| 00:00.09 | mindjuju | yup, that's what i was going to tell him |
| 00:00.24 | mindjuju | i see he's on #utah and #ubuntu_utah_somethineelsehere |
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| 00:18.54 | *** part/#uphpu mgeary (n=mgeary@166.70.44.49) |
| 00:34.11 | whiteinge | Crockford on JavaScript: http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4044/4206032023_445cddb027_b.jpg |
| 00:55.05 | mindjuju | anybody around? |
| 00:55.17 | romanovic | for a bit |
| 00:55.24 | mindjuju | so quick linux question |
| 00:55.44 | mindjuju | i hve set in interfaces that the ip address should be 192.168.x.x |
| 00:56.06 | mindjuju | but it seems like every 3 hours, it reverts back to an old IP address it used to get from a dhcp server |
| 00:56.10 | mindjuju | any ideas? |
| 00:56.16 | mindjuju | maybe i should reboot |
| 00:56.40 | mindjuju | it used to be on dhcp |
| 00:56.55 | DexterTheDragon | mindjuju: pastebin whats in your interfaces file |
| 00:57.25 | mindjuju | sorry, old habits die hard, server is in process of reboot, but should be back up here short |
| 00:57.27 | mindjuju | :( |
| 00:57.33 | mindjuju | it's the windows man in me |
| 00:58.43 | mindjuju | DtD - http://pastebin.ca/1724361 |
| 00:59.01 | mindjuju | but it was reverting back to the dhcp given .147 |
| 00:59.13 | mindjuju | so here is the full deal on this |
| 00:59.17 | mindjuju | i just set it up as a server |
| 00:59.35 | mindjuju | i let it get a dhcp ip address during setup |
| 00:59.39 | mindjuju | patched it, everything |
| 00:59.48 | mindjuju | THEN changed the IP address in interfaces |
| 01:00.02 | mindjuju | and did the ole /etc/init.d/networking restart |
| 01:00.03 | DexterTheDragon | everything looks fine |
| 01:00.12 | mindjuju | and then ifconfig |
| 01:00.23 | mindjuju | and it would stick but then 3 hours later, it was back to the 147 |
| 01:00.29 | mindjuju | maybe the reboot will fix it |
| 01:00.32 | mindjuju | i'll know at 9p |
| 01:00.35 | mindjuju | :) |
| 01:00.51 | romanovic | i had that problem with a server |
| 01:01.15 | mindjuju | glad it wasn't just me |
| 01:01.33 | mindjuju | i seemto bug DtD and fungus incessantly |
| 01:01.40 | romanovic | was specifying an ip address, but still had the rest of the network obtaining addresses from the router |
| 01:01.59 | mindjuju | though i would like to think it has tappered off since i got the Linux Bible from heartsbane and Beginning the LInux command line book |
| 01:02.01 | romanovic | then installed dd-wrt and permanently leased the server its own ip and haven't had an issue since |
| 01:04.32 | mindjuju | while i'm not as big of fan to cats as i am to dogs, this is funny http://video.yahoo.com/network/100284668?v=5722676&l=3774740 |
| 01:58.48 | *** join/#uphpu supernovia (n=Velda@c-98-202-112-234.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 02:07.33 | supernovia | hi DexterTheDragon. Nice tree :) |
| 02:07.41 | DexterTheDragon | thanks |
| 02:07.54 | supernovia | We got one too - it's a bit funny looking |
| 02:08.07 | supernovia | especially after the kids threw icicles all over it. But it's cute enough :) |
| 02:08.26 | mindjuju | any pics? |
| 02:08.40 | supernovia | DexterTheDragon just posted one on Twitter |
| 02:08.43 | supernovia | I can catch one now :) |
| 02:09.02 | mindjuju | it's on fb too |
| 02:09.10 | mindjuju | twas meaning yours supernovia |
| 02:10.30 | DexterTheDragon | mindjuju: http://www.djinsomniacmusic.com/podcasts/Winter%20of%20Insomnia%202009%20Podcast%20Edition.m4a |
| 02:10.33 | supernovia | I'll post a couple |
| 02:11.12 | DexterTheDragon | stupid fedex busted my aquarium decoration |
| 02:11.39 | supernovia | d'oh |
| 02:11.46 | supernovia | I was wondering what was broken |
| 02:12.44 | mindjuju | DtD, Supernovia - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rNgCnY1lPg |
| 02:15.16 | supernovia | kids just said "Is that a real site?" |
| 02:15.32 | mindjuju | it's making fun of facebook |
| 02:15.38 | mindjuju | from the IT Crowd |
| 02:15.42 | mindjuju | love that show |
| 02:15.51 | supernovia | hehe yeah |
| 02:15.59 | supernovia | I thought their reaction was funny |
| 02:16.14 | supernovia | hopefully they didn't understand the chica with the black boxes for an outfit..hehe |
| 02:16.31 | mindjuju | sorry! |
| 02:16.50 | supernovia | hehe, it's OK. It was a cartoon and I dont' think they know what black bars mean |
| 02:24.18 | supernovia | I would blog more if I didn't feel obligated to actually communicate |
| 02:28.49 | DexterTheDragon | just saw the ups truck head down the street in the wrong direction :( |
| 02:29.44 | supernovia | you've got ups stuff coming in too? |
| 02:30.19 | DexterTheDragon | yeah |
| 02:33.48 | supernovia | coolio |
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| 02:38.57 | supernovia | holy cow. |
| 02:39.38 | mindjuju | ? |
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| 03:16.57 | supernovia | sorry mindjuju - |
| 03:17.19 | supernovia | we had some interesting knocks at the door while I was trying to write up something about the Christmas tree |
| 03:18.58 | supernovia | I don't know who is being so nice to us but it is incredible :) |
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| 16:51.35 | beandog | wth |
| 16:51.41 | beandog | I hate it when people contact me 5 times in 4 minutes |
| 16:51.53 | beandog | then when I send them something back asking a question, I don't hear from them. |
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| 16:53.08 | beandog | gonna drive me to drink |
| 17:00.54 | xtrementl | beandog: lol i know the feeling |
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| 17:06.49 | utahcon | I love instant communication... well I love ignoring instant communication. |
| 17:10.21 | xtrementl | email is better |
| 17:10.24 | xtrementl | for that |
| 17:11.17 | beandog | xtrementl: amen, brotah |
| 17:20.39 | sontek | I prefer twitter over e-mail, makes sure they get right to the ponit! ;) |
| 17:20.56 | xtrementl | lol |
| 17:21.05 | xtrementl | 160 chars.. MAX |
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| 17:25.22 | beandog | thats whats great about it |
| 17:25.28 | beandog | makes people choose their words carefully |
| 17:25.44 | mgeary | psh |
| 17:25.46 | mgeary | yeah, right |
| 17:25.47 | beandog | or just use lolspeek |
| 17:26.01 | mgeary | that's what twitter is, a bunch of carefully thought-out gems |
| 17:26.14 | beandog | twitter is awesome |
| 17:26.21 | beandog | dont be knocking it man |
| 17:26.28 | mgeary | not knocking it |
| 17:26.39 | macnewbold | I've decided to make a point of calling them "twits" instead of "tweets" |
| 17:26.39 | mgeary | just saying i don't think people necessarily choose their words carefully when using it |
