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| 15:29.00 | macnewbold | ~rlart |
| 15:29.01 | ibot | frags itimber with his BFG9000 |
| 15:29.13 | macnewbold | that was random |
| 15:30.11 | itimber | ~rlart |
| 15:30.12 | ibot | chops jsmith-away in half with a free AOL CD |
| 15:30.23 | itimber | morning mac |
| 15:34.05 | carmony | ~lart macnewbold |
| 15:34.05 | ibot | rm -rf's macnewbold |
| 15:34.19 | carmony | I like larting w/o the r ;) |
| 15:37.57 | macnewbold | morning itimber |
| 15:38.01 | macnewbold | ~greet carmony |
| 15:38.02 | ibot | ACTION dumps a bucket of cold oatmeal on carmony |
| 15:38.30 | macnewbold | anyone needing some tuesday morning hilarity should check out either http://live.lmgtfy.com/ or http://clientsfromhell.tumblr.com/ |
| 15:38.39 | carmony | lol, sounds good :) |
| 15:39.01 | carmony | how you doing macnewbold? at the last meeting you seemed kinda worn out & tired :P |
| 15:39.29 | macnewbold | well, i'm kinda worn out and tired |
| 15:39.32 | macnewbold | but otherwise, great |
| 15:40.00 | macnewbold | just lots of stress at work lately... several projects all on my plate at once and wanting everything done tomorrow |
| 15:40.21 | macnewbold | and when i sit down to work on one of them, i get interrupted for about 4 hours a day |
| 15:40.25 | carmony | macnewbold: I know how that is, I just got through a month like that |
| 15:40.26 | macnewbold | so the going is slow |
| 15:41.01 | carmony | lol, well if you ever need a place to retreat to, you can come work up here at my office ;) I'll even take you out to lunch :P |
| 15:41.10 | macnewbold | hm.... tempting... |
| 15:41.14 | macnewbold | how far north is your office? |
| 15:41.28 | carmony | haha, I'm right off the Roy exit |
| 15:41.38 | macnewbold | how far north is roy? |
| 15:41.49 | carmony | so about 35-45 mins north from downtown |
| 15:41.52 | macnewbold | (when i go north, it's usually to logan) |
| 15:41.54 | macnewbold | ah, okay |
| 15:42.11 | macnewbold | i'll let you know - if things get really bad i might do that |
| 15:42.19 | macnewbold | i've already pretty much stopped answering my phone |
| 15:42.37 | carmony | However, today I can't do it since I'm taking my wife to lunch for her birthday :) |
| 15:42.45 | carmony | but any other day pretty much ;) so just let me know |
| 15:46.03 | macnewbold | haha |
| 15:46.12 | macnewbold | wife trumps, fo sho |
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| 16:55.52 | supernovia | anyone know much about afp-php? |
| 16:56.26 | carmony | I think josephscott might |
| 16:56.48 | supernovia | yeah? I was thinking josephscott or mgeary maybe |
| 16:57.14 | supernovia | just have a dumb question we can't seem to find online -trying to set up the connect function and can't seem to sort out how to call it in afp |
| 16:59.06 | mgeary | supernovia: you mean amf-php? |
| 16:59.28 | supernovia | ah yeah sorry, hehe. I hadn't even heard of it before about 20 minutes ago :-o |
| 16:59.47 | mgeary | i've worked with it before, but it has been a while |
| 16:59.50 | supernovia | amf, goodness, I feel dumb. oh well |
| 17:00.00 | mgeary | are you having issues with the Flash side, or the PHP side? |
| 17:00.26 | supernovia | the gateway side of it really |
| 17:00.42 | supernovia | I think. :-/ |
| 17:01.13 | supernovia | he's got some example code and it seems a little funky |
| 17:01.55 | supernovia | anyway I really just wanted to ask what method you would normally use to connect |
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| 17:03.15 | supernovia | this is in the php. sorry. |
| 17:04.09 | supernovia | and I know nothing about this amf connection thing; is it really that different than what we'd normally use in plain old php? |
| 17:04.49 | mgeary | you know, it's been so long, i don't really recall the specifics anymore. I had a small reference project with sample code, but i'm not finding it now for some reason :/ |
| 17:04.54 | mgeary | http://www.amfphp.org/ |
| 17:05.00 | mgeary | that's a good site to follow |
| 17:05.08 | mgeary | also, an invaluable tool is Charles Proxy |
| 17:05.12 | DexterTheDragon | if you can read anything. yikes |
| 17:05.16 | mgeary | http://www.charlesproxy.com/ |
| 17:05.22 | mgeary | DexterTheDragon: yeah, awful type |
| 17:05.52 | supernovia | ugh yeah that is awful |
| 17:07.45 | supernovia | so it's in the constructor. I think the constructor example they've got must just be wonky. it looks weird. I don't even know where they got it. |
| 17:08.21 | supernovia | but I thought maybe the weirdness was needed for amf-php. going to assume it isn't and proceed that way |
| 17:08.23 | carmony | yuck, lol |
| 17:08.36 | carmony | I've actually used firebug to fix a site's CSS so I can read it better :P |
| 17:08.45 | supernovia | heh yeah me too |
| 17:09.24 | supernovia | http://brettterpstra.com/share/readability2.html |
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| 17:10.12 | supernovia | this one's a nice shortcut |
| 17:11.17 | DexterTheDragon | thats pretty cool supernovia |
| 17:11.57 | supernovia | yeah, works very nicely :) |
| 17:12.15 | supernovia | better than the original readability mod, IMHO |
| 17:12.24 | carmony | hrm... to tweet, or not to tweet.... |
| 17:12.27 | supernovia | er, bookmarklet (sorry I am typing in class) |
| 17:12.40 | supernovia | yeah I wondered the same thing, carmony |
| 17:12.54 | supernovia | since the guy seems worried about toe-stepping I opted not to tweet |
| 17:13.07 | carmony | LOL, I bet the subject is vastly different from mine... |
| 17:13.12 | supernovia | oh |
| 17:13.16 | supernovia | :-p |
| 17:13.17 | carmony | "Preping a homebrew #php framework for other developers to see is like franticly scrubbing out underwear stains before a honeymoon." |
| 17:13.53 | mindjuju | i don't think i can watch this series, it's much too cool |
| 17:13.54 | mindjuju | http://www.thrfeed.com/2010/03/doctor-who-trailer-video-.html |
| 17:13.54 | supernovia | lol |
| 17:14.31 | mindjuju | the dr who i know and loved was always a touch hokey |
| 17:14.35 | carmony | lol, it was just a funny thought as I'm going through and fixing some rough edges on this framework |
| 17:14.36 | carmony | ;) |
| 17:15.32 | herlo | mindjuju: the new dr who looks awesome |
| 17:15.45 | DexterTheDragon | mindjuju: I'm hoping its awesome |
| 17:15.57 | mindjuju | it odes look awesome |
| 17:15.59 | mindjuju | can't watch it |
| 17:16.01 | herlo | mindjuju: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpbmMhNe6aA |
