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| 14:36.38 | TuxToaster | $lart raifbot |
| 14:36.38 | raifbot | tries to shut raifbot up. |
| 14:37.06 | TuxToaster | raifbot: its not working very well, apparently. |
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| 15:24.08 | mindjuju | ~seen undertakingyou |
| 15:24.14 | ibot | undertakingyou <~undertaki@67.214.250.163> was last seen on IRC in channel #uphpu, 4d 22h 31m 31s ago, saying: 'heh,'. |
| 15:28.36 | mindjuju | http://gizmodo.com/5835723/federal-court-says-you-can-record-the-cops |
| 15:28.40 | mindjuju | YIPPEE! |
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| 15:57.25 | ninnypants | mindjuju: I find it strange that it was ever really a question |
| 15:57.55 | wps | ~wahoo |
| 16:03.58 | mindjuju | @ninnypants -- no doubt, v scary |
| 16:05.37 | ninnypants | yeah very I've seen quite a few things on it like the kid who got arrested for videoing police while they beat up a kid at a bus stop |
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| 16:08.14 | mindjuju | the fullerton police thing? that's one vid i won't watch cause i'm already fired up about that just having a son, watching the vid would prolly throw me over |
| 16:08.53 | ninnypants | mindjuju: I think so I can't remember the name watched it too long ago |
| 16:09.09 | mindjuju | oh this just happened like 1 month ago, maybe 2 |
| 16:09.53 | mindjuju | dad is cop, son had serious mental issues, homeless. approached by cops on a possible burglary and he ran, they caught him and beat him, died later in hospital |
| 16:10.17 | mindjuju | in the vid he supposedly cries for his dad, all this happening at a bus terminal with onlookers |
| 16:11.02 | mindjuju | here is article out of forbes - http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/07/29/fullerton-police-brutally-beat-homeless-man-to-death/ |
| 16:11.15 | mindjuju | like the warning says, pics are graphic |
| 16:13.45 | ninnypants | mindjuju: can't really see anything in the video or even hear the homless guy but you can hear the tazers |
| 16:13.54 | ninnypants | pic is pretty bad though |
| 16:15.03 | ninnypants | but no the one I was thinking about is different |
| 16:16.52 | ninnypants | mindjuju: this is the one I'm thinking of http://www.laweekly.com/2010-12-09/news/jeremy-marks-attempted-lynching-case/ |
| 16:17.43 | ninnypants | looks like this one was very different from what I remembered |
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| 17:03.10 | josephscott | a classic - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYbyj9I1u6U |
| 17:03.33 | mindjuju | holy smokes! |
| 17:03.38 | mindjuju | josephscott in #uphpu? |
| 17:03.54 | josephscott | cmon now I was only out for a few days |
| 17:03.59 | mindjuju | heh |
| 17:04.08 | mindjuju | a few days on internet is like an eon |
| 17:04.22 | mindjuju | i love that vid josephscott |
| 17:11.39 | ninnypants | I love the kid just sitting there shreading paper towels |
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| 17:41.20 | mgeary | hey folks |
| 17:41.46 | mgeary | so, i've got a server running ntpd, but somehow it's still drifted several minutes (20) off |
| 17:42.07 | mgeary | can someone remind me how to get it to re-sync? |
| 17:42.27 | fungus | stop ntpd; ntpdate ntpserver; start ntpd |
| 17:43.54 | mgeary | how do i get a good value for <ntpserver> ? |
| 17:44.17 | fungus | use whatever your ntpd is configured for |
| 17:44.28 | mgeary | time.apple.com |
| 17:44.33 | fungus | then use that |
| 17:44.35 | mgeary | hrm, or not |
| 17:45.00 | mgeary | gives me: "no server suitable for synchronization found" |
| 17:45.01 | mindjuju | pool.ntp.org ? |
| 17:45.09 | fungus | that one works too |
| 17:45.15 | fungus | doesn't matter which one really |
| 17:45.17 | mindjuju | ooh! i know this one |
| 17:45.19 | mindjuju | it's |
| 17:45.30 | mindjuju | ntpdate pool.ntp.org |
| 17:45.32 | mindjuju | something like that |
| 17:45.39 | mgeary | ~toolate mindjuju |
| 17:46.04 | mindjuju | i'm just glad i recognized it and knew the answer (roughly) |
| 17:47.10 | mgeary | :) |
