| 00:09.15 | *** join/#uphpu beandog (n=sdibb@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
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| 00:09.51 | beandog | transformers! more than meets the eye, duh dah dah dah |
| 00:12.27 | *** join/#uphpu fungus (n=olsonl@bromine.sosstaffing.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
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| 00:42.30 | stderr | mindjuju: _carmony: I'm up and ready just lemme know |
| 00:53.11 | *** join/#uphpu justincarmony (n=justinca@76.8.222.148) |
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| 00:57.20 | *** join/#uphpu DexterTh1Dragon (n=admin@71-35-200-57.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 00:59.28 | stderr | justincarmony: sup |
| 01:03.49 | *** join/#uphpu Utah_Dave (n=David@c-67-172-225-101.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 01:03.49 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o Utah_Dave] by ChanServ |
| 01:04.52 | Utah_Dave | You all started yet? |
| 01:05.00 | Utah_Dave | mindjuju: are you streaming the meeting tonight? |
| 01:06.43 | stderr | not yet |
| 01:08.10 | *** join/#uphpu beandog (n=sdibb@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 01:08.10 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v beandog] by ChanServ |
| 01:09.50 | beandog | PoeticIntensity: pingeh |
| 01:10.05 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v dataw0lf] by ChanServ |
| 01:15.04 | *** join/#uphpu josephscott (n=josephsc@76.8.222.148) |
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| 01:18.19 | beandog | DexterTheDragon: o hai |
| 01:18.37 | beandog | DexterTheDragon: yomes |
| 01:20.53 | unum | yo yo |
| 01:22.59 | unum | who all here |
| 01:26.17 | *** join/#uphpu fungus (n=olsonl@76.8.222.148) |
| 01:26.25 | unum | allo fungus |
| 01:26.46 | fungus | allo allo |
| 01:26.57 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o fungus] by ChanServ |
| 01:27.41 | beandog | hi unum! |
| 01:29.06 | unum | hi beandog |
| 01:29.47 | beandog | DexterTheDragon: http://dailystrips.sourceforge.net/ |
| 01:29.50 | *** join/#uphpu mastergunns (n=mastergu@c-67-177-20-164.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 01:30.25 | josephscott | what's the 13 steps for PHP users? |
| 01:30.26 | *** part/#uphpu mastergunns (n=mastergu@c-67-177-20-164.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 01:31.32 | unum | don't mix your code in your output |
| 01:31.46 | *** join/#uphpu blendmaster1024 (n=olpc@76.8.222.148) |
| 01:32.22 | unum | don't have every function imaginable in your name space |
| 01:33.13 | unum | consistently implement your functions |
| 01:36.08 | beandog | blendmaster1024: welcome, yo |
| 01:38.06 | blendmaster1024 | i'm at the meeting, shhh |
| 01:38.39 | unum | wish our it manager was here |
| 01:38.56 | unum | he used to do "full" redhat installs |
| 01:39.17 | beandog | well you never know when you need solitaire in a crunch |
| 01:39.41 | unum | or tux racer |
| 01:40.17 | blendmaster1024 | who's here? DexterTheDragon is, i missed a lot of other nicks |
| 01:40.19 | unum | I think he was rather baffled when I said I don't even install X |
| 01:40.45 | beandog | blendmaster1024: fungus, josephscott, Lone_ |
| 01:40.47 | beandog | whoops |
| 01:40.54 | beandog | Lone_Wanderer, mindjuju supernovia |
| 01:40.56 | beandog | xtrementl |
| 01:41.00 | beandog | PoeticIntensity |
| 01:41.08 | Utah_Dave | :( |
| 01:41.11 | beandog | and unum |
| 01:41.18 | beandog | and Im sure I forgot some .. I wasnt paying attention |
| 01:42.54 | unum | he forgot password2 |
| 01:43.05 | unum | oops I mean password1 |
| 01:43.08 | beandog | good thing my password is access52*4* |
| 01:43.09 | unum | darn eeepc |
| 01:43.18 | unum | it all showedin starts |
| 01:43.27 | unum | mine is ********* |
| 01:43.36 | unum | can you see that? |
| 01:44.18 | beandog | yah, IRC magically decrypts it |
| 01:44.36 | unum | doh! |
| 01:44.40 | blendmaster1024 | mine is 24v9j0n5 |
| 01:44.42 | beandog | now I gotta find that bash.org quote.. |
| 01:46.48 | unum | to be fair he did disable all of the services |
| 01:47.15 | unum | but I still think its a bad idea to install stuff you are never going to use |
| 01:47.32 | beandog | http://bash.org/?120398 |
| 01:47.39 | beandog | cant find it but theres a good one |
| 01:47.40 | blendmaster1024 | depends, i install all kinds of stuff on systems i dont connect to the net |
| 01:48.17 | unum | that's different |
| 01:48.23 | unum | dev boxes are different |
| 01:49.27 | blendmaster1024 | yeah i know. that exactly what i was saying |
| 01:52.26 | *** join/#uphpu P0eticIntens1ty (n=jason@76.8.222.148) |
| 01:54.28 | P0eticIntens1ty | Hmm... looks like I'm still logged in at work |
| 01:55.09 | *** join/#uphpu Kemeros (n=Kemeros@64.235.203.171) |
| 01:56.00 | P0eticIntens1ty | wow... it's quiet in here. The presentation must be interesting. |
| 01:56.30 | *** part/#uphpu Kemeros (n=Kemeros@64.235.203.171) |
| 01:56.35 | blendmaster1024 | no he's just talking a lot |
| 01:59.43 | beandog | P0eticIntens1ty: were all securing our netbooks |
| 02:00.04 | josephscott | lyris sounds like a modern version of tripwire |
| 02:00.08 | blendmaster1024 | i'm chatting on #blender... sorry josh |
| 02:00.25 | blendmaster1024 | lynis isn't interesting |
| 02:00.45 | beandog | nice interface at least |
| 02:00.53 | blendmaster1024 | i guess |
| 02:01.00 | DexterTheDragon | I hacked beandog's netbook |
| 02:01.08 | blendmaster1024 | heh |
| 02:01.25 | beandog | oh n0es |
| 02:02.26 | DexterTheDragon | I'm in your netbook stealing your lolcats |
| 02:02.33 | josephscott | oops, my typo, lynis, not lyris (the email list software) |
| 02:02.35 | beandog | that may take some time |
| 02:03.12 | blendmaster1024 | i want some DexterTheDragon |
| 02:03.14 | DexterTheDragon | 323463 lolcats! |
| 02:03.24 | fungus | but lynis is much easier to deal with than tripwire |
| 02:03.45 | unum | I'm runnying lynis on my linode |
| 02:04.14 | fungus | but... they do different things with some overlap. |
| 02:04.40 | blendmaster1024 | tripwire work pretty differently |
| 02:04.59 | beandog | so how do I turn on inetd? |
| 02:05.01 | fungus | wat? inetd is cool |
| 02:05.08 | DexterTheDragon | no its nnot |
| 02:05.10 | fungus | everyone needs to run echo and chargen |
| 02:05.42 | blendmaster1024 | inetd is useless |
| 02:05.46 | beandog | chargen? |
| 02:05.50 | blendmaster1024 | may be cool but useless |
| 02:05.52 | blendmaster1024 | SLOW |
| 02:06.05 | blendmaster1024 | the most important thing is SPEED |
| 02:06.11 | blendmaster1024 | except when its not |
| 02:06.18 | fungus | it |
| 02:06.32 | fungus | s really useful for rarely used services |
| 02:06.35 | fungus | like tftp |
| 02:06.45 | blendmaster1024 | why are you even using tftp? |
| 02:06.53 | beandog | netboot |
| 02:07.19 | blendmaster1024 | last time i checked inetd didn't work with that |
| 02:07.30 | fungus | tftp for switch/router config mgmt, pxeboot etc |
| 02:07.32 | blendmaster1024 | (maybe i need to check again) |
| 02:07.37 | beandog | some of em do |
| 02:07.41 | beandog | theres a couple |
| 02:08.10 | beandog | selinux is a pain on gentoo |
| 02:08.24 | beandog | or so I hear |
| 02:08.25 | blendmaster1024 | selinux is a usefull pain anywhere |
| 02:08.27 | DexterTheDragon | selinux is a pain on everything |
| 02:08.32 | josephscott | used to use tftp all the time for updating the firmware on switches |
| 02:08.58 | blendmaster1024 | firmware on a switch!? |
| 02:09.24 | fungus | yes |
| 02:09.27 | josephscott | yep, managed switches |
| 02:09.35 | fungus | cisco and such |
| 02:09.39 | beandog | josephscott: where do you work, anyway |
| 02:09.55 | josephscott | Automattic for the last 2+ years |
| 02:10.08 | josephscott | before that IT at university for 8 years |
| 02:10.17 | josephscott | before that small ISP for 3 years |
| 02:10.42 | DexterTheDragon | its all a front for a superhero gig |
| 02:10.43 | unum | josephscott is ancient of days |
| 02:10.51 | josephscott | in awesome IT department for 1 year before that |
| 02:10.56 | unum | he took a date to the princess bride |
| 02:10.58 | josephscott | anything before that is nearly ancient history :-) |
| 02:11.04 | beandog | coo |
| 02:11.45 | josephscott | unum: not a date to that movie, but I did see it in a theater in 1987 |
| 02:12.08 | unum | I was 7 |
| 02:14.21 | beandog | regexp isnt boring! |
| 02:14.59 | josephscott | regex is a foreign language, with it's own dialects |
| 02:15.03 | fungus | it |
| 02:15.13 | fungus | s qberts language |
| 02:15.29 | fungus | damn, itty keyboard... |
| 02:16.11 | P0eticIntens1ty | I don't know how you guys type on those. |
| 02:16.18 | P0eticIntens1ty | freakin' tiny. |
| 02:16.27 | beandog | we dont have fat fingers |
| 02:16.30 | P0eticIntens1ty | stop typing. |
| 02:16.38 | P0eticIntens1ty | no |
| 02:16.40 | P0eticIntens1ty | stop |
| 02:16.41 | P0eticIntens1ty | now |
| 02:16.44 | beandog | Im trying to learn here -- you're doing a real disservice!! |
| 02:16.50 | fungus | I just have a gimpy layout on this one. |
| 02:16.53 | P0eticIntens1ty | sheesh |
| 02:18.22 | unum | these 7" ones are hard. i used my friends 9" and wish I had gone with that |
| 02:26.38 | DexterTheDragon | ~rlart |
| 02:26.39 | ibot | DoSes DexterTheDragon |
| 02:26.46 | DexterTheDragon | doh |
| 02:27.05 | DexterTheDragon | ~rlart |
| 02:27.06 | ibot | hauls jnbek|wc up by the scruff of the neck and spanks him until he waddles |
| 02:29.33 | P0eticIntens1ty | hehe... that's a great one |
| 02:30.17 | P0eticIntens1ty | ~lart beandog |
| 02:30.17 | ibot | executes killall -TERM beandog |
| 02:34.17 | unum | be afraid very afraid |
| 02:37.03 | *** join/#uphpu wps (n=wps@208.53.47.251) |
| 02:37.14 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o wps] by ChanServ |
| 02:38.48 | beandog | hey wps |
| 02:40.37 | Utah_Dave | Ah, they finally pushed out an update for Firefox on Windows that fixes the slow start up bug |
| 02:40.41 | wps | good evening |
| 02:41.36 | unum | gotta go |
| 02:42.41 | blendmaster1024 | is unum the guy who just walked out the dooor |
| 02:42.42 | blendmaster1024 | ? |
| 02:43.03 | fungus | yes |
| 02:58.55 | DexterTheDragon | food |
| 02:59.05 | fungus | doof |
| 02:59.17 | blendmaster1024 | gppf |
| 02:59.28 | beandog | noob mistake == using ubuntu |
| 02:59.41 | blendmaster1024 | lol what do you mean? |
| 02:59.51 | beandog | :) |
| 03:00.03 | fungus | ~slap beandog |
| 03:00.04 | ibot | ACTION slaps beandog, keep your grubby fingers to yourself! |
| 03:01.14 | beandog | DexterTheDragon: you payin? |
| 03:01.23 | DexterTheDragon | no xtrementl is |
| 03:01.27 | beandog | rawk |
| 03:01.37 | blendmaster1024 | oops did i just change the topic? |
| 03:01.38 | fungus | yay, 3 cosmos tonight |
| 03:01.59 | beandog | did we have one? |
| 03:02.01 | DexterTheDragon | fungus: steppin it up huh |
| 03:02.04 | blendmaster1024 | i typed "oh" into the topic bar |
| 03:02.21 | fungus | might as well if xtrementl is payin |
| 03:02.28 | DexterTheDragon | heh |
| 03:02.35 | P0eticIntens1ty | xtrementl is paying? |
| 03:02.37 | P0eticIntens1ty | YES! |
| 03:02.44 | beandog | somebody steal his wallet while hes busy txting |
| 03:02.47 | fungus | heck, maybe 4 or 5, i can call a taxi |
| 03:02.55 | P0eticIntens1ty | hehe... |
| 03:03.58 | beandog | fail |
| 03:04.01 | P0eticIntens1ty | LOL |
| 03:04.04 | P0eticIntens1ty | you're gonna get creamed. |
| 03:04.24 | blendmaster1024 | at what? |
| 03:04.33 | fungus | ooh, are they"fun" brownies? |
| 03:04.39 | P0eticIntens1ty | eating brownies |
| 03:05.23 | blendmaster1024 | i msgd u DexterTheDragon |
| 03:06.16 | blendmaster1024 | pay a tension! |
| 03:07.22 | blendmaster1024 | can i come for gppf? |
