| 00:00.09 | romanovic | ... http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/16/apple-now-owns-the-page-turn/ |
| 00:01.05 | SunSparc | wow |
| 00:01.20 | SunSparc | Guess I will not be reading books anymore. |
| 00:02.39 | TuxToaster | meh, the thing is none of the e-readers prior to iBooks even bothered with animating the page turn |
| 00:02.58 | SunSparc | Yeah |
| 00:03.00 | TuxToaster | that was one of the things I actually do like about iBooks |
| 00:03.06 | TuxToaster | but patenting it? silly. |
| 00:03.15 | SunSparc | Agreed |
| 00:03.40 | TuxToaster | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:03.53 | TuxToaster | “Consistent backup of electronic information.” waaaay too vague. |
| 00:04.12 | TuxToaster | psh. |
| 00:04.14 | TuxToaster | $lart patents |
| 00:04.15 | raifbot | gives patents a "free" copy of Windows and then charges double for "Upgrades". |
| 00:04.24 | TuxToaster | fitting. |
| 00:04.56 | TuxToaster | and, with that, I'm going home. ciao! |
| 00:05.02 | SunSparc | later |
| 00:05.30 | mindjuju | heya SunSparc |
| 00:05.40 | mindjuju | did we ever get that MC server up to version? |
| 00:05.47 | SunSparc | No |
| 00:05.49 | *** join/#uphpu TuxToaster (~TuxToaste@69.169.182.227.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net) |
| 00:05.49 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v TuxToaster] by ChanServ |
| 00:05.53 | SunSparc | Doh! And the admin just left |
| 00:06.00 | SunSparc | oh, and he came back... |
| 00:06.04 | SunSparc | TuxToaster: Missed us? |
| 00:08.06 | SunSparc | mindjuju: Are you wanting to craft some pumpkin pie? |
| 00:08.53 | mindjuju | can you? |
| 00:09.01 | mindjuju | tbh, i haven't kept up recently |
| 00:09.12 | mindjuju | i just knew a new version came out because of Corban |
| 00:09.42 | SunSparc | You can in the new version. Actually, Ethan said there are two new versions. :) |
| 00:09.49 | mindjuju | i usually check bukkit, patch server, return to normal schedule |
| 00:10.04 | mindjuju | yeah, 1.4.4 i think |
| 00:10.11 | SunSparc | Yeah |
| 00:10.27 | mindjuju | apparently Corban has fought some bats |
| 00:10.29 | mindjuju | :) |
| 00:10.50 | SunSparc | TuxToaster: Can mindjuju and/or I get some ssh for the minecraft server? We have access to the web admin but not ssh. |
| 00:11.04 | mindjuju | petpeeve time : i absolutely HATE when you click on a link for a larger image... |
| 00:11.09 | SunSparc | Oh yeah, the bats, and witches, and more things to grow... |
| 00:11.10 | mindjuju | AND IT'S THE SAME FREAKIN' IMAGE |
| 00:11.21 | SunSparc | No kidding. Irritating. |
| 00:11.55 | mindjuju | so SunSparc, what did you think about that link i posted on FB, i've mulled the responses, and I think i'm still for it, just haven't had the time to voice it back to them |
| 00:12.09 | mindjuju | the buy debt link that jsmith was not for :( |
| 00:13.22 | mindjuju | pesky ole jsmith and his jsmith virginia-boys ways |
| 00:13.46 | SunSparc | mindjuju: Well, it is obviously very liberal, from a political point of view. I think their hearts may be in the right place (maybe) but I am not sure they have really thought it through. In the end I do not think it will be as helpful as it seems on the surface. |
| 00:13.54 | SunSparc | May actually cause problems. |
| 00:14.00 | SunSparc | lol |
| 00:14.40 | mindjuju | yeah, i thought about that |
| 00:15.09 | mindjuju | and yeah, it is quite liberal, i mean Michael Moore is on it for crying out loud, and true i've never been a fan of his |
| 00:15.18 | mindjuju | but shouldn't we consider it despite him? |
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| 00:19.20 | SunSparc | mindjuju: I considered it. I do not feel good about it. But that is just me. I have no idea who is supporting it, let alone Michael Moore. What is it that you like about it? The emotional relief of helping people? |
