IRC log for #uphpu on 20110606

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15:29.32influxDoes anyone here have a site with a self-signed SSL certificate they can let me browse for a moment?
15:30.21influxI found a bug in an application I use and would like to figure something out.
15:31.03fungusI have a bunch, but they are all internal
15:34.44fungusinflux, i found one
15:34.46fungushttps://zirconium.workfirstcasualty.com/
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16:04.04influxThanks, fungus.
16:04.07influx:)
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16:16.03mahelioushttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTBsm0LzSP0
16:16.42mindjujulove IT crowd
16:18.25influxI already do.
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16:24.58influx:D
16:25.14josephscottyou need the scenes before that as well
16:26.46josephscottmahelious: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDA1HUmuuJo
16:30.15maheliousive tried to start watching IT Crowd and couldnt get into it.  it must get better as it goes.
16:33.52josephscottI've only watched a few clips, 'The Internet' is a classic one
16:34.11mindjujuwife and I love it
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17:03.43mindjujuitimber, that shade of blue doesn't suit you well
17:03.45mindjuju:)
17:08.31itimberno?
17:08.43mindjuju:)
17:08.46itimberI know I don't participate like I used to years ago
17:08.52itimberam I getting demoted??
17:08.56itimber:-(
17:09.00itimber:-(
17:09.08mindjujudemoted?
17:09.13jsmithmindjuju: Happy Birthday!  Or, at least, Happy Fake Birthday You Gave to Facebook!
17:09.42mindjujuthx jsmith!
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17:28.40carmonyso who is watching WWDC?
17:28.43carmonythe liveblogs
17:29.36jsmith-awayNot I!
17:30.03mindjujujsmith-away: get some popeyes
17:32.44herlolol
17:33.35jsmith-awaymindjuju: I may do that :-)
17:34.22wpsreset style sheets are bad, bad, bad
17:34.31*** topic/#UPHPU by macnewbold -> Utah PHP Users group | uphpu.org | Happy Birthday to mindjuju!
17:34.45macnewboldcome on wps, everyone's doin it
17:34.50macnewbold;)
17:34.54mindjujuthx macnewbold!
17:36.12macnewboldthe only good thing I have to say about them is at least they get IE and normal browsers onto some somewhat equal footing
17:36.51mgeary"reset style sheets" ?
17:37.06mindjujuyeah, it's a page you load that makes all things equal
17:37.20mindjujulike elements around forms render differently in IE than FF, a reset page fixes that
17:37.51macnewboldand often turns off (annoyingly) a lot of normal default behavior, like making almost every tag act like a plain span or div
17:38.04josephscottwps: curious what specifically you don't like about reset CSS
17:38.04mindjuju@mgeary - http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/css/reset/
17:38.08mindjujuhere is one
17:38.16mgearymindjuju: heh. yeah, that's what i'm looking at now
17:38.36mgearyah, i see
17:38.48josephscottmindjuju: problem with that example is that it is only half a reset
17:38.50mgearynormalizes various otherwise disparate defaults
17:39.11mindjujufirst one i could find quickly
17:39.33josephscottthe yui lib provides a full reset (across three files) - http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/3/
17:50.23wpsreset style sheets destroy the point of symantic markup
17:50.29wpsyou might as well code everything in divs
17:50.35wpsthere are defaults for a reason
17:51.11wpswhat's the point in having different tags if they have all be reset to zero (zero margins, zero padding, zero everything) and behave the same
17:51.29wpsand why have to go through and define your own styles for everything when many of the defaults will do?
17:51.35wpsthere are defaults for a reason
17:51.54wpsyour style sheet should be to make it your own… not to start from scratch and re-invent the wheel with each new site
17:56.36josephscottwps: sounds like you are only looking at the half reset styles
17:56.53josephscottcheck out the yui item I linked to
18:02.35influxarf
18:16.28carmonywps: I think its mostly because certain defaults (such as margin/padding) behave differently between browsers (most notible, IE vs Everyone Else)
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18:59.26fungussqueee!
18:59.41fungusGoogle Music, eat your heart out
19:04.08influx?
19:05.52herlofungus: icloud?
19:05.59fungusyup
19:06.08herlosuch a lock-in
19:06.21fungusNot really.
19:06.23herlodoes it work with android devices or IBM laptops?
