| 00:02.07 | thebigdog | yeah |
| 00:02.23 | thebigdog | density and scale are really the only options |
| 00:02.36 | thebigdog | i dont think resize would be an option for you |
| 00:02.45 | thebigdog | scale might be better than density |
| 00:06.33 | thebigdog | so mgeary you want a pdf to svg? |
| 00:16.05 | mgeary | thebigdog: no, to a vector pdf |
| 00:18.02 | beandog | whats the vector, victor |
| 00:19.07 | SunSparc | We have clearance, Clarence |
| 00:23.17 | mgeary | bah |
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| 00:28.46 | josephscott | ~flot++ |
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| 00:30.48 | TuxToaster | what is flot? |
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| 00:31.17 | TuxToaster | ooh |
| 00:32.08 | TuxToaster | those are pretty slick graphs. |
| 00:34.17 | mgeary | so, thebigdog |
| 00:36.01 | TuxToaster | $8ball does ally still suck? |
| 00:36.01 | raifbot | TuxToaster - Yes - definitely. |
| 00:36.13 | TuxToaster | josephscott: lol. Just saw an ally bank ad and had to ask. |
| 00:36.24 | josephscott | :-) |
| 00:37.39 | thebigdog | mgeary: yeah |
| 00:37.47 | SunSparc | laterz all! |
| 00:39.37 | mgeary | thebigdog: -density looks like it will work decent enough. how do i get it to create one graphic for each page of the pdf? |
| 00:44.15 | thebigdog | mgeary: it will just do that |
| 00:44.22 | thebigdog | mgeary: you on linux doing the conversion |
| 00:44.32 | thebigdog | another simple tool is pdftopbm |
| 00:44.46 | mgeary | yeah, i couldn't get netpbm to compile on my mac |
| 00:45.03 | thebigdog | macports |
| 00:45.07 | mgeary | psh |
| 00:45.33 | thebigdog | oh yeah...oh yeah |
| 00:45.49 | thebigdog | builds for me |
| 00:45.50 | thebigdog | hehe |
| 00:45.57 | mgeary | builds and works? |
| 00:46.04 | mgeary | seems like maybe i got a bus error |
| 00:46.16 | mgeary | builds from source? or wimpports? |
| 00:48.32 | mgeary | yeah, doesn't build for me from svn |
| 00:48.39 | mgeary | not with the default options, anyways |
| 00:51.01 | mgeary | ~challenge thebigdog |
| 00:56.18 | ninnypants1 | ~roulette |
| 00:56.18 | ibot | ACTION watches ninnypants1 pull the trigger: Click! |
| 00:56.31 | mgeary | ~roulette |
| 00:56.31 | ibot | ACTION watches mgeary pull the trigger: Click! |
| 00:56.46 | DexterTheDragon | ~roulette |
| 00:56.46 | ibot | ACTION watches dexterthedragon pull the trigger: BANG! |
| 00:57.26 | mgeary | thebigdog: so, for some reason, it will create a graphic per page when generating jpgs, but not when generating pbms... :S |
| 00:58.32 | ninnypants | isn't there one tha kicks the person that loses? |
| 00:58.39 | ninnypants | with roulette that is |
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| 01:33.54 | thebigdog | mgeary: builds with uberports |
| 01:34.07 | thebigdog | yeah |
| 01:35.25 | mgeary | which package did you install? netpbm? I did that and it didn't install pdftopbm |
| 01:35.35 | mgeary | yet there isn't a package with that name |
| 01:35.57 | thebigdog | do you use macports? |
| 01:37.03 | mgeary | either macports or darwinports |
| 01:37.06 | mgeary | maybe darwin |
| 01:37.34 | thebigdog | might be part of xpdf |
| 01:38.43 | mgeary | sure enough |
| 01:40.37 | thebigdog | you know i need a little love on that |
| 01:43.48 | mgeary | ~thebigdog++ |
| 01:43.51 | mgeary | you mean like that? |
| 01:44.24 | mgeary | cause pfft. I already had xpdf (self-compiled), but it didn't give me pdf2pbm because i didn't have netpbm installed |
| 01:44.35 | mgeary | but i don't want to have 2 xpdfs on my system :/ |
| 01:44.43 | mgeary | so i'm just gonna stick with imagemagick for the time being |
| 01:44.56 | mgeary | but here's some more karma to try to plug that karma leak you seem to have |
| 01:45.00 | mgeary | ~thebigdog++ |
| 01:45.19 | thebigdog | well thanks |
| 01:45.20 | mgeary | ~karma thebigdog |
| 01:45.20 | ibot | thebigdog has karma of 18 |
| 01:45.24 | thebigdog | that is might nice of you |
| 01:45.51 | thebigdog | course if you would just use macports instead of littering your mac with all the other crap |
| 01:45.58 | thebigdog | then you would be uber l33t |
| 01:45.59 | mgeary | bah |
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| 03:20.32 | josephscott | $chuck-fact |
| 03:20.32 | raifbot | If you have five dollars and Chuck Norris has five dollars, Chuck Norris has more money than you. |
| 03:28.38 | josephscott | beandog lives! http://wonkabar.org/2011/01/14/getting-back-online/ |
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| 03:55.11 | josephscott | $rlart |
| 03:55.11 | raifbot | slaps unum upside and over the head with one freakishly huge killer whale named hugh. |
| 03:56.45 | influx | herp |
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| 15:13.41 | herlo | Good News! It's Friday!! |
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| 15:35.23 | mindjuju1 | yeah for friday |
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| 15:50.08 | TuxToaster | ~friday |
| 15:50.08 | ibot | ! ! ! F R I D A Y ! ! ! |
| 15:50.47 | josephscott | going to be a long friday :-( |
| 15:51.04 | mindjuju1 | why? |
| 15:51.41 | josephscott | was just informed there was much to do today, had to switch priorities |
| 15:51.49 | mindjuju1 | ah |
| 15:52.27 | josephscott | $8ball will I actually get this all done today? |
| 15:52.28 | raifbot | josephscott - Without a doubt. |