| 03:07.33 | beandog | yah |
| 03:07.38 | beandog | were going to applebees for the next 3 hours |
| 03:07.46 | DexterTheDragon | only 3? |
| 03:07.49 | blendmaster1024 | lol |
| 03:07.53 | P0eticIntens1ty | just 3 hours? |
| 03:08.02 | beandog | o bai |
| 03:08.12 | P0eticIntens1ty | :-| |
| 03:23.02 | *** join/#uphpu mgeary (n=mgeary@69.169.142.45.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net) |
| 03:23.16 | mgeary | hey, anyone around? |
| 03:25.21 | mgeary | presumably still at the meet |
| 03:31.34 | herlo | how was the meet? |
| 03:31.46 | mgeary | heya herlo |
| 03:31.50 | mgeary | haven't heard |
| 03:31.55 | herlo | mgeary: didn't go either ey? |
| 03:32.04 | mgeary | no, my bro was in from Tokyo today |
| 03:32.12 | herlo | oh, fun |
| 03:32.15 | mgeary | so we all went to 7 peaks |
| 03:32.27 | herlo | nice |
| 03:32.30 | mgeary | i've got sunburns on the top of my feet. Don't know why i never remember that that's a vulnerable spot |
| 03:32.45 | mgeary | hey, you got any experience with sed? |
| 03:35.24 | *** join/#uphpu toph (n=dezertol@cjhansen2.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 03:36.31 | mgeary | "toph" was too revealing, eh? |
| 04:05.00 | herlo | yes, I have experience |
| 04:05.07 | herlo | sorry, mgeary I was putting a kid to bed |
| 04:05.12 | mgeary | heh. me too |
| 04:05.16 | herlo | mgeary: whatcha need? :) |
| 04:05.33 | mgeary | i have a bunch of config files that i need to do a search-and replace on |
| 04:05.44 | mgeary | so i want to do something like |
| 04:05.49 | herlo | sed -i 's/search/replace/g' |
| 04:05.53 | mgeary | find . -name config.php | xargs sed /some_predicatable_token/some_standard_token/ |
| 04:06.05 | mgeary | okay... |
| 04:06.10 | mgeary | so can i couple that with find ? |
| 04:06.12 | herlo | -i is in-place editing |
| 04:06.23 | herlo | yep, you can, but I would do it this way |
| 04:06.36 | mgeary | it seems like you can also tell it to save a backup before saving |
| 04:07.19 | herlo | find -name config.php -ok cp {} {}.orig && sed -i 's/search/replace/g' {} \; |
| 04:07.27 | herlo | probably something like that |
| 04:07.47 | herlo | when you get it right, replace -ok with -exec |
| 04:07.56 | herlo | -ok prompts you, -exec doesn't |
| 04:08.50 | mgeary | cool |
| 04:09.07 | mgeary | so && is a command delimiter? |
| 04:09.16 | mgeary | i didn't know that |
| 04:14.13 | herlo | sure |
| 04:14.29 | herlo | it means if the first succeeds do the second, much like in code |
| 04:26.08 | *** join/#uphpu mgeary (n=mgeary@69.169.142.45.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net) |
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| 08:11.54 | DexterTheDragon | mindjuju: made it home alive :) |
| 08:18.39 | herlo | DexterTheDragon: hi |
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| 15:00.24 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o fungus] by ChanServ |
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| 15:04.21 | _carmony | wow |
| 15:29.26 | *** join/#uphpu thebigdog (n=thebigdo@207.135.132.13) |
| 15:29.26 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o thebigdog] by ChanServ |
| 15:36.22 | herlo | uh huh |
| 15:36.56 | mindjuju | DextertheDragon, thx! |
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| 15:36.57 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v josephscott] by ChanServ |
| 15:37.41 | herlo | that was crazy! |
| 15:37.52 | _carmony | what was? :P |
| 15:38.43 | herlo | I know! |
| 15:38.53 | _carmony | ... |
| 15:38.57 | _carmony | ~lart herlo |
| 15:38.57 | ibot | chops herlo in half with a free AOL CD |
| 15:39.32 | herlo | _carmony: I could ask yous the same q, what was? |
| 15:39.44 | herlo | in reference to: 09:04 < _carmony> wow |
| 15:40.11 | _carmony | I've been studying how Facebook does their chat bar at the bottom of their page |
| 15:40.32 | herlo | well, that's not cool enough for a *wow* :/ |
| 15:42.29 | _carmony | their CSS is pretty crazy |
| 15:42.29 | herlo | okay, maybe it is... |
| 15:42.37 | herlo | hmm |
| 15:42.56 | _carmony | they also use a Comet techinque |
| 15:42.58 | _carmony | instead of polling |
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| 16:08.41 | beandog | mindjuju, how late were you guys there last night |
| 16:08.54 | beandog | stderr, awesome presentation, btw :) |
| 16:08.56 | beandog | ++ |
| 16:10.01 | mindjuju | 1a |
| 16:10.06 | _carmony | sheesh! |
| 16:10.30 | mindjuju | way good times |
| 16:10.39 | _carmony | Man, I need a teleporter |
| 16:10.45 | mindjuju | :) |
| 16:10.50 | _carmony | cause the 45 Min drive can be a pain :P |
| 16:10.55 | stderr | beandog: ty |
| 16:11.13 | _carmony | I agree with beandog, I learned a LOT from the presentation :) |
| 16:11.16 | _carmony | ~stderr++ |
| 16:11.27 | mindjuju | yeah stderr, twas awesome, i'm going to see if i can get it and Adams's present from last month done today |
| 16:11.40 | mindjuju | which reminds me stderr, can i get the slides you used? |
| 16:12.11 | mindjuju | Also, and I know this next question might appear as flamebait |
| 16:12.22 | mindjuju | but which one are we suppose to do, top post or bottom post |
| 16:12.26 | mindjuju | i forget |
| 16:12.53 | mindjuju | It's top isn't it? |
| 16:14.02 | _carmony | top post or bottom post? |
| 16:14.08 | DexterTheDragon | nobody seems to care |
| 16:14.20 | mindjuju | k, cause i just found out something WAY WAY cool about gmail |
| 16:14.50 | beandog | bottom post |
| 16:14.51 | unum | you're supposed to bottom post |
| 16:14.57 | mindjuju | if you are going to be replying to somebody's email, and you highlight the portion you are responding to and hit reply, it puts that portion you highlighted into the reply and sets the cursor on top |
| 16:14.58 | unum | so you can read the post in context |
| 16:15.01 | unum | you should also trim |
| 16:15.03 | mindjuju | insta-Top Post |
| 16:15.21 | unum | I wonder why they top post |
| 16:15.24 | unum | bad gmail |
| 16:15.30 | beandog | to be like LookOut |
| 16:15.34 | unum | my coworkers hate that I bottom post |
| 16:15.35 | mindjuju | unum - twas good to see you at the meeting yesterday |
| 16:15.39 | unum | mindjuju: thanks |
| 16:15.52 | unum | I think I'll try to show up for a little bit for now on |
| 16:16.11 | stderr | mindjuju: yea I'll email you the slides in Keynote and PDF format |
| 16:16.53 | mindjuju | awesome, thx! |
| 16:17.03 | beandog | stderr, one question I was gonna ask last night -- say a box does get hacked remotely, and you need to replace it. What about the boxes that are on that same subnet? Should you be worried about those? What would be the thing to do for those |
| 16:17.06 | *** topic/#UPHPU by mindjuju -> Utah PHP Users Group | uphpu.org |
| 16:17.45 | mindjuju | good question beandog! |
| 16:18.19 | *** part/#uphpu Utah_Dave (n=David@72-166-51-162.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 16:19.06 | stderr | beandog: yes, you should be worried about those boxes. You should do a full audit on the network if someone roots a particular box on the network. |
| 16:19.16 | stderr | or a device, for that matter. |
| 16:20.12 | beandog | ok |
| 16:20.17 | stderr | you have to take variables into consideration, of course. Is there trusted communication between the rooted box/device, whether services or individuals? |
| 16:20.37 | stderr | for example, if your web server is rooted, your database server is probably exploited as well. |
| 16:20.40 | beandog | thats what I was gonna say, because in some cases you may have a service / cronjob / whatever running commands to another box using ssh + pubkeys |
| 16:27.47 | *** join/#uphpu beandog (n=steve@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 16:27.47 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v beandog] by ChanServ |
| 16:27.52 | DexterTheDragon | SunSparc: LRO got images of the landers on the moon |
| 16:28.08 | beandog | well that was fun. I successfully locked myself out of all network traffic. |
| 16:28.10 | beandog | what'd I miss? |
| 16:29.00 | SunSparc | DexterTheDragon: What?! Link. |
| 16:29.08 | DexterTheDragon | http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/multimedia/lroimages/apollosites.html |
| 16:29.33 | SunSparc | Wicked sick!!! |
| 16:30.09 | *** join/#uphpu bigdog_ut (n=thebigdo@207.135.132.13) |
| 16:30.09 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o bigdog_ut] by ChanServ |
| 16:30.10 | DexterTheDragon | love that you can see the footprints |
| 16:30.15 | SunSparc | That is SOOOO freaking cool!!! |
| 16:32.45 | DexterTheDragon | and now to watch the shuttle dock |
| 16:33.02 | orsonj | well, more trails than footprints, but still cool |
| 16:33.42 | herlo | _carmony: why is the comet technique better than polling. |
| 16:34.06 | DexterTheDragon | SunSparc: this is also pretty sweet http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/catalog/70mm/mission/?11 |
| 16:34.06 | herlo | at least not *very* knowledgeable |
| 16:35.22 | SunSparc | DexterTheDragon: Oh wow. Nice resource! |
| 16:36.37 | stderr | herlo: you ever seen HAML/SASS? |
| 16:36.54 | stderr | http://sass-lang.com/ |
| 16:37.04 | _carmony | I thought landing on the moon was all fake? ;) |
| 16:37.12 | stderr | http://haml-lang.com/ |
| 16:37.19 | herlo | stderr: nope |
| 16:37.52 | beandog | http://icanhascheezburger.com/2009/07/17/funny-pictures-i-read-your-journal/ |
| 16:38.44 | _carmony | herlo: Comet is basically when you open an HTTP connection to a server and it stays live for about a minute instead of a quick open and close. And if an event is fired, that event is returned viat the HTTP connection, the browser processes the response and re-opens a connection |
| 16:38.59 | herlo | nice |
| 16:39.04 | _carmony | So responses can be super quick w/o having to up your polling rate |
| 16:39.52 | _carmony | there are some tricks and short commings w/ it you have to engineer around it looks like, but it looks like it works well for Facebook. I've never tried implementing a comet technique (yet) ;) |
| 16:41.19 | beandog | http://www.neatorama.com/2009/07/16/flip-top-zombie-shirt/ |
| 16:46.20 | orsonj | heh |
| 16:46.41 | orsonj | "...they donât make this shirt in a womenâs style." |
| 16:46.57 | _carmony | LOL, I didn't see that comment before :P |
| 17:02.23 | josephscott | _carmony: one of the techniques I heard about lately is similar. Make an XHR and let it run until it gets a response. As soon as it gets a response you processes it and then make the same XHR again immediately |
| 17:03.22 | josephscott | so there's almost always an XHR waiting for a response, to process an event |
| 17:06.29 | _carmony | XHR? |
| 17:06.42 | _carmony | oh, duh |
| 17:09.08 | _carmony | yeah, that is what comet is using XHR |
| 17:12.04 | _carmony | LOL, reading comments on icanhazcheezburger is scary.... :P |
| 17:13.31 | _carmony | "strawng blak cawfee wit tu cupza creemz innit. Nawt shur wy, but mai tym stamp iz sicks owers slow. Itz nine firty pee emm. Iz watchin deh Orifice on telemubishion." |
| 17:14.27 | josephscott | I don't think I've ever looked at the comments on that site |
| 17:22.20 | _carmony | I didn't realize they had them until now |
| 17:22.30 | _carmony | aparently they have an entire social networking site |
| 17:23.36 | josephscott | oh yeah it's a whole big thing |
| 17:24.18 | josephscott | quantcast claims them to be in the top 1100 sites on the web - http://www.quantcast.com/icanhascheezburger.com |
| 17:26.07 | _carmony | this is so distrubing... I Don't know what to say.... |
| 17:26.10 | _carmony | http://roflrazzi.com/2009/06/30/celebrity-pictures-lady-gaga-jazz-hands/ |
| 17:30.07 | SunSparc | You just wish your girlfriend had one of those. |
