| 00:17.30 | herlo | man, this pack is pretty cool: http://www.astrogaming.co.uk/gear-bags/astro-scout-backpack |
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| 06:29.30 | ninnypants | $chuck-fact |
| 06:29.30 | raifbot | Chuck Norris frequently donates blood to the Red Cross. Just never his own. |
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| 08:20.34 | ninnypants | $chuck-fact |
| 08:20.34 | raifbot | "The only thing we have to fear is Chuck Norris himself." - Franklin D. Roosevelt |
| 09:05.00 | influx | Hullo. |
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| 13:47.08 | itimber | need⦠coffee... |
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| 15:03.38 | josephscott | $chuck-fact |
| 15:03.39 | raifbot | Chuck Norris' hand is the only hand that can beat a Royal Flush. |
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| 15:11.21 | influx | mawnin |
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| 15:47.06 | skinner | 2 allergy pills + mountain dew is reeeeeeaaaaaly......straaaaaange....... |
| 15:47.44 | SunSparc | ~MtnDew |
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| 15:55.01 | carmony | josephscott: you hear anything about a mass DDoS to LayeredTech? :P |
| 15:57.18 | SunSparc | ~Mountain Dew |
| 15:57.19 | ibot | it has been said that mountain dew is Green Caffeine, or the Elixir of the Gods. This counts as both a Guardian Elixir and Battle Elixir. |
| 15:57.59 | josephscott | carmony: today? |
| 15:57.59 | carmony | yeah |
| 15:58.01 | josephscott | there are DDoS attacks at LT every day |
| 15:58.12 | carmony | well, LT just null routed a server |
| 15:58.16 | carmony | of ours |
| 15:58.19 | josephscott | ouch |
| 15:58.25 | SunSparc | ~DDOS LayeredTech |
| 15:58.25 | ibot | ACTION about to DOS LayeredTech just for fun "Take that" |
| 15:58.33 | carmony | saying "We're expreriencing wide DDoS attacks on your IP Range" |
| 15:58.33 | josephscott | where you part of a botnet that was launching the DDoS? |
| 15:58.43 | carmony | I sure hope not |
| 15:58.44 | carmony | :P |
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| 16:08.05 | fungus | "attacks on your IP" seems to infer him being a target, not a perpetrator. |
| 16:08.39 | fungus | From their perspective it's probably better to piss off one customer, than all of them. |
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| 16:16.46 | TuxToaster | $rlart |
| 16:16.47 | raifbot | beats itimber1 severely about the head and shoulders with a rubber chicken. |
| 16:18.21 | mindjuju | suggested reading for mgeary @ lunch - http://worrydream.com/KillMath/ |
| 16:18.25 | mindjuju | interesting idea |
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| 16:43.41 | josephscott | From the redundant URL department : http://music.google.com/music/ |
| 16:43.51 | josephscott | From the redundant URL department : http://music.google.com/music/ |
| 16:44.14 | mindjuju | wow, microsoft to buy skype? for 8.5b? |
| 16:44.27 | mindjuju | http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110510/ts_nm/us_skype_microsoft |
| 16:50.28 | influx | mao mao |
| 16:52.15 | fungus | https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/priority-projects/#skypereplacement |
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| 17:03.41 | mindjuju | point well made fungus |
| 17:03.46 | mindjuju | ~fungus++ |
| 17:06.37 | josephscott | carmony: did you get your LT server back? |
| 17:08.09 | josephscott | that text implies incorrect thinking |
| 17:08.10 | josephscott | "Using proprietary phone software means that we can't be sure who is listening in, because we can't see the code." |
| 17:08.36 | mindjuju | how so? |
| 17:08.38 | josephscott | the implied feeling is that if you were just using open source software/algorithms then no one would be able to listen in on your calls |
| 17:08.39 | beandog | how's that |
| 17:08.47 | josephscott | which clearly isn't true |
| 17:08.56 | beandog | josephscott: the implication is that with oss you'd know that there wasn't code allowing backdoors. |
| 17:09.32 | josephscott | beandog: that is different from being sure no one is listening in on your calls |
| 17:09.45 | josephscott | and open source hardly prevents back doors |
| 17:09.50 | josephscott | it is open source, not magic |
| 17:09.52 | beandog | the point is, its closed, so nobody knows what it's doing. It could mean anything, including sniffing by third parties. |
| 17:09.54 | mindjuju | hmm, i read it a little different |
| 17:10.05 | mindjuju | i think "we can't be sure who " qualifies |
| 17:10.12 | mindjuju | and asserts beandogs point |
| 17:10.25 | josephscott | beandog: being open source doesn't solve any of those issues |
| 17:10.31 | josephscott | it simply shifts them |
| 17:10.37 | itimber1 | ~lart TuxToaster |
| 17:10.37 | ibot | grabs a large, mis-shapened log, with squirrels, and beats TuxToaster until only the nuts remain ... which the squirrels run off with |
| 17:10.41 | beandog | josephscott: well now you're attacking my example issues instead of my reading of the implication. :) |
| 17:10.52 | TuxToaster | *gasp* |
| 17:11.06 | josephscott | I get it, it is good propaganda to get people rilled up emotionally, but that doesn't mean the arguement is good/accurate |
| 17:11.07 | TuxToaster | $lart ibot |
| 17:11.07 | raifbot | wielding the mighty hammer of Thor, Mjolnir, I summon lighting to destroy ibot. |
| 17:11.20 | beandog | Im not gonna rehash the merits, the argument is simple .. its closed, therefore, there could be secrets we don't know about |
| 17:11.39 | beandog | josephscott: I agree they are making their own assumptions, but it's probably not too far off course. |
| 17:12.17 | josephscott | I think there are valid reasons for wanting an open source skype replacement, I think trying to scare people with FUD isn't one of those valid reasons |
