| 00:01.26 | dataw0lf | http://david.weebly.com/1/post/2009/03/how-to-open-many-keypad-access-doors.html |
| 00:01.34 | dataw0lf | semi-interesting post, but mouseover the header image |
| 00:04.57 | Lone_Wanderer | Nice header. |
| 00:07.11 | dataw0lf | yea, using jParallax |
| 00:07.15 | dataw0lf | great use of it |
| 00:08.47 | Lone_Wanderer | Frailty, thy name is Woman! |
| 00:08.54 | Lone_Wanderer | (Second favorite Hamlet line.) |
| 00:09.47 | dataw0lf | Mmmm, now THIS is what I call bipartisanship: http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2009/03/state_should_sell_pot_and_tax.html |
| 00:11.03 | Lone_Wanderer | Good deal. |
| 00:11.21 | Lone_Wanderer | Is more than $100 an ounce for weed - even high quality weed - really worth it though? |
| 00:11.43 | Lone_Wanderer | I don't exactly have my finger on the pulse of the drug market, but I was under the impression that weed was pretty cheap. |
| 00:12.59 | fungus | Me neither, never paid for it. |
| 00:14.11 | dataw0lf | ... |
| 00:14.15 | dataw0lf | 100 dollars for an ounce? |
| 00:14.19 | dataw0lf | this isn't mexican dirt weed, man |
| 00:14.36 | Utah_Dave | http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121124460502305693.html |
| 00:14.37 | dataw0lf | 1/8 of an ounce is the routine "buyer package" |
| 00:14.44 | dataw0lf | and an eighth goes for about 40-50 dollars |
| 00:15.03 | dataw0lf | an ounce to low-level drug dealers goes for about 250, on average |
| 00:15.20 | dataw0lf | (I'm talking good weed here, which is the norm in our area, you don't run into dirt weed much anymore) |
| 00:15.39 | dataw0lf | (since United States production has exploded) |
| 00:16.11 | dataw0lf | my guess is they'll sell it for 60-70 dollars an eighth, which is pretty pricey but there's definitely a huge market for it even at those costs. |
| 00:16.24 | Lone_Wanderer | Huh, I didn't know it was so involved. |
| 00:16.42 | dataw0lf | it's more involved than different types of beer and wine. |
| 00:18.09 | Lone_Wanderer | Food time. Past time in fact. |
| 00:18.12 | dataw0lf | well weed receives a lot less treatment than alcohol, so the Amisfield philosophy is de fact. |
| 00:18.16 | dataw0lf | de facto* |
| 00:18.53 | Utah_Dave | night everyone |
| 00:19.17 | dataw0lf | the amount of horticultural knowledge weed growers have is extraordinary. |
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| 00:32.24 | mindjuju | wow, that's a heck of a backlog |
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| 01:32.17 | beandog | anyone around? Im stuck on a postgres query |
| 01:32.31 | beandog | I'm trying to add a where clause of count(col) = int |
| 01:32.37 | beandog | but it's not letting me. |
| 01:32.39 | beandog | meh. |
| 01:32.45 | beandog | ERROR: aggregates not allowed in WHERE clause |
| 01:33.14 | Dezertol | have to use having |
| 01:33.29 | Dezertol | where blah= blah having count(col) = int |
| 01:33.38 | DexterTheDragon | you would have to put the count in the fields like count(col) as total, then do total = int |
| 01:33.54 | beandog | ah, that does it |
| 01:33.55 | beandog | thx |
| 01:34.01 | beandog | man, that takes a second to run. |
| 01:37.03 | beandog | man, triggers are the coolest eve.r |
| 01:37.17 | Dezertol | ya there nice.. |
| 01:37.41 | Dezertol | especially when your dealing with two fields that "might" have the same data but that one alway overwrites the other |
| 01:37.44 | Dezertol | on every insert |
| 01:37.59 | beandog | yah |
| 01:38.07 | Dezertol | did I mention that I hate quickbooks |
| 01:38.09 | beandog | I just wrote a simple one to delete foreign references if a value changes |
| 01:38.13 | beandog | very handy. |
| 01:38.14 | Dezertol | and there schema |
| 01:38.30 | Dezertol | ya.. cascade deleting |
| 01:38.35 | Dezertol | be carefull with that |
| 01:38.37 | Dezertol | lol |
| 01:38.44 | Dezertol | speaking from past expirence |
| 01:38.56 | Dezertol | sometimes it better to leave the data orphened |
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| 01:55.35 | orsonj | I wonder what that was |
| 01:57.57 | herlo | orsonj: what? |
| 01:58.29 | beandog | netsplit? |
| 01:58.45 | Dezertol | ya |
| 01:58.47 | DexterTheDragon | cosmic fluctuations of the interwebs? |
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| 02:17.24 | mindjuju | it's actually interweb flatulations, not fluctuations dexterthedragon |
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| 02:29.20 | DexterTheDragon | ~tunafart mindjuju |
| 02:29.21 | jbot | ACTION eats a week-old tuna sandwich with relish and walks over to mindjuju, leg raised, to let 'em rip. |
| 02:29.24 | DexterTheDragon | like that? |
| 02:29.28 | beandog | ah man |
| 02:29.33 | beandog | letterman clips++ |
| 02:29.35 | beandog | hee hee |
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| 02:38.29 | wps | dataw0lf: you see this? |
| 02:38.29 | wps | http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/President44/story?id=7061084&page=1 |
| 02:38.38 | wps | http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/President44/story?id=7061084&page=1 |
| 02:38.51 | wps | President Obama acknowledged today that he signed an "imperfect omnibus bill" |
| 02:39.29 | wps | "The president signed the $410 billion spending bill, which contains roughly 9,000 earmarks totaling nearly $8 billion" |
| 02:51.16 | Dezertol | lol was that the one with like 500,000 for research into why pigs smell bad |
| 02:51.17 | Dezertol | lol |
| 02:53.10 | dataw0lf | wps: but what's considered "pork"? They never give an example. |
| 02:53.18 | dataw0lf | Dezertol: and that's actually a legitimate earmark... |
| 02:53.26 | wps | true |
| 02:53.50 | wps | I still bothers me that he said "no earmarks!" and yet he signed a bill loaded with them |
| 02:54.12 | wps | I understand that every politician liesâ¦Â especially on the campaign trailâ¦Â but that's no excuse |
| 02:54.13 | dataw0lf | he never said "no earmarks!" he said pork earmarks were bad and he planned to slash those ones. |
| 02:54.26 | dataw0lf | McCain said "No earmarks!". |
| 02:54.29 | Dezertol | to be honets.. I don't expect him to hold to his word on much of anything |
| 02:54.44 | dataw0lf | Dezertol: Explain why the "pigs smell bad" earmark is pork. |
| 02:54.59 | wps | I sure do. I am sick of lies. |
| 02:55.05 | tonedevf | Ha! |
| 02:55.07 | dataw0lf | Iowa contains a quarter of the pigs in the United States. Run-off from pig feces and air contamination is a concern there. |
| 02:55.42 | herlo | I think he's not going to be able to do everything he wants, but I like that he's been open about what he's doing for the most part |
| 02:55.45 | Dezertol | then just slotter then all and be done |
| 02:55.56 | dataw0lf | it's actually, y'know, kinda dangerous. Would you have a pig farm draining into your community's watertables without research in exactly what that entails? |
| 02:56.05 | herlo | Dezertol: you can't have slaughter without laughter :) |
| 02:56.13 | dataw0lf | Dezertol: Right. A large part of the agricultural economy, you want to slaughter them all. |
| 02:56.21 | dataw0lf | Good call bud *wink* |
| 02:56.22 | Dezertol | lol |
| 02:56.31 | dataw0lf | that's why we have changed the intellectual level of the leaders in this country. |
| 02:56.33 | Dezertol | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:56.51 | Dezertol | unless you plan on sitckn a peice of cork up there butts |
| 02:56.58 | Dezertol | it's got to somewhere |
| 02:57.10 | dataw0lf | of course it does. that's why they're RESEARCHING IT |
| 02:57.13 | dataw0lf | safe removal |
| 02:57.16 | Dezertol | dairy farmers use it for there fields |
| 02:57.25 | Dezertol | that's lame |
| 02:57.42 | Dezertol | it's a bs grant |
| 02:57.45 | dataw0lf | dairy farmers can use it all they want, what if the milk got contaminated. |
| 02:57.50 | herlo | no, that's a good thing, but they can't use it all... |
| 02:57.58 | herlo | and it needs to be cleaned |
| 02:58.14 | dataw0lf | you have to research these things, and it stimulates the economy by paying people to take care of, well, literally crap. |
| 02:58.55 | Dezertol | I don't think the government should have anything do to with it |
