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| 05:38.14 | mgeary | hey folks. i've got a utf-8/unicode issue... anyone around to discuss? |
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| 15:06.02 | Utah_Dave | herlo: ping |
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| 15:27.43 | supernovia | guten morgen |
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| 16:08.27 | macnewbold | herlo: ping |
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| 16:08.32 | macnewbold | aha |
| 16:08.34 | macnewbold | other chan |
| 16:21.21 | mindjuju | good morning to you supernovia |
| 16:21.34 | supernovia | hey there mindjuju :) how's life treating you? |
| 16:21.58 | mindjuju | not too bad, just finished up my last ethics paper |
| 16:22.13 | mindjuju | can you believe it, i got docked, DOCKED for quoting philosophers |
| 16:22.15 | supernovia | Oh cool |
| 16:22.17 | supernovia | What?? |
| 16:22.20 | mindjuju | course, they weren't in the book |
| 16:22.24 | supernovia | Pff. So? |
| 16:22.31 | mindjuju | yeah, my point exactly |
| 16:23.05 | supernovia | Heaven forbid we should actually extend ourselves beyond the bounds of the course material... |
| 16:24.00 | DexterTheDragon | mindjuju: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reJ7sESNs7A |
| 16:24.04 | mindjuju | i WAS tempted to write on the fact that ALL text in her "book" was in the public domain (as you noted before i took class) and that she could easily just hand out URLs to project gutenberg for us to download for free |
| 16:24.22 | mindjuju | and that her "class notes" for $15 could easily be a download also |
| 16:24.36 | mindjuju | but, i decided not to question her morales until AFTER class |
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| 16:27.44 | supernovia | there you go :) |
| 16:28.14 | supernovia | Which one did you take, btw? the video course? |
| 16:44.32 | mindjuju | yup, video course |
| 16:51.27 | supernovia | that was one of those classes I really didn't like as much |
| 16:51.36 | supernovia | I really _wanted_ to like it too |
| 17:27.43 | SunSparc | Island Galaxy: http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archive/releases/2010/24/image/a/format/xlarge_web/ |
| 17:43.30 | supernovia | beautiful, SunSparc |
| 17:43.44 | SunSparc | Agreed. |
| 17:45.19 | SunSparc | It is mind-numbing to think how many other civilizations there are in our universe. In our own galaxy alone it is incredible, but then to see a picture of so many galaxies all together like that. Wow. |
| 17:46.05 | supernovia | So cool |
| 17:46.46 | supernovia | Oh, speaking of the sky. I need to get out and watch Perseids this week :) |
| 17:46.55 | supernovia | And I'd recommend the same to anyone :) It's a good week for that. |
| 17:47.20 | SunSparc | Yeah, I need to take the kids up the canyon or something. Perhaps Friday night. |
| 17:47.34 | supernovia | yup |
| 17:47.41 | supernovia | I think I'm gonna go night-hiking on Wednesday |
| 17:47.55 | SunSparc | That would be cool. |
| 17:49.51 | SunSparc | mgeary: You will have an amazing view. |
| 17:57.02 | cro | supernovia: when are the Perseids most visible? What time of the night? |
| 17:57.16 | supernovia | I don't know off the top of my head |
| 17:57.59 | SunSparc | cro: http://earthsky.org/astronomy-essentials/earthskys-meteor-shower-guide |
| 17:58.28 | cro | SunSparc: thanks! |
| 17:58.32 | SunSparc | :) |
| 17:59.25 | supernovia | Still, I think I ought to be able to see them pretty well in my hike Wednesday night |
| 18:00.38 | SunSparc | Let me know how that goes. |
| 18:01.52 | supernovia | Yeah, I will |
| 18:02.10 | supernovia | utahcon I am freaking starving |
| 18:02.14 | supernovia | (saw your tweet) |
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| 20:21.42 | mindjuju | hi beandog |
| 20:21.50 | beandog | hey |
| 20:22.11 | mindjuju | how are things? |
| 20:22.50 | mindjuju | that's weird, my salt and pepper shaker have an exp date |
| 20:23.20 | SunSparc | They just want you to buy more. |
| 20:23.21 | SunSparc | :) |
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| 20:23.42 | mindjuju | yeah prolly! |
| 20:27.14 | beandog | mindjuju: busy |
| 20:31.18 | mindjuju | @supernovia ^^ |
| 20:31.33 | supernovia | Hmm, good question :-) |
| 20:31.39 | supernovia | I'd have to ask |
| 20:32.10 | supernovia | I am so ridiculously nervous |
| 20:32.22 | mindjuju | i saw you in the line up thisw morning |
| 20:32.25 | mindjuju | that's awesome |