| 17:12.24 | beandog | I didnt read it as FUD |
| 17:12.28 | josephscott | FUD goes both ways :-) |
| 17:12.29 | mindjuju | yeah, same |
| 17:12.34 | mindjuju | i didn't see it as FUD |
| 17:12.42 | beandog | I totally didnt read it as sensational, either |
| 17:12.50 | skinner | That's because..... |
| 17:12.52 | skinner | You'll hear it first...like the sound of a giant waterfall, they say... |
| 17:12.54 | beandog | considering it's FSF, I thought it was well written |
| 17:12.56 | beandog | heh |
| 17:13.07 | mindjuju | is it true thatChina is monitoring dissident speech skype? |
| 17:13.14 | mindjuju | yup, true that |
| 17:13.35 | josephscott | and would them using an open source replacement make it impossible for China to continue to do that? |
| 17:13.39 | beandog | Also, its true that we know that MS works with govt's to share secrets about their software |
| 17:14.05 | beandog | So, it makes sense that there's no telling what MS is gonna do next. Countries hate that they can't sniff skype b/c of the encryption |
| 17:14.06 | mindjuju | @josephscott, maybe / maybe not, but the fact of the matter is that at least with OSS, you'd know |
| 17:14.14 | mindjuju | or modify to make more secure |
| 17:14.18 | beandog | mindjuju: right |
| 17:14.22 | josephscott | mindjuju: no you wouldn't |
| 17:14.25 | beandog | OSS just means more options |
| 17:14.29 | beandog | not more guarantees. |
| 17:14.47 | mindjuju | i think there is a difference between complicit arrangement for monitoring (skype) and software that currently may not be the most secure, but could be changed |
| 17:15.15 | beandog | You can pick between software that you assume you know what it's doing, and software you can audit and know for sure what it's doing. |
| 17:15.24 | mindjuju | bing |
| 17:15.28 | mindjuju | that's it exactly |
| 17:15.29 | beandog | Once it goes onto the wire, though, you can't guarantee anything. |
| 17:15.45 | beandog | I mean, its reasonable once *anything* gets on the Net it could be monitored / decrypted by deep pockets |
| 17:15.47 | josephscott | so open source magically defeats man in the middle attacks now? sweet! |
| 17:16.02 | beandog | josephscott: you're the one being emotional |
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| 17:16.19 | mindjuju | i'm having a hard time tracking your argument josephscott |
| 17:16.24 | beandog | me too, honestly. |
| 17:16.24 | josephscott | yes, I'm ticked that people use open source to imply false statements |
| 17:16.37 | josephscott | the EFF of all folks should know better |
| 17:16.46 | carmony | I hate my internet here in Cali |
| 17:16.47 | beandog | the EFF have always been hand-waving fudsters |
| 17:16.53 | mindjuju | that was fsf, not eff, wasn't it? |
| 17:16.56 | beandog | that's totally normal for them |
| 17:17.23 | beandog | I mean |
| 17:17.26 | beandog | Go read slashdot for a day |
| 17:17.32 | beandog | You'd think software patents kill babies in their sleep. |
| 17:17.47 | josephscott | people still read /. ? |
| 17:17.49 | beandog | josephscott: so yah, I agree, I hate the FUD ... but I totally didn't read that link as FUD-filled at all |
| 17:17.57 | beandog | josephscott: man, I don't .. way too sensationalist. |
| 17:18.14 | mindjuju | i read digg out of habit |
| 17:18.26 | josephscott | I only pulled one line out: "Using proprietary phone software means that we can't be sure who is listening in, because we can't see the code." |
| 17:18.27 | mindjuju | i think fungus reads boingboing |
| 17:18.40 | beandog | josephscott: well, cause might not lead to effect |
| 17:18.44 | beandog | but both of those are true |
| 17:18.51 | beandog | "we can't be sure" "we can't see the code" |
| 17:18.52 | beandog | both true |
| 17:19.05 | fungus | nope, i found that link from eightyeight's twitter stream |
| 17:19.11 | josephscott | yes, but it implies that if you simply were using open source then you could be sure |
| 17:19.14 | beandog | Although, I guess you can never be sure who is listening. |
| 17:19.26 | beandog | josephscott: right, but at least with OSS you can have more safeguards |
| 17:19.45 | beandog | I mean, it's gonna make it at least harder if you know there' snot code in there to decrypt anything going through .cn |
| 17:19.56 | fungus | ooh, Free software debate. fun. let me read history to catch up |
| 17:19.58 | josephscott | that is my point, use valid agreements to make your case, not made up bits |
| 17:20.02 | mgeary | i hate snot code |
| 17:20.08 | beandog | ~sneeze mgeary |
| 17:20.28 | beandog | josephscott: okay, so the argument lacked a bit of detail |
| 17:20.33 | beandog | I think it's still correct though |
| 17:20.42 | beandog | If you don't read it too closely |
| 17:20.43 | beandog | but whatever. |
| 17:20.51 | beandog | I think you just have a bone to pick, and picked this target to lart |
| 17:21.05 | beandog | I totally agree with you, about not using FUD and hand-waving epidemics to promote OSS |
| 17:21.09 | josephscott | yes, I'm not a fan of either side spreading FUD |
| 17:21.10 | beandog | but I think the example you cited is mostly okay |
| 17:21.31 | beandog | If you want something to easily shoot holes through, go find a talk by rms |
| 17:21.39 | beandog | I'm sure then we'll all agree to the foofdom. |
| 17:21.49 | josephscott | haha, RMS has a ... certain point of view :-) |
| 17:22.13 | beandog | agreed |
| 17:22.17 | josephscott | have you ever watched him live? or chatted with him? it is, well, interesting |
| 17:22.31 | beandog | and the FSF and EFF often go a bit overboard in their stuff as well |
| 17:22.53 | beandog | he's a charismatic guy. But we need fringe characters so we can find some stability somewhere in the middle. |
