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| 15:43.09 | ninnypants | ~rlart |
| 15:43.09 | infobot | cuts off SunSparc's head with a halberd that could have been a little bit sharper |
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| 15:58.46 | mgeary | hey fungus |
| 15:58.54 | mgeary | see my PMs from yesterday, by chance? |
| 15:59.11 | fungus | Yeah, did you find anything. |
| 15:59.23 | mgeary | no. i haven't seen any further udp traffic |
| 15:59.51 | mgeary | when i do, what is the best way to figure out where it's coming from? Do a lsof on that port? |
| 16:00.25 | T4rku5 | Wireshark? |
| 16:00.57 | fungus | The traffic itself should give a big clue as to the source. |
| 16:01.17 | mgeary | i have some logs from a site that was flooded |
| 16:01.48 | fungus | There are two probable ways you have become a cohort in a DDNS attack. Compromise or reflection. |
| 16:01.48 | mgeary | but they didn't seem very conclusive. sending and receiving ports were seemingly random |
| 16:03.26 | fungus | reflection just means you have a poorly configured service that responds with way too much verbosity. DNS is a popular attack vector for this. |
| 16:04.40 | fungus | Audit all services running on your box and triple verify/secure them. |
| 16:07.37 | mgeary | i'm not running bind on this machine, fwiw |
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| 16:11.54 | mgeary | fungus: is there a good way to have the machine notify me if (when) this happens again, if we don't find the cause before it does? |
| 16:12.32 | fungus | some kind of traffic monitoring program. munin perhaps. |
| 16:17.11 | fungus | you can use "lsof -i" to get a list of network services. Go over that list and verify that they are either firewalled off or carefully configured properly. |
| 16:18.07 | mgeary | fungus: this seems fishy to me: |
| 16:18.09 | mgeary | perl 63901 root 0u IPv4 0x38d7cc8 0t0 UDP localhost:60762 |
| 16:18.34 | mgeary | we don't explicitly use perl for anything, though we do use amavisd, which uses perl, i believe |
| 16:18.47 | fungus | ps aux 63901 |
| 16:19.03 | mgeary | nothing |
| 16:19.33 | fungus | ps aux | grep 63901 |
| 16:19.45 | mgeary | nothing |
| 16:20.09 | mgeary | hmm |
| 16:20.12 | mgeary | it's not in lsof anymore |
| 16:20.18 | herlo | lsof still works |
| 16:20.28 | herlo | lol |
| 16:20.56 | SunSparc | ~read herlo |
| 16:21.29 | herlo | ~lart SunSparc |
| 16:21.29 | infobot | offers SunSparc some herring |
| 16:21.55 | HumanCell | Is the PHP group using the http://www.meetup.com/Utah-Open-Source/ Meetup for the meetings? |
| 16:22.08 | herlo | HumanCell: they are |
| 16:22.09 | SunSparc | infobot: Thank you for the herring. |
| 16:22.09 | infobot | no worries, SunSparc |
| 16:22.36 | HumanCell | Is the October meeting up to date? |
| 16:22.51 | herlo | that I would not know |
| 16:23.07 | HumanCell | I'm not seeing any upcoming meetings ... :-( |
| 16:23.34 | fungus | mgeary, don't just look for suspicious things, audit all of them. Only run things you need to run, and carefully configure/secure/lock down the services you need. |
| 16:26.11 | fungus | But also look for suspicious stuff too in case it's a sign you are compromised. |
| 16:53.52 | mindjuju | shesh, what's with everybody getting clean-cut respectible grade school pictures for facebook ( jsmith & josephscott, et al.) |
| 16:54.07 | josephscott | :-) |
| 16:54.12 | jsmith | mindjuju: Me?!? |
| 16:54.21 | mindjuju | yeah, you both |
| 16:54.34 | mindjuju | but especially you jsmith, you had hackergotchi, now respectable |
| 16:55.11 | jsmith | mindjuju: I haven't changed my facebook photo in a while... and before that, it was a picture of me frowning at a computer screen (working on trademark guidelines) |
| 16:55.25 | jsmith | mindjuju: I haven't had my hackergotchi for Facebook in a couple of years |
| 16:55.52 | mindjuju | really? |
| 16:56.16 | mindjuju | i don't think i have enough hair for a respectable picture |
| 16:57.52 | fungus | Do you need hair to be respectable?\ |
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| 16:58.10 | mindjuju | lex luther, no hair, he's evil |
| 16:58.30 | mindjuju | can you name one good guy with no hair, and kojak doesn't count |
| 16:58.38 | jsmith | Jean-Luc Picard? |
| 16:58.45 | fungus | Professor Xavier |
| 16:58.57 | mindjuju | touche jsmith |
| 16:59.02 | jsmith | mindjuju: :-) |
| 16:59.04 | TuxToaster_ | ~rlart |
| 16:59.04 | infobot | chops mgeary in half with a free AOL CD |
| 17:02.24 | fungus | http://protagonist.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Bald_Heroes |
| 17:03.57 | mindjuju | thx fungus! |
| 17:04.56 | fungus | hrm, not very many, but still enough to disprove the causation. |
| 17:16.20 | mindjuju | so looking at those photos, i think the only one i can pull off is dr. henry jones |
| 17:24.45 | fungus | wig? |
| 17:26.06 | mindjuju | i've got hair back there like that |
| 17:26.26 | mindjuju | mine's more dishevled, but if i trim it back it'd be similar |
| 17:26.30 | fungus | if you wear a wig, then your options open up hugely. |
| 17:29.09 | mindjuju | yeah, i'm not sure about a wig |
| 17:29.10 | mindjuju | if i'm going to gray and eventually lose it, i'm going to do it in style |
