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| 10:35.57 | *** topic/#UPHPU is UPHPU | Utah PHP Users | uphpu.org |
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| 15:16.23 | mindjuju | ~page josephscott |
| 15:16.28 | mindjuju | darn |
| 15:16.36 | mindjuju | anybody awake? |
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| 15:33.22 | mindjuju | ~summon fungus |
| 15:33.22 | ibot | apt takes out 20 clean, identical-looking phones, some extra hands, and pretends to be a telemarketer for a large corporation, so he gets delivered a phonelist containing fungus's coordinates |
| 15:33.52 | mindjuju | hmm, i was expecting something more along the lines of D&D and clouds of thunder |
| 15:36.52 | fungus | You rang? </Lurch> |
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| 15:37.25 | mindjuju | so fungus, my servers have entered the busy season, and munin is showing significantly increasing load |
| 15:37.44 | fungus | grats |
| 15:37.48 | mindjuju | we're like 5 weeks out from halloween and yesterday apache was responding to 80.1 requests / second |
| 15:38.01 | mindjuju | for our hardware, how can i tell if that is good or no? |
| 15:38.23 | fungus | 1. Is the load within tolerances? |
| 15:38.44 | fungus | 2. Are the requests getting completed (not reaching max clients)? |
| 15:39.17 | fungus | 3. Are page load times still within tolerances? |
| 15:39.27 | mindjuju | so when it spiked to the 80.1 (average was around 75 which was tolerable) the servre had to be restarted with an service httpd reload |
| 15:40.53 | mindjuju | if predicitions are set on the past week data from munin, i can expect 80 requests / sec load average on thursday / friday |
| 15:41.33 | mindjuju | so i guess on your first question, is load within current tolerance, i'd say barely |
| 15:41.42 | mindjuju | on second, barely |
| 15:41.53 | mindjuju | on third, we seem to be ok here |
| 15:41.55 | fungus | By load I meant system load average |
| 15:42.10 | mindjuju | oh |
| 15:42.38 | fungus | < 1*CPUcount |
| 15:42.39 | mindjuju | load average right not is 1.06 |
| 15:43.11 | mindjuju | oops, i meant htop reporting load average is 1.06 |
| 15:44.25 | TuxToaster | $chuck-fact |
| 15:44.26 | raifbot | If Superman and The Flash were to race to the edge of space you know who would win? Chuck Norris. |
| 15:45.06 | fungus | The Flash is a fictional character, he couldn't run past the edge of the comic book page. |
| 15:45.21 | TuxToaster | lol |
| 15:52.00 | mindjuju | so fungus, it looks like the load average could have handled much more, but that we couldn't hit the max clients |
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| 15:52.31 | mindjuju | exccept that , i'm confused, i thought apache was more ram intensive than cpu |
| 15:52.46 | fungus | depends on the application. |
| 15:53.09 | fungus | static content, yes. |
| 15:53.20 | mindjuju | RAM wise, we were up to 7200/7960 |
| 15:53.21 | fungus | Poorly written PHP code, maybe not. |
| 15:54.43 | mindjuju | so you're saying normal is only relative to this server as apps will use memory differently |
| 15:54.55 | mindjuju | what is normal for this computer? |
| 15:55.14 | fungus | everything is relative. |
| 15:56.11 | mindjuju | i guess i'm just not 100% sold i've fully optimized the max clients and everything |
| 15:56.49 | fungus | That's fine. You just need to make sure you can handle all the requests you can without falling over. |
| 15:57.00 | fungus | If you fall over, it's poorly tuned. |
| 15:57.20 | fungus | If you turn away requests, you need more power (either more servers, or hardware upgrades) |
| 15:58.31 | fungus | If you are coming close to max capacity now, I would suggest planning on scaling very soon. |
