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| 15:14.19 | josephscott | mindjuju: you taking this whole week off to ramp up for OpenWest? |
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| 15:25.18 | jsmith | josephscott: Are you not eating all week to gear up for Waffle Night? |
| 15:25.39 | josephscott | jsmith: we having waffle night again? |
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| 15:25.52 | jsmith | josephscott: You make it sound like it's a chore.... |
| 15:26.02 | jsmith | josephscott: ... but yes, I think it's Wednesday night |
| 15:26.04 | josephscott | waffle night during the week of May 5th isn't bad timing, two days where I like to eat lots :-) |
| 15:26.14 | jsmith | I know, right? |
| 15:26.36 | josephscott | cool, I might be able to make Wednesday night |
| 15:30.05 | SunSparc | josephscott: Did you see this already? http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1jg781/i_am_matt_mullenweg_cofounder_of_wordpress_18_of/cbed1jk |
| 15:30.14 | xuu | does anyone know why uphpu.org is flagged as serving malware for some web filters? |
| 15:31.22 | josephscott | SunSparc: yeah, we have a thread internally that was joking about re-writes |
| 15:31.59 | josephscott | first node.js |
| 15:33.19 | josephscott | then 18 months later may as well rewrite in Go, because, you know, nothing else to do :-) |
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| 15:35.36 | josephscott | jsmith: you going to be in town for OpenWest then? |
| 15:36.18 | SunSparc | josephscott: Haha, nice. |
| 15:37.44 | josephscott | the funny thing is, for something like WordPress, where it is software that you want people to be able to download it and run it just about any where with very little work, PHP still appears to be the best option |
| 15:39.47 | SunSparc | Yes, PHP is pretty ubiquitous. Though Go is opensource also and can easily be recompiled to run on any platform. |
| 15:41.30 | josephscott | so are lots of other languages |
| 15:41.45 | jsmith | josephscott: Aye... flying in tomorrow |
| 15:41.55 | SunSparc | So true. :) |
| 15:41.59 | josephscott | jsmith: cool |
| 15:42.53 | josephscott | I realize that this will sound crazy to people who think PHP is the devil, but even for a brand new project today, if you want the ease and range of deployment of something like WordPress, PHP is probably your best bet |
| 15:44.28 | SunSparc | josephscott: I used to think that too. But Go is rapidly changing my mind. |
| 15:45.19 | josephscott | interesting, you think that Go would provide the same range of deployment options? |
| 15:45.58 | SunSparc | What do you consider to be "deployment options"? |
| 15:48.15 | josephscott | since this is going to make the rounds today, may as well mention it here - http://ma.tt/2014/05/new-funding-for-automattic/ |
| 15:49.08 | josephscott | SunSparc: well, you know, deployment options. Everything from a box in your closet, to Google, to an EC2 instance, GoDaddy, every where inbetween |
| 15:49.32 | josephscott | guess I should include Microsoft on that list as well, but that still sounds funny :-) |
| 15:49.33 | SunSparc | Big money, no whammies! |
| 15:49.44 | josephscott | and more one click installs than I can even imagine |
| 15:50.07 | josephscott | haha, always hope for no whammies :-) |
| 15:51.20 | SunSparc | Yes, go can be compiled for most platforms and once it is compiled, it is like a Windows "exe" file, everything is included, no external dependencies to worry about. |
| 15:51.34 | SunSparc | Those evil whammies. :) |
| 15:55.15 | josephscott | SunSparc: right, I'm aware of that, but I don't see large scale shared hosts being super interested in having lots of Go binaries all trying to listen on port 80, and even if they proxied them, there are still potential memory issues |
| 15:55.45 | josephscott | it ok if a language isn't a perfect fit for everything, heaven knows PHP isn't a perfect fit for everything :-) |
| 15:56.41 | fungus | SunSparc, I haven't looked yet, but does Go have some kind of standardized application server yet? |