| 17:23.31 | josephscott | I don't think I would call it charismatic |
| 17:23.40 | beandog | animated? |
| 17:23.48 | mindjuju | compelling? |
| 17:23.53 | josephscott | I was thinking more like bizarre :-) |
| 17:24.00 | fungus | lol, RMS charismatic? that's hysterical. |
| 17:24.28 | beandog | :) |
| 17:25.37 | fungus | josephscott, i disagree. The statement "Using proprietary phone software means that we can't be sure who is listening in, because we can't see the code." |
| 17:25.41 | fungus | is not FUD at all |
| 17:26.06 | fungus | It's accurate. |
| 17:26.16 | fungus | You can't be sure who is listening in. |
| 17:26.19 | josephscott | having your call sniffed is not dependent on being open source or proprietary |
| 17:26.54 | josephscott | it's a completely unrelated point |
| 17:26.57 | fungus | The statement clearly says that you can't be sure if it's being sniffed because it's proprietary. |
| 17:27.06 | fungus | If it were open source, you could be sure. |
| 17:27.11 | fungus | encryption and what-not |
| 17:27.15 | DexterTheDragon | http://www.blackhat.com/presentations/bh-europe-06/bh-eu-06-biondi/bh-eu-06-biondi-up.pdf |
| 17:27.15 | josephscott | no you, can't :-) |
| 17:27.32 | josephscott | open source is a license, not magic |
| 17:27.42 | fungus | The statement isn't about that |
| 17:27.59 | fungus | it just means that it's impossible for a user to know if encryption is used, and how it is used. |
| 17:28.08 | fungus | Open source means the user *can* know. |
| 17:28.24 | josephscott | being open source doesn't stop man in the middle attacks, see ssl as example #1 |
| 17:28.28 | fungus | The statement is about the ability for a user to be able to tell. |
| 17:28.53 | beandog | DexterTheDragon: "From a network security administrator point of view" section, wow. |
| 17:29.10 | josephscott | open source means you can review the code, change, etc. it doesn't some how grant you the ability to prevent attacks while packets cross the net |
| 17:29.13 | fungus | that point is wrong. if it's open source you *can* know of vulnerabilities. |
| 17:29.30 | fungus | It doesn't mean open source has no vulnerabilities. It just means it's knowable. |
| 17:30.08 | fungus | BTW SSL MITM attacks are impossible if both ends have previously obtained the public certs though a trusted mechanism. |
| 17:30.35 | beandog | DexterTheDragon: man this is fascinating |
| 17:30.54 | fungus | josephscott, the phrase used by the FSF, only indicates the "knowability" of the source code. |
| 17:31.06 | fungus | It doesn't imply any security at all. |
| 17:31.06 | DexterTheDragon | beandog: I read the whole thing this morning. it's interesting |
| 17:31.33 | fungus | You are reading into it, and not accepting what it says at face value. |
| 17:32.05 | josephscott | correct, I don't buy that being able to see the code means that I can know who is listening in |
| 17:32.06 | fungus | doh. I gotta head out. brb. |
| 17:33.09 | josephscott | DexterTheDragon: some hard core analysis there :-) |
| 17:33.18 | beandog | srsly |
| 17:41.16 | eggyknap | mindjuju: ping |
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| 17:51.00 | beandog | Am I being paranoid if I add checks in my firewall to see that the source is on the lan? |
| 17:52.48 | beandog | or restricing to mac addresses |
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| 17:59.11 | beandog | ~welcome carmony |
| 17:59.12 | ibot | Welcome to the party, carmony! |
| 17:59.44 | josephscott | carmony: in CA already? |
| 18:02.20 | fungus | beandog, no, for the IP checks. yes, for MAC address. |
| 18:02.49 | beandog | why not the ip ones? |
| 18:03.42 | fungus | i meant, no you are not paranoid. |
| 18:04.08 | fungus | Doing IP spoof prevention is good. But MAC address filtering in a firewall is paranoid, and painful. |
| 18:04.19 | beandog | okay |
| 18:04.23 | beandog | thx mon. |
| 18:07.05 | fungus | let me clarify. MAC address filtering in a firewall is paranoid, unless you have a real possible threat of attackers on your physical layer. |
| 18:07.20 | fungus | But that threat really should be solved via physical security first. |
| 18:07.24 | beandog | ok |
| 18:09.34 | *** join/#uphpu carmony (~justin@ip70-181-211-152.sd.sd.cox.net) |
| 18:09.34 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v carmony] by ChanServ |
| 18:10.14 | carmony | I think it might be better if I tethered from my bloody phone... |
| 18:11.19 | fungus | ~tether carmony |
| 18:14.56 | beandog | http://www.wbshop.com/Mister-T-The-Complete-First-Season-Animated-Series/1000203713,default,pd.html?cgid=ARCHIVENEW |
| 18:16.50 | SunSparc | beandog: Do you have any hobbies that do not include classic media? |
| 18:19.19 | beandog | SunSparc: uh |
| 18:19.49 | beandog | thats a good question |
| 18:20.08 | beandog | I like programming |
| 18:20.18 | beandog | and writing |
| 18:21.33 | SunSparc | :) |
| 18:28.09 | *** join/#uphpu carmony (~justin@ip70-181-211-152.sd.sd.cox.net) |
| 18:28.09 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v carmony] by ChanServ |
| 18:29.51 | *** join/#uphpu jkr801 (~jkr801@70.103.91.98) |
| 18:33.07 | SunSparc | ~cookie SunSparc |
| 18:33.33 | mgeary | ohh, the suspense |
| 18:33.40 | josephscott | $rlart |
| 18:33.40 | raifbot | drops a humongous exploding nuke on jkr801. |
| 18:34.50 | SunSparc | ~whoami |
| 18:34.50 | ibot | you are sunsparc, or ~jonathan@24-104-129.146.hfc.mediarain.com on #uphpu and it's 2011.05.10. Don't believe me? Ask mgeary! |
| 18:35.05 | mgeary | hah |
| 18:35.09 | mgeary | ~whoami |
| 18:35.10 | ibot | you are mgeary, or ~mgeary@50.8.70.19 on #uphpu and it's 2011.05.10. Don't believe me? Ask optikal! |
| 18:35.25 | SunSparc | :) |
| 18:39.55 | josephscott | ug |