| 17:16.06 | mindjuju | that's not the dr who i love |
| 17:16.17 | herlo | heh |
| 17:16.19 | mindjuju | where's his scarf for crying out loud! |
| 17:16.21 | herlo | mindjuju: you have to try... |
| 17:16.22 | DexterTheDragon | mindjuju: have you seen any of the 'new series'? |
| 17:16.29 | herlo | mindjuju: he has a bow tie |
| 17:16.32 | mindjuju | nope |
| 17:16.38 | herlo | mindjuju: you are missing out man |
| 17:17.01 | mindjuju | dr who = http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/gallery/mobile/288/tom_baker.jpg |
| 17:17.07 | mindjuju | else, fail |
| 17:17.37 | herlo | mindjuju: you obviously have closed your mind to it, but the new Dr Who is why I like it at all |
| 17:18.21 | herlo | without Christopher Eccleston, David Tennant and Matt Smith, Dr. Who would have been hard for me to watch... |
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| 17:20.25 | DexterTheDragon | SunSparc: http://bit.ly/ci5g59 |
| 17:20.31 | DexterTheDragon | take that moon |
| 17:20.49 | SunSparc | lol |
| 17:22.03 | SunSparc | That is a cool photo. |
| 17:22.34 | supernovia | alright, I'm outta here again.. |
| 17:23.04 | supernovia | thanks mgeary & sorry for the fairly uninformed question :) |
| 17:23.23 | mgeary | sorry i'm not more help. I really ought to take the "flash weenie" part out of my factoid |
| 17:23.34 | mgeary | i don't like Flash very much... |
| 17:23.43 | mgeary | ~mgeary |
| 17:23.43 | ibot | from memory, mgeary is Michael Geary, residing in Provo and working in Orem. a Flash Weenie. NOT this dude: http://www.panchang.com/aboutus/?tab=200&contentid=127, or a person who does not believe vinegar is a condiment |
| 17:25.12 | carmony | amen mgeary ! |
| 17:25.23 | carmony | vinegar.... is... eww... :P |
| 17:27.11 | mgeary | aren't we overdue for a discussion on guns? or Wal*Mart? Or even the recent healthcare bill... Anything but vinegar again |
| 17:27.24 | carmony | so today I was super excited for lunch, going w/ the wife to Sonora Grill :) |
| 17:28.38 | SunSparc | That cool new healthcare bill will allow me to buy tasty vinegar at Wal*Mart on my way to shoot some guns. |
| 17:29.18 | carmony | then her crazy grandma, who we shall not go into how she is crazy, called and invited herself to lunch too, so now instead of an awesome relaxing meal, it will be awkward lunch where I'll probably get dragged into driving her somewhere :P |
| 17:31.19 | macnewbold | carmony: i'm sorry to hear that |
| 17:31.34 | macnewbold | nothing quite like getting a third wheel on a wife date for her birthday |
| 17:32.34 | carmony | its all good |
| 17:32.43 | carmony | my wife told me how the phone convo went |
| 17:33.19 | herlo | carmony: the answer is: 'Oh, grandma, I really can't, you see, I was going to take my wife home and bed her after we were done here..." |
| 17:34.28 | carmony | Wife: Hey grandma, how are you? Granda: Good, happy birthday, what are you doing for lunch? Wife: Oh, Justin is taking me to lunch at Sonora Grill? Grandma: Oh yeah? What time? Wife: 1:30, why? (thinking her grandma might come by and say hi at work) Grandma: So I can come, silly. Hey, I need to go, see you at 1:30. *click* |
| 17:34.31 | carmony | herlo: lol |
| 17:35.13 | herlo | carmony: "then, I have tons of work to get done before my 5pm deadline, and that's going to cut it really close!" :-P |
| 17:35.51 | carmony | herlo: haha, that is based on the concept that it is possible to reason with her grandma ;) |
| 17:36.09 | herlo | true |
| 17:36.25 | mindjuju | carmony should cut with the grain, not against, if you're paying, say you want to have a special lunch with sweetie, if granny pays, order Alsaskan king crab, lobster, porterhouse |
| 17:36.51 | mindjuju | and give her a wink when you say thnx when the bill arrives |
| 17:36.56 | mindjuju | that should fix that |
| 17:37.19 | herlo | mindjuju: that implies you go somewhere expensive |
| 17:37.19 | carmony | she is really really nice, and almost always fine to visit with, just every now and then she just makes you sigh and shake your head |
| 17:37.27 | carmony | mindjuju: she almost always pays :P |
| 17:37.35 | carmony | she is retired and rich :P |
| 17:37.42 | mindjuju | well there ya go |
| 17:37.51 | mindjuju | let her cover and go some wheres nice |
| 17:38.09 | mindjuju | then set up another privately and take your honey there for special private dinner out |
| 17:38.31 | carmony | thats what I'll have to do mindjuju :) |
| 17:38.55 | mindjuju | i'm just teasin', i'd better get back to work |
| 17:38.57 | mindjuju | ...sigh... |
| 17:39.06 | herlo | mindjuju: watch the new Dr. Who!! |
| 17:39.22 | mindjuju | no scarf, no watch |
| 17:39.23 | SunSparc | Wait a minute, impromptu Geek Lunch on carmony's wife's grandma! |
| 17:39.45 | SunSparc | :) |
| 17:39.50 | mindjuju | :) |
| 17:39.51 | carmony | LOL |
| 17:40.00 | carmony | that is this week, correct? |
| 17:40.06 | herlo | SunSparc: http://blog.utos.org/2010/03/16/march-2010-geek-lunch-zupas-and-a-mix-of-podcasting-to-boot/ |
| 17:40.16 | herlo | carmony: ^^ :) |
| 17:40.55 | SunSparc | herlo: Maybe we can get carmony's wife's grandma to pay for it. |
| 17:41.13 | carmony | man, last time we had the Weber/Davis geek lunch, I was outnumbered by a bunch of ruby guys ;) |
| 17:41.18 | herlo | SunSparc: hehe |
| 17:41.34 | herlo | carmony: you should bring some others with you... |
| 17:41.42 | herlo | Entourage a la Carmony |
| 17:41.46 | mindjuju | we could talk about tasers |
| 17:41.53 | carmony | lol |
| 17:42.04 | herlo | silly tasers |
| 17:44.51 | carmony | lol, while I think every now and then there is a misuse of a taser, I think the bigger problem is people being belligerent towards police officers :P </endOfOpinion> ;) |
| 17:45.23 | mindjuju | must |
| 17:45.27 | mindjuju | resist |
| 17:45.29 | mindjuju | making |
| 17:45.31 | mindjuju | comment! |
| 17:45.58 | DexterTheDragon | just breath with me mindjuju |
| 17:46.01 | DexterTheDragon | in....... out |
| 17:46.50 | carmony | (continues to egg mindjuju on) either way, tasers don't hurt THAT bad... I mean... look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_VGX0eL2Xo |
| 17:48.32 | mindjuju | k, i'm just going to say one thing since its lunch time (/me has to work during lunch today) |
| 17:48.50 | mindjuju | but since when has bililgerence warrented a taser? |
| 17:49.17 | mindjuju | i can see the use of tasers, but i think its use is much to common |
| 17:49.36 | mindjuju | the slightest sign, then pow, a taser |