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| 16:01.15 | tierra | depending on your situation, you might also be able to squeeze more out of what you have if you can find areas where you can combine JS, CSS, and images to reduce the number of requests... your visitors will see faster page load times too |
| 16:01.34 | carmony | alright, emails burned through, time to knock out some tickets |
| 16:02.24 | mindjuju | so tierra, for the most part, all js and images offloaded to a different server, very few of that kind of thing is on this server still |
| 16:02.47 | tierra | ok, so you're already up to par for that then |
| 16:05.06 | mindjuju | when they use words like "simple" it makes me feel dumb for not understanding |
| 16:05.08 | mindjuju | This procedure for doing this is simple: determine the size of your average Apache process, by looking at your process list via a tool such as top, and divide this into your total available memory, leaving some room for other processes. |
| 16:07.20 | influx | Hmm. |
| 16:07.57 | mindjuju | so in top , the memory indicator that they are talking about, is that VIRT? |
| 16:08.52 | dharmatech | mindjuju: is switching to nginx an option? you can typically get better performance with less resources using nginx/php-fpm instead apache/mod_php/fcgid/et al. |
| 16:09.37 | mindjuju | dharmatech, i tried but that project was pushed off until after this halloween season |
| 16:09.49 | mindjuju | so i'm stuck with it until november |
| 16:10.01 | mindjuju | comments like this though don't help -> VIRT column in the ps/top output is almost irrelevant to measure memory usage. Don't worry about it. |
| 16:11.17 | dharmatech | mindjuju: not to distract you too much, but are you using fcgid? |
| 16:11.57 | mindjuju | prefork, i sided with stability / security ( at least that's what i read somewhere was the diff) |
| 16:15.27 | dharmatech | wouldn't necessarily agree with stability. fcgid is usually be more resource effecient than mod_php (less db connections, less memory consumption). |
| 16:15.57 | dharmatech | it's a bit slower than mod_php but if you're tight on resources, might give you some breathing room. |
| 16:16.45 | fungus | At this time (busy season) I wouldn't recommend making infrastructure changes, just tuning and scaling. |
| 16:20.34 | mindjuju | so when they say "determine the size of your average Apache process, by looking at your process list via a tool such as top, and divide this into your total available memory" i think they mean RES, which is "The non-swapped physical memory a task has used." |
| 16:20.57 | fungus | mindjuju, yes |
| 16:21.44 | mindjuju | so since the RES num for the httpd isn't constant, should i just get like 10 of these and average them? |
| 16:21.52 | fungus | yes |
| 16:22.41 | fungus | or use a max() |
| 16:23.50 | fungus | quibbling over a few simultaneous clients isn't going to help that much when you have hundreds of connections getting turned away. |
| 16:24.20 | fungus | If you are getting close now, you should be planning your scaling now. |
| 16:24.40 | fungus | adding more hardware, or load balancer w/ more servers |
| 16:25.04 | mindjuju | k |
| 16:26.10 | dharmatech | fungus: mindjuju: btw, I wasn't trying to derail your process, just offering suggestions. :) |
| 16:26.43 | fungus | np, they are good suggestions. |
| 16:27.10 | fungus | But since his busy window started, and only lasts a month or two. He's got priorities. |
| 16:27.29 | dharmatech | yep, been there. |
| 16:29.37 | mindjuju | k, so just so i complete this, here is where i am: total available RAM divided by average apache process (leave room for other functions) = MaxClients, that for me is 8000/74.8 = 106 maxclients (step this down for other processes) so like 103? |
| 16:30.44 | fungus | does the server run anything else that uses a lot of mem? |
| 16:30.47 | fungus | MySQL? |
| 16:30.51 | mindjuju | yeah, mysql |
| 16:31.16 | fungus | Yikes, then you got to subtract out your MySQL memory |