| 02:58.58 | dataw0lf | All you do is give a one-liner you heard on Sean Hannity and then you have no actual facts or points to support it. |
| 02:59.00 | Dezertol | maybe local |
| 02:59.04 | dataw0lf | except "HURR GOVERNMENT BAD HURR" |
| 02:59.18 | dataw0lf | Bah. Not even worth my time. |
| 02:59.19 | Dezertol | if they can't be responsible to deal with it |
| 02:59.30 | Dezertol | close there doors |
| 02:59.48 | Dezertol | you can't be flingin crap over you fence |
| 02:59.52 | Dezertol | you'll go to jail |
| 03:00.11 | Dezertol | the "farmers" need to hire the research |
| 03:00.23 | Dezertol | not just sit around with there hands out begging for money from the gov |
| 03:00.28 | Dezertol | it's weak |
| 03:01.22 | dataw0lf | Ah, yes, let's rely on a business to research the effect a waste they produce has when they dispose of it. |
| 03:01.27 | dataw0lf | That's worked really well in the past. |
| 03:02.23 | dataw0lf | This is the problem: no dividend. That's why the government has to regulate stuff. And to regulate stuff properly, you have to, y'know, research it. |
| 03:02.50 | dataw0lf | herlo: you'd be quite disappointed with the brand of beer I'm drinking. |
| 03:02.57 | herlo | dataw0lf: PBR? |
| 03:03.02 | dataw0lf | haha. YES. |
| 03:03.11 | herlo | yes, I am dissappointed in you |
| 03:03.11 | dataw0lf | bottled though, so I guess that's something. |
| 03:03.22 | herlo | but we'll go to the bayou this weekend and solve that problem :) |
| 03:03.32 | herlo | heh, no, it's still piss in a bottle :) |
| 03:03.43 | dataw0lf | hah |
| 03:03.54 | herlo | dataw0lf: what are you doing on Sunday? |
| 03:04.02 | dataw0lf | herlo: y'know, might be paintballing. |
| 03:04.04 | herlo | when do you leave to go back to Reno? |
| 03:04.08 | dataw0lf | Sunday night |
| 03:04.17 | herlo | dataw0lf: sure, but we could go drinking after/before |
| 03:04.20 | herlo | k, cool |
| 03:04.22 | dataw0lf | for sure. |
| 03:04.33 | dataw0lf | you can come pb if you want, I'm going to see if I can talk Jayce into it. |
| 03:04.40 | herlo | sweet, ping mw when you get in town... |
| 03:04.50 | dataw0lf | Will do. |
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| 05:34.52 | Lone_Wanderer | dataw0lf this is for you: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1358 |
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| 05:51.34 | olds | Lone_Wanderer: you rang? |
| 05:53.35 | dataw0lf | haha, crikey olds. |
| 05:54.13 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: hahaha, great comic |
| 05:54.23 | olds | I check irc slightly more often than voicemail |
| 05:54.36 | olds | and I don't listen to my voicemail |
| 05:54.43 | olds | I figure if it's important enough, someone will call me again |
| 05:54.54 | dataw0lf | yea my iphone never reminds me of voicemail so I never listen to it, just delete it periodically. |
| 05:55.02 | dataw0lf | but damn it reminds me of text messages incessantly. |
| 05:58.49 | olds | yea |
| 05:59.13 | olds | the iphone makes it easier to check voicemail |
| 06:02.29 | dataw0lf | meh, I don't notice it until it builds up to ridiculous amounts then I just delete it |
| 06:02.43 | dataw0lf | olds: want to go to the Bayou on Friday @ 2pm? |
| 06:02.54 | olds | you're in town? |
| 06:03.42 | dataw0lf | gonna be, on Friday. |
| 06:04.00 | olds | I was at the Bayou tonight |
| 06:04.02 | dataw0lf | couple co-workers from Reno are gonna be in town too for the Ruby conf. |
| 06:04.08 | dataw0lf | ha! no kidding? |
| 06:04.55 | olds | Friday looks good |
| 06:05.04 | olds | I'll see if I can rope com4 into coming |
| 06:05.07 | dataw0lf | nice, bunch of us getting together. |
| 06:05.14 | dataw0lf | awesome! |
| 06:05.50 | olds | I need to delve into ruby a bit more |
| 06:05.58 | olds | ruby as a language seems odd to me |
| 06:06.08 | olds | python makes sense |
| 06:06.10 | dataw0lf | it's a very friendly way to get into Lisp-ish functional programming. |
| 06:06.33 | dataw0lf | and the Smalltalk message sending paradigm is very... I dunno, I suppose enlightening. |
| 06:06.41 | dataw0lf | Trust me, I would choose Python for 90% of my projects. |
| 06:07.06 | dataw0lf | But Ruby is a very good language to build your general programming knowledge foundation upon. |
| 06:07.33 | olds | yea |
| 06:07.41 | olds | that'd be my main reason for learning it |
| 06:07.51 | dataw0lf | yea, definitely. It's certainly fun. |
| 06:08.06 | dataw0lf | It's a... looser environment than Python offers. |
| 06:08.13 | dataw0lf | implicit versus explicit. |
| 06:08.17 | olds | hmph |
| 06:08.37 | dataw0lf | the last statement in a method is implicitly the return value. |
| 06:08.46 | dataw0lf | no requirement to call return. |
| 06:08.50 | olds | interesting |
| 06:09.01 | dataw0lf | a method without parantheses is implicitly called too, which I have a problem with |
| 06:09.06 | dataw0lf | () is the call operator, y'know? |
| 06:09.12 | olds | I like python's explicit nature |
| 06:09.19 | dataw0lf | Same here, for the most part. |
| 06:09.21 | olds | weird |
| 06:10.02 | olds | I guess I just don't quite have a mental place for where ruby fits in |
| 06:10.22 | olds | seems like it should be between php and python |
| 06:10.28 | olds | in some abstract way |
| 06:10.48 | dataw0lf | well |
| 06:11.00 | dataw0lf | it's Lisp with some Perl and Smalltalk tendencies |
| 06:11.05 | dataw0lf | in essence. |
| 06:12.07 | dataw0lf | it's extremely flexible and unlike Perl conveniently easy to monkey-patch. This often leads to messy and undesirable code (look at DHH's Rails before the smart programmers saved him in 2.0) |
| 06:13.05 | dataw0lf | but it isn't spaghetti code like Perl, it's... anti-spaghetti code. Like anti-matter. It encapsulates things at the lowest level (when you're monkey-patching) so that at any levels following it, it seems like grand wizardry |
| 06:13.47 | dataw0lf | but good Ruby code is certainly a beautiful thing to behold, like good Lisp code, but nicer to the eyes. |
| 06:14.11 | olds | we're using Django these days for pretty much everything |
| 06:14.22 | olds | except maintaining legacy code |
| 06:14.28 | dataw0lf | yea? how you liking it? |
| 06:14.43 | dataw0lf | I've ran into some problems with heavy ORM usage. |
| 06:14.46 | dataw0lf | run* |
| 06:14.49 | olds | love it |
| 06:14.50 | olds | yea |
| 06:15.02 | olds | I'm a "roll my own" queries kind of person |
| 06:15.02 | dataw0lf | but, Django is the answer 90% of the time. |
| 06:15.06 | dataw0lf | yea |
| 06:15.13 | olds | so it's taking some adjusting |
| 06:15.38 | dataw0lf | I've been playing heavily with Pylons and SQLAlchemy for our heavier usage sites. |
| 06:15.56 | dataw0lf | I've done like 20 lone Django sites for this newspaper company in the space of a year. |
| 06:16.03 | olds | yea |
| 06:16.08 | dataw0lf | several Rails sites, two merb sites, and a Pylons site. |
| 06:16.11 | olds | we have lots of little django projects floating around |
| 06:16.22 | dataw0lf | they're so easy to maintain, if you get the schema right. |
| 06:16.41 | olds | we like Django especially because of the strong separation between front/back end code |
| 06:16.42 | dataw0lf | actually, Django's best friend is a versioning system like git |
| 06:16.51 | olds | yea, we use git |
| 06:16.53 | dataw0lf | where you keep a production and development branch in tight sync with one another. |
| 06:17.02 | dataw0lf | nice, yea, that's what I do. |
| 06:17.04 | dataw0lf | <3 github. |
| 06:17.27 | olds | it's nice to hand off the projects to the frontend team |
| 06:17.42 | olds | and they know all django tags |
| 06:17.55 | dataw0lf | people like to complain about Django's templating system, I think it's the perfect separation of roles, personally. |
| 06:18.01 | olds | and don't try to touch the backend code |
| 06:18.19 | olds | yea |
| 06:18.25 | olds | everyone likes it for that reason |
| 06:18.30 | olds | at our place |
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| 06:18.40 | olds | there's a clear handoff point |
| 06:18.46 | dataw0lf | yup. |
| 06:18.52 | olds | Backend people do everything up to the views |
| 06:18.53 | dataw0lf | Have you looked at Mako? |
| 06:18.55 | dataw0lf | it's terrible. |
| 06:18.58 | olds | nope |