| 17:29.10 | mindjuju | no dyes, no lies |
| 17:29.10 | mindjuju | any how, here's how i'd look in a wig and a bolo - http://tomrobinsonblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/napoleon-dynamite-and-pedro.jpg?w=640 |
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| 17:34.09 | fungus | I'm going to dye and lie until the day I die. |
| 17:35.50 | fungus | oh, I was thinking you were looking for Halloween costumes. lol |
| 18:05.29 | TuxToaster_ | fungus: lol |
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| 18:41.31 | fungus | What's everyone's opinion about Ross Ulbricht (Silk Road - online drug marketplace)? |
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| 18:42.56 | DexterTheDragon | that he had poor opsec? |
| 18:43.10 | josephscott | no one would surrender to the dread pirate Ross |
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| 18:43.47 | fungus | heh, true. |
| 18:44.30 | fungus | any opinions about his extremist libertarian ideals? |
| 18:47.58 | mindjuju | where his ideas published any where? |
| 18:48.38 | fungus | http://austincut.com/2012/01/silk-road-a-vicious-blow-to-the-war-on-drugs/ |
| 18:49.08 | fungus | published a long time ago, but recently linked to him. |
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| 18:51.07 | fungus | "This is about real freedom. Freedom from violence, from arbitrary morals and law, from corrupt centralized authorities, and from centralization altogether. While Silk Road and Bitcoin may fade or be crushed by their enemies, we’ve seen what free, leaderless systems can do. You can only chop off so many heads." |
| 18:53.31 | SunSparc | "Down with the Aristocracy! Long live the Republic!" |
| 18:53.55 | mindjuju | i was just oging to say we should ask SunSparc to opine |
| 18:55.05 | SunSparc | How exactly do they make me feel more safe? |
| 18:55.36 | fungus | Don't you feel more safe w/ body cavity searches? |
| 18:56.22 | josephscott | it isn't perfect, but I'd rather not be free from centralization |
| 18:56.36 | josephscott | if I wanted that I'd go move to an empty island some where :-) |
| 18:56.55 | SunSparc | Sometimes, that actually sounds quite appealing. |
| 18:57.00 | mindjuju | i love that that little boy made it past tsa checkpoint, etc to the vegas-bound plane and made it to vegas... without a ticket nor parents (he is 9) |
| 18:57.19 | josephscott | funny complaining about authority, using a system that had several layers built by the fed gov't |
| 18:57.32 | fungus | lol |
| 18:58.33 | fungus | SunSparc, I disagree. I am quite happy and comfortable in my centralized, restricted, slightly "less free" society. |
| 18:58.48 | josephscott | trade offs, always trade offs |
| 18:58.56 | fungus | exactly. |
| 19:00.00 | fungus | ultimate freedom, means danger of murder, theft, extortion, etc. |
| 19:00.55 | SunSparc | fungus: Oh yes, I am too. Currently. I live like a king in a very beautiful and peaceful part of this amazing world. |
| 19:02.48 | SunSparc | I only get antsy when I see the foundations of my blessed life being eroded with each new law that is passed. |
| 19:03.27 | SunSparc | It is not my present that I am worried about. It is my future. |
| 19:04.59 | fungus | but your blessed life comes from the foundation of laws that have been passed over time. |
| 19:05.18 | SunSparc | Indeed |
| 19:08.23 | mindjuju | in the times that i've spoken with SunSparc, i never got the feeling that he was opposed to progress, more that he was being vigilent with the rights he allots to the government |
| 19:08.29 | mindjuju | correct me if i'm wrong SunSparc |
| 19:08.52 | SunSparc | Correct |
| 19:11.48 | SunSparc | Just because the government CAN make laws, does not mean they should. |
| 19:16.02 | fungus | And that is exactly why we have a representative government. |
| 19:16.50 | SunSparc | Yep. And it is a decent form of government at that. |
| 19:17.00 | SunSparc | One of the best, actually. |
| 19:17.04 | mindjuju | hmm: id argue yes and no |
| 19:17.29 | mindjuju | representative government does help keep things in order, but a free press is critical to this process |
| 19:17.35 | SunSparc | The best being a monarchy, so long as the monarch was benevolent. |
| 19:18.01 | mindjuju | starting with bush and extended into obama, i've been worried about the press's ability to report impartially, and i've been worried about whistleblowers |
| 19:18.29 | mindjuju | not to mention, representative government + lobbyist is not good for representative government |
| 19:18.53 | mindjuju | (there again, the press is good to catch those type of things -- until recently that is) |
| 19:19.27 | fungus | I meant the idea of representative government is what keeps government making only laws that the people want. I didn't say that our current implementation is ideal. |
| 19:19.37 | mindjuju | ah |
| 19:19.56 | unum | there are "representative" form of government that are very different from ours |
| 19:20.00 | SunSparc | Yeah, if the represented keep tabs on the representatives. |
| 19:20.08 | unum | though I suspect most would call those oligarchies |
| 19:20.29 | unum | but you can have a self appointing senate like the Romans did |