| 17:50.20 | carmony | my only reply: I agree, but on the same side, cops are in a lot more danger than before. I just wish people would show more respect and cooperate because a cop doesn't know if I have a knife, or a gun, etc. :P |
| 17:51.23 | mindjuju | that's true, but that's also escalation, and when one side escalates, the other follows -- what we need to find is a way to defuse |
| 17:51.29 | mgeary | i disagree that cops are in more danger "than before" |
| 17:52.19 | mindjuju | mgeary, in certain area, like gang areas, i can see the increase of danger |
| 17:52.31 | mindjuju | but i think your point is there too |
| 17:52.37 | mindjuju | in normal circumstances... |
| 17:52.44 | mgeary | you think it's more dangerous in East LA now than in the 60s? |
| 17:52.46 | mindjuju | if there is a normal for police, i'm not sure |
| 17:52.54 | carmony | mgeary: I make that statement without a lot of research and just with talking with a few cops I know. :P |
| 17:53.19 | mindjuju | i've got to say, i don't know much about crime in LA in the 60s |
| 17:53.20 | mindjuju | :) |
| 17:53.51 | mgeary | what evidence do these cops have for their increased danger? What's sad is that my perception is that the people who argue that cops should be allowed more liberty with tasers are the *same* people who argue against gun control |
| 17:54.22 | mindjuju | well, that's not true |
| 17:54.24 | mindjuju | i'm here |
| 17:54.43 | mgeary | no you're not |
| 17:54.50 | mindjuju | i'm not? |
| 17:55.04 | mgeary | ;) |
| 17:55.07 | carmony | mgeary: I don't know, but a good friend of my who is a police officer back east said he has had more "suspects" that were armed in the 2000s than in the 1990s |
| 17:55.29 | mindjuju | actually, i didn't see your qualifier "01What's sad is that my perception is that" |
| 17:55.57 | mgeary | i don't claim to have facts |
| 17:56.13 | mindjuju | yup, didn't see that, sorry, thought you were making an absolute statement |
| 17:56.38 | mgeary | i very rarely do that. i don't even claim that vinegar isn't a condiment. I just say i don't believe it is ;) |
| 17:56.49 | mindjuju | rofl |
| 17:57.31 | carmony | neither do I :P I just see way more news stories saying "Another Tasing Victim" and never "Belligerence is on a rise with citizens and cops", etc |
| 17:57.59 | mindjuju | well, i think belligerence is / has always been there |
| 17:58.15 | mindjuju | i just get upset when they zap a guy in a wheelchair for talking back to cops |
| 17:58.30 | carmony | mindjuju: me too, I agree with that :P |
| 17:58.48 | carmony | tasers should be used when a cop feels physically threatened, not just mad |
| 17:59.32 | mindjuju | i don't know if it is that cops need more training, or if there is a larger societal issue |
| 17:59.46 | carmony | all I know, is if I hear a cop say "stop and put your hands on the car or I'm going to taser you" that I will be doing as told :P |
| 17:59.48 | mindjuju | your point on people treatment of police is well taken too |
| 18:00.10 | carmony | I wish I had the fix :P |
| 18:00.35 | mindjuju | yeah, the fix is, we all need to move to tahiti |
| 18:00.51 | mindjuju | float around bora bora eating coconut shrip all day |
| 18:01.42 | carmony | it could be worse, in the more "dangerous" parts of Torreon Mexico, cops rolled around with semi-automatic m4s on their dirt bikes :P |
| 18:02.58 | mindjuju | well, that's not new, the first fully functional m16 i saw was in mexico in the hands of police when i was 10? maybe 12? smaller town in the middle of nowhere |
| 18:03.31 | mindjuju | think that was in sorora, but i'd have to askmy mom |
| 18:03.32 | carmony | man... I need the next hour to go quickly... |
| 18:03.43 | carmony | Tacos al Pastor calling my name... |
| 18:04.17 | mgeary | you're gonna steal your Pastor's tacos? |
| 18:04.25 | carmony | haha, yup! |
| 18:04.26 | mgeary | that's really low |
| 18:04.55 | influx | hah |
| 18:07.09 | carmony | well, if he didn't make such tempting tacos, I wouldn't steal them! |
| 18:10.37 | carmony | man, and some Battlefield Bad Company 2 is calling my name... |
| 18:10.43 | carmony | and I shouldn't play games atm... |
| 18:10.51 | carmony | got too much work to do |
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| 18:43.50 | influx | ls |
| 18:43.51 | influx | derp |
| 18:44.14 | beandog | your_mom.avi |
| 18:44.24 | influx | cd .. |
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| 18:44.30 | influx | ls |
| 18:44.36 | influx | beandog |
| 18:44.40 | beandog | :) |
| 18:44.52 | influx | :] |
| 18:45.19 | influx | What way is there of determining the user php runs as, from the command line? |
| 18:45.32 | influx | If there is a way at all. |
| 18:45.33 | mgeary | well |
| 18:45.39 | mgeary | when you run it from the command line, the user is you |
| 18:45.51 | mgeary | otherwise it runs as the webserver user |
| 18:45.59 | beandog | mgeary, not if youre running suexec/cgi |
| 18:46.01 | mgeary | on linux it's usually "apache", on Mac it's usually "www" |
| 18:46.13 | beandog | influx, check argv |
| 18:46.16 | mgeary | true. i stay away from cgi |
| 18:46.18 | beandog | [0] should be php |
| 18:46.24 | beandog | That's a start. |
| 18:46.47 | influx | Cool. |
| 18:47.09 | influx | Been running into permission issues with uploaded content in this project of mine. |
| 18:47.27 | beandog | influx, er, Im sorry, argv[0] will be the script name. |
| 18:47.39 | mgeary | one easy way to check is set a directory to 777 perms and have php touch a file in that directory |
| 18:47.46 | mgeary | then check the creator of that file |
| 18:48.08 | influx | (I sure hope that didn't actually trigger ibot) |
| 18:48.13 | mgeary | it did |
| 18:48.19 | mgeary | ~karma beandog |
| 18:48.19 | ibot | beandog has karma of 12 |
| 18:48.25 | mgeary | ~beandog-- |
| 18:48.32 | mgeary | ~karma beandog |
| 18:48.32 | ibot | beandog has karma of 11 |
| 18:48.37 | mgeary | ~beandog++ |
| 18:48.40 | influx | But does it read from actions? |
| 18:48.44 | beandog | influx, I dont think theres really any simple way, that I know of |
| 18:48.48 | mgeary | ~beandog++ |
| 18:48.57 | beandog | _ENV["_"] => /usr/bin/php |
| 18:48.57 | cycokilr | influx: depending on your apache version & distro it should tell you in the uid.conf or the httpd.conf files.. |
| 18:49.03 | mgeary | sure there is, what i just suggested ^^ |
| 18:49.06 | beandog | influx, you can check for certain env variables |
| 18:49.08 | beandog | dunno |
| 18:49.38 | beandog | _ENV["SHELL"] => /bin/bash |
| 18:49.41 | cycokilr | /etc/apache2/uid.conf <-- mine's there |