| 17:30.33 | Lone_Wanderer | oh man, I've only heard of Lady Gaga twice and I'm already sick of her. |
| 17:31.27 | *** join/#uphpu itimber (n=itimber@c-98-202-102-189.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 17:31.27 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v itimber] by ChanServ |
| 17:54.27 | mgeary | ~rlart |
| 17:54.27 | ibot | drops a baby grand on itimber |
| 17:54.40 | itimber | ~lart mgeary |
| 17:54.40 | ibot | gets a hotmal account and SPAMs mgeary |
| 18:02.33 | *** join/#uphpu redroy (n=redroy@66.60.105.178) |
| 18:09.58 | beandog | o awstats, how I loathe thy loadtime. |
| 18:16.59 | bigdog_ut | haha |
| 18:17.32 | thebigdog | how was the meeting last night? |
| 18:17.40 | Lone_Wanderer | epic |
| 18:19.48 | DexterTheDragon | great article about nasa's coding http://bit.ly/ShuttleCode |
| 18:19.56 | DexterTheDragon | and software development in general |
| 18:23.29 | Lone_Wanderer | cool |
| 18:26.52 | Lone_Wanderer | http://gigamonkeys.com/book/lather-rinse-repeat-a-tour-of-the-repl.html at the bottom of the text, just before the footnotes begin |
| 18:27.07 | Lone_Wanderer | someone talks about debugging the Deep Space 1 mission while it's in space |
| 18:34.22 | beandog | yay, bash |
| 18:34.24 | beandog | http://pastebin.com/d1d64e5c0 |
| 18:43.11 | Lone_Wanderer | holy cow, these programmers at nasa are crazy |
| 18:43.30 | Lone_Wanderer | I used to think that "software engineers" didn't exist, but I think I might have been wrong |
| 19:01.39 | beandog | when are we doing a geek lunch again |
| 19:02.42 | Lone_Wanderer | Today. Your place. You're buying. |
| 19:04.04 | beandog | Rawk. |
| 19:04.06 | beandog | Let's go. I'm hungry |
| 19:05.10 | Lone_Wanderer | also I'm having strange mental blocks. the code I'm writing is super, super simple |
| 19:05.20 | Lone_Wanderer | but for some reason writing it is not proving easy |
| 19:05.35 | beandog | see, you need lunch |
| 19:06.51 | Lone_Wanderer | Yeah, I do. |
| 19:07.02 | Lone_Wanderer | I also need to play some AoM. |
| 19:07.12 | Lone_Wanderer | and maybe a caffeine IV |
| 19:16.59 | DexterTheDragon | mmmmmmmmmmm leftover applebees |
| 19:17.41 | SunSparc | Mmmmmmm leftover Beto's |
| 19:18.09 | beandog | SunSparc, where was you lsat night |
| 19:18.30 | SunSparc | Ward Youth activity |
| 19:18.46 | SunSparc | Thursday night is Mutual night. |
| 19:18.49 | *** join/#uphpu redroy (n=redroy@66.60.105.178) |
| 19:18.49 | SunSparc | :( |
| 19:18.57 | beandog | you should have brought them with you |
| 19:19.00 | DexterTheDragon | you should lobby to get that changed |
| 19:19.13 | SunSparc | heh |
| 19:19.20 | DexterTheDragon | they could have learned a valuable lesson in server security |
| 19:19.20 | SunSparc | It changes every year. |
| 19:19.32 | SunSparc | That they could have. |
| 19:19.48 | SunSparc | I am sure they would all have been overly impressed. |
| 19:19.49 | SunSparc | :) |
| 19:20.28 | SunSparc | Next year it should be Tuesday or Wednesday night. |
| 19:20.43 | beandog | stderr did an awesome job. I've never heard tcpdump and snort described in a way that I could actually understand what they were for. |
| 19:21.30 | SunSparc | Did we get it recorded? |
| 19:21.44 | beandog | pretty sure. poke mindjuju |
| 19:21.54 | SunSparc | ~poke mindjuju |
| 19:21.54 | ibot | ACTION cuts down a small tree, sneaks up behind mindjuju, pokes mindjuju repeatedly, hilarity ensues. |
| 19:21.56 | beandog | mindjuju, btw, you need a new cell phone camera |
| 19:21.56 | DexterTheDragon | ~apb mindjuju |
| 19:21.57 | ibot | ACTION summons Leland to rough up mindjuju |
| 19:22.04 | beandog | ~fernpee mindjuju |
| 19:22.30 | beandog | ~tunafart mindjuju |
| 19:22.31 | ibot | ACTION eats a week-old tuna sandwich with relish and walks over to mindjuju, leg raised, to let 'em rip. |
| 19:22.32 | SunSparc | ibot, change fernpee to an action |
| 19:22.56 | beandog | ~fern mindjuju |
| 19:23.02 | beandog | agh, whats the command? |
| 19:23.13 | SunSparc | ~fernpee |
| 19:23.13 | ibot | ACTION whistles for BigDrink, the 180-lb Labrador Retriever with the 40-gallon bladder, to relieve himself on that fern over there in the corner... |
| 19:23.18 | beandog | doh. |
| 19:23.25 | beandog | BigDrink |
| 19:23.27 | beandog | that cracks me up each time. |
| 19:23.29 | beandog | :) |
| 19:24.24 | SunSparc | :) |
| 19:44.40 | beandog | lol |
| 19:44.43 | beandog | BCOTD |
| 19:44.46 | beandog | People do strange things in ads...like eat at Arby's. |
| 19:44.52 | beandog | http://consumerist.com/5317132/survey-says-you-love-ads-and-think-they-help-you |
| 19:50.31 | wps | t-mobile is such a load of crap |
| 19:50.40 | itimber | why's that wps? |
| 19:50.54 | wps | I can't believe they charge for mobile-to-mobile and to access your voice mail |
| 19:51.03 | wps | why do people pay for that when there are carriers that don't? |
| 19:51.03 | beandog | That is lame. |
| 19:51.18 | beandog | I'm on Verizon now. The coverage is wayyyyyyyyyy better |
| 19:51.22 | unum | t-mobile also doesn't offer staulker blocker |
| 19:51.45 | unum | I didn't know they didn't offer mobile to mobile |
| 19:51.55 | wps | my wife's bill is over by $50 bucks again this month |
| 19:51.57 | wps | arrrrrrg |
| 19:52.10 | wps | we are moving to AT&T the second her contract is up in September |
| 19:52.35 | unum | AT&T and verizon are the only carriers I would go with |
| 19:52.50 | wps | does verizon charge for accessing voice mail? |
| 19:53.49 | unum | not that I've noticed |
| 19:53.55 | _carmony | why is her bill over $50? |
| 19:53.57 | unum | but i stopped looking at my bill a long time ago.... |
| 19:54.08 | beandog | nobody ever calls me. |
| 19:54.13 | wps | she is on a 300 minute plan and she used 413 minutes |
| 19:54.26 | unum | actually I think they did charge me know I think about it |
| 19:55.18 | wps | I was going to up her to a 600 minute plan, but none of those are available without extending the contract, so I added mobile-to-mobile for $7/month |
| 19:55.25 | wps | that'll limp us along until the contract is up |
| 19:55.25 | unum | yep they do charge you for those |
| 19:55.27 | beandog | what? |
| 19:55.34 | beandog | you cant change your plan w/o changing the contract??? |
| 19:55.46 | wps | they have a few that you can, beandog |
| 19:55.50 | wps | but none that worked well for us |
| 19:55.53 | beandog | oh okay |
| 19:55.56 | beandog | still, that is whacked. |
| 19:56.04 | wps | tell me about it |
| 19:57.41 | *** join/#uphpu mgeary_ (n=mgeary@166.70.44.49) |
| 19:58.23 | wps | compare this: |
| 19:59.17 | mgeary_ | hey, what's a good, easy to configure FTP server for CentOS? |
| 19:59.27 | jsmith | vsftpd |
| 19:59.49 | mgeary_ | can it do virtual users? |
| 20:00.02 | mgeary_ | as opposed to full-fledged unix users |
| 20:00.07 | wps | never mind |
| 20:00.20 | wps | I'm don't gripping for today |
| 20:00.45 | wps | I need to throttle myself of I'll start calling everyone idiots again |
| 20:00.49 | jsmith | mgeary: http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=vsftpd+virtual+users |
| 20:00.50 | wps | s/of/or/ |
| 20:01.02 | mgeary_ | ~whaleslap jsmith |
| 20:01.03 | ibot | ACTION beats jsmith upside and over the head with a freakishly huge killer whale named Hugh |
| 20:01.11 | wps | how was josh's presentation last night? |
| 20:01.19 | wps | I so wish I could have come |
| 20:01.20 | beandog | it was rawking. |
| 20:01.23 | wps | I was changing diapers |
| 20:02.18 | wps | do we have any CFP holders in here? |
| 20:03.16 | jsmith | wps: Certified Financial Planners? Call For Papers? |
| 20:03.46 | wps | no |
| 20:05.07 | _psychic_ | Cold Fusion programmers ? |
| 20:05.13 | wps | concealed firearm permit |
| 20:05.28 | jsmith | wps: Oh, *that* CFP |
| 20:05.53 | wps | what are the laws like there in Maryland? |
| 20:06.10 | beandog | jsmith, that'd be cool |
| 20:06.19 | wps | I completed the course saturday and submitted my application Monday |
| 20:06.27 | wps | just waiting the three+ months now for processing |
| 20:06.56 | jsmith | wps: Haven't checked it out... it's supposedly pretty easy here, but expensive |
| 20:07.13 | jsmith | wps: A friend here told me that I should go for the Utah CFP though, as it's valid in something like 48 states |
| 20:07.21 | wps | 32 |
| 20:07.29 | wps | but yes, the Utah CFP is recognized all over |
| 20:07.32 | wps | good one to get |
| 20:07.45 | wps | â¦mostly since it requires an FBI background check |
| 20:10.47 | itimber | my neighbor setup a training, but I was out of town when he did it |
| 20:11.24 | itimber | and then a buddy got one independently |
| 20:11.33 | itimber | I really want to get it |
| 20:12.07 | wps | I more scared of people like this than I am Bin Laden |
| 20:12.08 | wps | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI |
| 20:12.44 | beandog | I'm more scared of McD's than Bin Laden |
| 20:12.50 | wps | true |
| 20:12.53 | wps | good point |
| 20:13.14 | wps | it's people like that that are ruining this country |
| 20:13.21 | beandog | wps, you gotta love how local news find these psycho people to put on the news |
| 20:13.43 | wps | true, but there are a lot of people like that |
| 20:13.49 | macnewbold | ~yow |
| 20:14.15 | wps | that are either completely ignorant of what's going on or truly do want the government to do everything for them |
| 20:14.37 | wps | I wish we could divide the country in half |
| 20:15.23 | josephscott | the people who think they are too good for the rest on one half, and the people who need help on the other? |
| 20:15.34 | wps | put all the people that want the government to do everything for them on one half and the others on the other |
| 20:15.38 | stderr | wps: I have mine |
| 20:16.32 | wps | you think I think that I'm better than that lady, joseph? |
| 20:17.13 | josephscott | from what I've read so far that would be my guess |
| 20:17.52 | wps | hmm |
| 20:18.31 | josephscott | #uphpu has generated a fair bit of hateful/negative/don't ever help anyone else attitude |
| 20:18.40 | josephscott | and it seems to have elevated in the last week or so |
| 20:18.59 | beandog | I havent noticed that |
| 20:19.12 | beandog | now bring me my lunch. |
| 20:19.25 | josephscott | you didn't say the magic work (sudo) :-) |
| 20:19.29 | josephscott | s/work/word |
| 20:19.34 | beandog | sudo is for ubuntu noobs |
| 20:20.05 | wps | what part of my comments are perceived as not wanting to help people? |
| 20:20.27 | beandog | orsonj, lols |
| 20:20.40 | beandog | that's a no-win situation |
| 20:20.57 | stderr | "people like that are ruining the country" lulz |
| 20:21.23 | wps | I completely stand behind that statement |
| 20:21.35 | josephscott | "#uphpu has generated a fair bit of hateful/negative/don't ever help anyone else attitude" note #uphpu refers to the whole channel |
| 20:21.59 | stderr | thanks for speaking up when some annoying black woman mentions a ridiculous claim about Obama |
| 20:22.43 | stderr | instead of the past 8 years when our ground military infrastructure has been completely demolished due to a terrible strategy, our constitution and privacy rights have been gutted, etc |
| 20:23.10 | stderr | I completely agree the woman is asinine. But I don't believe that people who intelligently support government-run assistance for the poor want the "government to take care of anything lulz" |
| 20:23.11 | josephscott | stderr: what claim did see make in that video? about not having to worry about her mortgage and being able to buy gas? |
| 20:23.47 | stderr | josephscott: if she's worrying about gas she probably shouldn't have a mortgage. |
| 20:23.50 | josephscott | I don't think I'm likely to agree with her either, but hard to get much info out of that tiny clip |
| 20:24.03 | wps | of course, josephscott |