| 17:26.42 | beandog | ~tweet mgeary |
| 17:26.52 | macnewbold | ~twit beandog |
| 17:27.01 | herlo | heh |
| 17:27.07 | beandog | I tweet alllllllllllll the freaking time |
| 17:27.08 | macnewbold | herlo twits too |
| 17:27.35 | mindjuju | i think the verb for twitter is tweet |
| 17:27.48 | mindjuju | so that'd be herlo tweets too |
| 17:27.51 | beandog | I think he meant to say, herlo's a twit |
| 17:28.45 | stderr | "makes people choose their words carefully" lol |
| 17:28.46 | stderr | http://twitter.com/SarahPalinUSA/status/6823906156 |
| 17:29.15 | beandog | lol wtc? |
| 17:29.20 | beandog | oh my horrible background |
| 17:29.22 | romanovic | mgeary: pm? |
| 17:29.23 | mgeary | ions, huh |
| 17:29.41 | herlo | macnewbold: no, I twot |
| 17:29.50 | herlo | get the term correct people |
| 17:30.36 | wps | what the crap? Sarah types like a 13 year old girl texting |
| 17:33.25 | beandog | I think its time for breakfast |
| 17:34.23 | xtrementl | wps: yeah.. that's terrible.. lovely tiled background too |
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| 17:35.16 | utahcon | xtrementl: hey cool it... Sarah doesn't know the internet display in anything other than 640x480 |
| 17:38.07 | wps | song just popped into my head (Buy Me A Condo, by Weird Al): http://www.com-www.com/weirdal/buymeacondo.html |
| 17:41.05 | macnewbold | what song is it based on? |
| 17:41.18 | wps | good question |
| 17:41.25 | wps | most of his are based on something, although a few aren't |
| 17:41.27 | wps | I'm not sure about this one |
| 17:41.40 | wps | here's the song on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztCrH4ZwySc |
| 17:42.22 | wps | or iTunes: http://itunes.apple.com/us/album/buy-me-a-condo/id250495308?i=250495329 |
| 17:42.26 | utahcon | Buffalo Soldier by Bob Marley |
| 17:42.32 | xtrementl | haha |
| 17:43.08 | macnewbold | wow, she sure twits like an illiterate teenager: http://twitter.com/SarahPalinUSA |
| 17:43.18 | wps | thanks, Utah_Dave |
| 17:43.20 | wps | oops |
| 17:43.26 | wps | nice auto-complete fail |
| 17:43.34 | wps | thanks, utahcon |
| 17:43.35 | utahcon | np |
| 17:43.42 | beandog | macnewbold: wow |
| 17:43.46 | wps | ~lart tab |
| 17:43.46 | ibot | eats tab's liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti |
| 17:43.46 | beandog | is that really her account? |
| 17:43.50 | utahcon | wps: not sure it is exaclty that song, but it is close. |
| 17:44.17 | macnewbold | beandog: i'm pretty sure... i don't think you can make that crap up. |
| 17:44.32 | macnewbold | she sure is bursty though.... 6-10 in one day, then a week of silence, then 6-10 more |
| 17:44.34 | beandog | well mostly its just boring |
| 17:44.47 | macnewbold | and to think, she was almost VP |
| 17:44.49 | mgeary | i'm guessing she's got one of her kids doing it for her |
| 17:44.52 | utahcon | macnewbold: she is busy |
| 17:45.09 | macnewbold | that would have elicited a lot of prayers for the safety and wellbeing of the president... |
| 17:46.06 | xtrementl | seems like she drops out random letters and forgets spaces wherever possible |
| 17:46.15 | xtrementl | utahcon: which songs? |
| 17:46.16 | herlo | utahcon: you are odd |
| 17:47.20 | utahcon | xtrementl: Kings of Crunk album right now |
| 17:47.27 | utahcon | herlo: I like lots of different things |
| 17:48.20 | wps | s/wises/wishes/ |
| 17:48.23 | utahcon | lol |
| 17:48.49 | wps | a few moments of my life I'll never get back |
| 17:49.52 | xtrementl | guys just passed around a star wars disc... a capacitance electronic disc |
| 17:52.14 | utahcon | wps: but now you never have to google eastside boyz again |
| 17:52.31 | wps | indeed |
| 17:57.33 | stderr | macnewbold: haha, "John McCain's end of life healthcare plan: Sarah Palin as VP" |
| 17:57.49 | wps | I hate the inconsistency between PHP functionsâhow some return the results and some just change the actual subject |
| 17:58.36 | stderr | wps: in Ruby, they have a neat semantic tool for that. Methods / functions that change the calling object end with a "!" |
| 17:58.47 | stderr | (and methods that return a boolean end with a "?") |
| 17:58.53 | stderr | neat little things like that help immensely. |
| 17:59.58 | wps | seems like it'd be even easier with just one wayâ¦Â probably all functions returning the result |
| 18:00.10 | stderr | well, depends on the type of operation you're doing. |
| 18:00.28 | stderr | in Ruby, they'll have two methods, let's say... "sort" and "sort!" |
| 18:00.30 | wps | asort() for example |
| 18:01.01 | wps | (the one I am using right now) |
| 18:01.11 | wps | seems really strange to me that it doesn't return the result |
| 18:01.13 | stderr | some_array.sort will return a new array, some_array.sort! will do operations upon the existing "some_array" construct. |
| 18:01.46 | wps | I guess that's nice that you get to have it both ways |
| 18:01.57 | macnewbold | alias please=sudo |
| 18:01.59 | macnewbold | please sort |
| 18:02.50 | stderr | I have so many aliases... |
| 18:02.55 | wps | is that like private/public, macnewbold :) |
| 18:03.03 | wps | function please sort() {} |
| 18:05.57 | macnewbold | it just sounds so much nicer to say "please make install" or "please make sandwich" than "sudo make sandwich" |
| 18:15.08 | utahcon | Not worth watching the whole thing... but... they wrapped this guys entire apt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afreOsPe83M |
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| 18:21.11 | wps | do you use Ruby much, stderr ? |
| 18:21.20 | wps | I thought you coded mostly in Python |
| 18:21.42 | justincarmony | oh, in mindjuju here? |
| 18:21.54 | wps | mindjuju lives here |
| 18:22.00 | justincarmony | is* |
| 18:22.41 | stderr | wps: I code in both. |
| 18:22.56 | stderr | mostly Ruby nowadays. |
| 18:23.23 | wps | ruby has to be compiled, right? |
| 18:23.30 | stderr | Nope. |
| 18:23.44 | wps | I got the impression it did for some reason |
| 18:24.07 | wps | what are the gems? |
| 18:24.45 | stderr | 'gems' are various libraries written by the community. |
| 18:24.56 | stderr | Much like Python eggs, but more powerful. |
| 18:25.36 | wps | like PEAR? |
| 18:25.47 | stderr | Yea, in essence. |
| 18:26.20 | wps | I've never used libraries, so just grabbing something I can kind of relate it to |
| 18:27.15 | stderr | stuff that isn't acceptable in the core language (various XML parsers, HTML sanitizers, authentication systems, etc, etc, etc) |
| 18:27.41 | mgeary | hey, i've got "find" piping some filenames into xargs, but some of the filenames have parentheses in them, so it's not working right. How can i get those escaped or quoted in some way? |
