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| 01:56.17 | *** topic/#UPHPU is Utah PHP Users Group | uphpu.org |
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| 04:56.51 | ninnypants | $chuck-fact |
| 04:56.51 | raifbot | Contrary to popular belief, America is not a democracy, it is a Chucktatorship. |
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| 15:01.01 | josephscott | $rlart |
| 15:01.01 | raifbot | eats itimber's liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti. |
| 15:01.26 | itimber | ouch |
| 15:01.31 | itimber | ~rlart |
| 15:01.31 | ibot | stabs optikal |
| 15:01.34 | itimber | $rlart |
| 15:01.34 | raifbot | urinates on Monnok. |
| 15:03.42 | herlo | w00t! |
| 15:15.40 | josephscott | $chuck-fact |
| 15:15.40 | raifbot | Some magicans can walk on water, Chuck Norris can swim through land. |
| 15:21.32 | *** join/#uphpu Utah_Dave (~boucha@72-166-51-162.dia.static.qwest.net) |
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| 15:27.52 | josephscott | $8ball will it snow again this month? |
| 15:27.52 | raifbot | josephscott - Ask again later. |
| 15:28.42 | mgeary | psh. seems to me like we get snow in june about 1/4 of the time. I'd say snow in late April is more like 75% |
| 15:29.12 | mgeary | granted, it's not usually very impressive snow |
| 15:33.22 | josephscott | I'm only concerned about it being snow at my house, don't care much if the ski resorts get snow in june :-) |
| 15:34.00 | mgeary | i recall i won a bet with someone on #utahpython a few years ago about whether it would snow it june that year. it did. |
| 15:34.07 | mgeary | it was like june 2nd, but even so |
| 15:34.18 | mgeary | this was at my house, which is in the foothills |
| 15:38.21 | josephscott | $8ball will it snow at my house in June? |
| 15:38.22 | raifbot | josephscott - Outlook good. |
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| 16:00.40 | skinner1 | $8ball will my the bank accept our offer on the house we want? |
| 16:00.40 | raifbot | skinner1 - Yes - definitely. |
| 16:00.45 | skinner1 | Woot! |
| 16:03.12 | skinner1 | $8ball will I hear back from them on this within the next few hours? |
| 16:03.12 | raifbot | skinner1 - My sources say no. |
| 16:03.16 | skinner1 | .... |
| 16:03.25 | skinner1 | $8ball Are you sure? |
| 16:03.25 | raifbot | skinner1 - Ask again later. |
| 16:03.28 | skinner1 | lol |
| 16:04.21 | skinner1 | $8ball What about now? Will I hear from them today? |
| 16:04.21 | raifbot | skinner1 - Outlook not so good. |
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| 16:06.46 | skinner1 | $8ball Oh I get it. I won't hear from them. I would hear from my agent. Will I hear from my real estate agent on their acceptance of the offer today? |
| 16:06.46 | raifbot | skinner1 - My sources say no. |
| 16:06.58 | skinner1 | rude |
| 16:32.25 | TuxToaster | $rlart |
| 16:32.25 | raifbot | blasts jsmith-away with a huge firehose then strangles jsmith-away with it. |
| 16:32.41 | TuxToaster | sure, pick on someone who just left |
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| 16:36.59 | herlo | carmony: ping |
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| 16:38.29 | carmony | herlo: pong |
| 16:43.06 | skinner1 | GOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAL! |
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| 16:47.11 | mindjuju | so utah_dave , when did they do the base jump? |
| 16:54.27 | Utah_Dave | mindjuju: last year some time |
| 16:54.34 | Utah_Dave | It was in the news for quite a while |
| 16:54.37 | mindjuju | wow |
| 16:54.58 | mindjuju | i'm guessing they got caught? |
| 16:55.05 | mindjuju | or is video anonymously posted? |
| 16:55.47 | josephscott | they were in court so I'm assuming someone figured out who they were |
| 16:56.06 | mindjuju | ah |
| 16:56.13 | mindjuju | sadly, this is the first i'm hearing of it |
| 16:56.25 | mindjuju | though last semester, i was going crazy with full time school and work |
| 16:56.53 | Utah_Dave | Yeah, they caught them. It took a while though |
| 16:58.38 | herlo | carmony: sorry, ran out for a sec, you still around? PM? |
| 16:59.39 | mindjuju | so josephscott, i've got a multicore server but when i look at munin, it looks like the ram is being used heavily, the cores aren't |
| 16:59.58 | mindjuju | what keywords should i look up to start learning how to take advanatage of the mulitple cpus? |
| 17:01.39 | josephscott | depends on your workload |
| 17:01.52 | josephscott | not everything is going to be CPU bound |
| 17:01.56 | mindjuju | it's just for LAMP |
| 17:01.59 | mindjuju | doesn't do anything else |
| 17:02.14 | josephscott | and for many web sites ram and i/o often hit the wall before cpu |
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| 17:33.04 | ninnypants | $chuck-fact |
| 17:33.04 | raifbot | In "ring around the rosie", Chuck Norris does not fall down. |
| 17:33.13 | ninnypants | $chuck-fact |
| 17:33.13 | raifbot | Chuck Norris doesn't have to do anything for a Klondike bar |
| 17:34.28 | redroy | lol |
| 17:34.36 | redroy | seriously, why are chuck facts so awesome |
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| 17:35.05 | shawn__ | hello |
| 17:35.14 | ninnypants | not sure I think it's the rediculousness factor |
| 17:35.19 | ninnypants | shawn__: hi |
| 17:37.11 | shawn__ | I am a little lost with a php problem. Would this be a place to ask for some guidance? |
| 17:37.24 | jsmith-away | shawn__: Sure... ask away! |
| 17:37.49 | shawn__ | Alright. I have a long form that I want to let the user return to in case they lose connection or leave. |
| 17:38.20 | shawn__ | I am thinking that I will have to save the session somehow, probably serialized. |
| 17:39.14 | shawn__ | I am planning on having them give their email address when they get to the page and I will give them a PIN so they can use that to resume. |
| 17:39.49 | ninnypants | shawn__: is the form across multiple pages? |
| 17:40.30 | shawn__ | ninnypants: No, I was thinking I could save the fields with javascript as they loose focus. |
| 17:41.11 | ninnypants | shawn__: ok makes sense |
| 17:41.28 | ninnypants | how sensitive is the information? |