| 20:33.22 | mindjuju | :) |
| 20:33.52 | supernovia | oh I so don't have public speaking skills |
| 20:34.13 | beandog | mindjuju: a little of both |
| 20:34.15 | supernovia | and I feel intimidated speaking in front of a bunch of people who, no doubt, know a whole lot more than I do on any topic I could possibly cover |
| 20:34.37 | mindjuju | you presented well for the UPHPU meet, though this audience may be a wee bit bigger |
| 20:34.45 | supernovia | UPHPU meet = my friends |
| 20:34.50 | jsmith | supernovia: Doesn't matter -- just act like you know more than they do, and they'll be none the wiser |
| 20:35.16 | supernovia | I'm not very good at hiding my feelings (including nervousness) |
| 20:35.52 | supernovia | and I'm totally freaking out about not having the talk 100% written and rehearsed ten times by now |
| 20:36.04 | supernovia | Yeah mindjuju? I didn't know you lived in China |
| 20:36.05 | mindjuju | when i would go out, I would imagine the Johnny Carson theme song |
| 20:36.06 | supernovia | when was that? |
| 20:36.13 | supernovia | :-D |
| 20:36.22 | SunSparc | supernovia: Just keep a mental image of everyone in the audience sitting there in their underwear. |
| 20:36.22 | mindjuju | back when I was striving to be a lawyer and wanted international experience |
| 20:36.37 | mindjuju | yeah, that underwear thing can be illegal if there is somebody under age |
| 20:36.41 | mindjuju | think johnny carson |
| 20:36.43 | SunSparc | lol |
| 20:36.51 | mindjuju | :)_ |
| 20:36.51 | supernovia | lol |
| 20:37.01 | supernovia | Yeah I don't know if it'd be a good idea for me to picture people in their undies |
| 20:37.04 | SunSparc | Picture anyone underage in full pajamas. |
| 20:37.22 | supernovia | I think I could, however, picture them .. |
| 20:37.33 | supernovia | .. standing up and speaking and being just as nervous as I am |
| 20:37.48 | mindjuju | any how, what if george clooney decided to attend, or ben affleck |
| 20:37.55 | mindjuju | and supernovia is imagining them in their undies |
| 20:37.59 | supernovia | (People in their undies are a little intimidating too, tbh) |
| 20:38.03 | mindjuju | it could thorw her off! |
| 20:38.08 | supernovia | Exactly!! |
| 20:38.13 | SunSparc | LOL |
| 20:38.19 | mindjuju | especially if they were doing muscle flexes |
| 20:38.26 | supernovia | I know! I mean, I'd be a mess |
| 20:38.30 | SunSparc | And they might ask her to dance or something. |
| 20:38.38 | mindjuju | exactly! |
| 20:38.53 | supernovia | see, I just didn't know how to say that. but yeah. |
| 20:39.57 | SunSparc | And all of a sudden she would be in a beautiful evening gown, there would be mist rolling in, a big band would start playing and she and Ben would take off dancing across the stage... |
| 20:40.17 | supernovia | Woowoo! |
| 20:40.24 | SunSparc | And everyone would give uproarious applause. |
| 20:40.29 | mindjuju | yeah yeah! |
| 20:40.34 | supernovia | but see. I like geeks. not Ben. |
| 20:40.39 | supernovia | :) |
| 20:40.42 | mindjuju | course, isn't ben with jolie? |
| 20:40.49 | SunSparc | Secretly, Ben hacks on Linux. |
| 20:40.55 | supernovia | Ooh lah... |
| 20:41.01 | SunSparc | rofl |
| 20:43.54 | supernovia | I'll be glad to be off the stinky part of this diet by then. Makes me so darn emo/grumpy |
| 20:44.10 | SunSparc | Which diet? |
| 20:44.13 | mindjuju | what diet you on? |
| 20:44.18 | mindjuju | grapefruit? |
| 20:44.21 | supernovia | voodoo diet of the devil |
| 20:44.27 | mindjuju | cabbage and beets? |
| 20:44.37 | SunSparc | Mmmm, I love cabbage and beets |
| 20:44.38 | supernovia | (but which, apparently, works quite well - 13lbs down now) |
| 20:44.46 | mindjuju | way cool! |
| 20:44.52 | supernovia | it sucks |
| 20:44.58 | SunSparc | Good job |
| 20:45.00 | mindjuju | voodoo diet? |
| 20:45.02 | supernovia | but it works |
| 20:45.06 | supernovia | Yeah. HCG. |
| 20:45.10 | mindjuju | is that like eye of newt and |
| 20:45.11 | mindjuju | oh |
| 20:45.18 | mindjuju | the baby pee diet? |
| 20:45.20 | supernovia | You can buy it at Macey's now so I figured it's not as scary. but it stinks. |
| 20:45.26 | supernovia | Yeah, mas o meno |
| 20:45.32 | mindjuju | i would imagine it would stink |
| 20:45.39 | supernovia | lol. |
| 20:45.40 | mindjuju | and that's literally speaking |
| 20:45.42 | mindjuju | :) |
| 20:45.50 | supernovia | well, not stinky stinky but it makes life a little miserable |
| 20:45.57 | SunSparc | supernovia: Mrs. SunSparc is doing that one also. She loves it. |