| 15:52.35 | josephscott | thanks for the support |
| 15:54.04 | TuxToaster | :-) |
| 15:55.02 | carmony | hey mindjuju1 still need to talk? |
| 15:56.01 | mindjuju1 | yeah |
| 15:56.05 | mindjuju1 | pm |
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| 16:45.17 | josephscott | carmony: interesting change at web2project |
| 16:45.41 | carmony | josephscott: I think you'll see a trend of people shifting away from GPLv2 |
| 16:45.52 | josephscott | can't say that would hurt my feelings |
| 16:46.14 | josephscott | as long as the shift is towards more open licenses (BSD/X11/MIT) |
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| 16:48.26 | carmony | I agree |
| 16:49.46 | josephscott | If I share source code for raifbot it will be under BSD/X11/MIT style license |
| 16:50.07 | carmony | My default is MIT now :P |
| 16:50.12 | josephscott | yep |
| 16:52.27 | mindjuju1 | ~carmony++ |
| 16:53.01 | carmony | :) |
| 16:53.45 | josephscott | aside from awesome tech, no big surprise OS X went with (free|net|open)BSD guts |
| 16:54.30 | mindjuju1 | http://makezine.com/ |
| 16:54.44 | josephscott | $chuck-fact |
| 16:54.44 | raifbot | Outer space exists because it's afraid to be on the same planet with Chuck Norris. |
| 16:56.03 | mindjuju1 | oh man, this is CRAZY - http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/10/weekend_project_ultimate_fog_chille_1.html |
| 16:57.52 | josephscott | mindjuju1: I don't want to get colder, I want to get warmer :-) |
| 16:58.01 | mindjuju1 | :) |
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| 17:08.56 | carmony | that is cool! |
| 17:08.58 | carmony | I want to make one |
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| 18:01.38 | TuxToaster | $lart Lasso |
| 18:01.38 | raifbot | tries to shut Lasso up. |
| 18:01.45 | TuxToaster | nah, not violent enough. |
| 18:01.46 | TuxToaster | $lart Lasso |
| 18:01.46 | raifbot | executes killall -KILL Lasso. |
| 18:01.51 | TuxToaster | MUCH better. |
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| 18:30.00 | mindjuju1 | no FREAKIN' way |
| 18:30.26 | josephscott | way |
| 18:30.32 | wps | freakin |
| 18:30.36 | DexterTheDragon | no |
| 18:30.51 | mindjuju1 | USDA says that on average, a family of four |
| 18:31.01 | mindjuju1 | grocery bill is at least $570 |
| 18:31.02 | josephscott | dude |
| 18:31.08 | mindjuju1 | http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/Publications/FoodPlans/2008/CostofFoodFeb08.pdf |
| 18:31.11 | josephscott | per month I assume |
| 18:31.16 | mindjuju1 | and that's the "thrifty" plan |
| 18:31.25 | mindjuju1 | what are these guys eating, lobster? |
| 18:31.46 | mindjuju1 | Porterhouse steaks? |
| 18:31.57 | mindjuju1 | oh, and this is back in 2k8 |
| 18:32.01 | josephscott | I guess it depends on exactly what you consider in the grocery bill |
| 18:32.06 | josephscott | food storage purchases? |
| 18:32.42 | josephscott | diapers? |
| 18:33.17 | mindjuju1 | i'll have to research that |
| 18:33.33 | mindjuju1 | but was looking at our budget and wanted to see what was "normal" |
| 18:33.48 | josephscott | and other things play into it, for instance we have friends over for dinner once or twice a month, are those costs in there? |
| 18:34.06 | mindjuju1 | i'd say diapers no, party dinners, yes |
| 18:34.35 | DexterTheDragon | mindjuju1: I average about $200 a month for food, and thats just me |
| 18:34.35 | josephscott | for a family of 4, $570 is in the ball part I'd day. what exactly you count plays a big part of that though |
| 18:34.57 | mindjuju1 | wow |
| 18:35.04 | mindjuju1 | i guess we're pretty frugal |
| 18:35.13 | mindjuju1 | we're at just over $200 for family of 3 |
| 18:35.22 | mindjuju1 | but that's JUST eats |
| 18:35.28 | josephscott | I doubt everyone is counting the same |
| 18:35.39 | mindjuju1 | yeah, that's got to include the mortgage, food, etc |
| 18:35.43 | mindjuju1 | brb |
| 18:35.49 | josephscott | what do have for breakfast, one rasin? |
| 18:36.24 | DexterTheDragon | mine is just groceries and restaurants |
| 18:37.15 | josephscott | we buy things like a flat of peanut butter as part of groceries, not every month obviously, but that adds up |
| 18:43.57 | mindjuju1 | @josephscott, we have 4 eggs and toast for everybody |
| 18:44.07 | mindjuju1 | we splurge and have the nice simply orange, OJ |
| 18:44.18 | unum | we are well over $200 a month on food |
| 18:44.22 | mindjuju1 | but we do have raisins for snacks |
| 18:44.28 | mindjuju1 | unum, how many in your family? |
| 18:44.34 | unum | mindjuju1: 3 |
| 18:44.39 | josephscott | cereal, breakfast of champions :-) |
| 18:44.53 | unum | I've only recently started eating breakfast |
| 18:44.59 | unum | as in starting monday.... |
| 18:45.03 | unum | my wife insists |
| 18:45.22 | unum | though I tend to make up for not eating breakfast with a very large lunch |
| 18:46.43 | mindjuju1 | i'm going to have to do some math |
| 18:47.24 | josephscott | our youngest, 17 months, I know increases some of the costs that we count under groceries |
| 18:47.54 | unum | my wife tries to put diapers and wipes in a different catagory |
| 18:49.43 | mindjuju1 | ok, in asking for clarification from my wife, i see that we're not at 2, we're at 4 |
| 18:49.45 | mindjuju1 | so 400 a month |
| 18:49.57 | mindjuju1 | still though, 570 sounds like a lot |