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| 18:38.42 | mgeary | afaik, the only reason to use Ruby is rails |
| 18:39.06 | mgeary | and python is sooo nice.... |
| 18:40.05 | SunSparc | mgeary: Why is python nice? |
| 18:40.20 | stderr | mgeary: well that's ridiculous. Ruby is a great language in its own right. |
| 18:40.30 | stderr | Rails 2+ _is_ pretty great, however. |
| 18:41.19 | orsonj | and you can compile it to java bytecode if you like |
| 18:41.30 | Dezertol | ? |
| 18:41.38 | Dezertol | you can compile ruby into Java? |
| 18:41.49 | orsonj | you can actually do that with a few languages |
| 18:41.54 | Dezertol | wow.. |
| 18:41.56 | Dezertol | I had no idea |
| 18:42.18 | orsonj | the advantage is you can run your favorite language on a java server of which there are plenty |
| 18:42.40 | stderr | yea, JRuby is pretty nice. |
| 18:42.49 | Dezertol | I've never cooded Java or ruby |
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| 18:42.59 | stderr | you can do the same thing with Python |
| 18:43.00 | Dezertol | why would I pick one over the other |
| 18:43.11 | Dezertol | or python for that matter |
| 18:43.24 | stderr | well, personally, I think Python and Ruby are both superior to Java (and certainly PHP). |
| 18:43.48 | Dezertol | in what way? |
| 18:43.54 | Dezertol | opinion is usless |
| 18:44.02 | stderr | Man, I've broken this down on a monthly basis for the past 4 years. |
| 18:44.05 | stderr | Google the logs. |
| 18:45.12 | Dezertol | lol right.. that's going to happen |
| 18:45.23 | orsonj | For starters they do things other than loops, functions, conditions and classes |
| 18:45.31 | stderr | (not to be mean about it or anything, but I have seriously been having this same conversation in #uphpu for the past 4 years) |
| 18:45.39 | justincarmony | ping mindjuju |
| 18:45.43 | jtsnow | Java has its uses. You're not going to create a desktop application like Eclipse in Python or Ruby, but for the web, Python and Ruby are superior |
| 18:46.06 | Dezertol | which i'm sure is why facebook is in php |
| 18:46.20 | stderr | jtsnow: That's untrue. You can write great desktop apps in Python (and Ruby to a lesser extent). |
| 18:46.24 | stderr | Dezertol: they use it very, very minimally. |
| 18:47.04 | justincarmony | I think they use PHP for displaying their front end stuff |
| 18:47.16 | jtsnow | stderr: I know it is possible, but Python just doesn't have as many tools for creating GUIs |
| 18:47.30 | jtsnow | yeah, facebook has a ton of backend stuff in C++ |
| 18:47.30 | justincarmony | I think they use other languages for a lot of their backend processes and scripts and stuff |
| 18:47.31 | Dezertol | blender is in python |
| 18:47.35 | stderr | jtsnow: well, since you have JPython, most of the GUI stuff Java provides _can_ be used in Python. |
| 18:47.49 | stderr | jtsnow: But people have had a lot of success using Python for GUI applications. |
| 18:47.56 | stderr | See: synic and his baby Exaile |
| 18:48.19 | Dezertol | my only point is that I've not hear a convincing reason to scrap 10 years of php expirence and just throw my hand in the air to go running off to ruby or python |
| 18:48.34 | stderr | Noone's telling you to. |
| 18:48.38 | Dezertol | all of it's opinion |
| 18:49.08 | jtsnow | it is nice to have multiple tools in your belt |
| 18:49.16 | stderr | Not really, Python is a stronger language. It provides numerous functional programming paradigms that are extremely useful, as well as what many consider to be a superior OOP framework. |
| 18:49.27 | stderr | (screw it, I'll get down in the dirt again). |
| 18:49.30 | Dezertol | I've not found anything I can't do in perl, php, c, c++, or .net |
| 18:49.47 | stderr | PHP basically uses the Java/C++ OOP semantic, which is more of a "class-oriented programming" system. |
| 18:49.52 | Dezertol | it's hard for me to justify picking up yet another lanugage |
| 18:50.02 | stderr | As opposed to a pure "object" system such as Ruby or Python (or, for that matter, Smalltalk). |
| 18:50.28 | Dezertol | ok. |
| 18:50.33 | Dezertol | I'm fine with that.. |
| 18:50.35 | stderr | Python and Ruby's flexibility, as well as their superior grammar, allows you to create much better and easier to utilize DSLs |
| 18:51.17 | stderr | When I code in Python or Ruby, the result is 1) much easier to refactor (if it needs refactoring), 2) much closer to my *internal* language for logic |
| 18:51.23 | stderr | And it's prettier, too. |
| 18:51.33 | jtsnow | usually tends to be less code as well |
| 18:51.55 | Dezertol | why would you take python over rails |
| 18:51.59 | Dezertol | er... ruby |
| 18:52.01 | orsonj | http://blog.dhananjaynene.com/2008/07/performance-comparison-c-java-python-ruby-jython-jruby-groovy/ |
| 18:52.02 | Dezertol | i mean |
| 18:52.42 | stderr | Well, personally, I think Python is easier to move to than Ruby is. Ruby introduces some pretty advanced CS topics that many programmers are unfamiliar with, and may utilize the wrong way (see: Rails prior to 2, and even some parts of 2) |
| 18:53.08 | SunSparc | stderr: You should just write an article about it and post it on the web so you can just ping the link to people. |
| 18:53.14 | orsonj | That link is in part why I think there are projects like jruby and jpython |
| 18:53.28 | stderr | SunSparc: probably a good idea. |
| 18:53.58 | Dezertol | i'm not opososed to learning a new language |
| 18:54.04 | tierra | haha, that performance comparison is so screwed up... |
| 18:54.08 | Dezertol | i'm consirned that once I hand the project off |
| 18:54.16 | mgeary | orsonj: performance is one of the least important issues for 99% of all web apps |
| 18:54.21 | Dezertol | they won't be able to fined someone to work on it |
| 18:54.32 | tierra | I love it when people try to make comparisons between compiled instructions and interpreted languages |
| 18:54.42 | Dezertol | most of my work is a one time thing |
| 18:54.49 | orsonj | I'm just saying, write something in the language of your choice, then compile it to java to get a free performance boost |
| 18:54.57 | stderr | well, you'll be able to find a Ruby programmer for a project, I can guarantee that. However, the cost of a Ruby or Python programmer is, most likely, going to be far more than a PHP programmer. |
| 18:55.13 | Dezertol | there in lies the issues |
| 18:55.16 | mgeary | ...which is one of the reasons i first got into python |
| 18:55.39 | Dezertol | if I have to hire someone to maintain something |
| 18:55.42 | stderr | orsonj: While I absolutely abhor Java the language, their VM is pretty awesome. |
| 18:56.27 | stderr | Dezertol: certainly, it's something that you must consider. But Python and Ruby programmers are becoming more and more abundant, so I presume that problem will slowly fade. |