| 16:32.51 | mindjuju | mysql res stays pretty constant at 202 ~ 203 RES |
| 16:33.57 | mindjuju | so sub from 8000 = 7690, so should i just guess a number for all other non web related funtions and say this is 7600? |
| 16:34.36 | mindjuju | if so, then max clients is 101 |
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| 16:38.18 | mindjuju | so fungus, all the other servers in load balance will need to be setup like this, no? or can i still do fcgi on others? |
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| 16:39.02 | fungus | No, you can do different stuff on others. |
| 16:39.30 | fungus | If you have a load balancer it makes testing new setups easy. |
| 16:39.49 | fungus | Flick a switch to change where the traffic goes, and flick back in case of disaster |
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| 16:52.49 | josephscott | $rlart |
| 16:52.49 | raifbot | takes a large goose feather pillow and swings it wildly in utahcon_'s direction, hitting utahcon_ and sending utahcon_ flying into the closet. |
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| 17:04.44 | influx | $lart influx |
| 17:04.44 | raifbot | whacks influx upside the head. |
| 17:04.54 | influx | Thank you sir, may I please have another? |
| 17:05.02 | influx | $lart influx |
| 17:05.02 | raifbot | drops a baby grand on influx. |
| 17:10.18 | skinner | $rlart |
| 17:10.18 | raifbot | throws a AN/M-8 smoke grenade at unum. |
| 17:12.39 | influx | Are there any WP peeps here in addition to ninnypants? |
| 17:20.25 | TuxToaster | $lart influx |
| 17:20.26 | raifbot | keeps mailing influx free America Online CDs until he drowns. |
| 17:20.38 | TuxToaster | now it's not all self-larting :P |
| 17:25.11 | influx | Hah. |
| 17:25.30 | influx | +1 xp |
| 17:25.48 | influx | Learned that there's #WordPress on Freenode. |
| 17:26.41 | ninnypants | there's dev meetings in #wordpress-dev as well |
| 17:29.16 | influx | Rad. Ty. |
| 17:29.17 | influx | :) |
| 17:34.53 | skinner | I have a friend who works for a small company. Their single product is a service written in PHP. My friend has been rebuked in the past for wanting to change parts of the site to use more OOP since it has none. Boss doesn't want to spend money on writing new code that will perform the same function as old code. Currently if a bug appears related to a db query, chances are high that it's been copied and pasted in a bunch of other locations. Does that thought m |
| 17:41.22 | influx | skinner: Text cut off. :( |
| 17:41.33 | skinner | oh :( |
| 17:41.40 | skinner | I have a friend who works for a small company. |
| 17:41.49 | skinner | Their single product is a service written in PHP. My friend has been rebuked in the past for wanting to change parts of the site to use more OOP since it has none. |
| 17:41.57 | skinner | Boss doesn't want to spend money on writing new code that will perform the same function as old code. |
| 17:42.03 | skinner | Currently if a bug appears related to a db query, chances are high that it's been copied and pasted in a bunch of other locations. |
| 17:42.09 | skinner | Does that thought make anyone else a sad panda? |
| 17:42.18 | influx | Ah. Yes. |
| 17:43.22 | TuxToaster | yup yup |
| 17:45.12 | dharmatech | OOP by itself isn't going to solve copy/paste problem and OOP can be abused to not allow code reuse. If I was CTO of that company, I would want a better argument other than "wants to use more OOP because there is none." |
| 17:45.27 | dharmatech | unsolicited $0.02. :) |
| 17:45.59 | fungus | Agreed, even procedural code can limit duplication. |
| 17:46.21 | fungus | IMHO, the real benefit to OOP is extendability. |
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| 17:52.08 | TuxToaster | I have to agree that there needs to be more of a benefit than just wanting OOP code if it will perform exactly the same |
