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| 15:56.07 | utahcon | http://www.phpdeveloper.org/news/19337 |
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| 17:40.00 | josephscott | $lart locking bugs |
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| 18:21.09 | mindjuju | josephscott - no way -> http://en.support.wordpress.com/jabber/pidgin/ |
| 18:21.34 | josephscott | mindjuju: what do you mean? |
| 18:21.37 | mindjuju | that's got to be the coolest thing i've seen all year |
| 18:21.59 | josephscott | http://im.wordpress.com/ |
| 18:22.22 | josephscott | I've been using it to get post and comment updates for internal Automattic sites hosted on wordpress.com for years |
| 18:22.34 | josephscott | that is all I use Adium for :-) |
| 18:22.41 | mindjuju | wunderbar! |
| 18:23.56 | josephscott | I like it because I can turn on my IM client, get all the previous unread updates, then turn off IM |
| 18:24.08 | josephscott | I do that a few times through out the day |
| 18:24.18 | romanovic | speaking of wordpress, saw an interesting article on HN this morning http://jshakespeare.com/the-dire-state-of-wordpress/ |
| 18:25.12 | josephscott | yeah, I was reading through that |
| 18:25.13 | romanovic | not trying to troll wordpress users (i am one), but i've often wondered why more people aren't asking the same questions this guy does |
| 18:25.27 | romanovic | "Why is every instance of every model treated like a post?" |
| 18:25.29 | josephscott | there are a few different issues going on there |
| 18:25.36 | josephscott | one is history |
| 18:25.37 | romanovic | "Why can’t I extend the functionality of a post type without writing a whole mess of hooks, filters and functional code into a file that isn’t semantically related to that post in any way?" |
| 18:26.17 | josephscott | the other is playing nice with PHP features and limitations |
| 18:26.56 | josephscott | the hook/filter mechanism, while often abused, is also super useful |
| 18:28.29 | josephscott | there is certainly plenty of room to improve WP |
| 18:28.56 | josephscott | and if that is the goal, then I'd pick one item/feature, and work through improving it |
| 18:29.24 | josephscott | part of the challenge there is backwards compatibility, which WP has been pretty good about |
| 18:29.30 | josephscott | in some cases too good |
| 18:29.41 | josephscott | tierra has plenty to say in that area :-) |
| 18:30.03 | romanovic | ah |
| 18:30.05 | tierra | romanovic: that has bothered me often... why isn't post revisions separated from WP_Post in a way that it could easily be attached/detached for example? |
| 18:30.22 | tierra | it's a behavior to a model really |
| 18:30.31 | tierra | but unseparable from posts in WP |
| 18:30.36 | tierra | when it should be |
| 18:31.18 | josephscott | I mean common, an easy thing to pick on WP about is the horrible abuse of the global namespace |
| 18:31.55 | tierra | hooks and filters have no context... they are always run at whatever points in time they are attached... most event handling systems provide some contextual functionality |
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| 18:32.28 | tierra | that usually results in several conditional checks in most filters/actions |
| 18:32.35 | josephscott | they run when the hook/filter is fired, not when they are attached |
| 18:32.41 | tierra | when it should just never be run at all |
| 18:33.07 | josephscott | since you can attach to a hook/filter that doesn't exist yet |
| 18:33.56 | tierra | but yeah, josephscott hit on backwards compatibility, and yes, that is one of my biggest "pet peeve" areas ;) |
| 18:34.06 | josephscott | hehe, yeah |
| 18:34.29 | josephscott | probably ok for a project with code over 10 years old to start removing some of the backwards compat code :-) |
| 18:34.50 | josephscott | we've become the MS Windows of backwards compatibility |
| 18:34.57 | tierra | ^ ding |
| 18:34.59 | tierra | heh |
| 18:35.32 | tierra | well, except that we're not |
| 18:35.36 | josephscott | though it is kinda cool that my Borland Turbo C++ program still runs on windows |
| 18:35.38 | tierra | (backwards compatible) |
| 18:35.54 | josephscott | since that thing is like 20 years old |
| 18:36.15 | tierra | if your borland turbo C++ program was a wordpress plugin, it would have broke back in 2.8 |
| 18:36.21 | josephscott | haha |
| 18:36.31 | josephscott | and I'd probably be ok with that :-) |
| 18:37.00 | tierra | WP claims ultimate backwards compatibility without actually maintaining backwards compatibility |
| 18:37.17 | josephscott | if anyone is claiming 100% backwards compat they are wrong |
| 18:37.33 | josephscott | but they do a fair bit of backwards compat, especially relative to others |
| 18:39.05 | tierra | it's an all or none thing, either you're compatible or you're not, and if one piece of public API changes, you're not... but I don't think that's how any other WP core devs look at it (or you)... |
| 18:39.29 | josephscott | true, I don't look at that way |
| 18:39.36 | josephscott | it isn't like being pregnant |
| 18:39.37 | tierra | seems more like you guys figure you're "backwards compatible" in the sense that you remove old API *very slowly* |
| 18:39.58 | tierra | well, most API |
| 18:40.06 | tierra | then there's some that's just removed quickly |
| 18:40.49 | josephscott | oh man, this discussion reminded me of something I meant to look for |
| 18:43.04 | josephscott | what the heck is this still doing in WP - http://core.trac.wordpress.org/browser/trunk/wp-includes/load.php#L483 |
