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| 15:23.15 | mindjuju | hi supernovia, sounds like SF was fun :) |
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| 15:25.14 | supernovia | sf was awesome :) |
| 15:26.04 | supernovia | i'm gonna head to a meeting now though - see ya on the flip isde |
| 15:26.10 | mindjuju | cya |
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| 16:01.42 | mindjuju | ~apb herlo |
| 16:01.43 | ibot | ACTION summons baby Lyssa to rough up herlo |
| 16:24.43 | herlo | mindjuju: uh, pong... |
| 16:25.05 | mindjuju | hey i'll PM |
| 16:25.15 | herlo | okay |
| 16:39.45 | mindjuju | TASERs! AHHHHH!!!! -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riCu3LJOgmk |
| 16:50.54 | mindjuju | my .1 desire to own an iPad has now increased by a full order http://mashable.com/2010/05/04/dropbox-ipad/ |
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| 17:41.23 | carmony | ugly website of the day.... |
| 17:41.24 | carmony | http://ihireaccountants.com/ |
| 17:42.14 | mindjuju | wow, got to love that color schema |
| 17:42.40 | mindjuju | ~apb macnewbold |
| 17:42.41 | ibot | ACTION hires Leland to rough up macnewbold |
| 17:44.13 | mindjuju | carmony, you still around? |
| 17:44.19 | carmony | eh, maybe :P |
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| 17:45.05 | mindjuju | i was going to ask your thoughts about HTML 5 |
| 17:45.06 | carmony | lol |
| 17:45.11 | mindjuju | i need to code out a side, new site |
| 17:45.37 | carmony | I'll be honest, I haven't really looked at HTML 5 |
| 17:45.41 | mindjuju | i'm wondering things like browser adoption of HTML 5, and how it works with browsers that aren't advanced enough |
| 17:45.55 | mindjuju | me either |
| 17:46.03 | macnewbold | mindjuju: sup |
| 17:46.05 | mindjuju | maybe i'll send something to the list |
| 17:46.06 | carmony | yeah, I have no idea about that. I thought HTML 5 was pretty much bc with HTML 4 stuff |
| 17:46.12 | mindjuju | ah macnewbold, how are you today? |
| 17:46.15 | carmony | for the exception of brand new features |
| 17:46.22 | macnewbold | eh, i've had better tuesdays to be honest |
| 17:46.41 | macnewbold | though we did have a client bring in bagels and donuts today for us |
| 17:46.47 | mindjuju | yeah, what i'm about to say isn't going to make it better, i'm afraid |
| 17:46.52 | macnewbold | hehe |
| 17:47.13 | mindjuju | macnewbold, i'm SOOOO excited to remind you that i have you donw for this month's UPHPU meet! |
| 17:47.16 | mindjuju | AWESOME! |
| 17:47.18 | macnewbold | as a coworker so aptly put it: May the Fourth be with you - happy star wars day |
| 17:47.34 | macnewbold | mindjuju: isn't that over 2 weeks away still? |
| 17:47.39 | mindjuju | yup |
| 17:47.43 | macnewbold | btw, what's the topic? |
| 17:47.47 | mindjuju | this is a presenaters notification |
| 17:48.02 | mindjuju | well, when I wrote you in, it was from a couple months ago and it was for UDBUG |
| 17:48.06 | mindjuju | something SQL-ly |
| 17:50.18 | macnewbold | interesting |
| 17:50.35 | mindjuju | yup, this was from way back in jan, possibly feb |
| 17:50.39 | mindjuju | a LONG time ago |
| 17:51.06 | macnewbold | well, what says the group? do you want something about database design? Using MySQL, writing queries, etc? or something completely different because that topic is old news now? |
| 17:51.53 | mindjuju | even with noSQL becoming vogue, i don't think RDMS is gone |
| 17:52.33 | macnewbold | totally |
| 17:53.12 | macnewbold | mindjuju: what would you personally prefer it cover? |
| 17:55.39 | beandog | ~mullet mindjuju |
| 17:55.54 | mindjuju | in truth it doesn't have to be SQL if everybody is SQL |
| 17:55.58 | mindjuju | 'd out |
| 17:56.43 | mindjuju | do you want to give it a think and let me know |
| 17:57.38 | mindjuju | carmony, i got confused on HTML 5, i thought with google using it heavily that it had been approved, but it turns out, it's still a work in progress |
| 17:57.41 | mindjuju | so i guess its moot |
| 17:57.58 | macnewbold | sometimes browser start supporting it before it's even final |
| 17:58.12 | mindjuju | i know chrome does |
| 17:58.24 | macnewbold | which can be a good thing, cause sometimes implementation issues and experience can steer it before it gets nailed down. |
| 17:58.38 | macnewbold | yeah, doom in html 5 seemed pretty cool to me |
| 17:59.08 | mindjuju | i saw that! |
| 17:59.10 | mindjuju | way cool |
| 17:59.13 | macnewbold | what happened to the discussion about doing a business round table discussion? something about discussing best practices or something? |