| 18:40.14 | josephscott | the latest and greatest next generation music locker service requires flash - http://techcrunch.com/2011/05/10/google-music-beta/ |
| 18:40.22 | mgeary | jeeze. my mom gets a lot of spam. Looks like about 120 spams thus far today. i'm on the same doman/server, and only about 2 spams get through to me on a given day |
| 18:43.39 | SunSparc | ~despam mgeary's mom |
| 18:45.05 | josephscott | $rm spam |
| 18:45.05 | raifbot | opens /dev/null and eliminates spam forever. |
| 18:49.09 | SunSparc | raifbot: if only you had that kind of power |
| 18:56.37 | *** join/#uphpu cedwards (~cedwards@unaffiliated/zelut) |
| 18:58.29 | macnewbold | $chuck-fact |
| 18:58.29 | raifbot | When Neil Armstrong stepped on the moon, the first thing he saw was 'Chuck Norris was here' carved into a moon rock. |
| 19:11.16 | *** join/#uphpu pelaofeliz (~pelaofeli@67.137.236.66) |
| 19:20.39 | mindjuju | ~apb eggyknap |
| 19:20.39 | ibot | ACTION hires Duane Lee to stake out eggyknap |
| 19:20.45 | eggyknap | O HAI |
| 19:21.01 | mindjuju | :) |
| 19:22.24 | influx | WHACHAO |
| 19:33.27 | mindjuju | so what was the result of the big debate on FUD and OSS with josephscott? |
| 19:33.41 | josephscott | $mindtrick mindjuju |
| 19:33.42 | raifbot | (jedi hand wave) mindjuju move along. |
| 19:35.21 | *** join/#uphpu mahelious (~mahelious@64.0.29.254.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 19:35.36 | mindjuju | i guess it dried up to a moot point? |
| 19:35.44 | fungus | pretty much |
| 19:35.52 | mindjuju | i'm curious though, josephscott, when you say this: |
| 19:35.53 | mindjuju | (11:32:05 AM) josephscott: correct, I don't buy that being able to see the code means that I can know who is listening in |
| 19:36.28 | mindjuju | is that from a standpoint of : a minimum of technical expertise is required to be able to take advantage of OSS and know what is going on (programatically speaking) |
| 19:36.34 | mindjuju | or are you saying something else? |
| 19:37.05 | josephscott | my first reaction is that open source doesn't prevent man in the middle attacks |
| 19:37.16 | fungus | I assumed he meant that no security is perfect, and it's impossible to prove complete security. |
| 19:37.23 | mindjuju | oh |
| 19:37.40 | mindjuju | maybe i should go back to fsf to see what was offered |
| 19:37.42 | fungus | Which, in theory is absolutely correct |
| 19:37.57 | mindjuju | right, but i didn't get that the oss offered those features |
| 19:38.16 | mindjuju | i just got that if there were back doors, you could see them by virtue of oss |
| 19:38.26 | fungus | you are correct. |
| 19:38.40 | josephscott | and simply making the source code available under open terms does not remove the possibility of a call being listened to by others |
| 19:38.51 | mindjuju | right |
| 19:38.51 | herlo | josephscott: I think a better argument for that statement is that 'any problem becomes shallow with enough eyeballs'. Thus, open source allows eyeballs to limit problems such as man in the middle attacks. |
| 19:39.23 | mindjuju | but i don't think MITM attacks are the argument of the article |
| 19:39.32 | herlo | e |
| 19:39.36 | josephscott | herlo: in general I agree, there are plenty of good arguments for an open source skype replacement, no need for the text to be over the top |
| 19:39.56 | herlo | oh, we're discussing the buyout of skype, are we? |
| 19:40.15 | mindjuju | i think the argument is that dissidents were under the belief that skype was secure and that they didn't know that skype gave china a backdoor |
| 19:40.15 | josephscott | https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/priority-projects/#skypereplacement |
| 19:40.29 | mindjuju | and that their conversations were being monitored |
| 19:40.34 | josephscott | my specific point was this line is really, really bad "Using proprietary phone software means that we can't be sure who is listening in, because we can't see the code." |
| 19:41.10 | josephscott | it's mixing issues that have little to do with each other |
| 19:41.29 | herlo | I'm surprised that mumble isn't on the FSF's list |
| 19:41.52 | mindjuju | maybe i need to reread the article like in an hour after i've dumped my first impression |
| 19:42.16 | mindjuju | cause all i read in that is what was argued above |
| 19:44.05 | josephscott | classic ! http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004SP0TCC/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=authenticbore-20&linkCode=as2&camp=217145&creative=399349&creativeASIN=B004SP0TCC |
| 19:47.11 | mindjuju | so herlo, on your tangent there, what is the better out of that list? |
| 19:47.18 | mindjuju | have you used /tried out any of those? |
| 19:47.25 | mindjuju | i looke3d at ekiga, looked cool |
| 19:48.14 | fungus | josephscott, I agree the line is very sensationalist. but it is true. |
| 19:48.35 | mindjuju | i like this line: Many users are seduced into using |
| 19:48.40 | mindjuju | sounds Star Wars-y |
| 19:48.52 | mindjuju | vader was seduced to the dark side |
| 19:48.52 | josephscott | fungus: being able to look at the source will allow you to determine that no one is listening in on your calls? |
| 19:49.18 | josephscott | hmmm, need a $dark-side command for raifbot now :) |
| 19:49.30 | fungus | that isn't what the statement says |
| 19:49.36 | herlo | ekiga, twinkle, mingle |
| 19:49.39 | herlo | mindjuju: ^^ |
| 19:49.47 | fungus | It says that you cannot prove no one is listening, because you cannot see the source. |
| 19:50.23 | fungus | If you can see the source you can identify problems in security, backdoors, etc. |
| 19:50.29 | fungus | but that is a side point. |
| 19:50.40 | macnewbold | are we talking about an open source replacement that interoperates with skype? or its own thing, or one that uses standard voip stuff? |
