exception for fish |
| 23:43.14 | fungus | some vegetarians make strange exceptions. |
| 23:43.19 | fungus | imho |
| 23:43.22 | elg | is a clam that much more special than a plant that it deserves to not be eaten? |
| 23:43.44 | elg | ok, back to work. leave the poor vegetarians alone |
| 23:43.49 | unum | Benjamin Franklin made an exception for fish |
| 23:43.58 | elg | they're already at a disadvantage because they don't eat meat |