| 17:52.26 | TuxToaster | but it's sad when companies refuse to allow changes even if there is a benefit to be had. |
| 17:52.47 | skinner | Well some of the problems are that the code base hasn't been altered much apart from bug fixes in the last 12 - 15 years |
| 17:52.59 | skinner | and the system is full of bugs |
| 17:53.19 | TuxToaster | yeah, see that kind of stuff makes a better argument for some cleanup |
| 17:53.20 | skinner | implementing new features right now is such a nightmare, they don't want to improve i |
| 17:53.23 | skinner | *it |
| 17:54.34 | dharmatech | skinner: what language(s) is the code base? |
| 17:54.39 | skinner | PHP |
| 17:55.04 | TuxToaster | I was given the same reason (not wanting to write code that will perform the same functions) once as a reason for not migrating the code from an antequated language on a proprietary (and very unreliable) application server to PHP, even though we had already decided to make the move previously. |
| 17:56.59 | dharmatech | code base is PHP and it's 12-15 years old? yikes. |
| 17:57.09 | skinner | Exactly |
| 17:57.16 | skinner | We're talking early php |
| 17:57.23 | dharmatech | like 2.0 or something. |
| 17:57.26 | skinner | I just feel bad because my friend has wanted to implement things slowly at first, such as a specified error handling process, a class to help with db queries, etc. |
| 17:57.44 | skinner | they have a CRON that runs nightly to help optimize their tables |
| 17:58.02 | skinner | when my friend started working there a few months back, they hardly had any indexes in their tables |
| 17:58.07 | skinner | . . . . |
| 17:59.05 | dharmatech | she/he might have more luck if she/he brings in a new architecture/framework/language and can demonstrate why it's better (or generates more revenue/saves money). Exec types usually understand that. :) |
| 17:59.35 | dharmatech | hobble along on the old for a while longer, but transition to new rather than piece meal changes into old system. |
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| 18:08.36 | fungus | skinner, just put it in terms of ROI for faster feature implementation, faster bug fixes, etc. Execs like that kind of talk. |
| 18:09.29 | skinner | Thanks, I'll pass that on to him. |
| 18:09.43 | skinner | You guys are awesome as always! :) |
| 18:10.19 | skinner | oh and for those who care...lol...my wife had her baby last week. |
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| 18:18.54 | influx | Congrats, skinner. |
| 18:19.09 | skinner | influx: Thanks! :) |
| 18:23.50 | influx | :D |
| 18:31.24 | unum | only two resumes so far |
| 18:31.34 | unum | skinner: congrats |
| 18:31.51 | mindjuju | congrats skinner! |
| 18:32.18 | skinner | Thank you! :) |
| 18:32.23 | skinner | It's strange to have a mini-me now. |
| 18:33.26 | jsmith | skinner: Congrats! |
| 18:54.11 | mgeary | i take it skinner has successfully reproduced? |
| 18:54.19 | mgeary | ~skinner skinner |
| 18:54.19 | ibot | ACTION buries skinner in a giant waterfall... WHOOOOSH! |
| 19:08.13 | TuxToaster | lol |
| 19:08.22 | TuxToaster | skinner: congrats :-) |
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| 19:27.33 | skinner | mgeary: Yes |
| 19:27.38 | skinner | for the 3rd time |
| 19:27.45 | skinner | a boy....finally |
| 19:33.19 | mgeary | awesome |
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| 20:29.06 | itimber | skinner: congratulations man! |
| 20:29.22 | skinner | itimber: thanks! :) |
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| 20:53.43 | beandog | mornin |
| 20:54.04 | beandog | or wherever we're at |
| 20:55.08 | TuxToaster | lol |
| 20:57.57 | TuxToaster | beandog: btw, the conversion on the dishwasher went well. Pretty easy, actually. |
| 20:58.15 | beandog | TuxToaster: that's cool |