| 20:24.06 | josephscott | stderr: oh so true |
| 20:24.10 | stderr | that's not really her fault, US society pushes ownership, especially home ownership |
| 20:24.46 | stderr | She certainly isn't in "one of the people ruining this country" though. |
| 20:24.52 | _carmony | yeah, but its scary removing fiscal responsibilty from the individual |
| 20:25.04 | josephscott | it's not clear if see feels more at ease because see thinks the government will pay for it, or because she didn't agree with the policies of the last 8 years |
| 20:25.06 | wps | I'm using that clip as an example of people that want socialismâ¦Â even though they don't know that that is what they want |
| 20:25.22 | stderr | wps: what's so bad about socialism? |
| 20:25.30 | wps | it's up to you |
| 20:25.32 | stderr | you know I'm benefitting from socialism myself |
| 20:25.38 | wps | if you want it, fine |
| 20:25.38 | stderr | (VETERAN BENEFITS) |
| 20:25.39 | wps | I don't |
| 20:26.13 | _carmony | No, I don't think paying Venterans for putthing their lives on the line for our country as socialism |
| 20:26.14 | stderr | the US has implemented socialist policies for a long, long time. Some are smart, some are stupid. Lumping it up because the word scares you is ridiculous. |
| 20:26.30 | wps | I'm not scared of the word |
| 20:26.35 | josephscott | Milwaukee had 3 social mayors http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee,_Wisconsin#Socialism - I learned that from watching Wayne's World |
| 20:26.37 | stderr | Sure it does. |
| 20:26.49 | itimber | I'm out... later guys |
| 20:26.53 | _carmony | cya itimber |
| 20:27.13 | josephscott | s/social/socialist/ |
| 20:27.48 | stderr | I think there are a lot of stupid / unworkable socialist ideas. I don't completely deny anything because someone classifies it as socialism, however. |
| 20:28.07 | beandog | separation of state and church is so old school |
| 20:28.08 | wps | me either, stderr |
| 20:28.16 | josephscott | I'm not really a fan of throwing around high level very politically charged words/terms. They are generally too broad to provide a useful discussion of an issue |
| 20:28.23 | wps | but I have to use a word to represent common ideas |
| 20:28.26 | unum | josephscott: true |
| 20:28.35 | wps | if you approached the lady in that clip and said "how would you like to have the assurance that you will always have healthcare and you won't have to pay for it because it will be taken care of with the other services the government provides?," she would say sure! |
| 20:28.49 | stderr | oh, healthcare? |
| 20:28.55 | stderr | really want to have that discussion? |
| 20:28.59 | stderr | Do you want to leave healthcare the way it is? |
| 20:29.00 | josephscott | wps: you would probably be stating a lie |
| 20:29.09 | stderr | 60% of bankruptcies last year were caused because of health bills |
| 20:29.14 | wps | but does she understand that her taxes will go up to pay for it, her option to make a choice will be eliminated, and she will have wait in a waiting room for two days to have a mole checked? |
| 20:29.17 | stderr | do you think you should be bankrupted because your child or wife gets sick? |
| 20:29.40 | wps | healthcare needs to be fixed, but socializing it is not the answer |
| 20:29.56 | stderr | why not? |
| 20:29.57 | josephscott | again, I think more specific issues/terms are helpful here |
| 20:29.59 | stderr | what are the repercussions? |
| 20:29.59 | wps | a government run program will destroy our healthcare system |
| 20:30.05 | stderr | How? |
| 20:30.14 | wps | obama is a lying sack of crap |
| 20:30.15 | stderr | like the French healthcare system? |
| 20:30.19 | wps | yup |
| 20:30.21 | wps | can canada |
| 20:30.22 | unum | one of our founding fathers argued for goverment subsidies to run private companies -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Report_on_Manufactures |
| 20:30.32 | wps | where they wait and wait and wait for health care |
| 20:30.32 | unum | he also argued for goverment run banking |
| 20:30.36 | stderr | the French healthcare system is the best healthcare system in the world. France produces the best doctors, bar none. |
| 20:30.42 | stderr | Costa Rica is number 2. |
| 20:30.44 | stderr | No, seriously. |
| 20:30.48 | wps | where they come to america for treatment because they can't get it in their own country |
| 20:30.48 | beandog | really? wow. |
| 20:30.52 | unum | not that any of you had appealed to the founders yet, but I just wanted to kill it first |
| 20:30.54 | *** join/#uphpu blendmaster1024 (n=olpc@75-169-200-98.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 20:30.56 | wps | no competition means crappy service |
| 20:30.59 | stderr | uh oh wps has been listening to Glenn Beck |
| 20:31.05 | stderr | let's see some data here wps. |
| 20:31.14 | stderr | I think you have confused who the lying sack of crap is. |
| 20:31.17 | unum | there are americans that go to Canada |
| 20:31.35 | wps | Obama has said repeatedly that you will be able to keep your private insurance even if a government program were to go into place |
| 20:31.36 | unum | which will only happen if this bill passes |
| 20:31.39 | blendmaster1024 | who gave the presentation last night? i had thought it was JoshH, or was it you stderr? |
| 20:31.46 | unum | stderr |
| 20:31.47 | stderr | blendmaster1024: It was me. |
| 20:31.53 | wps | on page 16 of the proposed play by the dems, it says that you won't |
| 20:32.16 | wps | sure, you'll be able to keep your own at first, but if you ever need to change, for any reason, the only option will be the government plan |
| 20:32.33 | _carmony | I haven't studied french healthcare system, but I know for a fact that the exact same disease my mother had, and a friend in canada had, had two COMPLETELY differnet outcomes. |
| 20:32.36 | blendmaster1024 | ok, that's what i thought, except that i remember someone saying that it would be JoshH. |
| 20:32.39 | josephscott | I'm not sure how that is too different from the current situation, which is pretty bad |
| 20:33.04 | stderr | wps: No, the point you're trying to make is that if businesses that supply your private healthcare option decide to go with the government-run system, you're obviously out of luck. |
| 20:33.17 | beandog | You know what sucks about my IHC policy? |
| 20:33.20 | _carmony | My mom, after first going to the doctors, had a "probable diagonisement" after 1 month, and in 5 months with extensive testing it was confirmed. My friend in canada, took then TEN years to diagonse her. |
| 20:33.20 | stderr | and are going to get pushed into the public system because of the BUSINESS. |
| 20:33.23 | beandog | I asked them once, they said I can change it ONCE. |
| 20:33.26 | beandog | and that's it. |
| 20:33.28 | beandog | Oh, whee. |
| 20:33.31 | beandog | free market ftw. :) |
| 20:33.36 | wps | even if I were self employed, the only option will be the government plan |
| 20:33.58 | josephscott | that's mostly due to the insurance companies though |
| 20:34.05 | unum | wow talk about out of context |
| 20:34.13 | beandog | whut? |
| 20:34.14 | unum | "Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day" |
| 20:34.15 | josephscott | there was a frontline episode on health insurance the US recently I think |
| 20:34.19 | beandog | If you were self-employed, you couldnt get your own insurance? |
| 20:34.41 | unum | so provided in the rest of the paragraph are the rules regulating private health insuarance |
| 20:35.03 | unum | but those are of course left out so that it seems private insuarance is being banned |
| 20:35.10 | unum | beandog: I could not |
| 20:35.28 | unum | well I can only get group rate insuarance |
| 20:35.33 | wps | even if it wasn't banned though, the existance of a government plan would destroy private insurance |
| 20:35.35 | _carmony | I'm on a personal healthcare policy, and my wife is on the Goverment sponsored healthcare (costs 3 times as much) which they contract out through SelectMed |
| 20:35.51 | unum | wps: only if the private insurance companies can't compete |
| 20:35.54 | wps | there is no way they would be able to compete with a c |
| 20:36.03 | wps | "company" that can print it's own money |
| 20:36.21 | unum | _carmony: I need to look into that plan. that's my only option I think(and as you pointed out it's government) |
| 20:36.32 | _carmony | Utah HEalth Insurance Pool |
| 20:36.34 | _carmony | state sponsored |
| 20:36.37 | unum | wps: the treasury is not the insurance program |
| 20:36.48 | stderr | wps: Oh really? France has a great private insurance economy. |
| 20:36.54 | unum | thanks I always forget what it's called |
| 20:36.56 | _carmony | basically they get a large group of people who can't qualify for individual insurance |
| 20:37.18 | wps | that's now what I hearâ¦Â the French say that it's great because they are so patriotic, but I read story and story about how crappy it is |
| 20:37.21 | _carmony | and have HMOs bid to cover them for 3 years I think |
| 20:37.33 | wps | my current private insurance is _way_ better than what they get |
| 20:37.36 | _carmony | so every 3 years the HMOs re-big |
| 20:37.39 | _carmony | bid* |
| 20:37.39 | stderr | wps: French doctors are the best in the world, their medical system is amazing. |
| 20:37.44 | unum | wps: links? |
| 20:37.49 | wps | yeahâ¦Â but good luck getting into one |
| 20:37.57 | wps | I am not prepared with a list of links for this discussion |
| 20:37.58 | unum | wps: links? |
| 20:38.18 | unum | I can get you a link to a letter to the editor in the sltrib |
| 20:38.21 | stderr | well I was treated at a hospital in France and got immediate help as a tourist so... |
| 20:38.25 | wps | alright |
| 20:38.29 | wps | I'd love to read it |
| 20:38.31 | unum | that talks about an american tourist in france |
| 20:38.36 | stderr | same in Germany, but I'm unfamiliar with their healthcare system (besides having been in it >_<) |
| 20:38.46 | wps | I'm not interested in the people that live there than tourists though |
| 20:38.49 | josephscott | this is the one I was thinking of - http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundamerica/view/ |
| 20:39.22 | *** join/#uphpu jsmith (n=jsmith@asterisk/training-and-documentation-guru/jsmith) |
| 20:39.23 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v jsmith] by ChanServ |
| 20:39.51 | josephscott | if the head of a major health insurance company can't get private health care insurance in today's market how is that a good thing? |
| 20:40.11 | wps | what are you referring to, josephscott? |
| 20:40.23 | wps | why would the head of a health insurance company be able to be insured by his own company? |
| 20:40.25 | josephscott | http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundamerica/view/ |
| 20:40.30 | unum | http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_12845013 |
| 20:40.42 | jsmith | Is health insurance a right? |
| 20:40.49 | wps | heavens no |
| 20:40.53 | Lone_Wanderer | Why not, wps? |
| 20:40.58 | wps | why would it be a right? |
| 20:41.02 | Lone_Wanderer | Getting mail delivered to you is a right. |
| 20:41.05 | unum | because it's part of living |
| 20:41.15 | josephscott | wps: because he had a heart attack, if he wasn't employed there his own health insurance company would refuse him |
| 20:41.17 | unum | you can't live if you get sick and die |
| 20:41.22 | Lone_Wanderer | Having power and water delivered to you (in an incorporated township) is a right. |
| 20:41.26 | jsmith | Lone_Wanderer: It's *not* a right. Show me where it's set as a right in US law |
| 20:41.50 | wps | you don't receive mail unless someone sends it to you |