| 19:21.15 | unum | actually I guess representative may imply elections, but republican does not |
| 19:21.30 | fungus | exactly. |
| 19:23.11 | unum | personally I have a hard time understanding how anarchy can work |
| 19:23.13 | fungus | but the US's implementation has serious flaws currently. Too much dependency upon campaign finance instead of dependence upon the represented. |
| 19:23.25 | unum | it seems that some sort of cartel always comes into existance |
| 19:23.32 | SunSparc | Anyone know how many federal laws there are in the USA? My Googlefu must be waning. |
| 19:23.36 | fungus | unum, I agree whole heartedly |
| 19:23.51 | unum | SunSparc: probably depends on how you define "law" |
| 19:24.16 | SunSparc | Law: signed by the president. |
| 19:24.56 | DexterTheDragon | "Estimates of the current size of the body of federal criminal law vary. It has been reported that the Congressional Research Service cannot even count the current number of federal crimes. These laws are scattered in over 50 titles of the United States Code, encompassing roughly 27,000 pages." |
| 19:25.25 | SunSparc | Yep, that is about what I have found. |
| 19:26.09 | SunSparc | And of course there are lot of hits about the "40,000" new laws added in 2012 alone. |
| 19:26.44 | SunSparc | There is something inherently broken in a system that thinks it needs so many laws. |
| 19:28.08 | unum | criminal laws are only a small subset of existing law |
| 19:28.15 | SunSparc | Yep |
| 19:28.37 | unum | and do you consider each bill as law or each section |
| 19:28.44 | unum | or sub section |
| 19:29.52 | unum | is the fee schedule for medicare one law, or do you count each procedure as a law |
| 19:30.14 | SunSparc | A bill is not a law. A bill is a proposed law. A bill only becomes a law when it passes both houses and is signed by the president. |
| 19:30.30 | SunSparc | Technically. |
| 19:30.53 | SunSparc | Though there is the issue of judicial rulings and precedence. |
| 19:32.13 | unum | once it's signed is it one law? |
| 19:33.20 | unum | judicial rulings and precedence = common law |
| 19:33.35 | SunSparc | As far as I understand. :) |
| 19:33.38 | unum | bill passed by legislative process and signed by president = statute |
| 19:33.43 | unum | not sure I spelled that right |
| 19:34.14 | unum | some how I doubt 40,000 bills were signed by the president in 2012 |
| 19:34.19 | unum | I think that person is using a different definition |
| 19:34.27 | SunSparc | Could be. |
| 19:36.28 | SunSparc | The point is, there seems to be far too much of trying to control other people. So much effort is put into making sure that people cannot do something "wrong". |
| 19:37.21 | SunSparc | Seems like it would be much more effective to just deal with bad choices instead of preventing bad choices. |
| 19:37.41 | ninnypants | ~400 if my guestimate from this document is correct http://www.leg.wa.gov/senate/committees/documents/reports/billspassed/2012.pdf |
| 19:37.41 | infobot | ninnypants: that's too long |
| 19:37.58 | mindjuju | i thin kthe point unum i saying though, is that that number is exaggerated, so i computed here that 40,000 (laws) require at least 20 seconds to sign each for a grand total of 8 million (said in dr.evil voice) seconds |
| 19:38.09 | mindjuju | seems to break down to 11hrs a day to sign all of 'em |
| 19:39.06 | SunSparc | That would be one tired signature hand. :) |
| 19:39.14 | unum | http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/thomas |
| 19:39.15 | mindjuju | yup |
| 19:39.22 | SunSparc | Even still, 400 new laws in one year. Why? |
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| 19:39.35 | unum | 283 bills signed and passed in 2011-2012 |
| 19:39.46 | unum | ninnypants: looks like you are on the state of washing page |
| 19:40.01 | SunSparc | Have things really changed that much since 1776 that we need to be adding so many laws each year? |
| 19:40.28 | SunSparc | herlo: #utah is for computer questions ;) |
| 19:40.31 | ninnypants | unum: yep just noticed the "Wasthington State" in the logo on the first page |
| 19:40.49 | unum | SunSparc: I'd argue yes, mostly because of technology, especially on the federal level |
| 19:40.52 | herlo | SunSparc: no it's not |
| 19:41.04 | SunSparc | herlo: lol |
| 19:41.06 | herlo | SunSparc: that's what it should be, but that's not how it exists |
| 19:41.29 | herlo | SunSparc: #uphpu spills over from time to time if you ask me |
| 19:41.34 | herlo | it's the new #utah sometimes |
| 19:41.45 | SunSparc | Yep |
| 19:41.58 | ninnypants | herlo: I didn't think you needed computer help |
| 19:42.10 | DexterTheDragon | psssh we only ever talk about PHP code in here |
| 19:42.19 | herlo | ninnypants: I don't usually |
| 19:42.21 | SunSparc | unum: Are you saying that technology changes the way humans should treat and interact with each other? |
| 19:42.27 | herlo | DexterTheDragon: we totally should :) |
| 19:42.37 | SunSparc | DexterTheDragon: lol |
| 19:43.08 | fungus | SunSparc, Yes, technology does change that. |
| 19:43.12 | herlo | the difference is politics about tech vs straight politics. I see no tech in this current discussion, but I'm just being an ass. |
