IRC log for #uphpu on 20100120

00:00.24mindjujuam i not anymore, fungus?
00:01.35fungusmindjuju's laptops still top anything you can get nowdays.  :)
00:01.56justincarmony5.5lbs for 15" vs 6.6 lbs for 17"
00:02.02mindjujuah yeah!
00:02.05fungusthey should carry a surgeon general's warning "May cause serious back injury"
00:02.28mindjujumay?  i have to wear a weight lifter belt!
00:02.34mindjujunah, they cool!
00:02.51mindjujudual usb 2.0
00:02.59mindjujubuilt in wifi
00:03.10mindjujubattery lasts like 45 minutes
00:03.24fungusyikes
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00:05.47mindjuju:)
00:05.59fungustotally jealous.
00:06.06mindjujuoh, and they are both have winders / ubuntu dual boot
00:06.15funguseek, diseased too?
00:06.17mindjujuand a swanky ole asterisk sticker on one
00:06.58justincarmonylol
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03:20.13justincarmonyjosephscott: so I think I'm going to get a 17" :P
03:20.33josephscottreally?  been playing at the apple store lately?
03:20.41justincarmonylol
03:21.12justincarmonyyeah
03:21.14supernoviaI keep wanting to buy a smaller laptop for school
03:21.23justincarmonywhat size do you have supernovia ?
03:21.42supernoviathis one's 17" and I think the other older one is 15
03:22.44supernoviaI had a little netbook for about a day earlier this year and it made me want one like it :)
03:22.53josephscottjustincarmony: I assume you must really want the extra screen realestate
03:23.04justincarmonyjosephscott: yeah... I'm a pixel junkie :P
03:23.10justincarmonyits a 1.1 lbs difference
03:23.45supernovia:-p
03:23.56josephscottI don't think the weight is the big deal, just the awkward extra size
03:24.13justincarmonyyeah
03:24.20justincarmonyhere is the screen difference: http://screencast.com/t/YjczMGI1
03:24.53josephscottso one thing that is nice about the 17 is that the screen res is something more normal
03:25.11josephscottthe 15 res is just odd, external monitors do strange things with it
03:26.03justincarmonyyeah
03:26.08justincarmony1920x1200
03:47.45influxOi.
03:48.10influxWhat should I look for and read if I want to learn how to properly design a database?
03:50.32supernoviahmm
03:52.06supernoviadepends on what you'd consider properly designed I suppose :)
03:52.12influxAye.
03:52.21supernoviaand that will depend on how it's going to be used
03:52.22influxIt was a poor question.
03:53.26supernoviaAre you just trying to get a handle on DBs for your learning and growth or are you doing this for a project?
03:53.27influxWhat I want to know is when to keep data all in a particular table and when to separate data into different tables.
03:54.13influxlearning and growth, mainly. I'm working on a personal project that I think may benefit in the long run from my knowing this stuff.
03:55.24supernoviareally depends on your data.  If it's for your learning and you're not expecting something to randomly take off, I'd just experiment with things and keep your eyes and ears open when people are talking about their experiences
03:56.09supernoviaalso depends on what kind of database you're running (or so says my oracle-lovin brother)
03:56.20wpsthe thing that was most beneficial for me (and got me started) was an in-person crash course from someone
03:56.58wpshe explained the difference between data types, insert/update/delete, many-to-one, many-to-many, etc
03:57.11wpsI took a bunch of notes and still use the cheat-sheet constantly
03:57.11influxyes!
03:57.48influxwps has it
03:58.29wpsprimary keys, auto_increment, null, not null, unique, alter, change
03:59.11supernoviaah I was thinking you were talking about whether or not to be strictly normalized, et
03:59.12supernoviaetc
03:59.36wpshow to create a table, change data type of existing table, rename column, add/remove column, mysql_dump, granting and flushing privileges
03:59.47supernoviaeggyknap & josephscott have gone to town on that one a few times iirc
04:00.04wpsI would also recommend that you do it from the command line while you're learning so that you understand what's going on
04:00.40wpsI always/stil do it from the command line because I prefer it that way
04:00.54wpsI find it much easier and faster than something like phpmysqladmin
04:00.58supernoviawho gave you a crash course, wps?