| 20:46.00 | supernovia | and I don't even believe in dieting |
| 20:46.04 | supernovia | So I heard :) |
| 20:46.23 | supernovia | (Mrs. SunSparc is very good friends with my sis-in-law, whom I was visiting last week) |
| 20:46.35 | supernovia | of course SunSparc knows that :) |
| 20:46.48 | SunSparc | Naturally. :) |
| 20:47.08 | supernovia | I don't think I used the word "whom" properly there |
| 20:47.17 | mgeary | no, that was correct |
| 20:47.33 | mindjuju | mgeary knows all! |
| 20:47.36 | SunSparc | The weather was not too bad when we were down there. |
| 20:47.41 | SunSparc | Actually rained quite a bit. |
| 20:48.51 | mindjuju | ah sunsparc, that remidns me |
| 20:48.52 | mgeary | "whom" is the object of the verb "visiting". Accusative case. "Who" is only used in the nominative case. |
| 20:49.03 | mgeary | "whom" is used in both the accusative and dative cases |
| 20:49.11 | mindjuju | have you ever seen the game gratuitous space battles on steam |
| 20:49.19 | supernovia | oh I was thinking only dative |
| 20:49.19 | mindjuju | it AWESOME |
| 20:49.25 | SunSparc | mindjuju: Nope |
| 20:49.29 | mindjuju | ~dict dative |
| 20:49.34 | mindjuju | as in to date? |
| 20:49.39 | supernovia | woo woo! |
| 20:50.03 | supernovia | when you do something _to_ an object |
| 20:50.38 | supernovia | you use daitive for your pronoun .. right? |
| 20:50.39 | mindjuju | sunsparc, it was $6 for the full game and all expansions, it's an awesome game if you like to watch things fight and blow up |
| 20:50.46 | supernovia | er, dative |
| 20:50.58 | mindjuju | i'm sorry, i don't do that kind of thing |
| 20:51.05 | mindjuju | dative, sounds naughty |
| 20:51.25 | mgeary | supernovia: dative is for the indirect object. "I threw supernovia the ball". The ball is the direct object (accusative case) and supernovia is the indirect object (dative case) |
| 20:51.27 | supernovia | (I remember it because the russian word for "Give me" is dai) |
| 20:52.09 | mindjuju | sunsparc, it's a realt time strategy (RTS) without the micro managing |
| 20:52.18 | supernovia | so by visiting my sis-in-law, I've indirectly objectified her |
| 20:52.32 | mindjuju | you get to build the ships, you get to position them in battle, and you get to give orders |
| 20:52.41 | SunSparc | mindjuju: I see, skip all the management and just get to the battles. Hehe |
| 20:52.48 | mindjuju | but you don't get to control the individual ship, just |
| 20:52.49 | mindjuju | yup |
| 20:52.53 | mindjuju | it's so awesome |
| 20:53.19 | SunSparc | :) |
| 20:53.45 | supernovia | good to know mgeary :) |
| 20:53.50 | mgeary | :P |
| 20:55.15 | mindjuju | i get confused with adverbs, and i HATED i HATED I HATED sentence diagramming |
| 20:55.35 | supernovia | I am usually handy with CSS though, and at the moment i'm surely wishing I could position a child relative to its grandparent... |
| 20:55.52 | supernovia | mindjuju: schoolhouse rock will clear everything up for you |
| 20:56.15 | supernovia | Oh that Mr. Morton song is so darn cute. |
| 20:56.29 | mgeary | learning a (related) foreign language is a tremendous help to grammar |
| 20:56.40 | jsmith | mgeary: Amen, brother! |
| 20:56.44 | supernovia | agreed |
| 20:57.20 | mgeary | german and english have a huge degree of syntactic and grammatical similarities. |
| 20:57.31 | supernovia | really? German's just as messy? |
| 20:57.37 | mgeary | well |
| 20:57.53 | mindjuju | i heard that in the German language, they glue words together |
| 20:57.56 | supernovia | Russian is horribly complicated, but once you know the rules (and I surely don't) you can count on them |
| 20:57.59 | mgeary | mindjuju: yeah |
| 20:58.01 | mindjuju | like we do sentences |
| 20:58.04 | mgeary | i didn't say EVERYTHING was the same. German is very structured, whereas english has a ton of inconsistencies |
| 20:59.02 | supernovia | in Russian you even have to conjugate proper nouns |
| 20:59.19 | supernovia | I can't just go to the store with Lisa. I've got to go to the store with Lisum. |
| 20:59.28 | mgeary | ugh. that's like Latin |
| 20:59.41 | mindjuju | in Soviet Russia, you don't conjugate verbs, they conjugate you! |
| 20:59.43 | supernovia | And if I don't go to the store with Lisa, well, I have to change that too but I can't remember how. Lisu or something silly |
| 21:00.05 | supernovia | lol mindjuju |
| 21:00.22 | supernovia | :-D |
| 21:00.26 | SunSparc | :) |
| 21:00.38 | mindjuju | thx guys, i'm here all week! |
| 21:01.07 | supernovia | yay! |
