| 01:23.53 | macnewbold | http://dojo.codegreene.com/?p=295 <-- in case anyone ever asks you about whether outsourcing is a good idea or not |
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| 02:18.46 | Lone_Wanderer | beandog: you going to the ren faire? |
| 02:19.26 | beandog | ohhhhhhhhh yah |
| 02:19.58 | Lone_Wanderer | Cool, me too. One of the Enforcers is going to be there or I probably wouldn't, what with the living in Utah Valley thing. |
| 02:20.27 | beandog | cool |
| 02:20.31 | beandog | Ill probably be there the whole day |
| 02:20.36 | Lone_Wanderer | :) |
| 02:20.38 | beandog | if I see ya, Ill buy ya a turkey leg |
| 02:20.48 | Lone_Wanderer | cool |
| 02:20.58 | Lone_Wanderer | Is it possible to buy Adult Beverages there? |
| 02:21.06 | beandog | most likely |
| 02:21.12 | Lone_Wanderer | also, their web site is annoying |
| 02:21.15 | Lone_Wanderer | with the music playing |
| 02:21.56 | Lone_Wanderer | A Feast! |
| 02:22.05 | Lone_Wanderer | and a redhead! |
| 02:22.09 | Lone_Wanderer | What more can any man want? |
| 02:23.23 | Lone_Wanderer | Oh, the redhead is Laura. I know her. |
| 02:36.19 | Utah_Dave | macnewbold: nice post |
| 02:36.28 | macnewbold | thanks |
| 02:36.32 | macnewbold | it was a fun discussion |
| 02:36.45 | macnewbold | we've met a ton of people who have tried outsourcing, and the majority have a bad experience |
| 02:37.03 | macnewbold | it was good to get some good validation from someone who gave it a very serious go |
| 02:37.18 | Utah_Dave | yeah, they really jumped in with both feet |
| 02:37.44 | Utah_Dave | I worked on a project for a guy here locally last year that had 2 guys in the Philipines working with us |
| 02:37.56 | Utah_Dave | They were basically working out of their homes. |
| 02:38.21 | Utah_Dave | It actually worked out fairly well, but it sure was hard to maintain the communication |
| 02:38.23 | macnewbold | the really funny thing was, even though the topic was known in advance, before the meeting a guy in Pleasant Grove who runs an outsourcing company that has a 65-man shop in a suburb of Mumbai was handing out business cards and flyers |
| 02:38.34 | Utah_Dave | :) |
| 02:38.53 | macnewbold | yeah, communication is hard, and getting a spec detailed enough that they can get it right on the first or second try |
| 02:39.54 | Utah_Dave | yep. We had to chat with them every day. |
| 02:40.04 | macnewbold | most outsourcing victims tell us that they build exactly what you tell them to. no more, sometimes less, and don't expect them to make any suggestions or try to solve any problems. |
| 02:40.15 | macnewbold | you can't just give them requirements and tell them to go for it |
| 02:40.36 | macnewbold | today Eric Smith also said that there was a significant problem with some schools there that churn out graduates who don't know a darn thing. |
| 02:40.51 | macnewbold | had never used a compiler, etc. but were applying for c++ jobs and such |
| 02:41.35 | Utah_Dave | huh |
| 02:42.41 | macnewbold | from some of the work I've seen come out of india etc., I can see what he means |
| 02:43.05 | macnewbold | I couldn't believe it when he said that two sr guys here could have done as much as their whole 50 person team (including 1 sr guy) could do |
| 02:43.42 | macnewbold | I know that we often can get a lot more done better and faster, but that was pretty extreme to me |
| 02:44.19 | Utah_Dave | yeah, that was quite a contrast |
| 02:44.55 | macnewbold | i can understand it though - it happens here too - we know teams that think they need 10 php devs, and get a bunch of jr guys or entry level or interns, thinking that 10x the manpower will do better |
| 02:45.06 | Utah_Dave | There really is no substitute for being able to sit down at a table with a client and being able to ask questions until you both know what is really wanted |
| 02:45.13 | macnewbold | but its pretty easy for one really good guy to be able to do it better and faster |
| 02:45.20 | macnewbold | and cheaper too, cause he doesn't make 10x what they do |
| 02:45.23 | macnewbold | just 3x maybe |
| 02:45.31 | macnewbold | absolutely |
| 02:47.40 | Utah_Dave | Almost every time it turns out that they were using the wrong vocabulary and were asking for something else |