| 19:51.07 | fungus | The sentence specifically says you cannot be sure of listeners-in |
| 19:51.18 | josephscott | and after it is open source, you still can't |
| 19:52.00 | beandog | are you guys still arguing? |
| 19:52.02 | josephscott | what they should have said is there is no way to review the source code for backdoors, leaks, weakness, etc. |
| 19:52.10 | beandog | ~pedantic josephscott |
| 19:52.12 | beandog | :) |
| 19:52.32 | josephscott | listening in on calls involves many factors, access to source code is insufficient to address them |
| 19:52.53 | josephscott | beandog: hey, we are talking about a group that has trouble with the word "Free" ;-) |
| 19:53.06 | beandog | true enough |
| 19:53.28 | fungus | josephscott, after you have the source you *can* identify where people can potentially listen in |
| 19:53.45 | mindjuju | herlo, thx, i'm going to setup ekiga for the meet on the 2t8th |
| 19:54.01 | fungus | Again the statement doesn't say that open source changes the nature of the program. The statement *only* states what you can know, or not know. |
| 19:54.05 | herlo | mindjuju: I'm a bigger fan of twinkle, but ekiga has its own network |
| 19:54.07 | josephscott | ok, I'm not bringing up man in the middle again, since this channel is logged :-) |
| 19:54.18 | herlo | lol |
| 19:54.30 | mindjuju | so herlo, which do you think is more common? twinkle? |
| 19:54.43 | mindjuju | if i say meeet at OSTC or twinkle |
| 19:55.13 | fungus | josephscott, MITM attacks are preventable. |
| 19:55.23 | DexterTheDragon | twinkle is just a sip client |
| 19:55.41 | josephscott | by having access to the source code? |
| 19:55.53 | mindjuju | oh, so we'd have to be running an asterisk server |
| 19:56.36 | fungus | by having access to the source code you can *know* if it's possible for an MITM attack |
| 19:57.16 | fungus | So it all comes down to the statement remaining it's accuracy. though it is sensationalistic |
| 19:57.20 | josephscott | I think that is a major stretch |
| 19:57.38 | fungus | no, it's not. Think how SSH works |
| 19:57.51 | fungus | it prevents MITM attacks, when used correctly |
| 19:57.57 | josephscott | yes, and it is still possible to have a MITM attack with ssh |
| 19:58.06 | fungus | not when used correctly |
| 19:58.19 | josephscott | which again, has nothing to do with having access to the source code |
| 19:58.36 | fungus | having access to source code makes this knowable. |
| 19:58.46 | herlo | mindjuju: the problem you have with twinkle is that there is no service associated with it... |
| 19:58.48 | josephscott | bringing up other things besides access to the source to fix the issue means that having access to the source code is insufficient to solve the issue |
| 19:59.04 | macnewbold | at least with source code you have a much better shot at being able to identify/address/quantify the weaknesses for yourself |
| 19:59.08 | fungus | The statement has nothing to do with solving it. |
| 19:59.15 | fungus | The statement only explains know-ability |
| 19:59.43 | josephscott | "Using proprietary phone software means that we can't be sure who is listening in, because we can't see the code." |
| 20:00.07 | fungus | right. "we can't be sure" refers to know-ability |
| 20:00.29 | josephscott | even if you can see the code you can't be sure |
| 20:00.49 | fungus | The first requirement for knowing for sure, is that you can see the source code |
| 20:01.02 | josephscott | again, my point was, there are plenty of good reasons for an open source skype alternative, but that line is horrible and brings up an unrelated issue |
| 20:01.02 | fungus | There are other requirements but source code is first. |
| 20:01.30 | fungus | It does bring up un-related issues as well. But it is still accurate. |
| 20:01.35 | fungus | It isn't a lie. |
| 20:01.45 | fungus | It's not the best worded statement. |
| 20:01.55 | josephscott | it is a horribly worded statement |
| 20:02.17 | josephscott | because it gives the impression that if you simply had an open source alternative you could be sure no one is listening in on your call |
| 20:02.22 | fungus | right, but it is still true. That is my only assertion |
| 20:02.54 | fungus | An open-source alternative could be developed to ensure no-one is listening in. |
| 20:03.16 | fungus | "could" being the key word, of course. |
| 20:03.40 | mindjuju | so quick interjection, remember when i brought up (like 2 months ago) that it was alleged that a NSA operative wrote some backdoors into freebsd. doesn't the review of the code in search of the backdoors prove that a source code review of oss is always possible to detect issues |
| 20:03.55 | mindjuju | and that in the area of skype where the source code was unplubished, no such review is possible |
| 20:04.06 | fungus | mindjuju, exactly |
| 20:04.39 | fungus | And the story was about the FBI and OpenBSD, but you got the point anyway |
| 20:04.47 | mindjuju | :) |
| 20:04.53 | mindjuju | my brain is fuzzy sometimes |
| 20:04.54 | josephscott | mindjuju: I think it was openbsd |
| 20:05.07 | mindjuju | must be the chipotle chicken crisps from chilis |
| 20:05.17 | influx | :< |
| 20:07.43 | mindjuju | well, any way, it wasn't my intention to restart the fire, i was just curious to understand josephscott point, he isn't usually so animated |
| 20:08.09 | josephscott | ~animate me |
| 20:08.09 | mindjuju | $weather NSA |
| 20:08.10 | raifbot | mindjuju - sorry, I couldn't get weather data for NSA |
| 20:08.12 | fungus | He's right to be. |
| 20:08.35 | fungus | That statement scares people (intentionally). |
| 20:09.07 | fungus | it creates feelings in people that make them believe all proprietary software is spying on them. |
| 20:09.28 | fungus | and that open source will cure the world. |