| 21:01.24 | SunSparc | Try the veal. |
| 21:01.33 | mindjuju | don't forget to tip your waiter! |
| 21:02.25 | SunSparc | mindjuju: You might like this: http://www.thesixtyone.com/s/bJxLCgZzCOw/ |
| 21:03.01 | mindjuju | starts good |
| 21:06.12 | supernovia | oohlahlah, you can position a child relative to its grandparent |
| 21:06.43 | supernovia | if the grandparent is relatively positioned, then you can absolutely position its grandchild against it. Neat! |
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| 21:13.52 | supernovia | so josephscott: we still need to figure out what we're gonna blend! |
| 21:14.11 | josephscott | I've got a WP mug and usb drive |
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| 21:15.09 | SunSparc | PHP, will it blend? |
| 21:15.39 | supernovia | Mm, a mug could be interesting |
| 21:15.44 | supernovia | I was thinking a USB drive, while it would work.. |
| 21:15.51 | josephscott | ceramic dust :-) |
| 21:15.53 | supernovia | I mean, -of course- that would blend, right? |
| 21:16.25 | josephscott | we talked about possible digging up a tiny mini desktop system that we could blend |
| 21:16.28 | supernovia | I'm thinking about buying an XtremeKey and trying that :-D |
| 21:16.31 | josephscott | not sure if that will happen though |
| 21:16.33 | supernovia | Yeahhh, we were talking about that too |
| 21:16.48 | josephscott | that is supposed to be indestructible right? |
| 21:16.48 | DexterTheDragon | I think you should print out the entire WP source code |
| 21:16.54 | supernovia | Yeah it is |
| 21:17.02 | josephscott | bring it :-) |
| 21:17.07 | supernovia | Yeah, we thought about that too DexterTheDragon |
| 21:17.17 | supernovia | but Tom said just a few sheets of paper fill up the blender after they're blended |
| 21:17.20 | josephscott | it would just make paper mulch |
| 21:17.33 | josephscott | go chop down a tree instead ;-) |
| 21:17.38 | supernovia | hee hee |
| 21:17.50 | supernovia | But the XtremeKey (I .. hope it'll blend?) |
| 21:17.56 | supernovia | that could be quite interesting :) |
| 21:18.06 | josephscott | that would be good test |
| 21:18.17 | supernovia | It'd probably give the blender a beating.. |
| 21:18.44 | supernovia | They've contacted us before, trying to bring it on |
| 21:19.07 | josephscott | nice |
| 21:19.17 | supernovia | maybe ⦠maybe ⦠|
| 21:19.50 | supernovia | I think it'd be fun :) |
| 21:20.33 | supernovia | We need to get our heads together on this one though, whatever we do, so the blend will be super rad |
| 21:21.14 | josephscott | well, at least the mug and usb drive, and if we come up with something else all the better :-) |
| 21:21.46 | supernovia | I'm excited. for that. |
| 21:21.58 | supernovia | Less excited about picturing Ben Afl⦠oh nevermind. |
| 21:24.28 | SunSparc | heh |
| 21:28.36 | supernovia | I guess josephscott wasn't here for that convo :) |
| 21:30.37 | supernovia | we've been chatting about blending something like this: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=42 |
| 21:31.08 | josephscott | can it run WP? |
| 21:33.48 | supernovia | I was saying it'd probably need some ram and what not |
| 21:34.04 | supernovia | but if we could make a wee little server that could run wordpress, that could be fun |
| 21:48.49 | mindjuju | supernovia, what about Wordpress installed on an EEEPC, then blendguy takes a sledge to it, gets the peices and blends that |
| 21:58.35 | supernovia | We could do that. People flipped out when we blended an iPad |
| 21:58.45 | supernovia | because we had to break it first to fit it in the blender |
| 21:59.21 | mindjuju | that's silly |
| 21:59.42 | supernovia | Yeah, people freak out over stuff. there's a guy on youtube that says we were lying about blending magnets.. |
| 21:59.51 | mindjuju | yeah, i saw |
| 22:00.07 | mindjuju | the dude need s a life |
| 22:00.29 | mindjuju | i'm surprised he didn't put a rebuttal against the chuck norris episode |
| 22:00.40 | mindjuju | or argue that blending magnets wouldn't have stopped the earths rotation |
| 22:00.43 | supernovia | Oh, chuck norris did |
| 22:00.58 | mindjuju | yeah, i know norris's people were over you guys |
| 22:01.05 | supernovia | I don't think those are neo-whatever magnets |
| 22:01.13 | mindjuju | but that was for intelectual property rights |
| 22:01.15 | supernovia | did you see the facebook blend after that? lol |
| 22:01.18 | mindjuju | not on feasibility |
| 22:01.33 | mindjuju | i saw the ipad one |