04:01.06wpss/phpmysqladmin/phpMyAdmin/
04:01.08influxHmm. You both have it. Heh. I do need to learn how to work with the database, but I'm also looking at data modeling.
04:01.25wpsfrom a coworker that's not part of UPHPU
04:02.30josephscottdata sharding can help cope with large data sets, when exactly to do it varies quite a bit depending on your needs
04:03.05supernoviamy first crash course in dbs was with MSSQL Server 2000 :-[
04:03.27josephscottouch
04:03.31supernoviascarred me for life
04:05.56josephscotthmmm, I'm trying to remember what the first DB was that I used for a web site.  it's been awhile, I think it was msql
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04:07.39supernoviaI hadn't even heard of it .. mini sql?
04:08.20josephscottthere was some sql server 6.0/6.5, oracle and mysql in there later on, don't remember the exact order of things
04:08.42josephscottsupernovia: yep, Mini SQL.
04:09.22supernoviais small.. dang apostrophe too close to the enter key
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04:10.58josephscottI don't count any of the data stores that were custom written for CGIs, they were just basic data files, nothing like having a relational db with sql support
04:11.16supernoviayou know what bugs me?  I'm old enough and have been doing this kind of thing long enough that I should know -so- much more than I do right now.  But I don't.
04:11.43josephscottmsql was mysql before there was a mysql :-)
04:12.38supernovianeat, I didn't know that
04:12.56supernovia(either.. gah!)  lol
04:13.53josephscottit was popular for web stuff, but mysql quickly took over that spot, the 90s was wild west time on the Internet
04:14.43supernoviaso true.  Wonder what they'll call the aughts
04:21.04influxThis looks like it could be good: http://www.amazon.com/Modeling-Database-Design-Richard-Scamell/dp/1423900839/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263960995&sr=8-6
04:21.07influxach.
04:21.23influxhttp://tinyurl.com/yg2g4da
04:22.32influxPricey, though.
04:24.13supernoviadid we all talk once about doing some kind of tech book recycling thing or was that another group?
04:26.41influxHmm. Found a better book, I think: http://tinyurl.com/yecyw3v
04:26.49influxsupernovia: No idea.
04:27.03influxI know I still have mindjuju's ASP books though.
04:27.26stderrhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/dataw0lf/4289137629/ new D90
04:32.01influxnice
04:32.50stderrthe kit lens is really nice, I'm gonna have to break out my 50mm 1.4/D here in a minute
04:33.11supernoviaI will have to keep on lovin my elph
04:47.50stderrhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/dataw0lf/4289181911/ a little post processing this time + exposure compensation
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05:01.07mgearyromanovic: ping
05:52.22wpsinflux: one other thing
05:52.54wpsadd created datetime, modified datetime, and modified by columns to every table
05:54.54wpshelps with debugging (and pointing fingers)
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13:38.39justincarmonynothing like a netsplit in the morning to start the day
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15:21.00influxwps: Noted. :)
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16:04.26utahconone of my all time favorite songs
16:12.28influxI always thought it was 9000 foot.
16:12.35influxHuh.
16:29.21mgearyromanovic: ping
16:32.32Zelutcan anyone suggest a good tool for measuring page load times? I found a tool to compress js and css for speed, but I'd like to measure how effective it is.
16:32.46mgearySafari, Firebug, Yslow, Charles
16:33.09mgearyall of those will give you ms load times
16:40.06_psychic_The web inspector or firebug is nice because it'll tell you a little more about caching, usually, too.
16:42.12mgearyyep
16:42.27DexterTheDragonutahcon: I love that song
16:57.04fungusZelut, Chrome as well,  very detailed response/load times.
16:57.17Zelutfungus: where do I find it in Chrome?
16:57.18fungusall built in, no addon needed
16:57.33fungusCtrl-Shift-I, or the Developer Tools in the menus
16:57.46fungussee Resources Tab
16:57.47mgearythe Safari features are built-in as well
16:58.11Zelutnice
16:58.17ZelutChrome has it all.
16:58.22fungushehe, yup
16:58.37fungusYes Safari does too.  as most WebKit based browsers
16:59.21ZelutI heart chrome
16:59.22mgearywe don't need no (more) stinkin' browsers!