| 20:42.13 | Lone_Wanderer | No, it's not a legal right, but I'm saying that if US law acknowledges that receiving mail, power and water are legal rights, shouldn't health care also be a right? |
| 20:42.27 | Lone_Wanderer | Okay, but receiving postal service (even if you don't get any mail) is a right. |
| 20:42.38 | unum | you can send mail |
| 20:42.41 | stderr | health care is a right. |
| 20:42.43 | stderr | of course it is. |
| 20:42.45 | wps | that only allows you to have it |
| 20:42.47 | stderr | read the constitution |
| 20:42.47 | wps | you still have to pay for it |
| 20:42.52 | stderr | "promote the General Welfare" |
| 20:43.08 | wps | I don't get electricity unless I pay for it |
| 20:43.12 | Lone_Wanderer | You also have to pay a copay when you visit the doctor. |
| 20:43.14 | _carmony | Well, we need to develope a system that can be self-sustaining |
| 20:43.35 | Lone_Wanderer | No but if you build a house, the city is required to connect you to their power grid. |
| 20:43.38 | blendmaster1024 | 'General's Welfare' is what it darn turned into |
| 20:43.53 | wps | that still doesn't guarantee me power |
| 20:44.00 | beandog | power is cheap |
| 20:44.05 | stderr | you can also live without power |
| 20:44.07 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, health insurance doesn't guarantee you health either. |
| 20:44.20 | unum | actually the government will pay for your power |
| 20:44.23 | unum | if you can't afford it |
| 20:44.29 | unum | they will also pay for your heating |
| 20:44.36 | stderr | if someone is dying and does not have the resources to buy general healthcare, Americans have a responsibility to take care of that individual. |
| 20:44.39 | unum | because not having them can by life threatening |
| 20:44.45 | unum | shoot they'll even pay for your phone |
| 20:44.48 | wps | why, stderr? |
| 20:44.51 | Lone_Wanderer | FWIW I think that govt. sponsored health care should only be available to people who do a reasonably good job of taking care of themselves. |
| 20:45.14 | beandog | sounds like aristocracy to me |
| 20:45.14 | stderr | wps: simply put: because we're Americans. |
| 20:45.23 | stderr | I didn't put bullets in heads to defend a bunch of selfish bastards. |
| 20:45.29 | wps | and before josephscott says that I am a pig, I think we should help them |
| 20:45.40 | wps | but it shouldn't be a government, mandated program |
| 20:46.03 | stderr | well, you guys lost that argument in the 08 election. |
| 20:46.12 | stderr | so sit back and enjoy the show |
| 20:46.28 | wps | well, there's not going to be much left of this country by the time the next election comes around |
| 20:46.39 | josephscott | I haven't really figured out what I think the best approach is |
| 20:46.50 | _carmony | lol, well it is interesting they are rushing bills through as fast as possible before 2010 and 2012 elections |
| 20:46.51 | Lone_Wanderer | but that doesn't mean I don't think health care should be a basic human right |
| 20:46.53 | wps | with the banks, the auto industry, health care, and cap and tradeâ¦Â we're screwed |
| 20:47.03 | stderr | wps: we're close, it's true. Anything pops off and we will HAVE to have a draft. |
| 20:47.18 | wps | cap and trade will destroy this country |
| 20:47.19 | Lone_Wanderer | Wouldn't that be ironic. Democrats instituting a draft. |
| 20:47.29 | unum | I wouldn't have health care if it wasn't for goverment involvement |
| 20:47.33 | Lone_Wanderer | btw stderr, a couple years back I read something that said that the draft was good for the military |
| 20:47.37 | stderr | well they'll have to because Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld destroyed the ground troops. |
| 20:47.43 | Lone_Wanderer | what it actually said was that the draft was bad for the military, but good for the country |
| 20:47.49 | stderr | Lone_Wanderer: it would've been good for the military. We should've had on when we went into Iraq |
| 20:48.04 | stderr | if the surge hadn't worked in 07, we would've HAD to have had a draft. It's falling apart because they overextended completely. |
| 20:48.16 | Lone_Wanderer | because it takes people from all different social strata and mixes them together, then they get out and go back to where they were and bring some understanding with them |
| 20:48.31 | Lone_Wanderer | stderr: When we had the conversation last time, you said it would have been horrible for the military ;) |
| 20:48.52 | Lone_Wanderer | But that was well before the surge. |
| 20:48.56 | stderr | that's because I didn't realize the extent of what Rumsfeld did to the military |
| 20:49.08 | stderr | we have almost no deployable brigades left |
| 20:49.15 | stderr | it's ridiculous. |
| 20:49.39 | Lone_Wanderer | I wonder how basic would change if we got the draft back. |
| 20:49.43 | Lone_Wanderer | It was pretty easy when I went through it. |
| 20:49.55 | stderr | just cross your fingers. Bush decided to put a Shia in power in Baghdad so that pretty much ties off the Shiite belt in the middle east :\ |
| 20:50.08 | stderr | then we got Pakistan |
| 20:50.16 | stderr | seriously, I hope we get a draft |
| 20:51.09 | Lone_Wanderer | Why? That'd mean we'd be going to war someplace else. |
| 20:51.42 | stderr | yea but my year-long grin at the neoconservatives getting drafted would be quite comfortable to wear |
| 20:51.47 | Lone_Wanderer | Also, serious point of contention with the draft - why don't women have to register? |
| 20:51.58 | unum | ha ha I was born a cripple they can't draft me. |
| 20:52.04 | stderr | yea the military needs a fulltime KP force |
| 20:52.26 | Lone_Wanderer | You can sit in a warehouse and solder AH-64 parts back together as well as anyone, unum. |
| 20:52.45 | stderr | anyway the draft is structured around combat arms and infantry units as the default so it's hard with the current setup |
| 20:52.45 | Lone_Wanderer | wait, you do have hands right? |
| 20:52.45 | wps | do you know anything about Australia's health care system? |
| 20:52.55 | wps | my wife says that it's government run but that it works really, really well |
| 20:53.03 | wps | I haven't heard anything about it though |
| 20:53.13 | Lone_Wanderer | I have some australian friends |
| 20:53.20 | Lone_Wanderer | I shall ask them. They usually don't get online until later though. |
| 20:53.25 | stderr | Aussie healthcare is an Aborigine doing a feel-well dance near your bed |
| 20:53.29 | unum | http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-july-15-2009/kathleen-sebelius-pt--1 <- at four minutes in |
| 20:53.33 | stderr | I kid, I have no idea about the Aussie healthcare system |
| 20:53.33 | josephscott | I've got a couple of co-workers who live in Australia |
| 20:53.54 | unum | Lone_Wanderer: you have to be able to run a mile to join the military |
| 20:53.59 | Lone_Wanderer | You've got co-workers all over don't you? |
| 20:54.05 | josephscott | I lived there for 2 years, but didn't visit any doctors |
| 20:54.11 | stderr | unum: My girlfriend could outrun you, guaranteed. |
| 20:54.13 | unum | even the airforce requires the run now |
| 20:54.14 | Lone_Wanderer | unum: If they were desperate enough, they'd give you a waiver. |
| 20:54.19 | unum | stderr: anyone can outrun me |
| 20:54.26 | stderr | and the Army requires 2 miles |
| 20:54.35 | unum | my knees don't work right |
| 20:54.47 | unum | one time I was trying to run and I fell over and dislocated my elbow |
| 20:54.56 | unum | I've tried to avoid it every since |
| 20:54.57 | Lone_Wanderer | ouch |
| 20:55.01 | Lone_Wanderer | I don't blame you |
| 20:55.02 | stderr | (you just need to be able to complete a mile to get into BASIC as far as I remember) |
| 20:55.13 | stderr | (but to graduate BASIC you have to pass the PT test) |
| 20:55.24 | Lone_Wanderer | probably what would happen, if things got bad enough |
| 20:55.28 | unum | I can walk a mile. I can walk a mile pretty fast. |
| 20:55.28 | Lone_Wanderer | I mean really, really bad |
| 20:55.29 | stderr | Lone_Wanderer: what's 18-25 PT standards 47 pushups, 49 situps, 15 min 2 mile? |
| 20:55.33 | stderr | dunno, I always maxed mine. |
| 20:55.36 | wps | so the "journalist" here is a dork, but are the experiences of his friends in canada not true? |
| 20:55.37 | wps | http://www.pjtv.com/video/Louder_With_Crowder/__PJTV_Undercover%3A_Steven_Crowder_Investigates_Why_CanadaCare_SucksWill_ObamaCare_Be_Any_Better%3F/2153/;jsessionid=abcyqo4e5vSZn76mHFkks |
| 20:55.46 | unum | ya a 15 minute two mile isn't going to happen |
| 20:55.47 | Lone_Wanderer | they'd "draft" you into some sort of civilian contractor corps |
| 20:56.07 | unum | that they could do to me |
| 20:56.09 | Lone_Wanderer | that's running. if you have bad knees you can get what's called a permanent profile and you walk instead, with a different time limit. |
| 20:56.15 | unum | but I wouldn't be in combat |
| 20:56.18 | wps | if I have wrong information, I'd love to be enlightened |
| 20:56.19 | Lone_Wanderer | Of course not. |
| 20:56.20 | stderr | wps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems_compared |
| 20:56.32 | wps | thanks, stderr |
| 20:56.36 | wps | that looks like a good read |
| 20:56.42 | Lone_Wanderer | wps: I have heard similar things about Canadian health care, from Canadians. |
| 20:56.57 | unum | neither's perfect, I'm simply advocating the one that would allow me to be self employed |
| 20:56.58 | Lone_Wanderer | I have family up there. If they need something taken care of they'll schedule an ambulance call. |
| 20:57.02 | unum | you can call me selfish for that |
| 20:57.13 | wps | so why would you want to implement that here in the US? |
| 20:57.17 | Lone_Wanderer | "I have to have this whatever looked at, I'm going to call 911 next Wednesday so I can get seen." |
| 20:57.18 | josephscott | if you here someone say "it's free for everyone" then that person hasn't done their research |
| 20:57.25 | unum | so I could get health care |
| 20:57.32 | stderr | I come from a family of doctors, I have no personal investment in any sort of public healthcare system |
| 20:57.43 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, I don't think anyone here is saying we should do the same thing as Canada. |
| 20:57.55 | stderr | I just think it's the right thing to do, and it is workable. |
| 20:58.03 | wps | and what if I don't want healthcare, why should I be forced to pay (through taxes)? |
| 20:58.24 | Lone_Wanderer | Because supporting your fellow citizens is the Right Thing to Do. |
| 20:58.39 | wps | shouldn't I be able to choose how I support them? |
| 20:58.46 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, you, maybe. |
| 20:59.10 | Lone_Wanderer | But do you really want to let every redneck hick in the country decide what he thinks is best for people he's never met? |
| 20:59.14 | josephscott | strange, my doctor's office isn't open on Sundays either |
| 20:59.31 | josephscott | so that would put my on par with Canada according the video so far |
| 20:59.38 | Lone_Wanderer | Of course the alternative is "do you really want to let a small group of privileged folks in Washington decide what's best for people they've never met" |
| 21:00.00 | stderr | at least some of em can pronounce "nuclear" |
| 21:00.14 | josephscott | hmmm, had to wait a long time at the ER, check, I've had to do that here to |
| 21:00.15 | josephscott | too |
| 21:00.20 | Lone_Wanderer | But still, there's got to be some option that's better than what we've got now |
| 21:00.28 | Lone_Wanderer | josephscott: How long? |
| 21:00.33 | Lone_Wanderer | "A long time" is relative. |
| 21:00.45 | wps | I've never waited in an ER for more than an hour |
| 21:00.45 | josephscott | the video quotes 2 to 10 hours |
| 21:00.49 | Lone_Wanderer | Did you have to wait six months? If no, you're better off than Canadians. |