| 18:50.04 | stderr | exec("whoami") |
| 18:50.14 | influx | winrar |
| 18:50.20 | cycokilr | stderr: nice.. good call |
| 18:50.22 | influx | Thanks guys. |
| 18:50.34 | influx | Forgot about exec. |
| 18:50.39 | influx | Didn't know about whoami though. |
| 18:50.59 | stderr | passthru("whoami") if you don't want to have to pass an output pass-by-reference argument |
| 18:54.00 | influx | I don't follow. |
| 18:54.13 | influx | Not sure I do, anyway. |
| 18:58.49 | josephscott | http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/3231da28bb/weird-the-al-yankovic-story |
| 19:01.15 | stderr | influx: with exec() you have to pass an array whose contents will be overwritten with the output of said command |
| 19:01.31 | stderr | with passthru it returns the value as a string implicitly |
| 19:03.52 | DexterTheDragon | ~thump beandog |
| 19:03.52 | ibot | ACTION thumps beandog in the ear with a brick! |
| 19:04.53 | influx | Thanks! |
| 19:06.07 | beandog | ~brick beandog |
| 19:06.08 | ibot | ACTION installs a bad bootloader on beandog and turns beandog into a brick |
| 19:12.50 | *** part/#uphpu mastergunns (~mastergun@64.134.226.52) |
| 19:24.26 | cycokilr | well, you only _need_ to pass an array to exec() if you expect more than one line of output from your command.. |
| 19:24.44 | cycokilr | but in any case it's optional.. |
| 19:27.58 | cycokilr | s/any/either/ |
| 19:28.06 | cycokilr | thanks ibot |
| 19:29.02 | cycokilr | ibot: i love you |
| 19:29.03 | ibot | You love you? |
| 19:29.36 | cycokilr | ibot: i love ibot |
| 19:29.37 | ibot | You love ibot? |
| 19:29.39 | cycokilr | yes |
| 19:33.34 | influx | s/s/s/ |
| 19:33.46 | influx | s/as/s/ |
| 19:33.50 | influx | Hmm. |
| 20:05.34 | mindjuju | and as a mild distractant for those who could use a a break from a hard day's work I present... plastic surgery using bathroom chaulking -- http://www.bestweekever.tv/2010-03-10/you-cant-write-this-stuff-the-news-talks-about-caulk-in-the-butt/ |
| 20:27.17 | *** join/#uphpu trevynm (~trevynmey@173-116-243-102.pools.spcsdns.net) |
| 20:27.38 | trevynm | Does "Pay as you go" work for contract IT services? |
| 20:27.52 | trevynm | The bidding/contract 50% down stuff jsut sucks IMO |
| 20:28.17 | trevynm | Pay as you go helps the agile process a little more, what do you all think? |
| 20:28.19 | cycokilr | all my work is pay as i go.. |
| 20:28.28 | cycokilr | i just bill whenever i hit 18-20 hours |
| 20:29.03 | trevynm | cycokilr: I bill every 2 weeks, just to make sure there is no sticker shock :).. cycokilr do you clock in to write specs and SRS documents? |
| 20:30.06 | trevynm | mindjuju: ^ |
| 20:30.12 | trevynm | carmony: ^ |
| 20:30.19 | trevynm | herlo: ^ |
| 20:30.26 | cycokilr | i don't know what an SRS doc is.. but i clock in for pretty much any work i do for a client.. |
| 20:30.49 | trevynm | cycokilr: cool, I agree that is the best method |
| 20:31.16 | cycokilr | i do track work based on specific types and bill different hourly rates for some.. |
| 20:31.17 | trevynm | I want to market that "pay as you go" model a little more. Brining in new clients, you normally ahve to train them on that |
| 20:31.37 | trevynm | they constantly want bids/contracts, yet they never spec |
| 20:32.57 | trevynm | pay as you go.. < is that the right term? |
| 20:33.04 | trevynm | or project vs hourly |
| 20:33.11 | cycokilr | so SRS is kinda like design & planning? |
| 20:33.52 | trevynm | cycokilr: yeah |
| 20:34.09 | trevynm | Software Requirement Specifics or somethign like that |
| 20:34.43 | cycokilr | oh yeah, i track time for all that kind of stuff.. |
| 20:35.18 | trevynm | cycokilr: if you set an hourly budget and they feature creep, do you have to adjust and re bid? |
| 20:35.22 | cycokilr | wow either everyone in here took a late lunch or they all took naps after lunch.. |
| 20:35.27 | trevynm | :) |
| 20:35.38 | trevynm | cycokilr: its probably becuase it me |
| 20:35.44 | trevynm | :P |
| 20:35.56 | cycokilr | generally i make the client set a budget, monthy or however they want.. then i adjust the work to fit in that as much as i can.. |
| 20:36.03 | cycokilr | that way there are fewer surprises.. |
| 20:36.18 | trevynm | cycokilr: how do you typically find clients? |
| 20:36.32 | cycokilr | but if they pull out a giant project add-on or new feature that's huge i chat with them about how it will change things.. |
| 20:36.36 | trevynm | Mine, is word of mouth. |
| 20:36.55 | cycokilr | i can usually get them to adjust their budget on a one-time basis or something to cover extra work.. |
| 20:37.01 | cycokilr | yeah word of mouth |
| 20:37.06 | trevynm | new clients expect a set bid price, they dont see it as a long term support scenario each time. |
| 20:37.53 | cycokilr | and a couple guys i have that work in various non-computer related industries that refer their clients to me.. like merchant account providers (for web carts, crm apps, etc) |
| 20:38.40 | cycokilr | yeah that's true.. i always sit them down before anything is decided and get the full picture of what they want then tell them to plan on 6 months, a year, whatever for the final product.. |
| 20:38.40 | trevynm | cycokilr: how do you setup the initial agreement? do they have a large project, or just maintenance or both? |
| 20:38.58 | trevynm | cycokilr: did you get paid for the meeting ? |
| 20:39.04 | trevynm | I think you should have been :P |
| 20:39.14 | mindjuju | what up trevynm |
| 20:39.24 | cycokilr | i don't.. i'll talk to them for an hour or so the first time for free.. |
| 20:39.43 | cycokilr | i've had meetings after the fact to clarify or whatever that i do bill them for.. usually at a lower rate.. |
| 20:39.45 | trevynm | mindjuju: hi |
| 20:40.50 | *** join/#uphpu josephscott (~josephsco@74.200.246.169) |
| 20:40.50 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v josephscott] by ChanServ |
| 20:42.11 | mindjuju | both freelance gigs i have are pay as you go, stem from major projects to now maintanence schedule |
| 20:42.58 | mindjuju | one has regular multimedia needs that I do |
| 20:44.34 | mindjuju | no, i don't charge for meeting / talking; they don't talk much |
| 20:45.39 | trevynm | mindjuju: yeah, the goal is to convert the average person who has a IT need to a low maintenance hourly/agile customer |
| 20:46.40 | mindjuju | well, i wouldn't quite categorize it as that |
| 20:46.50 | mindjuju | i wouldn't take a brand new client on this type of setup |
| 20:47.12 | trevynm | lets talk in terms of a web application |
| 20:47.21 | trevynm | I had a bid of 160 hours |