| 22:01.37 | mindjuju | haven't seen one after that |
| 22:01.50 | supernovia | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lQ1Pz_O-j0 - this was after Chuck's people threw a fit |
| 22:02.44 | mindjuju | oh thats funny |
| 22:03.04 | supernovia | I love that one just for that little jab |
| 22:04.03 | mindjuju | so did they pic something already that a person submitted in so they could win the blender? |
| 22:04.07 | mindjuju | i must have blender |
| 22:04.37 | supernovia | Yeah they blended a pool noodle |
| 22:04.48 | supernovia | She'd turned a bunch of noodles into a giant blender |
| 22:05.15 | mindjuju | mgeary - this willItBlend is in german - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kdMItKb25s |
| 22:07.18 | supernovia | like a sparkly tornado |
| 22:09.30 | mindjuju | this willItBlend is sick and wrong on so many levels - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSTWqRkBN74&feature=related |
| 22:11.36 | mindjuju | k, on this one, he must have set the blender on Uber High Speed Mode - sounds like a jet -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdEVTqINi0s&feature=related |
| 22:18.34 | supernovia | the blenders are pretty loud :-/ |
| 22:18.51 | supernovia | not that loud though :-p |
| 22:18.56 | supernovia | and usually you have a lid on it |
| 22:19.21 | mindjuju | so how would one get a shirt? |
| 22:19.34 | PoeticIntensity | ugh.... |
| 22:20.00 | PoeticIntensity | anyone have any great complex (alternative action URL) form plugin recommendations for wordpress? |
| 22:20.13 | PoeticIntensity | I've been trying to get formbuilder to work now for about 3 days with no success. |
| 22:21.11 | supernovia | so you want to have a form on the public end that'll shrink urls for ya? |
| 22:21.25 | supernovia | I have a back-end url shrinker.. |
| 22:21.51 | PoeticIntensity | ummmm no. |
| 22:22.11 | PoeticIntensity | I want to be able to have a form within wordpress wherein I can use any "action" URL I want. |
| 22:22.31 | PoeticIntensity | not really that complex of an idea, but I'm having a tough time figuring out how to work that out from within wordpress. |
| 22:22.46 | PoeticIntensity | formbuilder plugin claims to do it, but it doesn't post where it should. |
| 22:22.47 | mindjuju | form action is in the DOM |
| 22:23.18 | mindjuju | i think it's something like parent.form1.action = 'something.php'; |
| 22:23.39 | PoeticIntensity | yup, it sure is.... But to create a form with validation, and not use a plugin, from my research, is painful at best. |
| 22:24.23 | PoeticIntensity | It would take me literally minutes to create this from scratch, but within the framework of wordpress, I feel like I've got a straightjacket on. |
| 22:24.50 | mindjuju | or any JS framework for that matter |
| 22:25.03 | PoeticIntensity | yes... any framework that I'm unfamiliar with. |
| 22:25.11 | PoeticIntensity | I'm 90% there.... |
| 22:25.39 | PoeticIntensity | This darn thing just isn't doing what it purports to be able to do... and apparently I'm the only one who has a problem with it, because google ain't givin' no love. :-( |
| 22:26.39 | josephscott | PoeticIntensity: just add it to the theme |
| 22:26.52 | josephscott | or create a shortcode via a plugin |
| 22:27.25 | PoeticIntensity | josephscott, any URL on how to translate that to "jason-ese"? |
| 22:27.30 | Utah_Dave | hey, fungus, you around? |
| 22:27.30 | josephscott | WP gives plenty of options |
| 22:27.35 | PoeticIntensity | I've never worked with Themes... |
| 22:27.40 | PoeticIntensity | and I have no idea what a shortcode is. |
| 22:27.58 | josephscott | PoeticIntensity: you should come to WordCamp Utah at the end of the month :-) |
| 22:28.00 | fungus | Utah_Dave, sure |
| 22:28.12 | PoeticIntensity | :-) |
| 22:28.21 | PoeticIntensity | *grumbles* |
| 22:28.27 | PoeticIntensity | I guess I'll continue googling. |
| 22:28.32 | PoeticIntensity | at least I have new terms to learn! |
| 22:28.36 | Utah_Dave | Could you help me clarify my understanding of a hash vs digital signature? I have to explain it to some people for security soon |
| 22:28.36 | PoeticIntensity | yay! |
| 22:28.38 | josephscott | what exactly are you trying to do? |
| 22:29.00 | PoeticIntensity | I'm trying to create a form that submits to a page outside of wordpress. |
| 22:29.00 | josephscott | can you point me to a URL that you are working on? |
| 22:29.04 | Utah_Dave | We have a vendor who is using md5 hashes to verify that a file hasn't been tampered with |