| 17:59.25 | mindjuju | we could do that |
| 17:59.42 | macnewbold | i'm not pushing for it, just thought the idea was on the table at one point |
| 17:59.56 | mindjuju | provided we could get some other business owners to participate |
| 18:00.02 | mindjuju | ala the Treeline group |
| 18:00.06 | mindjuju | who is it that runs that place? |
| 18:00.11 | mindjuju | i forget |
| 18:00.18 | mindjuju | seems like he doesn't like vinegar though |
| 18:00.24 | carmony | mgeary ? |
| 18:00.31 | carmony | lol :P |
| 18:00.33 | mgeary | oy |
| 18:00.34 | macnewbold | on the sql topic, I'd be perfectly happy doing almost pure Q&A, what SQL problems do you usually face, and how can we help solve them, etc |
| 18:00.44 | macnewbold | but i'd be a little worried about not having enough questions come in |
| 18:00.50 | macnewbold | maybe taking some in advance would be good |
| 18:00.58 | mindjuju | let's see, who else has a bidness here |
| 18:01.06 | mgeary | psh. vinegar |
| 18:01.06 | mindjuju | carmony tech, |
| 18:01.16 | macnewbold | itimber does |
| 18:01.25 | mgeary | no, itimber is working for the man now |
| 18:01.29 | macnewbold | doh |
| 18:01.32 | macnewbold | right |
| 18:01.57 | macnewbold | depending on what it would discuss, it wouldn't necessarily need to be owners |
| 18:02.07 | mindjuju | true that |
| 18:02.12 | macnewbold | managers have a great perspective too, as do devs who work somewhere they think does it right |
| 18:02.19 | mindjuju | plus i could dig up some non #uphpu chan people to be there |
| 18:02.35 | mindjuju | should we do Business + PHP this month? |
| 18:02.36 | macnewbold | yeah, i bet herlo knows some |
| 18:04.05 | mindjuju | mgeary, do you think you'd be able to come up for a meet on business if macnewbold desides that's what this month is on? |
| 18:04.11 | mindjuju | please please please! |
| 18:04.12 | mgeary | date? |
| 18:04.31 | mgeary | did y'all want to come to Germany for the meeting? |
| 18:04.42 | mindjuju | that's may 20th |
| 18:04.47 | mgeary | ~gone mgeary |
| 18:04.50 | mindjuju | germany no |
| 18:04.57 | mindjuju | ah! are you out of town? |
| 18:05.02 | mgeary | yep |
| 18:05.08 | mindjuju | sadly |
| 18:06.22 | mgeary | sorry |
| 18:06.44 | mindjuju | so macnewbold, let me know what you decide |
| 18:06.50 | macnewbold | huh? i have to choose? |
| 18:06.54 | mindjuju | another topic that hasn't had love recently is SEO |
| 18:06.58 | mindjuju | that might be good |
| 18:07.08 | macnewbold | yeah, i know some guys i could probably bring on that topic |
| 18:07.11 | mindjuju | or social media adoption in site construction ala FB integration, etc |
| 18:07.19 | beandog | FB == evil |
| 18:07.32 | mindjuju | and twitter is better? |
| 18:07.36 | beandog | yes |
| 18:07.43 | itimber | I'd be down to be there, and pitch in.... but I recently closed my biz |
| 18:08.02 | itimber | did it for 9yrs though, so I'd still be down to discuss |
| 18:08.10 | itimber | when is it this month? |
| 18:08.19 | mindjuju | may 20 |
| 18:08.37 | mindjuju | it's up in the air though as to whether its busines + PHP |
| 18:09.07 | itimber | I'll be out of town till the 19th.... so, I'll be there if you *need* me |
| 18:09.11 | itimber | otherwise, I'm sleeping |
| 18:09.13 | itimber | haha |
| 18:09.22 | mindjuju | :) |
| 18:09.37 | itimber | we'll be doing a 16hr drive, overnight, with 4 sleeping kids |
| 18:09.51 | itimber | wish me luck |
| 18:09.52 | itimber | :) |
| 18:10.16 | mindjuju | get a portable DVD player, it helps |
| 18:10.31 | beandog | those are awesome. |
| 18:10.32 | itimber | IDK though... Mac's discussions are always worth it |
| 18:10.47 | mindjuju | at sams i think i saw one for $100, or they have cheaper tv+vhs almoste verywhere now |
| 18:10.53 | mindjuju | i htink usually like $60 |
| 18:11.07 | itimber | yes.... those are supa low prices |
| 18:11.08 | itimber | sheesh |
| 18:11.29 | mindjuju | portable TV+VHS combo as good as HD TV imnsho |
| 18:12.21 | beandog | heh |
| 18:12.27 | beandog | I actually prefer my CRT TV over some things. |
| 18:12.50 | beandog | srsly. |
| 18:12.51 | itimber | I think traditional web dev shops are totally missing the mark on SEO and social networking. That would be a killer topic for a meetup |
| 18:13.02 | mgeary | stderr: ping |
| 18:14.05 | stderr | mgeary: pong |
| 18:14.16 | mindjuju | well, i've got a second project that i have to build out that is WP + FB + Twitter integration |
| 18:14.36 | mindjuju | so, i'll be doing research to see wth |
| 18:15.58 | beandog | itimber, I dunno, most social networking Ive seen is businesses just asking people to advertise for them. |