| 15:57.26 | fungus | That was one of PHP's biggest strengths, very easy, simple built-in application server from day one. |
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| 16:03.50 | fungus | Looks like AppEngine is it. Most everything is using net/http which it completely the wrong approach for web development. |
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| 16:18.14 | SunSparc | josephscott: Yeah, could be. I have not yet tried deploying large numbers of go apps on shared hosting environments. Might be an issue. |
| 16:20.52 | SunSparc | fungus: I have not really had a need for a standardized application server yet. And for multiple applications we just run them on different ports or run them through a proxy in they need to be web accessible. |
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| 16:23.29 | josephscott | for behind the scenes stuff you can get away with anything you are willing to work for, controlling the environment is a very different situation |
| 16:25.59 | fungus | Right. Lots of Go developers are all re-implementing the same web server code over and over. Really sad. Go is in desperate need of a non AppEngine application server. |
| 16:28.14 | fungus | But that might take a while. Compare to Java, Jetty/Tomcat/Jboss/etc |
| 16:39.01 | josephscott | I have mixed feelings about application servers, I kinda like the shared nothing request model that PHP has |
| 16:46.20 | carmony | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:53.29 | SunSparc | carmony: Address verification servers for SmartyStreets.com |
| 16:54.25 | carmony | Yeah, see I think API type servers could be a good use-case for Go |
| 16:56.42 | SunSparc | Yes, we have been enjoying it immensely. Though I have been playing with some web projects on the side and have decided to try them in Go. So I will see how they do. |
| 16:59.01 | josephscott | one area I'm hoping to read more about is deploying updates to Go setups, does the system require down time in order to do that? |
| 16:59.23 | carmony | see, I think with deploys getting zero-down-time would be tricky |
| 16:59.28 | ninnypants | carmony: are we doing a UPHPU this month or are we skipping because of Open West? |
| 16:59.37 | carmony | ninnypants: what do you guys thing? |
| 16:59.39 | carmony | think* |
| 16:59.46 | carmony | I don't have a speaker lined up yet |
| 17:00.39 | ninnypants | I could go either way, but wouldn't mind getting together with everyone |
| 17:01.31 | carmony | What if we did a hack night? I've started porting the UPHPU site to a statically generated one :P |
| 17:02.29 | SunSparc | josephscott: A Go app would have to be stopped and restarted, but there are ways to minimize the effects. If it is a multi-server environment then it does not really matter. But for a single application it is possible that an end user could see a momentary outage. |
| 17:02.50 | josephscott | yeah, that is something that needs to be dealt with |
| 17:03.00 | josephscott | and multi-server doesn't fix that, it just adds complexity |
| 17:03.16 | SunSparc | We are in the process of rewriting all of our API's from .Net to Go, so we will have quite a bit of experience with this as we move ahead. |
| 17:03.37 | josephscott | interesting move |
| 17:03.52 | SunSparc | :) |
| 17:04.02 | SunSparc | Good move. |
| 17:04.21 | josephscott | my assumption is that with multi-server you are suggesting that you can avoid down time by doing a rolling upgrade via a load balancer |
| 17:04.29 | josephscott | which isn't trivial either |
| 17:04.59 | josephscott | but yes, definitely better than a single server with definite downtime |
| 17:05.22 | josephscott | hmmm, random thought |
| 17:05.25 | SunSparc | Yes, that is what I refer to. Not trivial, but not hard either. |
| 17:05.39 | josephscott | I wonder if something like haproxy or nginx could hold a query briefly, long enough for the back end upgrade to complete |
| 17:05.51 | ninnypants | carmony: we could all volunteer to go help at the GDI event that night too ;) |
| 17:05.57 | josephscott | if that upgrade process was fast enough that might be a reasonable option, even for a single server |
