| 00:13.29 | Jacob_Kerr | comment on: http://imgur.com/wiEJN.jpg. That maybe a "family friend" that has 6 months to live. |
| 00:13.30 | *** join/#uphpu DexterTh1Dragon (n=admin@67-42-121-179.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 00:14.25 | Jacob_Kerr | OH nvm stupid comment :) |
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| 03:25.18 | wps | FYIâ¦Â bluehost is offering a special promo on hosting right now |
| 03:25.23 | wps | $3.95/month |
| 03:25.29 | wps | 1 or 2 years |
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| 03:35.35 | herlo | wps: just pure hosting? I sure wish it was something more... |
| 03:35.51 | wps | more? |
| 03:36.08 | wps | like what? you get shell access, PHP, MySQL, and unlimited domains |
| 03:36.13 | wps | that's pretty good for $47 a year |
| 03:36.37 | wps | I'm going to get me one so that I can move all my stuff there while I rebuild my box |
| 03:37.01 | herlo | vps |
| 03:37.08 | herlo | that's what I want |
| 03:37.18 | wps | ah |
| 03:37.23 | herlo | but at those prices, I can't expect that |
| 03:37.25 | wps | yes, you don't get dedicated resources |
| 03:37.29 | wps | yeah |
| 03:38.11 | herlo | ah well, still a decent deal |
| 03:59.11 | herlo | utahcon: hi |
| 03:59.24 | herlo | utahcon: how much does linode charge? |
| 04:04.38 | Lone_Wanderer | cheap |
| 04:05.30 | Lone_Wanderer | I can afford it so it must be |
| 04:05.30 | Lone_Wanderer | night everyone |
| 04:05.30 | herlo | heh |
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| 14:40.58 | justincarmony | how is everyone this mroning? |
| 14:41.00 | justincarmony | morning* |
| 14:41.34 | Utah_Dave | morning! |
| 14:44.27 | mastergunns | morning |
| 14:45.53 | jsmith | morning |
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| 16:09.25 | carmony | so... whats up? :P |
| 16:09.44 | DexterTheDragon | firefox 3.5 |
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| 16:39.45 | SunSparc | That typography stuff is awesome! |
| 16:39.54 | SunSparc | ~ie-- |
| 16:40.01 | carmony | ~karma ie |
| 16:40.01 | ibot | ie has karma of -230 |
| 16:40.15 | DexterTheDragon | ~ie-- |
| 16:40.23 | carmony | we're 1/3rd of the way to 666! |
| 16:40.51 | SunSparc | woot! |
| 16:41.00 | carmony | 34.5345% to be exact |
| 16:41.42 | mindjuju | ~dtdhit carmony |
| 16:41.42 | ibot | ACTION stikes at carmony with the fire of the cat seizure knocking off an appendage! |
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| 16:43.07 | DexterTheDragon | ~bdhit carmony |
| 16:43.08 | ibot | ACTION leaps to Sunrise Claw of the Cruel Snake on carmony |
| 16:46.00 | carmony | http://devzone.zend.com/article/4792 |
| 16:46.10 | carmony | we could get some ZendCon passes to give away :P |
| 16:46.52 | DexterTheDragon | s/passes/pass |
| 16:48.58 | mindjuju | dexterthedragon / carmony |
| 16:49.03 | mindjuju | i did the first couple things |
| 16:49.08 | mindjuju | ya'll should write these |
| 16:49.09 | mindjuju | Reasons why you feel that your group should be granted a pass. How you plan on picking the person who will get the pass. |
| 16:51.12 | DexterTheDragon | "How you plan on picking the person": caged death match |
| 16:51.26 | mindjuju | awesome, i'll put that |
| 16:51.42 | mindjuju | what should i put for reasons...? |
| 16:51.59 | SunSparc | "We like free things." |
| 16:53.14 | mindjuju | k, here is the email |
| 16:53.15 | mindjuju | Utah PHP Users Group would like to have some free passes to the conference. You can find our website at www.uphpu.org. |
| 16:53.16 | mindjuju | As to how we will settle who gets the ticket, we're planning either a caged death match or some kind of wrestling event. It'll prolly be filmed and posted to youtube. |
| 16:53.16 | mindjuju | As to why we deserve it, we like free things. |
| 16:53.16 | mindjuju | thanks! |
| 16:53.17 | mindjuju | Victor Villa |
| 16:53.19 | mindjuju | President UPHPU |
| 16:53.21 | mindjuju | uphpu.org |
| 16:53.49 | mindjuju | is it send-worthy? |
| 16:55.53 | carmony | ~ie-- |
| 16:56.05 | mindjuju | you know herlo, we should prolly do something like that |
| 16:56.22 | mindjuju | give 1 free ticket out to the UGs making them do some crazy thing for it, and post it to youtube |
| 16:56.47 | mindjuju | k, final call for votes for my email on a send it or leave it |
| 16:56.55 | mindjuju | 2 votes in favor,none opposed so far |
| 16:57.51 | SunSparc | ~ie-- |
| 16:58.19 | mindjuju | ...and... it's official, that's our email for zend tickets |
| 16:58.22 | mindjuju | thx to all who voted |
| 16:58.26 | mindjuju | that would be me and itimber |
| 16:58.34 | DexterTheDragon | hehehe |
| 16:58.37 | itimber | hehe |
| 16:58.44 | SunSparc | :) |
| 16:58.47 | mindjuju | dexterthedragon better be ready for a wrastlin' match |
| 16:59.02 | SunSparc | I'll bring the video camera... |
| 16:59.03 | DexterTheDragon | I figure if itimber endorses it, it's good |
| 16:59.29 | itimber | :) |
| 17:14.19 | Utah_Dave | mindjuju: should be fun! Who's going to start it off? |
| 17:16.46 | DexterTheDragon | should I reply with it doesn't matter cause I can hack it whatever method he uses |
| 17:20.50 | carmony | LOL.... I should be like "Just MD5 it...." |
| 17:20.58 | carmony | THAT would cause a lot of activity ;)( |
| 17:21.00 | carmony | ;) |
| 17:21.18 | unum | I've had a similiar question but my approach was different.... |
| 17:21.36 | unum | then I talked to the owner and he agreed with me that we just shouldn't store socials |
| 17:21.41 | Utah_Dave | carmony: no, ROT13 would be appropriate in that case |
| 17:21.49 | unum | there is one good reason we should do it |
| 17:22.11 | unum | maybe we will decide to do it when I decide I'm smarter |
| 17:22.21 | mindjuju | i dare ya to say rot13 |
| 17:23.01 | unum | actually am storing it in another database for the same reason that he is. but that database is cleared frequently |
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| 17:28.57 | mgeary | ~yow |
| 17:29.07 | DexterTheDragon | SunSparc: auth.net's CIM doesn't allow you to pull the info back out |
| 17:29.27 | SunSparc | Seriously? |
| 17:29.29 | SunSparc | Lame |
| 17:29.49 | DexterTheDragon | its made to store a credit card securely so you can run charges against it |
| 17:30.08 | DexterTheDragon | so they store the cc, you store some foreign key and run the charges against that |
| 17:30.44 | mgeary | you CAN pull *some* info out |
| 17:30.52 | mgeary | but not the full card #, nor the exp date |
| 17:31.04 | DexterTheDragon | but the new version of CIM doesn't store SSN |
| 17:31.23 | SunSparc | mgeary: I remember you going through a lot of CIM frustration to become a wizard. :) |
| 17:31.28 | mgeary | yes i was |
| 17:31.32 | mgeary | lots of pain |
| 17:32.02 | mgeary | afaik, CIM hasn't ever officially supported SSN (though I could be wrong). Why do you need it? |
| 17:32.32 | DexterTheDragon | mgeary: an old version of CIM took ssn/tax id for tax things |
| 17:32.52 | mgeary | well, you could still feed it in if you wanted to |
| 17:33.02 | mgeary | we misuse the customer fax # field like that |
| 17:33.16 | mgeary | we set the fax # to a unix timestamp, so we know when the CIM record was last updated |
| 17:36.01 | orsonj | ~ie-- |
| 17:36.30 | carmony | http://2009.utosc.com/presentation/32/ Alright, I've submitted my first Abstract for UTOSC :) |
| 17:36.53 | SunSparc | ~ie-- |
| 17:40.47 | DexterTheDragon | ~ie-- |
| 17:41.08 | SunSparc | ~ie-- |
| 17:43.29 | thebigdog | i want to present on how to just make money! |
| 17:46.10 | SunSparc | thebigdog: Do tell. |
| 17:47.43 | thebigdog | 1 sec presentation - just be the best |
| 17:47.45 | thebigdog | hehe |
| 17:48.28 | SunSparc | hah |
| 17:48.33 | SunSparc | Working on it. |
| 17:48.34 | SunSparc | : |
| 18:28.17 | herlo | carmony: nice! |
| 18:43.19 | carmony | I'm thinking about putting together a presentation for business owners / managers who are in charge of running their company website |
| 18:44.49 | jsmith | I'm thinking of putting together a presentation for web developers to convince them to move into another profession |
| 18:45.53 | macnewbold | ~lart jsmith |
| 18:45.53 | ibot | shoves a crumpet down jsmith's throat, happy now?! Huh? Want some JAM with that? |
| 18:46.49 | jsmith | macnewbold: Oh, it's not for people like you who are already *good* web developers |
| 18:47.07 | unum | jsmith: can you put together fa presentation for managers about why a web app is ALWAYS the wrong solution |
| 18:47.24 | jsmith | macnewbold: It's for the people who say "Gee... there must be lots of money in web development... Can you teach me HTML in ten minutes?" |
| 18:48.36 | mindjuju | i wonder if we can get the video professor to come out |
| 18:48.43 | mindjuju | maybe give away some of his CDs |
| 18:49.18 | jsmith | mindjuju: But then they'd get rich on eBay, and mess that up too... |
| 18:49.38 | mindjuju | ebay already messed up |
| 18:49.56 | mindjuju | with buy.com and other major stores starting to sell on eBay without paying the same seller fees |
| 18:50.06 | mindjuju | essentially squeezing out the small guy selling crap |
| 18:50.23 | mindjuju | which, sadly, was the whole point of ebay in the first place |
| 18:50.27 | macnewbold | jsmith: that's okay then. |
| 18:50.44 | macnewbold | it's for _wanna-be_ web developers |
| 18:51.23 | jsmith | macnewbold: Yeah... and for those existing web developers that make my life a pain more often than not |
| 18:52.20 | carmony | lol |
| 18:53.51 | jsmith | mindjuju: Today, it would be to make a web application that works correctly 90% of the time, but 10% of the page views have a formatting problem |
| 18:54.06 | SunSparc | jsmith: Can you teach me how to make a quick and easy shopping cart that is better than Amazon's? I need to have it by tomorrow. |
| 18:54.08 | jsmith | mindjuju: Then, make it darn near impossible to figure out why it's being rendered wrong 10% of the time |
| 18:54.20 | mindjuju | :) |
| 18:54.24 | jsmith | SunSparc: Been there, done that.... still have the scars |
| 18:54.32 | SunSparc | :) |
| 18:57.43 | jsmith | This would have been like 7 years ago |
| 18:58.01 | jsmith | We were building a product demo for a large industrial supply company |
| 18:58.23 | jsmith | And we wanted the demo to look just like their shopping cart |
| 18:58.49 | jsmith | So, over Thanksgiving weekend, I got tasked with re-implementing their shopping cart (down to the last detail), from scratch |
| 18:59.02 | SunSparc | Wahuh?! |
| 18:59.09 | carmony | WHOA |
| 18:59.14 | jsmith | Just for a demo on Monday |
| 18:59.17 | SunSparc | Impossible. |
| 18:59.21 | macnewbold | awesome |
| 18:59.28 | carmony | I'd demand like 4 times my hourly rate :P |
| 18:59.30 | macnewbold | that's when you use screenshots and link them together |
| 18:59.38 | jsmith | I was young and stupid... so I did it |
| 18:59.47 | jsmith | Still have the scars, like I said |
| 19:00.01 | jsmith | But it worked... the demo went great... and the company didn't buy our product |
| 19:00.02 | macnewbold | apparently not stupid, if you managed to pull it off |
| 19:00.04 | SunSparc | ~console jsmith |
| 19:00.05 | ibot | ACTION gives jsmith the consolation moose |
| 19:00.43 | jsmith | macnewbold: Well, I pulled off enough that it *behaved* exactly like their shopping cart... obviously I didn't have to worry about merchant accounts, etc. |
| 19:01.08 | jsmith | macnewbold: and I didn't have to worry about inventory levels or rebates or kickbacks or affiliates... |
| 19:01.15 | SunSparc | So basically a working demo. Nice. |
| 19:01.23 | jsmith | Yeah... |
| 19:01.32 | SunSparc | aka, prototype |
| 19:02.33 | SunSparc | Usually never worth is. |
| 19:02.34 | SunSparc | it |
| 19:06.21 | jsmith | If it's worth writing, it's worth writing again |
| 19:06.31 | jsmith | If it never gets re-written, it wasn't worth writing in the first place |
| 19:06.34 | carmony | The one time I pulled serious overtime hours for a deadline and It paid off big, I didn't get any credit, so I quit the company :P |
| 19:07.03 | SunSparc | exactly |
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| 19:25.03 | mindjuju | Yipee! I get to balance the California Budget! |
| 19:25.03 | mindjuju | http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-statebudget-fl-2,0,6957202.htmlstory |
| 19:26.51 | SunSparc | That's a clever idea. |
| 19:27.04 | mindjuju | I am the Govenator, listen to me compute |
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| 19:39.32 | stderr | *gasp* they stole our flash app! |
| 19:39.37 | stderr | which I wrote |
| 19:40.14 | Lone_Wanderer | Who did? |
| 19:40.25 | SunSparc | LA Times? |
| 19:40.29 | stderr | yea |
| 19:40.33 | stderr | man |
| 19:40.37 | stderr | that actually could be it |
| 19:40.50 | stderr | I'm going to zie editor with this |
| 19:43.53 | SunSparc | I wish I could use the === operator on a 1/0 value coming from MySQL and have it work without having to put quotes around the 1 or 0. |
| 19:44.42 | SunSparc | Goes back to the wish for a true boolean value in MySQL and more strict data typing in PHP. |
| 19:44.47 | SunSparc | Oh well. |
| 19:44.56 | SunSparc | That is why we have C++ |
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| 19:57.43 | Lone_Wanderer | >.< some idiot is telling people that "wine is nothing more than fermented grape juice, just buy some Welch's and bread yeast and mix them together in a bucket, you'll have wine in about a week." |
| 19:58.05 | unum | actually I saw a website where the guy did much worse than that |
| 19:58.10 | unum | and said it was pretty close |
| 19:58.25 | Lone_Wanderer | pretty close to what? |
| 19:59.05 | SunSparc | What IS wine, if not fermented grape juice? |
| 19:59.21 | unum | http://www.thesneeze.com/mt-archives/cat_steve_dont_eat_it.php |
| 19:59.23 | Lone_Wanderer | Technically, wine is fermented grape juice |
| 19:59.44 | Lone_Wanderer | but you can't just take Welch's and throw yeast in it and expect to get anything drinkable |
| 20:00.08 | unum | vol 8 |
| 20:01.09 | Lone_Wanderer | At a minimum you should have the whole grape available to you when you start the fermentation |
| 20:01.22 | Lone_Wanderer | so you can control how long it's fermented with the skins on |
| 20:02.18 | Lone_Wanderer | Also, Welch's is just squished concords. You can make wine from concords but it's not that good. |
| 20:02.31 | Lone_Wanderer | (Lower sugar content.) |
| 20:02.31 | carmony | in theory that is what wine is, but if you said something like "A website is just text wrapped around an <html> tag..." While theoretically correct, they are missing the point :P |
| 20:03.28 | Lone_Wanderer | And the entire fermentation process from start to finish has to be carefully controlled - temperature, humidity, etc. |
| 20:03.38 | Lone_Wanderer | Controlled and STERILE. (Except for what you want to be there, obviously.) |
| 20:04.22 | Lone_Wanderer | If you just put yeast and grape juice in the bucket, the yeast would get crowded out by whatever happened to be living in the bucket at the time. You'd end up with rotten, vomit-inducing crap with mold growing on top. |
| 20:08.30 | Lone_Wanderer | Time to head out. Going to Virginia this week. Later all. |
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| 20:10.25 | SunSparc | Well, there you go. In think Lone_Wanderer should present on Wine. |
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| 20:36.35 | unum | someone could try the experiment posted in my link |
| 20:36.38 | unum | I won't drink it with you |
| 20:36.59 | SunSparc | http://blog.redbox.com/redblog/2009/06/indiana-jones-5-and-mission-impossible-4-eh-sure-why-not.html |
| 20:39.37 | beandog | Didn't MI3 suck enough? |
| 20:50.02 | carmony | MI2 was the really bad one |
| 20:51.37 | SunSparc | Yeah, not as impressed with MI2 |
| 20:51.50 | mindjuju | saw 10 minutes of MI2 and had to stop watching |
| 20:51.53 | mindjuju | didn't dare MI3 |
| 20:51.57 | mindjuju | though the first was good |
| 20:52.08 | xtrementl | i rmemeber the game on N64 |
| 20:52.15 | mindjuju | Indy 4 was interesting |
| 20:52.54 | mindjuju | i'm just sad we have to sully an already established and cherished franchise |
| 20:53.10 | mindjuju | next thing you know, they'll be doing Casablanca 2 :: Return to Casablanca |
| 20:53.28 | carmony | MI 1 > MI 3 > CRAP > MI 2 |
| 20:53.40 | mindjuju | the plane crashes and victor lezlo and chick swim back to casablank |
| 20:53.50 | mindjuju | and the chief and bogart are already gone |
| 20:54.06 | mindjuju | and then bogart fights to get back into casablanca and rescue them |
| 20:54.44 | mindjuju | i think carpenter or donner should film this |
| 20:55.15 | fungus | nah, Michael Bay can screw up better than anyone. |
| 20:55.22 | mindjuju | which, btw, i hear being considered for new star trek 2 (alternate timeline) they are thinking of doing Khan |
| 20:55.48 | fungus | but he's dead |
| 20:55.57 | mindjuju | but not in the new timeline |
| 20:56.18 | fungus | no, he's dead. no one can do Kahn like Montalban |
| 20:56.19 | SunSparc | Hmm, might not go over well. |
| 20:56.30 | SunSparc | fungus: Good point. |
| 20:56.35 | mindjuju | oh, i see what you mean, yeah he's dead |
| 20:56.45 | mindjuju | but i know they are thinking of doing khan with somebody else |
| 20:56.56 | fungus | eww |
| 20:57.00 | mindjuju | yeah |
| 21:03.40 | SunSparc | ~ie-- |
| 21:04.51 | mindjuju | ~karma ie |
| 21:04.51 | ibot | ie has karma of -238 |
| 21:06.37 | stderr | iphone users, rejoice: http://newtoyinc.com/wp/ |
| 21:06.45 | stderr | also MI3 was amazing, MI2 was garbage. |
| 21:07.13 | stderr | mindjuju: you should definitely grab MI3, I promise, it's pretty good. |
| 21:08.05 | SunSparc | stderr: Multiplayer Chess on the iPhone, sweet! |
| 21:09.08 | stderr | SunSparc: aw jea |
| 21:09.46 | Utah_Dave | mindjuju: I agree. I enjoyed MI3, too |
| 21:10.29 | mindjuju | i'll have to check it out |
| 21:10.33 | stderr | Philip Seymour Hoffman is a really good actor. |
| 21:10.36 | mindjuju | btw, ravetrax is playing some good stuff |
| 21:11.29 | DexterTheDragon | ravetrax it is |
| 21:12.51 | unum | is there a way to make apache run php scripts as a different user |
| 21:12.57 | SunSparc | stderr: Hoffman MADE that move awesome. It was so intense and his evil was so palpable you could not help fear him. |
| 21:13.31 | stderr | SunSparc: so true. |
| 21:13.41 | fungus | unum: see suphp |
| 21:14.19 | stderr | suexec/suphp |
| 21:14.41 | stderr | FastCGI + suexec is pretty cool |
| 21:16.31 | unum | thanks guys |
| 21:20.33 | stderr | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:24.53 | SunSparc | That is a cool site. |
| 21:44.06 | mindjuju | anybody know off hand which IE browsers support png transparency ? |
| 21:44.21 | mgeary | 7+ |
| 21:44.23 | SunSparc | Support? Or Support well? |
| 21:44.24 | mgeary | 6 does with a hack |
| 21:44.38 | SunSparc | I do not think any of them support it very well. |
| 21:44.40 | mindjuju | :) |
| 21:45.05 | SunSparc | ~lart IE |
| 21:45.06 | ibot | stamps IE on the forehead with the official Troll marker |
| 21:45.08 | SunSparc | ~ie-- |
| 21:46.44 | *** join/#uphpu josephscott_ (n=josephsc@166.135.127.15) |
| 21:50.16 | stderr | http://pdxpoeks.appspot.com/map/saltlakecity.craigslist.org/rea/ |
| 21:51.55 | orsonj | ~ie-- |
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| 21:53.36 | SunSparc | ~ie-- |
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| 22:08.39 | carmony | ~ie-- |
| 22:10.14 | SunSparc | ~ie-- |
| 22:15.41 | SunSparc | ~ie-- |
| 22:16.07 | SunSparc | ~ie-- |
| 22:19.53 | beandog | are you moving? |
| 22:20.21 | mindjuju | no, just confused on the political events that occurred there a few days ago to present |
| 22:20.29 | beandog | oh? what happened |
| 22:20.43 | mindjuju | well, as best as I understand it: |
| 22:21.08 | mindjuju | Honduras President called for a non-binding vote to see if the people would support lengthing presidential terms |
| 22:21.37 | mindjuju | the Honduras Supreme Court ordered the military (who normally carries out the voting) to NOT do this |
| 22:21.57 | mindjuju | under orders from Honduras Congress + Supreme Court, the military ousted the President |
| 22:22.07 | mindjuju | and Put somebody from the same political party in his stead |
| 22:22.23 | mindjuju | the UN is coming down hard saying the president shouldn't have been ousted |
| 22:22.40 | mindjuju | the honduras ongress and supreme court have said if the ousted pres returns, he'll be arrested |
| 22:22.53 | mindjuju | Obama is siding with the UN |
| 22:23.05 | beandog | ick, sounds like a potential civil war |
| 22:23.13 | DexterTheDragon | whats a honduras? |
| 22:23.18 | mindjuju | First question, is it REALLY a coup if you're acting under the direction of the congress? |
| 22:23.29 | beandog | mindjuju, I think it would be classified as one |
| 22:23.31 | mindjuju | and if the military has not supplanted all government for their own |
| 22:23.38 | beandog | forced exile |
| 22:23.40 | beandog | something |
| 22:23.41 | beandog | who knows. |
| 22:24.19 | mindjuju | it's very interesting to say the least |
| 22:24.33 | mindjuju | it's interesting that they didn't wipe out the party the guy belonged to |
| 22:24.34 | beandog | lengthening the presdiential rule |
| 22:24.41 | mindjuju | and they even got somebody else from that same party |
| 22:24.44 | beandog | that's, um, a scary question to ask to start with. |
| 22:25.11 | mindjuju | yes, and with Chavez being friends with the now ousted pres, their was some concern, from what i've read |
| 22:25.38 | mindjuju | as Chavez has received the votes required to make him pres for as long as needed to complete social programs people are asking for there |
| 22:26.21 | mindjuju | apparently though, several presidents from LA are going to try to fly back into Honduras with the ousted pres and see that he be reseated |
| 22:27.14 | mindjuju | my concern is, where is national sovereignty |
| 22:27.42 | beandog | what do you mean |
| 22:27.52 | stderr | the president of Honduras tried to disobey their constitution |
| 22:28.02 | beandog | it seems better, in principle, to have a congress calling the shots rather than one man, at least. |
| 22:28.13 | beandog | not that either situation is great, but hey, lesser of two evils and all. |
| 22:28.15 | stderr | what he's trying to do (get back in power) is a coup. Not the people who kicked him out. |
| 22:28.25 | mindjuju | k, hang on, i think we're on the same side |
| 22:28.47 | mindjuju | i'm saying, since the Honduras Congress and Supreme Court and Military are all working together |
| 22:28.52 | mindjuju | why are the other nations getting involved |
| 22:28.59 | stderr | their constitution specifically states that a president cannot serve more than one term. Their Supreme Court and attorney general both told him he could not run in the next election. |
| 22:29.00 | mindjuju | Those are the elected offices |
| 22:29.11 | stderr | mindjuju: because Chavez wants "his guy" in office |
| 22:29.31 | mindjuju | i see that for Chavez, but why the UN? |
| 22:29.44 | beandog | mindjuju, nations get involved because they have vested interests in the stability / political motives of their leaderships ... same reason as always |
| 22:29.52 | mindjuju | i know why |
| 22:29.55 | mindjuju | i'm asking where |
| 22:30.01 | mindjuju | well, and why on UN level |
| 22:30.02 | beandog | mindjuju, what do you mean |
| 22:30.28 | mindjuju | i guess i'm saying that i feel that the UN has largely overstepped its bounds on this |
| 22:30.37 | mindjuju | as the people of Honduras seem fine with the ousting |
| 22:30.38 | stderr | countries overstep their bounds all the time. |
| 22:30.46 | mindjuju | stderr - true |
| 22:30.47 | stderr | We invaded a country to kick a dictator out of power |
| 22:31.27 | stderr | the U.N. is just condemning it for political machinations *shrug* it's the U.N.. I don't really see it as an "overstepping of bounds" |
| 22:31.33 | stderr | they haven't deployed anyone there |
| 22:31.37 | beandog | Isn't the UN mostly powerless anyway? |
| 22:31.58 | mindjuju | well, actually stderr, there are going to be UN reps on the plane when the ousted Pres comes back |
| 22:32.05 | mindjuju | http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090630/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_honduras_coup |
| 22:32.26 | mindjuju | Zelaya vowed to return to Honduras on Thursday, escorted by the presidents of Argentina, Ecuador and the U.N. General Assembly, as well as the head of the OAS. He said he wants to serve out his term, then go back to being a farmer â a humble description considering the wealth he has accumulated in ranching and agribusiness. |
| 22:33.10 | mindjuju | this is funny |
| 22:33.11 | mindjuju | Micheletti's foreign minister, Enrique Ortez, threw a wild card onto the table, telling CNN en Espanol that Zelaya had been letting drug traffickers ship U.S.-bound cocaine from Venezuela through Honduras. Ortez said the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration was aware of Zelaya's ties to organized crime. |
| 22:33.12 | beandog | If thats what he wnated, why did he ask for more to start with |
| 22:33.36 | mindjuju | that's Zelaya own guy saying he's corrupt |
| 22:33.49 | stderr | mindjuju: that's not a deployment. |
| 22:33.52 | mindjuju | err, wait, i might have gotten that mixed up |
| 22:34.02 | stderr | that's his allies flying back with him, he's not at the front of a force or something. |
| 22:34.34 | mindjuju | no, true, i'm saying they shouldn't even be with them though |
| 22:35.20 | beandog | mindjuju, you lost me on your point / opinion totally. -_- |
| 22:35.34 | stderr | that seems pretty ridiculous. He's the leader of a country, why would he not be allowed to have anyone with him. |
| 22:35.38 | beandog | I dont see how the UN sticking its nose into things is any different than its past history |
| 22:35.41 | stderr | or, the ex-leader of a country, I should say. |
| 22:35.50 | mindjuju | well, beandog that's true |
| 22:35.56 | stderr | beandog: or anything different from any major international power |
| 22:36.05 | beandog | stderr, true. |
| 22:36.05 | mindjuju | that they have a history of it, that is, but that doesn't make it right |
| 22:36.06 | stderr | if you want meddling, take a look at the United States for the past 100 years. |
| 22:36.23 | beandog | stderr, gets me too depressed. |
| 22:36.34 | stderr | We've assassinated leaders, instituted dictators, and sold weapons to people who shouldn't have them. |
| 22:36.34 | mindjuju | stderr - really just talking about Honduras at this time, not the US |
| 22:37.00 | stderr | but you're balking at a guy with a couple of diplomatic envoys and political supporters as if that's some sort of conspiracy or a major U.N. move. It's not. |
| 22:37.27 | mindjuju | the people have spoken, they don't want him |
| 22:37.52 | beandog | mindjuju, so youre saying, its a matter of internal policy which has already resolved itself peacefully ... so why should the UN get involved |
| 22:37.53 | mindjuju | he is found to have been corrupt and wanting to overstay his presidency |
| 22:37.53 | stderr | right, but forcibly ejecting someone from the country with the military is a little ridiculous. |
| 22:37.53 | beandog | right? |
| 22:38.04 | mindjuju | beandog - yes |
| 22:38.10 | unum | stderr: we need to ban their black helipcopters from all of utah :P |
| 22:38.11 | beandog | stderr, at least it didnt get bloody |
| 22:38.26 | mindjuju | stderr - if that's the way they handle things, who are we to impose how we do our business? |
| 22:38.40 | beandog | heh |
| 22:38.43 | stderr | who's "we" ? |
| 22:38.46 | mindjuju | the US |
| 22:39.14 | stderr | Barack Obama condemned the ousting with the use of military, which I'm pretty sure is against American values. Of course he's going to speak up about it. Other than that, we haven't done anything. |
| 22:39.25 | stderr | Our military base locked themselves up tight and kept out of it |
| 22:39.30 | mindjuju | course though, the last time the US didn't like its government (when we were under England) we used our military to say it for us |
| 22:39.35 | mindjuju | so this isn't that uncommon |
| 22:40.18 | stderr | we had taxation without representation, not a wacko who was disobeying laws that are already set and I can only hope have some legal backing to them |
| 22:40.28 | stderr | we had absolutely no rights under England, it's not comparable. |
| 22:40.41 | mindjuju | heh, not that simple |
| 22:40.46 | mindjuju | the dude is a drug runner |
| 22:40.48 | mindjuju | there is proof |
| 22:40.57 | mindjuju | his people say he's corrupt |
| 22:41.03 | stderr | then why not use that proof against him in a court of law? |
| 22:41.04 | mindjuju | and he's trying to extend his power |
| 22:41.09 | stderr | they have a legal institution. |
| 22:41.23 | mindjuju | you're going to have to ask the Honduras Congress about that |
| 22:41.30 | mindjuju | i just said i wanted to understand it better |
| 22:41.31 | stderr | that's what Obama was complaining about. And it's his right to do so. Just like every other president in history has condemned similar actions they don't view as keeping with America's values. |
| 22:41.40 | mindjuju | you seem to know all about this, so why don't you tell us? |
| 22:42.19 | stderr | I know what Obama said and I know as much as you about the Honduras situation. You're saying the US is sticking it's nose where it doesn't belong. So the U.S. shouldn't make statements about anti-American stuff in other countries? |
| 22:42.33 | stderr | I mean, that's the only thing the US has done. I want you to defend your point. |
| 22:42.39 | stderr | should we have spoken up about Iran? |
| 22:42.41 | stderr | Iraq? |
| 22:42.43 | stderr | Russia? |
| 22:42.47 | mindjuju | Not when the people of Honduras have spoken |
| 22:42.50 | stderr | Going back, the U.S.S.R.? |
| 22:42.54 | beandog | personally I think the unrest in Iran was caused by the US |
| 22:42.57 | beandog | </tinfoil hat> |
| 22:43.23 | stderr | the Berlin Wall was felled with a whooooooooole lot of rhetoric from Reagan |
| 22:43.42 | beandog | utahcon, dont eat my popcorn while you're in there |
| 22:43.44 | mindjuju | stderr - the people DIDN'T want communism |
| 22:43.48 | mindjuju | not even remotely similar |
| 22:44.00 | mindjuju | these people spoke and said get that guy out |
| 22:44.04 | mindjuju | ans so the military did it |
| 22:44.10 | mindjuju | under the direction of congress and court |
| 22:44.15 | mindjuju | and they didn't take power unto themselves |
| 22:44.18 | mindjuju | and that says a lot |
| 22:44.24 | stderr | that's not how we do things in the U.S. Which is what Obama said. |
| 22:44.28 | stderr | whether or not the people want it |
| 22:44.31 | beandog | right |
| 22:44.34 | beandog | it would go through the courts |
| 22:44.37 | beandog | due process |
| 22:44.42 | mindjuju | k, and what does that mean? who cares how we do it in the US |
| 22:44.45 | beandog | its dangerous, setting a precedent like that |
| 22:44.47 | mindjuju | honduras ISN'T the us |
| 22:44.54 | beandog | regardless of country |
| 22:45.03 | stderr | mindjuju: Alright, so what about Ahmadinejad? |
| 22:45.05 | beandog | skirting the law to replace the president |
| 22:45.06 | stderr | he was elected |
| 22:45.13 | mindjuju | yeah |
| 22:45.22 | stderr | did you agree with the rhetoric Bush spouted all the time about him? |
| 22:45.34 | stderr | or McCain with his rhyme of "Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" ? |
| 22:45.42 | stderr | I'm just wondering where you draw the line. |
| 22:46.04 | *** join/#uphpu orsonj (n=orson@b22222.bookstore.usu.edu) |
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| 22:46.32 | mindjuju | if the peope in Iran want Ahmadinejad as president, then they have him as president |
| 22:46.41 | stderr | so we should say nothing about him? |
| 22:46.51 | stderr | just keep our mouths shut? |
| 22:46.53 | mindjuju | if Bush wants to drop bombs on Iran because of perceived actions on the part of Iran, then he does that |
| 22:47.09 | stderr | but he shouldn't mention him in the news at all? |
| 22:47.16 | beandog | bomb iran? that doesn't rhyme. |
| 22:47.17 | stderr | shouldn't at least throw some condemnations his way? |
| 22:47.24 | stderr | beandog: it was to a beach boys song |
| 22:47.26 | beandog | bomb-e-ran ... nope. |
| 22:47.32 | beandog | stderr, whot? |
| 22:47.46 | mindjuju | what's your point stderr |
| 22:47.48 | stderr | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-zoPgv_nYg |
| 22:48.41 | beandog | wow Im so glad he did not win. |
| 22:48.42 | stderr | mindjuju: I'm just wondering if we should condemn things that we see as un-American, and, essentially, un-Democratic. Ousting someone with the military is not democratic, whether or not people want it to happen. Democratic is more than just "WHAT THE PEOPLE WANT!". There's some moral obligation to a legal framework in there, too. |
| 22:49.01 | stderr | the legal framework is exactly there to prevent this sort of hive, kneejerk mindset. |
| 22:49.11 | stderr | and Obama condemned going outside that legal framework. |
| 22:49.34 | SunSparc | Kinda funny though. "Bomb Iran" instead of "Barbara Ann". |
| 22:50.29 | stderr | I'm just wondering where this sudden interest of keeping your nose to yourself came about after 8 years of Bush, I've never heard you complain of it before. |
| 22:50.39 | DexterTheDragon | probably |
| 22:50.44 | DexterTheDragon | whoops wrong window |
| 22:50.51 | stderr | and this rhetoric by Obama is pretty weaksauce when it comes to presidents condemning stuff. |
| 22:53.56 | beandog | wow. |
| 22:54.05 | beandog | flash video sucks for a/v sync. |
| 22:54.53 | beandog | that is all. |
| 22:55.11 | beandog | maybe my internet connection just sucks. |
| 22:55.16 | beandog | but I can't see how that would be possible. |
| 22:57.23 | SunSparc | beandog: http://speakeasy.net/speedtest/ |
| 22:57.53 | beandog | heh |
| 22:57.54 | beandog | my d/l speed is off the chart |
| 22:58.55 | beandog | looks fine |
| 22:58.56 | beandog | oh well. |
| 23:16.43 | SunSparc | Night allz!! |
| 23:21.32 | fungus | nice! |
| 23:21.33 | fungus | Download Speed: 64718 kbps (8089.8 KB/sec transfer rate) |
| 23:21.33 | fungus | Upload Speed: 13944 kbps (1743 KB/sec transfer rate) |
| 23:22.38 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v tierra] by ChanServ |
| 23:39.30 | mindjuju | stderr - sorry i had to leave so suddenly, the owner of the co. stepped into the office to call me into a quick meet |
| 23:40.09 | mindjuju | you bring up some very valid points, and I agree, there are some lines there were we should take action, and lines where we shouldn't |
| 23:40.27 | mindjuju | but as i say, I don't know enough about the whole situation to really say where those points are |
| 23:44.32 | itimber | out guys.... later |
| 23:44.36 | mindjuju | cya |
| 23:44.42 | itimber | cya |