| 19:43.21 | shalkie | herlo: Doesn't this really belong in #utah? :-P |
| 19:43.42 | herlo | shalkie: exactly |
| 19:43.51 | ninnypants | herlo: isn't that your constant state of being? |
| 19:43.54 | herlo | ~kick shalkie |
| 19:43.54 | infobot | ACTION kicks shalkie |
| 19:44.04 | herlo | ninnypants: no, only on Mondays when UPHPU annoys me enough |
| 19:44.21 | herlo | or at least the topic in #uphpu :D |
| 19:44.28 | fungus | shalkie, it does generally, but I prefer these peeps over #utah peeps. Generally more reasonable and interesting. |
| 19:44.30 | ninnypants | oh I guess every day I've run into you must've been a monday ;) |
| 19:44.39 | herlo | fungus: agreed |
| 19:44.49 | SunSparc | fungus: How does technology change the way humans should treat and interact with each other? |
| 19:45.00 | unum | SunSparc: I'm saying it changes how many people with interact with |
| 19:45.39 | unum | s/with/we |
| 19:46.23 | unum | 200 years ago if you bought beef the cow was probably raised and slaughter with in a 10 miles of where you lived |
| 19:46.26 | ninnypants | shalkie: I don't remember if I ever actualy sent you the stuff on running an archive warior but you can find out about the project here http://www.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=Main_Page |
| 19:46.49 | unum | so state laws were much effective in managing that transaction |
| 19:46.51 | fungus | SunSparc, one example is old privacy laws, they didn't include internet communication. |
| 19:47.25 | unum | laws also didn't include information on a how freeway should be built |
| 19:47.27 | fungus | Without updating those, the government can spy on everything we do online |
| 19:47.58 | unum | laws didn't include information about how a car should be built in order to be driven on a freeway |
| 19:49.09 | unum | laws didn't exist about maintaing a jet fighter |
| 19:49.13 | SunSparc | Should there be laws about beef transactions and how a car should be built or driven? |
| 19:49.15 | unum | or passenger liner |
| 19:49.52 | fungus | SunSparc, to maintain the safety of the masses? Yes! |
| 19:49.58 | unum | asymmetric knowledge is a huge problem in the market place |
| 19:50.01 | SunSparc | Really? |
| 19:50.04 | ninnypants | SunSparc: I would say yes because it's not just you that you would be endangering |
| 19:50.22 | unum | with out regulation to manage it you prevent a lot of products from existing |
| 19:50.34 | SunSparc | If a company is making faulty vehicles, you think people will keep buying them? |
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| 19:51.09 | SunSparc | If privacy laws need to be updated, perhaps they are too specific? |
| 19:51.10 | mindjuju | SunSparc: sometimes there isn't a choice -- have you seen the movie Tucker? |
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| 19:51.30 | unum | the theory is called market for lemons |
| 19:51.31 | SunSparc | mindjuju: Nope, have not see that one. |
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| 19:51.49 | unum | and home electronics may be a better example |
| 19:51.58 | unum | I don't know if you read bruce schneier, but he talks about this |
| 19:52.02 | mindjuju | the quick on it is that the 4 major car makers didn't want to put in seatbelts nor test their cars for safety |
| 19:52.12 | mindjuju | Tucker cars had seatbelts and were infintely safer |
| 19:52.30 | mindjuju | worth a watch, though in this case government was in cahoots with big auto |
| 19:52.42 | SunSparc | unum: I read Bruce every so often. |
| 19:53.11 | SunSparc | mindjuju: What was the lesson to be learned from Tucker? |
| 19:53.21 | unum | a few weeks back was an article about a baby monitoring system, where he makes the argument for regulation, because ya people keep buing those bad systems |
| 19:53.31 | unum | because they don't know how to evaluate the good ones |
| 19:53.33 | mindjuju | that sometimes corporations don't act in the best interest of the people |
| 19:53.55 | unum | libertarians would argue that you just by hackers insuaraunce as part of buying the device, but where is this insuaraunce? |
| 19:53.58 | mindjuju | despite the free market as you were noting as an arguement |
| 19:54.04 | unum | mindjuju: sometimes? |
| 19:54.14 | SunSparc | Corporations "never" act in the best interest of the people. Corporations exist to make money. |
| 19:54.34 | mindjuju | i wouldn't go THAT far |
| 19:54.36 | josephscott | corporations never act at all, people do :-) |
| 19:54.47 | SunSparc | josephscott: Exactly. |
| 19:55.14 | josephscott | but I never bought into the "corporations are people" line of thinking either |
| 19:56.04 | SunSparc | If I buy a product that is crap, I throw it out or pursue the company for recompense. Either way I do not see how a govenment entity needs to be involved. |
| 19:56.54 | mindjuju | see, that's the argument i was pinning my comments to |
| 19:57.01 | mindjuju | sometimes you do need government involvment |
| 19:57.10 | SunSparc | Why? |
| 19:57.16 | mindjuju | what about the melamine-laced dog food from china that killed hundreds of dogs here |
| 19:57.19 | DexterTheDragon | SunSparc: what internet company do you have? |
| 19:57.19 | mindjuju | how do you sue china? |