| 17:41.30 | DexterTheDragon | or you could do some really awesome html5 offline storage stuff!!1!one!! |
| 17:41.37 | shawn__ | lol |
| 17:42.19 | shawn__ | well it is pretty unimportant. No personal details, nothing of value to anyone else. The only valuable thing is the email address. |
| 17:43.19 | shawn__ | The form is for evaluation of a product, like a review, the user rates each product under each category. |
| 17:44.15 | redroy | seems like the "pin" idea is the right direction. Use ajax to save their data as they update⦠store their pin or unique id as a cookie. I don't think session would be what you're after if you want it to come back after leaving |
| 17:44.48 | shawn__ | But won't the cookie expire? |
| 17:45.03 | DexterTheDragon | really if your just saving info serialize it into a cookie |
| 17:45.05 | shawn__ | What if they have cookies turned off? |
| 17:45.08 | DexterTheDragon | or html5 storage |
| 17:45.14 | DexterTheDragon | keep it all local |
| 17:45.17 | DexterTheDragon | its 2011 |
| 17:45.48 | DexterTheDragon | if they have cookies turned off their web experience sucks more than losing form data |
| 17:46.15 | redroy | yeah, or do that :) |
| 17:46.16 | skinner1 | http://diveintohtml5.org/storage.html |
| 17:46.18 | shawn__ | redroy: so you think I should just store it under their PIN and give them a cookie so they don't have to re-enter their email + pin every time? |
| 17:46.46 | DexterTheDragon | shawn__: just store the data in a cookie. screw server side and pins and stuff |
| 17:46.59 | redroy | well, store the pin or all the data as DTD suggested⦠that way they won't have to re-enter anything |
| 17:48.05 | redroy | the only reason I'd store a an id (or pin) in a cookie is if I wanted access to their partial data |
| 17:48.25 | redroy | but I wouldn't require them to enter it again |
| 17:48.58 | shawn__ | I meant that they wouldn't need to re-enter their PIN if they had the cookie. |
| 17:50.16 | redroy | ah, right, sorry miss-read that |
| 17:50.43 | shawn__ | Well I was kind of hoping I could keep the partial data so I could see where they were stopping what what they had said so far. |
| 17:51.23 | shawn__ | with local storage that sounds like it would not be an option. |
| 17:52.11 | skinner1 | you can do local storage while still saving the data when focus is lost |
| 17:53.10 | skinner1 | store their data on the server, their PIN on local storage. |
| 17:53.11 | shawn__ | Hmm, that might be the best of both worlds. Then I wouldn't have to keep lengthy records and they wouldn't need to write down a pin. |
| 17:53.25 | skinner1 | When they revisit, their stored PIN retrieves their info |
| 17:53.38 | shawn__ | Right. I like that idea. |
| 17:53.52 | shawn__ | Would that use sessions? |
| 17:54.21 | shawn__ | I have only used sessions a handful of times and I am not very confident with them yet. |
| 17:54.34 | skinner1 | well....you could do it this way: |
| 17:55.15 | redroy | Yeah, that's actually what I meant⦠store an "id" that links to their stored data on your server. But if you're storing on their local as well the id wouldn't be needed. |
| 17:55.29 | skinner1 | true |
| 17:57.15 | skinner1 | if all you are trying to accomplish is to track where they left off, while allowing them the luxury of having the "last visit" data prepopulated upon returning, there's no loss in storage resources storing it in both places. |
| 17:57.41 | skinner1 | Even then if you store the data on the client side, it would load a tiny bit faster saving you a db query |
| 17:58.01 | shawn__ | So how do I generate a unique PIN? I was thinking just rand() but could that create collisions? |
| 17:58.14 | skinner1 | and as redroy said, saving in both places wouldn't really require an PIN |
| 17:58.24 | shawn__ | Sorry, I mean UID |
| 17:58.30 | shawn__ | I guess I could use the email address |
| 17:58.45 | skinner1 | that would probably be the most logical choise |
| 17:58.47 | skinner1 | *coice |
| 17:58.49 | skinner1 | haha |
| 17:58.51 | skinner1 | *choice |
| 17:58.54 | skinner1 | lol |
| 17:59.02 | shawn__ | That would probably be best, more secure than just incrementing and more reliable then rand() |
| 18:02.10 | shawn__ | So is there some way that I can write all the session variables to a database when the session closes? I think that writing a new value every time someone changes a field in the form could chew through resources. |
| 18:03.10 | shawn__ | I remember reading about super functions or something like that that are function that run when triggered by events. |
| 18:03.24 | shawn__ | I just don't know enough to google with accuracy. |
| 18:05.40 | shawn__ | Alright, I found destructors, I think that is what I was looking for. |
| 18:07.47 | redroy | maybe check out session_set_save_handler() |
| 18:08.20 | redroy | http://www.php.net/manual/en/function.session-set-save-handler.php |
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| 18:22.57 | mindjuju | so carmony, hw do you have apache handling PHP requests? mod_php? fastcgi ? |
| 18:24.58 | carmony | mod_php |
| 18:25.26 | *** join/#uphpu skinner (~dskinner@64.0.29.254.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 18:26.00 | mindjuju | so is mod_php the same as the Apache 2.0 Handler? |
| 18:26.03 | mindjuju | i think it is |
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| 18:33.48 | DexterTheDragon | an apache handler is just whatever handles a file |
| 18:33.56 | DexterTheDragon | and is usually setup by files type |
| 18:34.06 | DexterTheDragon | so mod_php is an apache handler |
| 18:34.19 | DexterTheDragon | as is mod_perl, mod_wsgi, mod_rails, etc |
| 18:35.17 | Utah_Dave | what about mod_mindjuju? |
| 18:37.00 | mindjuju | nah, if i used mod_mj, my server would be running at prime efficiency and good looks make the other websites jealous |
| 18:38.02 | mindjuju | so utah_Dave, when are we going to meet in TF2 for mortal kombat? |
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| 18:40.11 | Utah_Dave | :) |
| 18:40.34 | Utah_Dave | Dude, we need to meet in TF2 so you can teach me how not to die every 8 seconds!! |