| 18:50.03 | josephscott | that sounds more reasonable |
| 18:50.16 | josephscott | why? |
| 18:50.25 | josephscott | 400 / 3 = 133.33 |
| 18:50.32 | mindjuju1 | tiff handles all budget and money appropriation, i handle getting more money |
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| 18:50.35 | josephscott | 400 + 133.33 = 533.33 |
| 18:50.54 | mindjuju1 | ah, true |
| 18:50.58 | josephscott | not sure why an extra 36.67 makes it "a lot" |
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| 18:51.29 | mindjuju1 | it doesn't, didn't see it that way |
| 18:53.35 | thebigdog | our family of 5 we average between $600 - $800 |
| 18:53.41 | mindjuju1 | looks like the most recent one for Nov 2010 shows an increase of $10 |
| 18:53.42 | mindjuju1 | http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/Publications/FoodPlans/2010/CostofFoodNov10.pdf |
| 18:54.32 | thebigdog | based on that link we are about right |
| 18:54.46 | thebigdog | my wife is pretty good on the sales and coupons |
| 18:55.04 | josephscott | my wife takes care of all the grocery shopping, so hard for me to pin down exactly what our grocery bill is |
| 18:55.36 | josephscott | I can say that my wife's weekly budget for managing household items (groceries is the biggest part of that) is $160 |
| 18:55.49 | mindjuju1 | but that includes diapers, doesn't it? |
| 18:55.58 | josephscott | yep |
| 18:56.10 | josephscott | and we are a family of 5 |
| 18:56.35 | mindjuju1 | i hate diapers, i had a dream once where tiff was using dollar bills as diapers |
| 18:56.45 | josephscott | hah! |
| 18:56.56 | jsmith | mindjuju1: That might be cheaper! |
| 18:57.03 | mindjuju1 | it's practically that painful when you have the newborn diapers |
| 18:57.27 | unum | 160 is really good |
| 18:57.29 | josephscott | call it motivation for training them out of diapers :-) |
| 18:57.35 | mindjuju1 | yeah, no doubt |
| 18:58.30 | unum | my wife tries to buy fresh healthy stuff, which makes it a little bit more than it could be |
| 18:58.30 | josephscott | I wonder if they list the grocery purchases involved in http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/Publications/FoodPlans/2010/CostofFoodNov10.pdf |
| 18:58.35 | unum | but it does taste good |
| 18:58.40 | josephscott | I'd be curious if you could actually go shop it |
| 18:59.05 | josephscott | yeah, my wife is all over the sales and such, helps keep the costs down |
| 19:02.32 | josephscott | $8ball is $160/week on household/grocery items reasonable? |
| 19:02.32 | raifbot | josephscott - Reply hazy, try again. |
| 19:02.38 | josephscott | weak |
| 19:03.08 | TuxToaster | lol |
| 19:03.18 | jsmith | Too funny |
| 19:03.30 | TuxToaster | I don't think we even spend that much on ours |
| 19:03.37 | TuxToaster | though I'm sure over time it averages to about that |
| 19:04.18 | josephscott | $8ball is $160/week on household/grocery items reasonable? |
| 19:04.18 | raifbot | josephscott - It is decidedly so. |
| 19:04.27 | mindjuju1 | they do, i'll see if i can find it again |
| 19:04.30 | josephscott | better, still weak, but better |
| 19:04.38 | TuxToaster | josephscott: he just needed some confirmation :P |
| 19:06.52 | mindjuju1 | @josephscott, here is the one for 2k7 |
| 19:07.00 | mindjuju1 | http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/Publications/FoodPlans/MiscPubs/FoodPlans2007AdminReport.pdf |
| 19:07.11 | mindjuju1 | so, it should answer the question, what does it include exactly |
| 19:07.16 | mindjuju1 | wasn't able to find one for 2k10 |
| 19:08.19 | mindjuju1 | @josephscott, here is where i got the reports for the month |
| 19:08.20 | mindjuju1 | http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/USDAFoodCost-Home.htm |
| 19:08.49 | mindjuju1 | i'm not seeing a breakdown after 2k7 |
| 19:08.53 | mindjuju1 | so that may be the most current |
| 19:09.27 | josephscott | interesting. since this is for a national average, I wonder how close it is to Utah numbers |
| 19:09.42 | josephscott | and also how those numbers might change for different seasons |
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| 19:11.02 | josephscott | oops http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/loaded-gun-slips-past-tsa-screeners/story?id=12412458 |
| 19:12.49 | ninnypants | heh I heard about that |
| 19:13.01 | ninnypants | thought it happened this year though |
| 19:14.27 | ninnypants | wait the people who let a gun on a plane didn't get fired? |
| 19:14.58 | mindjuju1 | no, they were prolly promoted to senior screener |
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| 19:15.24 | josephscott | "We conducted an immediate investigation and remedial training was provided to the security officers involved," the statement said. |
| 19:15.33 | ninnypants | heh I'm glad I don't fly. Not that it's really all that dangerous |
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| 20:01.54 | carmony | http://screencast.com/t/TTBkcUevatgh #flashBlocked |
| 20:07.07 | josephscott | good example of why not using $_SESSION is actually less work in the end - http://www.binarysludge.com/2011/01/13/redundant-and-fault-tolerant-php-session-storage/ |
| 20:07.36 | josephscott | $lart $_SESSION |
| 20:07.37 | raifbot | burns $_SESSION to a crisp with a laser. |