19:06.33herlos/IBM/any/
19:06.35fungusIBM laptops, yes
19:06.44fungusandroid.... probably not
19:06.50herlobut I have to install some sort of apple software, no?
19:06.53fungusit's iTunes
19:06.54DexterTheDragonbut only if your running itunes on windows
19:06.57herlolock-in
19:07.52fungusGoogle Music is lock-in as well.
19:08.27herlofungus: I'm not arguing for Google Music
19:08.34herloI'm arguing against lock-in
19:08.37fungusactually lock-in is the wrong word for both.  Because both let you escape easily, you are just limited in use.
19:08.57beandogthats a fair asessment
19:09.03beandogso its limited usage
19:09.20herlofungus: if I want iCloud, I *have* to use apple software, no?
19:09.31funguslock-in implies you can't leave.  Neither service have anything holding you in.
19:09.43beandogapple ecosystem
19:09.52beandogonly plays with their devices
19:12.19fungusI think lock-in means you are stuck with a platform due to the inability to take your data with you.
19:12.36funguseg. iPhone App-Store
19:13.06herlojsmith: I can guess for you; zero
19:13.18herlounless you pay a royalty to develop for it
19:13.27fungusiCloud includes more than just iTunes.  It does calendar, contacts, mail, etc.
19:13.43beandogdo they do time machine backups
19:14.27fungus"they"?
19:14.35beandogicloud
19:14.39beandogyou know what I mean
19:15.02fungusI'm pretty sure that Apple practices a good backup strategy in their data center.
19:15.33beandog?
19:15.36beandogI'm talking about desktop users
19:16.04mgearymy issue is that i have a Drobo with all my music and movies on it. I want to use *my* "cloud", not Apple's
19:16.12mgearybut i want to be able to access it from anywhere
19:16.18mgearynot just on my LAN
19:16.32jsmithmgeary: You want a cloud filesystem :-)
19:16.33beandogmgeary: I can do that for you
19:16.38beandogjust give me your drobo, and all will be wonderful
19:16.49jsmithmgeary: Something like CloudFS or sheepdog :-p
19:17.49beandogNBD is all the rage!
19:18.07beandogactually its probably not that.
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19:23.48beandogand here's josephscott to answer all our questions
19:23.55josephscott?
19:23.55beandog$8ball does everything suck
19:23.55raifbotbeandog - My sources say no.
19:24.00beandog$8ball does most everything suck
19:24.01raifbotbeandog - You may rely on it.
19:29.03mgearyan important distinction
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20:11.19josephscott$weather 84092
20:11.19raifbot3josephscott - 0,2current weather for 84092 - Mostly Cloudy 82f / 28c Humidity: 15% Wind: S at 23 mph
20:11.33josephscottwent out for a walk earlier, crazy wind
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20:18.19herloya
20:18.29herlowas pretty crazy here for quite a few minutes
20:30.52beandog~cloud carmony
20:31.00beandogwe need an action for that one.
20:31.15beandogmindjuju: happy birthday
20:36.40carmonyman, the php internals list can be brutal :P
20:38.09mindjujuthx beandog
20:40.10beandogwow, I just crashed Finder
20:41.21carmonylol, I don't think I've ever crashed Finder
20:41.50beandogI can even duplicate the crash
20:41.51beandogwhee
20:41.53mindjujuso fungus / herlo and other sysadm demi-gods, i've got a computer that has 2 front facing bays for SATA and the caddys allow you to just yank the drives out, looks really cool, i just put ubuntu 11.04 with the thouht of putting on zmanda (can you imagine hot swap with zmanda?)
20:42.06mindjujuand then i started to wonder if that is even possible without powering down?
20:42.09mindjujuso is it?
20:42.35fungusdepends on the controller
20:42.42mindjujufrom what google research appears to show, it depended on mobo
20:42.44mindjujuyeah
20:43.05fungusmost controllers installed with hot swap bays are also hot swappable.
20:43.06mindjujuk, so more research required, so question then, how will linux react to hdd just disappearing?
20:43.34fungusYour software will need to rescan the bus.
20:43.36mindjujuprolly need to unmount, but anything more?