| 17:07.25 | carmony | so I think its just a balance of trade-offs. More complex setup for production in return some some awesome async gains |
| 17:08.04 | SunSparc | I have yet to see a go app take a long time to start up. But that could just be due to our specific projects. |
| 17:08.32 | carmony | we wrote a go-app at work, but for a cli tool |
| 17:08.59 | SunSparc | josephscott: I just came across this post from Brian Ketelsen on a similar topic: http://brianketelsen.com/tag/golang/ |
| 17:09.43 | SunSparc | carmony: Yeah, we have been considering using Go for cli stuff. Traditionally we use bash and python, but Go is pretty darn handy on the command line also. |
| 17:10.27 | josephscott | yep, people are having to re-invent how to do that over and over recently |
| 17:10.37 | josephscott | node.js folks have gone through the same set of issues |
| 17:11.12 | josephscott | one area that I think Go ( and perhaps node.js ) would really shine is async job processing |
| 17:11.32 | SunSparc | On the up side, new and improved processes may be a byproduct of this reinventing. :) |
| 17:11.59 | SunSparc | Yes, async is pretty slick. |
| 17:12.17 | josephscott | perhaps, I haven't seen that yet, the ones I've looked at are certainly more complex than the PHP situation |
| 17:13.19 | josephscott | and I think that goes back to fungus mentioning an application layer |
| 17:13.45 | josephscott | SunSparc: for web stuff, I will say that routing through fast-cgi may end up being good long term bet |
| 17:14.00 | josephscott | then you can leverage a fair bit of existing cool stuff |
| 17:14.08 | SunSparc | I will have a better opinion on that in a couple months. :) |
| 17:14.52 | josephscott | "Zero-downtime deploys with Docker, nginx, and some creative tooling. The best part is that I didn’t have to write a custom reverse proxy." |
| 17:15.00 | josephscott | I'm not sure if he is being serious there or not |
| 17:15.23 | SunSparc | :) |
| 17:15.54 | SunSparc | He could be. Unless he is referring to nginx. |
| 17:16.21 | josephscott | I think some times we can easily over value *new shiny* and discount to much *battle tested and well understood* |
| 17:16.23 | carmony | josephscott: what do I need to talk on? :P |
| 17:16.46 | SunSparc | josephscott: Very true. Shiny can certainly be distracting. |
| 17:16.47 | josephscott | carmony: your async worker talk stuff, I was suggesting that is an area where Go would really, really shine |
| 17:16.57 | carmony | ah, yeah :) |
| 17:17.04 | carmony | It'd be sweet to write a go worker |
| 17:17.08 | josephscott | everything is trade offs of course |
| 17:17.10 | SunSparc | But if nobody plays with the shiny, we do not find out if it is worth using. |
| 17:18.33 | SunSparc | Balancing act. Good thing there are people who enjoy the cutting edge, as well as people who are happy to let others do all the exploring. |
| 17:19.02 | josephscott | yep, trade offs all the way around |
| 17:19.06 | SunSparc | Yep |
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| 17:57.27 | macnewbold1 | just because one side is really shiny and attractive doesn't mean that you won't be scared when you turn it around and look at it from another angle. |
| 17:58.19 | macnewbold1 | carmony: how about inviting a most favorite talk to present again at uphpu for those who missed it? (assuming many of us missed it) |
| 17:59.40 | SunSparc | macnewbold1: True |
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| 18:17.06 | mindjuju | ~seen beandog |
| 18:17.10 | infobot | beandog <~sdibb@gentoo/developer/beandog> was last seen on IRC in channel #uphpu, 34d 1h 16m 13s ago, saying: 'I should do that right now'. |
| 18:17.29 | mindjuju | curious, i thought i just saw him here the other day |
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| 19:38.23 | SunSparc | mindjuju: I saw beandog all over the Twitters today. |
| 19:42.57 | SunSparc | infobot: Has beandog be here recently under an alias? |
| 19:43.15 | SunSparc | been, be, whatever. |
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| 21:47.58 | josephscott | $rlart |
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