| 17:52.22 | mgeary | that did the trick. thanks, guys |
| 17:52.51 | mgeary | now if anyone knows of a service to restart in order to get rid of a really sore throat, i'm all ears |
| 17:53.11 | mindjuju | hot lemon tea? |
| 17:55.58 | jsmith | mgeary: Stand on your head and gargle peanut butter... |
| 17:56.19 | jsmith | mgeary: It might not solve your sore throat, but it'll certainly keep you distracted from it |
| 17:56.31 | mgeary | ~beat jsmith |
| 17:56.31 | ibot | ACTION beats jsmith with a very wet, sticky noodle |
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| 18:15.22 | itimber | hola |
| 18:16.03 | NoCoolName_Tom | Hola! |
| 18:18.30 | itimber | I love your handle |
| 18:24.46 | mindjuju | if you view a web page via ssl, NONE of those items downloaded in the pageview are cached, right? |
| 18:26.52 | itimber | I believe they are |
| 18:27.00 | itimber | they were just encrypted during transit |
| 18:27.07 | itimber | and decrypted after delivery |
| 18:27.26 | itimber | but I'm guessing on that |
| 18:28.00 | itimber | try to run w/ FireBug on⦠and see what assets are downloaded during a page refresh |
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| 19:29.06 | unum | http://ugotta.org/presentations/unum/webintro/examples/css.html |
| 19:34.57 | mindjuju | unum, nothing on font decoration is complete without marquee |
| 19:42.43 | unum | darn it, mozilla's site seems to have died |
| 19:45.36 | mindjuju | josephscott, got a minute |
| 19:45.47 | josephscott | what's up? |
| 19:46.01 | mindjuju | i'm trying to debug some things with Charles |
| 19:46.15 | mindjuju | specifically, mod_expire |
| 19:46.27 | mindjuju | now, i have it activated in apache httpd.conf |
| 19:46.32 | josephscott | ok |
| 19:46.40 | mindjuju | and it now dumps out Expires: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 19:45:09 GMT |
| 19:46.59 | mindjuju | my understanding though is that on a subsequent request, it should fire off the last modified or etag |
| 19:47.04 | mindjuju | and get a 304 |
| 19:47.28 | mindjuju | but on charles when i "repeat selected request" it give me a 200 |
| 19:47.46 | skinner | The internets doomsday movie: http://technology.todaysbigthing.com/technology/2011/08/24 |
| 19:47.52 | josephscott | is this for a static item, like an image/css/js file? |
| 19:47.54 | mindjuju | can't tell if i'm using charles wrong or this really is an error |
| 19:47.58 | mindjuju | yup static image |
| 19:48.18 | josephscott | you could do the same test in chrome or firefox, don't need a proxy to check on that |
| 19:48.24 | josephscott | or even just curl |
| 19:48.40 | mindjuju | i can't seem to get ff or chrome to give me the actual http header |
| 19:48.45 | mindjuju | i've got ff live http header |
| 19:49.46 | josephscott | for ff use firebug |
| 19:50.03 | mindjuju | k, i'll try that |
| 19:50.18 | mindjuju | i think this really should be easy as pie, i don't know why its so difficult today |
| 19:51.05 | josephscott | probably is something simple some where, config item that hasn't been set |
| 19:51.20 | josephscott | skinner: man, that must have been a bad movie |
| 19:52.24 | skinner | "Your mandate is to police the internet" |
| 19:52.26 | skinner | lol |
| 19:53.33 | *** join/#uphpu Monnok (~monnok@205.204.33.82) |
| 19:53.58 | skinner | "Too many people still think that computer crime is a game played by nerdy youngsters on home computers. Today's most cruel and ruthless criminals use the 'NET'." |
| 19:54.27 | skinner | "We're going to have to do a full reboot"...[of the net] |
| 19:55.53 | mindjuju | well, when you can the internet on a floppy... |
| 19:56.30 | fungus | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTBsm0LzSP0 |
| 19:57.55 | josephscott | that's right, you need at least a shoe box |
| 20:00.23 | skinner | http://bit.ly/ebIbsS |
| 20:00.34 | skinner | http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/mess31.jpg |
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| 20:36.10 | mgeary | mindjuju: i think you a word there |
| 20:37.07 | herlo | mgeary: just like you did? |
| 20:37.50 | herlo | :) |