| 18:56.45 | Dezertol | a die hard ruby guy I work with says.. ruby on rails doesn't scale very well is that true? |
| 18:57.11 | mgeary | scalability also tends not to be an issue for 99% of web applications ;) |
| 18:57.23 | stderr | it's as hard to scale as anything else. |
| 18:57.25 | orsonj | I agree. I am taking a java class right now. It is goofy. |
| 18:57.33 | mgeary | but it is true that django doesn't scale very easily |
| 18:57.55 | mgeary | but hey, y'all ignored my find/xargs question above! |
| 18:58.06 | mgeary | i'll repost for your convenience |
| 18:58.06 | mgeary | hey, i've got "find" piping some filenames into xargs, but some of the filenames have parentheses in them, so it's not working right. How can i get those escaped or quoted in some way? |
| 18:58.21 | stderr | mgeary: oh, yea, the find/xargs question. Insert a sed or perl or ruby one liner between the two. |
| 18:58.34 | Dezertol | just pipe it to sed first |
| 18:58.39 | orsonj | I think you may need the -0 option |
| 18:58.40 | Dezertol | and strip them out |
| 18:59.40 | mgeary | can't strip them out. i'd need to escape them, or ideally quote them |
| 19:00.14 | stderr | alternatively just write a Python or Ruby script to solve the problem. |
| 19:00.25 | orsonj | yes, -print0 on the find command and -0 on the xargs command |
| 19:00.25 | Dezertol | so just for hypothetical reasons.. say you where to start your own web development company considering price, and the number of hosting solutions out there.. what language would you pick |
| 19:00.42 | Dezertol | if you could only pick 1 |
| 19:00.49 | stderr | only one language? |
| 19:00.52 | Dezertol | ya |
| 19:00.58 | stderr | I wouldn't start a company that used only one language. |
| 19:01.06 | Dezertol | I know.. neither would I |
| 19:01.07 | stderr | but... probably Ruby |
| 19:01.15 | Dezertol | I'm just trying to cut to brass tax |
| 19:01.38 | Dezertol | and would you use rails or would you make your own or use one of the others out there |
| 19:01.54 | Dezertol | there are several ruby frameworks.. that I hear are better then rails |
| 19:01.58 | orsonj | do scala |
| 19:02.07 | stderr | Depends on the problem, but I'd probably use Rails for most stuff, Sinatra for others. |
| 19:02.31 | stderr | well, Merb is often the framework that's said to be better than Rails (especially Rails prior to 2) |
| 19:02.38 | stderr | but Rails and Merb are merging for Rails 3 |
| 19:02.57 | mgeary | orsonj: thanks. that's what i was looking for. couldn't remember how it worked |
| 19:03.10 | Dezertol | what would you say was the larger learning curve.. ruby or python |
| 19:03.15 | mgeary | ruby |
| 19:03.33 | stderr | Definitely Ruby. |
| 19:03.36 | mgeary | not that i've learned it, but that's why i claim that ;) |
| 19:03.52 | Dezertol | lol |
| 19:04.28 | Dezertol | the only reason I'm leaning more toward python is because that's what blender is in |
| 19:04.49 | Dezertol | so all the scripts and output control game logic etc.. is all in python |
| 19:05.47 | macnewbold | the going rate for Ruby work is definitely higher right now, i've seen it at about double the going rate for PHP work from a developer of comparable skill. |
| 19:06.09 | Dezertol | but wouldn't that mean less work... |
| 19:06.10 | stderr | macnewbold: yea, I'd say at least near x2. |
| 19:06.35 | Dezertol | from a CEO standpoint that knows nothing about code.. |
| 19:06.38 | macnewbold | but I expect to see that go away over time - i think the extra high rates are not because they provide more value per hour, but because there's a higher demand for ruby (due to its trendiness mostly) than there are developers available to do the work. |
| 19:06.55 | Dezertol | trying to convince them to pay double for something that does the same thing |
| 19:07.06 | macnewbold | as developers start doing ruby more, cause it pays better, they'll start to see that the rates they get go down |
| 19:07.14 | macnewbold | Dezertol: exactly... |
| 19:07.32 | macnewbold | many people I've seen have gone with ruby because someone who used to work there decided Ruby was best and started building in it, then left |
| 19:07.45 | macnewbold | then they're left with a pile of ruby and nobody to maintain and enhance it, |
| 19:07.47 | Dezertol | ya that's the problem I'm having now |
| 19:07.55 | Dezertol | this ass hat got shit canned |
| 19:07.58 | macnewbold | and the cost of rewriting it all in PHP is prohibitive until they get to a tipping point |
| 19:08.00 | Dezertol | and all the stuff he did was in ruby |
| 19:08.44 | Dezertol | and I'm trying to justify learning it and I just can't seem to get there |
| 19:08.57 | macnewbold | but what they don't often realize is the cost of keeping the ruby running, or the cost of having a crappy system they can't fix for months and months, it would have been best just to bite the bullet when they first got rid of the guy |
| 19:09.31 | macnewbold | there's nothing wrong with ruby technically, but there's also nothing I know of that it can do that PHP can't do about as well. |
| 19:09.38 | Dezertol | and there all pissed. cuz they paid xxxx to get the thing done in the first place |
| 19:09.43 | macnewbold | and logistically, you've got a whole lot more options for PHP devs than Ruby devs, and cheaper too |
| 19:10.23 | Dezertol | I've built my own php framework over the years |
| 19:10.30 | Dezertol | and it's almost 100% classes.. |
| 19:10.31 | macnewbold | Dezertol: exactly... that will teach them to listen to some guy who has a favorite language and leaves them stranded high and dry. of course he tells them ruby is great, but doesn't tell them that its really hard to find decent ruby devs for a competitive price |
| 19:10.39 | Dezertol | and it's fast and efficient |
| 19:10.47 | Dezertol | it's hard for me to let go of it ya know |
| 19:10.53 | macnewbold | maybe he thought it would help his job security, but who knows |
| 19:11.03 | Dezertol | ya |
| 19:11.08 | Dezertol | na |
| 19:11.09 | macnewbold | there's a huge value to sticking with what you and your team are familiar with. |
| 19:11.12 | Dezertol | ne knew he was leaving |
| 19:11.18 | Dezertol | he want's to be a lawyer |
| 19:11.21 | macnewbold | haha |
| 19:11.22 | Dezertol | he's in law school right now |
| 19:11.34 | Dezertol | he wrote it in ruby cuz it's all he knows |
| 19:11.40 | Dezertol | he's a trendy kinda guy |
| 19:11.45 | macnewbold | good thing, cause by the time this company is done with cleaning up the mess, they may want to sue him |
| 19:11.51 | macnewbold | yeah, trends are overrated |
| 19:12.00 | Dezertol | mostly he pisses me off |
| 19:12.06 | Dezertol | he's very arrogrent and cocky |