| 18:40.57 | mindjuju | let's play tonight, like at 8 ish |
| 18:40.58 | mindjuju | can do? |
| 18:42.56 | Utah_Dave | I've got every night this week booked. But I'll have every night open next week. (my wife is going to be out of town) |
| 18:43.21 | mindjuju | k |
| 18:43.33 | mindjuju | that'll give me time to find a good server where people aren't psycho |
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| 18:43.46 | Utah_Dave | sounds awesome. |
| 18:46.20 | josephscott | $lart psyco server people |
| 18:46.20 | raifbot | slams psyco server people against a large cement Tux. |
| 18:46.33 | carmony | mindjuju: I'll join you guys |
| 18:48.18 | mindjuju | carmony fo sho! |
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| 18:57.23 | mindjuju | so carmony, next week work for you for a little TF2? |
| 18:57.29 | mindjuju | can't be Monday, i have a final |
| 18:57.34 | mindjuju | maybe tuesday? |
| 19:00.30 | Utah_Dave | Tues works for me! |
| 19:00.57 | ninnypants | can someone help me troubleshoot a query? |
| 19:01.00 | ninnypants | http://pastebin.com/RqS2RvqU |
| 19:02.16 | ninnypants | I've got this query, but it keeps telling me that alms_users.data_record_id column doesn't exist, but it does |
| 19:02.49 | ninnypants | the query also works on another server |
| 19:19.50 | wps | if you include a script within a function, the contents of the script are only available within the function, right? |
| 19:26.10 | jtsnow | wps: any variables in the include file inherit the scope of wherever you include the file. Any functions or classes in the include file have global scope |
| 19:31.16 | shawn__ | redroy: sorry for the delay, I got a call. That link really helped. I am pretty sure I can handle it from here. |
| 19:32.57 | fungus | mindjuju, How can you play TF2 at a time like this? |
| 19:33.03 | fungus | Portal 2 is out. |
| 19:36.50 | mindjuju | i actually haven't bought it yet, allowance comes on Wednesdays |
| 19:36.52 | mindjuju | then I can buy |
| 19:36.59 | mindjuju | have you played it yet? |
| 19:37.07 | fungus | of course |
| 19:37.13 | mindjuju | is it awesome? |
| 19:37.16 | fungus | totally |
| 19:37.31 | fungus | Didn't get to sleep until 2am |
| 19:37.36 | mindjuju | oh wow |
| 19:37.47 | mindjuju | how far are you? |
| 19:38.07 | mindjuju | have they said anything about the Borealis ? |
| 19:38.26 | mindjuju | I hear that you hear Cave Johnsons voice or something |
| 19:38.33 | fungus | yup |
| 19:38.35 | fungus | really cool |
| 19:38.42 | mindjuju | i love his commercials for apeture science |
| 19:39.14 | fungus | lol, wait till you hear him guide you through some tests. |
| 19:39.24 | mindjuju | oh man! |
| 19:39.40 | mindjuju | maybe i should get a loan from bank of villa and buy it for this weekend |
| 19:39.51 | fungus | I'm not done yet, just ticking the time away when I can go home and play more. |
| 19:39.54 | DexterTheDragon | mindjuju: sellout |
| 19:40.22 | mindjuju | oh come DtD, i hear there's tons of hl2.3 stuff in it |
| 19:41.16 | mindjuju | DtD, are you never ever going to play? |
| 19:41.32 | DexterTheDragon | I'll play it eventually |
| 19:41.54 | mindjuju | well, i do have several games on steam i haven't gotten around to play because of no time |
| 19:42.01 | mindjuju | including Left for dead 2 |
| 19:42.08 | mindjuju | and psychonauts |
| 19:42.18 | mindjuju | and a couple others, wehre price just too cheap to pass up |
| 19:43.33 | mgeary | see, that's another good reason to only have Macs |
| 19:43.41 | mgeary | you don't waste as much time playing games |
| 19:43.48 | fungus | mgeary, I play on a Mac |
| 19:43.50 | mindjuju | portal 2 is out for the mac |
| 19:44.06 | mgeary | yeah, well. whatever |
| 19:44.34 | fungus | I have Fallout 3 for PS3 |
| 19:45.29 | DexterTheDragon | HAH |
| 19:45.35 | mgeary | guess not |
| 19:46.39 | fungus | oh cool. A new Elder Scrolls is going to be released this year. |
| 19:46.53 | carmony | on my b-day no less |
| 19:47.03 | ninnypants | guess that means I need to get through the last one |
| 19:47.19 | mindjuju | fungus, do you still play wow? |
| 19:47.29 | ninnypants | wow |
| 19:47.34 | fungus | Yes I do, but I take breaks now to play other games. |
| 19:47.58 | fungus | like Dragon Age 2, and Portal 2 |
| 19:48.07 | ninnypants | I have my save still just need to install and keep playing |
| 19:48.09 | mindjuju | seeing the south park wow episode is the closest i've gotten to playing |
| 19:48.21 | fungus | lol, that one is funny |
| 19:57.38 | ninnypants | any ideas on this query http://pastebin.com/RqS2RvqU it tells me that alms_users.data_record_id is an unknown column, but it exists and the query works on another server |
| 20:09.46 | carmony | fungus, have you beaten portal 2 yet. |
| 20:09.57 | fungus | No but i'm pretty close. |
| 20:10.16 | fungus | started chapter 8 at 2am, but couldn't keep eyes open. |
| 20:10.45 | carmony | lol |
| 20:10.51 | carmony | I'm stuck on ch 6 |
| 20:10.53 | carmony | or is it 7? |
| 20:12.10 | fungus | yeah, those new tests are kinda crazy. |
| 20:13.26 | carmony | I have a long pit to jump, with a thing int he middle, and the exit at the end. I figured out how to get to the middle, but I can't figure out how to get to the exit :P |
| 20:14.48 | carmony | and I just figured it out |
| 20:15.05 | fungus | hehe |
| 20:15.22 | carmony | finding all the different "portal" points is tough towards the end. |
| 20:19.52 | Utah_Dave | Git question. There are no changes in my master branch. I've made a bunch of changes in my branche named "project_average_branch" |
| 20:20.18 | Utah_Dave | When I merge the "project_average_branch" into master I get several conflicts in 3 files. |
| 20:20.46 | Utah_Dave | I'm pretty sure I just want to use all changes from the other branch. Is there a way to do that without having to go over each line that has a conflict? |
| 20:25.00 | carmony | fungus: lol, ANOTHER kind of gel? sheesh :P |
| 20:25.16 | fungus | lol, of course. |
| 20:25.37 | fungus | do it |
| 20:26.12 | carmony | mindjuju: oooor, I could just lend you my steam account login :P |
| 20:26.21 | mindjuju | nah |
| 20:26.30 | mindjuju | cause the second half of the game is co-op |