| 18:16.20 | beandog | itimber, the ones that I've seen do it right communicate with fans / consumers via twitter directly, getting people involved / interested in the process |
| 18:16.21 | beandog | my 2c |
| 18:16.23 | mindjuju | that's true beandog, i've seen that |
| 18:17.04 | itimber | yes beandog, it's a perfect opportunity to chat up your clients directly |
| 18:17.09 | itimber | as well as advertise |
| 18:17.42 | itimber | businesses should look at it as if it were a Customer Service counter |
| 18:18.07 | itimber | as well as an advertising delivery method |
| 18:18.11 | beandog | yah |
| 18:18.40 | itimber | word of mouth advertising is hugely valuable.... and now it's being done on a much larger scale than ever before |
| 18:19.43 | itimber | but think about the guy that buys a product, and is unsatisfied. He now can jump on FP/Twitter and complain, and hundreds-thousands of people will see and read that comment |
| 18:20.14 | beandog | right |
| 18:20.23 | beandog | first impression may be a negative one. |
| 18:20.30 | itimber | and it seems that most marketing/webdev companies just put in a Twitter/FB link on the site, and call it good |
| 18:20.33 | itimber | yes |
| 18:20.34 | itimber | fo sho |
| 18:20.44 | beandog | What I hate though, is marketing spin sent through normal channels |
| 18:20.46 | itimber | :) |
| 18:20.57 | beandog | social media lets people actually be human again. |
| 18:21.02 | beandog | which is refreshing |
| 18:21.07 | beandog | again, done right. |
| 18:21.35 | itimber | yes |
| 18:22.35 | itimber | and as a consumer, sometimes I just want to complain, and getting a retweet from the store's customer serv dept would not be welcome |
| 18:22.45 | itimber | *shrug |
| 18:23.45 | beandog | Well I think it's interesting how people will mention bad service |
| 18:23.59 | *** topic/#UPHPU by macnewbold -> Poll: Topic for 5/20 meeting - MySQL? Business of Web Dev (panel)? SEO? Other? give your vote to macnewbold | Utah PHP Users Group | uphpu.org |
| 18:24.01 | beandog | or a cool effort to connect, but not necessarily expected level of srvice |
| 18:24.12 | beandog | that's a pretty big margin |
| 18:27.18 | *** join/#uphpu supernovia (~Adium@76.8.222.23) |
| 18:27.37 | beandog | http://simonz.co.hu/poster/ep123456/sagaposter-final.jpg |
| 18:27.39 | beandog | okay thats awesome. |
| 18:27.47 | beandog | http://simonz.co.hu/index_eng.html |
| 18:28.43 | supernovia | indeed |
| 18:31.54 | influx | harro |
| 18:34.26 | mindjuju | sure could go for a cheesburger right now |
| 18:34.33 | beandog | me too |
| 18:34.39 | beandog | mmm, apollo burger |
| 18:36.59 | mindjuju | beandog, you going to ironman2 on friday? |
| 18:37.41 | beandog | no thx |
| 18:37.55 | beandog | iron man is meh |
| 18:39.46 | mindjuju | i kinda liked the first one |
| 18:39.56 | influx | oh man iron man 2 is on friday? |
| 18:40.06 | mindjuju | influx, i think so |
| 18:40.12 | beandog | I saw the Lightning Thief last night |
| 18:40.18 | beandog | That movie was about as good as Eragon. |
| 18:40.20 | mindjuju | twas good? |
| 18:40.32 | mindjuju | influx, it is this friday |
| 18:40.36 | mindjuju | never saw eragon |
| 18:40.52 | beandog | mindjuju, it actually got better as it progressed, but it was still .... eh, I dunno. It was okay. |
| 18:40.58 | beandog | I wanna go see How to Train your Dragon again |
| 18:41.12 | beandog | just gotta find someone to drag with me |
| 18:41.22 | beandog | I dunno if I can get my lil bro to sit down the whole time |
| 18:41.38 | mindjuju | it's funny you say that, i was going to take corban to see that on saturday, but now i'm not sure schedule will allow |
| 18:41.42 | mindjuju | but i'm going to really try |
| 18:41.43 | influx | Hmm. Maybe I'll do Flogging Molly & Iron Man 2 on Friday. |
| 18:42.02 | mindjuju | the theater isn't too far, the one over by university mall, so i might still try |
| 18:42.19 | beandog | mindjuju, I recommend 3D if you can hack it |
| 18:42.54 | mindjuju | i wish i could rememeber the name of that theater. it does have 3d |
| 18:43.02 | mindjuju | it's like university carbuncle or something like that |
| 18:43.08 | mindjuju | except not carbuncle of course |
| 18:43.48 | *** join/#uphpu romanovic_ (~romanovic@c-24-10-213-127.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 18:45.59 | utahcon | Alright boys and girls... |
| 18:46.07 | utahcon | if you were going to write a web service |
| 18:46.26 | utahcon | what would you use... REST, SOAP, Other? |
| 18:46.32 | mgeary | REST |
| 18:46.47 | utahcon | be prepared to defend your anwsers |