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| 21:02.01 | *** join/#uphpu phaedryx (~phaedryx@173-8-92-49-utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 21:03.06 | josephscott | thank you patent office http://www.google.com/patents?id=hhYJAAAAEBAJ&printsec=claims&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false |
| 21:03.11 | *** part/#uphpu phaedryx (~phaedryx@173-8-92-49-utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 21:03.22 | TuxToaster | LOL |
| 21:03.27 | TuxToaster | yeah I saw that this morning |
| 21:09.55 | TuxToaster | josephscott: I'm pretty sure Ally has increased their marketing recently... I'd maybe heard of them once in passing on a radio ad, and this week I've seen their ad almost daily. :P |
| 21:10.17 | josephscott | dangers of texting in the mall http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mg11glsBW4Y&feature=player_embedded#! |
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| 21:12.27 | TuxToaster | lol. Just saw that one on twitter too. |
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| 21:28.03 | TuxToaster | this is awesome. Inbound API that automatically resends their request to us every 45 seconds if they don't get the response they expect. |
| 21:28.42 | TuxToaster | so, instead of one e-mail letting us know that there was a problem processing the request, there is a pile. |
| 21:29.19 | TuxToaster | (plus all of the other requests queue up and wait for the first one to go through before they send the rest). |
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| 21:44.17 | TuxToaster | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HWhywZT9I0 |
| 21:44.28 | TuxToaster | watch it all the way through. |
| 21:44.31 | TuxToaster | it's worth it. |
| 21:44.48 | mindjuju1 | that's china |
| 21:44.57 | carmony | lol, thats awesome |
| 21:47.22 | TuxToaster | heh, yup |
| 21:47.42 | TuxToaster | I figure it must have been an interesting sight from the other side, watching him going down the elevator on top of the car |
| 21:49.11 | *** join/#uphpu sheri (~sheri@199.sub-75-204-63.myvzw.com) |
| 21:50.52 | mindjuju1 | taser fail - http://www.youtube.com/user/failblog?blend=1&ob=4 |
| 21:56.11 | TuxToaster | mindjuju1: http://failblog.org/2011/01/14/epic-fail-video-snow-plow-parking-deck-fail/ |
| 21:56.22 | TuxToaster | just had to go and paste a fail. lol |
| 21:57.02 | mindjuju1 | oh wow |
| 21:57.30 | mindjuju1 | so do you know where this happened? |
| 21:57.45 | TuxToaster | nope |
| 21:58.07 | herlo | Girl Falls In Fountain While Texting â http://j.mp/f1x5HQ |
| 21:58.09 | mindjuju1 | oh, you posted to chan, i thought you meant you posted to fail |
| 21:58.24 | TuxToaster | ah, hehe, nope. |
| 21:58.39 | TuxToaster | unfortunately most of the stuff I've sent to them hasn't shown up. |
| 21:58.49 | TuxToaster | one actually did and made it into their FAILbook |
| 21:59.25 | TuxToaster | (a halloween costume package that literally said "Spanish Translation goes here" or something like that. Found it at Walmart) |
| 22:00.22 | herlo | TuxToaster: yeah, I sent them a parking meter which read 'FAIL' but they didn't love it I guess |
| 22:01.04 | TuxToaster | ah, you'd think of all things they'd love that. |
| 22:01.08 | herlo | well, a picture of a parking meter. Not the actual meter |
| 22:01.11 | herlo | :P |
| 22:01.16 | TuxToaster | lol |
| 22:01.34 | herlo | yay! I can catch up on V tonight on my flight home |
| 22:01.46 | TuxToaster | I tried to get a recording of a Tinkerbell toy I saw a few weeks ago that when you pushed the button it had Woody's voice from Toy Story |
| 22:01.56 | herlo | nice |
| 22:02.20 | herlo | well, I'm off to the airport, see you tomorrow mindjuju1 |
| 22:02.26 | herlo | ttyl gang! |
| 22:02.29 | TuxToaster | safe flight! |
| 22:02.58 | jsmith | herlo: Have a safe and exciting trip! |
| 22:16.46 | mindjuju1 | i love this one |
| 22:16.48 | mindjuju1 | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Su1ozG3WPUM |
| 22:17.21 | mindjuju1 | cant stop catching it :) |
| 22:19.33 | mindjuju1 | wow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ol9pIm6Dyw |
| 22:19.57 | TuxToaster | lol. don't bother jumping, just knock them out of the way |
| 22:20.06 | mindjuju1 | yup |
| 22:26.20 | josephscott | google should just come out and say that they hate H.264 so much they'd rather see flash dominate video than to support H.264 - http://blog.chromium.org/2011/01/more-about-chrome-html-video-codec.html |
| 22:27.44 | TuxToaster | +1 |
| 22:28.48 | TuxToaster | though if it weren't for the licensing requirements, they'd probably back H.264 |
| 22:28.57 | josephscott | doubtful |
| 22:29.27 | TuxToaster | well, given the status quo I don't think they would |
| 22:29.27 | josephscott | webm is a Google item, in part because they own the patents for it |
| 22:29.47 | TuxToaster | but had it came out originally as a free and open codec they may have. |
| 22:29.54 | josephscott | but at the same time refuse to indemnify users from possible patent infringement |
| 22:30.14 | TuxToaster | but yeah, they still would probably be doing their own rolled version of it in that case or would have went with developing something like WebM anyways |
| 22:30.26 | josephscott | perhaps, but that didn't stop several video sites from licensing H.264 and using it successuflly |
| 22:30.28 | josephscott | fully |
| 22:30.34 | mindjuju1 | <cough>flash video</cough> |
| 22:30.48 | TuxToaster | mindjuju1: need to do something about that cough |