| 21:00.55 | Lone_Wanderer | oh wait, ER? never mind |
| 21:01.06 | josephscott | my last trip to the ER for my daughter was over 2 hours |
| 21:01.18 | Lone_Wanderer | in Canada, the only reliable way to get health care is to go to the ER, even if it's not an emergency |
| 21:01.32 | Lone_Wanderer | it's that or try to get an apointment, which can take 6 months or longer |
| 21:01.34 | josephscott | Lone_Wanderer: wps pointed out this video - http://www.pjtv.com/video/Louder_With_Crowder/__PJTV_Undercover%3A_Steven_Crowder_Investigates_Why_CanadaCare_SucksWill_ObamaCare_Be_Any_Better%3F/2153/;jsessionid=abcyqo4e5vSZn76mHFkks |
| 21:01.42 | Lone_Wanderer | so a lot of people hit the ER for stuff that's not an emergency |
| 21:01.44 | unum | I know someone who frequented the ER because of his job and he said he spent hours waiting |
| 21:01.50 | josephscott | Lone_Wanderer: that's also true in this country |
| 21:01.57 | unum | keep in mind we all have better health care then the rest of the country |
| 21:02.05 | Lone_Wanderer | I guarantee that however bad it is here, it's ten times worse in Canada. |
| 21:02.16 | stderr | Lone_Wanderer: I dunno, I've heard mixed stories about Canadian healthcare |
| 21:02.18 | josephscott | those without insurance here go to the ER for colds |
| 21:02.23 | wps | so here's my question |
| 21:02.38 | unum | Lone_Wanderer: people here have already decided I shouldn't get health care |
| 21:03.02 | Lone_Wanderer | Some people do. But it's *possible* to get health care in the US without resorting to retardedness. |
| 21:03.11 | Lone_Wanderer | This is not true, most of the time, in Canada. |
| 21:03.19 | stderr | http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/8un4b/will_someone_please_explain_to_me_why_canadas/ |
| 21:03.27 | stderr | lots of Canadian stories in there, and seems fairly positive. |
| 21:03.58 | Lone_Wanderer | Of course Mike Myers did his ridiculous lie-umentary about how much better Canadian health care is |
| 21:04.04 | unum | Lone_Wanderer: it is not possible for me to get health care except through government mandated programs |
| 21:04.08 | Lone_Wanderer | so that's really muddied the waters |
| 21:04.16 | Lone_Wanderer | unum: you are an exception |
| 21:04.25 | unum | Lone_Wanderer: so you think I should suffer |
| 21:04.36 | Lone_Wanderer | No, I never said that. |
| 21:04.42 | josephscott | "some", try lots. Spent some time with a friend of mine who was doing ER rounds while in school to be a PA, ERs are full of people who go their because they can't be turned away |
| 21:04.48 | unum | then we need government mandated programs |
| 21:04.59 | Lone_Wanderer | I said that under the systems currently in place, Americans on average have better access to health care than Canadians on average. |
| 21:05.12 | josephscott | s/their/there/ |
| 21:05.49 | Lone_Wanderer | unum: I agree that some sort of govt. mandated health care system is a good idea. I just don't think we should follow in Canada's footsteps. |
| 21:05.52 | unum | so you are afraid the attempts to get me better health care will make yours worse? |
| 21:06.08 | unum | I don't think they have proposed a copy of canada's system |
| 21:06.14 | Lone_Wanderer | I don't think so either! |
| 21:06.17 | josephscott | I'm not convinced of the camp for requiring government run/mandated programs, but I do believe there needs to some serious adjustments to our current situation |
| 21:06.40 | jsmith | unum: I don't think so either... the current model proposed by the White House would cost more |
| 21:06.53 | jsmith | unum: In fact, according to the GAO, it would cost more than we currently spend on health-care |
| 21:06.53 | unum | the group insuarance programs that most of us use are government mandated |
| 21:06.55 | wps | that's the think that kills me |
| 21:07.12 | josephscott | jsmith: which will be a problem, because there are health care programs that cost less that people are having a hard time paying for |
| 21:07.22 | wps | obama keeps preaching about cost and how he is going to fix the cost and yet his plan will not bring the price down a cent |
| 21:07.37 | Lone_Wanderer | define "the price"? |
| 21:07.42 | unum | jsmith: linky? |
| 21:08.59 | josephscott | does anyone know why insurance companies are required to accept all employees when the policy is through your work, but gets to pick and choose if you buy the plan yourself (outside of work)? |
| 21:09.04 | josephscott | is that required by law? |
| 21:09.39 | wps | from the director of Congressional Budget Office: |
| 21:09.45 | wps | "In the legislation that has been reported, we do not see the sort of fundamental changes that would be necessary to reduce the trajectory of federal health spending by a significant amount. And on the contrary, the legislation significantly expands the federal responsibility for health care costs." |
| 21:09.51 | Lone_Wanderer | when you get a plan through your work, they've got an agreement with your company, not you individually |
| 21:09.58 | unum | jsmith: state law |
| 21:10.04 | wps | (quote from http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul) |
| 21:10.05 | Lone_Wanderer | they also (the insurance co.) has the benefit of spreading risk across a larger group of people |
| 21:10.28 | unum | wps: that's completely different from the impression I got |
| 21:10.36 | unum | oops I meant josephscott: state law |
| 21:10.56 | Lone_Wanderer | btw, take a look at DMBA |
| 21:11.20 | unum | all that says is that the federal government will be more involved. Which I already knew |
| 21:11.30 | unum | I thought it meant as a country we would be spending more |
| 21:11.33 | josephscott | Lone_Wanderer: how is that different from spreading the risk across a larger group of individual policy holders? |
| 21:11.33 | Lone_Wanderer | it's a non-profit health insurance company that was formed to provide insurance for employees of the LDS church |
| 21:11.36 | wps | and "legislation significantly expands the federal responsibility for health care costs." |
| 21:11.42 | unum | yep |
| 21:11.44 | unum | that's true |
| 21:11.45 | Lone_Wanderer | josephscott: I dunno |
| 21:12.14 | wps | and your taxes are going to go up |
| 21:12.30 | wps | (another place where Obama will go back on his promise) |
| 21:12.33 | Lone_Wanderer | DMBA is able to keep premiums down and quality of service extremely high because they insure such a large number of people and because they're non-profit |
| 21:12.43 | josephscott | wps: I think we all know our taxes our going to go up, we haven't reduced the total federal debt in more than 50 years |
| 21:13.04 | Lone_Wanderer | Non-profit health insurance that covers everyone in the county, for example |
| 21:13.05 | unum | Lone_Wanderer: I would support that |
| 21:13.24 | josephscott | figuring that at some point we'll try to reduce that the gov't will likely need more money, i.e. taxes |
| 21:13.27 | unum | wps: my takes have already gone down |
| 21:13.29 | Lone_Wanderer | run by elected officials |
| 21:13.33 | wps | well, our taxes wouldn't need to go up like there are going to if we were adding more and more programs to the government and going into so much debt as a nation |
| 21:13.35 | Lone_Wanderer | same way power and water are run |
| 21:13.37 | jsmith | Costs according to the Congressional Budget Office: http://cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=10430 |
| 21:13.51 | unum | wps: but this is money we are already spending |
| 21:14.11 | unum | my employer give 10% of my salary to a private company to get me crappy insuarance |
| 21:14.12 | wps | the ridiculous stimulus packages were not |
| 21:14.16 | wps | bailing out the banks wasn't |
| 21:14.20 | wps | bailing out the auto industry wasn't |
| 21:14.29 | unum | the bale out was bush and mccain as much as it was obama |
| 21:14.37 | wps | yup |
| 21:14.55 | unum | the stimulus package was more bennet and hatch than obama(they voted against it, but placed ear marks) |
| 21:14.58 | wps | I'm not just a democrate-hater |
| 21:15.23 | unum | I never noticed you complaining about all of bushes spending |
| 21:15.32 | unum | but maybe I wasn't paying attention |
| 21:15.37 | unum | that's quite possible |
| 21:15.52 | wps | I hadn't |
| 21:15.56 | stderr | well wps supported the Iraq War so apparently he's down with war funding but not healthcare. |
| 21:16.08 | wps | that's correct, stderr |
| 21:16.09 | stderr | 9 billion/month |
| 21:16.20 | wps | not the iraq war, but war, yes |
| 21:16.29 | stderr | oh so you're against the iraq war now? |
| 21:16.43 | wps | I've never been for it |
| 21:16.45 | Lone_Wanderer | Pretty fair evaluation of both sides (US/Canadian) of the health care thing: http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/8un4b/will_someone_please_explain_to_me_why_canadas/c0ahkvq |
| 21:17.15 | Lone_Wanderer | wps: I'm curious what you think about the idea of municipal, non-profit health insurance services. |
| 21:17.25 | wps | I've never considered it |
| 21:17.31 | wps | I'd have to look into it |
| 21:17.34 | wps | I'd love to hear more about the idea |
| 21:17.45 | wps | sounds like a goo plan |
| 21:17.48 | wps | good |
| 21:17.50 | Lone_Wanderer | Like if there were a Utah Valley Health Insurance Company that everyone who lives here were eligible to participate in. |
| 21:18.01 | Lone_Wanderer | Can't be dropped as long as you pay your membership fee and you live here. |
| 21:18.01 | stderr | you didn't support the Iraq War wps? I must be mistaken, then. |
| 21:18.41 | Lone_Wanderer | I don't know much about it either, I just came up with the idea the other day. |
| 21:19.17 | wps | I don't understand why the US spends so much time and money fixing things around the world when we have homeless living on our streets |
| 21:19.33 | thebigdog | its all about money really |
| 21:19.40 | stderr | indeed it is. |
| 21:19.44 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, the homeless problem is intractable. |
| 21:20.05 | Lone_Wanderer | You can throw money at it all day and it won't go away. |
| 21:20.12 | wps | I'm just sayingâ¦Â we have a lot of problemsâ¦Â shouldn't we be fixing some of our own problems before worrying about the rest of the world? |
| 21:20.17 | unum | we use are foreign aide to push the countries to do what benefits are elites. |
| 21:20.32 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, to some extent, kicking ass in Iraq was also covering our own ass. |
| 21:20.32 | stderr | wps: hey, totally agreed. |
| 21:20.43 | stderr | Lone_Wanderer: how? |
| 21:20.46 | unum | http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/news/2002/07/54141 |
| 21:21.03 | Lone_Wanderer | Oil can only be bought in US dollars |
| 21:21.14 | wps | we don't need the middle east's oil |
| 21:21.20 | Lone_Wanderer | just hear me out here |
| 21:21.28 | stderr | that was a short-sighted move, our ass was uncovered in a variety of ways to push that aside. |
| 21:21.38 | Lone_Wanderer | Our nation's supply of oil isn't the issue. Everyone else's supply of oil is the issue. |
| 21:22.00 | Lone_Wanderer | If Joe Ruler in some country somewhere wants to buy oil (and everyone needs oil so of course he wants to) |
| 21:22.03 | Lone_Wanderer | he has to buy it in US dollars |
| 21:22.17 | Lone_Wanderer | which means he has to buy money from us first, then use it to buy oil |
| 21:22.32 | Lone_Wanderer | this puts us in an extremely powerful position |
| 21:22.40 | Lone_Wanderer | 'cause we can charge as much as we want for our money |
| 21:22.57 | Lone_Wanderer | which, among other things, allows us to inflate our currency as fast as we want without serious consequences |