| 19:57.39 | mindjuju | that just happened like what 2, 3 years ago? |
| 19:58.06 | unum | you file in federal court! |
| 19:58.09 | SunSparc | mindjuju: Well for one I would not buy dog food from that company anymore. |
| 19:58.13 | mindjuju | btw, FDA just approved China to make our Chicken Nuggets |
| 19:58.15 | fungus | SunSparc, the only reason you can "pursue" the company is due to government laws. |
| 19:58.17 | unum | at least according to a little document called the constitution |
| 19:58.17 | SunSparc | DexterTheDragon: ComCast |
| 19:58.24 | mindjuju | Sunsparc, you can't tell! |
| 19:58.35 | mindjuju | like with the chicken nuggests, no label saying Made in China required! |
| 19:58.44 | mindjuju | go look it up, chicken nuggests just happened like 2 months ago |
| 19:59.03 | mindjuju | pesky FDA, never liked them any how |
| 19:59.07 | unum | it's really easy for companies to assume a new identy |
| 19:59.12 | SunSparc | fungus: I disagree, I can "pursue" any company by talking to the people there, without going through any laws or governments. |
| 19:59.19 | unum | I can't even remember enron's due name |
| 19:59.33 | fungus | SunSparc, w/o laws there is no requirement for them to work with you. |
| 19:59.37 | unum | SunSparc: so you call them and say "I want a refund" they say get lost |
| 19:59.41 | unum | then what do you do? |
| 20:00.44 | SunSparc | fungus: The only requirement for a company to work with anyone is because they have money and are potential buyers. Buyers have networks. I do not like a company, I tell my friends, that company loses business. |
| 20:00.55 | mindjuju | at one point, the FDA did good work, if you have doubts, read the Jungle by Upton Sinclair |
| 20:01.05 | SunSparc | unum: I chalk it up to stupid tax and move on with my life. |
| 20:01.32 | SunSparc | unum: I also tell my network about it. |
| 20:01.39 | fungus | SunSparc, what if that stupid tax is the cost of your child's life due to faulty product? Is that acceptable? |
| 20:02.06 | SunSparc | fungus: If my child is dead, no amount of legislation is going to bring them back. |
| 20:02.38 | SunSparc | Should I be angry for the rest of my life? If so I am not the winner. |
| 20:02.38 | fungus | Right, but don't you deserve some form of compensation, or legal requirement for the company to protect future children. |
| 20:03.19 | fungus | SunSparc, Not everything needs to be regulated, but not everything should be unregulated. There is a balance somewhere. |
| 20:03.25 | SunSparc | I do not see how I would deserve anything unless I signed a contract with that company that stipulated expectations. |
| 20:03.42 | unum | the problem with the "stupid tax" argument is that you often keep paying everytime you buy any product |
| 20:03.57 | unum | it's far cheaper for companies to sell bad products then good ones |
| 20:04.14 | unum | so the bad products swamp the market and prevent any "good" products from existing |
| 20:04.37 | unum | because no one understands why they should pay more for a product that seems identical to them |
| 20:05.13 | SunSparc | Sure, and the quality of products only goes up or down depending on the demand of the market. If people are not willing to do some research into who they are buying from and what they are buying and only care about a low price, the quality is driven to rock bottom. |
| 20:05.29 | unum | for example if I go to the store and see a pound of beef for $3 and an other pound for $4 how do I know to buy the $4 one because it doesn't have e. coli |
| 20:05.41 | unum | SunSparc: exactly |
| 20:05.53 | unum | and that's what happens because we can't research EVERYTHING |
| 20:06.18 | unum | I can't possibly be an expert in every single item I buy, while the person selling the item CAN be an expert at tricking me |
| 20:06.28 | SunSparc | But we can rely on private third parties that have earned our trust as consumer informists. |
| 20:06.35 | TuxToaster_ | ~rlart |
| 20:06.35 | infobot | pours gasoline all over carmony, ignites the fire, and then enjoys some toasty marshmallows with the glorious blaze |
| 20:06.44 | carmony | gah |
| 20:06.56 | unum | except they have the same flaw, how do I pick a trusted company to do that |
| 20:07.19 | unum | how do I know they will remain trusted? |
| 20:07.19 | fungus | SunSparc, and we do have that. But there are some things that must be regulated because they are too dangerous and/or problematic for that system to work. |
| 20:07.25 | SunSparc | In general, we have a society of consumers who take no responsibility whatsover for the things we buy. |
| 20:07.36 | unum | why don't they exist for the home electronics market(the hacking problem I mentioned earlier) |
| 20:08.15 | SunSparc | unum: consumer informist for electronics? |
| 20:08.40 | unum | SunSparc: a company that will certify my device won't be hacked |
| 20:09.15 | SunSparc | fungus: "IF" indeed there are things that fall into your category of "must be regulated", why must it be a government body that does the regulating? |
| 20:09.59 | SunSparc | unum: Perhaps there are. Or perhaps there will be. Or perhaps you just found a new niche and you can be the proud owner of a business in a new category. :) |