| 20:26.40 | mindjuju | i hear that you have to play the co-op to get the rest of the story |
| 20:26.51 | mindjuju | so i'd need my own to co-op with you |
| 20:29.23 | mindjuju | so fungus, i'm reading about this uber tool called systemtap or stap |
| 20:29.33 | mindjuju | have you heard of it / use it / not so uber ? |
| 20:29.49 | *** join/#uphpu mastergunns (~mastergun@216.49.181.128) |
| 20:29.51 | fungus | No i haven't heard of it. |
| 20:29.51 | *** join/#uphpu josephscott (~josephsco@208.95.152.44) |
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| 20:29.54 | fungus | is it cool? |
| 20:30.32 | fungus | interesting, looks like a Linux clone of DTrace |
| 20:30.53 | mindjuju | not sure, i'mr reading some documentation on optimizing linux from IBM and they are mtnioning that systemtap : |
| 20:30.56 | mindjuju | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:30.57 | mindjuju | developed to dynamically instrument the kernel and provide enough data to the |
| 20:30.57 | mindjuju | system analysts to analy ze the performance problems. |
| 20:32.22 | fungus | ah, appears to require some special kernel options. |
| 20:32.27 | mindjuju | oh |
| 20:32.36 | fungus | might be worth looking at for the future though. |
| 20:34.00 | mindjuju | looking further into this documentation, this stuff seems to be pretty deep |
| 20:36.09 | fungus | yes, (assuming it's like dtrace) it goes very deep and is quite complex. |
| 20:53.19 | mindjuju | @mgeary, have you seen this? i'd be interested to hear your response - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOyaJ2UI7Ss |
| 20:56.42 | *** join/#uphpu kingsol (~kingsol@64.0.193.30) |
| 20:57.23 | mgeary | mindjuju: i think it's a red herring and attempt to misdirect |
| 20:58.05 | mgeary | kind of like the "10 men go into a bar and agree to pay for drinks like our taxes work" |
| 20:58.19 | mindjuju | yeah, analogy did seem a little forced |
| 20:59.42 | redroy | shawn__: No worries, just got back myself ;) |
| 21:00.50 | mgeary | mindjuju: i would too |
| 21:01.05 | mindjuju | :) |
| 21:01.57 | mgeary | i liked the clip from Anthony Weiner a bit ago. If we can all agree that taxes are necessary, then it really just becomes a matter of dividing up how those taxes are levied. Now, if you're one of those people who think ALL taxes are illegal and a complete non-starter, there's not much of a conversation to have |
| 21:02.22 | mgeary | now, that's not to say we can't be much, much more prudent about what taxes are spent on |
| 21:02.44 | mindjuju | no, a citizen does have an obligation to the maintenance of the state |
| 21:03.09 | mgeary | and clearly some of that goes down to priorities. I, for example, think it's ludicrous that we spend as much as we do on our defense. Other people think it's just great. |
| 21:03.37 | mindjuju | but that's not out of the realm of compromise, methinks |
| 21:04.19 | mgeary | those are, i believe, more opinion-based issues. However, when people start arguing that trickle-down economics works, despite the utter lack of any evidence in favor of that over the last 8+ years, i believe at that point, logic starts being thrown out the window, and those proponents start to lose credibility |
| 21:05.21 | mindjuju | that's like the 3rd time you've mentioned trickle down economics negatively, you must really hate the concept |
| 21:05.53 | mgeary | show me any evidence that it works. that it's not just the rich and their proponents trying to make a case for just keeping more of their money |
| 21:06.04 | mgeary | and yes, that's a very logical instinct. i, too, would like to keep more of my money |
| 21:06.18 | mgeary | but i'm not in a position to manipulate the system |
| 21:06.45 | mindjuju | what system do you see as a viable alternative to trickle down ? |
| 21:06.53 | mgeary | and i'm not inclined to keep my money and cause those less fortunate than i to slip into an increasing spiral of misery and deprivation |
| 21:07.56 | mindjuju | so is that an argument to increased / higher levels of taxation or a call to increase support of charities |
| 21:08.09 | mindjuju | do you see increase taxation with our current spending habits as dangerous? |
| 21:08.29 | mgeary | would you put a charity in charge of meat inspection? Or wall street regulation? |
| 21:08.32 | mindjuju | or perhaps foolish is a better word than dangerous |
| 21:09.04 | mindjuju | hmm, well, i was actually responding to this statement, with my question about giving more to charities |
| 21:09.04 | mindjuju | and cause those less fortunate than i to slip into an increasing spiral of misery and deprivation |
| 21:09.38 | mgeary | charities play a role there, but i'm talking more about funding public education, providing support for the disabled, etc. |
| 21:11.52 | mgeary | what i really grow tired of is the bickering over funding of Planned Parenthood and NPR, and the complete ignoring of the big 3: Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, and Defense spending |
| 21:12.34 | mindjuju | i agree on the issue of NPR, it's spending is peanuts compared to some real money wasters |
| 21:12.41 | mindjuju | PP i haven't really thought about |
| 21:14.19 | ninnypants | I would say that it's likely that PP saves us more money than it costs just in welfare savings |
| 21:16.29 | mindjuju | determining the societal necessity and viability of social services, that's a thorny issue |
| 21:16.31 | mgeary | i don't have strong feelings about PP, but it really ticked me off when the republicans started lying about them on the senate floor, saying 90% of what they do is abortions |
| 21:16.38 | mgeary | when it's really more like 5% |
| 21:16.59 | ninnypants | I think it's even less than that |
| 21:17.15 | mgeary | ninnypants: i saw two sources. one reported 3% and one 10%, so i split the diff ;) |
| 21:17.46 | ninnypants | mgeary: makes sense I believe I heard the 3% but couldn't remember the exact % |
| 21:18.33 | mindjuju | NPR & PP stick out as sore thumbs on an ideological level for conservatives, and attacked under the guise fiscal responsibility, no i agree on that |