| 00:20.07 | mindjuju | i like that it is random, you can't petition the organization to pay your bills, i like that it nulls it outright |
| 00:20.18 | mindjuju | i like that 100% (IIRC) goes to the paying of bills |
| 00:20.55 | mindjuju | arguments about it neg-i on small business are n/a |
| 00:21.11 | mindjuju | if you pull over to help an old lady with a flat tire, you're taking money away from the tow truck company |
| 00:21.30 | mindjuju | if you work a soup kitchen, you're taking money away from Luby's |
| 00:21.38 | mindjuju | err, Chuck-o-rama here |
| 00:21.43 | SunSparc | lol |
| 00:21.52 | SunSparc | Yeah, that is not really the part that gets me though. |
| 00:22.06 | mindjuju | true,t hat was more jsmith concern |
| 00:22.59 | mindjuju | so SunSparc, i'm curious on something |
| 00:23.06 | SunSparc | The part that gets me is that it seems to further condone a debt lifestyle. Like bankruptcy. It is so easy to get into debt and think, oh well, I will just write it all off with a bankruptcy. |
| 00:23.11 | mindjuju | what part about it seems liberal, as oppose to straight up charity? |
| 00:24.24 | SunSparc | Bankruptcy is so rampant. And sure, there are valid situations for it, but not after I racked up $50k in debt buying new computers, 50" flatscreen, new boat, etc. Yet that is how it is used. |
| 00:24.43 | mindjuju | from a Christian perspective, are we allowed to judge? from a Secular Charity perspective - it is true that there are some that would live that lifestyle, but couldn't the same be said for the hobos eating soup kitchens? |
| 00:25.03 | mindjuju | I agree with what you're saying SunSparc, don't get me wrong |
| 00:25.29 | mindjuju | i mean, our "high def" Tv is one that red, err, can't think of his name, but i have him on FB and here |
| 00:25.36 | mindjuju | any way, it's his old TV he threw out |
| 00:25.48 | mindjuju | we don't have nice cell phones, nice furniture, etc |
| 00:25.53 | mindjuju | but we are fiscally solvent |
| 00:26.31 | SunSparc | Yes we are allowed to judge. As a Christian even Christ told us to judge, but to judge righteously. |
| 00:26.46 | SunSparc | There was a really good talk about that recently. |
| 00:27.17 | mindjuju | do you remember what it is called, i can look it up |
| 00:27.38 | mindjuju | or maybe who spoke it or when |
| 00:27.45 | SunSparc | This is part of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGHbE6EOGgE |
| 00:28.12 | mindjuju | you know i think this is VERY IMPORTANT, when i pause techno to hear it ;) |
| 00:28.56 | SunSparc | The whole talk is amazing though. http://www.lds.org/broadcasts/september-2012-ces-devotional |
| 00:29.09 | SunSparc | :) |
| 00:30.30 | mindjuju | SunSparc, while i'm listening to this link you sent over, this is what i was thinking from |
| 00:30.37 | mindjuju | http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/mosiah/4.17?lang=eng#16 |
| 00:32.58 | SunSparc | mindjuju: That is a great verse, for sure. But when the guy asking for a handout has his Forerunner working properly, sitting in his 2000sqft garage while he watches a movie on his entertainment center, it just does not jive man. |
| 00:33.32 | SunSparc | There must be consequences for actions. |
| 00:33.44 | mindjuju | fair enough |
| 00:33.47 | SunSparc | Jesus did not save us from all consequences. |
| 00:33.51 | SunSparc | For a reason. |
| 00:33.54 | mindjuju | that's true |
| 00:34.00 | SunSparc | That was the plan of the other guy. |
| 00:34.19 | SunSparc | If we do not have our consequences, we are robbed of the learning experiences. |
| 00:34.33 | mindjuju | very true, and I agree with that |