| 20:47.26 | trevynm | they feature creeped to 300 hours |
| 20:47.36 | trevynm | they felt It was my fault |
| 20:47.46 | influx | ludicrous |
| 20:47.47 | trevynm | I knew it was due to there specs (mockups in excel) |
| 20:48.24 | mindjuju | after hearing macnewbold advice on scope / creep, i've been watching that much more religiously |
| 20:48.33 | macnewbold | hehe |
| 20:48.34 | mindjuju | i find my clients appreciate it too |
| 20:48.36 | trevynm | they said, they would ahve me do maintenance hourly if I delivered a finished product (meaning they had to feel satisfied) |
| 20:48.45 | mindjuju | i'm not wasting their time by guessing, and i'm not wasting my time neither |
| 20:49.00 | trevynm | mindjuju: do you have a video/screen cast of macnewbold stuff? |
| 20:49.25 | trevynm | Ive got some wierd ideas and i want to do my research before I claim to have a good idea :) |
| 20:49.41 | mindjuju | well, it wasn't a preso that he presented on, it was a discussion at a geek lunch if i recall |
| 20:49.46 | mindjuju | a couple years back |
| 20:49.50 | trevynm | oh |
| 20:50.03 | trevynm | macnewbold: you a full time contractor? or just freelancer? |
| 20:50.14 | mindjuju | macnewbold = business owner |
| 20:50.18 | mindjuju | code greene |
| 20:50.44 | mindjuju | mgeary = business owner - the treeline group |
| 20:51.12 | mindjuju | i think both are prolly pretty organized in how they receive projects, bid and produce |
| 20:51.31 | mindjuju | you know |
| 20:52.03 | mindjuju | maybe that's a presentation? if the macnewbold + mgeary want to share some of their hard earned mojo on how to bid / manage projects |
| 20:52.40 | mgeary | 70+ percent of our work is fixed-bid/fixed-scope. few clients are prepared to take the risk of an open-ended pay-as-you-go paradigm |
| 20:52.56 | mindjuju | yup, agree mgeary |
| 20:53.15 | mindjuju | that's why when i understood your question better trevynm, i kinda pulled back a little |
| 20:53.33 | mindjuju | i did the big project, it's more of a maintence cycle now |
| 20:53.38 | mgeary | now, in maintenance mode, it is often purely based on hours, sometimes with an anticipated cap per month, or so |
| 20:54.03 | mindjuju | mgeary, there is a good question there, though |
| 20:54.13 | mindjuju | have you thought about a minimum utilization on the month |
| 20:54.18 | mindjuju | i don't have one, was thinking about it |
| 20:54.26 | mindjuju | sort of a retainer |
| 20:54.38 | mgeary | no, we don't do that |
| 20:54.40 | mindjuju | i'm leaning towards not |
| 20:54.44 | mindjuju | ah, yeah |
| 20:54.51 | mindjuju | not good for the long term |
| 20:54.56 | mindjuju | k |
| 20:56.13 | carmony | oh man, I am soooo stuffed |
| 20:57.27 | macnewbold | trevynm: howdy |
| 20:57.39 | mindjuju | oh, actually carmony is business owner too with Carmony Technologies |
| 20:57.48 | macnewbold | for us, 90-95%+ of our stuff is fixed bid |
| 20:57.56 | mindjuju | and iTimber is businessowner with Humphrey Inc i think it is |
| 20:57.59 | macnewbold | yeh |
| 20:58.00 | macnewbold | yeah |
| 20:58.24 | carmony | Half my work is fixed bid, the other half is hourly paid based on estimates |
| 20:58.37 | macnewbold | people always considered our estimates as fixed bids |
| 20:58.45 | macnewbold | even though they were ranges, sometimes 1x-2x ranges |
| 20:58.50 | mindjuju | hmmm, i'm really seeing a roundtable here we should do as a preso for UPHPU |
| 20:58.51 | macnewbold | so we finally fixed bid everything |
| 20:58.56 | macnewbold | sounds fun |
| 20:58.59 | mindjuju | businessowners sharing info |
| 20:59.13 | carmony | I only do hourly on long term projects |
| 20:59.23 | carmony | i.e. spanning multiple months, many iterations, etc |
| 20:59.29 | mindjuju | yup |
| 20:59.30 | itimber | Thanks for the plug mindjuju, but I closed that recently and picked up a gig at Axis41 |
| 20:59.43 | mindjuju | oh i didn't know that itimber |
| 20:59.59 | itimber | it's a recent change |
| 21:00.04 | mindjuju | gotcha |
| 21:00.11 | mindjuju | how's the baby? |
| 21:00.21 | itimber | he's huge |
| 21:00.26 | itimber | 7mo now |
| 21:00.31 | mindjuju | :) |
| 21:00.38 | itimber | busting out of his 9mo clothes |
| 21:00.44 | mindjuju | awesome! |
| 21:01.05 | itimber | he'll catch his brother soon.... he's nearly 3yrs, and wearing 24mo and 2Ts |
| 21:01.20 | itimber | ya |
| 21:01.35 | itimber | how's yours doing? I see Tiff's updates |
| 21:01.56 | itimber | he's got such a personality |
| 21:02.01 | mindjuju | Corban? He's doing well, i bought him a suit on our Father / Son day on friday |
| 21:02.12 | mindjuju | and he and i compete in Plants v Zombies |
| 21:02.16 | mindjuju | currently he's beating me |
| 21:06.01 | mindjuju | hope that helps trevynm |
| 21:07.22 | mindjuju | in regards to your question about 300 hours and scopecreep, what I would do if i were you is move all design to well documented forms detailing specifically what they want |
| 21:07.31 | mindjuju | produce that, and learn from it |
| 21:07.43 | mindjuju | wouldn't burn the bridge of a possible maintenence cycle |
| 21:07.59 | mindjuju | and put everything moving forward in well doucmented forms that they sign off on |
| 21:19.54 | macnewbold | we've started doing detailed wireframes |
| 21:20.11 | macnewbold | they take a fraction of the time real design takes, and don't require the creativity really |
| 21:20.20 | macnewbold | they are purely content, not look and feel |
| 21:20.34 | macnewbold | put all the pages in, all the right elements on the pages, how they should work, etc. |
| 21:20.41 | macnewbold | and we do a bid based on that |
| 21:20.50 | macnewbold | then it goes through design |
| 21:21.14 | macnewbold | we recheck if it still matches the wireframe - if so, we build the front end, recheck, back end, etc. |
| 21:21.31 | macnewbold | if it doesn't match, 2 choices: fix the design to match the plan, or fix the plan/bid to match the design |
| 21:21.40 | macnewbold | in other words, change order or not |
| 21:22.16 | macnewbold | it's helped a ton to keep change orders (especially the free ones that they push on you) to a minimum |
| 21:22.27 | mindjuju | yup |
| 21:22.40 | macnewbold | by making them think through everything when it is cheap and easy to change the plan, we've saved a ton of rework down the road |
| 21:23.18 | macnewbold | plus our guys get stuff done faster cause the plan is clear from the beginning, and they're not always stopping to ask questions, get more info, etc. or making assumptions taht end up being wrong, despite howmuch better they're assumption would be than what the client wanted |