| 21:18.34 | ninnypants | I think my real issue is that 43% of americans don't pay any tax |
| 21:18.43 | ninnypants | I think that's the right % |
| 21:18.51 | mgeary | ninnypants: but that's because of the disappearing middle class |
| 21:19.25 | mgeary | when all the wealth is concentrated in such a small percentage of people you can't be surprised if we have so many people who don't earn enough to pay (any/significant) taxes |
| 21:19.30 | ninnypants | mgeary: true but I'm one of those 43% and I don't feel that I'm so bad off that I couldn't pay at least a little |
| 21:20.25 | mgeary | and you can't tell me that the super wealthy haven't used every resource available to them to skew things in their favor. Again, i don't necessarily blame them for trying to do this, but the reality is, the wealthy have a voice in how things go in this country, and the poor do not |
| 21:20.30 | ninnypants | and if you charged something low like $5 that's an extra 1billion |
| 21:21.00 | ninnypants | mgeary: I definitely agree |
| 21:21.35 | ninnypants | I think lobbying shouldn't be allowed on any real level other than by a citizen to their representatives |
| 21:21.42 | ninnypants | money shouldn't be involved |
| 21:22.22 | fungus | From what I gathered from the "10 men in a bar" analogy was we shouldn't tax the rich too much cause they might go to another country. |
| 21:22.40 | fungus | That, IMHO, sounds like we are letting them hold us hostage. |
| 21:23.23 | carmony | gaaaaah this level is killing me |
| 21:23.36 | fungus | ninnypants, the lobbying laws are pretty good already. The real problem is in corporate campaign donations. |
| 21:23.40 | mindjuju | on the other hand, and this is just devil's advocate, do we need that beer from that establishment |
| 21:23.51 | mindjuju | are there cheaper alternatives that are more reasonable ? |
| 21:24.15 | mindjuju | a level where we can all contribute equally |
| 21:24.26 | mindjuju | might not be as tasty, but it is equitable |
| 21:25.03 | ninnypants | fungus: that's probably more of what I was thinking of though that could be considered lobbying because it encourages the candidate to vote for the corporations issues if he is elected |
| 21:25.58 | mgeary | anyways, i think we spend way too much on defense. I think the insurance companies are almost completely to blame for the skyrocketing medical costs. |
| 21:26.22 | fungus | mindjuju, the problem with a flat tax, is that, in order to maintain same tax revenue, you need to raise the taxes on the poor a whole lot more, to make up for the reduced taxes on the rich. That will make a lot of poor people homeless. |
| 21:26.29 | ninnypants | mgeary: agreed |
| 21:27.03 | mindjuju | that's one way fungus, another is to tax equally and reduce our spending |
| 21:27.20 | mgeary | not equally. fairly. |
| 21:27.23 | fungus | each percentage point to a poor person hurts a whole lot more than that same percentage point on a very rich person. |
| 21:27.58 | mindjuju | but then that pushes us back to the $10 beers |
| 21:29.23 | mgeary | our current system rewards the super wealthy, because basically once you cross ~$350k in AGI, you can make as much more as possible and your tax burden stays at a fixed percentage. If anything, those poor saps right at $350k ought to be the ones complaining |
| 21:29.24 | fungus | mindjuju, but that means 4 or 5 people can't even come get beer. |
| 21:31.34 | fungus | My point was, in a flat tax ($10 beer) scenario, the poor people can't afford it at all, and go under. |
| 21:32.45 | mindjuju | no, i understand that. what i'm saying is that if you extend your argument to those who have the $$ get what they want versus those who have no $$ don't get cause they don't have, i'm saying that puts us in a dangerous spot |
| 21:33.41 | mindjuju | i think you've got a strong valid point, i'm weighing it against my ideas of social contract and personal responsibilities |
| 21:34.16 | mindjuju | and at the same time, i'm reading the IBM thing , and i never knew that during a crisis, i'm suppose to run uptime first to see what the CPU is doing |
| 21:34.43 | mindjuju | and who knew that the 3 nums were CPU usage from 1, 5 and 15 minutes ago? |
| 21:34.44 | mgeary | it's easy to talk about personal responsibilities when you've been given a lot. Talk to a widow who is raising a handicapped child about personal responsibilities. |
| 21:35.07 | fungus | mindjuju, that's load not CPU usage. There's a difference. |
| 21:35.28 | fungus | but load is a very valuable stat to track and understand. |
| 21:35.40 | fungus | often more important than CPU usage |
| 21:37.55 | carmony | this game is going to break my brain |
| 21:38.15 | mindjuju | so mgeary, widows and handicapped children -- truly a sad scenario, and i'm sure there are at least tens of thousands in our country that are in that scenario |
| 21:39.04 | carmony | lol, more like I'm stuck again |
| 21:39.16 | mindjuju | does the government have a responsibility to the widow/widower, and what is that responsibility ? |
| 21:40.39 | mindjuju | i think a person has a responsibility to look after his neighbor and to provide according to how much he/she has |
| 21:40.47 | mindjuju | but is that a governmental responsibility ? |
| 21:40.48 | mgeary | well, i'd prefer to phrase it as, do we as a society have a responsibility to these people, and, if you want to take a more mercenary approach, is there a benefit for us in assuming a responsibility for them? |
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| 21:41.38 | mindjuju | well, i use government there because I see two actionable entities that can do something, the Citizen and the State |
| 21:41.57 | mgeary | there are a number of studies that suggest that money spent on, for example, literacy programs, education, health programs, high-risk intervention programs, etc. yield a much greater savings by putting a timely band-aid in place, instead of waiting and having to amputate |
| 21:42.25 | mgeary | this is especially relevant and easy to document in health care |
| 21:42.39 | mindjuju | but is this a governmental issue or a citizen's issue? |
| 21:42.44 | mindjuju | who should pay? |