| 06:19.06 | dataw0lf | Jinja / Django is where it's at. |
| 06:19.11 | dataw0lf | Abog: ? |
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| 06:21.08 | dataw0lf | olds: anyway, my number is 775 636 5992, gimme a call on Friday, or priv me your number. I'm gonna get some sleep. |
| 06:21.38 | olds | k good night |
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| 14:40.15 | macnewbold | ~yow |
| 14:45.25 | carmony | ~lart macnewbold |
| 14:45.26 | jbot | eats macnewbold and falls over dead |
| 14:45.27 | carmony | ;) |
| 14:45.48 | macnewbold | ~rlart |
| 14:45.49 | jbot | says "boot to the head" and knocks macnewbold over |
| 14:45.54 | macnewbold | ?!? |
| 14:46.04 | Dezertol | lol |
| 14:49.53 | jsmith | That's one way of saying "good morning" |
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| 14:56.49 | macnewbold | jsmith: do you have a good link or or recommendations about decent inexpensive VOIP phones? Either hardware or good soft phones for linux, windows, and/or mac os x. |
| 14:57.10 | macnewbold | we've liked our polycom 501's but they're pricier than we want right now, and most of our team doesn't really use all the features |
| 14:57.30 | macnewbold | 3-way conf call is about the only thing we do much of, other than simple voicemail and transferring calls. |
| 14:59.48 | macnewbold | we've considered softphones along with a decent head set as an alternative too |
| 14:59.49 | Lone_Wanderer | macnewbold: my instructor at USAALS reminded me of Zippy the Pinhead |
| 14:59.56 | macnewbold | hehe |
| 14:59.59 | Lone_Wanderer | (US Army Aviation and Logistics School :p) |
| 15:00.00 | macnewbold | gotta love zippy |
| 15:00.02 | macnewbold | ~zippy |
| 15:00.25 | Lone_Wanderer | Oh yeah. I was going to photoshop a Zippy cartoon to make it look and read like him but I wasn't sure if he's appreciate it |
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| 15:03.53 | Lone_Wanderer | Okay, off to job interview #1 for the day. |
| 15:05.18 | Dezertol | good luck |
| 15:08.38 | jsmith | macnewbold: I like the Linksys SPA-942 and -962 models. |
| 15:09.01 | jsmith | macnewbold: I'm not a big fan of softphones, but the softphones from Counterpath are about as nice as you can get |
| 15:10.27 | utahcon | anyone got an example of a WSDL that returns an XML block of data? |
| 15:10.53 | utahcon | which I realize that seems vague. |
| 15:14.57 | carmony | you mean a webservice that within itself it returns XML, and how the WSDL would define that? |
| 15:15.33 | utahcon | carmony: yes. |
| 15:15.48 | carmony | lol, I don't :P |
| 15:15.54 | utahcon | doh |
| 15:16.02 | carmony | I mean, you could just return a "string" |
| 15:16.22 | utahcon | could |
| 15:16.37 | utahcon | seems it more appropriate to return a custom type... |
| 15:16.47 | utahcon | but for the purpose at hand... string it is/ |
| 15:17.31 | macnewbold | jsmith: thanks! I'll check those out. |
| 15:17.43 | carmony | just make sure that whatever is serving the SOAP response ecapulates that string with a cdata tag |
| 15:18.25 | mgeary | ~yow |
| 15:18.41 | jsmith | utahcon: You understand what a WSDL file is, right? |
| 15:19.30 | utahcon | WSDL is a definition of what a web service does. |
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| 15:21.04 | macnewbold | utahcon: yeah, if your SOAP web service needs to return XML (after the soap response is unwrapped), I'd say it should return string. |
| 15:21.22 | macnewbold | though generally it makes a lot more sense to either return a structured answer instead of XML that needs to be parsed, |
| 15:21.32 | macnewbold | or to use REST instead of SOAP and skip the whole wsdl thing |
| 15:21.51 | macnewbold | with REST you'd just return the XML instead of returning an xml doc that contains another xml doc |
| 15:29.14 | macnewbold | jsmith: is there a <=$100 voip phone that's worth the money? or are all the reasonable offerings at least $120-180? |
| 15:33.13 | jsmith | macnewbold: The reasonable offerings are gonna be in the higher price range. |
| 15:33.51 | jsmith | macnewbold: You wouldn't buy your employees a $250 PC to work on... so why scrimp on one of their primary communications tools? |
| 15:35.45 | carmony | jk ;) |
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| 15:39.21 | fungus | macnewbold: our standard issue for the field is the Polycom 430. IIRC it's only $120 |
| 15:40.04 | fungus | Pretty decent phone, but not over extravagant |
| 15:41.13 | utahcon | polycom's website fails on spell check: "Full-duplex speakerphone and a robus feature set in a two-line phone" |
| 15:43.36 | macnewbold | jsmith: for our guys, the phone isn't one of their primary communication tools :) right now most of us (well, half of us) don't even have phones on our desks |
| 15:44.09 | macnewbold | anyway, it's just a hard pill to swallow when you're considering buying 5 of them at once. $20 price difference == $100 difference in total. |
| 15:45.04 | jsmith | macnewbold: If you're time is worth anything, you've probably spent more than that worrying about it |
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| 16:08.47 | herlo | morning |
| 16:09.05 | *** join/#uphpu Girish (n=girishr@122.172.113.240) |
| 16:12.15 | beandog | maybe in your world. |
| 16:12.17 | beandog | ~twilight zone |
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| 16:25.24 | DexterTheDragon | ~poke mindjuju in the eye |
| 16:25.25 | jbot | ACTION cuts down a small tree, sneaks up behind mindjuju in the eye, pokes mindjuju in the eye repeatedly, hilarity ensues. |
| 16:25.55 | mindjuju | yipes! |
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| 16:26.11 | mindjuju | blah |
| 16:26.30 | cro | :-( |
| 16:27.13 | utahcon | ~lart cro |
| 16:27.13 | jbot | pulls out his louisville slugger and uses cro's head to break the homerun record |
| 16:27.22 | beandog | mindjuju, whats that for |
| 16:27.31 | mindjuju | just playin' |
| 16:27.40 | mindjuju | beandog, do you eat German food? |
| 16:27.44 | mindjuju | like bratwurst? |
| 16:27.48 | mindjuju | saurkraut? |
| 16:28.02 | beandog | um |
| 16:28.08 | beandog | I dunno. |
| 16:28.46 | mindjuju | cause as long as they have something fungus friendly, we'll be doing our next SLC lunch there, which is in may |
| 16:29.12 | beandog | may!? |
| 16:29.15 | beandog | thats too far off. |
| 16:29.36 | mindjuju | well, next month is for the UC |
| 16:29.44 | beandog | the UC? |
| 16:30.21 | utahcon | Utah County |
| 16:31.05 | olds | might as well go to vegas |
| 16:37.53 | PoeticIntensity | where we going in UC? |
| 16:38.42 | PoeticIntensity | ...and when? |
| 16:39.43 | mindjuju | PoeticIntensity, we were kinda talking about Octavio's in Provo |
| 16:39.54 | mindjuju | first friday of April |
| 16:40.25 | PoeticIntensity | good choice. |
| 16:40.30 | mindjuju | well, Sunsparc mentioned a mexican restaurant with good salsa, but can't think of what it is called, something like Joe's or something |
| 16:40.42 | PoeticIntensity | Joe Bandidos? |
| 16:40.48 | mindjuju | ubt i think octavios would be cool |
| 16:40.53 | mindjuju | ~apb sunsparc |
| 16:40.54 | jbot | ACTION summons Duane Lee to stake out sunsparc |
| 16:41.38 | SunSparc | mindjuju: Joe Veras |
| 16:41.50 | mindjuju | ah, that's it PoeticIntensity ^^ |
| 16:42.05 | mindjuju | never heard of it, but i have been to octavios |
| 16:42.16 | mindjuju | utahcon, you're down in that neck of the woods, aren't you? |
| 16:43.06 | PoeticIntensity | man.... I *love* Joe Bandidos... |
| 16:43.28 | mindjuju | PoeticIntensity, is it a big place? |
| 16:43.33 | mindjuju | like how many people could sit? |
| 16:44.10 | PoeticIntensity | It's not a very big place... |
| 16:44.15 | PoeticIntensity | but they can put tables togetehr. |
| 16:44.17 | PoeticIntensity | together. |
| 16:44.33 | mindjuju | is it better than octavios? |
| 16:44.37 | PoeticIntensity | I've seen as many as .... like... 20? |
| 16:44.59 | PoeticIntensity | well.... as far as mexican food, Joe Bandidos is very good. |
| 16:45.21 | PoeticIntensity | not sure if it's better than Octavios, but if it isn't, it's very close. |
| 16:45.40 | PoeticIntensity | as good as Ottavios is at Italian, Joe's is the same for Mexican. |