| 19:12.32 | Dezertol | and he's always trying to shove ruby on me |
| 19:12.32 | macnewbold | even with your own PHP framework, anyone who comes along after you isn't going to know a thing about it, and would have a learning curve to pick up where you left off |
| 19:12.42 | macnewbold | and some guys wouldn't ever really figure it out as it was intended |
| 19:13.03 | macnewbold | ruby's a funny thing... it attracts a very particular type of developer a lot of the time |
| 19:13.03 | mgeary | which is one argument in favor of using a standardized framework |
| 19:13.04 | Dezertol | that's not actually true with my frame work |
| 19:13.11 | *** join/#uphpu redroy (n=Adium@66.60.105.178) |
| 19:13.13 | mgeary | i've built a custom php framework as well |
| 19:13.15 | Dezertol | it's very cut and dry just a clean way of doing things |
| 19:13.17 | jtsnow | I think PHP will have a harder time keeping up with other languages if/when web sockets become popular (http://dev.w3.org/html5/websockets/) |
| 19:13.20 | Dezertol | I've had to hire out help before |
| 19:13.26 | Dezertol | and they picked it up very very quicly |
| 19:13.29 | mgeary | but with django, i get features that i didn't have to build |
| 19:13.30 | jtsnow | because then you're no longer dealing with stateless http |
| 19:13.39 | macnewbold | we've seen a lot of the more emo people jumping on the ruby boat, and tehy tend to hop around from job to job a lot for emotional reasons, leaving a trail of broken or unmaintainable ruby in their wake. |
| 19:14.12 | stderr | Oh, yes, as a security consultant, I have _never_ seen the results of horribly written / broken / unmaintainable PHP code. |
| 19:14.15 | stderr | >_< |
| 19:14.17 | macnewbold | Dezertol: if you wrote your own, nobody else is going to have any experience with it. Every framework I've ever seen has some learning curve, some larger than others. |
| 19:14.30 | Dezertol | ya .. it does.. |
| 19:14.34 | macnewbold | stderr: you can write bad code in any language, definitely |
| 19:14.43 | Dezertol | but.. i'm using xtemplate and a simple db wrapper |
| 19:14.47 | stderr | it's easier in PHP. |
| 19:14.51 | macnewbold | but at least with PHP there are 10x more people you could choose to hire to fix it |
| 19:14.52 | olds | a lot easier |
| 19:14.57 | Dezertol | so.. the people I've hired out to help on projects.. only took them a few minutes |
| 19:15.03 | Dezertol | to know how it all comes togeter |
| 19:15.13 | macnewbold | (perhaps I should have said "stderr, _you_ could write bad code in any language" ;) |
| 19:15.24 | macnewbold | Dezertol: small learning curve is good, but it is still a learning curve |
| 19:15.31 | macnewbold | i've never even heard of xtemplate |
| 19:15.31 | Dezertol | ya.. I know there is |
| 19:15.37 | stderr | pft |
| 19:15.45 | Dezertol | it's the best templating php tool iv'e found |
| 19:15.50 | Dezertol | they even have one for python |
| 19:16.04 | Dezertol | it's basically.. you take a html doc.. |
| 19:16.04 | macnewbold | most home-grown frameworks I've seen are crazy insane and only make sense to their author, so you're lucky to be part of the exception |
| 19:16.14 | Dezertol | put in a few <!-- tags --> |
| 19:16.22 | Dezertol | and use xtemplate to parse them |
| 19:16.39 | macnewbold | Dezertol: isn't that just php? "take an html doc, put in a few <?php ?> tags, and use php to parse them" ;) |
| 19:16.46 | macnewbold | sounds kind of like smarty |
| 19:16.50 | Dezertol | sorta.. |
| 19:17.00 | Dezertol | you can't do any logic in the template tho |
| 19:17.10 | macnewbold | maybe its a bias, but i feel like there are good reasons not to layer another layer of templating (espeically a weaker layer) on top of PHP |
| 19:17.15 | Dezertol | it's just a template |
| 19:17.15 | mgeary | yep |
| 19:17.18 | mgeary | it's a bias ;) |
| 19:17.20 | macnewbold | being able to do logic in the template is a feature, not a bug |
| 19:17.40 | mgeary | template languages++ |
| 19:17.41 | Dezertol | take a look at xtemplate before you judge to harsh |
| 19:17.54 | Dezertol | it's very simple and clean |
| 19:17.59 | Dezertol | I can't deal with smarty |
| 19:18.00 | macnewbold | some very reasonable and good displays need some display logic, which IMHO belongs in the display code/template |
| 19:18.04 | Dezertol | I used that for a while |
| 19:18.06 | Dezertol | and it just got to messy |
| 19:18.18 | macnewbold | yeah, but xtemplate still has its own templating language/syntax to learn |
| 19:18.24 | macnewbold | something else on top of PHP you have to know |
| 19:18.24 | Dezertol | no |
| 19:18.30 | Dezertol | that's what Im' saying |
| 19:18.36 | macnewbold | yuo've got to learn the tags though, right? |
| 19:18.48 | Dezertol | there html comments |
| 19:18.51 | macnewbold | anyway, running late for an appt. but i'll be back |
| 19:18.53 | Dezertol | <!-- BEGIN: main --> |
| 19:18.54 | Dezertol | that's eit |
| 19:18.58 | macnewbold | yeah, html comments that have some meaning inside them |
| 19:19.04 | macnewbold | and you have to know how to express that |
| 19:19.13 | macnewbold | <!-- show the thingy here --> won't do what I intended |
| 19:19.14 | Dezertol | take a look at it before you freak out.. |
| 19:19.18 | macnewbold | i have to know the syntax |
| 19:19.50 | macnewbold | i'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm just saying that it _is_ something extra you'd need to learn, however small you think the learning curve would be |
| 19:20.09 | Dezertol | to your point yes.. |
| 19:20.18 | Dezertol | but my point is there is no logic in the template |
| 19:20.42 | mgeary | no if statements? no loops? |
| 19:20.43 | Dezertol | you add your <!-- BEGIN: this section --> and <!-- END: thissection --> |
| 19:20.48 | Dezertol | correct |
| 19:20.51 | mgeary | bah |
| 19:20.53 | mgeary | what's the point? |
| 19:20.59 | Dezertol | you use the sections.. |
| 19:21.08 | Dezertol | and you can parse them as many times as you want in the code |
| 19:21.19 | Dezertol | or not parse them if you don't want them to show up |
| 19:21.49 | Dezertol | like for a table.. you'd put the data row between start and end section tags |
| 19:22.05 | Dezertol | and in your php where you loop them.. just parse the section for each loop |
| 19:22.17 | mgeary | but then you're doing display logic in php |
| 19:22.19 | mgeary | ick |
| 19:22.34 | mgeary | my php *only* has application logic |
| 19:23.20 | Dezertol | so what .. are you doing then to get the data to the screen |
| 19:23.26 | mgeary | smarty |
| 19:23.38 | Dezertol | I used smarty for a long time |
| 19:23.45 | Dezertol | I won't go back |
| 19:23.48 | mgeary | heh |
| 19:23.50 | jtsnow | yeah, sounds like xtemplate creates *higher* coupling between application and display layers |