| 18:47.24 | utahcon | any votes for XML-RPC? |
| 18:47.29 | mgeary | "The largest known implementation of a system conforming to the REST architectural style is the World Wide Web." |
| 18:48.53 | mgeary | utahcon: what can you tell us about the needs of your webservice? |
| 18:49.08 | utahcon | mgeary: what do you want to know I am an open book |
| 18:49.19 | utahcon | I have no idea what I want other than... easy to use, and fast ;) |
| 18:49.23 | mgeary | what does your webservice need to do? give me examples |
| 18:49.45 | utahcon | It will be used to both give and take data from the service. |
| 18:50.00 | utahcon | um... |
| 18:50.02 | mgeary | can you be a bit more concrete? |
| 18:50.15 | utahcon | Sure... think foursquare and twitter. Same idea. |
| 18:50.30 | utahcon | Does that help? |
| 18:50.32 | mgeary | no |
| 18:50.34 | utahcon | um |
| 18:50.37 | mgeary | give me an example |
| 18:50.39 | jsmith | What types of data are you transmitting across said service? |
| 18:50.41 | jsmith | Objects? |
| 18:50.49 | jsmith | Remote procedure calls? |
| 18:50.56 | jsmith | Arbitrary data? |
| 18:51.03 | utahcon | IDK yet |
| 18:51.06 | utahcon | still working that out |
| 18:51.14 | utahcon | I guess that has a lot to do with what I pick |
| 18:51.25 | jsmith | It's hard to say "X is the best way to transmit Y" if you don't know what Y is |
| 18:51.37 | mgeary | yeah |
| 18:51.56 | mgeary | but i will say that Google appears to be on the REST train |
| 18:52.00 | mgeary | fwiw |
| 18:53.09 | fungus | SOAP has better discoverability (wsdl), enforced structure and rules, and is widely used (better interoperation). |
| 18:53.10 | mgeary | it's nice to be able to do something like http://services.google.com/translate/api2.0/translate?q=<query> |
| 18:53.11 | mindjuju | i might be able to bridge some here |
| 18:53.26 | fungus | REST is simpler, faster, and more flexible |
| 18:53.54 | mindjuju | so if its the project i'm thinking of jsmith, they want to make something similar to an exisiting application called 4square |
| 18:54.03 | mindjuju | where you get to be the mayor of a geogrphical location |
| 18:54.07 | mindjuju | taking data from teh cell phone |
| 18:54.16 | mindjuju | geogrpahical data, AFAIK |
| 18:54.23 | utahcon | mindjuju: is on the right track |
| 18:54.28 | mindjuju | so that data would need to be passed to the web service |
| 18:54.37 | mindjuju | i'm pretty sure it'll prolly be a lat / long |
| 18:55.03 | mindjuju | how thats obtained from the cell phone though, that i don't know |
| 18:55.18 | mindjuju | but i would guess it is just numbers |
| 18:56.14 | utahcon | mindjuju: actually it is more likely to be a scan of a barcode, so just a alphanumeric number, and of course of user deets sent across the line |
| 18:56.23 | utahcon | in the mobile scenario |
| 18:56.57 | utahcon | the non-mobile will be the user deets, and some values like an achievement id... |
| 18:57.09 | utahcon | so right now, nothing too involved |
| 18:57.11 | mindjuju | so see, i'm not seeing anything complex about what you're sending the we service |
| 18:57.36 | mindjuju | yeah, so passing back to mgeary, he's passing back strings and doubles |
| 18:57.36 | utahcon | mindjuju: right, but I want to make sure I am able to flex the complexity if needed, in the future. |
| 18:58.00 | mindjuju | at least, it seems like lat/long are done with decimals |
| 18:58.40 | mindjuju | well, you could always build additional methods to be used in the web service |
| 18:59.14 | mindjuju | so for today, let's say, just something that records lat/long, tomorrow you're doing that and some comment, right? |
| 19:00.34 | utahcon | mindjuju: sure |
| 19:02.00 | macnewbold | utahcon: don't believe the "better interoperation" line with regard to soap, it isn't all its' cracked up to be (no offense, fungus) - MS has their own SOAP stuff that "extends" the truly standard stuff and it gets into fuzzy territory |
| 19:02.15 | macnewbold | trying to get PHP soap tools to play nice with the MS ones was a headache |
| 19:02.25 | macnewbold | i'd vote for REST personally, |
| 19:02.30 | macnewbold | but XML-RPC has some virtues too |
| 19:04.30 | utahcon | thoughsts? " Data that needs to be secure should never be sent as parameters in URIs. And large amounts of data, like that in detailed purchase orders (POs), can quickly become cumbersome or even out of bounds within a URI." |
| 19:04.48 | utahcon | that is pro SOAP ^^ |
| 19:06.27 | jsmith | I've used SOAP and REST and even XMLRPC before, and each have their uses. |
| 19:06.38 | jsmith | Again, it boils down to what you're trying to send |