| 21:23.31 | Lone_Wanderer | (Incidentally, inflating our currency devalues the reserves that other countries have sitting around waiting to buy oil with, thereby hurting them more than it hurts us) |
| 21:23.32 | stderr | well that was a pretty low gain on the amount of things that invading Iraq has cost us. |
| 21:23.46 | Lone_Wanderer | Iraq was set to start selling oil for Euros |
| 21:24.09 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, this isn't a position we can hold forever. It's going to come down around us eventually. |
| 21:24.33 | Lone_Wanderer | Most oil-producing nations, plus China and a few others, are working hard to move away from using US dollars as the standard world currency |
| 21:24.42 | Lone_Wanderer | but there are a lot of reasons why it's going to take them a while (I don't know them all) |
| 21:24.58 | stderr | I liked how McCain was talking about bombing Iran. The guy who graduated lowest in his class and crashed three training planes bragging about one of the worst strategic moves the US could ever adopt. |
| 21:25.09 | Lone_Wanderer | anyway, it's my belief that the war in Iraq had more to do with keeping the dollar as the standard currency for oil than anything else |
| 21:25.17 | stderr | If anyone thinks we could fight Iran successfully right now, I have some air to sell em. |
| 21:25.41 | Lone_Wanderer | oh man |
| 21:25.46 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm so glad McCain didn't get into office |
| 21:25.53 | Lone_Wanderer | we'd be getting our asses kicked in Iran as we speak |
| 21:25.56 | Lone_Wanderer | I'd probably be there now |
| 21:25.58 | stderr | one of our only hopes is Iran toppling their own regime |
| 21:25.59 | wps | I can't imagine being in the armed forces right now |
| 21:26.06 | wps | they are so tired and stretched thin |
| 21:26.51 | Lone_Wanderer | stderr: If we got green berets in there and supported the agitators, we might have a chance at success |
| 21:27.00 | stderr | Lone_Wanderer: you're high. |
| 21:27.07 | stderr | we're not talking about some 3rd world country. |
| 21:27.08 | Lone_Wanderer | you don't think it'd work? |
| 21:27.11 | stderr | (and we have SF in there) |
| 21:27.14 | stderr | no way. |
| 21:27.32 | Lone_Wanderer | I know but they're not supporting the.... whatever you call them, are they? |
| 21:27.42 | stderr | if we tried that they would eventually be captured and the Persians would ally incredibly fast. |
| 21:27.49 | _psychic_ | Naw you just gotta get your yellow ribbon on your car, and change your twitter avatar green. That's all you need to do. |
| 21:28.33 | stderr | Lone_Wanderer: they certainly don't want the current regime in power but you underestimate their hatred for the numerous times we've interfered with their country. |
| 21:28.47 | Lone_Wanderer | Either way, if there's even a hint of US meddling in Iran's affairs these days, everything will go to hell very quickly. |
| 21:28.54 | stderr | just think if France toppled our elected leaders and declared us terrorists over generations |
| 21:29.00 | stderr | a lot of people may not like Obama |
| 21:29.08 | stderr | but we sure would kill us some frogs together |
| 21:29.10 | Lone_Wanderer | yeah |
| 21:29.20 | unum | I talked to a cuban who said the same thing. |
| 21:29.31 | unum | They all wanted castro gone, but they didn't want us doing it |
| 21:29.34 | Lone_Wanderer | don't blame them |
| 21:29.37 | Lone_Wanderer | and honestly |
| 21:29.41 | Lone_Wanderer | if they don't do it theirselves |
| 21:30.32 | stderr | and Iranians are way crazier and more nationalistic than Americans. They're a tough bunch. |
| 21:30.32 | unum | of course we helped castro get there in the first place... |
| 21:30.32 | Lone_Wanderer | themselves? |
| 21:30.32 | Lone_Wanderer | if they don't do it themselves, at least primarily, it'd be kind of a hollow victoy |
| 21:30.32 | Lone_Wanderer | victory too |
| 21:30.34 | stderr | no, you're definitely right, the neoconservative concept of enforcing the American version of democracy on a society that isn't ready for it, it just doesn't work |
| 21:30.40 | stderr | especially middle eastern countries |
| 21:31.03 | stderr | yea, the only people crazy enough to want to mess with Iran are neoconservatives and Israelis |
| 21:31.22 | Lone_Wanderer | the Israelis are some tough customers though |
| 21:31.35 | stderr | best force at urban combat bar none |
| 21:31.38 | Lone_Wanderer | with several thousand years worth of reasons to want to pick a fight with them |
| 21:31.49 | stderr | well I can't stand Israel |
| 21:31.52 | Lone_Wanderer | me neitehr |
| 21:31.54 | Lone_Wanderer | neither |
| 21:32.05 | stderr | but an Israeli / Iranian war would be of epic proportions |
| 21:32.06 | Lone_Wanderer | but if I was picking sides in a fight against Iran, I'd bet on them over us |
| 21:32.37 | stderr | oh definitely, we could bomb Iran quite a bit but we have no brigades to deploy in any sort of ground or support positions |
| 21:32.38 | josephscott | stderr: you forgot to include the US in that list, since we provide a ton of money and arms to Israel |
| 21:32.44 | josephscott | and have done so for years |
| 21:32.48 | stderr | josephscott: oh, I know |
| 21:32.51 | Lone_Wanderer | even before the Iraq mess |
| 21:32.58 | stderr | it's one of the reasons why Israelis are tough hombres |
| 21:33.04 | stderr | we give them all our technology |
| 21:33.05 | stderr | and |
| 21:33.06 | josephscott | the US send more money and arms to Israel than any other country |
| 21:33.08 | stderr | (nukes) |
| 21:33.16 | stderr | they also do a lot of chemical and biological warfare research |
| 21:33.17 | Lone_Wanderer | heh if they had to provide their own hardware |
| 21:33.25 | stderr | (that we support) |
| 21:33.29 | Lone_Wanderer | they'd have been overrun a long time ago |
| 21:33.55 | stderr | Bush should've been smart enough to distance himself from Israel and take up the Shia support he got after 9/11 |
| 21:34.09 | stderr | Hezbollah as a resource against Al Qaida would've been extraordinarily useful |
| 21:34.11 | Lone_Wanderer | Shia support after 9/11? |
| 21:34.16 | stderr | yea |
| 21:34.23 | Lone_Wanderer | Huh, I didn't hear about that. |
| 21:34.33 | stderr | Iran / Hezbollah / Syria / etc, they all pledged their support to us directly after 9/11 |
| 21:34.34 | josephscott | "Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since World |
| 21:34.35 | josephscott | War II. From 1976-2004, Israel was the largest annual recipient of U.S. foreign |
| 21:34.35 | josephscott | assistance, havingrecentlybeen supplanted byIraq. Since1985, the United States has |
| 21:34.35 | josephscott | provided nearly $3 billion in grants annually to Israel." |
| 21:34.36 | Lone_Wanderer | But yeah man, any time you can get arabs on your side to fight against other arabs, that's a winning tactic. |
| 21:34.36 | stderr | quite fervently too |
| 21:34.40 | stderr | they hate them some Saudis |
| 21:34.57 | stderr | josephscott: don't even forget about AIPAC |
| 21:35.09 | stderr | blight on our government |
| 21:35.12 | josephscott | I was surprised to learn that a few years back |
| 21:35.18 | josephscott | http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:9cf-A228EOYJ:www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf+us+aid+to+israel&hl=en&gl=us |
| 21:35.22 | josephscott | it's an interesting read |
| 21:35.25 | Lone_Wanderer | So... Iran said they'd help us kill terrorists after 9/11 and we told them to go jump off a cliff? |
| 21:35.32 | stderr | Lone_Wanderer: yup |
| 21:35.35 | Lone_Wanderer | man |
| 21:35.43 | Lone_Wanderer | that's the dumbest thing ever |
| 21:35.45 | stderr | "MRAW YOU GUYZ ARE TERRORISTS MRAW" |
| 21:35.55 | stderr | "YER BROWN LIKE THE GUYZ WHO ATTACKED US MRAW" |
| 21:36.10 | Lone_Wanderer | I mean, seriously. |
| 21:36.31 | Lone_Wanderer | Their support in the middle east would have made the entire operation a cakewalk. |
| 21:36.43 | stderr | well the Bush administration fired all the experts Clinton had collected on Middle Eastern relations and Islamic terrorism so they probably were completely confused. |
| 21:36.48 | Lone_Wanderer | it'd be like "Oh here you are, bang you're dead, let's go home shall we?" |
| 21:36.59 | stderr | yup |
| 21:37.00 | Lone_Wanderer | "P.S. candy and bubblegum for everyone" |
| 21:37.29 | unum | I'm suprised we didn't have the saudis more involved in iraq |
| 21:37.30 | influx | that's so effed |
| 21:37.42 | Lone_Wanderer | "PPS we now have better relations with some big nations in the middle east" |
| 21:37.44 | unum | that was the whole thing with kuwait americans didn't enter the city |
| 21:38.35 | stderr | unum: we should've bombed Saudi if anywhere |
| 21:38.44 | stderr | since that's where all the money is coming from to our enemies |
| 21:38.58 | stderr | But naw Big Oil... err The Bush Whitehouse loves Saudis |
| 21:39.08 | unum | stderr: that's were almost all of the hijackers were from |
| 21:39.14 | stderr | unum: I'm well-aware |
| 21:39.29 | unum | they're also one of the most oppresive governments in the world |
| 21:39.40 | unum | though hussein did have them beat |
| 21:39.44 | influx | stderr: You done with your enlistment? |
| 21:39.44 | stderr | pop quiz, hot shot: country with the most amount of terrorist training camps? |
| 21:39.52 | stderr | influx: yar |
| 21:39.54 | influx | stderr: Venezuela |
| 21:40.00 | stderr | Nope, Somalia |
| 21:40.00 | influx | what do i win |
| 21:40.04 | influx | aww |
| 21:40.13 | influx | stderr: Cool. |
| 21:40.43 | stderr | if Pakistan disintegrates and they need people I'll probably just volunteer back up |
| 21:41.07 | stderr | zie guilt would get to me |
| 21:41.09 | Lone_Wanderer | 19D again? |
| 21:41.20 | stderr | Lone_Wanderer: maybe see if I could get another shot at 18 |
| 21:41.23 | influx | I think I'm at a point in my life where I would actually go through with the signup. |
| 21:41.26 | stderr | but otherwise, for sure 19D |
| 21:41.30 | influx | But I don't think the military would take me. |
| 21:41.38 | stderr | influx: why not? |
| 21:41.39 | Lone_Wanderer | I don't know if enlisting as 18X is still an option. |
| 21:41.51 | stderr | Lone_Wanderer: you can get an SFAS shot in your contract though |
| 21:41.53 | Lone_Wanderer | If you're going to go for it, do CrossFit for a few months before you go. |
| 21:42.02 | Lone_Wanderer | cool, that's what the 18X option is. |
| 21:42.20 | stderr | well, yea, I suppose it is |
| 21:42.25 | Lone_Wanderer | "a shot" |
| 21:43.12 | Lone_Wanderer | I have until probably the end of the year to decide if I'm going back to selection or not. |
| 21:43.18 | stderr | it'd be cool to be an SF medical sergeant |
| 21:43.41 | Lone_Wanderer | Heck yeah it would. |
| 21:44.07 | stderr | I could definitely see myself doing that if they didn't try to hustle me into the engineering or radio operations 18 MOSes |
| 21:44.34 | Lone_Wanderer | Don't tell them about your computer background. |
| 21:44.41 | Lone_Wanderer | Play up your family's medical background. |
| 21:44.52 | stderr | yea |
| 21:45.07 | Lone_Wanderer | honestly though I suspect they have a hard time filling the D slots |
| 21:45.18 | Lone_Wanderer | so if you were volunteering and had the smarts they'd probably put you in it |
| 21:45.31 | Lone_Wanderer | if the training weren't so long, I'd do it in a second |
| 21:46.38 | stderr | I wouldn't mind being a fister either |
| 21:46.39 | stderr | utahcon: same |
| 21:46.50 | Lone_Wanderer | fister? |
| 21:46.58 | stderr | 13F, essentially artillery scout |
| 21:47.10 | Lone_Wanderer | why are they called fisters? |
| 21:47.14 | stderr | lowest survival rate of any MOS >:) |
| 21:47.23 | Lone_Wanderer | forward observer for artillery, right? |
| 21:47.26 | stderr | yea |