| 16:46.03 | PoeticIntensity | crap... Now I'm gonna have to go to Joe's for lunch today.. Thanks a lot. |
| 16:46.05 | mindjuju | i'm up to reconsider if everybody down there is cool with it |
| 16:46.19 | PoeticIntensity | I'd rather have Joe's, personally |
| 16:46.28 | redroy_ | My office is right above Octavios... I know the owners personally |
| 16:46.33 | mindjuju | that's mgeary and sunsparc, _psychic_ |
| 16:46.43 | mindjuju | redroy, the owner is awesome! |
| 16:46.50 | mindjuju | i've meet him a couple times |
| 16:47.14 | mindjuju | was just talking about geek lunch in april, where it should be |
| 16:47.30 | mindjuju | i was thinking octavios, but PoeticIntensity was thinking Joe bandidos |
| 16:47.34 | mindjuju | he says its really good |
| 16:47.53 | redroy_ | mindjuju: totally |
| 16:48.44 | SunSparc | There is no 'c' in the italian restaurant being referred to here. |
| 16:48.47 | SunSparc | fyi |
| 16:49.01 | PoeticIntensity | Ottavios |
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| 16:49.08 | mgeary | well, imo, when it comes to italian food, La Dolce Vita beats Ottavios (not "Octavios") |
| 16:49.11 | SunSparc | :) |
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| 16:49.26 | redroy_ | Actaully... some of there marketing has the 'c' ... something to do with copyrights |
| 16:49.34 | redroy_ | *their |
| 16:49.35 | mgeary | oh yeah? |
| 16:49.37 | mgeary | weird |
| 16:49.38 | mindjuju | k, so where are we going |
| 16:49.41 | SunSparc | La Dolce Vita is pretty good, more authentic perhaps. |
| 16:49.57 | mgeary | Dolce has THE most amazing rigatoni sauce i've ever tasted |
| 16:49.59 | mgeary | mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm |
| 16:50.01 | mindjuju | touch of soul is down there too, it's good eats |
| 16:50.26 | mindjuju | k, so between dolce, oct/ottavios and Joe banditos |
| 16:50.40 | mindjuju | and mind you, will eventually get to all 3 |
| 16:52.07 | DexterTheDragon | we need a system that keeps track of what places people suggest and makes sure they get rotated through |
| 16:52.22 | DexterTheDragon | maybe even allows people to vote on where they want to go |
| 16:52.32 | mindjuju | we could do that |
| 16:52.47 | DexterTheDragon | there's nothing that can't be solved by code |
| 16:52.57 | DexterTheDragon | except maybe women |
| 16:53.10 | cro | women are nondeterministic |
| 16:53.24 | cro | even fuzzy logic doesn't work |
| 16:54.00 | utahcon | women created fuzzy logic |
| 16:54.31 | utahcon | Man: Where do you want to eat? Woman: I don't care Man: Ok mexican it is Woman: I don't want that |
| 16:54.38 | utahcon | I dont care != I dont want mexican! |
| 16:55.39 | PoeticIntensity | that pretty much sums it up. :) |
| 16:56.15 | macnewbold | yeah, that happens to me all the time |
| 16:56.21 | macnewbold | but it doesn't stop at mexican |
| 16:56.29 | utahcon | nope it sure doesn;t |
| 16:56.37 | macnewbold | usually we'll go through 3-4 things that were apparently not included in her "i don't care" or "anything" |
| 16:56.44 | utahcon | you end up going through all the types you want... then land on what she wanted in the first place but wouldn't say... |
| 16:57.07 | PoeticIntensity | which would have taken 2 seconds to say in the first place... |
| 16:57.14 | PoeticIntensity | bah. |
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| 17:09.12 | Lone_Wanderer | And they say that women are better at communication than men. |
| 17:09.14 | Lone_Wanderer | Lies, I tells ya. |
| 17:09.46 | utahcon | Right... women say they communicate better. Men only talk when we have to. |
| 17:10.10 | Lone_Wanderer | It's all feminist lies anyway. |
| 17:10.14 | tonedevf | Men only talk when they have to?? |
| 17:10.19 | Lone_Wanderer | I know a lot of guys who have verbal diarrhea. |
| 17:10.28 | tonedevf | no doubt |
| 17:10.46 | Lone_Wanderer | And a lot of women who are quiet. |
| 17:10.53 | utahcon | Ok. Gentlemen only talk when they have to. |
| 17:11.13 | Lone_Wanderer | Landowners only walk when they have to? ;) |
| 17:11.42 | Lone_Wanderer | Probably a wise decision, utahcon. |
| 17:16.17 | SunSparc | beandog: How did your Linode test go? |
| 17:18.30 | Lone_Wanderer | Linode has tests? |
| 17:18.35 | *** part/#uphpu mindjuju (n=mindjuju@76.8.222.130) |
| 17:18.50 | beandog | SunSparc, meh |
| 17:19.00 | beandog | There's this odd latency effect. |
| 17:19.09 | beandog | It might be common to VPS's in general, not sure |
| 17:19.28 | SunSparc | beandog: Network latency? Or server resource latency? |
| 17:19.36 | Dezertol | Lone_Wanderer how did the interview go |
| 17:19.40 | beandog | SunSparc, dunno |
| 17:19.45 | Lone_Wanderer | Interview went pretty well. |
| 17:19.59 | Dezertol | cool |
| 17:20.11 | beandog | SunSparc, http://wonkabar.org/archives/700 2nd paragraph |
| 17:20.41 | Dezertol | my uncle always said.. "the only thing worse then going to work... was staying home broke" |
| 17:21.05 | Lone_Wanderer | Your uncle is correct. That is why I plan to be a millionaire. |
| 17:21.15 | Dezertol | don't we all |
| 17:21.17 | Dezertol | lol |
| 17:21.30 | SunSparc | beandog: interesting |
| 17:21.31 | mgeary | every american plans on being a millionaire |
| 17:21.51 | Dezertol | that's why america is great ;-) |
| 17:21.57 | Lone_Wanderer | Not every American. |
| 17:21.57 | Dezertol | because it's possible |
| 17:21.58 | mgeary | no |
| 17:22.11 | Lone_Wanderer | I met a LOT of guys in the military who have apparently never done the math |
| 17:22.13 | mgeary | well, it's great because it's possible, but... |
| 17:22.25 | SunSparc | correction, every American wishes they were a millionaire. If they actually made plans they could make it happen. Most people stop at wishing. |
| 17:22.40 | Dezertol | this is true |
| 17:22.53 | Dezertol | but unlike in some places.. here it is possible |
| 17:23.03 | Dezertol | to become .. with out brakeing any laws.. |
| 17:23.09 | Dezertol | that is |
| 17:23.14 | mgeary | ... it drives Americans to vote as if they're all going to be rich, so they allow these absurd tax policies on the wealthy |
| 17:23.41 | Dezertol | I would love to see a flat tax |
| 17:23.42 | SunSparc | No government, EVER made ANY citizen rich. |
| 17:23.49 | Dezertol | I just don't understand why they don't do it |
| 17:24.01 | Lone_Wanderer | Dezertol: are you involved in the fair tax PAC? |
| 17:24.20 | Lone_Wanderer | That's not the govt's job though, is it SunSparc? To make people rich I mean? |
| 17:24.23 | Dezertol | seening I don't know what it is..I'd guess not |
| 17:24.24 | dataw0lf | SunSparc: that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. |
| 17:24.42 | mgeary | yeah, tell that to Eric Prince |
| 17:24.46 | mgeary | or Dick Cheny |
| 17:24.50 | Lone_Wanderer | Dezertol: fairtax.org - I think it's a great idea, you might like it |
| 17:24.56 | Dezertol | kk |
| 17:24.58 | dataw0lf | fair tax >_< |
| 17:25.04 | Lone_Wanderer | You don't like it dw? |
| 17:25.08 | dataw0lf | No. |
| 17:25.12 | Lone_Wanderer | Why not? |
| 17:25.19 | SunSparc | dataw0lf: I agree. It is one of the most ridiculous things. |
| 17:25.36 | Lone_Wanderer | I've never heard anyone oppose it, so I'm not familiar with the counter arguments. |
| 17:25.48 | SunSparc | It is not the governments job to make people rich. It is an individual choice to be rich or not. |
| 17:25.57 | Dezertol | ya |
| 17:26.25 | unum | Representative Dougal told me it's the goverments job to make people rich |
| 17:26.32 | SunSparc | I was looking at that fairtax.org, I think the idea is nice, but I have not determined whether it is a good idea or not. |
| 17:26.34 | Dezertol | lol |
| 17:26.42 | unum | Senator Stephenson works very hard to use goverment to do so |
| 17:26.43 | dataw0lf | SunSparc: of course it isn't the government's job to make people rich, it's the government's job to create an environment in which every one has a reasonable chance at becoming rich upon their own. |
| 17:26.48 | unum | the goverment makes people rich all the time |
| 17:26.49 | SunSparc | unum: of course he did, because he is in the government |
| 17:26.56 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: The FairTax is retarded on a number of levels. |
| 17:27.02 | SunSparc | dataw0lf: Agreed. |