| 22:30.51 | TuxToaster | sounds nasty |
| 22:30.54 | josephscott | mindjuju1: I suspect most video delivered over flash is H.264 encoded |
| 22:31.11 | TuxToaster | very likely now. |
| 22:31.12 | josephscott | there is no such thing as "flash video", flash is just the player |
| 22:31.36 | mindjuju1 | flv ? |
| 22:31.38 | TuxToaster | well you have .flv |
| 22:31.50 | TuxToaster | but it still usually is encoded by some codec |
| 22:31.56 | josephscott | so if you already have H.264 licenses and deliver video via, web: flash, mobile: h.264, what is your motivation to re-encode everything into webm? |
| 22:31.56 | mindjuju1 | yeah |
| 22:31.59 | TuxToaster | be that H.264, MOV, AVI, etc |
| 22:32.01 | mindjuju1 | vp6 or what ever |
| 22:34.21 | josephscott | for instance, why would Netflix stop using H.264 at this point? |
| 22:34.53 | josephscott | what this move by Google does in ensure that folks like Netflix will continue to use silverlight instead of <video> |
| 22:35.53 | mindjuju1 | is there security / DRM in video? |
| 22:36.04 | mindjuju1 | seems like we talked about this before, and there isn't anything, even on the map |
| 22:36.07 | josephscott | same goes for Hulu |
| 22:36.32 | josephscott | we are talking about codecs at this point, DRM is usually implemented in the player |
| 22:36.37 | fungus | Netflix uses silverlight for DRM reasons, not codec reasons. |
| 22:36.48 | mindjuju1 | concur w/ fungus |
| 22:37.07 | josephscott | so suppose that <video> supported all of the DRM companies wanted |
| 22:37.20 | TuxToaster | yup yup. Which sucks for performance... Silverlight is cool but I've had the hardest time playing Netflix on my laptop because after a bit it starts maxing out CPU |
| 22:37.27 | josephscott | you see them re-encoding everything into webm? instead of just using the H.264 they already have? |
| 22:37.43 | fungus | However I agree with Google's intentions of staying away from h.264 for reasons of license uncertainty. |
| 22:37.58 | josephscott | fungus: have you read the webm license agreement? |
| 22:38.01 | fungus | But their actions have negative effects that are not worth their goals |
| 22:38.12 | mindjuju1 | oh, i see your point on player v codec |
| 22:38.20 | josephscott | it seems clear that they know webm may be infringing on other patents |
| 22:38.26 | fungus | No I haven't, is WebM ugly too? |
| 22:38.57 | josephscott | read the patent grants - http://www.webmproject.org/license/additional/ |
| 22:39.13 | fungus | Based on the current state of software patents in the US, it is next to impossible to guarantee there will be no patent infringement at all. |
| 22:39.19 | josephscott | the license is open http://www.webmproject.org/license/software/ |
| 22:39.54 | josephscott | yep, and if that happens instead of indemnifying users, they simply remove all patent rights that they granted, making webm completely unusable |
| 22:40.11 | TuxToaster | oh, look... I was selected as a winner in the PEPSI NIGERIA ONLINE CONTEST that I didn't enter. *deleted* |
| 22:40.35 | josephscott | "alleging that this implementation of VP8 or any code incorporated within this implementation of VP8 constitutes direct or contributory patent infringement, or inducement of patent infringement, then any patent rights granted to you under this License for this implementation of VP8 shall terminate as of the date such litigation is filed." |
| 22:40.46 | fungus | josephscott, however even h.264 carries the same risk of patent infringement. |
| 22:40.58 | fungus | *all* software carries that risk. |
| 22:41.02 | josephscott | agreed, but at that point it is MPEG's problem |
| 22:41.38 | josephscott | Google could have decided to shoulder that issue, but opted not to |
| 22:42.46 | fungus | That's an interesting point, but the time bomb built into the h.264 license is quite dangerous. |
| 22:43.01 | josephscott | perhaps, but the market so far doesn't seem to think so |
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| 22:43.10 | fungus | It's like selling drugs, we get it for free now, but not necessarily in the future. |
| 22:43.24 | josephscott | otherwise you'd have more video services moving away from it, yet so far that doesn't appear to be the case |
| 22:43.30 | josephscott | instead, they are using it more |
| 22:43.48 | fungus | I disagree, the reason for the widespread adoption is the already widespread support. |
| 22:44.00 | fungus | The codec support came first, long before the adoption |
| 22:44.17 | josephscott | I'm reasonably certain that Netflix and Hulu had legal go over the agreements on H.264 before investing millions in using it |
| 22:44.19 | MorrisCox | The more well known something is, the more likely it is to be used. |
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| 22:45.01 | fungus | josephscott, agreed, but they already have to pay for the licenses now. |
| 22:45.06 | fungus | There is no time bomb for them |
| 22:45.20 | josephscott | so who is left with a time bomb then? |
| 22:45.41 | fungus | Everyone who is relying on the free web distribution licenses now |
| 22:45.43 | josephscott | it isn't end users |
| 22:45.45 | fungus | like YouTube |
| 22:45.54 | fungus | and Vimeo, etc |
| 22:46.09 | josephscott | you think YouTube is using unlicensed h.264? |
| 22:46.11 | fungus | Pretty much any web distributor of videos that distribute for free |