16:59.51mgearyi mean, if i could drop IE down a well, and gain Chrome in the bargain, i'm all over that, but i'm not very excited about having to support yet another browser
17:00.41Zelutluckily chrome and safari are pretty much the same as far as the rendering goes
17:00.55mgeary~webkit++
17:00.55fungusThat is why standards are important, it shouldn't matter what browser you use
17:01.11mgearyheh. yeah. "should't"....
17:01.20mgeary"shouldn't", rather
17:01.23fungusunfortunately... shouldn't  != doesn't
17:01.29fungusright.
17:01.36fungus~curse IE
17:01.36ibotMay the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, IE !
17:02.24Zelutgranted I'm not a pro web dev, but I don't give a shit if my site(s) don't work in IE.
17:02.39Zelutif you're still using that crap you _deserve_ a horrible web experience
17:02.40mgearythat's an unrealistic approach
17:03.00mgearytry telling that to a paying client, 75% of whose clients use IE
17:03.18Zelutagain, I'm not a web dev so its not an issue for me.
17:03.29Zelutjust a blogger for a linux-specific topic
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17:06.49mindjuju___clash of the titans - Apple v Google v Microsoft - http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/56193
17:08.07mindjuju___kind of reminiscent of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awskKWzjlhk
17:08.48mindjuju___I'm gonna argue that google = the good, MS = the bad, i guess that leaves apple as the ugly?
17:09.26utahconmindjuju___: Apple as ugly?
17:09.27fungusnope
17:09.31fungusMS = Ugly
17:09.34fungusApple = Bad
17:09.40mindjuju___ah
17:11.47fungusgood = open source, bad = closed source, ugly = closed + vicious attacks
17:12.17mindjuju___well, that does describe MS to a T
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17:14.16mindjuju___favorite movie line evar -- see, in this world there are 2 kinds of people, those with loaded guns, and those who dig, you dig...
17:18.24mgearyhey folks, what kind of things would make rsync think it needed to copy a file over again that's already been transferred by rsync? i'm using --no-o --no-p --no-g --no-t, but running a synch script repeatedly on files that haven't changed keeps wanting to copy some files
17:19.35mgearyi'm on OS X, fwiw
17:22.36fungusmgeary, copying local files with rsync skips the block update algorithms
17:22.43mgearyfungus: it's not local
17:23.40funguswith --no-t that prevents times, so it will always try to update the file
17:23.54mgearyhrm. i'll try removing that
17:23.56fungusbut as a remote copy it should be pretty fast
17:24.43funguseither keep times, or remove time checking --size-only
17:25.16mgearyrunning it again keeping times
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17:39.46mgearybah, so, yeah, keeping times doesn't reprocess files, but it does want to keep touching each directory
17:39.49mgearyi'll try --size-only
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17:54.20justincarmonymindjuju___: thats crazy
17:54.26justincarmonyabout google/apple/ms
17:59.41mgearyyeah, looks like --size-only is doing the trick. woot
18:01.31macnewbold~msaccess
18:01.48macnewboldibot: msaccess is not a real database
18:01.49ibotokay, macnewbold
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18:02.15mgeary~lart itimber
18:02.15ibotdrops a humongous exploding nuke on itimber
18:02.30mgeary...as opposed to those nukes that don't explode..?
18:02.53itimberhaha
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18:31.37brastofungus: thank you for your comments on the thread about split dns.
18:32.35fungusnp
18:32.35brastonow I need to find a good PAM/LDAP/samba solution.  Some way of making them all work together.  Any recommendations for a starting point anyone?
18:33.10fungussamba as a domain member, or domain controller?
18:33.50brastoright now it's a domain member.
18:33.51SunSparcIt pains me to say it, but we are actually trying out a Windows PDC in combination with our PAM/samba.
18:34.02fungusdomain member is way easy.
18:34.33funguslots of docs out there to explain that process
18:34.38brasto~pdc
18:34.54ibotwell, pdc is primary domain controller
18:35.10brastoah, that is painfull SunSparc
18:36.14SunSparcYeah
18:36.54brastowhen samba is a domain controller, Windows thinks it's Active Directory, right?