| 00:34.36 | SunSparc | If we never allow a baby to fall down, they will not learn to walk. |
| 00:34.54 | SunSparc | If we help the bird out of the egg, it will die. |
| 00:35.05 | mindjuju | man, i gotcha like 3 cliche's ago |
| 00:35.11 | SunSparc | lol |
| 00:35.13 | SunSparc | :) |
| 00:35.14 | mindjuju | but hear me out on this |
| 00:36.21 | mindjuju | if we are thinking that the government provides too many social programs and that they are being abused and that they need to be reconsidered, which i think is a thought that you have (if i understood correctly), then Charity needs to be resourced enough to be able to lift a little more burden that it currently is |
| 00:36.33 | mindjuju | i'm not sure if i've worded that right, but that's from the cuff |
| 00:37.08 | mindjuju | and the understood correctly part comes from understanding your a Ron Paul fan, comments you've made in the past, etc |
| 00:37.15 | mindjuju | but if i've understood wrong, i apologize in advance |
| 00:37.32 | mindjuju | but do you see where my thinking is? |
| 00:38.55 | mindjuju | so on Elder Hollands talk, i see what you're saying about Judging Righteously, i'm not sure if i see how it applies to this, but i'm just at 5:21 |
| 00:38.59 | SunSparc | Yes, and I agree. |
| 00:39.00 | mindjuju | he may get to it soon |
| 00:40.10 | mindjuju | oh, he's kind of touching on the point at 6:10 |
| 00:41.07 | mindjuju | so Sunsparc, if you found out your neighbor's wife was ill and needed help, would you send over a plate of food? |
| 00:41.28 | mindjuju | and of course, you see the punch line on this, so i'll defang it, by asking, how is this different? in advance |
| 00:42.52 | SunSparc | The difference is that it is impersonal. Part of the great thing about giving charity is the personal connection that both parties get to have. The relationship that is enhanced. |
| 00:43.22 | SunSparc | There may be other differences, but that was the first I noticed. |
| 00:43.23 | mindjuju | he kind of touches on it again starting around 7:45 |
| 00:44.00 | mindjuju | though i feel like he's talking more specifically about moral issues, i can see the corallary to personal responsibility |
| 00:44.52 | mindjuju | so follow up to your point then, don't donate blood, don't donate to american red cross or national charity groups? |
| 00:45.55 | mindjuju | if your child make a mistake would you not mete out justice though offer mercy by walking the punishment with them so that they understood better? |
| 00:46.45 | mindjuju | see what i'm saying is, you're 100% right, a lot of these people put themselves in this situation, it's dumb that they got where they are |
| 00:46.56 | mindjuju | (not all fit in that category, though) |
| 00:47.34 | mindjuju | but at what point do we stretch out our hand and offer them help to understand what happened and why? maybe a better idea would be help to null the debt and financial responsibility classes? |
| 00:49.10 | mindjuju | this is a good link though and I agree with his statements on judging righteously on moral issues and like i say, corallarys to PR |
| 00:49.52 | SunSparc | If we know our neighbors, we will know when they need help and we can judge each situation based on the merits of that situation. |
| 00:50.31 | mindjuju | i guess i'm worried. worried that the gap that exists between indebted people that you describe, how are they suppose to learn better habits? |
| 00:50.33 | SunSparc | Randomly removing debt does nothing to alleviate the problem. |
| 00:50.57 | mindjuju | what is it that draws them to you your perspective to let them know to do better next time |
| 00:51.08 | SunSparc | Absolutey, offer financial education. We only grow from learning. |