| 17:27.25 | unum | but the main counter argument to "the fairtax" is that it's a regressive tax |
| 17:27.34 | Dezertol | why can't they just do a flat % of income |
| 17:27.39 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: http://www.factcheck.org/taxes/unspinning_the_fairtax.html |
| 17:27.41 | unum | because you are taxing the poor at a higher rate than the rich |
| 17:27.44 | Dezertol | I don't understand that |
| 17:27.58 | Dezertol | all these "programs" do is create loops |
| 17:28.05 | Lone_Wanderer | How is it a regressive tax, unum? |
| 17:28.11 | Dezertol | where the smart and well conected.. can avoid it |
| 17:28.23 | unum | Lone_Wanderer: because the poor spend a higher percentage of their income then the rich |
| 17:28.32 | Lone_Wanderer | Ahh, okay. |
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| 17:28.50 | Lone_Wanderer | If you look at it in terms of % of income then yes, it is a regressive tax. |
| 17:29.02 | unum | Lone_Wanderer: how else do you define regressive tax? |
| 17:29.02 | Dezertol | most of the pople I know that in the 200k+ braket hire several people |
| 17:29.42 | unum | the definition of a regrissve tax is a tax where the poor pay a higher percentage of their income than the rich |
| 17:29.50 | unum | btw most forms of taxes are regressive |
| 17:29.56 | dataw0lf | My family's income is probably around 800 grand a year, but since my parents are Dems, they don't exploit the tax loopholes. They figure that since they're making so much money, they owe a little more to the country that made it possible. |
| 17:30.12 | Dezertol | man... I just don't understnad finances on a gloabl scale.. |
| 17:30.37 | Lone_Wanderer | I think the # of people that really understand finances on a global scale is 10 or less. |
| 17:30.49 | Lone_Wanderer | In the world. |
| 17:30.50 | olds | Dezertol: Listen to more Notorious BIG |
| 17:30.54 | mindjuju | jsmith - http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/12/technology/internet/12google.html?_r=1&ref=personaltech |
| 17:30.58 | unum | social security is regressive, sin taxes are regressive, sales tax is regressive |
| 17:31.28 | SunSparc | dataw0lf: Why would someone who makes more have to pay more percentage than anyone else? A flat percent will automatically require more of a "rich" person than a "poor" person. |
| 17:31.42 | Dezertol | I did like that AZ didn't have sales tax on "non prepared" food items |
| 17:31.47 | Dezertol | that was nice |
| 17:32.16 | unum | SunSparc: I disagree about that. I know pay a higher percentage in taxes then I did in college |
| 17:32.30 | unum | yet i sacrafice less by paying taxes |
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| 17:32.54 | SunSparc | unum: I am not sure I understand what you mean. |
| 17:32.55 | dataw0lf | SunSparc: Because 15% of the income of someone who makes 20,000 dollars a year hits them a lot harder than 15% would hit my parents. |
| 17:33.44 | dataw0lf | the ONLY reason my parents make that much and managed to raise their kids is because of welfare and tax breaks on the poverty-stricken. |
| 17:33.48 | SunSparc | dataw0lf: So you consider it proper to punish people who make more just because other make less? |
| 17:33.54 | olds | I think everyone should have to pay higher taxes. Except for me. |
| 17:33.56 | olds | :) |
| 17:34.07 | dataw0lf | SunSparc: the idea that it's a "punishment" is pretty ridiculous. |
| 17:34.19 | Dezertol | ya.. I guess at the very low end.. but.. the % would be low to |
| 17:34.21 | olds | punish? |
| 17:34.28 | olds | like a flogging? |
| 17:34.35 | SunSparc | dataw0lf: It just seems that way, since it is unequitable. |
| 17:34.35 | dataw0lf | It's a duty required of people who've been in such a great country as the United States that they can prosper so well. |
| 17:34.44 | dataw0lf | so that others can have the same chance. |
| 17:35.04 | Lone_Wanderer | SunSparc: If you're going to consider taxation as punishment, and you're also advocating that the rich should be taxed less than the poor, you're pretty much saying that the poor should be punished for being poor... |
| 17:35.14 | SunSparc | I understand your meaning, but why would one person's duty be larger than another person? |
| 17:35.47 | Dezertol | there in lies my quam |
| 17:35.49 | dataw0lf | because they have succeeded BECAUSE of the United States. And it's easy to quote the American Dream when you are unwilling to help others achieve the same goal. |
| 17:36.03 | Dezertol | why should someone that's to lazy to work hard.. get off easy |
| 17:36.15 | Dezertol | I know people that don't do anything at all |
| 17:36.18 | dataw0lf | right, my parents made less than 20k a year for 15 years because they were lazy. |
| 17:36.19 | Lone_Wanderer | Dezertol: Who's going to quantify how hard someone works? |
| 17:36.20 | Dezertol | and just collect money from the gov |
| 17:36.22 | dataw0lf | you're an idiot. |
| 17:36.28 | dataw0lf | it's not about laziness at all. |
| 17:36.33 | Dezertol | kinda pisses me off that i'm paying them to sit home and play nintendo |
| 17:36.35 | SunSparc | How is having unequal duties helpful? |
| 17:36.39 | Lone_Wanderer | It's perfectly possible for someone to work themselves to death and not make very much money. |
| 17:37.33 | Dezertol | ture |
| 17:37.35 | Dezertol | true |
| 17:37.51 | mindjuju | dataw0lf et al., no ad hominem attacks |
| 17:38.05 | Lone_Wanderer | shut up mindjuju, you suck |
| 17:38.09 | SunSparc | I am not really even talking about the amount of money people make. I am talking about how unequal the system is. |
| 17:38.10 | Lone_Wanderer | >.> |
| 17:38.13 | mindjuju | :) |
| 17:38.40 | olds | how dare those poor people get any breaks |
| 17:38.40 | Lone_Wanderer | I would ask whether it's necessary for the system to be equal or fair in the first place. |
| 17:39.00 | Dezertol | lol my bro doesn't pay any taxes and he get's money back every year |
| 17:39.01 | Dezertol | lol |
| 17:39.16 | Lone_Wanderer | Most pro-capitalism folks take the position that life is hard and if you can't make it you deserve to be poor |
| 17:39.31 | dataw0lf | yes, everyone is lazy except for the rich people |
| 17:39.41 | Lone_Wanderer | but if you're going to go with the "sucks to be you, life isn't fair" approach, why does it exclusively have to apply to the poor? |
| 17:39.55 | Lone_Wanderer | why can't you say "Sucks to be you, life isn't fair, so we're taking your money and giving it to the poor"? |
| 17:40.39 | dataw0lf | even if a flat tax was sustainable (it's not), thinking that someone who can barely feed their family should pay the same percentage out of their income as someone who makes 200+ grand a year is just ridiculous. |
| 17:40.52 | dataw0lf | It would widen the poverty gap even further (not that it isn't already huge to begin with) |
| 17:40.59 | dataw0lf | and that gap is a huge chasm to overcome for most people. |
| 17:41.07 | dataw0lf | it's not because they're not working hard |
| 17:41.25 | olds | if you closed all the loopholes though |
| 17:41.29 | Dezertol | but why is that the "consirn" of the people to make up that gap |
| 17:41.30 | olds | that rich people exploit |
| 17:41.39 | olds | that flat tax percentage would need to be much lower |
| 17:41.46 | Lone_Wanderer | I don't think it's that huge, dw - it's perfectly possible for someone who keeps a close watch on their finances to retire a millionaire, even if they're not making much |
| 17:41.56 | Dezertol | wouldn 't a flat tax be less then what most people pay now anyway |
| 17:42.18 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: How many times have you lived in/near poverty? It's hard to save when you're living paycheck to paycheck, which is a huge percentage of the American people. |
| 17:42.43 | Lone_Wanderer | I would argue that other factors than the tax rate are a bigger problem for poor people. That was a poorly structured sentence - you parse it, 'cause I'm not gonna fix it. |
| 17:42.54 | Dezertol | but.. a flat tax at like 10 or 15 would be half what I pay now in taxes |
| 17:43.02 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: oh I would most certainly agree |