18:37.04fungushttp://wiki.samba.org/index.php/Samba_&_Active_Directory
18:37.31fungusSamba as a PDC can be setup as an old school NT style domain, or a full blown AD domain
18:38.01fungusAD style is a lot more painful, as you need to setup an LDAP server and such
18:40.34fungusI did it once a few years back, it was pretty heinous
18:40.38fungusGood luck SunSparc
18:40.48SunSparcheh, thanks fungus
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19:20.48mgearyyou know, i've got 6 gigs of ram, 8 processors, tons of HD space for swaps, you'd think it wouldn't be so deadly slow working in a 400meg text file :/
19:21.12mgearyand yes, i realize that procs don't necessarily help in stuff like that
19:22.52jsmithmgeary: Which editor, dare I ask?
19:22.55justincarmonybut generally speaking, yes, you'd think it'd be an easy thing :P
19:23.12mgearyjsmith: BBedit. I don't *dare* do this in TextMate
19:23.26jsmithmgeary: I routinely used to edit files that size, and vim would be super-quick... while nano would be *bring-the-server-to-its-knees* slow
19:23.28mgearybut i've never gained an appreciation for emacs, vi, vim, etc
19:23.47jsmithmgeary = old dog and vim = new tricks?
19:23.59mgearyno doubt
19:24.14jsmithHow much editing are you doing?
19:24.31mgearyon this one big file? i need to pull some data from a database backup
19:26.12justincarmonysheesh, Gibbs is getting hammered with hard questions right now :P
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19:52.55fungusmgeary, what you really need is either SSD drives, or many drives in a RAID setup.  
19:53.12fungusThen you would not just be Uber, but Ultra Uber.
19:53.27mgearyseriously
19:53.45fungusRAID of SSD = God
20:08.09influxUber Uber
20:13.51mindjuju___too funny for words - http://media.gunaxin.com/a-tribute-to-waylon-smithers/42467
20:14.03mindjuju___actually, it's this one
20:14.04mindjuju___http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1OCC1GWczo&feature=player_embedded
20:14.43Lone_WandererI'll trade - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOtoIBrBAYE
20:15.42mindjuju___Lone_Wanderer, that is a good one
20:15.49Lone_WandererI'm liking it.
20:16.22mindjuju___i like mona lisa overdrive though
20:16.25mindjuju___it's this one
20:16.26mindjuju___http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CzTTYfNfuw&feature=related
20:16.50mindjuju___starts out smooth and slow
20:17.01mindjuju___and ramps up in a mjaor way
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20:19.32mindjuju___see there at 1:50 it starts to transition to speedy
20:22.08Lone_Wandererjust finished the first one
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20:31.21Lone_Wandererman, I wish I could mainline techno.
20:31.28Lone_WandererLike, put it into a syringe and inject it.
20:32.03SunSparcMix the techno and some caffeine and you have a killer combination for an IV drip.
20:32.16Lone_Wanderernah
20:32.18Lone_WandererMDMA
20:32.21justincarmonylol
20:33.19SunSparcYou would not need any techno in that mix.
20:34.33Lone_Wandererwhat's the point of doing drugs if you're not listening to music?
20:34.47Lone_Wanderer(says the guy who has never actually taken any drugs other than caffeine)
20:35.13SunSparcWell, with certain drugs it would not make a difference if you are listening to music or not.  :)
20:35.43Lone_WandererWhich drugs are those?
20:35.46Lone_WandererI don't want to ever take them.
20:35.52SunSparclol
20:37.42SunSparcThe best drugs are endogenous opioid polypeptide compounds.
20:38.06Lone_Wandererwhich are...
20:38.19Lone_Wandererpainkillers that your body produces on its own?
20:38.19SunSparcEndorphins
20:38.22Lone_Wandereradrenaline?
20:38.23Lone_Wandererahh
21:12.28*** topic/#UPHPU by macnewbold -> Utah PHP Users Group | uphpu.org | Meeting tomorrow! 7pm @ Bill Good, 9pm @ Applebee's (Draper)
21:12.41macnewboldso who's giving the presentation tomorrow at the meeting?