| 20:09.49 | mindjuju | only whoppers will cure the world |
| 20:10.17 | mindjuju | and if you need more cure than a whopper, you could always go double whopper |
| 20:10.24 | josephscott | mindjuju: not true, a good meal at Chipotle will also help cure the world |
| 20:10.42 | fungus | However, it contains no factual inaccuracies. |
| 20:10.59 | josephscott | the best FUD never does ;-) |
| 20:11.04 | fungus | lol, whoppers don't cure. they make you fat. |
| 20:11.11 | fungus | but oh so tasty |
| 20:11.18 | fungus | (the fake ones anyway) |
| 20:11.21 | mindjuju | i'm going to have to give chipotle a second chance, i ate there once at a geek lunch, it was good, but it wasn't like zip Wow! Kapowza! |
| 20:12.30 | jsmith | mindjuju: I refuse to give them a second chance. |
| 20:12.46 | mindjuju | the angels didn't sing for you either, huh? |
| 20:13.41 | mindjuju | to hear thebigdog talk about it, it was practically Emeril at a taco stand |
| 20:13.48 | beandog | lol |
| 20:13.54 | josephscott | BAM! |
| 20:14.02 | mindjuju | :) |
| 20:14.22 | *** join/#uphpu carmony (~justin@ip70-181-211-152.sd.sd.cox.net) |
| 20:14.29 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v carmony] by ChanServ |
| 20:16.22 | *** join/#uphpu Monnok (~monnok@205.204.33.82) |
| 20:19.11 | josephscott | $chuck-fact |
| 20:19.11 | raifbot | The best part of waking up is not Folgers in your cup, but knowing that Chuck Norris didn't kill you in your sleep. |
| 20:19.46 | stderr- | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np5r-gYso5w |
| 20:20.43 | *** join/#uphpu jkr801_ (~jkr801@dsl093-228-008.slc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 20:21.13 | *** join/#uphpu jkr801_ (~jkr801@dsl093-228-008.slc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 20:21.20 | beandog | stderr-: lol |
| 20:21.34 | beandog | the ceiling one is the best |
| 20:26.51 | beandog | good grief Im such a dork |
| 20:26.58 | beandog | I just walked around the office looking for the phone |
| 20:27.05 | beandog | then I remembered I can use my cell |
| 20:38.24 | *** join/#uphpu ninnypants (~ninnypant@69.169.155.132.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net) |
| 21:05.57 | SunSparc | beandog: only if you do not use AT&T |
| 21:06.27 | beandog | whut |
| 21:06.42 | SunSparc | We have horrendous coverage in our office. |
| 21:06.50 | beandog | oh yah? |
| 21:06.53 | beandog | My bars are dancing. |
| 21:07.10 | beandog | I cant tell if its 3g or not |
| 21:07.13 | SunSparc | It is as if we live in a fallout shelter. |
| 21:07.47 | SunSparc | Step outside, 5 bars. Inside... no bars. |
| 21:07.50 | SunSparc | Lame |
| 21:08.07 | beandog | buh :@ |
| 21:08.12 | SunSparc | Verizon? 5 bars everywhere. |
| 21:08.17 | beandog | SunSparc lives in the Fortress of Solitude |
| 21:08.34 | SunSparc | It is true |
| 21:08.35 | mindjuju | sounds like your building is like a natural faraday cage |
| 21:08.58 | SunSparc | Apparently. But only for AT&T signals. |
| 21:10.06 | mindjuju | man, i'm sleepy |
| 21:11.27 | *** join/#uphpu mastergunns (~mastergun@216.49.181.128) |
| 21:12.02 | josephscott | mindjuju: push ups, the natural pick me up :-) |
| 21:13.05 | mastergunns | josephscott: wouldn't that be a natural push you down :) |
| 21:13.46 | josephscott | it's a natural push up ;-) |
| 21:15.11 | mastergunns | ahhh, nice |
| 21:54.11 | SunSparc | carmony: Sky.net, har har ;) |
| 21:56.49 | carmony | LO |
| 21:56.51 | carmony | :P |
| 21:58.28 | *** join/#uphpu techgurufloyd (~Adium@216.49.181.128) |
| 22:04.08 | *** join/#uphpu techgurufloyd (~Adium@216.49.181.128) |
| 22:21.20 | *** join/#uphpu redroy (~Adium@c-174-52-210-81.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 22:27.47 | carmony | bah, I cannot type today |
| 22:28.03 | carmony | I've been trying to write several bush scripts it seems |
| 22:28.05 | mindjuju | could you type yesterday? |
| 22:28.10 | carmony | ummmmm, no |
| 22:28.14 | carmony | so I can't type in general |
| 22:28.16 | mindjuju | bush scripts? |
| 22:28.29 | mindjuju | like teleprompter scripts for Pres Bush? |
| 22:29.31 | mindjuju | carmony, here is the result of a "bush" script from google - http://groups.csail.mit.edu/uid/chickenfoot/scripts/index.php?title=Replace_%22Bush%22_with_%22Monkeyboy%22 |
| 22:29.47 | carmony | lol |
| 22:31.33 | *** join/#uphpu jkr801 (~jkr801@c-67-186-232-131.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 22:47.29 | carmony | bah |
| 22:47.32 | carmony | sudo hates me |
| 22:47.42 | mindjuju | ~hate carmony |
| 22:47.42 | ibot | Hey mindjuju, ,,|, |
| 22:47.48 | mindjuju | ah dag! |
| 22:47.52 | jsmith | mindjuju: Zinger! |
| 22:48.08 | mindjuju | ~hate ibot |
| 22:48.09 | ibot | Hey mindjuju, ,,|, |
| 22:48.16 | mindjuju | ~hate jsmith |
| 22:48.16 | ibot | Hey mindjuju, ,,|, |
| 22:48.26 | jsmith | mindjuju: Got you again! |
| 22:48.31 | mindjuju | ~flip jsmith |
| 22:48.32 | ibot | ACTION gives jsmith the .|.. ..|. |
| 22:48.43 | mindjuju | double whammy par vu |
| 22:49.03 | ninnypants | heh |
| 22:49.12 | josephscott | ~say $lart mindjuju |
| 22:49.12 | ibot | $lart mindjuju |
| 22:49.13 | raifbot | explains, ever so gently, that if mindjuju doesn't give the channel more information, they can't help. |
| 22:49.14 | jsmith | I'm a mirror, and you are glue... whatever you type bounces off me and sticks on you... |
| 22:49.31 | mindjuju | you're a mirror? |
| 22:49.35 | *** join/#uphpu cedwards (~cedwards@unaffiliated/zelut) |
| 22:49.40 | mindjuju | having problems with reality, are we? |
| 22:49.54 | mindjuju | how long have you had these feelings about being a mirror? |
| 22:51.43 | josephscott | $8ball is jsmith a mirror? |
| 22:51.43 | raifbot | josephscott - My sources say no. |
| 22:52.09 | skinner | What is it like being a mirror? |