| 21:26.12 | trevynm | mindjuju: yeah was helpfull |
| 21:27.02 | trevynm | I didnt burn a bridge but it was a lose lose situation |
| 21:27.10 | trevynm | so I finished the project |
| 21:27.17 | trevynm | averaged $20 an hour |
| 21:27.30 | trevynm | good think I subbed it allout to $0 an hour Filipenos :P |
| 21:28.08 | herlo | trevynm: hi |
| 21:28.24 | trevynm | macnewbold: the wire frames is good I guess. |
| 21:28.45 | trevynm | im finding clients vary in there ability to understand stuff |
| 21:28.51 | trevynm | so were wireframes works for some |
| 21:29.08 | trevynm | doing it, turning it in, knee slapping them works for others |
| 21:29.14 | trevynm | herlo: hi |
| 21:30.15 | herlo | trevynm: I've been evaluating contracting myself recently, not sure if 'pay as you go' is as easy as it sounds. But I like the idea of agreeing to "chunks of work" at a time |
| 21:31.31 | trevynm | herlo: the term agile keeps coming to mind |
| 21:31.48 | trevynm | bite size commitments are easy to swollow on both ends |
| 21:32.02 | trevynm | and help to form the project and educate the cleints |
| 21:32.08 | herlo | trevynm: for sure |
| 21:32.10 | trevynm | I think the clients should pay to be educated |
| 21:32.29 | trevynm | or release control to the provider |
| 21:32.37 | trevynm | if I think it looks good, itlooks good :P |
| 21:33.12 | trevynm | herlo: I have a stupid power point, that teaches the benefits of pay as you go |
| 21:33.19 | trevynm | vs set project amounts |
| 21:33.25 | herlo | nice |
| 21:33.27 | trevynm | the main concept is this: |
| 21:33.38 | trevynm | set amount has 3 scenarios |
| 21:33.41 | trevynm | pay too much |
| 21:33.46 | trevynm | pay too little |
| 21:33.56 | trevynm | or pay the right amount of the value recieved |
| 21:34.12 | trevynm | pay as you go alwyas results in paying for the value recieved |
| 21:36.37 | trevynm | using an agile process for Software Specs/planning/consulting can educate and reveal that the project may or may not be worth the time |
| 21:36.54 | trevynm | I think that is a more expensive service than writing PHP to a spec. |
| 21:38.16 | trevynm | mindjuju: mgeary macnewbold carmony , my guess is your best talent is your ability to convert a customer idea to a technical spec, rather than your genious coding skills. Your implimentation knowledge library is your most valuable skill |
| 21:38.57 | trevynm | with labor outsourcing, it may need to become a more sught after tr |
| 21:39.03 | trevynm | trade* |
| 21:43.09 | ender|h_ | trevynm ? did you by chance work at compusa years back? |
| 21:43.54 | trevynm | ender|h_: nope, I failed my A+ at UVSC |
| 21:43.57 | trevynm | so they wouldnt hire me. |
| 21:45.09 | mindjuju | trevynm, i think you're confusing business best practices, and muturally agreeable practices with skill set |
| 21:45.18 | mindjuju | mgeary's point on risk is what i'm addressing here |
| 21:45.41 | ender|h_ | hah |
| 21:45.47 | mindjuju | a business owner won't open himself to risk of a project taking n hours and paying $50/hr |
| 21:46.01 | mindjuju | whta is to motivate the dev to produce the work quickly? |
| 21:46.33 | ender|h_ | cheese: The super motivator. |
| 21:47.02 | ender|h_ | they solidified that argument with an experiment involving lab rats. |
| 21:47.12 | trevynm | mindjuju: that is the best situation for motivation, customer recieves deliverables |
| 21:47.25 | trevynm | if the deliverables are good, the faucet stays on. |
| 21:47.39 | mindjuju | well, tell ya what, give it a try and let me know how that works |
| 21:47.50 | trevynm | mindjuju: 4 years running :P |
| 21:48.01 | trevynm | Its not without its heartburn |
| 21:48.24 | mindjuju | what business doesn't have heartburn? |
| 21:49.19 | mindjuju | so, quick question then, if this process has been working for four years now, have you been able to discover what caused the 300+ hour scopecreep failure? |
| 21:49.27 | trevynm | mindjuju: see here: http://bugzaddon.esourcehome.com/product_report?from=2010-03-01&to=2010-03-31 |
| 21:49.37 | mindjuju | and if so, what business changes are you going to make to prevent that in the future? |
| 21:49.51 | trevynm | mindjuju: yeah, I had a sales person names Ashley Oviatt :) |
| 21:50.13 | trevynm | shout out to god old ash |
| 21:50.16 | trevynm | good* |
| 21:50.33 | trevynm | basically preliminary expectations were set wrong |
| 21:50.58 | mindjuju | but that shouldn't have mattered as this was under a pay per hour model, yes? |
| 21:51.10 | trevynm | so a power point for a sales person, that teaches the pros cons of contracting vs hourly may resolve it? |
| 21:51.18 | mindjuju | how was it it that the prjoect earned less than expected, it should have earned more (mgeary's point of businnes risk) |
| 21:51.25 | trevynm | mindjuju: no, this was a set price model |
| 21:51.26 | macnewbold | catching up... |
| 21:51.41 | trevynm | I only sell hourly agreements |
| 21:51.55 | trevynm | my "sales" person sold a pre set budget |
| 21:52.17 | mindjuju | so you offer both, the set budget and the hourly |
| 21:52.26 | trevynm | mindjuju: that was an exception |
| 21:52.39 | trevynm | he was to use my laborers for his project |
| 21:52.49 | trevynm | and my laborers used up his pre set budget |
| 21:52.58 | trevynm | so I came in to smooth it over |
| 21:53.09 | trevynm | I use that example as a negative view or per project |
| 21:53.15 | mindjuju | actually, your laborers milked you out of time concurrently with your client slapped on more and more stuff |
| 21:53.33 | trevynm | mindjuju: yeah |
| 21:53.45 | mindjuju | yeah, don't do that |
| 21:53.51 | mindjuju | :) |
| 21:54.07 | macnewbold | having a fixed budget doesn't work well without a fixed plan |
| 21:54.11 | trevynm | explain :) |
| 21:54.28 | trevynm | macnewbold: true, an how often do we have a fixed plan? |
| 21:54.37 | macnewbold | the hourly model sounds great, but often ends up costing more and more becaues the plan wasn't laid down in teh beginnign |
| 21:54.40 | trevynm | I think its easier to sell hourly, than to define a fixed plan. |
| 21:54.42 | mindjuju | work with people you trust to do good work, pay them fairly, and make sure you get everything in writing |
| 21:54.45 | trevynm | ..possibly.. |
| 21:54.49 | macnewbold | so you waste a lot of time wandering in the wilderness so to speak |
| 21:55.04 | macnewbold | trevynm: it is definitely easier to sell hourly than fixed plan in some regards |