| 20:58.28 | beandog | how did you hook it up to the water? |
| 20:59.12 | TuxToaster | I skipped the conversion kits that you can buy, and just went to Lowes and picked up a kit that has a water feed hose (there was already one for the old dishwasher, but new never hurts) and a couple of adapters |
| 20:59.54 | TuxToaster | luckily the house already had a dishwasher, it just sucked. Our dishes came out dirtier than they went in. heh. |
| 21:00.43 | TuxToaster | but we had a portable we bought for the old place that didn't have a builtin that worked great, so I just took it out of the cabinet it comes in and put it under the counter |
| 21:01.38 | jsmith | TuxToaster: Been there, done that. :-) |
| 21:02.23 | TuxToaster | I'm happy with how it turned out |
| 21:02.43 | TuxToaster | wasn't exactly expecting the block of cement that was strapped to the back of the cabinet though |
| 21:02.54 | TuxToaster | I know they need a counterweight, but really. cement? lol. |
| 21:03.34 | beandog | whut, heh |
| 21:11.35 | ninnypants | TuxToaster: nice |
| 21:11.56 | ninnypants | I did my dishwasher and it took all day. I had to re-run all the hoses and everything |
| 21:12.14 | ninnypants | was worried I would get stuck behind the counters while no one was home |
| 21:12.31 | beandog | lol |
| 21:13.31 | ninnypants | still wasn't as impressive as replumbing 90% of my basement in 1 night though ;) |
| 21:13.57 | ninnypants | anyway on topic has anyone here used opencart? |
| 21:17.25 | mindjuju | wow, jsmith's investmentd did well today, dji +272, rht +1.17 |
| 21:18.29 | ninnypants | macnewbold: ping |
| 21:19.02 | macnewbold | ninnypants: pong |
| 21:19.22 | ninnypants | macnewbold: do you have the contact info for c7? |
| 21:19.39 | macnewbold | i'd have to google it and pull it up from their web site |
| 21:20.16 | jsmith | ninnypants: I've been advised by legal counsel not to offer any investment advice |
| 21:20.39 | ninnypants | very good advice :) |
| 21:21.10 | jsmith | Yeah, makes it easier on me too |
| 21:27.27 | TuxToaster | ninnypants: it took me a good part of Saturday to do, mostly because I had no idea what I was doing. :P |
| 21:29.09 | ninnypants | TuxToaster: same here I've come to the conclusion that washers are terrible things |
| 21:29.15 | skinner | With apache using virtualhosts, my server is trying to load the first .conf file as the website when the server is accessed via it's IP address, is there a way to override that? |
| 21:29.59 | TuxToaster | ninnypants: the little rubber things or the appliance? :P |
| 21:30.08 | mindjuju | skinner, yes |
| 21:30.32 | ninnypants | all washers dish, clothes, lock ;) |
| 21:30.40 | TuxToaster | haha |
| 21:30.43 | TuxToaster | $lart washers |
| 21:30.44 | raifbot | whips out his power stapler and staples washers's foot to the floor. |
| 21:31.00 | TuxToaster | meh, that one didn't work as well. |
| 21:31.13 | skinner | TuxToaster: It'll prevent the washer from being off-balanced |
| 21:31.45 | TuxToaster | true |
| 21:32.03 | mindjuju | skinner -> http://pastebin.com/ThKTRyhQ |
| 21:32.13 | skinner | ha perfect |
| 21:32.25 | mindjuju | one for each domain |
| 21:32.26 | skinner | I was just thinking maybe i needed a virtual host with the ip in it |
| 21:32.46 | mindjuju | and for extra fluffy good times, i put each in its own conf in the conf.d dir |
| 21:33.02 | skinner | my virtualhosts all have <VirtualHost *:80> |
| 21:33.03 | skinner | ..... |
| 21:33.33 | mindjuju | this way, if you need to change one thing about a site, you aren't searching through a huge honking list of stuff |
| 21:33.46 | skinner | ya |
| 21:34.02 | skinner | I have each vhost in it's own .conf file in the conf.d dir like you said |
| 21:34.07 | skinner | just each vhost has *:80 |
| 21:34.22 | skinner | do I need to change them to be <domain>:80 |
| 21:34.23 | skinner | ? |