| 00:51.12 | mindjuju | because so far, we just lost an election, and in large part because of this gap, i believe |
| 00:52.07 | SunSparc | "We just lost an election", interesting sentiment. :) |
| 00:52.21 | mindjuju | did the person you vote for win? |
| 00:52.38 | mindjuju | see, we didn't vote for the same person, but we both fit that boat |
| 00:52.46 | SunSparc | The person I voted for was not elected. But I think he did win, in many ways. |
| 00:54.07 | SunSparc | This kind of conversation is difficult to type. How about we discuss it over dinner. :) |
| 00:54.10 | mindjuju | so you're happy then |
| 00:54.25 | mindjuju | sure man! i'm always game for a political conversation at 5guys |
| 00:54.29 | mindjuju | or dinner |
| 00:54.31 | SunSparc | Am I happy? Yes, but only because I choose to be. |
| 00:54.32 | mindjuju | :) |
| 00:55.17 | mindjuju | well, if you are happy with your political choice and how the election turned out, then i can see what this particular opportunity for charity doesn't seem to fit |
| 00:55.24 | fungus | I haven't seen the link from mindjuju, but I assume you are talking about the erasing debt charity. Is that correct? |
| 00:55.36 | mindjuju | me, i worried about that chasm |
| 00:55.40 | mindjuju | hang on fungus, i'll find it |
| 00:55.45 | SunSparc | I know a lot of people are pretty bent that Obama was elected to a second term. But honestly, the president is not the all powerful world ruler that so many think he is. There are so many other areas that need to be focused on. |
| 00:56.10 | mindjuju | fungus - http://rollingjubilee.org/ |
| 00:56.25 | mindjuju | totally agree SunSparc |
| 00:56.34 | mindjuju | the government is a reflection of society |
| 00:56.41 | mindjuju | our society isn't where it needs to be |
| 00:56.43 | fungus | SunSparc, the biggest cause of bankruptcy before the economic decline wasn't irresponsible people, it was from medical debt. |
| 00:56.59 | mindjuju | so how do we reach out to the folks to help them? |
| 00:57.37 | fungus | mindjuju, Yes that one. I would thing you conservatives would be all over it. It is a private charity and legally discharges debt and is agreed to by the original creditor. |
| 00:57.52 | mindjuju | i am all over it |
| 00:57.57 | mindjuju | ;) |
| 00:58.05 | SunSparc | mindjuju: One person at a time. Neighborhood by neighborhood. Or in the case of those of the LDS faith, ward by ward. Do home teaching, be active in the neighborhood. Know who your neighbors are. |
| 00:58.06 | mindjuju | it's exactly what i've been preaching |
| 00:58.14 | mindjuju | just like you s ay, private charity |
| 00:58.40 | fungus | Right. they just hijacked the mechanisms that collection agencies use to buy personal debt. |
| 00:58.51 | mindjuju | yeah |
| 00:59.10 | fungus | It's awesome. |
| 00:59.28 | mindjuju | well, it's something i shared on my FB, i like it so much |
| 00:59.36 | mindjuju | and i don't share a lot of things of this nature on there |
| 00:59.49 | fungus | And SunSparc, your opinion on those filing bankruptcy is pretty sad, and not accurate. I can clearly see you've never been through it. |
| 01:00.10 | fungus | Most people in those situations are not repeat offenders. |
| 01:00.44 | SunSparc | fungus: sorry, you are wrong, been there, opted out, currently being fiscally responsible and taking care of my debts that I racked up. |
| 01:01.45 | fungus | Your attitude towards those that take advantage of that is what is sad. |
| 01:01.46 | SunSparc | True though, about the medical debts. I think that whole situation is a whole different topic. |
| 01:02.41 | fungus | I've noticed many people think that people use bankruptcy to just get stuff for free. That angers me, because it isn't largely true. |
| 01:02.49 | SunSparc | fungus: I am sure we are just not communicating the same thoughts. |