| 21:55.21 | trevynm | macnewbold: the agile process requires constant tension on the project |
| 21:55.34 | trevynm | so lost in wilderness doenst last long. |
| 21:55.39 | macnewbold | hourly has ways that it protects both of you, but it requires someone to place a value per hour on your work, and trust that they'll get that value out of it |
| 21:55.49 | macnewbold | it's almost like the client writing a blank check |
| 21:55.55 | trevynm | macnewbold: exactly. |
| 21:55.57 | mindjuju | hmm, that's true too |
| 21:56.07 | mindjuju | i wouldn't charge the same for a SQL hour as i would for a PHP hour |
| 21:56.14 | macnewbold | we've seen a ton of projects that get 80% of the way in double the timeframe and double the budget originally promised |
| 21:56.25 | trevynm | mindjuju: thats alrelative to conveying value. |
| 21:56.35 | macnewbold | if you're spending a straight hour doing sql, you're doing something wrong :) |
| 21:56.38 | trevynm | all relative* |
| 21:56.45 | trevynm | macnewbold: ..lol |
| 21:57.01 | macnewbold | even when we were on hourly, |
| 21:57.11 | mindjuju | setting up sprocs for a project takes you less than an hour macnewbold? |
| 21:57.24 | macnewbold | whenever it took more hours than the client had hoped, they usually ended up doing the sob story about how it wasn't supposed to take that long, |
| 21:57.25 | macnewbold | etc. |
| 21:57.31 | macnewbold | mindjuju: i don't use sprocs |
| 21:59.19 | trevynm | macnewbold: mindjuju so am I crazy? |
| 21:59.25 | trevynm | any converts here? |
| 21:59.51 | trevynm | want to drop the bid model, and move to hourly model :P |
| 22:00.00 | trevynm | I think im snake bitten |
| 22:00.07 | trevynm | I hate unhappy customers |
| 22:00.22 | trevynm | and I think its always thier fault... pride I guess |
| 22:00.28 | mindjuju | did i miss something? |
| 22:00.54 | macnewbold | a lot of the time the unhappy clients are their own fault |
| 22:00.54 | trevynm | mindjuju: you didnt miss anything |
| 22:00.59 | macnewbold | but they'll always blame you |
| 22:01.48 | trevynm | macnewbold: do you see any advantage to moveing to a strictly hourly model? |
| 22:01.58 | trevynm | or is that an excuse for not wanting to spec correctly? |
| 22:03.25 | trevynm | macnewbold: trevynm: it is definitely easier to sell hourly than fixed plan in some regards |
| 22:03.27 | macnewbold | going strictly hourly? yeah, it is kinda not wanting to plan well, |
| 22:03.52 | macnewbold | it makes it harder (in my opinion) to get the right value on everything |
| 22:03.58 | macnewbold | fore xample, different tasks have different values |
| 22:04.16 | macnewbold | with fixed bid, our $/hr rate depends on how efficiently we work - we work faster, we get paid better |
| 22:04.20 | macnewbold | we work sloppy, we get paid worse |
| 22:04.30 | macnewbold | and we're able to avoid the hourly rate question all together |
| 22:04.43 | macnewbold | most clients just flat out won't do a $150/hr hourly rate |
| 22:04.47 | trevynm | macnewbold: yeah I do the QA on hourly value |
| 22:04.57 | macnewbold | but they'll happily pay $1500 for something that i can do in 10 hours |
| 22:05.00 | trevynm | I rarely adjust, but I also, review with the client. |
| 22:05.15 | macnewbold | and the other guy might take 20 hours or 30 hours to do the same thing, getting 50-75/hr instead |
| 22:05.24 | trevynm | macnewbold: as employees they dont get a raise per hour when brilliant |
| 22:05.46 | trevynm | contractors have a natual meter that says, am I expendable/valuable at this rate. |
| 22:05.50 | macnewbold | there are some proejcts we don't like much, caues the market value is low compared to the time it takes, so we often don't do those |
| 22:06.01 | macnewbold | our employees _do_ benefit when they work faster |
| 22:06.06 | trevynm | so the logged time sometimes reflect value instead of the acctual time spent. |
| 22:06.14 | macnewbold | more liekly to get a raise, but they also get profit sharing |
| 22:06.30 | macnewbold | the vested employees split 20% of the profits each month |
| 22:06.47 | trevynm | macnewbold: I agree company ownership has to be shared to get consistant motivational efforts |
| 22:06.55 | macnewbold | yeah, there's got to be something |
| 22:07.03 | macnewbold | there are a lot of ways to motivate though |
| 22:07.08 | macnewbold | the important thing is aligning interests |
| 22:07.15 | trevynm | I avoid the empolyee model probably because Im scared to commit |
| 22:07.22 | macnewbold | if owners want X to happen, they need to incentivize it |
| 22:07.28 | macnewbold | yeah, it's challenging |
| 22:07.46 | macnewbold | your contractors could benefit from working faster if they did fixed bid with you instead of hourly |
| 22:07.52 | macnewbold | but that'd require a fixed plan :) |
| 22:07.56 | macnewbold | or they'd be changeordering you |
| 22:08.18 | macnewbold | the employee thing is hard - cause when there aren't profits, they still get paid |
| 22:08.27 | trevynm | yeah |
| 22:08.33 | macnewbold | it's been a rough year or so because of that |
| 22:08.57 | macnewbold | but our guys know we've got their backs, even if it is money i needed to use to pay my own bills that is going into their paychecks |
| 22:09.02 | trevynm | macnewbold: not to sound like an a hoe but business has been good for me the past 2 years |
| 22:09.05 | macnewbold | and they reciprocate |
| 22:09.14 | trevynm | Ill never have a negative month |
| 22:09.25 | macnewbold | we haven't had a truly negative month, |
| 22:09.28 | trevynm | due to virtual offices, free servers, and sub contract model |
| 22:09.37 | macnewbold | just low enough that my partner and i didn't get our full paychecks |
| 22:09.42 | trevynm | macnewbold: your more prefessional then me :) |
| 22:10.09 | trevynm | I have to have them build stuff for me when work is slow |
| 22:10.16 | trevynm | or I say no work, and thats hard for them |
| 22:10.33 | macnewbold | for us, the contractor model would be challenging, cause we've found the results to be unpredictable, and sometimes it's hard for us to get firm commitments that they deliver on |
| 22:10.55 | trevynm | macnewbold: ... SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS ME!! |
| 22:10.58 | macnewbold | with our inhouse guys, we work together all day every day, know what they can do, how fast, and benefit from the training they get |
| 22:11.01 | trevynm | thats funny. |
| 22:11.17 | macnewbold | too many times when outsourcing, they promise more than they can deliver, |