| 02:47.56 | Utah_Dave | Or they didn't really understand the best way to achieve some goal or need |
| 02:48.42 | macnewbold | right. the only places I knwo that have succeeded outsourcing have had managers here breaking it down to the tiniest level. |
| 02:49.14 | macnewbold | but by the time you do that, you're really not saving that much, nor getting things done that much faster, than if they guy you had manage them (cause he has to be a mid-to-sr level developer usually) had just been doing the work |
| 02:49.48 | macnewbold | you'd do better having him work with some reasonable jr devs here, he'd get more done and probably at an overall lower cost or higher quality |
| 02:49.57 | Utah_Dave | yep |
| 03:25.11 | beandog | at least you save on donuts |
| 03:27.02 | Lone_Wanderer | oh man the donut bill is killing us |
| 03:27.23 | beandog | http://techdirt.com/articles/20090515/1301064900.shtml |
| 03:27.24 | beandog | wow, just wow. |
| 03:27.35 | Lone_Wanderer | So is this girl who keeps texting me. |
| 03:28.09 | beandog | Lone_Wanderer: does she joust? |
| 03:28.25 | Lone_Wanderer | Not as far as I know. If she did I might not mind so much. |
| 03:28.33 | beandog | have at thee, knave! |
| 03:29.10 | Lone_Wanderer | I'll have you know, I'm a direct descendant of William the Marshall. |
| 03:29.32 | beandog | whose that |
| 03:30.00 | beandog | a blacksmith? |
| 03:30.01 | Lone_Wanderer | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Marshal |
| 03:30.21 | Lone_Wanderer | He has been described as the "greatest knight that ever lived" (Stephen Langton). |
| 03:31.07 | beandog | I'm ashamed to admit what I've been described as |
| 03:31.09 | Lone_Wanderer | (I don't actually know what "direct" means.) |
| 03:31.22 | Lone_Wanderer | As in "direct descendant" |
| 03:31.29 | Lone_Wanderer | I've been described as a lot of things. |
| 03:36.22 | beandog | meh |
| 03:36.27 | beandog | Im trying to decide if I should go to the park or not |
| 03:36.42 | Lone_Wanderer | What's at the park? |
| 03:36.52 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm trying to figure out what I can do that's social. |
| 03:37.44 | beandog | Lone_Wanderer: lets go see a movie |
| 03:38.01 | beandog | oh wait, arent you in Orem or smoething |
| 03:38.56 | Lone_Wanderer | Yeah, where are you? |
| 03:39.50 | beandog | downtown slc, baby |
| 03:40.17 | Lone_Wanderer | Can I get to SLC before all the movies... umm... run out? Or whatever they do? |
| 03:40.27 | beandog | I think they already have |
| 03:40.31 | beandog | stupid utah and its early movies |
| 03:40.37 | beandog | why, in my day! |
| 03:40.45 | beandog | we screened movies til 12:30 |
| 03:42.10 | beandog | ah well. |
| 03:42.17 | Lone_Wanderer | Not a big fan of the whole "Everything closes at 9" thing in Utah. |
| 03:42.19 | beandog | utah is not the place for night people |
| 03:42.24 | beandog | *everything* closes at 9 |
| 03:42.25 | beandog | heh |
| 03:42.32 | beandog | which is one reason I love vegas |
| 03:42.48 | beandog | Lone_Wanderer: the worst part is its that way in provo too |
| 03:42.53 | beandog | where 95% of the population is under 25 |
| 03:43.16 | beandog | at least the park is open til 11 |
| 03:44.31 | beandog | mmm |
| 03:44.35 | beandog | reminds me of my days at college |
| 03:44.41 | beandog | I'd sleep from 9 a.m. to 6 p.m. |
| 03:44.51 | beandog | those were the days. |
| 03:45.24 | beandog | alright, enough stalling |
| 03:45.25 | beandog | me voy! |
| 03:45.27 | beandog | laters guys |
| 03:45.34 | Lone_Wanderer | au revoir |
| 03:45.50 | beandog | choo |
| 04:03.11 | influx_ | Galllery Stroll |
| 04:03.24 | influx_ | is @ night |
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| 14:30.31 | wps | awesome |
| 14:31.07 | wps | the USPS provides a mechanism on their website for initiating a hold-mail request, but requires no authentication (proof that you are who you say you are) |
| 14:31.16 | wps | so I could place a mail hold on anyone's address |
| 14:57.24 | Utah_Dave | nice |
| 14:57.54 | Utah_Dave | dang, wps. Your mom is way ahead in that poll! |
| 16:55.53 | wps | yeah, it's crazy |
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