| 22:29.06 | PoeticIntensity | yup... |
| 22:29.28 | PoeticIntensity | PM sent |
| 22:29.44 | Utah_Dave | but the md5 file is kept in the same database. Couldn't a hacker make changes to the original file and then create a new md5 file and replace the old md5 file? |
| 22:29.46 | fungus | an md5 hash confirms integrity of the file, but the hash itself isn't guaranteed |
| 22:29.56 | fungus | Utah_Dave, exactly |
| 22:30.06 | Utah_Dave | OK, that's what I thought. |
| 22:30.36 | Utah_Dave | This is a 2 million dollar system we're talking about and I think they're whole security is worthless |
| 22:30.44 | fungus | a dig sig, can be verified by the signer's public key which you obtained through a separate channel |
| 22:30.45 | Utah_Dave | s/they're/their |
| 22:31.32 | fungus | and if you trust this other channel, you can keep that key safe, then the dig sig can be verified and trusted as long as you trust your public key. |
| 22:31.33 | Utah_Dave | so the system has the public key and signs the files with it |
| 22:31.46 | fungus | Unless... the signer's private key is compromised. |
| 22:32.02 | Utah_Dave | if I have a copy of the public key I can verify that those files have been signed by the same public key |
| 22:32.29 | fungus | Signer signs the file with their private key. Which they keep safe themselves. |
| 22:32.30 | Utah_Dave | And never have to bring out the private key, unless I need to prove that the public key I'm using is correct. |
| 22:32.39 | fungus | You verify using their public key. |
| 22:32.53 | fungus | private key is only used for the signing. |
| 22:33.13 | fungus | should be encrypted with a passphrase and kept very safe |
| 22:33.42 | Utah_Dave | This is an automated system, is there a way to do this without having to have the private key on the system? |
| 22:34.16 | fungus | Then keep the private key on a different system, sign it there, and export results to the untrusted machine |
| 22:35.06 | fungus | private keys must always stay safe on "trusted" machines. |
| 22:35.24 | fungus | Eg. the developer's machine. |
| 22:35.40 | fungus | Dev signs package, and puts the package and it's signature on the FTP server. |
| 22:36.00 | fungus | User downloads package, signature. |
| 22:36.27 | fungus | Gets public key via another channel, or by verifying a fingerprint. then verifies the package is good. |
| 22:36.47 | Utah_Dave | Right. Hmm. My problem is that these systems are on internal private networks with no internet connection. |
| 22:37.06 | fungus | That's not a problem. |
| 22:37.36 | fungus | If they are internal, then why are you worried about this kind of compromise? |
| 22:37.37 | Utah_Dave | How would that remote system be able to sign a file when the private key is on my computer here? |
| 22:38.13 | fungus | Only the creator of the package/file/etc needs the private key. |
| 22:38.21 | fungus | The distribution server doesn't need it. |
| 22:38.25 | Utah_Dave | I need to be able to guarantee that the file hasn't been modified since it was signed. |
| 22:38.30 | fungus | The recipient doesn't need it either. |
| 22:39.06 | fungus | Ok, then the author has the private key on his machine. |
| 22:39.38 | fungus | But you would need to build an internal public key repository for recipients to verify against. |
| 22:40.39 | Utah_Dave | The author is a server that is creating text files based on external information. I need the server to sign each text file immediately after creation. |
| 22:40.58 | Utah_Dave | So that later I can come in manually and verify that the files haven't been messed with. |
| 22:42.20 | macnewbold | sounds fun |
| 22:42.31 | fungus | I guess you could keep the "public" key on your machine. and keep it secret. |
| 22:42.51 | fungus | That would work, just kinda makes the names of the keys a bit opposite. |
| 22:43.21 | fungus | Thinking of using PGP or SSL? |
| 22:44.07 | fungus | Wait, you don't need the public key to really be private... Just secure on your machine. |
| 22:44.14 | Utah_Dave | yeah, I was thinking of using PGP |
| 22:44.37 | fungus | As long as your copy is trusted, the verification can be trusted. |
| 22:44.50 | Utah_Dave | OK, so the server uses the private key to sign everything |
| 22:45.08 | Utah_Dave | And then I show up with the public key and verify that it's correct. |
| 22:45.27 | fungus | yes |
| 22:45.42 | Utah_Dave | OK, I think that works. |
| 22:45.54 | Utah_Dave | Thanks, fungus. I appreciate the help! |
| 22:46.06 | mindjuju | ~fungus++ |