| 22:11.31 | macnewbold | and deliver it late, incomplete, broken, wrong, or some combination of the above |
| 22:11.31 | trevynm | macnewbold: yeah, I think im over that hump |
| 22:11.40 | trevynm | took me a few years to figure out why that is |
| 22:11.48 | trevynm | its a non issue anymore. |
| 22:12.06 | macnewbold | the other challenge is that they often have other clients/projects too, so knowing what we can count on from them in terms of hours they can do on our projects is hard |
| 22:12.17 | macnewbold | how did you solve it, if you don't mind my asking? |
| 22:12.29 | trevynm | im trying to combine all the elements |
| 22:12.33 | trevynm | that made it not a problem |
| 22:12.47 | trevynm | basiically I used to play catchup for everyone |
| 22:13.03 | trevynm | the contractors are team memebers like employees |
| 22:13.05 | trevynm | they show up each day |
| 22:13.09 | trevynm | tey know the clients |
| 22:13.15 | trevynm | the clients know them |
| 22:13.25 | trevynm | I had to remove myself |
| 22:13.33 | trevynm | and let the contracts and clients work together |
| 22:13.48 | trevynm | client knows I will fill in if there is any disconnect |
| 22:13.55 | trevynm | theystill call me |
| 22:14.02 | trevynm | untill the dev earns there trust |
| 22:15.48 | trevynm | macnewbold: does that seem like a good answer? |
| 22:15.55 | trevynm | Makes it seem like I run a staffing agency more than a dev shop |
| 22:16.14 | _psychic_ | Depends on how constantly and often you use your contractors. |
| 22:16.29 | trevynm | _psychic_: daily for most of them |
| 22:16.37 | trevynm | its a tough job to keep em all staffed |
| 22:16.46 | _psychic_ | they're essentially employees, then. |
| 22:16.49 | mgeary | trevynm: do you contractors work at your location? on your equipment? or are they remote? |
| 22:16.59 | _psychic_ | so it's less of an unknown-quantity deal if that's the case |
| 22:17.43 | mgeary | you might want to watch out, because the IRS could well argue that your contractors *ARE* employees, and then you're on the line for a ton of back taxes |
| 22:19.58 | trevynm | mgeary: al remote |
| 22:20.01 | trevynm | on my servers |
| 22:20.06 | trevynm | most use a lcal server and use SVN |
| 22:20.10 | trevynm | to check in |
| 22:20.37 | trevynm | mgeary: they are mostly out of the country |
| 22:20.55 | mgeary | ah |
| 22:21.11 | trevynm | I pay most of the US contractors a high hourly rate |
| 22:21.17 | trevynm | and they dont get full time hours |
| 22:21.33 | trevynm | if they are full time I make them a manageingmemeber of the LLC |
| 22:21.54 | trevynm | and that makes them an owner, removes some of the 10% self employment ect |
| 22:22.07 | trevynm | macnewbold: fun to talk shop, thanks |
| 22:22.41 | trevynm | its tough doing something so abstract (in my mind its abstract) and no have many people who can peer review |
| 22:22.59 | macnewbold | thank you |
| 22:24.03 | trevynm | macnewbold: Id like to network with you some, I bet you have more ways to help me than I can help you. But if you need anything let me know and Id try to help. |
| 22:25.30 | macnewbold | good to know |
| 22:25.37 | macnewbold | what skill levels do you have at your disposal? |
| 22:25.47 | macnewbold | anyone with cakephp experience? or extensive magento or wordpress experience? |
| 22:26.03 | trevynm | macnewbold: cakephp and CI is our thing |
| 22:26.07 | trevynm | and wordpress |
| 22:26.15 | macnewbold | we're cakephp too |
| 22:26.24 | trevynm | http://directory.esourcehome.com/ |
| 22:26.36 | trevynm | thats a list of people who have worked for me |
| 22:26.45 | trevynm | see the pinoy kids at teh bottom |
| 22:26.52 | trevynm | thats been a good fit. |
| 22:41.35 | *** join/#uphpu mjijackson (~michael@c-71-195-208-99.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 22:42.20 | unum | let's say I have a php file that outputs html, but I want to email that out put |
| 22:42.26 | unum | what's the easiest way to do that? |
| 22:42.47 | cycokilr | put the output in a var and mail() is |
| 22:42.53 | cycokilr | s/is/it/ |
| 22:45.18 | unum | how do I put the output in a var |
| 22:45.58 | cycokilr | well that depends on a few things i'd imagine.. |
| 22:46.03 | cycokilr | how are you serving the page? |
| 22:47.38 | unum | this will be called via an ajax request |
| 22:47.50 | cycokilr | like i have one page i use that pulls in a csv file and dumps the contents into a database on a schedule.. i just use wget to get that page and send an email with parts of it and dump the rest into a log.. |
| 22:48.02 | cycokilr | hmm.. so in a web interface.. |
| 22:48.49 | unum | I rather not call wget or curl stuff |
| 22:48.59 | unum | I guess I could do a sys call |
| 22:49.07 | unum | but it really seems there should be an easier way |
| 22:49.25 | cycokilr | oh i'm sure there is.. that was just one of mine that's kinda the same.. |
| 22:49.51 | cycokilr | seems like i've done something like this with output buffering in the past.. |
| 22:50.04 | cycokilr | didn't mail it.. but used the output somewhere later.. |
| 22:51.20 | unum | something like $body=include('file.php'); |
| 22:51.58 | cycokilr | i don't think that would parse the code.. |
| 22:52.04 | unum | I could do $body=execute('php file.php'); |
| 22:55.09 | *** part/#uphpu Utah_Dave (~David@72-166-51-162.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 22:55.23 | unum | but that just seems wrong |
| 22:55.48 | cycokilr | yeah seems like output buffering is what you need unless i'm missing something.. |
| 22:56.41 | cycokilr | http://www.electrictoolbox.com/php-output-buffering/ <-- that has some good info on it |
| 23:05.00 | *** join/#uphpu ninnypants (~ninnypant@2002:62ca:f72c:1234:214:a5ff:feba:4ec2) |
| 23:17.56 | unum | that doesn't look right |
| 23:17.59 | unum | hmmmmm |
| 23:19.00 | itimber | I'm out... later guys |
| 23:22.08 | jtsnow | using mod_rewrite, anyone know if environmental variables can be used in a RewriteRule substitution? |
| 23:23.41 | *** join/#uphpu jtsnow (~chatzilla@VDSL-151-118-129-72.DNVR.QWEST.NET) |
| 23:23.50 | ninnypants | jtsnow: I believe you can |
| 23:24.04 | jtsnow | ninnypants: any idea how? |
| 23:28.29 | herlo | jtsnow: yes |
| 23:28.48 | ninnypants | jtsnow: I'm not sure from what i remember it's something like $VARNAME |
| 23:31.07 | ninnypants | any ftp client recomendations for fedora filezilla wont list directories from one of my servers on any platform but winscp will |
| 23:33.36 | jtsnow | ninnypants: looks like %{ENV:VARNAME} works :) |
| 23:33.55 | ninnypants | sweet |