| 19:07.40 | utahcon | hmmm... good to know... thanks guys |
| 19:07.47 | mindjuju | utahcon, what phone are you writting this app for? |
| 19:07.52 | mindjuju | iphone? android? |
| 19:07.56 | utahcon | mindjuju: Android... |
| 19:08.11 | utahcon | would like to do iPhone eventually, but I might leave that to the API and community ;) |
| 19:08.35 | utahcon | primarily because I don't want to fork out the $$ to dev on the phone |
| 19:08.50 | mindjuju | so utahcon, what you'll need to find out first is, how does the android provide you the developer geolocation data |
| 19:09.40 | mindjuju | you may want to touch base with carmony, even though he's iphone, i think one of his apps does geolocation |
| 19:09.55 | carmony | hrm? |
| 19:09.59 | mindjuju | so he may know what it looks like, how best to transport, etc |
| 19:10.02 | carmony | I see web services are being discussed |
| 19:10.09 | mindjuju | carmony, doesn't dating dna do gelocation? |
| 19:10.13 | carmony | aye |
| 19:10.32 | mindjuju | thought so, so when your app asks the iphone for it's location, what does the iphone return? |
| 19:10.37 | mindjuju | lat / long ? |
| 19:10.50 | carmony | yes, 99% sure |
| 19:10.55 | carmony | let me check my APIs |
| 19:11.00 | mindjuju | awesome, thx! |
| 19:11.19 | carmony | yeah, lat/lng |
| 19:12.46 | mindjuju | so utahcon, the android might present the data to you like this |
| 19:12.47 | mindjuju | 49.5000°,-123.5000° |
| 19:12.59 | mindjuju | this page shows the 3 formats |
| 19:12.59 | mindjuju | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographic_coordinate_system |
| 19:13.18 | mindjuju | though beyond this, i don't know much about it |
| 19:13.29 | carmony | I should do a blog post on dealing with lat/lng |
| 19:13.38 | mindjuju | that would be cool! |
| 19:13.53 | carmony | getting the distances between two points can be a pain |
| 19:14.04 | mindjuju | yeah, i think that formula is on that same page too |
| 19:14.06 | carmony | there are about 10 formulas to do it |
| 19:14.10 | carmony | online |
| 19:14.16 | carmony | 2 only really work |
| 19:14.24 | carmony | and 1 is bullet proof |
| 19:14.52 | carmony | I have a mysql stored procedure that does it for me |
| 19:15.10 | mindjuju | so in the end utahcon, i think if you get the data as DD (with the decimal), it'll just be 2 double |
| 19:15.37 | mindjuju | so carmony, what type of web service are you running to catch? |
| 19:15.45 | mindjuju | rest, soap, xmlrpc? |
| 19:15.53 | carmony | soap |
| 19:16.24 | carmony | but I like to refer to what I use for SOAP as more of a "simple soap" |
| 19:16.30 | carmony | I don't get all crazy with it |
| 19:17.39 | carmony | by default, I tend to use SOAP unless one of the following: |
| 19:17.54 | carmony | 1) heavy (and I mean HEAVY) amounts of traffic will pass over this API |
| 19:25.00 | macnewbold | utahcon: it sounds like some of those comments about what belongs in URIs are implying that a lot of REST data goes in the URI, which is not entirely true |
| 19:26.03 | macnewbold | mostly i just see IDs and information abuot the action being called (edit blog post #7) with all the real data goin gin the POST rather than the url |
| 19:27.50 | carmony | 2) developers will want to hand parse/read the results from the web service |
| 19:28.15 | carmony | SOAP is nice because it has all these tools built around it. If you don't use soap, you can to make your own tools |
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| 19:29.53 | macnewbold | SOAP is extremely bloated in my opinion. makes things a lot harder than they need to be for a simple api. |
| 19:30.11 | carmony | naw, not if you know how to throw up a SOAP API quickly :) |
| 19:30.16 | macnewbold | REST can be nice cause instead of soap tools you can use something simple like json etc. |
| 19:30.36 | macnewbold | carmony: mostly i've been on the side of consuming SOAP rather than serving it, and it was a pain in my patookus |
| 19:30.36 | fungus | I prefer REST as well, I was just trying to point out some of the benefits of SOAP |
| 19:31.05 | carmony | macnewbold: Are you using a library to consume SOAp? or do it by hand? |
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| 19:31.15 | macnewbold | as a developer, i by far prefer attaching to REST protocols than soap. I'm using the php5 soapclient stuff. |
| 19:35.21 | jsmith | Sure... I prefer attaching to REST as well, but find that the services that implement SOAP tend to do a better job of APIs, etc. |
| 19:35.39 | jsmith | (They tend to be less lazy and more strict about types, invalid data, etc.) |