| 17:43.07 | SunSparc | 10% of $1 is $0.10. 10% of $10,000 is $1,000. (we all know the math) The amount should not matter. |
| 17:43.12 | Lone_Wanderer | Everyone's got a million ways to make you pay. |
| 17:43.14 | macnewbold | dataw0lf: I'm curious, why do you think flat tax is unsustainable? Why do you think it is ridiculous that someone making 20K/year would pay 2K/year in taxes, while someone making 200K pays 20K/year? |
| 17:43.15 | dataw0lf | (as far as other factors being harder on poverty-stricken people) |
| 17:44.00 | Lone_Wanderer | Making financial education a mandatory part of high school curriculum would make a HUGE difference |
| 17:44.05 | Lone_Wanderer | and I don't just mean how to balance your check book |
| 17:44.05 | macnewbold | I'm just not a believer that our tax system should be a means for gov't redistribution of wealth as it currently is |
| 17:44.23 | olds | redistribution of wealth? |
| 17:44.48 | Lone_Wanderer | But that's a different argument than "Who should get taxed more" |
| 17:45.34 | dataw0lf | macnewbold: rich people aren't in the poor house because of the amount they pay |
| 17:45.40 | mgeary | Dezertol: i highly, highly doubt you're paying 20-30% in taxes |
| 17:45.40 | Lone_Wanderer | More at "What should we do with the money once we have it" |
| 17:45.41 | dataw0lf | they certainly weren't in the poor house while Clinton was in office |
| 17:45.46 | dataw0lf | In fact, they kept getting richer |
| 17:45.53 | Dezertol | Lone_Wanderer that reminds me.. one of the professors at college asked the class how many of them didn't get student loans.. and how many could have.. then he proceeded to tell them if they had and put them in a 12% ira that they'd have a bunch of money to graduate with and could just pay it all back |
| 17:45.54 | Dezertol | lol |
| 17:45.58 | dataw0lf | And we got some good social programs that allowed people to be in a position to generate more wealth |
| 17:46.04 | Lone_Wanderer | DW: Is "rich keep getting richer" really a bad thing? |
| 17:46.04 | dataw0lf | which is, y'know, good++ |
| 17:46.27 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: it's not a "bad" thing, it's just something that should be considered during taxation. |
| 17:46.55 | Lone_Wanderer | Dezertol: that's exactly what I mean - that kind of financial education would be priceless to everyone, *especially* the poor, who are really in the best position to take advantage of it. |
| 17:47.09 | Lone_Wanderer | or at least who need it most |
| 17:47.39 | olds | Dezertol: a 12% ira ? |
| 17:47.41 | mgeary | i just had my taxes done. Ignoring that our tax system is progressive, i ended up paying about 13% on my *taxable* income last year. |
| 17:47.43 | olds | I want a 12% ira |
| 17:48.19 | dataw0lf | mgeary: 28% here |
| 17:48.22 | mgeary | now, that's different from saying which is the highest tax bracket you get taxed on, but most people don't have a clue how the tax brackets work |
| 17:48.25 | dataw0lf | and you can tax me some more if you want to |
| 17:48.33 | mgeary | dataw0lf: that's your tax bracket, not the percentage you actually paid |
| 17:48.39 | dataw0lf | I love America and I'll pay out my pocket to assist Americans. |
| 17:48.43 | Lone_Wanderer | I'll see several of you tomorrow afternoon. |
| 17:48.53 | dataw0lf | mgeary: I didn't deduct anything... |
| 17:48.55 | Dezertol | I have no idea how much in taxes I actually paid.. |
| 17:48.55 | mgeary | dataw0lf: you're paying 28% on a *portion* of your *taxable* income |
| 17:48.56 | Lone_Wanderer | 2:00 right dw? |
| 17:48.59 | Dezertol | someone else does that |
| 17:49.01 | Dezertol | for me |
| 17:49.02 | Dezertol | lol |
| 17:49.05 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: tomorrow, yea. |
| 17:49.07 | Lone_Wanderer | kk later |
| 17:49.11 | dataw0lf | peace |
| 17:49.45 | mgeary | dataw0lf: well, so you took the standard deduction |
| 17:49.52 | mgeary | you didn't itemize |
| 17:49.57 | dataw0lf | yea |
| 17:50.07 | mgeary | right |
| 17:50.54 | mgeary | but even so, you're not paying 28% on all your income. Your first ~$16k is tax free, the next ~$20k is taxed at something like 10%, the next ~$40k is taxed at 15%... etc |
| 17:51.03 | dataw0lf | oh right |
| 17:51.16 | macnewbold | IMO, it is very hard to defend a position that a flat tax is unfair to anyone |
| 17:51.20 | mgeary | but that's what a ton of boneheads out there don't get |
| 17:51.27 | Dezertol | umm.. so if I made over 70K last year |
| 17:51.32 | Dezertol | how much is that |
| 17:51.43 | mgeary | Dezertol: depends on how much of that is taxed |
| 17:51.58 | mgeary | also, any tax credits come off the back-end |
| 17:52.10 | Dezertol | I konw I didn't ahve any credits |
| 17:52.38 | Dezertol | and to the best of my knowledge most of that was taxeable.. miuse the intrest in the house |
| 17:52.45 | mgeary | okay, so if you take in $70k, and you take the standard deduction, you could probably figure that out fairly easily |
| 17:53.11 | Dezertol | is there just a % that is for the 70,000 ish group |
| 17:53.18 | mgeary | also depends on if you're single or married filing jointly |
| 17:53.29 | Dezertol | married but she doesn't work |
| 17:53.30 | Dezertol | just me |
| 17:53.31 | dataw0lf | Dezertol: for the income you made in that bracket |
| 17:53.59 | dataw0lf | what mgeary is saying is, you get taxed for the income in the 10% bracket you made up to that amount, etc, climbing the progressive tax rate. |
| 17:54.14 | Dezertol | o.. |
| 17:54.24 | mgeary | yeah |
| 17:54.32 | mgeary | most people pay a much smaller percentage in taxes than they realize |
| 17:54.35 | Dezertol | is it liniar? or exponintal |
| 17:54.41 | mgeary | neither |
| 17:54.44 | Dezertol | o |
| 17:54.44 | unum | the house takes out a huge chunk of my taxes |
| 17:54.45 | mgeary | but more like exponential |
| 17:54.52 | Dezertol | lol |
| 17:55.02 | mgeary | unum: right, being able to deduct mortgage interest is a great benefit |
| 17:55.07 | mgeary | but only if you itemize |
| 17:55.10 | dataw0lf | so the income you made up to the equivalent of the guy who washes your car, you're both being taxed the same. |
| 17:55.12 | Dezertol | I wouldn't be oposed to an exponential rate.. |
| 17:55.14 | Dezertol | if it was static |
| 17:55.19 | unum | I think my tax rate dropped by about 30% when I bought the house |
| 17:55.24 | Dezertol | so you knew what you where getting into |
| 17:56.29 | unum | hmm I should look up what percentage I actually paid of my income in taxes |
| 17:56.48 | unum | including the secret 7.5% that my employer pays |
| 17:56.58 | Dezertol | one of these days.. I'll need to learn to do all that |
| 17:57.06 | Dezertol | file my own taxes and stuff |
| 17:57.08 | Dezertol | just in case.. |
| 17:57.44 | Dezertol | me to |
| 17:57.44 | dataw0lf | my family's accountant just did mine <3 |
| 17:57.47 | mgeary | used to be $70, but we've done some things lately to make our taxes more complicated |
| 17:57.56 | Dezertol | ya.. family's accountant also |
| 17:57.57 | mgeary | dataw0lf: nice |
| 17:57.57 | dataw0lf | that's called my family's socialist program for relatives. |
| 17:58.04 | Dezertol | my dad has a construction company |
| 17:58.20 | unum | ya my parents accountant did mine until I was 23 or so |
| 17:58.21 | Dezertol | so I just tacked all mine and my business in |
| 17:58.22 | Dezertol | lol |
| 17:58.27 | Dezertol | got them doen for free |
| 17:58.27 | Dezertol | lol |
| 17:59.49 | dataw0lf | my parents accountant is going to be doing mine until the will reading. |
| 18:18.05 | mindjuju | anybody here heard of Other world computing or Macgurus ? |
| 18:21.42 | mindjuju | :) |
| 18:22.00 | mindjuju | how long you going to be in town dataw0lf? |
| 18:22.17 | mgeary | mindjuju: i have |
| 18:22.21 | mgeary | OWC |
| 18:22.36 | mindjuju | good things about OWC? |
| 18:25.46 | dataw0lf | mindjuju: Friday - Sunday |
| 18:26.13 | mindjuju | way cool! |
| 18:28.50 | mgeary | mindjuju: i bought stuff from them long ago |
| 18:29.02 | mgeary | no complaints |
| 19:38.41 | utahcon | it's been more than an hour since anyone talked. |
| 19:40.02 | utahcon | crazy |
| 19:40.07 | utahcon | I ate lunch\ |
| 19:44.43 | mgeary | ~lunch |
| 19:44.44 | jbot | it has been said that lunch is a nightmare in the Mensa |