| 20:10.16 | fungus | Because they have a monopoly on force. No other organization can use force. |
| 20:10.59 | SunSparc | fungus: Ugh, why must there be force. :( |
| 20:11.16 | SunSparc | unum: I do not think it is possible to create an unhackable device. |
| 20:11.19 | fungus | Because sometimes it's required. Some people are bad. |
| 20:12.00 | TuxToaster_ | ~8ball is fungus trying to trick us? |
| 20:12.00 | infobot | I'm sure of it. |
| 20:12.15 | TuxToaster_ | ~8ball are you paranoid? |
| 20:12.15 | infobot | I'm not sure. |
| 20:12.19 | TuxToaster_ | lol |
| 20:12.52 | SunSparc | People, yes. I agree. Some people are indeed bad. In that case, we take the individuals involved and punish them for hurting other people. |
| 20:12.56 | mindjuju | in the case of drugs (before big Pharma), which citizen has a team of scientist to vet drugs? |
| 20:13.19 | unum | SunSparc: how do you do punish them with out force? |
| 20:13.28 | mindjuju | remember what life was like before FDA? saleman touring the USA selling Grandma's Flu serum? |
| 20:13.49 | unum | mindjuju: you're back! |
| 20:14.10 | mindjuju | just for a spot, i really must limit my arguments today, i'm double scheduled :( |
| 20:14.11 | SunSparc | unum: I did not say not to use force to punish. If someone is indeed found guilty of infringing the rights of another they should be forced into public service or prison. |
| 20:14.58 | SunSparc | mindjuju: In the 60's people chose to be their own scientists and tested drugs on themselves. :) |
| 20:14.59 | fungus | you used that word again, I don't think it means what you think it means. |
| 20:15.46 | TuxToaster_ | lol |
| 20:15.51 | SunSparc | :) |
| 20:16.00 | fungus | If the public is allowed to use force, nothing prevents private armies, mafia, mass killing, etc. |
| 20:16.03 | unum | what if someone knowingly sells tainted food and people die? |
| 20:16.18 | unum | is that not infrining on the rights of others |
| 20:16.31 | SunSparc | fungus: Agreed. This is what local government and law enforcement is for. |
| 20:16.45 | mindjuju | until the manufactor is across state lines |
| 20:16.50 | mindjuju | then what? |
| 20:16.59 | SunSparc | unum: Then they are put in jail and sentenced to community service. |
| 20:17.18 | SunSparc | unum: That is what the fed is for. |
| 20:17.24 | unum | agreed |
| 20:17.52 | SunSparc | See, I am not saying we do not need the fed. I am saying the fed is out of control huge and making far more decisions FOR the people than they should. |
| 20:18.24 | SunSparc | "The people" have become complacent and forgotten the cost of freedom. |
| 20:18.58 | SunSparc | The people have forgotten how to think and act for themselves. |
| 20:19.15 | SunSparc | Everything has become the job of "the goverment". |
| 20:19.20 | unum | maybe you should focus on specific laws you'd like change rather than generalizations about having to many laws |
| 20:19.30 | SunSparc | And of course by "Everything" I am obviously exagerating. |
| 20:19.45 | SunSparc | unum: Absolutely. |
| 20:20.09 | SunSparc | But I would like to stop the hemorraghing first. :) |
| 20:20.35 | unum | see that's just plain silly |
| 20:20.36 | SunSparc | Can fix the broken heart when the artery is bleeding out. |
| 20:20.57 | unum | a new "law" has to be passed to keep a lot existing stuff going on |
| 20:20.57 | SunSparc | unum: I know right! :) |
| 20:21.21 | unum | you really need to get specific in critizism |
| 20:21.45 | SunSparc | Nah, too much work, especially for this medium. |
| 20:22.39 | mindjuju | we should go to Chinese food this Friday at ninnypants 's China Wall |
| 20:22.41 | josephscott | haha, I was just going to say: but it is so much easier to paint with broad strokes, ignoring the details |
| 20:22.58 | unum | and so completely worthless as well |
| 20:23.20 | SunSparc | josephscott: Yep, details are a lot more work. |
| 20:23.23 | ninnypants | mindjuju: I could probably swing that |
| 20:23.31 | mindjuju | rock on |
| 20:23.36 | SunSparc | What?! I am out of town this week. :( |
| 20:23.48 | mindjuju | dag! |
| 20:24.12 | SunSparc | But I am sure you could still have a fun political conversation without me. |
| 20:24.13 | SunSparc | :) |
| 20:25.21 | unum | I could really get behind and open format law |
| 20:25.57 | ninnypants | open format law? |
| 20:26.38 | unum | Gov. Romney did it as an excutive order I think, but basically the government must save all data in an open format |
| 20:27.10 | unum | or a format that the government has control over |
| 20:27.25 | unum | Pres. Obama promised to do something similiar |
| 20:27.32 | unum | of course he promised to do a lot of things.... |
| 20:27.32 | ninnypants | oh ok I have heard of that and I could definitely get behind that |
| 20:28.21 | SunSparc | unum: True dat |
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| 20:31.10 | SunSparc | Hmmm |
| 20:31.51 | mindjuju | if i recall, microsoft had big concerns with moving to open format |
| 20:31.55 | josephscott | I think the state of Utah still uses a WordPerfect format for many of their docs |
| 20:31.55 | ninnypants | next step tax write offs for accepted pull requests |