| 21:43.06 | mgeary | citizens acting together equals government |
| 21:43.21 | mindjuju | i'm sure the american red cross would look a ittle confused |
| 21:43.28 | mgeary | it's not like the government is some rogue malevolent entity |
| 21:43.43 | mindjuju | no, that's true, but it isn't the fix-all either |
| 21:43.43 | mgeary | it gets me when people say we need to "take back our lands from the federal governmenet" |
| 21:44.04 | mgeary | yeah, let's take Zion National park back and give it to whom, exactly? |
| 21:44.18 | mgeary | anyways, not to change topics |
| 21:44.20 | mindjuju | at some level, we do have a personal responsibility for ourselves, we can't portion that off to the gov |
| 21:44.51 | mgeary | yes. i don't disagree. but i don't think anyone really wants a "nanny state" |
| 21:45.08 | mgeary | i think that's again, just extremists trying to make everything an emotional issue |
| 21:45.56 | mindjuju | so what obligation lies on who? |
| 21:46.56 | mgeary | that's a very big and nebulous question, and i'm sure any answer i could come up with could be poked full of all kinds of holes |
| 21:47.23 | mgeary | but clearly many things are broken in our country |
| 21:47.25 | PoeticIntensity | as could anyone's |
| 21:47.29 | mindjuju | if we were engaged in a polarized argument, that would be true, as we aren't though, i'm interested to see a framework |
| 21:47.34 | jsmith | mindjuju: Who is your neighbor? |
| 21:47.41 | mindjuju | not you, you punk |
| 21:47.47 | mindjuju | you and your popeye eating ways |
| 21:47.53 | PoeticIntensity | haha... |
| 21:48.01 | jsmith | mindjuju: Glad to hear it -- more popeye's for me :-) |
| 21:48.02 | mindjuju | :) |
| 21:48.21 | jsmith | I just love the way the Red Dot hot sauce makes my mouth water... |
| 21:48.44 | josephscott | $8ball should I eat at Popeye's? |
| 21:48.44 | raifbot | josephscott - Yes. |
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| 21:49.02 | mindjuju | @jsmith - i'm a big fan of cholula right now |
| 21:49.47 | mindjuju | @mgeary i think you and @fungus have given me some things to think about |
| 21:50.28 | mindjuju | it is unfortunate that todays' political climate does not allow for civilized social discourse |
| 21:51.07 | fungus | i agree. This kind of debate is important. |
| 21:52.40 | carmony | utahcon: pc |
| 21:53.16 | mindjuju | so fungus, do you use /usr/bin/w or uptime ? |
| 21:53.37 | fungus | usually w, cause it's easier to type |
| 21:53.42 | mindjuju | ah |
| 21:54.12 | mindjuju | same as up except gives you who is logged in and what they are doing |
| 21:54.17 | mindjuju | plus it's easier to type, i love it |
| 21:56.24 | jsmith | mindjuju: Have you tried the Cholula Chili Lime flavor? |
| 21:56.35 | mindjuju | Zoinks! is there such a thing? |
| 21:57.26 | jsmith | mindjuju: cholula.com, my friend :-) You've gotta get out more... |
| 21:57.54 | mindjuju | :) |
| 21:58.03 | mindjuju | after this semester, i'm taking summer off |
| 21:58.08 | mindjuju | i'm so ready for a break |
| 21:58.25 | mindjuju | now, if you don't mind, i'm trying to wrap my brain around this |
| 21:58.31 | mindjuju | NI: Niceness level (that is, whether the process tries to be nice by adjusting the priority by the number given). |
| 21:58.58 | mindjuju | so a process says how important it is |
| 21:59.10 | mindjuju | ? |
| 21:59.29 | stderr- | mgeary: trickle down economics is not an actual economic theory, thus why it's impossible to prove. It's a political term. |
| 22:00.17 | redroy | $chuck-fact |
| 22:00.17 | raifbot | Chuck Norris frequently donates blood to the Red Cross. Just never his own. |
| 22:00.38 | redroy | we need some political chuck facts |
| 22:01.49 | mindjuju | oh man! nmon looks AWESOME! |
| 22:02.11 | mgeary | stderr-: i'll agree with that, but the right-wingers insist it's the only viable solution to our current woes, and it's amazing to me that anyone who isn't a millionaire drinks that Kool-Aid |
| 22:03.32 | stderr- | I wouldn't get into an economics argument with someone who's a proponent of "trickle down economics", because all it is is kool-aid. |
| 22:05.19 | mgeary | oh yes you would. i know you at least THAT well enough ;) |
| 22:05.49 | redroy | but glenn beck made the kool-aid⦠and used two packets; that counts for something |
| 22:05.52 | stderr- | well I'd troll them and laugh behind their back but I wouldn't really debate them. |
| 22:06.32 | stderr- | Sowell, a conservative economist (laissez-faire proponent), has written a lot about the "trickle-down economics" crap. |
| 22:06.37 | stderr- | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell |
| 22:07.35 | stderr- | I'm not really a fan of him for various reasons, I'm just showing that even conservative economists laugh at the term. |
| 22:21.01 | PoeticIntensity | I'm gonna show my complete ignorance here... But, don't I have a job due to trickle-down economics? |
| 22:21.27 | PoeticIntensity | Could be completely missing the point. Probably am. |
| 22:21.54 | *** join/#uphpu kingsol (~kingsol@64.0.193.30) |
| 22:22.08 | PoeticIntensity | The last two companies I've worked for have done profit-sharing, and have had more than 100 employees... |
| 22:22.16 | PoeticIntensity | When the owner makes his millions, we all get a little kick-back... |
| 22:22.38 | PoeticIntensity | very isolated incident, but ... isn't that an example of trickle-down? |
| 22:22.58 | PoeticIntensity | (being quite honest here... I really know very little about the subject) |
| 22:23.09 | *** join/#uphpu kingsol_ (~kingsol@64.0.193.30) |
| 22:23.55 | mindjuju | you may want to invoke a name poeticintensity, to get a response |
| 22:25.18 | PoeticIntensity | stderr-, mgeary ...^^^ |
| 22:25.21 | PoeticIntensity | (good idea) |
| 22:26.27 | stderr- | Taxation rate on the wealthy has been proven not to influence spending. Business / economic cycles spur the wealthy to spend. Taxation rate, however, does have an effect on the spending of those in the lower brackets. What taxation rate affects on the wealthy is _savings_. |
| 22:26.49 | stderr- | The 50s were a booming era, yet the top marginal tax rate was 91%. |