| 19:44.49 | mgeary | hah |
| 19:53.37 | itimber | hey guys |
| 19:53.48 | itimber | does number_format() have probs rounding?? |
| 19:54.39 | itimber | by probs, I mean does it not consistently round anything >=.5 up, and anything <.5 down |
| 19:55.03 | itimber | I'm finding very small errors on very large dollar amounts |
| 19:55.17 | itimber | :/ |
| 19:57.19 | mgeary | ~superman 3 |
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| 20:05.38 | unum | itimber: it might use round to even |
| 20:05.52 | unum | I know most c++ compilers do |
| 20:05.57 | itimber | that's what I'm thinking |
| 20:06.07 | itimber | but I have many returned values that are odd |
| 20:06.10 | itimber | *shrug |
| 20:06.16 | itimber | going to just floor them all |
| 20:06.33 | unum | you can do floor($x+.5) |
| 20:06.42 | itimber | number_format(floor($x+.5)) |
| 20:06.44 | itimber | right |
| 20:10.06 | DexterTheDragon | why not just use round() |
| 20:11.15 | *** topic/#UPHPU by mindjuju -> Meeting Next Thursday @ 7pm | Fun with SQL - presented by Joshua Tolley - eggyknap | Utah PHP Users Group | UPHPU.org |
| 20:11.33 | mindjuju | k, i admit it, i'm big time guilty of that eggyknap, though I am getting better |
| 20:11.51 | eggyknap | Hrm? |
| 20:12.15 | mindjuju | your promo for next weeks meeting - |
| 20:12.16 | mindjuju | SQL is a strange language -- strange enough that most programmers learn only |
| 20:12.16 | mindjuju | enough to get by. This technique is enough for the casual hacker to land a job, |
| 20:12.16 | mindjuju | but leaves much of SQL's power underused. |
| 20:12.53 | mindjuju | Given a sufficiently complex task, the same hacker will spend hours trying to write a workable query, only to end up with something that takes three days to complete, or to give up entirely and write the logic into application-side code. |
| 20:13.17 | mindjuju | that's awesome |
| 20:14.25 | josephscott | sometimes it's a good thing move some of the work to the application side |
| 20:14.45 | mindjuju | true that, but i think it can be abused too |
| 20:14.56 | eggyknap | heh |
| 20:15.28 | josephscott | it's often easier to scale out application level code than DBs |
| 20:15.41 | mgeary | agreed |
| 20:15.51 | mgeary | that's my philosophy: lite DB, heavier code |
| 20:16.35 | josephscott | throwing another front end web server up is much easier to manage than dealing with additional DB replication issues |
| 20:16.45 | eggyknap | There are such times.. but the DB is often a lot better at processing loads of data then, say, your PHP. |
| 20:17.11 | josephscott | not if I've got 20 web servers and only 1 or 2 DB servers |
| 20:17.38 | josephscott | it's easier to spread the load on web servers than it is for DBs |
| 20:18.43 | eggyknap | Oh, definitely. It's just that a bunch of the time the load required to make the DB do a particular job is a fraction of the load required to make your application do it. |
| 20:19.11 | josephscott | right, the question you have to ask is if that's important though |
| 20:19.54 | eggyknap | The big argument against doing it in the DB is that most of the time, you've got one DBA and hundreds of programmers, so maintaining code in the DB is painful. |
| 20:20.11 | josephscott | given job Y, the DB can do it in 1 second and the web server in 10 seconds, and could be done either way, how many of those until it becomes more painful to scale up the DB instead of distributing across web servers |
| 20:21.19 | josephscott | that sounds like a bogus argument, if you need more DBAs, then you hire more DBAs |
| 20:21.42 | josephscott | I'm not talking about code management, I mean scaling an application up to deal with increased demands |
| 20:21.57 | eggyknap | In my experience, people already have programmers sitting on their thumbs, and two really hassled dbas. |
| 20:22.05 | josephscott | site/app that goes from 100k page views per day to 10million |
| 20:22.12 | eggyknap | But your point still stands -- scaling web servers is loads easier than scaling databases |
| 20:22.46 | josephscott | if a company hired people with the wrong skill set then that's the companies problem, not a technical issue |
| 20:23.52 | josephscott | believe me, if we'd had this conversation a dozen years ago I'd totally argue against moving work from the DB to the app layer |
| 20:26.09 | eggyknap | DBAs tend to be more expensive than other programmer types |
| 20:27.08 | josephscott | and if you have an app that is never going to have more than 100 concurrent users you probably never need to worry about scaling issues anyway, so you may as well make things nicer from the architecture point of view and push some stuff into the DB |
| 20:27.45 | josephscott | important to figure out what you requirements/challenges are and build accordingly |
| 20:27.55 | jsmith | eggyknap: And for good reason! |
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| 20:28.18 | josephscott | eggyknap: then you probably aren't paying your programmers enough :-) |
| 20:28.33 | _psychic_ | imho putting business logic in your storage layer makes things harder to work with |
| 20:28.35 | jsmith | eggyknap: Programmers tend to use poor database techniques (no foreign keys, non-normalized data, no understanding of database transactions, etc.) |
| 20:28.54 | SunSparc | What the?! GhostRadio? |
| 20:28.55 | jsmith | _psychic_: Which is *precisely* one of my arguments *for* putting it in the DB |
| 20:29.09 | _psychic_ | harder to work with is better? |
| 20:29.18 | jsmith | _psychic_: So junior henchmen that don't know how to do it correctly won't bother messing with it |
| 20:29.29 | _psychic_ | fire them |
| 20:29.36 | SunSparc | ~welcome GhostRadio \ |
| 20:29.36 | jbot | [all in unison] Hi, GhostRadio \! |
| 20:29.57 | GhostRadio | yo |
| 20:30.04 | DexterTheDragon | so you make life harder for a better programmer , instead of just keeping an eye on junior coders |
| 20:31.31 | _psychic_ | logic in the db is less portable, hard to debug, hard to get in scm, etc. |
| 20:32.41 | _psychic_ | especially if you've got an app that's got most of the blogic somewhere else |
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| 20:33.16 | josephscott | jsmith: funny thing is, some of those "poor database techniques" are required for huge scale apps |
| 20:34.11 | macnewbold | yeah, a lot of large scale data operations (data warehousing comes to mind) use schemas that one would never use in a normal app. star and snowflake schemas drive me batty |
| 20:34.22 | macnewbold | ~gollum josephscott |
| 20:34.37 | eggyknap | Violating normalization rules, etc., doesn't mean making the programmers do everything |
| 20:35.07 | jsmith | josephscott: I 100% agree with you... but they should only be done as needed, not as a course of habit |
| 20:35.35 | josephscott | as I mentioned earlier: important to figure out what you requirements/challenges are and build accordingly |
| 20:35.50 | jsmith | I've interviewed *way* too many programmers who think they understand databases and don't even know what a foreign key is |
| 20:35.54 | josephscott | if your habit is to build huge scale apps, then you better being doing it as a course of habit :-) |
| 20:36.14 | josephscott | jsmith: sadly mysql has not helped that situation |
| 20:36.17 | jsmith | and of the ones I ended up hiring, too many have screwed things up |
| 20:36.28 | josephscott | not knowing what a foreign key is sounds kinda scary |
| 20:36.29 | jsmith | josephscott: Again, we're in 100% agreement. Friends don't let friends use MySQL. |
| 20:36.51 | jsmith | josephscott: Then again, more than 80% of the so-called programmers I've interviewed couldn't write a function that concatenated two strings |
| 20:36.58 | jsmith | josephscott: (in the language of their choice!) |
| 20:37.04 | josephscott | hehe, I'm a fan of PostgreSQL, but current job is all MySQL |
| 20:37.29 | jsmith | Unfortunately, my current job involves neither programming nor databases :-( |
| 20:37.30 | eggyknap | josephscott: then I no longer have a disagreement -- I'd not let MySQL wipe my .... |
| 20:37.31 | josephscott | haha, you need a function for that? :P |