| 20:32.10 | mindjuju | no more .doc -> .odf |
| 20:32.11 | ninnypants | mindjuju: I'm sure they did |
| 20:32.20 | SunSparc | lol |
| 20:32.22 | mindjuju | once again, lobbyist strike :( |
| 20:34.10 | ninnypants | josephscott: they're at least using open formats for utah.gov/data/ |
| 20:35.00 | SunSparc | Pretty background. |
| 20:35.33 | unum | josephscott: the legislature uses wordperfect the governors office uses word |
| 20:35.51 | josephscott | sounds like loads of fun |
| 20:35.54 | unum | at least that's the way it was when I presented the idea of open formats to the technology council |
| 20:36.23 | unum | a lobbyist was there from novell he said they were trying to go through the governors office like happened in MA |
| 20:36.32 | unum | he's now a state rep |
| 20:36.36 | unum | I was going to follow up with him on it |
| 20:36.43 | unum | he's also my former stake president |
| 20:37.09 | unum | actually he wasn't at that meeting I ran into him at a later meeting and he told me about his efforts |
| 20:37.40 | unum | I haven't been to a committee meeting in a while |
| 20:42.46 | SunSparc | Leaving early. Later all. |
| 20:47.39 | fungus | lol http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/7/4812630/fox-news-shepard-smith-news-deck |
| 20:55.10 | unum | seeing that windows 8 commercial reminds me of this: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/business/deciding-who-sees-students-data.html?hp&_r=1 |
| 21:00.24 | shalkie | fungus: Now I want one of those tablets just for card games. |
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| 21:04.07 | fungus | I just wanna point and laugh when their arms get tired of moving 2-3 feet to load a new tweet. :) |
| 21:05.02 | fungus | The Minority Report UI looks really cool on camera, but is absolutely terrible in real-life |
| 21:08.41 | shalkie | Oh, they could introduce a tredmill for scroll functionality! |
| 21:09.01 | ninnypants | fungus: yeah even something like a touch screen laptop seems silly to me but a touch screen the size of my tv sounds horrible |
| 21:12.01 | ninnypants | unum: seems like an interesting concept though really it should have already been solved at the school level |
| 21:15.01 | unum | ninnypants: you mean individual schools should hire programmers to write similiar software? |
| 21:19.43 | ninnypants | unum: the software was just a data store so you would think that a good general data store for a school would have been figured out by now |
| 21:21.04 | fungus | ninnypants, But there isn't. That's what the article states. Schools don't have a good data store, it's fragmented, incomplete, unshareable, and in many cases unusable. |
| 21:21.56 | fungus | Why duplicate that work in every school district, multiplying the cost to taxpayers? |
| 21:22.11 | ninnypants | fungus: yep that's why I was saying it should have already been solved |
| 21:23.14 | fungus | But like the article said, it's important for the individual school districts to clearly define data/privacy policies before considering something like that. |
| 21:23.14 | ninnypants | I'm not saying each school should solve the problem itself I was just saying you would think that by now a good data store would have been designed and propagated out to other schools |
| 21:23.29 | fungus | ah, I understand. |
| 21:23.41 | fungus | Have you ever seen a school website? lol |
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| 21:23.56 | ninnypants | sadly I have |
| 21:24.09 | fungus | Usually Frontpage type garbage maintained by the "computer teacher". |
| 21:24.17 | ninnypants | I even worked on some which is about as bad as using them |
| 21:24.58 | fungus | But more importantly, that data/privacy policy should have been defined decades ago. |
| 21:24.59 | ninnypants | we could write some php but that php then had to be copied and pasted into some weird cms thing |
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| 21:30.00 | unum | ya it amazes me how long it's taken some industries to catch up |
| 21:30.22 | unum | but then I realize how briefly this stuff has really been around |
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| 21:30.38 | unum | and how much the average pay is for a software architect |
| 21:30.39 | ninnypants | would be interesting to see if a standard data store would make it easier for kids that needed to switch schools |
| 21:31.05 | unum | ninnypants: that sound even more evil than common core :) |
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| 21:31.45 | unum | for those who don't know, a bunch of states got together to standardize their curriculmn and a bunch of people are freaking out about it |
| 21:32.07 | clintber_ | was I missing a political debate in here? |
| 21:34.57 | mindjuju | i wouldn't generalize it in that way |
| 21:35.07 | mindjuju | some of their arguments have merit |
| 21:36.15 | mindjuju | hard for me to tell if this is a teacher issue we're having or common core, but I'm not a fan of this year's schooling |
| 21:36.23 | mindjuju | so we're supplementing |
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| 21:39.54 | ninnypants | I haven't followed the common core stuff too closely |