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| 21:01.16 | ninnypants | can anyone answer some open cart questions for me? |
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| 21:13.07 | mgeary | no, herlo, not in one blow |
| 21:15.46 | Utah_Dave | Woot!! I was just notified that I passed the dCAP exam!! |
| 21:18.21 | mindjuju | the denton county alternative dispute resolution program? |
| 21:18.46 | mindjuju | or the dependent care assistance program? |
| 21:19.30 | mindjuju | prolly not the digium certified asterisk profesional exam |
| 21:19.33 | mindjuju | that's not likely |
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| 21:21.42 | DexterTheDragon | deranged carpenter and plumber |
| 21:22.14 | mindjuju | sounds deadly |
| 21:22.19 | mindjuju | i wonder if i should get deux ex |
| 21:22.23 | Utah_Dave | DexterTheDragon: you nailed it! |
| 21:22.28 | mindjuju | carmony has been raving about it |
| 21:22.38 | mindjuju | and if carmony says its good, well it must be good |
| 21:22.50 | carmony | its was pretty good :) |
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| 21:24.25 | mindjuju | did you finish it carmony? |
| 21:24.30 | carmony | yeah |
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| 22:00.46 | influx | hubbah |
| 22:10.21 | mindjuju | so josephscott, i'm totally confused about this mod_expire and how to test for it |
| 22:10.26 | mindjuju | you busy? |
| 22:10.34 | josephscott | give me a sec |
| 22:10.39 | mindjuju | k, thx |
| 22:12.05 | fungus | mindjuju, Developer tools |
| 22:12.16 | mindjuju | within chrome, yup i'm there |
| 22:12.18 | fungus | look at the headers, both the request and the response |
| 22:12.28 | mindjuju | looking at those, but seeing weirdness |
| 22:12.36 | fungus | look for If-Modified-Since in the request |
| 22:12.44 | fungus | and Expires in the response |
| 22:13.20 | fungus | Ensure all your responses have an Expires tag |
| 22:13.42 | fungus | Unless it's not supposed to of course |
| 22:14.03 | mindjuju | k, so maybe i don't understand what is suppose to happen |
| 22:14.07 | mindjuju | cause i'm there with you |
| 22:14.19 | mindjuju | and i've been testing here for the last hour |
| 22:14.30 | mindjuju | so if a server doesn't have mod_Expire, what should it do |
| 22:14.43 | fungus | it won't have Expires: headers |
| 22:14.48 | herlo | Utah_Dave: haha, thanks for the +1 on G+ :) |
| 22:14.55 | fungus | and it will ignore the If-Modified-Since headers |
| 22:14.59 | mindjuju | @fungus, right, but i mean what is the http response to that |
| 22:15.05 | mindjuju | should be a 200 ok, right? |
| 22:15.10 | fungus | depends |
| 22:15.44 | fungus | If the request includes an If-Modified-Since header with a date before the expiration of a resource, the server will return 304 |
| 22:17.34 | mindjuju | so fungus, let's look at this image real quick if you have a moment |
| 22:17.35 | mindjuju | http://img.costumecraze.com/images/vendors/disguise/5685-large.jpg |
| 22:17.47 | mindjuju | it's suppose to be sally from nightmare before christmas, by the way |
| 22:18.07 | mindjuju | this server DOESN'T have mod_expire enabled on it yet |
| 22:18.30 | mindjuju | so by looking at this, we see no expiration date |
| 22:18.36 | fungus | correct |
| 22:18.38 | mindjuju | that's expected |
| 22:19.13 | mindjuju | so what is the disadvantage of not running mod_expires, it should require the image to be downloaded everytime? |
| 22:19.21 | fungus | yes |
| 22:19.44 | fungus | Unless the ETag matches |
| 22:19.50 | fungus | Your server is serving up those |
| 22:20.12 | mindjuju | k, that's what i expected |
| 22:20.19 | mindjuju | now, i refresh the image |
| 22:20.31 | mindjuju | when it refreshes, i get a 304 |
| 22:20.35 | mindjuju | unexpected |
| 22:21.01 | fungus | no, because the request likely has a If-None-Match header |
| 22:21.20 | mindjuju | it does have that tag |
| 22:21.22 | fungus | And this completes the caching loop |
| 22:21.36 | fungus | If-None-Match and ETag go together |
| 22:21.39 | josephscott | mindjuju: I've got a curl example for you :-) |