| 22:46.53 | fungus | MPEG-LA grants a free license to anyone that distributes on the web for free. However this has an expiration |
| 22:47.23 | fungus | Netflix charges for their video, so they must pay for a license, and can't use the free one. |
| 22:47.53 | josephscott | so would the concern be folks who are doing it for free will stop doing it for free at some point in the future? |
| 22:48.11 | josephscott | and if that was a big issue, why would the youtubes of the world pick h.264 in the first place? |
| 22:48.26 | fungus | The concern would be that the expiration comes, and MPEG-LA says pay up or stop using H.264 |
| 22:48.43 | josephscott | there is no expiration on the free option - http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-20014864-264.html |
| 22:49.03 | fungus | The YouTubes of the world will just pay up, small risk. It's your average schmoe, or small business that will suffer. |
| 22:49.09 | *** join/#uphpu sheri_ (~sheri@99.sub-75-224-100.myvzw.com) |
| 22:49.14 | josephscott | still doesn't answer the question though, if that was a concern and there was a limit, why would youtubes of the world use it? |
| 22:49.50 | josephscott | only if they charge for the video, again, there is no limit on free video - http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-20014864-264.html |
| 22:49.57 | josephscott | no time bomb on free video |
| 22:50.10 | fungus | I missed the news about the expiration removal. |
| 22:51.01 | josephscott | which leaves us with Google propping up Flash for video, likely for the next several years :-( |
| 22:51.53 | fungus | hmm, without the expiration, everything has changed. |
| 22:52.46 | josephscott | hence my feelings about today's post from google: |
| 22:52.47 | josephscott | google should just come out and say that they hate H.264 so much they'd rather see flash dominate video than to support H.264 - http://blog.chromium.org/2011/01/more-about-chrome-html-video-codec.html |
| 22:54.22 | fungus | That is a valid argument. |
| 22:54.31 | fungus | The client side licensing requirements |
| 22:54.34 | fungus | That isn't free |
| 22:54.35 | josephscott | what is sad is, this isn't even a matter of adding support for h.264, they are actively removing support for something that were already using |
| 22:54.51 | fungus | It's based on the principle of the matter for them. |
| 22:55.22 | josephscott | oh, you mean the free for life client side licensing? http://www.mpegla.com/Lists/MPEG%20LA%20News%20List/Attachments/231/n-10-08-26.pdf |
| 22:55.22 | wps | I wan't two matches in a preg_match_all() |
| 22:55.29 | wps | is that not possible? |
| 22:55.48 | TuxToaster | wps: two matches? |
| 22:55.51 | fungus | They want to keep independent browser writers in the "game" so to speak. |
| 22:56.07 | TuxToaster | as in submatches? or to get more than one instance of the match? |
| 22:56.17 | TuxToaster | it should return an array of arrays |
| 22:56.18 | wps | two sub-matches |
| 22:56.32 | wps | the _all gives me the multiple matches |
| 22:56.39 | wps | but I want two matches within each match |
| 22:56.48 | TuxToaster | wps: should work as long as you're grouping |
| 22:56.55 | TuxToaster | mind pasting your regex? |
| 22:56.59 | wps | sure |
| 22:57.05 | wps | let me grab it |
| 22:57.13 | fungus | josephscott, that news release is about the encoders, the web streamers, not the clients. |
| 22:57.22 | wps | preg_match_all('/<snippet\sid="([^\/]+)"\s([^\/]+)\/>/', stripslashes($content), $snippets); |
| 22:57.38 | fungus | Microsoft, Opera, and Apple had to pay for their client licenses in the browser |
| 22:58.11 | josephscott | ok |
| 22:58.26 | TuxToaster | wps: ok. So you're looking to get an array where each item is an array containing [1] the snippet ID and [2] the content, right? |
| 22:58.46 | wps | [2] would be the other attributes in that element, but yes |
| 22:59.04 | TuxToaster | ok yeah, looks right to me. |
| 22:59.40 | wps | <snippet id="cowboys" this="that" and="theother" /> |
| 22:59.40 | wps | [1] = "cowboys" |
| 22:59.40 | wps | [2] = "this="that" and="theother"" |
| 22:59.53 | TuxToaster | right |
| 22:59.55 | wps | there's an example of what I'm matching against and what I want to get |
| 23:00.09 | TuxToaster | but what are you getting instead? |
| 23:00.19 | wps | so it looks right to you? |
| 23:00.27 | josephscott | fungus: apparently that was such a minimal barrier that Microsoft was willing to create a firefox plugin to support h.264 |
| 23:00.27 | wps | dangâ¦Â wonder why it isn't working |
| 23:00.51 | TuxToaster | wps: yeah, testing it now for fun, but the logic looks sound |
| 23:00.53 | fungus | Right, but Google is taking the issue on principle, not the money itself. |
| 23:01.10 | fungus | They are doing it for the little guy supposedly. |
| 23:01.21 | josephscott | so on principle they'll stop shipping chrome with the flash plugin right? |
| 23:01.37 | wps | google is a hypocritical sack of crap |
| 23:01.48 | fungus | hehe. agreed. |
| 23:02.06 | josephscott | don't hold back wps, let us know how you feel :-) |
| 23:02.09 | wps | there has to be a google exec sleeping with someone at adobe |
| 23:02.10 | fungus | If they truly wanted to stand on their high horse, they should have done it 10 years ago |
| 23:02.39 | fungus | But now it's too late. h.264 is everywhere. entrenched. They should just give up |