21:12.43macnewbold~apb mindjuju___
21:12.44ibotACTION hires baby Lyssa to rough up mindjuju___
21:12.50macnewbold~nickometer mindjuju___
21:30.53utahconmacnewbold:
21:30.56utahconoops
21:31.00utahconmacnewbold: http://uphpu.org/
21:31.22utahconjustincarmony is putting the "fun" back in  PHP fundamentals
21:31.35justincarmonylol
21:31.41utahconand Heartsbane is going to follow eith Basic Linux Server Admin
21:31.48macnewboldutahcon: thanks
21:31.59justincarmonymacnewbold: you should come! :P
21:32.01utahconand if all else fails I will be there with some less than witty banter in the back channel
21:32.33*** topic/#UPHPU by macnewbold -> Utah PHP Users Group | uphpu.org | Meeting tomorrow! 7pm @ Bill Good, 9pm @ Applebee's (Draper) - Justin Carmony with PHP "Fun"damentals and Trevor "Heartsbane" Sharpe with Basic Linux Server Admin
21:32.38macnewboldyeah, I'm going
21:32.48macnewboldit's going to be awesome
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21:38.20justincarmonyutahcon: I'll have my laptop auto-lart anyone who back channel's during my presentation! :P
21:38.23justincarmony;) jk
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22:19.32influxCan stripslashes remove / too?
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22:20.34romanovicLone_Wanderer: you srping soon?
22:21.13Lone_Wanderersrping?
22:21.57romanovicsrp
22:22.22macnewbold~srp
22:22.23ibotThe Stanford SRP Authentication Project (http://srp.stanford.edu/srp) Secure Remote Protocol allows for pasword-based authentication and key-exchange over public networks.  Both exportable and non-exportable versions are available for numerous Unix platforms, including Linux, and clients are available for WinNT and Java.
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22:23.37macnewboldinflux: stripslashes only removes \ and converts \\ to \. it does the opposite of addslashes. you may want to look at preg_replace().
22:23.52influxThanks.
22:23.54macnewboldnp
22:23.58macnewboldhope that helps
22:24.14influxLooks like it will.
22:24.17influx:)
22:28.10mgeary_granted, she's not young
22:48.22mindjujumgeary, good to know the name on that, here i always called it a triangle right / triangle down thingee
22:48.42mgearyheh
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23:02.14utahconI didn't know they were called disclosure triangles
23:02.59mindjujunow you know -- and knowing is half the battle
23:03.05utahconGo Joe!
23:03.19mgearywell i don't fault you that, but i would be disappointed if you didn't know how to USE one
23:03.29mindjujuah
23:03.33utahconmgeary: quite aware of how they work
23:04.00utahconbut I am with mindjuju always called it the drop down arrow or something else
23:04.12utahconbut now I can call it a disclosure triangle with confidence.
23:04.32utahcon... with this knowledge I now leave, home sounds really good right now.
23:05.04mindjuju:)
23:15.28justincarmonywoohoo, got 20/20 on this PHP quiz: http://w3schools.com/quiztest/quiztest.asp?qtest=PHP :P
23:15.56justincarmonygranted, its geared towards very very beginners
23:16.32mindjujujustincarmony, did you need anything printed for tomorrow?01
23:17.48jtsnowThis is a nice quiz... http://www.netrino.com/Embedded-Systems/Embedded-C-Quiz
23:18.17justincarmonymindjuju: hrm.... I think I'll quickly make some copies at the office tomorrow :P
23:18.53mindjujuk
23:24.14*** join/#uphpu macnewbold1 (n=mac@hao.codegreene.com)
23:24.14*** mode/#UPHPU [+o macnewbold1] by ChanServ
23:38.49herloya!
23:39.37jsmithherlo: oh?
23:40.58macnewboldnothing like a brief power outage to let you know that the UPS that powers your router needs a battery replacement...
23:42.23wpsis there something special you have to do to mod_rewrite https urls?
23:42.37*** part/#uphpu Lone_Wanderer (n=Dan@c-98-202-123-90.hsd1.ut.comcast.net)
23:45.20Zelutwps: don't think so..
23:46.59wpssheesh… a realtor wanting to show our house just showed up half an hour early
23:47.08wpswe were still cleaning
23:47.22wpsidiot didn't even apologize
23:51.15influxShould have said, "Great! You can help us finish sooner!"
23:51.19influxand handed him a rag.
23:56.28herlojsmith: oh? what?
23:57.31jsmithherlo: You said "Ya!", so I said "Oh?"
23:57.49herlooh, ya!
23:57.53herlo:-
23:57.56herlo:-P

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