| 21:46.42 | ninnypants | unum: what subjects does common core cover? |
| 21:51.39 | mindjuju | in utah, i believe it is math, english and possibly science |
| 21:51.56 | mindjuju | i don't remember off hand, but i'm on the uea fb group and there is a site that has all the info |
| 21:52.04 | mindjuju | + teaching plans, etc |
| 21:52.52 | mindjuju | i'm pretty sure that Utah state legis DIDN'T adopt the whole CC |
| 21:55.22 | ninnypants | I think the idea of a common core for those subjects is good but I think accounting for the fact that kids learn at different rates and that we shouldn't be teaching for tests is where it kind of breaks down |
| 22:02.40 | unum | ninnypants: was does commoncore have to with tests? |
| 22:03.43 | ninnypants | unum: I'm not sure it has anything to do with tests but it seems that with most things now there are standardized tests that students need to pass for schools to be rated well |
| 22:04.09 | eggyknap | .oO(homeschooling, FTW) |
| 22:04.43 | unum | ninnypants: most things now? you mean no child left behind? Which is one thing. |
| 22:05.18 | unum | I talked to my wife about home schooling. I think she actually has the ability to quite a bit of it. |
| 22:05.43 | unum | but it's not something she really wanted to do, so we decided to leave it in the hands of the professionals |
| 22:10.54 | ninnypants | unum: true guess it's just most of what I hear about when I hear about standardizing curiculums |
| 22:11.38 | mindjuju | CC DOESN'T have a standardized test at this time, but it is planning to have one in 2014 or 2015 |
| 22:11.51 | unum | ah well there we go |
| 22:12.39 | unum | mindjuju: is there a rating system, or is it just something be created to match the already existing teaching plans? |
| 22:13.02 | mindjuju | hmm, that's a good question, i don't have a lot of details on it, but i do have the page saved somewhere |
| 22:13.09 | unum | of course the rating system won't be tied to federal funds like the NCLB is, since it's not a federal program |
| 22:13.21 | mindjuju | usually mgeary and I talk a lot about education so i save links to talk to him about |
| 22:14.06 | mindjuju | unum - http://www.corestandards.org/resources/frequently-asked-questions |
| 22:14.20 | mindjuju | find on page for "test" it's the second reference |
| 22:14.48 | mindjuju | i don't know of any other sources on the kinds of assessments planned, but i haven't honestly searched aggressively for it |
| 22:15.16 | mindjuju | i've been more concerned about curriculum |
| 22:16.05 | eggyknap | unum: I of course won't debate your particular parenting decisions. I hesitate to call teachers "professionals", though, not because they're not professional, but because they're so thoroughly hampered by various regulations that their professionalism -- or lack thereof -- hardly matters. |
| 22:16.09 | mindjuju | here is where i get my info on CC and UEA http://www.uen.org/core/ |
| 22:17.06 | eggyknap | UEN seems hardly likely to be an unbiased source |
| 22:17.29 | mindjuju | woops, my bad, this is the link for cc - http://www.uen.org/commoncore/ |
| 22:18.03 | mindjuju | well true eggyknap, i'm not using it as a source to find out more about CC |
| 22:18.12 | mindjuju | i'm using it as a source for : What is being implemented |
| 22:18.16 | mindjuju | not if it is any good or no |
| 22:18.17 | eggyknap | OIC |
| 22:18.20 | mindjuju | ;) |
| 22:18.37 | mindjuju | like i say above, we're having a quality of education issue this year, not sure if its the teacher or the CC |
| 22:18.48 | mindjuju | to soon to tell, but we're supplementing pretty heavily |
| 22:20.21 | unum | I can't think of a more authortative source for commoncore than uen |
| 22:20.45 | unum | why would you go anywhere else for information when you could there? |
| 22:21.18 | mindjuju | i think eggyknap's concern was quality of education, not what is being taught |
| 22:21.35 | mindjuju | makes sense to me that you'd want unbiased sources to discern from |
| 22:22.18 | eggyknap | unum: Because I misread it as UEA :) |
| 22:22.23 | unum | ou |
| 22:22.24 | unum | oh |
| 22:23.05 | unum | I'm a big fan of going directly to the source when you can |
| 22:23.28 | eggyknap | I'll admit knowing essentially nothing about what UE*N* is. |
| 22:23.53 | unum | it's part of the state |
| 22:24.06 | unum | but that site links to the official common core website |
| 22:24.26 | unum | so if you actually want to see the teaching material that is being proposed you can go look at it for yourself |
| 22:24.51 | unum | I'm a big fan of going directly to the source for stuff |
| 22:25.44 | unum | it is hard to find an unbiased source about the quality of education, as I mentioned a few weeks ago research has shown that it's pretty much impossible to find information on "value added" by various schools |
| 22:29.33 | mindjuju | that's true, i usually poll several sources and triangulate from there |
| 22:29.40 | mindjuju | it's not perfect, but it works well for us |
| 22:43.19 | fungus | before you can measure quality of education you have to define and agree upon the metrics. |
| 22:43.53 | fungus | That is a difficult problem. |
| 22:50.07 | unum | ya |
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