| 23:03.05 | josephscott | fungus: this is a good break down of the patent/cost situation - http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/h264-patents-how-much-do-they-really-cost/2122 |
| 23:04.07 | josephscott | yeah, want to watch you mobile phone battery life disappear before your eyes, playback video with no hardware support, implement the codec (webm) completely in software |
| 23:04.37 | josephscott | which I believe is the only mobile option right now, I haven't seen any chips out for webm decoding |
| 23:04.42 | josephscott | unlike h.264 |
| 23:05.34 | fungus | josephscott, in terms of cost, it's still high for some organizations, and it can always go up in the future. It's a bad thing for something that is a "web standard" |
| 23:06.01 | josephscott | agreed, it can go up, limited to 10% at each renewal |
| 23:06.16 | fungus | I agree with the principle that Google is trying to purvey, but it's too late. |
| 23:06.32 | josephscott | hey, in perfect world we wouldn't have most software patents, but for most of us (Google excluded) we have to play in the real world |
| 23:06.49 | josephscott | fungus: what principle would that be? |
| 23:06.59 | fungus | I don't necessarily believe their stated principles are wholly unselfish, but they are there. |
| 23:07.25 | fungus | The principle that web standards should be free and open for anyone to develop with. |
| 23:07.26 | josephscott | their claim was "in the name of being open", which is completely bogus |
| 23:07.48 | josephscott | fungus: that can't be the actual reason, other wise they wouldn't include flash as well |
| 23:07.52 | josephscott | so that's out |
| 23:08.01 | TuxToaster | wps: sorry phone call. I did spot an issue actually |
| 23:08.04 | josephscott | so what does that leave us with? |
| 23:08.11 | wps | yeah? |
| 23:08.23 | TuxToaster | yeah the first one is matching the closing quote |
| 23:08.47 | wps | ah! |
| 23:08.52 | wps | great catch! |
| 23:08.53 | wps | thanks |
| 23:08.55 | TuxToaster | wps: try sid="([^\/]+?)" |
| 23:09.03 | TuxToaster | the ? will make it less greedy :-) |
| 23:09.39 | fungus | josephscott, like I said, they are quite selfishly motivated, but their *stated* principles are valid. |
| 23:09.50 | TuxToaster | ... and pain, apparently. :-P |
| 23:09.56 | josephscott | their stated principles are lies on their face |
| 23:10.08 | josephscott | which makes them void |
| 23:10.15 | fungus | possibly, but I still believe in what they said. |
| 23:10.24 | fungus | Not Google, just the statements. |
| 23:10.30 | josephscott | agreed, I like the principle |
| 23:10.54 | josephscott | and if I got to play in the imaginary world the Google lives in, I might have even believed their statement |
| 23:11.02 | fungus | But you add in the lies, and already entrenched coded of h.264, and it's too little, too late. |
| 23:11.18 | josephscott | it's even worse than too little to late though |
| 23:11.30 | josephscott | webm is one small set of patents owned by Google |
| 23:11.56 | josephscott | h.264 is a held by a software patent pool, made up of dozen of companies and hundreds of patents |
| 23:11.57 | fungus | Right, and they are granted to everyone for any purpose, forever. That was done right. |
| 23:12.22 | josephscott | as a business, I'd face less risk supporting h.264 than webm |
| 23:12.31 | wps | TuxToaster, the ? makes it less greedy, but don't I need to change my anything-but from a slash to a quote? |
| 23:12.33 | wps | perhaps this? |
| 23:12.33 | wps | sid="([^\/]+?)" |
| 23:12.35 | wps | oops |
| 23:12.38 | wps | sid="([^"]+?)" |
| 23:13.10 | wps | sid="([^\"]+?)" |
| 23:13.12 | josephscott | oh, and the patents span 44 countries |
| 23:13.16 | wps | perhaps |
| 23:13.54 | TuxToaster | wps: it's already matching everything between the quotes that are outside of the group () |
| 23:14.47 | TuxToaster | hmm. |
| 23:14.53 | wps | should I just use a * then instead of anything-but-a-slash? |
| 23:15.03 | fungus | that's another reason why h.264 turns me off so bad. I detest software patents. The shear quantity of those really turn me off. |
| 23:15.13 | fungus | But that's the RMS side of me. |
| 23:15.21 | TuxToaster | wps: depends on if you want it to avoid slashes :-) |
| 23:15.31 | fungus | The other side says, I really like low powered, hardware accelerated video on my phone. |
| 23:15.59 | josephscott | dueling fungi :-) |
| 23:16.11 | wps | what were you saying was the problem then when you said it was matching all the way to the last quote? |
| 23:16.13 | fungus | hehe, yup. |
| 23:16.16 | TuxToaster | looks like .+? would work just as well |
| 23:17.03 | TuxToaster | wps: what it was doing was matching [1] id="cowboys" this="that [2] and="theother" |
| 23:17.23 | TuxToaster | because without the ? it becomes greedy and keeps going until it hits the last " that will match |
| 23:17.35 | TuxToaster | by adding the ? it will stop at the first " that matches instead |
| 23:17.54 | TuxToaster | and you get [1] cowboys [2] this="that" and="theother" |
| 23:18.46 | TuxToaster | but looks like if id is "cowboys/" it will break the match |
| 23:19.11 | TuxToaster | so you could do id="(.+?)" to match any character in that first set of quotes |
| 23:19.24 | wps | kâ¦Â I feed my example in directly and it's working now |