20:43.44macnewbolddepends which hdd - hdd holding the OS is a little more tricky than a secondary hdd
20:43.57fungusif zmanda doesn't handle it for you
20:44.09mindjujuoh yeah, not primary HDD for sure, just the drives used for backup
20:44.11mindjuju:)
20:44.28fungusfor secondary drive, unmount, and yank, add new one, rescan, mount
20:44.35fungusin a nutshell anyway
20:44.47fungusMany backup programs AFAIK handle this for you.
20:44.56mindjujuk
20:45.00mindjujusounds easy enough
20:46.56mindjujuso fungus, have you heard anything good about zmanda?
20:47.47fungusi haven't heard anything about that one in particular.
20:47.57mindjujuis there one you'd recommend?
20:48.08mindjujubacula (i think it's called)?
20:50.33beandogmindjuju: you looking at backup solutions?
20:50.38mindjujuyup
20:50.41mindjujuyou got one?
20:50.45beandogmindjuju: no, I need one.
20:51.38mindjujui'll keep you posted on what the collective says
20:52.09beandoggratzie.
20:52.58josephscottpost on uphpu.org to summarize the info would be good
20:53.24beandoglast time I looked at em, it seemed like they were all using tape backups or something silly
20:53.32beandogwell, tape != silly, but I dont use that.
21:05.29fungusI read about Amanda, and Bacula.  Both were way to complex for my needs at the time, so I didnt' get too far into either of them.
21:05.45mindjuju@beandog, hoping to backup to 5x 2TB drives.  1 for incremental and the rest for weekly backups
21:06.09mindjuju@fungus, there is a difference between Amanda and Zmanda, i think zmanda is the FOSS and A is the supported
21:06.11mindjujubut i'm not sure
21:06.25fungusi'm not sure either.  I know they are related though
21:07.46fungusAt that time, I just used a script to dump the entire filesystems of servers to a NAS which itself did a tape backup nightly.
21:08.43fungusNow i use an incredibly complicated, insanely expensive, but really cool IBM Tivoli
21:11.23beandogjust the name makes it sound complicated and expensive
21:12.50macnewboldof course, its italian
21:19.28mgearyso it also breaks down every 400 miles?
21:21.31beandoglol
21:21.47influxAnd ogles your woman.
21:21.50beandogI had a good joke too, but I decided to withhold in the face of propriety
21:22.19beandog~win mgeary
21:22.19ibotCongratulations, mgeary! You have won a lifetime supply of spam!
21:27.34mindjuju:)
21:28.42beandogSo, what happens if an app is trying to access a mysql database while its being backed up
21:29.18DexterTheDragonbeandog: what is the app attempting to do?
21:29.26beandogDexterTheDragon: just websites
21:29.30beandog*website
21:29.44DexterTheDragonreading should be fine during a back
21:29.45beandogso just normal reads/writes
21:29.50DexterTheDragonup
21:30.13mindjujui think on backup writes are nto allowed
21:30.19DexterTheDragonI believe mysqldump usually locks tables for writing while its running
21:30.22mindjujutable locked
21:30.25mindjujuyeah
21:30.27beandogokay
21:30.27beandog:T
21:30.34DexterTheDragonbut there is an option to not do that I believe
21:30.34beandogdoes it lock all the tables at once
21:30.38beandogor just the ones it's reading
21:30.40mindjujufor innodb, the backup is done in a way where no locks
21:31.05DexterTheDragonbeandog: I think it does it one by one
21:31.12beandoghmm
21:31.13beandogokay
21:31.17beandogI wanna do hourly backups just to be safe
21:31.22beandogbut I don't wanna piss off any users
21:31.53mindjujuwith pitchforks and torches
21:31.58mindjujuscary
21:32.24beandoghmm
21:34.01beandogIf the update statements that the MySQL server receives are short (in terms of execution time), the
21:34.01beandog<PROTECTED>
21:34.24beandogI think Ill read up a bit more first
21:34.36DexterTheDragonbeandog: yep by default it locks MyISAM tables one by one
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21:35.04beandogokay
21:35.05beandogthanks guys
21:35.06DexterTheDragonfor inodb it's recommended to use --single-transaction
21:35.42beandogyah these are all myisam
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21:53.26mgeary~facepalm Anthony Wiener
21:53.26ibotACTION paints Anthony Wiener 's face with crushed heart of palm
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22:42.27josephscottpython errors can be so useless some times
22:43.04josephscott"SyntaxError: invalid syntax" - yeah, thanks
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