| 22:21.47 | josephscott | curl -v http://www.google.com/intl/en_com/images/srpr/logo3w.png > /dev/null |
| 22:22.00 | fungus | mod_expires is another way to handle the caching policy. |
| 22:22.02 | josephscott | that will show you headers for the Google logo image file |
| 22:22.15 | josephscott | curl -v -H 'If-Modified-Since: Fri, 05 Aug 2011 02:40:26 GMT' http://www.google.com/intl/en_com/images/srpr/logo3w.png > /dev/null |
| 22:22.29 | josephscott | asks to download it only if it has been modified since that time |
| 22:22.40 | josephscott | which is hasn't so you get a HTTP/1.1 304 Not Modified back |
| 22:22.40 | mindjuju | so what is benefit of running mod_expires on this server if it already has a caching enabled? |
| 22:23.04 | fungus | If you want to control caching policy based on date, instead of content tagging |
| 22:23.41 | mindjuju | k, i understand |
| 22:24.08 | mindjuju | so then, the i think the goal and the solution don't match |
| 22:24.28 | fungus | what is your goal? |
| 22:24.28 | mindjuju | the goal was to have people cache images on their computer to reduce load on this server. |
| 22:24.38 | mindjuju | the reality is that there is already a form of caching on this server |
| 22:24.49 | fungus | yes |
| 22:24.56 | mindjuju | load won't be offset by any |
| 22:25.12 | fungus | not necessarily |
| 22:25.38 | fungus | caching by date could make someone cache a resource even after it has changed. |
| 22:25.56 | fungus | That might be a bad thing for you, however, depends on your needs. |
| 22:26.05 | mindjuju | i thought that at the beginning, but i don't think that is the case anymore |
| 22:26.17 | mindjuju | from what i've read, if the if-modified or the eTag is different |
| 22:26.26 | fungus | yes |
| 22:26.28 | mindjuju | the server will return 200 ok with the new image |
| 22:26.48 | fungus | ETag and Expires are two different ways to control caching |
| 22:27.02 | mindjuju | so, expire date won't cause old images to display because there is a check on it to see if new content |
| 22:27.07 | josephscott | I feel a caching presentation given by mindjuju in UPHPU's future |
| 22:27.21 | mindjuju | yeah, when i get this all figured out, i'd gladly do it :) |
| 22:27.38 | fungus | if both are enabled, I believe that if either match, it will return 404 |
| 22:27.41 | fungus | err, 304 |
| 22:27.42 | josephscott | exactly, after learning all of this, good time share |
| 22:28.21 | josephscott | fungus: what vegetarian meal do you want for WordCamp SLC? |
| 22:28.33 | josephscott | I've got a handful of folks who registered with that meal choice |
| 22:28.37 | josephscott | and one vegan |
| 22:28.54 | josephscott | so I'm looking for someplace besides the BBQ joint for their meals :-) |
| 22:30.36 | fungus | just providing options w/o meat is good enough. A few different sides would be fine. |
| 22:31.43 | josephscott | I'd like to make sure the vegetarians are well taken care of too, is there something nice you'd like for lunch from some place around UoU? |
| 22:31.45 | herlo | josephscott: salad! |
| 22:31.55 | josephscott | here we go again :-) |
| 22:31.58 | herlo | lol |
| 22:32.09 | fungus | heh, salad is good. |
| 22:32.36 | fungus | Not sure of anything by the U other than the Pie |
| 22:33.43 | mindjuju | so fungus, if i'm understanding then, if i remove the If-None-Match then it'll rely solely on the if-modified or etag, this might give us a slightly better result? |
| 22:34.05 | fungus | You might be confused. |
| 22:34.11 | mindjuju | that i am |
| 22:34.27 | josephscott | if-none-match is what the client sends to the server |
| 22:34.31 | fungus | ETag is the response, and If-None-Match is the request. This is the pair that works together |
| 22:35.00 | fungus | Expires is a response, and If-Modified-Since is a request header in this pair |
| 22:35.17 | mindjuju | oh |
| 22:35.52 | mindjuju | k, i see that in the http header |
| 22:36.23 | fungus | You only need to futz w/ mod_expires if you want caching to be date based. |
| 22:36.39 | mindjuju | k, else the other is in effect |
| 22:37.21 | fungus | If both methods are enabled I think either match will cause a 304 |