| 19:39.46 | macnewbold | yeah, that's probably true - sometimes REST folk do less validation, which can lead to unexpected results rather than useful error messages |
| 19:40.38 | jsmith | macnewbold: It's also been my experience that they're more likely to be prone to XSS, CSRF, and SQL injection problems |
| 19:40.54 | jsmith | macnewbold: A lot of that probably goes back to laziness though |
| 19:41.04 | macnewbold | yeah, because of less validation, you could see that i'm sure, depends how the input from the API gets used |
| 19:41.20 | jsmith | "I can't be bothered to learn about SOAP, so I'll make a hackish REST interface and call itgood" |
| 19:41.23 | macnewbold | of course, if you're doing REST right, it's using all the same validation rules etc as anything submitted any other way |
| 19:41.28 | jsmith | s/itgood/it good/ |
| 19:41.34 | jsmith | macnewbold: Of course! |
| 19:41.39 | macnewbold | so it would only be vulnerable if your other stuff was too |
| 19:41.47 | jsmith | But that's the difference between theory and reality |
| 19:41.52 | macnewbold | yeah, totally |
| 19:42.03 | macnewbold | when done right, REST is awesome imho, but it can be done wrong too |
| 19:42.05 | jsmith | All I'm saying is that in *my own* experience, people who use REST are more likely not to validate the data |
| 19:42.12 | jsmith | Sounds just like PHP, eh? |
| 19:42.28 | jsmith | Those who do it right, do it right. The others fail, often spectacularly! |
| 19:42.32 | macnewbold | there are totally ways to do soap wrong too, but because it is already strict, you don't run into as many issues |
| 19:42.40 | jsmith | Exactly |
| 19:43.10 | macnewbold | though some of them i've seen just work around it by using a vague type, like a text string, and overloading it to expect something specific that they don't validate |
| 19:43.22 | macnewbold | like they use a string so the field could be an int, a float, or a string, |
| 19:43.36 | macnewbold | but don't do any proper validation on it when they try to use it in those different ways |
| 19:43.55 | macnewbold | i've seen some making hacks for making things nullable or not, etc. despite there being right ways to do it |
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| 19:44.43 | macnewbold | and the MS-specific extensions were just a pain to get working in PHP, cause there's not a lot of code out there to deal with them, you have to extend the base classes in PHP with weird stuff and call those instead of the regular php classes |
| 19:51.33 | beandog | what is web services, exactly |
| 19:51.45 | beandog | sending data / requests over the intarwebs? |
| 19:53.53 | jsmith | beandog: The easiest way to describe it is in terms of function calls. |
| 19:54.07 | beandog | ok? |
| 19:54.09 | jsmith | Let's say I have this function called "GetMovieInfo", and you want to call it |
| 19:54.16 | jsmith | Pretty easy, right? |
| 19:54.35 | jsmith | Think of web services as me having this function called GetMovieInfo that runs on *my* server, and you're calling it remotely |
| 19:54.50 | jsmith | That's the "Remote Procedure Call" (or RPC) part of web services |
| 19:55.42 | jsmith | Now how you pass the parameters to my function and what you get back in return depends on the mechanism you're using |
| 19:55.53 | jsmith | XML-RPC and SOAP use nice clean (read: complicated and over-engineered) XML to communicate about different data types (integers, strings, booleans, objects) and responses. |
| 19:57.16 | jsmith | REST (Representational State Transfer) attempts to provide the same sort of thing, only in a much easier way for consumers to use |
| 19:57.44 | beandog | ah, sorry, stepped away |
| 19:57.45 | beandog | thats cool |
| 19:57.54 | beandog | jsmith, so basically different web protocols then |
| 19:57.55 | jsmith | (You typically pass parameters as plain text as GET or POST strings, and receive the response back in plain text as well) |
| 19:57.59 | mindjuju | beandog, to give you an example of a webservice, the company i work for has an application. now that application has a tab where a catalog is displayed |
| 19:58.17 | mindjuju | the webservice i wrote allows for tha t application to contact my web server and pull a current catalog |
| 19:58.38 | mindjuju | it allows them to do other things too, like order things out of the catalog, etc |
| 19:59.31 | beandog | so what serves up the requests though |
| 19:59.38 | beandog | is it still your http server? |
| 20:00.06 | jsmith | Sure... |
| 20:00.25 | mindjuju | yup |
| 20:00.31 | mindjuju | but here is the catch |