| 22:27.15 | stderr- | http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php |
| 22:27.58 | stderr- | There have been a large swath of reports done on this, including by Moody's (a company that specializes in economic analysis, amongst other things) |
| 22:28.01 | stderr- | http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-09-13/rich-americans-save-money-from-tax-cuts-instead-of-spending-moody-s-says.html |
| 22:28.03 | carmony | lol, in Portal 2 they have blue sceens of death |
| 22:29.05 | stderr- | What you're confusing is taxation and willingness to spend at those top tax brackets, when they're, indeed, not correlated at all, as sensible as it may seem. |
| 22:30.05 | stderr- | What Keynesian economists argue (amongst many things) is that by cutting taxes for those in the lower brackets, you increase spending, which in turn spurs those business cycles that the wealthy rely on to determine how much _they_ spend. |
| 22:30.33 | PoeticIntensity | Very interesting. Makes a lot of sense, actually. |
| 22:31.29 | PoeticIntensity | Have there been any studies done on the effects of high-taxation of businesses? |
| 22:31.34 | mgeary | and i'd just like to point out that i referenced those Moody's conclusions just a couple of days ago in this very forum |
| 22:31.46 | mgeary | though i didn't have the great link, thanks, stderr- |
| 22:32.14 | PoeticIntensity | mgeary, that is. |
| 22:32.52 | stderr- | PoeticIntensity: there have been, but it's a much murkier issue, filled with subsidies and tax loopholes and the like |
| 22:33.10 | PoeticIntensity | stands to reason. |
| 22:33.29 | stderr- | I certainly agree with cutting small business taxation down as much as possible. |
| 22:33.49 | PoeticIntensity | Seems that the business owners would just pass along the taxation on to their clients... Either that, or go out of business. |
| 22:34.01 | stderr- | and I also see the need to end many subsidies to large corporations, closing the tax loopholes they exploit, and raising their damn taxes (or at least making sure they pay the ones they owe) |
| 22:34.16 | stderr- | all of which are pretty moderate ideas |
| 22:34.27 | PoeticIntensity | yup. Gotta pay what ya owe, for sure. |
| 22:34.59 | PoeticIntensity | Thinking logically... I do everything I possibly can to get out of paying taxes.... I think everyone would. |
| 22:35.06 | stderr- | I'm certainly no economic expert, so I tend to bow out when it comes to arguments around business taxation. |
| 22:35.09 | PoeticIntensity | I assume the big businesses do the same. |
| 22:35.16 | stderr- | but I'm a personal believer in income tax, and could stand to pay more. |
| 22:35.28 | PoeticIntensity | I see.... |
| 22:35.44 | PoeticIntensity | I'm all for taxation. I live in a great state / country... and should have to pay my fair share to live here. |
| 22:35.47 | stderr- | (I'm in a fairly high tax bracket) |
| 22:36.31 | PoeticIntensity | Yeah... I don't do much research on the matter, but I enjoy talking about it to learn more. |
| 22:37.21 | PoeticIntensity | and to be completely honest, I'm pretty jaded when it comes to reviews / statistics / findings / etc... Just because I've come to realize that just about any statistic can be fabricated pretty well, with plenty of references. |
| 22:37.41 | stderr- | especially economics. |
| 22:37.44 | PoeticIntensity | no doubt. |
| 22:38.14 | PoeticIntensity | So, I usually just try to think about it logically, and look at what is *really* happening in the world around me... Plug that in to my brain and see what makes sense to me. |
| 22:38.15 | stderr- | the amount of variables in economics is vast, so particular economists get to pick and choose which ones they use for whatever model they're coming up with. |
| 22:38.51 | stderr- | yea, that's pretty much how I go about it too. |
| 22:38.57 | PoeticIntensity | yup. and that (seems to me) is a perfect template for coming up with whatever suits the agenda. |
| 22:39.12 | PoeticIntensity | (the variables comment, that is) |
| 22:39.19 | stderr- | right |
| 22:39.54 | PoeticIntensity | I am slanted to the right, though, just due to my family and other biases I've had in life. |
| 22:40.16 | PoeticIntensity | but I'm pretty ignorant, so I try to keep an open mind. |
| 22:40.24 | stderr- | nothing wrong with that. I'm, obviously, slanted the other way. |
| 22:40.37 | PoeticIntensity | hehe.... |
| 22:40.48 | PoeticIntensity | and I laugh every time someone brings up Glenn Beck... hehe... |
| 22:40.51 | PoeticIntensity | He used to be such a nobody... |
| 22:41.05 | stderr- | the charade that goes on in Washington, especially this token budget cutting by the right, should piss anyone off though. |
| 22:41.08 | PoeticIntensity | and now that he has his spot in the limelight, everyone either seems to hate his guts or think he's the savior. |
| 22:41.21 | stderr- | I thought he got kicked out of the limelight. |
| 22:41.39 | stderr- | Although I did just hear his quote about hookers using planned parenthood. That was classy. |
| 22:41.46 | PoeticIntensity | He might have... I listen to him because I find him freakin' hilarious. As soon as he starts talking economics or politics, I usually turn it off. |
| 22:42.14 | PoeticIntensity | and truth be told, I don't know much about the budget cuts going on now, either. |
| 22:42.41 | PoeticIntensity | I know it's a pretty heated subject due to the stuff I'm reading now, though. |
| 22:43.00 | stderr- | it's all a charade. |
| 22:43.08 | PoeticIntensity | hehe... I think cutting stuff that sucks is good, and cutting stuff that is important is bad. |
| 22:43.41 | stderr- | agreed! |
| 22:43.58 | PoeticIntensity | haha.... nice. |
| 22:44.06 | fungus | PoeticIntensity, what about the stuff that is neither? :) |
| 22:44.16 | PoeticIntensity | well.... |
| 22:44.24 | PoeticIntensity | if it isn't helping anyone out, then cut it. |
| 22:44.33 | PoeticIntensity | got an example? |
| 22:44.51 | mindjuju | cheese, don't cut that |
| 22:44.57 | PoeticIntensity | Because if it ain't helping anyone, I don't want them spending my money on it. |