| 18:43.15 | josephscott | it has been ages since I've used a my-hacks.php file |
| 18:44.38 | tierra | earlier this week Mark decided with the new builtin audio/video shortcodes, we're now forcing themes to adhere to being compatible with loading jQuery in the frontend from the builtin scripts (wp_enqueue_script), and this was never a requirement of themes before... Andrew Ozz (another core contributor mostly working in Javascript) mentions that last time they tried that, it broke 40-50% of themes... but it's going in now regardless |
| 18:44.48 | tierra | I don't call that being "backwards compatible" |
| 18:46.09 | josephscott | not exactly true |
| 18:46.14 | tierra | given it's only going to break incompatible themes when users actually make use of the shortcodes, but then users are just getting the short end of the stick wondering what just happened with their site |
| 18:46.34 | josephscott | years ago when I was looking at WP themes, I required them to use the standard JS loading functions |
| 18:46.41 | josephscott | instead of hard coding Google CDN or others |
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| 18:47.23 | josephscott | or worse, shipping a theme with their own copy of jquery |
| 18:47.37 | tierra | "I" in this case is referring to who? |
| 18:47.41 | tierra | just you? |
| 18:47.52 | josephscott | me |
| 18:47.59 | josephscott | I used to review every theme submitted to WPORG |
| 18:48.42 | tierra | and every theme reviewer uses that standard? |
| 18:49.12 | josephscott | they've since developed a standard set of base requirements, I haven't looked at that recently |
| 18:49.15 | tierra | http://pastebin.com/LmEtSDYq <- the conversation I'm referring to btw... |
| 18:49.30 | josephscott | but themes and plugins doing goofy things with jquery has been a problem for a long time |
| 18:50.32 | josephscott | oh, namespacing it into the WP JS area might have been nice |
| 18:50.47 | josephscott | but here is the challenge, WP gets it coming and going |
| 18:50.48 | tierra | especially when WP pulls the rug out from under them and updates to a backwards incompatible version of those builtin JS libs |
| 18:51.30 | josephscott | try to "improve" something, get complaints for not bending over backwards on compatibility, try to maintain some form of back compat and get complains of not enforcing "the right way" to do something |
| 18:51.57 | josephscott | yeah, I've been hit with some jquery back compat issues |
| 18:52.09 | josephscott | usually nothing huge, just a few little things that popped up |
| 18:52.15 | tierra | then I'm required to push a plugin update that conditionally (dynamically) spits out and handles both versions (or after 4-5 WP upgrades, 4 or 5 different versions of various libs) |
| 18:52.27 | josephscott | I probably would have voted for namespacing the jquery that got loaded |
| 18:52.50 | josephscott | but I've got my hands full with enough things at the momeny |
| 18:52.52 | josephscott | moment |
| 18:52.55 | tierra | anyway... you get my point... this is all *way* more difficult then it needs to be, and there aren't any proper policies around this stuff for core |
| 18:54.01 | josephscott | I agree |
| 18:54.16 | josephscott | but then again I still have a beef with the WP coding standards :-) |
| 18:54.28 | tierra | most CMSs or other web apps that support themes simply don't ship "builtin" 3rd party libs, and avoid the problem entirely |
| 18:55.10 | josephscott | what is funny about all of this is that some how this has stopped WP from becoming widely used and very helpful for lots of people |
| 18:55.35 | josephscott | not an excuse to keep working towards being better, just funny that many people look for tech silver bullets, when they don't normally exist |
| 18:55.38 | tierra | it's the "popular" thing, but that doesn't make it the best designed |
| 18:55.47 | tierra | we can do better |
| 18:55.56 | jsmith | Sounds like every popular open source application I know :-p |
| 18:56.34 | josephscott | when is the last time the "best designed" tech software was also the most popular? |
| 18:56.52 | josephscott | guess we'd have to be able to qualify what best designed is first |
| 18:57.04 | josephscott | "all software sucks" |
| 18:57.27 | tierra | I've seen someone open a WP trac ticket with the suggestion that if we're going to ship 3rd party JS libs, we could at least use RequireJS with it's multi-version support |
| 18:58.22 | tierra | which really is not a bad idea for managing plugin/theme dependencies on compatible JS libs |
| 19:01.04 | tierra | p.s. that wasn't even me |
| 19:01.10 | tierra | :P |
| 19:02.00 | josephscott | :-) |
| 19:10.12 | tierra | josephscott: knew I saw it somewhere officially... "WordPress strives to never break backwards compatibility." - http://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/how-the-release-cycle-works/version-numbering/ |
| 19:10.27 | tierra | with "never" emphasized |
| 19:10.28 | tierra | btw |
| 19:11.00 | josephscott | someone should update the handbook then |
| 19:11.16 | tierra | that's a brand new handbook |
| 19:11.17 | tierra | rol |
| 19:11.41 | tierra | not more than 8 months old |
| 19:11.46 | josephscott | so |
| 19:12.13 | josephscott | this is the Internet, that is like 4 years in the real world ;-) |
| 19:13.18 | tierra | what's 10 years of WP then? should be hitting retirement then... ;) |
| 19:14.50 | josephscott | I can't remember, alzheimer's has set in |
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| 19:47.00 | ninnypants | $rlart |
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