| 19:25.33 | Dezertol | http://www.phpxtemplate.org/HomePage |
| 19:25.44 | *** part/#uphpu sontek (n=OES\jand@opensuse/member/Sontek) |
| 19:26.00 | Dezertol | XTemplate allows you to store your HTML code separately from your PHP code (as opposed to compiling your template into PHP as per Smarty etc.). |
| 19:26.05 | Dezertol | that's a quote from there site |
| 19:26.23 | mgeary | meh. i'm not learning any new php technologies. all our new stuff is being done in django |
| 19:27.17 | mgeary | i have no intention of migrating anything to php 5.3 |
| 19:27.32 | Dezertol | sugarcrm is Xtemplate they moved from smarty to |
| 19:28.26 | Dezertol | I'm considering picking up java |
| 19:28.35 | xtrementl | i'm sorry |
| 19:28.39 | Dezertol | only cuz the droid apps are written it |
| 19:28.40 | mgeary | heh. i was going to say that |
| 19:28.53 | jtsnow | I prefer systems that have a pluggable template layer, anyway, so you can pick your templating system |
| 19:29.09 | stderr | HAML/Sass++ |
| 19:32.45 | olds | mgeary: ^5 on the 5.3 comment |
| 19:33.11 | mgeary | ^5 bro |
| 19:33.29 | mgeary | it makes me queasy just thinking about it |
| 19:33.57 | olds | yea |
| 19:34.40 | stderr | Nah bro 5.3 rocks, namespace what\the\hell\were\we\thinking; |
| 19:34.53 | mgeary | seriously |
| 19:35.21 | mgeary | that was the clincher for me |
| 19:35.46 | olds | me too |
| 19:37.59 | stderr | "hey, guys, what character HASN'T been used as a namespace separator??" |
| 19:42.07 | Dezertol | can you run ruby & rails on an existing php server... |
| 19:42.13 | Dezertol | i.e... can it just be a virt host |
| 19:42.24 | Dezertol | or do I need a different webserver for it |
| 19:49.16 | stderr | Your question really is if you can deploy Rails on an Apache server already running PHP? |
| 19:49.19 | stderr | of course. |
| 19:49.45 | Dezertol | can they share virt hosts |
| 19:49.54 | stderr | Rails hook for Apache is just FastCGI. |
| 19:49.58 | Dezertol | like can you have one virt php and one virt for ruby on rails |
| 19:50.04 | Dezertol | o |
| 20:03.18 | cycokilr | you can load specific modules for each virtualhost.. so yes you could do that. |
| 20:04.31 | cycokilr | not much reason to do that though.. just keep your global php module setting and add the rails support.. |
| 20:09.39 | Dezertol | kk so I know there are some ruby and python guys here.. and I'm sure you have knuckled it out.. which is better ruby or python.. |
| 20:13.38 | Dezertol | http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2939556954580527226# |
| 20:13.44 | Dezertol | this is going to take some time |
| 20:13.45 | Dezertol | lol |
| 20:14.10 | utahcon | geez |
| 20:14.13 | utahcon | 3 hour vid |
| 20:14.20 | cycokilr | haha.. yeah nice.. |
| 20:14.22 | Dezertol | lol |
| 20:14.32 | wps | broken URL for me |
| 20:15.02 | Dezertol | http://www.djangoproject.com/snakesandrubies/ |
| 20:15.08 | Dezertol | you can bit torrent the mp4 |
| 20:22.18 | *** join/#uphpu redroy (n=Adium@66.60.105.178) |
| 20:23.01 | utahcon | Yo josephscott what can you tell me about this statement from the WP blog ? "3.0, which is coming next (probably this spring) and will include at the very least the merge of MU with the WordPress core," |
| 20:23.09 | utahcon | how much of MU is being merged? |
| 20:23.32 | josephscott | the intent is to merge the whole thing |
| 20:23.51 | utahcon | so is MU going away? |
| 20:23.52 | josephscott | so there will be no more separate WP/WPMU, just WP, with all of the WPMU features included. |
| 20:24.00 | utahcon | neat |
| 20:24.20 | josephscott | essentially, though it might be more accurate to say it is being merged. None of the WPMU features are going away |
| 20:24.38 | utahcon | Well that is good to hear, I am glad. |
| 20:29.14 | herlo | josephscott: what can you tell us about the migration path for those that are already on wp-mu and will have to go back to core? |
| 20:29.53 | josephscott | That's definitely a use case that we'll have to develop an upgrade path for |
| 20:30.19 | josephscott | but probably not until the merge is well under way, right now the merge hasn't even happened yet :-) |
| 20:32.12 | utahcon | josephscott: is it really looking good for 3.0, or probably more like 3.5? |
| 20:32.45 | josephscott | 2.9 just got released and it Christmas time, give us a chance first |
| 20:32.45 | herlo | cool, I'll keep on your case about it as you get closer :) |
| 20:32.58 | utahcon | lol |
| 20:33.07 | josephscott | right now the main focus of 3.0 is the WPMU/WP merge |
| 20:33.27 | utahcon | freaking awesome. |
| 20:45.52 | macnewbold | Dezertol: I think xtemplate makes a lot more sense than smarty does, but I still think it makes more sense just to use straight PHP (a great and powerful templating language) for your templates |
| 20:46.08 | macnewbold | for example, that's the way cakephp does it |
| 20:46.28 | macnewbold | so any display logic is in the view, and all the business/data logic is in the controllers and models |
| 20:46.39 | macnewbold | and they're all in php |
| 20:46.53 | wps | amen, macnewbold |
| 20:46.53 | Dezertol | ya I can see you point... |
| 20:46.57 | wps | that's how I do it |
| 20:47.02 | wps | use PHP for what it was born for |
| 20:47.14 | wps | why run two parsing engines? |
| 20:47.26 | macnewbold | amen, especially a parsing engine written in another parsing engine? |
| 20:47.57 | macnewbold | if you're going to have logic in your templates, it should be in the language you already are using (php), not the way smarty does it. |
| 20:48.10 | macnewbold | if you're not giong to have logic in your templates, something like xtemplate makes a lot of sense |
| 20:48.11 | herlo | pictures from the UTOS Installfest at the Electroregeneration Society this past Saturday: http://blog.utos.org/2009/12/23/pictures-ergs-and-utos-linux-installfest/ |
| 20:48.16 | macnewbold | awesome |
| 20:48.25 | macnewbold | how many people came? |
| 20:48.31 | herlo | macnewbold: it's in the blog :) |
| 20:48.38 | macnewbold | okay, fine |
| 20:48.46 | macnewbold | i bet you already twot it too |
| 20:48.59 | herlo | lol, yup |
| 20:49.04 | herlo | I twotted it |
| 20:49.05 | macnewbold | and cross posted it to every conceivable irc channel |
| 20:49.09 | herlo | no |
| 20:49.11 | herlo | just most of them |
| 20:49.15 | macnewbold | hehe |
| 20:49.15 | herlo | :-D |
| 20:49.52 | wps | dipstick rams ExperComm in Murray: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNJ0JAbKSIA |
| 20:50.31 | wps | idiot doesn't even unplug the equipment before he takes it |
| 20:53.07 | Dezertol | wow |
| 20:53.11 | Dezertol | what an idiot |
| 20:53.44 | Dezertol | he didn't even cover his license plat |
| 20:53.46 | Dezertol | late |