| 21:47.40 | utahcon | stderr: have you gotten the followup email yet? |
| 21:47.41 | Lone_Wanderer | yeah, those are the guys that everyone wants dead as fast as possible |
| 21:47.59 | Lone_Wanderer | and they've got all the motivation in the world for killing them |
| 21:48.02 | stderr | utahcon: yup |
| 21:48.11 | utahcon | stderr: did it take long? |
| 21:48.14 | stderr | Lone_Wanderer: I'm sneaky |
| 21:48.17 | stderr | utahcon: 5~ minutes or so |
| 21:48.21 | Lone_Wanderer | yeah but still |
| 21:48.27 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm glad someone's volunteering for it :) |
| 21:49.34 | stderr | I would totally try to get artillery strikes right on the mark every time. keep a tally |
| 21:50.55 | Lone_Wanderer | I wonder how long it'll be till they start using UAVs in place of 13F's |
| 21:51.32 | stderr | a fister is probably cheaper than a UAV ;-) |
| 21:51.54 | influx | :o |
| 21:51.55 | Lone_Wanderer | Yeah probable |
| 21:51.57 | Lone_Wanderer | probably* |
| 21:52.36 | Lone_Wanderer | okay |
| 21:53.14 | stderr | I'd probably be a bad fister though, relying on calling artillery rather than my weapon would probably make me excruciatingly tense |
| 21:53.45 | Lone_Wanderer | Man just bring some insta-pop popcorn |
| 21:53.47 | Lone_Wanderer | and a lawn chair |
| 21:53.49 | wps | good clarifying note I just learned from the wikipedia article (working my way through it); |
| 21:53.52 | wps | "While some label Canada's system as "socialized medicine," the term is inaccurate. Unlike systems with public delivery, such as the UK, the Canadian system provides public coverage for private delivery. As Princeton University health economist Uwe E. Reinhardt notes, single-payer systems are not "socialized medicine" but "social insurance" systems, because doctors are in the private sector." |
| 21:54.03 | beandog | you guys are still talking about healthcare? |
| 21:54.06 | beandog | shee mongie |
| 21:54.12 | Lone_Wanderer | apparently wps is ;) |
| 21:54.32 | wps | I'm doing my homework |
| 21:54.41 | influx | A++ |
| 21:55.14 | Lone_Wanderer | I kind of wonder how often the 19th deploys. |
| 21:55.27 | wps | don't want dataw0lf to think I'm craddled in hanity's arms |
| 21:55.35 | wps | :) |
| 21:55.42 | stderr | >_> |
| 21:55.43 | stderr | <_< |
| 21:55.45 | stderr | ;-) |
| 21:55.45 | Lone_Wanderer | Oh, that's right, I was leaving. |
| 21:55.53 | *** part/#uphpu Lone_Wanderer (n=Dan@c-67-169-246-153.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:57.06 | *** part/#uphpu _psychic_ (n=_psychic@173.8.91.177) |
| 22:02.23 | unum | hey my tax reduction disappeared.... |
| 22:03.01 | unum | the account probably screwed up |
| 22:04.38 | wps | this is a good article (wikipedia), stderr |
| 22:04.49 | wps | covering the topic very well |
| 22:05.21 | mgeary_ | wow |
| 22:05.25 | mgeary_ | what a conversation i missed |
| 22:05.27 | mgeary_ | darn |
| 22:06.44 | herlo | mgeary: you didn't miss much, felt like #utah all over again :/ |
| 22:07.23 | mgeary | heh |
| 22:08.42 | wps | I still auto-join every day for some reason, but never look at what's going on in there |
| 22:08.44 | beandog | ~avoid |
| 22:09.11 | beandog | I think Ive lost the strength to diagnose stupid problems today. |
| 22:09.21 | beandog | ~smack awstats |
| 22:09.22 | ibot | ACTION smacks awstats upside the head. |
| 22:10.13 | mgeary | but i will say this-- when was the last time any of you had to schedule an appointment with a specialist? |
| 22:10.14 | herlo | mgeary: as do I. but when politics leaks into a programming channel, I am reminded. #uphpu isn't that bad, but it does get *interesting* in here more and more as of late... |
| 22:10.49 | mgeary | if you think we're different from the "socialist" countries, because they have to wait 6 months to see a specialist, pick up the phone right now and try to get an echocardiogram |
| 22:11.10 | wps | I'd say that conversations have started more lately because the government has been working on bigger issues |
| 22:11.24 | mgeary | my mother-in-law was diagnosed with an acute level-4 glioblastoma brain tumor. She was going to have to wait 4 months for an operation |
| 22:11.33 | herlo | ya probably |
| 22:11.55 | mgeary | we happened to have a personal connection to an outstanding neurologist who took her on immediately and extended her life by 2 years |
| 22:11.55 | wps | where does she live, mgeary? |
| 22:12.03 | mgeary | she passed away, but she lived in Orem |
| 22:12.29 | mgeary | but don't tell me we've got some amazing healthcare system where the market ensures we get the best quality and don't have to wait |
| 22:13.12 | herlo | my response was to wps...just to clarify |
| 22:14.06 | wps | I just fear anything that removes freedoms |
| 22:14.21 | wps | it's a slipperly slopeâ¦Â the more we give away the faster it goes |
| 22:14.35 | beandog | I think wps has just been having a rough day |
| 22:14.58 | wps | or week if you count my Floridians are idiots rant :) |
| 22:15.11 | stderr | hey! I'm wearing my "Floridian Jew" outfit today |
| 22:15.28 | wps | thanks for your benefit of the doubt though, beandog |
| 22:15.37 | wps | I will admit that I speak (type) hard |
| 22:15.51 | beandog | wps, well you seem to have been generally a bit frustrated |
| 22:16.30 | beandog | today |
| 22:16.34 | beandog | wps, take the weekend off man |
| 22:16.38 | beandog | no political debate for you :) |
| 22:16.43 | wps | it's been a hard week |
| 22:16.48 | wps | actually |
| 22:16.59 | wps | about fours hours of sleep per night |
| 22:17.06 | wps | my wife as gone to girl's camp all week |
| 22:17.14 | wps | so I was playing single parent with my two kids |
| 22:18.00 | beandog | that's rough |
| 22:18.01 | beandog | :T |
| 22:18.24 | beandog | how old are your kids, wps ? |
| 22:18.29 | wps | 1 and 3 |
| 22:18.33 | beandog | wow |
| 22:18.36 | beandog | good luck with that. :) |
| 22:19.48 | beandog | my gosh, how do people txt |
| 22:19.51 | beandog | I can barely type on this phone |
| 22:21.37 | beandog | I think its a sign that I'm old. |
| 22:21.43 | beandog | which has me more worried. |
| 22:21.52 | beandog | I'm being phased out! |
| 22:23.12 | stderr | I had no idea you were so Steampunk, influx |
| 22:23.18 | influx | Heh. |
| 22:23.23 | orsonj | I can only text when I have a keyboard, none of this 222566444#33466222... annoying stuff |
| 22:24.33 | unum | I'm 30 and I can text |
| 22:24.40 | unum | my last bishop used to text us all the time |
| 22:24.58 | unum | my state rep has also sent me texts |
| 22:25.14 | orsonj | Well, I can text, I just hate the input method, way too slow. |
| 22:25.40 | unum | the best was when his daughter called him out for reading his text messages when he was at a red light |
| 22:27.03 | beandog | I wonder if theres's enough space in my office for a port-a-potty |
| 22:27.56 | influx | ha |
| 22:27.59 | influx | ... |
| 22:28.00 | influx | wait, what |
| 22:28.28 | beandog | actually that may have some unforeseen bad side effects |
| 22:28.30 | unum | there's plenty in mine, but i don't think I'll get one |
| 22:28.47 | *** join/#uphpu josephscott_ (n=josephsc@75-169-246-90.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 22:29.28 | beandog | isn't that like an extreme show of executive privilege |
| 22:29.30 | influx | Is there anyone in your office/building that would tip the porta potty over? |
| 22:29.32 | beandog | your own private bathroom? |
| 22:31.11 | mgeary | hey, is there a way to selectively extract a directory from a large gzip file? |
| 22:32.13 | unum | yes |
| 22:32.23 | stderr | no but there is a way from a tar file which I assume you're talking about |
| 22:32.38 | unum | ah I guess that what I meant |
| 22:32.53 | influx | These are not the droids you are looking for. |
| 22:32.59 | mgeary | examples? |
| 22:33.07 | unum | I'd use archiver |
| 22:33.08 | influx | stderr = jedi |
| 22:33.11 | unum | I'm lazy like that :) |
| 22:35.38 | stderr | sorry, developer needed help |
| 22:35.53 | stderr | mgeary: tar -x /path/to/specific/dir -f tarball.tar |
| 22:36.15 | stderr | you may need to add a wildcard to the specific dir path but I'm unsure |
| 22:36.22 | mgeary | so, if it's a tar.gz, the whole thing will first need to be extracted, one way or another? |
| 22:36.30 | stderr | no, just gunzipped |
| 22:36.33 | stderr | which will give you a tar file |
| 22:36.40 | stderr | gunzip tarball.tgz |
| 22:36.42 | mgeary | yeah |
| 22:36.45 | stderr | tar -x /path/to/dir -f tarball.tar |
| 22:36.47 | mgeary | it'll just take a loong time |
| 22:36.51 | mgeary | but better than nothing |
| 22:37.11 | stderr | extracting specific files/dirs from tarballs is slow as hell to begin with |
| 22:37.18 | stderr | since they're just a replication of a tape archive |
| 22:37.27 | stderr | have to fast-forward, essentially, to find it |
| 22:44.03 | DexterTheDragon | mindjuju: http://www.jinx.com/men/shirts/geek/bounty_hunter.html#bigdesign |
| 22:51.16 | SunSparc | Have a great weekend all! |
| 22:52.21 | stderr | cya guys in a week, I'm goin on vacation |
| 22:52.21 | beandog | DexterTheDragon, lol |
| 22:52.36 | wps | thanks for the chat |
| 22:52.39 | wps | have a good weekend |
| 22:52.43 | beandog | have fun |
| 22:57.30 | wps | this Frontline story is good |
| 22:58.11 | jsmith | wps: Link? |
| 22:58.19 | wps | http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundamerica/view/ |
| 22:58.47 | wps | it's an hour commitment to watch it all |
| 23:01.00 | josephscott_ | I generally like watching Frontline |
| 23:01.23 | josephscott_ | some subjects are more interesting than others, but they seem to generally do a good job covering their topics |
| 23:03.17 | wps | substr('josephscott_', 0, 11); |
| 23:03.32 | DexterTheDragon | substr('josephscott_', 0, -1); |
| 23:04.06 | josephscott_ | you can thank my qwest dsl for dropping/reconnecting |
| 23:04.14 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v josephscott] by ChanServ |
| 23:04.53 | josephscott | would love to have fiber to my home some day |
| 23:07.45 | josephscott | and now I'm off to dinner. have a good weekend. |
| 23:14.19 | beandog | what the heck |
| 23:14.21 | beandog | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRu_DQnJoTQ |
| 23:14.52 | beandog | I guess you gotta be Russian to get it |
| 23:25.15 | mgeary | hey, jsmith |
| 23:26.21 | beandog | oy, theres some weird movies out there. |
| 23:26.41 | beandog | and youtube has some really dumb bugs. |
| 23:43.24 | wps | for those still around⦠|
| 23:43.28 | wps | This bullet point from The American Conservative Unionâs Statement of Principles summarizes my position perfectly (bullet eight under Sharon Statement): |
| 23:43.32 | wps | âThat when government interferes with the work of the market economy, it tends to reduce the moral and physical strength of the nation; that when it takes from one man to bestow on another, it diminishes the incentive of the first, the integrity of the second, and the moral autonomy of both;â |
| 23:43.37 | wps | http://ww.cpac.org/about/principles.html |
| 23:44.57 | beandog | let it go, man |
| 23:44.58 | beandog | :) |
| 23:45.03 | beandog | go have a weekend, wps! |
| 23:45.11 | beandog | go watch harry potter XVIII |
| 23:49.15 | beandog | Ok, Im leaving |
| 23:49.17 | beandog | have a good one guys |
| 23:54.11 | fungus | wps, I agree with much of those principles, but there are others which scare the crap out of me. |
| 23:54.21 | fungus | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:54.21 | fungus | |
| 23:54.21 | fungus | ⢠That the United States should stress victory over, rather than coexistance with, this menace; and |
| 23:54.26 | fungus | WTF? |
| 23:57.08 | fungus | Sounds an awful lot like McCarthy. |