| 22:52.13 | skinner | You'll hear it first...like the sound of a giant waterfall, they say... |
| 22:52.24 | mindjuju | :) |
| 22:54.36 | mgeary | ~skinner raifbot |
| 22:54.36 | ibot | ACTION buries raifbot in a giant waterfall... WHOOOOSH! |
| 22:54.44 | mgeary | can't say he wasn't warned |
| 22:54.58 | mindjuju | oh that's awesome! |
| 22:54.59 | skinner | lol |
| 22:55.01 | mindjuju | ~mgeary++ |
| 22:56.15 | mindjuju | so fungus, 2 questions |
| 22:56.17 | carmony | ok, why wouldn't this work? |
| 22:56.29 | mindjuju | @fungus, do you play farmville? |
| 22:56.33 | fungus | noe |
| 22:56.34 | fungus | no |
| 22:56.35 | fungus | no |
| 22:56.36 | fungus | no |
| 22:56.45 | carmony | echo mypass | sudo -u username -S bash /path/to/script/blah.sh |
| 22:56.57 | mindjuju | @fungus, did you know lady gaga is debut songon farmville? http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Lady-Gaga-to-debut-songs-on-apf-2143133968.html?x=0 |
| 22:57.29 | mindjuju | somebody pull out the smelling salts, i'm sure it is that fungus has passed out |
| 22:58.23 | fungus | why? oh why? |
| 22:58.27 | mindjuju | poor fungus |
| 22:58.39 | mindjuju | i'm trying not to revel in your pain |
| 22:58.41 | mindjuju | it's hard |
| 22:59.55 | *** join/#uphpu cedwards (~cedwards@unaffiliated/zelut) |
| 23:00.08 | mindjuju | and it's not even that you canjust log in and hear the song |
| 23:00.19 | mindjuju | apparently you have to grow a crop or something to get to hear it |
| 23:00.53 | fungus | lame. I'd rather wait a few days and just buy the album |
| 23:01.05 | mindjuju | yeah, but you'll be missing this! |
| 23:01.06 | mindjuju | which will feature magical unicorns, sheep on motorcycles and other Gaga-inspired items on "GagaVille." |
| 23:01.06 | skinner | Oh! There's a farmville album?! |
| 23:01.23 | fungus | carmony, configure your sudoers to not require password for that specific script/user. |
| 23:01.39 | skinner | j/k |
| 23:04.09 | fungus | carmony "carmony ALL = (username) NOPASSWD: /path/to/script/blah.sh |
| 23:04.44 | fungus | carmony@localmachine$ sudo -u username /path/to/script/blah.sh |
| 23:05.08 | herlo | is it friday yet? |
| 23:06.20 | josephscott | $lart javascript that isn't working |
| 23:06.20 | raifbot | pours gasoline all over javascript that isn't working, ignites the fire, and then enjoys some toasty marshmallows with the glorious blaze. |
| 23:06.49 | mindjuju | slow down you young whippersnapper! you'll be married soon enough! |
| 23:06.52 | mindjuju | pesky kids! |
| 23:07.25 | herlo | mindjuju: oh, you caught my reasoning, did you? :P |
| 23:07.30 | mindjuju | course, i'm not one to talk, cause we upped the wedding day twice |
| 23:07.40 | herlo | mindjuju: and 'who' are 'you' calling whippersnapper! |
| 23:07.53 | mindjuju | yeah, i think you're like 4 mths older than i |
| 23:08.07 | mahelious | herlo: can't wait for the big day? you'll spend the rest of your life looking back fondly on the last two weeks. :) |
| 23:08.09 | herlo | Nov1972 |
| 23:08.14 | *** join/#uphpu macnewbold (~Adium@173-10-29-129-BusName-utah.ut.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 23:08.14 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o macnewbold] by ChanServ |
| 23:08.20 | herlo | mahelious: oh, I've been marred before |
| 23:08.29 | mahelious | lol |
| 23:08.50 | herlo | mahelious: there have been some fun times this past couple weeks, that's true |
| 23:09.03 | mindjuju | yeah, i'm june 73 |
| 23:09.16 | herlo | youngn |
| 23:09.22 | mindjuju | dag! |
| 23:10.03 | herlo | mindjuju: we were having fun last night with the wedding music |
| 23:10.18 | herlo | and I think you'll enjoy the ceremony :) |
| 23:10.26 | mindjuju | what tunes did you pick? |
| 23:10.31 | herlo | Jennifer's been having a lot of fun putting it together |
| 23:10.38 | herlo | mindjuju: check out my facebook wall and you |
| 23:10.43 | herlo | will get a glimpse |
| 23:14.47 | carmony | # This file MUST be edited with the 'visudo' command as root. |
| 23:15.20 | mindjuju | heh |
| 23:15.26 | mindjuju | you're not older than us, are you? |
| 23:15.53 | mgeary | psh. years older |
| 23:15.58 | herlo | carmony: so run visudo |
| 23:16.02 | herlo | as root |
| 23:16.15 | herlo | mgeary: seriously? |
| 23:16.54 | herlo | mgeary: had I known! |
| 23:16.57 | mindjuju | yeah! |
| 23:17.17 | mgeary | well, fortunately, i'm in a good mood and will accept your late tribute |
| 23:17.25 | SunSparc | lol |
| 23:17.36 | mgeary | mindjuju: and a basin of epsom salts, if you would |
| 23:17.50 | herlo | mgeary: that's what is on your amazon wish list, epsom salts? |
| 23:18.14 | herlo | mgeary: your first name isn't David, is it? |
| 23:18.17 | mgeary | heh. i'm too jaded to put things on my wishlist |
| 23:18.24 | herlo | haha, figures |
| 23:18.31 | herlo | lol @ josephscott |
| 23:19.44 | mindjuju | $8ball does mgeary wear dentures ? |
| 23:19.45 | raifbot | mindjuju - As I see it, yes. |
| 23:20.58 | *** join/#uphpu jnbek (~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek) |
| 23:23.00 | mindjuju | what are you kidding? i tease my wife about being 3 months older than me ALL THE TIME |
| 23:23.07 | SunSparc | :) |
| 23:23.20 | SunSparc | You big meanie, mindjuju |
| 23:23.31 | SunSparc | On a more technical note... |
| 23:23.42 | SunSparc | sqlite, how much can it scale? |
| 23:24.21 | SunSparc | If I am planning a site that could potentially have thousands or even millions of users, I am thinking that sqlite should not even be a consideration. |
| 23:25.01 | mindjuju | hmm, i don't do any sqlite |
| 23:25.38 | SunSparc | Nor do I, yet. Which is why I am asking. |
| 23:26.08 | mindjuju | hmm, i don't have a mental note on anybody doing sqlite, |