| 20:53.47 | Dezertol | plate |
| 20:56.23 | tierra | people give smarty a lot of crap, but imho, it's one of the best dataset-driven template engines I've used |
| 20:57.33 | wps | I'm creating a quiz engine |
| 20:57.36 | wps | I have a table for the questions |
| 20:57.42 | wps | and was going to create another for the multiple-choice answers |
| 20:57.50 | wps | I was just thinking that the second table might not be necessary |
| 20:57.59 | wps | all questions will have between 2 and 4 possible answers |
| 20:58.22 | wps | should I just create four hard columns (a, b, c, d) in the question table for the possible answers? |
| 20:58.23 | wps | thoughts? |
| 20:59.19 | Dezertol | what are the odds that someone is going to say.. can we have 5 choices in two months from now |
| 20:59.54 | wps | no idea |
| 21:00.07 | wps | the second table keeps things cleaner I guess (no empty columns) |
| 21:00.21 | mgeary | tierra: amen. i've used it for about 4 years now |
| 21:00.29 | Dezertol | I would be more worried about.. extending it then having blank columns |
| 21:00.46 | mgeary | wps: i always have quizzes fully normalized |
| 21:01.48 | tierra | I might make a multiple_choice_answers table instead that has columns like: question_id, answer_id, answer_text... separate of your questions table which references an answer_id for the correct answer... |
| 21:02.21 | tierra | that would probably be the most flexible. |
| 21:02.30 | wps | I can't imagine answers being reused though |
| 21:02.41 | wps | I think I'll go with the second table |
| 21:03.05 | wps | so that they can have infinite number of possible answers per question |
| 21:03.16 | wps | no sense in limiting the possibilities |
| 21:10.46 | macnewbold | tierra: if smarty weren't built on top of PHP, I'd have no problem with it. Smarty is loads better than straight html. But it's a dumber version of PHP, written in PHP, always used with PHP, so I don't see the point. If it were usable standalone to templatize plain HTML/CSS/JS, I'd be down with it. |
| 21:12.11 | macnewbold | wps: i think you'll be happier that way. make sure your column types match up for the foreign keys, and that you have the right indices in place, or your queries might get slow when doing the joins. |
| 21:12.42 | wps | thanks, macnewbold |
| 21:13.17 | macnewbold | we've done it that way several times, and never been disappointed. |
| 21:13.26 | Dezertol | so.. i'm 1 hour into that video on django vs rails.. and so far.. it sounds like.. django is do what you want we can handle anything and rails is like.. don't go out of the box of what most people want to do |
| 21:13.33 | tierra | in other words, you hate all dataset-driven template engines... |
| 21:13.34 | macnewbold | then the same format works for true/false, multiple choice, abcd+none of the above, etc. |
| 21:13.37 | wps | macnewbold: you have a baptismal font in your office? |
| 21:14.09 | wps | http://codegreene.com/img/space-backend.jpg |
| 21:14.33 | herlo | haha, not a baptismal font |
| 21:14.34 | macnewbold | tierra: no, not at all. there's nothing inherently wrong with them, I just think it was a bad idea to build one on top of another perfectly good templating language. |
| 21:14.38 | macnewbold | wps: yeah, just about |
| 21:14.38 | itimber | haha |
| 21:14.41 | Dezertol | lol |
| 21:14.44 | macnewbold | it's really a skylight into the lower level |
| 21:14.50 | Dezertol | ah.. |
| 21:14.53 | wps | and what's with the arcade game with no controls? |
| 21:14.53 | macnewbold | but it looks like a fish pond if you're not careful |
| 21:14.55 | macnewbold | or a font |
| 21:15.03 | Dezertol | that would be awsome if was a "wish pond" for the developers |
| 21:15.05 | macnewbold | wps: it's a MAME box that we haven't finished quite yet |
| 21:15.11 | Dezertol | toss in a coin and make a wish |
| 21:15.14 | tierra | PHP may be a template engine itself, but it isn't a dataset-driven template engine |
| 21:15.22 | macnewbold | a client who is a carpenter built us the cabinet in trade, but we haven't put in the controls yet |
| 21:15.29 | wps | cool |
| 21:15.31 | macnewbold | tierra: true, but it easily can be used as one |
| 21:15.37 | tierra | there's some really good reasons and uses for still using Smarty along with PHP |
| 21:15.44 | macnewbold | Dezertol: we have a good supply of change on top of the glass at any given time |
| 21:15.54 | macnewbold | tierra: name a few... convince me ;) |
| 21:16.00 | tierra | it can easily be used as one, but really poorly as compared with Smarty |
| 21:16.01 | Dezertol | cool |
| 21:16.07 | wps | yeah, like the fulfilling challenge of learning and remembering a new language (syntax)! |
| 21:16.56 | tierra | well, first off, one of the main points is that your designers only need to learn Smarty, not PHP |
| 21:17.14 | wps | but why have them learn smarty over PHP? |
| 21:17.17 | wps | they don't have to learn all of PHP |
| 21:17.23 | tierra | because they don't need to learn how to program |
| 21:17.36 | wps | the parts of PHP that they would need to learn aren't any harder to learn than smarty's syntax |
| 21:17.39 | jtsnow | but it doesn't hurt them |
| 21:17.43 | macnewbold | tierra: it it needs logic, i don't want my designers doing it anyway, primarily because they don't know how to program |
| 21:18.10 | tierra | any harder to you, but designers aren't good programmers... I've never met a good designer who was also a good programmer |
| 21:18.32 | tierra | heh |
| 21:18.40 | wps | I don't buy the argument that PHP's syntax is harder to someone learning any syntax for the first time |
| 21:18.49 | tierra | it needs logic if you just used PHP directly instead of Smarty |
| 21:20.18 | macnewbold | exactly |
| 21:20.32 | macnewbold | and if it doesn't need logic, why do you need Smarty or Xtemplates in the first place? |
| 21:21.56 | wps | KSL's reporting sucks |
| 21:22.03 | wps | "man of missing woman left the state!!!" |
| 21:22.17 | wps | yes, he went to spend time with family in Washington and to attend a vigil there |
| 21:22.33 | wps | "man of missing women put hundreds of miles on a rental car!!!" |
| 21:22.42 | wps | yes, because the police impounded his minivan |
| 21:23.19 | Dezertol | a think for me.. a lot of the reason I use XTemplate is because every page that loads is a method of a class |
| 21:23.31 | Dezertol | I do not load any flat files |
| 21:24.05 | macnewbold | yeah, it's like that in MVC frameworks as well |
| 21:24.23 | Dezertol | so.. I could make a template with embeded php |
| 21:24.31 | Dezertol | but then I've got to figure how to parse them |
| 21:24.34 | Dezertol | anyway |
| 21:24.53 | macnewbold | wps: i'm with you... KSL is better than most even, but the media is all so full of hype, anything to make the story sound more exciting |