| 22:47.07 | fungus | Utah_Dave, the private key still needs to be safe though, or they could re-sign their changes. |
| 22:48.23 | fungus | Another idea.... Don't use the signature methods, but use the encryption methods. |
| 22:49.09 | *** join/#uphpu PoeticIntensity (~jason@67.214.232.162) |
| 22:49.09 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v PoeticIntensity] by ChanServ |
| 22:49.10 | fungus | Just store a second copy that is encrypted for your public key. Only you can decrypt it. |
| 22:49.33 | fungus | Then you need to use diff or something to compare it's decryption with the original document |
| 22:49.52 | fungus | Or just encrypt the MD5 hash of the original document. |
| 22:51.05 | macnewbold | bingo |
| 22:51.12 | macnewbold | send the doc, and the encrypted md5 |
| 22:51.13 | mindjuju | all this talk of hash is making me hungry : beef hash, potato hash, hash browns, md5 hash |
| 22:51.17 | fungus | By encrypting the MD5 hash you need another step to do instead of using the built in fancy verification routines. |
| 22:51.25 | macnewbold | they can use the pubkey on it and get the md5 which matches the md5 of the doc |
| 22:51.28 | macnewbold | proves non-tampered |
| 22:51.36 | fungus | Still cryptographically secure though |
| 22:51.59 | macnewbold | easier computationally and for accessibility if you don't encrypt the whole doc |
| 22:52.13 | fungus | Only you can read or the MD5 hash with your private key. |
| 22:52.38 | *** join/#uphpu mitchmorby (~Adium@166-70-210-180.ip.xmission.com) |
| 22:52.39 | macnewbold | exactly, upon creation calc the md5 and encrypt it with the privkey |
| 22:53.29 | macnewbold | send them the doc and the encrypted hash (aka "the digital signature") and they get the pub key from a reliable source to make sure it really was you that signed it |
| 22:53.46 | macnewbold | you might want to use sha1 or something instead of md5, since md5's been cracked apparently |
| 22:54.02 | fungus | That's pretty much what the signing routines do, with reversal of the keys. private vs public |
| 22:54.23 | macnewbold | why would they reverse the keys? |
| 22:54.27 | fungus | MD5 hasn't been "cracked", just found some very rare collisions |
| 22:54.54 | fungus | in signing, you encrypt the hash with your private key, so anyone can use the public key to verify the document |
| 22:55.27 | fungus | in Utah_Dave's situation the public key is the encrypting key, and only He can decrypt to verify the document |
| 22:56.53 | fungus | Utah_Dave, example: tar -zcvf - . | md5sum - | gpg -e -a |
| 22:57.08 | *** join/#uphpu PoeticIntensity (~jason@67.214.232.162) |
| 22:57.08 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v PoeticIntensity] by ChanServ |
| 22:57.49 | SunSparc | I need some suggestions for a high quality teleconference service. |
| 23:00.09 | mindjuju | @sunsparc - brin |
| 23:00.14 | mindjuju | brin.com |
| 23:00.28 | jsmith | SunSparc: ZipDX? |
| 23:00.30 | mindjuju | or am i misunderstanding? |
| 23:00.32 | SunSparc | mindjuju: site not found |
| 23:00.44 | mindjuju | http://www.brin.com/ |
| 23:01.09 | SunSparc | Ah, yeah, actual telephone conferencing. |
| 23:01.14 | SunSparc | Is what I need. |
| 23:01.29 | jsmith | SunSparc: ZipDX offers G.722 (HD Voice) audio conferences |
| 23:01.37 | jsmith | SunSparc: zipdx.com |
| 23:01.46 | *** join/#uphpu PoeticIntensity (~jason@67.214.232.162) |
| 23:01.46 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v PoeticIntensity] by ChanServ |
| 23:02.34 | SunSparc | jsmith-away: thanks, checking it out. |
| 23:10.36 | SunSparc | jsmith-away: looks promising, we will try them out. |
| 23:10.44 | SunSparc | mindjuju: Thanks for your help also. |
| 23:10.52 | SunSparc | ~jsmith++ |
| 23:10.57 | SunSparc | ~mindjuju++ |
| 23:11.07 | SunSparc | laterz |
| 23:11.55 | *** part/#uphpu mgeary (~mgeary@166.70.44.49) |
| 23:16.03 | *** join/#uphpu beandog (~sdibb@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 23:16.04 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v beandog] by ChanServ |
| 23:17.01 | *** join/#uphpu whiteinge (~whiteinge@oalug/member/whiteinge) |
| 23:25.37 | fungus | Utah_Dave, Simple automatic signing demo. http://pastebin.org/467742 |
| 23:26.26 | mindjuju | :) |
| 23:26.34 | fungus | It's called brain damage. |
| 23:26.38 | fungus | :) |
| 23:27.01 | fungus | Brain excels in areas that aren't damaged. |
| 23:27.17 | fungus | Don't ask me to do anything creative. |