| 23:26.16 | SunSparc | I could just stick with MySQL, but it can be tedious with super large databases. |
| 23:26.22 | mindjuju | i know DtD was doing couchdb for a while, but i don't remember him syaing sqlite |
| 23:26.48 | SunSparc | Maybe I need to look into mongo or couch or bigtable... |
| 23:27.17 | mgeary | why? |
| 23:27.23 | herlo | SunSparc: yeah, probably not use sqlite |
| 23:27.25 | mgeary | MySQL handles millions of rows just fine |
| 23:27.57 | mgeary | the deal, as i understand it, with mongo and couch is that you leave the comfy SQL paradigm and get into something quite a bit different |
| 23:28.01 | herlo | mgeary: but the tedium of mysql can be mitigated with things that couch db brings |
| 23:28.04 | herlo | to the table |
| 23:28.07 | mgeary | that could well be |
| 23:28.15 | mgeary | and i would love to hear more about that |
| 23:28.19 | herlo | it really depends on what you want |
| 23:28.39 | herlo | I'd suggest reading on the recommended paragigms for couchdb/mongodb/cassandra/etc |
| 23:28.47 | herlo | s/gigms/digms/ |
| 23:30.16 | carmony | ok, I think I'm making this harder than I need to |
| 23:30.52 | carmony | what I want is when apache executes my post-commit hook for SVN, I need it to execute a script on another server. |
| 23:31.16 | carmony | so I created a special user for deployments, and I'm trying to get www-data to su to them |
| 23:31.55 | carmony | and then execute a command on the remote server, because my deploy user has their ssh key setup on the remote server |
| 23:33.03 | herlo | sounds appropriate |
| 23:33.47 | herlo | carmony: the only thing I can think of is why do you want to switch user to the deploy user |
| 23:34.03 | herlo | why not just login directly as deploy and that user is a member of the www-data group/ |
| 23:34.06 | herlo | ? |
| 23:34.32 | carmony | ummm... good point |
| 23:34.46 | herlo | in the deploy directory, make sure to have its permissions be chmod u+rwx,g+rwxs,o= for every directory :) |
| 23:35.07 | carmony | will the ssh keys throw a fit? |
| 23:35.13 | carmony | having a different permission? |
| 23:35.37 | herlo | carmony: I'm not talking about the directory of the ssh key |
| 23:35.46 | herlo | I'm talking about the directory to where you deploy |
| 23:36.00 | herlo | the ownership of that directory should be root.www-data |
| 23:36.11 | herlo | and all subsequent directories and files, too |
| 23:36.16 | carmony | well I have my svn server, and then my dev server |
| 23:36.30 | SunSparc | herlo: thanks for the info |
| 23:37.12 | herlo | SunSparc: yeah, I'm a wealth of knowledge today :) |
| 23:37.21 | carmony | so svn server gets a commit, and tells the dev server to update. The updating part is working. I'm just struggling trying to correctly tell the dev server to update |
| 23:37.32 | SunSparc | ~herlo++ |
| 23:37.36 | herlo | carmony: so just a simple 'svn up'? |
| 23:37.39 | herlo | SunSparc: thanks! |
| 23:37.44 | SunSparc | :) |
| 23:39.00 | carmony | well, I'm probably using the wrong terminology. The issue is the post-commit hook is executed by the www-data user. |
| 23:39.16 | herlo | why is there a www-data user? |
| 23:39.20 | herlo | that's a group |
| 23:39.23 | SunSparc | Night all |
| 23:39.31 | carmony | oh, I thought it was a user as well |
| 23:39.57 | herlo | carmony: it could be, but I'd not use it as it's the user that runs apache and that could cause you some pain with security |
| 23:40.14 | carmony | yeah |
| 23:40.18 | carmony | that is the problem |
| 23:40.23 | carmony | my svn is hosted by apache |
| 23:40.36 | carmony | so when it executes the post-commit, it is done by apache |
| 23:40.43 | herlo | k, wait |
| 23:40.54 | herlo | the svn server is on the same machine as the dev site? |
| 23:40.58 | carmony | no |
| 23:41.06 | carmony | separate machines |
| 23:41.11 | herlo | okay, then that's not true |
| 23:41.44 | herlo | the svn server machine might have an apache user, but your hook can login as anyone |
| 23:42.03 | herlo | I'm assuming you are sshing into the other box, no? |
| 23:42.07 | carmony | yes |
| 23:42.13 | carmony | I'm sshing into the other box |
| 23:42.16 | herlo | as what user? |
| 23:42.19 | herlo | www-data? |
| 23:42.26 | carmony | I have a "deploy" user on the dev box |
| 23:42.29 | herlo | okay |
| 23:42.37 | herlo | and what groups is the 'deploy' user a member? |
| 23:42.44 | carmony | no group yes |
| 23:42.49 | carmony | yet |
| 23:42.53 | herlo | k, so add the deploy user to the www-data group |
| 23:43.01 | herlo | groupadd -aG www-data deploy |
| 23:43.08 | herlo | :) |
| 23:43.50 | herlo | actually, I don't know if that really matters, since you said the svn up part works |
| 23:43.57 | carmony | yeah |
| 23:43.59 | carmony | the svn up part works |
| 23:44.14 | carmony | its having the svn server correctly execute an ssh command on the dev box |
| 23:44.23 | herlo | carmony: but your hook should be doing ssh deploy@devserver "cd /path/to/docroot; svn up" |
| 23:44.33 | herlo | or something very similar |
| 23:44.39 | carmony | yes, but it needs ssh keys to do that |
| 23:44.44 | herlo | carmony: right |
| 23:44.47 | herlo | so on the server |
| 23:44.47 | carmony | so should I just generate a set for apache |
| 23:44.52 | carmony | er, www-data on the svn box |
| 23:45.08 | herlo | whatever users is running the hook is the user that should have the key |
| 23:45.13 | herlo | so probably svn-user or soemthing |
| 23:45.15 | carmony | and explicitly declare in the ssh command where the identity is |
| 23:45.19 | herlo | yep |
| 23:45.21 | carmony | ok |
| 23:45.40 | herlo | ssh -i /home/svn-user/.ssh/id_dsa deploy@devserver "cd /path/to/docroot; svn up" |
| 23:45.45 | herlo | something like that |
| 23:46.02 | herlo | hope that helps |
| 23:48.39 | herlo | time for din-din I think |