| 21:24.54 | Dezertol | pulling templates out of the database |
| 21:25.12 | wps | that's how template engine works, Dezertol |
| 21:25.12 | macnewbold | Dezertol: or just include them, and let PHP parse them... :-D |
| 21:25.23 | wps | PHP in the business logic and PHP in the display logic |
| 21:25.24 | Dezertol | right |
| 21:25.56 | wps | mine uses eval and the buffer |
| 21:27.48 | Dezertol | pulling data from a database that has php tags in it to parse is not optimal |
| 21:28.29 | wps | I don't see anything wrong with it, especially if you cache the results |
| 21:29.15 | Dezertol | is there a way to pull data out of a db in the form of a string and then parse it via php |
| 21:29.24 | Dezertol | while it's a string in a var inside php? |
| 21:30.07 | Dezertol | o.. right eval |
| 21:30.16 | Dezertol | never mind.. I just forgot that's even possible |
| 21:30.28 | *** join/#uphpu Jacolyte (n=blaine@unaffiliated/jacolyte) |
| 21:34.52 | wps | let's go, utahcon |
| 21:35.48 | wps | I have a brand new 870 that I still haven't shot yet |
| 21:37.54 | jsmith | wps: Can I come too? |
| 21:37.58 | wps | absolutely |
| 21:38.03 | wps | get on a plane! |
| 21:38.20 | jsmith | In fact, I wonder how the clay pigeons would look on the white snow... |
| 21:38.56 | jsmith | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:39.06 | jsmith | Shoot... why climb on a plane? |
| 21:39.38 | wps | well, I figured if you were asking to come, you'd be _coming_ to join _us_ :) |
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| 21:41.34 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v swb] by ChanServ |
| 21:46.38 | mgeary | jsmith: look out, it's the guv'ment! hide the guns! |
| 21:48.02 | jsmith | mgeary: It's not me they need to worry about |
| 21:49.51 | wps | ha ha |
| 21:49.56 | wps | I just tried ucfirst() on an array |
| 21:50.21 | cycokilr | any good? |
| 21:50.29 | wps | no error :) |
| 22:08.33 | wps | wish I could give you mine |
| 22:08.56 | utahcon | justincarmony: netbeans... really? |
| 22:21.07 | jtsnow | I've switched to netbeans... it's great! |
| 22:29.04 | romanovic | no joke |
| 22:29.39 | mgeary | $8.67? |
| 22:29.46 | mgeary | dude. 'grats |
| 22:33.29 | romanovic | yeah. lets hope the dinar increases. after the elections, perhaps? |
| 22:35.44 | macnewbold | are you in/near iraq at the moment, have a boss from iraq, or none of the above? |
| 22:35.52 | macnewbold | i'm wondering why he chose Dinars. |
| 22:36.16 | macnewbold | here, if we were giving someone a <$10 bonus, we'd probably take them to as nice of a lunch as you can get for $10 |
| 22:36.22 | Dezertol | probally thought it would be funny |
| 22:38.13 | macnewbold | more like insulting... |
| 22:43.55 | mgeary | i remember my first year at Novell |
| 22:44.14 | mgeary | it was right before they sold off the "Biz Apps" (WordPerfect, etc.), 1994 |
| 22:44.32 | mgeary | i was hired on in ~Sept., and there was talk that there would be a bonus. I was all excited |
| 22:44.39 | orsonj | I have to admit, the netbeans editor doesn't seem too bad. however, it does use more ram than vim |
| 22:44.46 | mgeary | turns out, you had to be there the entire year to get any bonus at all. :/ |
| 22:45.17 | mgeary | my teammates all chipped in and bought me two movie tickets as a consolation |
| 22:47.23 | SunSparc | lol |
| 22:47.35 | SunSparc | ~console mgeary |
| 22:47.36 | ibot | ACTION gives mgeary the consolation moose |
| 23:00.31 | *** join/#uphpu _psychic__ (n=_psychic@173-8-91-177-Utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 23:00.31 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v _psychic__] by ChanServ |
| 23:10.19 | justincarmony | utahcon: yes, netbeans :P |
| 23:12.24 | justincarmony | lol mgeary , I have a friend who worked tons of overtime w/o pay, and promised a bonus |
| 23:12.49 | mgeary | didn't happen? |
| 23:15.17 | justincarmony | two weeks before he was supose to get it, they told him them the amount |
| 23:15.26 | justincarmony | it was pretty significant |
| 23:15.36 | justincarmony | the day of, they gave him the check |
| 23:15.41 | justincarmony | and 2 hours later, took it back |
| 23:15.55 | Dezertol | ouch |
| 23:15.55 | justincarmony | cause corporate called and said all bonuses were cancels |
| 23:15.59 | justincarmony | yeah |
| 23:16.10 | mgeary | ouch |
| 23:16.14 | Dezertol | note to self take lunch early and cash that check |
| 23:16.20 | mgeary | seriously |
| 23:16.50 | Dezertol | did he turn in his notice |
| 23:16.58 | Dezertol | cuz that would have been enough to make me quit |
| 23:17.17 | justincarmony | lol, he turned in his notice once he landed a new job |
| 23:17.40 | justincarmony | they offered him a great raise, and he said "hell no" |
| 23:22.26 | mgeary | so, is it inappropriate for me to ask how many folks here got bonuses this year? |
| 23:24.42 | influx | I got no bonus. |
| 23:24.46 | influx | I have no jeooorb |
| 23:25.20 | mgeary | our employees got bonuses, but owners didn't get one |
| 23:25.56 | wps | is there more than one owner? |
| 23:25.59 | mgeary | 2 |
| 23:26.33 | mgeary | you don't think they'd let me run a business by myself, do you? |
| 23:27.06 | wps | :) |
| 23:28.42 | influx | :) |
| 23:29.32 | Dezertol | I got laied off on the 11th |
| 23:29.42 | Dezertol | and won't even get my quarter bonus |
| 23:30.19 | Dezertol | let alone a xmas bonus |
| 23:30.27 | Dezertol | but I did get severance till about mid Jan |
| 23:36.31 | wps | can a case occur twice in a switch, like this? |
| 23:36.31 | wps | http://stikked.com/view/25309856 |
| 23:36.43 | wps | will it get to the second one since there was no break after the first? |
| 23:38.36 | wps | more simple example: http://stikked.com/view/99653322 |
| 23:40.46 | wps | never mindâ¦Â just realized the idea was dumb and won't work |
| 23:41.34 | influx | What were you trying to do? |
| 23:41.57 | wps | reduce redundancy |
| 23:42.11 | influx | ah. |
| 23:42.13 | wps | I have three cases that set a variable to the same value |
| 23:42.33 | orsonj | probably need two different case statements |
| 23:42.43 | wps | I guess I could have two switches |
| 23:43.06 | orsonj | yeah, that |
| 23:43.33 | itimber | case 1: case 2: case 3: $var = true; break; |
| 23:45.35 | itimber | oh, I see.... should've loaded your link |
| 23:46.34 | *** part/#uphpu Utah_Dave (n=David@72-166-51-162.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 23:47.42 | itimber | ya, break will break the switch statement completely.... leaving break out will cause other probs... for $something == 2, you will set $a to 'a', then set $a to 'b', then do the //something on line 15, then break |