| 01:03.54 | mindjuju | i want to get together and talk on this |
| 01:04.04 | mindjuju | i LOVE politcial conversations |
| 01:04.15 | mindjuju | like to hear what peoples' thoughts are and why |
| 01:04.18 | fungus | I think the rolling jubilee is a fantastic way to help those people that aren't bad enough off to take advantage of bankruptcy, but are still hurting badly. |
| 01:04.25 | fungus | mindjuju, lol, me too. |
| 01:04.50 | fungus | As long as they aren't hateful things. |
| 01:05.01 | mindjuju | yeah, true that |
| 01:05.14 | SunSparc | I really dislike political conversations. Yet I get sucked into them too easily. |
| 01:05.39 | SunSparc | Then they get twisted because everyone is speaking a different language. |
| 01:05.53 | mindjuju | you know though, seeing Michael Moore on the same team as this made me do a double take, not really a fan, but hey, he can't be always wrong |
| 01:06.03 | mindjuju | ;) |
| 01:06.22 | fungus | I agree that charity should start on a personal or private level. But I strongly believe that welfare is an important failsafe to catch those that can't get help through other means. |
| 01:06.29 | mindjuju | in fact, curiously, i think this is the first thing that he and i ahve agreed on |
| 01:06.57 | mindjuju | fungus, i think there is a lot of strong merit to that argument |
| 01:07.31 | mindjuju | exactly how that welfare is provided and how it is managed is the devil in the details, but i think there is room for compromise |
| 01:07.45 | fungus | exactly. |
| 01:08.11 | fungus | It's difficult to manage the details but keep the spirit alive. |
| 01:09.03 | SunSparc | Well, now that you all know that I am a heartless bastard, I will get back to work. :) |
| 01:09.13 | fungus | lol, you aren't heartless. |
| 01:09.23 | mindjuju | what?? |
| 01:09.27 | mindjuju | you're not heartless |
| 01:09.40 | mindjuju | there does need to be justice meted out |
| 01:09.50 | mindjuju | man, i'm all over fiscal solvency |
| 01:10.04 | fungus | You just aren't fully informed. I've heard those same sentiments from many other people with similar misconceptions. |
| 01:10.48 | SunSparc | Nobody is fully informed, that is one of the big problems. |
| 01:10.59 | SunSparc | Everyone has an opinion with only partial information. |
| 01:11.24 | fungus | I agree wholly. |
| 01:11.45 | fungus | I mostly just take offense when people refuse to be open to the information they are missing. |
| 01:12.21 | SunSparc | yeah |
| 01:12.49 | fungus | anyway, the office cleaners are kind of glaring at me. I'm going to leave. Been nice talking w/ ya. |
| 01:13.05 | SunSparc | I know I am a naive idiot. That is perhaps my only saving trait. |
| 01:13.19 | SunSparc | night fungus |
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| 13:59.24 | supernovia | curious convo yesterday between fungus, susnsparc, and mindjuju |
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| 17:12.12 | mindjuju | supernovia, i'm here off and on thihs morning if you want to PM your qq |
| 17:12.33 | supernovia | Oh hey :) |
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| 22:49.21 | SunSparc | ~saturday |
| 22:49.21 | ibot | Saturday is the day that sucks the least!, or a lonely day in IRC |
| 22:51.33 | SunSparc | ~rlart |
| 22:51.33 | ibot | whips out a sword and chops mindjuju___ in half |
| 22:51.39 | SunSparc | Ouch |
| 22:51.48 | SunSparc | ~rlart |
| 22:51.48 | ibot | takes out a seltzer bottle and sprays peno in the face. You know, one of those old-school seltzer bottles clowns have? Yeah those. Anyway, consider yourself spritzed |
| 22:52.21 | SunSparc | ibot: Does anyone every use you for your useful information? |
| 22:53.04 | SunSparc | Don't take it personally. |