| 20:00.38 | mindjuju | it DOESN'T serve it up as HTTP |
| 20:00.54 | mindjuju | so if you navigate to the location of where the web service resides in a browser, it's not going to work |
| 20:01.07 | mindjuju | it serves the data up in XML |
| 20:01.17 | beandog | Oh okay |
| 20:01.21 | mindjuju | and the application on the client desktop it parses the XML |
| 20:01.35 | beandog | So the protocols are really just XML document types then? |
| 20:01.53 | mindjuju | i'm sorry, let me correct that, cause i'm leading you wrongly |
| 20:01.58 | mindjuju | it doesn't serve it up as HTML |
| 20:02.02 | mindjuju | it uses HTTP |
| 20:02.05 | jsmith | beandog: They *can* be XML |
| 20:02.07 | mindjuju | to transfer the data |
| 20:02.23 | jsmith | beandog: REST typically doesn't use XML, but XML-RPC and SOAP use XML "envelopes" to describe the data |
| 20:02.41 | mindjuju | my web service is using SOAP |
| 20:02.56 | beandog | Okay |
| 20:02.58 | beandog | Interesting. |
| 20:03.52 | jsmith | beandog: If you get interested in Web Services, Amazon has some great tutorials (and some real services you can use, like getting product information, etc.) |
| 20:04.41 | beandog | jsmith, well I'm just curious because on one of my sites I need to provide some data sets of information, but it's all just me providing it ... |
| 20:04.49 | beandog | Ill have to look into it |
| 20:06.12 | beandog | Okay |
| 20:06.27 | beandog | So what would a normal setup be, you would have one URI that users access, and then they just pass in their requests? |
| 20:08.07 | herlo | macnewbold: ping |
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| 20:11.19 | macnewbold | herlo: pong |
| 20:16.05 | herlo | macnewbold: pm |
| 20:17.17 | macnewbold | thanks |
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| 21:16.15 | romanovic | mmm |
| 21:18.21 | jsmith | romanovic: Yummy! Don't tell mindjuju though... |
| 21:20.42 | mindjuju | wait, what! |
| 21:20.50 | mindjuju | whereis romanovic? |
| 21:21.54 | mindjuju | romanovic, you connected via cellphone? |
| 21:22.02 | romanovic | up at hill. this is the first time i've actually stopped at popeyes up here though |
| 21:22.05 | romanovic | yeah |
| 21:22.32 | mindjuju | i was lucky enough once to have carmony buy some popeyes and bring it down to UPHPU meet |
| 21:22.37 | mindjuju | but that was a long time ago |
| 21:22.42 | mindjuju | seems like years |
| 21:23.17 | jsmith | romanovic: Bring some back for mindjuju! |
| 21:24.53 | romanovic | i wonder how they keep stocked, do they send trucks out to the lone utah location? |
| 21:26.03 | mindjuju | sitting next to a biscuit and some spicy chicken |
| 21:26.09 | mindjuju | and a lemonade |
| 21:26.55 | romanovic | mmm. i am tempted to come back up here again |
| 21:27.30 | mindjuju | punk |
| 21:27.30 | romanovic | i couldnt handle more than one side dish today |
| 21:27.44 | romanovic | mindjuju, where do you work? |
| 21:27.48 | mindjuju | draper |
| 21:28.00 | mindjuju | :( |
| 21:28.10 | romanovic | you live down that way as well? |
| 21:28.23 | mindjuju | are you down here? |
| 21:28.38 | romanovic | i live in sandy |
| 21:29.31 | mindjuju | next time you're at hill, let me know and i'll buy something and meet you somewhere in sandy |
| 21:29.45 | romanovic | heh, ok |
| 21:30.06 | romanovic | i might be making a return trip to the doctor next week |
| 21:30.40 | romanovic | on hill |
| 21:32.33 | mindjuju | i wish they had an online menu |
| 21:32.37 | mindjuju | hard to know what to ask for |
| 21:32.50 | romanovic | i'm at popeyes for another 5 or 10 minutes, if you wanna make any requests today... |
| 21:32.51 | mindjuju | and this is the colsest they've got |
| 21:32.52 | mindjuju | http://www.popeyes.com/menu.php |
| 21:33.30 | mindjuju | all i got with me is $2 and an emergency check, not enough for a meal |
| 21:33.39 | mindjuju | though i could rive around for an ATM |
| 21:34.11 | mindjuju | where in sandy? |
| 21:35.24 | romanovic | i live near jordan commons |
| 21:37.17 | mindjuju | let's do it next time, i'll order enough to have left over at work for a couple days |
| 21:37.20 | mindjuju | :) |
| 21:38.06 | romanovic | haha, sounds good. i'll let you know when i plan to come up again. |
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| 22:07.08 | olds | 37 days _psychic_ |
| 22:07.47 | _psychic_ | woooo |
| 22:07.56 | _psychic_ | olds: did you see news/rumors about Henry |
| 22:08.20 | olds | I saw the rumors about Benzema/Ribery |
| 22:08.28 | olds | what about Henry? |
| 22:08.35 | _psychic_ | Might come to NY |
| 22:08.45 | olds | finally? |