| 22:38.43 | mindjuju | i appreciate your help fungus, and I do have RFC2616 up which discusses all of this |
| 22:38.44 | josephscott | etag is considered a strong validator (unless specified as weak by the server) |
| 22:39.43 | mindjuju | so i'm curious, why am i failing this? http://www.webpagetest.org/result/110830_CF_1F30R/1/performance_optimization/#cache_static_content |
| 22:41.27 | mindjuju | i mean, i see that i have no max-age or expires (which comes with mod_expires), but the other one is the same, right |
| 22:41.39 | fungus | you don't have a max-age policy set |
| 22:42.16 | fungus | Cache-Control: max-age=<TTL> |
| 22:43.53 | *** part/#uphpu skinner (~david@128.187.202.41) |
| 22:44.27 | mindjuju | i feel like the biggest dolt this side of the pecos, cause i've read literally like 100 pages in various books, websites (no joke or exaggeration ) and nobody covered this |
| 22:45.29 | mindjuju | i fail to see how anybody is benefited by applying a date to something when it already has if-none-match >etag |
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| 22:47.05 | mindjuju | @fungus, if i've understood our conversatoin correctly, adding said date will benefit me little |
| 22:47.26 | fungus | pretty much. |
| 22:47.39 | mindjuju | oh good, so i did understand |
| 22:48.15 | mindjuju | so last question then fungus, and i promise to leave you alone for at least a fortnight and buy your food at uphpu afterhours |
| 22:49.14 | mindjuju | my options for improving performance here is a CDN or a second server |
| 22:51.31 | fungus | are you having performance problems? |
| 22:51.51 | mindjuju | yeah, website slow when under heavy load was noticed last year |
| 22:52.46 | mindjuju | looking at this, i can see that the downloading of content is where we are getting killed |
| 22:52.46 | mindjuju | http://www.webpagetest.org/result/110830_CF_1F30R/1/details/ |
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| 22:54.49 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+vovv itimber Utah_Dave josephscott herlo] by zelazny.freenode.net |
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| 22:54.54 | fungus | Yeah, looks like a few resources are slow to download |
| 22:55.17 | fungus | not slow to start, so it could be a bandwidth or I/O issue |
| 22:56.09 | mindjuju | if i gave this guy a ton of ram and enabled memcache, i'd tell pretty quick if it was io or bandwidth |
| 22:56.12 | mindjuju | no? |
| 22:56.51 | fungus | ram and/or memcache has no effect on bandwidth issues. |
| 22:57.07 | mindjuju | right, but it would resolve an IO issue |
| 22:58.15 | fungus | Looking at that graph i see two issues |
| 22:58.38 | fungus | initial request SKEL03.html took 2.4 sec to load by itself |
| 22:59.08 | fungus | also, the Document complete didn't finish until after the image in #35 |
| 23:03.32 | fungus | If your page can't render while waiting for a slow image, it is very painful for a user |
| 23:03.53 | fungus | That's an HTML/CSS issue |
| 23:04.48 | mindjuju | so i need to work on bandwidth and IO on www.costumecraze.com, |
| 23:05.02 | fungus | maybe |
| 23:05.10 | fungus | you need to determine the cause |
| 23:05.35 | mindjuju | on img, most of the images loaded fast, there were a couple that were slow |
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| 23:05.51 | mindjuju | how would i test for cause? |
| 23:05.56 | fungus | look at the bandwidth usage. Is it close to max? |
| 23:06.23 | fungus | Look at IO stats/wait times at time of problem |
| 23:08.49 | fungus | for IO you can use vmstat. Examine the IO columns, as well as the CPU wa column |
| 23:09.33 | fungus | What kind of bandwidth do you |
| 23:09.34 | fungus | have |
| 23:10.02 | fungus | Do you have a device at the border that supports SNMP? attach a graphing system to it. |
| 23:10.20 | mindjuju | yup |
| 23:10.28 | mindjuju | provided by the service provider |
| 23:11.04 | fungus | So just compare the usage to you maximum. If you are close to max, you can get packet loss and slow transfers |
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