| 22:45.07 | PoeticIntensity | (my .000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the revenue, that is) |
| 22:45.14 | stderr- | *defense spending *cough** |
| 22:45.40 | PoeticIntensity | *sigh*.... I'm torn on that. I personally think (lately) that we spend way too much on it. |
| 22:45.44 | stderr- | I'm pretty hawkish in my foreign policy, but crikey, defense spending could use a a good trimming. |
| 22:45.55 | PoeticIntensity | probably. |
| 22:45.59 | stderr- | still trying to prepare for WW3 when we're fighting small tactical battles |
| 22:46.44 | stderr- | I mean, I don't know how useful the F22 is against terrorists and insurgencies. |
| 22:46.47 | PoeticIntensity | Throwing down tyranny is good, I believe... But when we're in so much debt that **billions** of dollars seems trivial... I say let's cut the shining knight act, and get our own house in order. |
| 22:47.17 | stderr- | agreed |
| 22:47.29 | mgeary | well, i look at defense and i say to myself, "if China were ever to go on the violent aggressive, don't you think it'd be much more likely that they'd try to cripple our economy or attack our network-based infrastructure (bring down our financial systems, etc.), than throw missile's at us?" |
| 22:48.06 | PoeticIntensity | see.... why aren't the politicians like that? Logic seems to win in most cases... |
| 22:48.20 | PoeticIntensity | mgeary, as far as missles go... I'd rather not have any. Likely or not. |
| 22:48.25 | mgeary | i think we're always stuck fighting last year's/decade's/century's war |
| 22:48.33 | stderr- | mgeary: no no no |
| 22:48.39 | stderr- | we're fighting the war 50 years from now |
| 22:48.42 | PoeticIntensity | I think keeping ourselves safe is pretty darn important. |
| 22:48.49 | stderr- | that's why, just on the F22 and the F35, we spend half a trillion dollars |
| 22:48.51 | stderr- | seriously. |
| 22:49.06 | stderr- | when the Chinese are two generations behind us in AF technology |
| 22:49.07 | stderr- | 9_9 |
| 22:49.25 | PoeticIntensity | logic strikes again. |
| 22:49.27 | mgeary | but again, do you really think they're going to try to invade? |
| 22:49.28 | PoeticIntensity | agreed. |
| 22:49.35 | stderr- | of course not. |
| 22:49.37 | mgeary | and/or throw bombs? |
| 22:49.37 | PoeticIntensity | mgeary, I have no idea at all... None whatsoever. |
| 22:49.50 | stderr- | We need a strong military, but we should put our focus on ground troops. |
| 22:49.52 | PoeticIntensity | mostly due to my own ignorance. |
| 22:50.15 | PoeticIntensity | I really, really enjoying feeling safe knowing how strong our defense is, truth be told. |
| 22:50.16 | stderr- | I mean, isn't it tragic that we spent that much on two fighter jets and in Iraq I knew guys who didn't even have any body armor? |
| 22:50.29 | PoeticIntensity | stderr-, that completely sucks. |
| 22:50.36 | PoeticIntensity | agreed. |
| 22:50.58 | stderr- | I've been relatively calm but I'm starting to work myself up, so lemme take a breather. |
| 22:51.20 | PoeticIntensity | But invading this place, or that place, or trying to stop this country or that country, or anything - while our debt is completely out of control - is ludicrous, to me. |
| 22:51.25 | PoeticIntensity | (thanks for the chat, stderr- ) |
| 22:51.38 | PoeticIntensity | it's always good chatting with smart, informed people. |
| 22:52.12 | stderr- | PoeticIntensity: I'm with you 100%. But, look at the money loop: supply weapons to country, 20 years later, invade country, destroy infrastructure, then give rebuilding contracts to American companies |
| 22:52.16 | stderr- | and then restart the cycle. |
| 22:52.18 | stderr- | *sigh* |
| 22:52.39 | PoeticIntensity | hmm.... interesting. |
| 22:53.12 | PoeticIntensity | if that really is the thought process in Washington, then I think that's criminal. |
| 22:53.22 | stderr- | I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but that's just the logical endgame of what Eisenhower warned us about. |
| 22:53.37 | PoeticIntensity | yeah. |
| 22:53.38 | mgeary | yeap |
| 22:53.40 | stderr- | PoeticIntensity: I don't think it's like this shadowy plan to do it, it's just a natural extension of us dealing arms and supporting regimes. |
| 22:54.00 | PoeticIntensity | agreed, stderr- |
| 22:54.33 | stderr- | tragic, though. It's tragic that foreign civilians and our military members suffer because of it. |
| 22:57.55 | stderr- | time to switch gears. Anyone watch Sons of Anarchy? ;-) |
| 22:58.17 | mindjuju | nope, but i think it's got the guy from Hellboy |
| 22:58.36 | *** join/#uphpu kingsol (~kingsol@64.0.193.31) |
| 22:58.46 | stderr- | yea, Ron Perlman. He's great in it. |
| 22:59.45 | PoeticIntensity | (boss came in) |
| 23:00.41 | stderr- | no worries |
| 23:01.20 | *** join/#uphpu redroy (~Adium@67.137.120.26) |
| 23:01.39 | PoeticIntensity | I think everyone in Washington should be required to see what really goes on in a battle.... No... To actually be there, in order to get voted in. |
| 23:01.52 | PoeticIntensity | Might change a few policies... |
| 23:02.37 | stderr- | it's a hard problem. Some of the Joint Chiefs and commanding generals haven't even seen battle. |
| 23:03.06 | PoeticIntensity | is that not odd? |
| 23:03.32 | PoeticIntensity | Seems to me that even the smartest people in the world can only be benefited to actually immerse themselves in whatever they are deciding on. |
| 23:03.33 | skinner | Especially since someone with a Bachelors degree can walk into the military and get in as an officer, get a desk job, climb ranks sending e-mail, etc... |
| 23:05.23 | stderr- | yea, we'd get a lot of green-behind-the-ears butter bars in Afghanistan and Iraq who'd be our platoon leader and we'd all have far more combat experience than them. |
| 23:05.28 | stderr- | suppose it's a trial by fire, though. |
| 23:06.17 | stderr- | squad / platoon leader, that is. |
| 23:06.30 | stderr- | I'm turning into a civilian 9_9 |
| 23:07.23 | mindjuju | k, i'm at the end of my day, see you gents later |
| 23:07.32 | PoeticIntensity | chao, mindjuju |
| 23:07.33 | stderr- | yup, my wife is making ribs, I gotta jet too :9 |
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