| 22:08.57 | olds | there's been rumblings of that for a few years |
| 22:09.06 | olds | I hope he does |
| 22:09.12 | _psychic_ | http://www.mls-daily.com/2010/05/henry-likely-to-join-mls-this-summer-dc.html |
| 22:09.14 | olds | he's one player I'd love to see play in person |
| 22:09.51 | olds | he'll dominate in the MLS |
| 22:10.02 | olds | he's much more of a handful to play against than becks |
| 22:11.07 | olds | that'll be awesome though |
| 22:13.07 | olds | do you think Charlie Davies is going to be on our final 23 headed for SA ? |
| 22:15.10 | _psychic_ | no idea |
| 22:15.12 | _psychic_ | I thought no way |
| 22:15.24 | _psychic_ | I'd like to see him go, just to buck fate |
| 22:18.48 | olds | yea, too bad findley didn't make more of the opportunities presented to him |
| 22:19.18 | _psychic_ | It's true. |
| 22:19.21 | _psychic_ | He's got time, though. |
| 22:19.25 | olds | yea |
| 22:19.31 | _psychic_ | Probably for the best. |
| 22:19.47 | _psychic_ | I just hope Landycakes won't choke this round. |
| 22:19.52 | olds | me too |
| 22:20.11 | olds | if we get a point out of the England game I'll be ecstatic |
| 22:27.29 | _psychic_ | yup |
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| 23:26.32 | *** join/#uphpu Jacob_Kerr (~Jacob_Ker@c-174-52-224-142.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 23:26.42 | Jacob_Kerr | Hey you MySQL query gurus! |
| 23:27.51 | Jacob_Kerr | I have data in a table called shipto and I want to take columns from shipto named phone and company_name and push them to the customer table. There is an id named customer_id in the shipto table to match to id in the customer table I can do this all with one query right? |
| 23:28.22 | Jacob_Kerr | The column names are the same in both tables. |
| 23:34.28 | mindjuju | i'm no eggyknap, but I am here to tell you jacob_kerr that it is possible |
| 23:34.42 | mindjuju | and for the lost cost price of $5, i'll tell ya! |
| 23:34.47 | Jacob_Kerr | I think I found it though. |
| 23:34.50 | mindjuju | jk |
| 23:34.52 | mindjuju | here ya go |
| 23:34.53 | mindjuju | http://www.w3schools.com/sql/sql_select_into.asp |
| 23:35.06 | Jacob_Kerr | Sweet thanks man :) |
| 23:35.41 | Jacob_Kerr | Even better then what I found :) |
| 23:35.45 | Jacob_Kerr | Thanks man. |
| 23:36.10 | mindjuju | if it's really helpful, you can add one to my karma by ~mindjuju++ |
| 23:36.34 | mindjuju | right now, if i die, i can reincarnate into a windows ME network admin, pretty low :( |
| 23:38.35 | Jacob_Kerr | LOL |
| 23:38.49 | Jacob_Kerr | ~mindjuju++ |
| 23:39.25 | mindjuju | ~karma mindjuju |
| 23:39.25 | ibot | mindjuju has karma of 22 |
| 23:39.34 | mindjuju | yipee! i'm out of windows ME hell! |
| 23:39.41 | mindjuju | ~karma fungus |
| 23:39.41 | ibot | fungus has karma of 33 |
| 23:39.51 | Jacob_Kerr | hehe |
| 23:40.12 | mindjuju | yup, he's freakin' Mother Teressa with how friendly he is with his uber tech skills |
| 23:42.00 | Jacob_Kerr | Anything wrong with this query? UPDATE `string`, customer SET customer.phone = `string`.phone WHERE customer.id = `string'.customer_id |
| 23:42.27 | Jacob_Kerr | sheesh who name a table string lol.. |
| 23:43.10 | Jacob_Kerr | oh well hope it works it affected 2460 rows.. |
| 23:43.44 | Jacob_Kerr | sweetness it did :) |
| 23:43.49 | mindjuju | :) |
| 23:46.36 | Jacob_Kerr | One day I will get all these queries down. |
| 23:46.55 | mindjuju | if that day comes, you'd be the first |
| 23:47.04 | mindjuju | i still often refer to my sql cheatsheats |
| 23:47.20 | Jacob_Kerr | Yeah so many things to remember eh. |
| 23:50.51 | Jacob_Kerr | I'm getting better some things that use to take me like 4 hours I do in 2 now :) |
| 23:54.19 | Jacob_Kerr | Got to love freelance.. I have to bug people all the time pay up. WHERE'S MY MONEY! |
| 23:54.47 | mindjuju | yup, true that |
| 23:54.57 | mindjuju | there are several ways to do that though |
| 23:55.06 | Jacob_Kerr | Yeah |
| 23:55.08 | mindjuju | 50% 50%, etc |
| 23:55.18 | mindjuju | that seems to work best for me |
| 23:55.19 | Jacob_Kerr | Yeah that's what I do. |
| 23:55.29 | Jacob_Kerr | But they do not like to pay the last 50% sometime. |
| 23:55.30 | mindjuju | 50% now, 50% on completion, though i'm flexible |
| 23:56.27 | mindjuju | yeah, i've got a contract out that's owed several hundred dollars, think i'll email the guy again |
| 23:56.42 | Jacob_Kerr | Yeah i will email them and call every once in awhile and offer some free work sometimes just to get them to pay. |
| 23:57.19 | Jacob_Kerr | But some of my clients are great I never have to bug them. Wish I had like 1,000 of those |