| 21:34.36 | skinner | or just add one more vhost with <ip>:80? |
| 21:35.33 | fungus | Your VirtualHost tag should match the same spec as your NameVirtualHost directive, if you are using name based hosting. |
| 21:37.23 | skinner | fungus: NameVirtualHost *:80 |
| 21:37.34 | fungus | Then you should use that |
| 21:37.43 | fungus | <VirtualHost *:80> |
| 21:38.20 | skinner | so if I understand it right I need to add one more vhost with the ServerName being the ip address....? |
| 21:38.37 | fungus | No |
| 21:38.42 | skinner | doh |
| 21:38.44 | fungus | What for? Did I miss something? |
| 21:39.03 | skinner | my question is in regards to typing in the server ip in the browser |
| 21:39.12 | fungus | ahh, IC |
| 21:39.16 | skinner | it is serving up the first .conf file that's loaded |
| 21:39.28 | fungus | If no ServerNames match the first <VirtualHost> is chosen |
| 21:39.53 | skinner | so I do need a vhost with servername being the ip? |
| 21:40.01 | fungus | no |
| 21:40.10 | fungus | What is your goal? |
| 21:40.12 | skinner | or make it so the site i want has it's conf loaded first |
| 21:40.48 | skinner | if the IP of the server is used in the browser, site 'B' is displayed, not site 'A' |
| 21:41.17 | skinner | ~skinner skinner |
| 21:41.17 | ibot | ACTION buries skinner in a giant waterfall... WHOOOOSH! |
| 21:41.18 | fungus | Just make your default Vhost the first vhost |
| 21:41.29 | fungus | name your file something like 00-default |
| 21:41.37 | skinner | ok, that's what I was thinkin |
| 21:41.52 | skinner | that'll do (: |
| 21:43.46 | skinner | and mindjuju |
| 22:18.45 | *** join/#uphpu josephscott (~josephsco@104.2.233.72.static.reverse.ltdomains.com) |
| 22:18.45 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v josephscott] by ChanServ |
| 22:19.46 | mindjuju | who here is looking for beginner - mid level work in the UC? |
| 22:20.16 | macnewbold | seeking a padawan mindjuju is? |
| 22:20.34 | mindjuju | oh wait, i'm getting mixed comm, ok, this is in Provo and is NOT entry level, this is for experienced PHP dev |
| 22:20.55 | mindjuju | @macnewbold, i'm a sheep of a different color these days. i'm doing sysadmin and little php on the side |
| 22:21.04 | mindjuju | keep the knife sharp, but not in heavy use |
| 22:21.31 | mindjuju | PM me if you're interested |
| 22:21.48 | mindjuju | this says no agencies nor third party vendors :( srry macnewbold |
| 22:22.29 | mindjuju | or actually, you don't need to PM me because its posted publicly - http://www.ksl.com/jobs/listing/37980/25 |
| 22:22.53 | beandog | yay sysadmin |
| 22:23.49 | josephscott | kind of a strange position |
| 22:24.26 | josephscott | need to be an Adobe Photoshop expert and a back end infrastructure master |
| 22:25.29 | beandog | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:25.35 | beandog | that always makes me nervous when people put that. |
| 22:25.39 | beandog | Makes me think they are real jerks. |
| 22:26.15 | *** part/#uphpu jtsnow (~jtsnow@75-169-60-127.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 22:27.46 | josephscott | yep, potential employers who like to be jerks during interviews to see how "you work under pressure" end up broadcasting a loud message of "you don't want to work here, we will treat you poorly" |
| 22:45.29 | macnewbold | there's a fine balance between being selective during an interview, and selling your position to the applicant |
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| 22:56.18 | *** part/#uphpu bhosie (~bhosie@208.97.53.253) |
| 23:01.56 | *** part/#uphpu skinner (~david@128.187.203.26) |
| 23:16.46 | beandog | all I want to do is play Lego Pirates of the Caribbean. |
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| 23:19.52 | mindjuju | i'm takes off to go play minecraft with son ( still have to squeeze in family time ) |