| 23:19.49 | wps | for some reason it's not working with my production content, but it's now an issue of determining what's different between my cowboy example and the production content |
| 23:19.51 | wps | thank you, TuxToaster |
| 23:20.24 | TuxToaster | wps: best guess there could be some weird spacing or line breaks or something, those are always fun. |
| 23:20.27 | TuxToaster | welcome :-) |
| 23:22.08 | TuxToaster | wps: one more idea that might help: create yourself a simple page somewhere that just takes a couple of post fields and does the regex on them, then you can copy and paste your content and patterns into the form to test the patterns. Makes troubleshooting it a lot easier. |
| 23:22.26 | wps | thansk |
| 23:22.52 | fungus | http://regexpal.com/ |
| 23:22.55 | wps | got it! |
| 23:23.16 | TuxToaster | ... or just use a prebuilt one. lol |
| 23:23.42 | TuxToaster | ah, that one is in JS. |
| 23:23.44 | TuxToaster | hehe. |
| 23:23.51 | josephscott | http://regexpal.com/ FTW! |
| 23:24.00 | TuxToaster | works just as well. I just built my own in PHP so that I knew it was the same engine. |
| 23:24.40 | fungus | http://www.regextester.com/ |
| 23:24.47 | fungus | uglier, but engine specific |
| 23:26.25 | TuxToaster | I use something like this: http://pastie.org/1462084 |
| 23:26.47 | TuxToaster | simple but lets me tweak things when needed. |
| 23:27.19 | TuxToaster | plus the actual page I use is built into a dashboard so I don't have to go looking for where I saved the bookmark. hehe |
| 23:31.45 | wps | what's the most efficient way to turn a list of attributes into an array? |
| 23:31.51 | wps | this⦠|
| 23:31.52 | wps | a="b" c="d" e="f" |
| 23:31.56 | wps | â¦into this⦠|
| 23:32.05 | wps | array |
| 23:32.05 | wps | ( |
| 23:32.05 | wps | [a] => "b" |
| 23:32.05 | wps | [c] => "d" |
| 23:32.06 | wps | [e] => "f" |
| 23:32.06 | wps | ) |
| 23:32.23 | josephscott | what type is it in currently, an object? |
| 23:32.30 | wps | a string |
| 23:32.48 | wps | explode on the spaces and then regex the values out of from between the quotes? |
| 23:33.05 | josephscott | hmmm |
| 23:33.36 | TuxToaster | well if you know the string is for sure like a="b" c="d" e="f" you should be able to handle that in another regex without needing to explode |
| 23:33.49 | wps | the string can have any number of attributes |
| 23:34.18 | josephscott | preg_split ? |
| 23:34.49 | TuxToaster | preg_match_all('/(\w+?)\="(.+?)"/, $string, $attributes); |
| 23:34.50 | TuxToaster | I think |
| 23:34.54 | TuxToaster | (testing it now) |
| 23:36.51 | TuxToaster | preg_match_all('/(\w+?)\="(.+?)"/', $string, $attributes, PREG_SET_ORDER); |
| 23:37.26 | TuxToaster | would give you an array of arrays, each item would be an array with [1] attribute name and [2] value |
| 23:37.45 | TuxToaster | so for a string of: this="that" and="theother" |
| 23:38.02 | TuxToaster | you'd get [0] [1] this [2] that |
| 23:38.10 | TuxToaster | [1] [1] and [2] theother |
| 23:38.47 | TuxToaster | (the PREG_SET_ORDER causes the items to order like this, without it you'd get the names in one array and the values in a separate one) |
| 23:40.23 | wps | thanks, TuxToaster |
| 23:40.25 | wps | this is perfect |
| 23:40.45 | TuxToaster | awesome :-) |
| 23:42.56 | wps | I then ran $attributes through a foreach to collapse it into this: |
| 23:42.57 | wps | Array |
| 23:42.57 | wps | ( |
| 23:42.57 | wps | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:42.57 | wps | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:42.58 | wps | ) |
| 23:43.13 | TuxToaster | very nice |
| 23:43.24 | wps | that'd be nice if preg_match_all had a flag to do that for you |
| 23:43.40 | TuxToaster | though I'll admit I'm scared to know what kind of data you're working with deals with pony toads and grape swords. :P |
| 23:44.17 | wps | it's top secret |
| 23:44.27 | TuxToaster | yeah it would. If nothing else it'd be a very handy function to be able to pass a list of attributes and return an assoc array like that. |
| 23:44.37 | wps | indeed |
| 23:45.10 | josephscott | $chuck-fact |
| 23:45.10 | raifbot | Jack was nimble, Jack was quick, but Jack still couldn't dodge Chuck Norris' roundhouse kick. |
| 23:45.18 | TuxToaster | lol |
| 23:50.07 | TuxToaster | $8ball could you dodge Chuck Noris' roundhouse kick? |
| 23:50.07 | raifbot | TuxToaster - Don't count on it. |
| 23:50.14 | TuxToaster | well played. |
| 23:51.38 | josephscott | $8ball should I spend the whole weekend quoting The Princess Bride? |
| 23:51.38 | raifbot | josephscott - Yes - definitely. |
| 23:52.23 | TuxToaster | raifbot, you keep giving that answer. I do not think it means what you think it means. |
| 23:53.47 | josephscott | I thought it fitting given the rocky terrain |
| 23:54.05 | TuxToaster | hehe |
| 23:54.20 | *** join/#uphpu cro (~cro@204-228-149-217.ip.xmission.com) |
| 23:55.33 | TuxToaster | dangit josephscott now I've got to watch that this weekend. |
| 23:56.23 | josephscott | I do not suppose you could speed things up |
| 23:56.32 | TuxToaster | and I'm sure that means my 6 year old will come out playing with his pirate sword and tell me "I know something you don't know... I am not left handed!" |
| 23:57.32 | TuxToaster | josephscott: if you're in such a hurry, you could lower a rope or branch or something |
| 23:58.33 | *** join/#uphpu jkr801 (~jkr801@c-67-186-232-131.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |