| 00:04.34 | *** part/#uphpu mgeary (n=mgeary@166.70.44.49) |
| 00:05.18 | *** join/#uphpu josephscott (n=josephsc@75-169-250-164.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 00:05.18 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v josephscott] by ChanServ |
| 00:37.05 | *** join/#uphpu josephscott (n=josephsc@75-169-250-164.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 00:37.05 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v josephscott] by ChanServ |
| 00:42.38 | *** join/#uphpu josephscott (n=josephsc@75-169-250-164.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 00:42.38 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v josephscott] by ChanServ |
| 01:05.51 | *** join/#uphpu justincarmony (n=justinca@c-98-202-44-233.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 01:05.51 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v justincarmony] by ChanServ |
| 02:04.11 | *** join/#uphpu justincarmony_ (n=justinca@c-98-202-44-233.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 02:31.59 | *** join/#uphpu justincarmony (n=justinca@c-98-202-44-233.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 02:31.59 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v justincarmony] by ChanServ |
| 02:40.28 | *** join/#uphpu mgeary (n=mgeary@69.169.142.45.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net) |
| 02:40.28 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v mgeary] by ChanServ |
| 03:21.54 | mgeary | any Mac users with launchd experience around? |
| 03:48.37 | justincarmony | nope, whats launchd? |
| 04:45.01 | *** join/#uphpu burnin_ (n=burnin@204-228-142-196.ip.xmission.com) |
| 04:49.45 | *** part/#uphpu mgeary (n=mgeary@69.169.142.45.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net) |
| 04:59.34 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v burnin] by ChanServ |
| 05:01.24 | *** join/#uphpu brasto (n=brasto@66-182-82-217.static.slcl007.digis.net) |
| 05:01.24 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v brasto] by ChanServ |
| 06:10.57 | *** join/#uphpu mrKrow (n=chad@dsl093-228-239.slc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 06:10.57 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v mrKrow] by ChanServ |
| 06:32.08 | *** join/#uphpu mrKrow (n=chad@dsl093-228-239.slc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 06:32.08 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v mrKrow] by ChanServ |
| 07:17.31 | *** join/#uphpu Guest35469 (n=Ben@94-224-14-189.access.telenet.be) |
| 07:19.36 | Guest35469 | hi there |
| 07:21.20 | Guest35469 | wanted to ask if some-one knows how I can stream a file from an ftp server directly to a browser |
| 07:43.45 | *** join/#uphpu mindjuju1 (n=mindjuju@76.8.222.130) |
| 09:09.54 | *** join/#uphpu mrKrow1 (n=chad@dsl093-228-239.slc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 13:45.22 | *** join/#uphpu redroy (n=redroy@66.60.105.178) |
| 13:46.08 | *** join/#uphpu utahcon (n=utahcon@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 14:20.21 | *** join/#uphpu josephscott (n=josephsc@75-169-250-164.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 14:20.21 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v josephscott] by ChanServ |
| 14:31.16 | utahcon | wow... Sundance Institute is a bunch of cheapos... |
| 14:31.39 | utahcon | they want a jack of all trades web coordinator (sys admin, web developer, marketer) for $30K/yr |
| 14:37.42 | utahcon | maybe I missed this one but has Mozy always been a EMC company? |
| 14:51.36 | *** join/#uphpu justincarmony (n=justinca@c-98-202-44-233.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 14:51.36 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v justincarmony] by ChanServ |
| 14:58.37 | herlo | no |
| 14:58.53 | herlo | they were purchased sometime in 2007 or early 2008 |
| 14:58.56 | herlo | iirc |
| 15:01.38 | justincarmony | Hey, any word on the lunch this week, or are we going to do it another time? |
| 15:02.55 | *** join/#uphpu cro (n=cro@166-70-222-105.ip.xmission.com) |
| 15:05.48 | herlo | justincarmony: give me a theme and I'll get it announced today |
| 15:06.06 | herlo | I have about 5 million things going on since we launched Call for Papers |
| 15:06.36 | justincarmony | yeah, I can image you are suuuuuuuuuuuper busy |
| 15:06.56 | herlo | :) |
| 15:07.08 | herlo | prepping for my son's arrival here is another thing... |
| 15:07.17 | herlo | a new-ish job |
| 15:07.28 | *** join/#uphpu Lonnie (n=olsonl@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 15:07.52 | herlo | and helping get the bugs knocked out for cfp |
| 15:09.13 | herlo | so I guess I'm *kinda* busy :) |
| 15:18.02 | *** join/#uphpu SunSparc (n=sparky@173-8-91-177-Utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 15:18.02 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v SunSparc] by ChanServ |
| 15:18.26 | *** join/#uphpu cro1 (n=cro@166-70-222-105.ip.xmission.com) |
| 15:18.48 | justincarmony | Well, anyone else have any suggestions for the theme this month? Or are we all good if I just make it "Menudo"? ;D |
| 15:20.08 | *** join/#uphpu thebigdog (n=thebigdo@dsl093-228-015.slc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 15:20.08 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o thebigdog] by ChanServ |
| 15:25.15 | *** join/#uphpu cro (n=cro@166-70-222-105.ip.xmission.com) |
| 15:35.45 | herlo | heh |
| 15:51.21 | *** join/#uphpu _psychic_ (n=_psychic@173-8-91-177-Utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 15:51.21 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v _psychic_] by ChanServ |
| 15:58.49 | *** join/#uphpu mrKrow (n=chad@dsl093-228-239.slc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 15:58.49 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v mrKrow] by ChanServ |
| 16:00.26 | DexterTheDragon | ~tuesday |
| 16:00.26 | ibot | Tuesday sucks, because it follows Monday (see monday). |
| 16:00.33 | DexterTheDragon | ~rlart |
| 16:00.33 | ibot | installs a bad bootloader on redroy and turns redroy into a brick |
| 16:01.20 | redroy | what the junk? |
| 16:14.38 | *** join/#uphpu carmony (n=justin@97-117-94-201.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 16:14.39 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v carmony] by ChanServ |
| 16:16.16 | redroy | ~rlart |
| 16:16.16 | ibot | duct-tapes stderr to the floor and drools on him |
| 16:16.24 | redroy | lol |
| 16:20.50 | utahcon | lol |
| 16:20.58 | utahcon | creepy. |
| 16:21.58 | DexterTheDragon | ~lart utahcon |
| 16:21.58 | ibot | explains, ever so gently, that if utahcon doesn't give the channel more information, they can't help |
| 16:22.46 | utahcon | does ibot timebomb? |
| 16:22.53 | utahcon | ~timebomb DexterTheDragon |
| 16:22.59 | utahcon | would appear not. |
| 16:28.43 | *** join/#uphpu mgeary (n=mgeary@166.70.44.49) |
| 16:28.43 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v mgeary] by ChanServ |
| 16:34.47 | *** join/#uphpu Lonnie (n=olsonl@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 16:41.30 | *** join/#uphpu Lone_Wanderer (n=Dan@c-67-169-246-153.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 16:41.30 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v Lone_Wanderer] by ChanServ |
| 16:42.15 | mgeary | ~yow |
| 16:43.52 | Lonnie | ~ie-- |
| 16:52.04 | *** join/#uphpu Lonnie (n=olsonl@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 17:22.31 | DexterTheDragon | utahcon: you see http://gizmodo.com/5299161/t+mobile-mytouch-3g-gets-official-preorders-start-july-8 |
| 17:22.43 | utahcon | yeah |
| 17:23.08 | DexterTheDragon | I'm hoping tmobile has 3G out here for it |
| 17:23.14 | utahcon | not yet |
| 17:23.27 | utahcon | SLC is supposed to happen sometime this summer... as late as September. |
| 17:24.39 | Lonnie | it's really pretty |
| 17:28.18 | utahcon | Lonnie: 3g is pretty? |
| 17:28.44 | Lonnie | the phone |
| 17:28.58 | Lonnie | well, 3g is pretty too, i guess. |
| 17:29.34 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o fungus] by ChanServ |
| 17:31.44 | mindjuju1 | ugh, i might have to evacuate my office |
| 17:31.50 | mgeary | why? |
| 17:32.04 | mindjuju1 | somebody in the sales pit was eating an egg sandwich and has tooted and it is wafting |
| 17:32.14 | mindjuju1 | i'm literally like 100 feet away and its bad |
| 17:32.33 | mindjuju1 | it's the same guy who eat the tuna sandwich that inspired |
| 17:32.38 | mindjuju1 | ~tunafart macnewbold |
| 17:32.51 | mindjuju1 | ibot, are you there |
| 17:33.54 | mindjuju1 | ~apb herlo |
| 17:34.22 | herlo | mindjuju1: hi |
| 17:34.31 | utahcon | mindjuju1: if that doesn't clear out by 7 what will we do? |
| 17:34.34 | mindjuju1 | is olpc today? |
| 17:34.40 | herlo | mindjuju1: no, thurs |
| 17:34.41 | mindjuju1 | open the door to vent |
| 17:34.48 | herlo | mindjuju1: lol |
| 17:34.51 | herlo | nice smell |
| 17:34.54 | mindjuju1 | oops, yeah, that's what i meant, was wondering if this thursday |
| 17:35.16 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o mindjuju] by ChanServ |
| 17:35.27 | herlo | mindjuju: I'll only be able to be there for the first hour. My son is flying in at 9pm and I have to be there by around 8 |
| 17:35.39 | herlo | so I'll be there from 7-7:45 or so... gonna email that out soon |
| 17:36.05 | mindjuju | gotcha, we've got a conference on that day, so we won't be in the typical room |
| 17:36.15 | mindjuju | but it'll work, i have another room to put everybody |
| 17:36.31 | mindjuju | especially if it is the same busy / boisterous crwod as last time |
| 17:36.51 | herlo | mindjuju: we can cancel it |
| 17:37.04 | herlo | it's no biggie either way |
| 17:37.19 | mindjuju | you're call |
| 17:37.34 | herlo | let me stew on it today and I'll announce one way or the other, that work? |
| 17:37.40 | mindjuju | sounds good |
| 17:38.03 | mindjuju | about geek lunch on Friday, this conference from Thursday goes all the way till saturday afternoon ...sigh... |
| 17:38.17 | mindjuju | let's still do it, but i won't be able to be in orem |
| 17:38.33 | mindjuju | though maybe steve could represent UTOS down there? |
| 17:43.05 | herlo | or we could just do one in SL or Ogden. Since carmony seems to be pretty interested |
| 17:43.08 | herlo | off to lunch |
| 17:44.52 | mindjuju | carmony |
| 17:44.58 | mindjuju | yo |
| 17:45.07 | mindjuju | let's see, who else is up there |
| 17:45.22 | mindjuju | tierra, you're up in the ogden / layton area aren't you |
| 17:45.34 | tierra | bountiful |
| 17:45.44 | mindjuju | you up for geek lunch on Friday |
| 17:45.50 | mindjuju | theme italian |
| 17:46.10 | tierra | hmm |
| 17:46.26 | tierra | maybe as long as it's no farther north than layton |
| 17:46.59 | mindjuju | funny you say that, was just going to ask what restaurant up there you'd recommend, start to get some nominations, etc |
| 17:47.31 | cro | There's an Olive Garden just off the Antelope Exit |
| 17:47.34 | cro | Cheap lunch specials |
| 17:47.53 | cro | actually it's closer to Hill Field Road |
| 17:48.12 | mindjuju | that sounds pretty good |
| 17:48.16 | tierra | eco: what do you think? |
| 17:48.45 | *** join/#uphpu mrKrow (n=chad@office.codegreene.com) |
| 17:48.45 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v mrKrow] by ChanServ |
| 17:50.28 | eco | tierra: We can drive separately. |
| 17:51.16 | tierra | cro: olive garden next to Layton Hills Mall |
| 17:51.17 | tierra | ? |
| 17:51.42 | cro | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:52.30 | tierra | umm, sure, I'm down |
| 17:54.30 | stderr | olive garden? ew |
| 17:54.32 | cro | no big deal for me :-) anyone know of a better Italian place? I haven't tried out any up here yet. |
| 17:54.55 | mgeary | La Dolce Vita has awesome italian |
| 17:54.57 | mgeary | but it's in Provo |
| 17:55.54 | mindjuju | mgeary, would you guys go if there was one in Provo / Orem? |
| 17:56.05 | mgeary | i would |
| 17:57.07 | mindjuju | la dolce vida sounds like a good place, let me see if i can build consensus around it |
| 17:57.33 | tierra | has anyone been to any of Ligori's, Rovali's, Bellini's in Layton? |
| 17:57.46 | tierra | weird that all 3 are on Hill Field Rd |
| 17:58.59 | tierra | I'd really rather do Fazoli's or Gandolfo's over Olive Garden... |
| 17:59.51 | cro | Actually Bellini's is on the 193 |
| 18:00.05 | cro | Google maps labels the 193 incorrectly |
| 18:00.09 | *** join/#uphpu beandog (n=steve@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 18:00.09 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v beandog] by ChanServ |
| 18:00.09 | tierra | 193 == Hill Field afaict |
| 18:00.14 | tierra | hmm |
| 18:00.15 | cro | really? |
| 18:00.25 | tierra | google maps labels it both |
| 18:00.28 | cro | right |
| 18:01.54 | tierra | anyway, you've been to Bellini's then? is it any good? |
| 18:02.19 | cro | no, I just saw it up there on the 192. |
| 18:02.23 | cro | 193 I mean |
| 18:02.39 | cro | I'm asking a few of my friends up here to see if they have first hand experience |
| 18:37.59 | carmony | I've been to Ligori's, but its been a LONG time (like 5 years) |
| 18:39.24 | utahcon | http://us2.php.net/goto |
| 18:39.55 | utahcon | first: why the heck are they adding "goto"? secondly... xkcd on php.net :D |
| 18:46.01 | stderr | I may have had something to do with that |
| 18:46.07 | carmony | LOL, I read a good article about goto in PHP |
| 18:46.17 | beandog | goto C++ |
| 18:46.19 | SunSparc | Hah! |
| 18:46.50 | carmony | There are certain things that goto logic make much easier to develop than traditional switches, ifs, etc. |
| 18:46.57 | carmony | One I've heard is a parsing engine |
| 18:47.11 | carmony | Most regex libraries are coded using gotos |
| 18:50.48 | stderr | bull. People only say that because apps like yacc generate state transition loops and the like utilizing goto. It's much better to avoid goto when handcoding parsers. |
| 19:12.14 | *** join/#uphpu mgeary_ (n=mgeary@166.70.44.49) |
| 19:12.17 | fungus | goto enables flawed logic |
| 19:12.48 | fungus | perfect for the stereotypical php programmer |
| 19:13.10 | beandog | heh |
| 19:19.38 | stderr | one of the few valid arguments for goto in such a specialized, high-level language is error handling |
| 19:20.05 | stderr | GUESS WHAT?! YOU GUYS ALREADY GOT EXCEPTIONS! BUT THE PHP DEVS LEFT THEM OUT OF _EVERY SINGLE CORE LIBRARY_ |
| 19:21.27 | stderr | Being a PHP developer is like being a woman who's married to a really busy businessman who has promised since the wedding to take you to Disneyland |
| 19:21.40 | stderr | and on your 20th anniversary, he gives you one ticket and says "Have a nice time!" |
| 19:21.57 | stderr | then goes into your shared master bathroom and blows his brains out |
| 19:22.34 | _psychic_ | And then you build most of the internet with the toys at Disneyland. |
| 19:22.38 | _psychic_ | Twice. |
| 19:22.52 | stderr | Yea, the Egyptians used slaves to build the Pyramids, doesn't make it right. |
| 19:23.12 | _psychic_ | Yeah, using PHP is *morally* reprehensible. |
| 19:24.08 | stderr | it certainly is! |
| 19:24.10 | fungus | I disagree, you can use PHP properly, it's just really really easy to abuse it. |
| 19:24.27 | _psychic_ | heh |
| 19:24.29 | stderr | yea, nobody is saying PHP isn't usable. 90% of "most of the internet" is garbage anyway |
| 19:24.48 | stderr | a good programmer can write good code in any language. It's just a shame PHP keeps stomping on your toes |
| 19:25.47 | _psychic_ | No disagreements there. |
| 19:26.34 | stderr | and the argument that "hurrr, the internet is mostly PHP" is 1) lies, and 2) inconsequential. |
| 19:26.49 | fungus | I think if mod_python was as simple to deploy for shared hosting environments, it might be the defacto web app programming language |
| 19:28.29 | fungus | mod_php came to hosting providers at a time when mod_cgi ruled the world. It seemed as if a godsend. |
| 19:28.52 | _psychic_ | hurrrr, we shoulda went with betamax and DC transmission lines and HD DVD |
| 19:30.03 | stderr | well PHP did a number on every other language because people immediately assume "web programming" means that you have executable pseudo-template files in every language. |
| 19:31.55 | fungus | Yes, and it enabled stupid frontpage/dreamweaver type users to learn to program. And their hosting provider supported it. |
| 19:33.12 | fungus | However in defense of PHP, that action of lowering the bar to web development has created a lot of good stuff. |
| 19:33.14 | stderr | it's pretty interesting. The new generation of programmers, many of whom were raised on PHP, have quite a mountain to climb to shed the numerous problems that the PHP mindset instills |
| 19:33.41 | _psychic_ | heh |
| 19:34.32 | _psychic_ | You know, it's funny, because it was the Java devs saying that 10 years ago. |
| 19:35.04 | stderr | Java devs saying what? I was around 10 years ago too |
| 19:35.09 | stderr | Let's hear it. |
| 19:35.46 | _psychic_ | Oh well it's easy to see that PHP, with it's inherent OOP achilles tendonitis couldn't ever approach an *enterprise* level solution like Java. |
| 19:36.00 | stderr | Java saying bad things about PHP? 10 years ago, I doubt you could find many Java programmers who even knew what PHP was |
| 19:36.00 | fungus | Java devs... lol, they have been relegated to corporate applications. |
| 19:36.09 | _psychic_ | exactly. |
| 19:36.42 | stderr | Noone is saying that PHP can't be a solution, _psychic_. |
| 19:36.47 | stderr | PHP programmers get so defensive. |
| 19:37.18 | _psychic_ | 'just sayin. |
| 19:37.21 | stderr | PHP _is_ broken. There are _numerous_ problems with PHP. If most PHP programmers took the time to recognize them, PHP would probably get exponentially better. |
| 19:37.41 | fungus | I disagree |
| 19:37.44 | stderr | but, no, I guess PHP is just good as it is, huh? |
| 19:37.56 | fungus | If PHP programmers took the time to recognize them, they would probably stop using it. |
| 19:38.09 | stderr | fungus: well that has been what's happening |
| 19:38.18 | stderr | thus Rails and Django, amongst many others |
| 19:38.20 | fungus | that's pretty much what happened to me. |
| 19:38.46 | stderr | I can expound for hours on the problems I have with Python, and I certainly don't take it personally when someone raises a legitimate point about Pyhton. |
| 19:38.47 | _psychic_ | Oh yeah - I totally didn't even notice the flaws in the language. After using goto for all this time - thinking I was on the leading edge, I've ironically been dwelling in the past. |
| 19:38.54 | _psychic_ | If only I'd seen it coming! |
| 19:39.01 | stderr | de-fens-ive |
| 19:39.09 | _psychic_ | So says you |
| 19:39.22 | stderr | Indeed I do |
| 19:39.34 | SunSparc | lol |
| 19:39.43 | stderr | it's like I'm pointing out flaws in your wife, or something. Crikey |
| 19:40.08 | _psychic_ | Not really - can't take a little hit to your elitism, so you call me defensive. |
| 19:40.23 | _psychic_ | I haven't programmed in PHP for more than an hour at a time in months. |
| 19:40.23 | stderr | a little hit to my elitism? All you've said is that OMGZ PEOPLE USE PHP |
| 19:40.26 | stderr | I agree. |
| 19:40.29 | stderr | People do use PHP |
| 19:40.37 | stderr | which is why it's astounding it hasn't seen any marked improvements. |
| 19:40.52 | stderr | what exactly was your attack on my elitism, again? |
| 19:40.57 | _psychic_ | Hey we just got exceptions and unicode, dude. |
| 19:41.11 | stderr | exceptions that _weren't integrated in core_ |
| 19:41.26 | fungus | but it's a step... |
| 19:41.29 | stderr | yea, good implementation. Just pile it on top. Nah, I don't need any rope, it won't fall off. I'll hold it on with MY HAND |
| 19:42.18 | stderr | fungus: I agree, it's a step. But I think implementing exceptions - THAT AREN'T USED BY THE LANGUAGE ITSELF - is pretty ridiculous. Save the time when you can implement them fully. |
| 19:42.31 | stderr | Although if PHP, in 6, integrated them into core, I'd be pretty stoked for PHP programmers. |
| 19:42.50 | _psychic_ | I suppose I'm more curious what all the ranting is about. |
| 19:43.15 | _psychic_ | OH NOES NO EXCEPSHUNS USE RUBY |
| 19:43.39 | _psychic_ | It works, so I use it. |
| 19:44.04 | _psychic_ | It's fast, has a monster community, and a long track record. |
| 19:45.20 | _psychic_ | And it irks the elitists that it does so much with so little. ;) |
| 19:45.45 | stderr | haha, it doesn't irk me at all |
| 19:45.57 | stderr | I want PHP to improve so that all the PHP job offers I get I can, you know, actually take them. |
| 19:46.05 | stderr | so I can* |
| 19:46.29 | fungus | stderr's elitist armor is so thick nothing could possibly penetrate it to irk him. |
| 19:46.32 | _psychic_ | heh |
| 19:46.53 | stderr | why would I be irked because PHP sucks? It makes absolutely no sense. |
| 19:47.03 | _psychic_ | right. |
| 19:47.25 | _psychic_ | you definitely wouldn't be in a php channel ranting about it on the off chance it did. |
| 19:47.55 | stderr | I've been in #uphpu for almost 5 years, I rant about everything, I don't think that's a surprise. |
| 19:48.06 | stderr | You just take it extremely personally when I rant about PHP. Every time. |
| 19:48.12 | _psychic_ | Well, I just like to argue. |
| 19:48.33 | stderr | yea, you had a great argument: people use PHP. We know. |
| 19:48.44 | stderr | the thing is, if PHP got better, it would make my life a whooooole lot easier |
| 19:48.48 | stderr | so I'm doing nothing but rooting for them |
| 19:49.03 | stderr | And calling out people who's defense is "HEY I USE PHP AND SO DO PEOPLE I KNOW" |
| 19:49.14 | stderr | because you're the types who won't let PHP evolve into something better. |
| 19:49.32 | SunSparc | ~ie-- |
| 19:49.34 | _psychic_ | Yeah, I hold it back because I'm defensive about it. |
| 19:49.37 | stderr | I have to maintain 10~ PHP projects, TRUST ME, I want it to be better. |
| 19:49.47 | stderr | dear lord do I want it to be better. |
| 19:50.15 | _psychic_ | The argument isn't "people use it." |
| 19:50.45 | _psychic_ | Your argument is that it's a broken tool. If someone makes a 400 passenger airliner with it, it works well enough. |
| 19:50.46 | stderr | for every good example of PHP usage, how many bad examples do you think I can pull out of my arse? |
| 19:50.50 | stderr | 20? 30? 40? |
| 19:51.22 | _psychic_ | Oh, so if I use Python to create a crappy app, then Python is crappy. Got it. :) |
| 19:51.25 | stderr | probably more. Just because there's a good product doesn't mean it could be made easier, faster, and more reliable in something else. |
| 19:51.38 | _psychic_ | No one is saying we should leave it as it is. |
| 19:51.59 | stderr | no, you're saying that because someone made something good out of it, that it can't be _that_ bad |
| 19:52.13 | stderr | The end result of a project has little to do with how much effort the language cost you to get it deployed |
| 19:52.31 | stderr | I'm just saying that PHP costs programmers more. It's harder to work with and it's broken in a lot of ways, so people have to work around that. |
| 19:52.35 | beandog | did I miss another language war? |
| 19:52.38 | stderr | I trust _people_ |
| 19:52.41 | stderr | I just don't trust PHP |
| 19:53.02 | SunSparc | beandog: pull up a chair, it is still going |
| 19:53.18 | SunSparc | lolz |
| 19:53.18 | _php_ | stderr: I just want you back baby |
| 19:53.19 | fungus | list 4 lyfe |
| 19:53.21 | stderr | A good programmer will write good code regardless, it's about the _effort to write that good code_ |
| 19:53.27 | fungus | s/t/p/ |
| 19:53.35 | _php_ | I ain't got much, but you gotta give me another chance |
| 19:53.47 | stderr | _php_: you just screwed me yesterday, what're you talking about? |
| 19:53.56 | stderr | *rimshot* |
| 19:55.01 | fungus | functional programming is the only good way. Everything else sucks |
| 19:55.15 | stderr | I'll just say compare #uphpu to 4 years ago when I was the only one who used Python, and nowadays. |
| 19:56.01 | _psychic_ | Don't hate me. I'm playing. Mostly. |
| 19:56.07 | stderr | (that involves really crappy Python code, btw) |
| 19:58.09 | beandog | man that was a long read |
| 19:58.17 | SunSparc | ~lart crappy code |
| 19:58.17 | ibot | beats crappy code into protomatter with the andromeda galaxy |
| 19:58.26 | SunSparc | beandog: It was a fun read though |
| 19:59.26 | beandog | the real question is ... |
| 19:59.29 | beandog | stderr, whats your language of choice |
| 19:59.44 | beandog | for web development |
| 19:59.50 | *** join/#uphpu josephscott (n=josephsc@75-169-250-164.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 19:59.50 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v josephscott] by ChanServ |
| 19:59.59 | SunSparc | fortan |
| 20:00.01 | stderr | Python, mostly, although Camping with Ruby is always fun. |
| 20:00.03 | SunSparc | +r |
| 20:00.22 | beandog | SunSparc, what about Turbo Pascal |
| 20:00.27 | beandog | thats Turbo with a T |
| 20:00.43 | SunSparc | beandog: Oooh, yeah, Turbo Pascal was fun. |
| 20:00.54 | SunSparc | For a semester |
| 20:00.56 | SunSparc | :) |
| 20:01.49 | beandog | python syntax bugs me. |
| 20:02.04 | beandog | seems like a nice language, though. Im surprised its not more popular. |
| 20:02.15 | stderr | it's pretty damn popular... |
| 20:02.25 | _psychic_ | the whitespace was a bother at first, too. |
| 20:02.27 | beandog | stderr, right, I didn't say it was *un* popular. |
| 20:02.41 | beandog | Im just surprised it doesnt have *much more* penetration. |
| 20:03.14 | fungus | heh, it was the whitespace that got me interested at first. |
| 20:03.15 | stderr | in web dev, you mean? |
| 20:03.21 | beandog | stderr, in general |
| 20:03.33 | beandog | I dont see many apps written in it, compared to other languages |
| 20:03.39 | stderr | well in general it has more penetration than any other interpreted languages |
| 20:03.48 | beandog | Hmm. That's definitely true. |
| 20:04.02 | stderr | -s |
| 20:04.20 | utahcon | python (like any language) has it's strong points and drawbacks |
| 20:04.24 | utahcon | was just discussing that at lunch |
| 20:04.37 | stderr | utahcon: what drawbacks were you discussing? |
| 20:04.49 | utahcon | nothing in particular |
| 20:04.58 | utahcon | but the whitespace/indenting was mentioned |
| 20:05.21 | utahcon | also we complained about the terminology for lists, dictionaries, tuples etc. |
| 20:05.30 | utahcon | the base of comparison was in reference to PHP |
| 20:05.37 | utahcon | where all of those are just Arrays :D |
| 20:05.39 | stderr | well that's because in PHP they're broken. |
| 20:05.51 | stderr | Those data structures are pretty elementary in name and function in Computer Science. |
| 20:05.53 | utahcon | well I prefer them broken :d |
| 20:07.13 | _psychic_ | Dunno if they're broken, but they're abused and not used as real data structures very often. |
| 20:08.06 | fungus | even perl separates hashes from arrays. even though you have to fight with the right sigils to get 'em to work right. |
| 20:08.35 | stderr | well, true, _psychic_, but combining an ordered list and a hash data structure just seems irrevocably broken to me. |
| 20:09.03 | stderr | (beyond a derived data structure like a... ordered hash, which probably shouldn't be a base data structure to begin with) |
| 20:09.08 | _psychic_ | it can't be as fast as it could be |
| 20:09.51 | stderr | well I don't care (too much) about speed implications at that sort of level in a language like PHP. I just think it teaches bad habits and makes people think the wrong way. |
| 20:11.25 | beandog | I would definitely agree with the bad habits thing ... but that's going to be a side-effect of any high-level language / application |
| 20:11.43 | beandog | well, maybe they dont have to be related. I dunno. |
| 20:12.22 | stderr | man fish tacos from Jim Boys++ |
| 20:12.57 | SunSparc | stderr: Surprisingly, Del Taco actually has some good fish tacos. |
| 20:13.08 | stderr | SunSparc: never had em |
| 20:13.20 | SunSparc | Not too shabby for take out. |
| 20:14.47 | stderr | I'm on a primarily fish diet, I'll have to try em out |
| 20:20.21 | SunSparc | Watch out, fish have mercury in them. ;) |
| 20:20.59 | stderr | well ask me what the temperature is in an hour |
| 20:21.16 | SunSparc | What is the temperature in an hour? |
| 20:21.27 | beandog | lol |
| 20:21.34 | beandog | ~nerds |
| 20:21.34 | ibot | it has been said that nerds is losers with no lives, unlike geeks. |
| 20:21.40 | SunSparc | stderr: That could be your super power |
| 20:21.53 | DexterTheDragon | ~geeks |
| 20:21.53 | ibot | it has been said that geeks is an excellent book by John Katz. |
| 20:22.02 | beandog | ~book |
| 20:22.02 | ibot | [~book] Asterisk: The Future of Telephony 2nd Edition (ISBN 0-596-51048-9) --- Order yours at http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596510480/ --- Free downloadable PDF at http://www.asteriskdocs.org --- HTML at http://astbook.asteriskdocs.org or see ~buybook |
| 20:22.03 | fungus | at now + 1 hour |
| 20:22.07 | beandog | ~books |
| 20:22.12 | DexterTheDragon | ~geek |
| 20:22.12 | ibot | [geek] a person who you make fun of in high school, then work for when you're older |
| 20:22.24 | beandog | heh |
| 20:22.45 | _psychic_ | you see John Hodgman's address in front of the president? |
| 20:23.00 | beandog | that guy is creepy |
| 20:23.36 | DexterTheDragon | _psychic_: that was awesome |
| 20:26.10 | _psychic_ | some people thought he was slamming obama |
| 20:26.10 | _psychic_ | I thought it was awesome |
| 20:26.11 | _psychic_ | (too) |
| 20:27.24 | stderr | really? people thought he was slamming Obama? |
| 20:28.48 | _psychic_ | Well, based on some YouTube comments. You probably shouldn't base much of anything off of YouTube comments. |
| 20:29.09 | *** join/#uphpu Utah_Dave (n=David@190.81.36.67) |
| 20:29.09 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o Utah_Dave] by ChanServ |
| 20:29.35 | fungus | YouTube comments < Slashdot comments < humans |
| 20:29.56 | beandog | really? |
| 20:29.59 | beandog | youtube < slashdot? |
| 20:30.07 | beandog | I knew slashdot is pretty low on the pole |
| 20:30.09 | stderr | Yea, uh, I really didn't know how bad YouTube comments were until I started reading some of the hate in the Neda videos |
| 20:30.15 | beandog | but I didnt imagine youtube was that low. |
| 20:30.33 | fungus | oh yeah, youtube comments are horrendous |
| 20:30.35 | SunSparc | YouTube comments are bad |
| 20:30.47 | beandog | The only reason to read slashdot is for the comments, though |
| 20:31.06 | beandog | since the articles are always ... well, its slashdot. |
| 20:31.23 | stderr | reddit.com comments++ |
| 20:31.35 | beandog | it's like teen girl squad meets the IT department |
| 20:31.43 | stderr | http://www.reddit.com/user/obligatory_mom_joke |
| 20:32.14 | stderr | aw, the guy started leaving normal comments. What a loser. |
| 20:35.13 | beandog | http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090623/REVIEWS/906239997 |
| 20:35.15 | beandog | LOL |
| 20:35.18 | beandog | opening paragraph++ |
| 20:35.36 | beandog | Man, I was gonna avoid Transformers anyway ... the first one left me brain dead enough, but now. sheesh. |
| 20:36.07 | beandog | Michael Bay is going downhill fast. |
| 20:36.49 | DexterTheDragon | "This isn't a film so much as a toy tie-in." |
| 20:37.32 | stderr | as if Michael Bay started from the top of a mountain or something... |
| 20:37.35 | beandog | "I find it amusing that creatures that can unfold out of a Camaro and stand four stories high do most of their fighting with...fists" |
| 20:40.30 | fungus | ~ebert++ |
| 20:40.38 | DexterTheDragon | ~ie-- |
| 20:40.41 | *** join/#uphpu orsonj (n=orson@b22222.bookstore.usu.edu) |
| 20:40.41 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v orsonj] by ChanServ |
| 20:41.55 | beandog | that was great. |
| 20:47.11 | *** join/#uphpu SunSparc (n=sparky@173-8-91-177-Utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 20:47.34 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v SunSparc] by ChanServ |
| 21:01.33 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v mgeary] by ChanServ |
| 21:02.52 | *** join/#uphpu justincarmony (n=justinca@97-117-94-201.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 21:02.52 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v justincarmony] by ChanServ |
| 21:03.18 | SunSparc | mgeary: You wild and crazy geek you |
| 21:15.13 | *** join/#uphpu justincarmony_ (n=justinca@97-117-94-201.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 21:20.47 | beandog | ah |
| 21:20.54 | beandog | I really wish mysql had a boolean type. |
| 21:20.55 | beandog | :T |
| 21:20.58 | beandog | a real one. |
| 21:21.03 | beandog | really. |
| 21:21.18 | beandog | WHERE foo = TRUE; |
| 21:21.20 | beandog | ahh, beautiful. |
| 21:21.25 | beandog | postgres++ |
| 21:21.38 | beandog | oh well. |
| 21:26.17 | fungus | beandog: ENUM( 'TRUE', 'FALSE' ) |
| 21:27.47 | beandog | fungus, no likey |
| 21:27.50 | beandog | it's just a string. |
| 21:28.03 | fungus | But it only stores a bit |
| 21:28.06 | beandog | true. |
| 21:28.14 | fungus | WHERE foo = 'TRUE' |
| 21:28.19 | beandog | but I like how you can do stuff like where foo; |
| 21:28.21 | DexterTheDragon | might as well just use the tinyint(1) |
| 21:28.21 | beandog | etc. |
| 21:28.27 | beandog | yah |
| 21:28.33 | beandog | I know what I can use. |
| 21:28.34 | fungus | or bit(1) |
| 21:28.36 | beandog | but its not a real boolean. |
| 21:28.39 | beandog | :( |
| 21:29.06 | beandog | and you actually can do where foo w/tinyint, I know. :) |
| 21:29.26 | beandog | I guess I just like typing out = true / false |
| 21:29.36 | fungus | Then use the ENUM |
| 21:29.39 | beandog | seems like more correct syntax |
| 21:30.39 | beandog | fungus, isnt bit just a shortcut to tinyint(1) |
| 21:30.58 | fungus | I don't really know for sure. |
| 21:31.24 | fungus | no, bit is used for bit fields |
| 21:31.34 | fungus | gives access to bitwise operations |
| 21:32.08 | beandog | Hmm |
| 21:32.10 | beandog | Interesting |
| 21:32.15 | beandog | That actually forces it to 1 or 0 |
| 21:32.36 | beandog | well, anything non 1 or 0 becomes 0 |
| 21:33.02 | beandog | weird. |
| 21:33.39 | fungus | ooh, interesting INT(4) is the same as INT(16) in terms of storage and allowed values |
| 21:33.53 | fungus | it's just a display width |
| 21:33.58 | DexterTheDragon | yep |
| 21:34.00 | beandog | man ... this bit column is *weird* |
| 21:34.12 | beandog | you can't pull out the values using select |
| 21:34.17 | beandog | the column is just empty |
| 21:34.25 | beandog | but the where clause still works |
| 21:34.33 | fungus | You can put in 127 into a tinyint(1) column then. |
| 21:34.37 | fungus | that sounds bad |
| 21:34.46 | fungus | if you are using it for a bool col |
| 21:34.54 | eggyknap | I'm not sure about MySQL specifically, but I wouldn't expect bit(1) to take much less storage space than a tinyint, for byte alignment reasons |
| 21:34.54 | beandog | fungus, I hate that it even lets you set the length on integers. |
| 21:36.06 | beandog | fungus, check this out: |
| 21:36.07 | beandog | http://pastebin.com/m3d5352c6 |
| 21:36.19 | beandog | that collapsed space shows up in the shell, it's not a pastebin error. |
| 21:36.23 | DexterTheDragon | I've used the interger lengths before |
| 21:36.41 | beandog | How the heck are you supposed to know whats in there. o.O |
| 21:36.53 | fungus | Hrm, it must be outputting the binary bits directly |
| 21:37.28 | beandog | I think I'll stick to tinyint. |
| 21:37.52 | SunSparc | beandog: just do everything as 'text' |
| 21:38.00 | stderr | nah, blobs! |
| 21:38.08 | SunSparc | lolz! Even better |
| 21:38.09 | beandog | SunSparc, heh |
| 21:38.12 | beandog | plenty of room. |
| 21:38.19 | fungus | beandog: http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/bit-functions.html |
| 21:38.37 | beandog | http://www.xaprb.com/blog/2006/04/11/bit-values-in-mysql/ |
| 21:38.55 | fungus | oops |
| 21:39.40 | stderr | HAHA. http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=63426 |
| 21:39.46 | stderr | damn that libural media, hurr! |
| 21:41.40 | SunSparc | stderr: That kind of crap infuriates me. |
| 21:43.17 | stderr | SunSparc: well it certainly should. |
| 21:43.47 | SunSparc | Too bad most people will ever hear about it and if they do they will not understand it. |
| 21:47.41 | stderr | I'm reading The War Within, fascinating stuff. |
| 21:48.13 | SunSparc | _psychic_: That ZendAMF that you installed in TMG, is that portable? I mean, it does not require anything in Apache like the amfext module, correct? |
| 21:49.33 | beandog | #1293 - Incorrect table definition; there can be only one TIMESTAMP column with CURRENT_TIMESTAMP in DEFAULT or ON UPDATE clause |
| 21:49.35 | beandog | Now that is dumb. |
| 21:50.25 | fungus | It is dumb, but why would you want more than one column with the same data? |
| 21:51.24 | DexterTheDragon | cause I want a created to DEFAULT CURRENT_TIMESTAMP and I want a modified to ON UPDATE CURRENT_TIMESTAMP |
| 21:51.51 | beandog | yah |
| 21:51.56 | fungus | ahh, IC. |
| 21:52.00 | fungus | That is dumb |
| 21:52.36 | fungus | the restriction not your idea. |
| 22:01.04 | utahcon | s/CP/PC/ |
| 22:08.17 | *** join/#uphpu wps (n=wps@173-116-186-19.pools.spcsdns.net) |
| 22:08.19 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o wps] by ChanServ |
| 22:30.20 | mindjuju | beandog |
| 22:38.48 | herlo | carmony: did you pick a theme for geek lunch? |
| 22:40.01 | mindjuju | for up north, it's olive garden |
| 22:40.06 | mindjuju | i'll see if i can find the address |
| 22:40.16 | mindjuju | we need to find an italian place for the SLC |
| 22:41.46 | *** join/#uphpu wps (n=wps@208.53.47.251) |
| 22:41.46 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o wps] by ChanServ |
| 22:43.14 | fungus | mindjuju: http://stonegroundslc.com/ |
| 22:45.22 | fungus | or http://www.rustedsunpizzeria.com/ |
| 22:47.02 | mindjuju | both of those look really good! |
| 22:47.20 | fungus | or Robintino's |
| 22:47.21 | fungus | http://local.yahoo.com/info-19929670-robintino-s-restaurant-salt-lake-city |
| 22:48.00 | mindjuju | which is the best of the three? |
| 22:48.07 | fungus | Stoneground |
| 22:49.51 | fungus | There are also more traditional options like Buca di Bepo's, Tucci's, and Olive Garden too. |
| 22:51.27 | fungus | oh, and the Old Spaghetti Factory of course |
| 22:56.48 | mindjuju | we'll have to hammer it down tomorrow when more people are here, but those are awesome ideas |
| 22:56.59 | SunSparc | Macaroni Grill? |
| 22:57.43 | mindjuju | Sunsparc, would that be for Utah County? mgeary had an idea |
| 22:57.55 | mindjuju | La Vida Loca ? something like that |
| 22:58.01 | mgeary | La Dolce Vita |
| 22:58.13 | SunSparc | Tuscany is tasty, but expensive |
| 22:58.26 | SunSparc | Utah County, yeah Macaroni Grill is yummy. |
| 22:58.42 | cro | mindjuju: I think the north side is still up in the air, had a couple of "please no" when I suggested Olive Garden |
| 22:58.50 | SunSparc | Or J Dawg's |
| 22:58.51 | SunSparc | :) |
| 22:58.51 | cro | have a suggestion up in Ogden |
| 22:59.13 | mindjuju | cro, do you have a suggestion for italian place up in ogden area? |
| 22:59.49 | cro | yes, La Ferrovia on 25th |
| 23:00.00 | cro | we were in Layton last time, to go to Ogden this time would be fine I think |
| 23:00.11 | DexterTheDragon | La Ferrovia++ |
| 23:00.17 | DexterTheDragon | best itallian place ever |
| 23:00.40 | cro | sounds like a plan then |
| 23:00.48 | cro | g2g, ttyl all. |
| 23:02.34 | mindjuju | well, that settles it for ogden :) |
| 23:02.58 | *** join/#uphpu wps (n=wps@208.53.47.251) |
| 23:02.58 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o wps] by ChanServ |
| 23:15.53 | SunSparc | Night all!!!!! |
| 23:45.28 | *** join/#uphpu Utah_Dave (n=David@190.81.36.67) |
| 23:45.28 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o Utah_Dave] by ChanServ |
| 23:51.46 | Utah_Dave | ~tunafart mindjuju all the way from Lima |