| 23:29.30 | supernovia | Ask me to do creative stuff. I likes it :) |
| 23:29.41 | mindjuju | oh man, i forgot to email the mailing list |
| 23:30.00 | mindjuju | i was going to get opinion on online backup for enterprise enviro |
| 23:30.08 | mindjuju | wait wait, PI is your new IT manager? |
| 23:30.58 | supernovia | No, but his old IT manager is my new IT manager |
| 23:31.11 | mindjuju | curious |
| 23:31.12 | supernovia | and he's a great fit :) |
| 23:31.25 | supernovia | The old one (who was great, btw) just left |
| 23:32.13 | mindjuju | you know what i just learned that I'm sure fungus knw for like the last decade? |
| 23:32.24 | mindjuju | grub 2 can load an iso |
| 23:32.38 | fungus | really? that is cool |
| 23:32.38 | mindjuju | cool!, i'm going to do that |
| 23:32.41 | mindjuju | and you can also theme it |
| 23:32.50 | mindjuju | wait, there is NO way you didn't already know that |
| 23:32.55 | mindjuju | fungus knows all |
| 23:33.02 | fungus | not true. |
| 23:33.59 | supernovia | mindjuju: did you take the linux class there at UVU? |
| 23:34.00 | fungus | Thanks mindjuju, i'll never get my work done now. Gotta go play with grub2 now. |
| 23:34.17 | beandog | grub2 sucks. |
| 23:34.18 | mindjuju | i'm actually taking it this semester |
| 23:34.26 | beandog | syslinux > grub |
| 23:34.35 | mindjuju | fungus, it looks awesome! i want to do that with backtrack.iso and some other things |
| 23:34.47 | fungus | beandog, you're not serious are you?? |
| 23:34.54 | mindjuju | here is where i saw it |
| 23:34.55 | mindjuju | https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Grub2 |
| 23:35.00 | beandog | fungus: well, syslinux *does* rawk, I dunno if its better than grub tho. |
| 23:35.01 | fungus | syslinux is for thumb drives and such |
| 23:35.12 | mindjuju | and if you go down more than half a page, you'll see that grub2 is themed with a scnery picy |
| 23:35.18 | beandog | fungus: not just |
| 23:35.25 | fungus | I guess that's true. |
| 23:35.29 | beandog | fungus: I use it as bootloader on my HTPC |
| 23:35.44 | beandog | oh wait, thats on a USB stick. |
| 23:35.45 | fungus | interesting |
| 23:35.48 | fungus | lol |
| 23:35.50 | josephscott | oh man, I can smell dinner cooking up stairs |
| 23:35.51 | beandog | but still |
| 23:35.59 | beandog | its awesome. |
| 23:36.11 | beandog | has some really cool options |
| 23:36.17 | supernovia | who do you have, mindjuju? |
| 23:36.28 | fungus | yeah syslinux is cool, but I probably wouldn't use it for normal booting. |
| 23:36.41 | josephscott | supernovia: pete ashdown might have a cool device hack that we can blend, waiting to hear if it is possible |
| 23:36.42 | fungus | I use syslinux for my PXE boot stuff |
| 23:36.57 | supernovia | I had proff. cold, had a great time, but i've heard some people here really hate his guts |
| 23:37.08 | supernovia | oh yeah josephscott? |
| 23:37.43 | supernovia | I am just about to req. two XtremeKeys (one to test blend to be sure it's not gonna bust out of the pitcher and kill someone) |
| 23:37.46 | josephscott | waiting to hear if he can pull it off |
| 23:38.41 | supernovia | hehe, I went to ask the engineers if they saw any problem with this blend⦠I heard some funny stories |
| 23:38.52 | supernovia | like the time Tom decided to blend bullets. didn't work out so well ;-) |
| 23:38.54 | fungus | wow, josephscott you really outdid yourself for WordCamp. Both Tom and Matt. gj |
| 23:39.06 | mindjuju | @supernovia, Crazy! |
| 23:39.13 | supernovia | I know. he's a nut. it |
| 23:39.16 | supernovia | it's fun though :) |
| 23:39.27 | josephscott | fungus: we are trying! |
| 23:39.29 | supernovia | (not blending bullets, working with a nut) |
| 23:39.35 | *** part/#uphpu Utah_Dave (~boucha@72-166-51-162.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 23:39.56 | josephscott | fungus: the guy who started http://page.ly/ is from SLC, he is going to present as well |
| 23:40.07 | supernovia | Are all of your ducks in a row now josephscott? I was gonna see if I could help but I'm super freaking out about my talk |
| 23:40.30 | supernovia | neato :) |
| 23:40.31 | josephscott | supernovia: focus on the talk, I think we've got the other parts covered |
| 23:40.46 | josephscott | oh, and help spread the word |
| 23:41.54 | josephscott | trying to sort out order for lunch and tee shirts, better to have people sign up early for an accurate count instead of waiting until the last minute |
| 23:51.00 | fungus | Love DM, but it'd kill my mood right now. |