| 20:37.57 | jsmith | josephscott: No... but if a programmer can't figure out how to write a function to do it, they're not getting hired by me. |
| 20:38.10 | synic | we are currently switching to postgres, hooray |
| 20:38.14 | dataw0lf | jsmith: wha... seriously? |
| 20:38.23 | jsmith | dataw0lf: Serious as a heart attack. |
| 20:38.25 | dataw0lf | what's up with all these applicants who don't know how to concat a string? |
| 20:38.29 | utahcon | jsmith: that is sad. |
| 20:38.43 | dataw0lf | something must be in the 4chan waters or something. |
| 20:38.58 | eggyknap | The stimulus money didn't get in quick enough for 'em to get jobs as road sign holders, so they're applying for other stuff. |
| 20:39.04 | jsmith | dataw0lf: Now, granted most of these were for entry-level programming positions... but the job application *and* the invitation to interview both specified that the candidate must have relevant programming experience |
| 20:39.17 | *** part/#uphpu GhostRadio (n=jbuhler@173.8.91.177) |
| 20:39.23 | josephscott | I doubt I could remember how to concat a string if I had to do it assembly |
| 20:39.26 | dataw0lf | jsmith: well "entry-level" doesn't mean "clueless" |
| 20:39.36 | utahcon | jsmith: even entry-level should know string functions |
| 20:39.58 | utahcon | hmm |
| 20:40.34 | dataw0lf | I don't think I've ever heard a question in an interview about "concatting strings" whew. If someone asked me that I might just walk out in disgust. |
| 20:41.27 | dataw0lf | One of my entry-level questions that I use a lot is: "Write a function that takes any string and returns the pig latin equivalent." |
| 20:42.01 | utahcon | What if someone doesn't know what pig latin is? |
| 20:42.15 | jsmith | dataw0lf: So, I'd first ask them which language they're most proficient in... then I'd ask them to write the string function. More than half would pick a different language to write the function in. |
| 20:42.23 | dataw0lf | jsmith: haha, seriously? |
| 20:42.25 | dataw0lf | awesome. |
| 20:42.35 | dataw0lf | utahcon: never run into anyone who doesn't know what pig latin is. |
| 20:42.40 | jsmith | dataw0lf: I could go on and on... it's as bad as the stories you read on thedailywtf.com |
| 20:42.45 | dataw0lf | jsmith: haha wow man. |
| 20:43.01 | synic | those are some pretty high standards |
| 20:43.03 | utahcon | dataw0lf: if could happen. |
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| 20:43.21 | utahcon | jsmith: You mean you want people who can actually do the job? |
| 20:43.54 | dataw0lf | I wouldn't even say that a person who knows how to concat a string is someone who can perform an entry-level programming job... |
| 20:43.55 | jsmith | utahcon: Typically yes... unless I'm planning on moving jobs soon, and then I try to backfill my job with morons. OF COURSE I WANT PEOPLE WHO CAN DO THE JOB! |
| 20:44.02 | dataw0lf | I guess it's a good BS filter though. |
| 20:44.08 | jsmith | dataw0lf: Exactly. |
| 20:44.14 | dataw0lf | save yourself some time |
| 20:44.14 | utahcon | calm down jsmith I know. |
| 20:44.15 | josephscott | jsmith: almost afraid to ask, where do you work? |
| 20:44.35 | jsmith | josephscott: I work for Digium... the company behind Asterisk (the open-source telecommunications platform) |
| 20:44.49 | jsmith | josephscott: I run their training department |
| 20:45.04 | dataw0lf | jsmith: I wonder if the high profile open sourceness of your company attracts the wingnuts. |
| 20:45.18 | jsmith | dataw0lf: These interviews were not for Digium |
| 20:45.19 | utahcon | wingnuts... that is grand |
| 20:45.31 | dataw0lf | jsmith: oh wow |
| 20:45.34 | dataw0lf | hmm |
| 20:45.38 | jsmith | dataw0lf: Here, you'd need to know how to write multi-threaded applications just to be considered |
| 20:45.39 | josephscott | we've had our own fair share of goofs apply for jobs, we had a sysadmin position open up and had people apply who couldn't figure out how to get WordPress installed on a empty linux box |
| 20:45.47 | dataw0lf | jsmith: haha, I'd hope so. |
| 20:46.11 | utahcon | josephscott: I can do it! Did it twice last night. |
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| 20:46.24 | jsmith | josephscott: Been there too... "I wanna be a Linux sysadmin, but I don't know which command I'd use to change my password" |
| 20:46.27 | josephscott | hehe, needless to say none of those folks got the job :-) |
| 20:47.05 | utahcon | I always think I know nothing... then I meet people who truly know nothing, and I am amazed at what I know. |
| 20:47.09 | dataw0lf | oh man sys admin applicants are the worst, I'll agree with that. |
| 20:47.20 | dataw0lf | just because you managed to install Gentoo doesn't mean you're a "sys admin" |
| 20:47.34 | dataw0lf | just because you've run your own personal email server doesn't you're a "sys admin" |
| 20:50.28 | SunSparc | I know how to turn on IIS. Can I be a sys admin? |
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| 20:50.55 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v Lone_Wanderer] by ChanServ |
| 20:51.38 | josephscott | SunSparc: only if you know how to reboot the windows box as well :-) |
| 20:51.39 | dataw0lf | hey LW you gotta be a ninja, I got the #uphpu pirate role covered. |
| 20:51.50 | SunSparc | heh |
| 20:52.23 | *** join/#uphpu redroy (n=kenner@69.169.153.60.provo.static.broadweave.net) |
| 20:52.24 | SunSparc | josephscott: Oh yes, I got that down too. |
| 20:53.21 | utahcon | to reboot windows install any patch, or software |
| 20:54.39 | SunSparc | You actually could not pay me enough to sys admin a Windows environment. |
| 20:55.34 | Dezertol | o.. comeon.. excange server is your friend |
| 20:55.39 | dataw0lf | I hear that. Even the hetero networks I've run with few Windows boxes just piss me off because of the crap you have to do to fit them into the network / systems schema. |
| 20:56.36 | DexterTheDragon | ~poor mindjuju |
| 20:56.50 | fungus | ~exchange-- |
| 20:57.01 | SunSparc | ~Exchange-- |
| 20:57.20 | supernovia | Goodness. |
| 20:57.29 | dataw0lf | ~exchange-- |
| 20:57.37 | dataw0lf | far be it for me not to jump on a hate bandwagon. |
| 20:57.38 | Dezertol | what.. Exchange is like the best thing to happen since.. well.. umm... |
| 20:57.46 | SunSparc | dataw0lf: lol |
| 20:58.03 | SunSparc | Dezertol: cancer? |
| 20:58.13 | supernovia | Hi guys! Sounds like I missed a fun conversation. Busy day :-p |
| 20:58.21 | Dezertol | lol |
| 20:58.28 | DexterTheDragon | ~karma exchange |
| 20:58.28 | jbot | exchange has karma of -4 |
| 20:58.33 | SunSparc | supernovia: Nah, just an impromptu MS bashing. |
| 20:58.35 | supernovia | ~exchange -- |
| 20:58.39 | supernovia | oops. |
| 20:58.44 | supernovia | ~exchange-- |
| 20:58.49 | supernovia | spasy fingers like to hit the spacebar |
| 20:58.52 | Dezertol | only thing better then Exchange.. is Exchange & the Blackberry server combo |
| 20:58.54 | SunSparc | :) |
| 20:59.08 | herlo | ~exchange-- |
| 20:59.11 | SunSparc | Wow! The negative karma rush is amazing. |
| 20:59.12 | Dezertol | lol |
| 20:59.14 | supernovia | hehe |
| 20:59.18 | herlo | ~karma exchange |
| 20:59.18 | jbot | exchange has karma of -6 |
| 20:59.24 | supernovia | w00t |
| 20:59.26 | herlo | it's not low enough |
| 20:59.29 | dataw0lf | I think we have a bunch of systems guys in here who have actually had to deal with Exchange |
| 20:59.32 | DexterTheDragon | ~karma ie |
| 20:59.32 | jbot | ie has karma of -9 |
| 20:59.36 | SunSparc | Yeah, it needs to be -666 |
| 20:59.41 | Dezertol | lol |
| 20:59.44 | dataw0lf | SunSparc: haha |
| 20:59.49 | fungus | I actually run two exchange servers. |
| 20:59.50 | Dezertol | ya.. I have 0 love for that pos |
| 21:00.00 | fungus | I *hate* them both. |
| 21:00.05 | supernovia | hehe |
| 21:00.29 | dataw0lf | ~Entourage-- |
| 21:00.29 | Dezertol | actually... come to think of it.. I don't know anyone that has worked with exchange that actually "likes" it |
| 21:00.32 | Dezertol | funny that.. |
| 21:00.35 | fungus | Can't get the top floor to give up their blackberry/exchange integration |
| 21:00.36 | supernovia | I don't mind it with the hosting stuff. Since we dont' offer it here :) |
| 21:00.51 | supernovia | "Sure, I'll point your MX records out and let YOU deal with it ;-))" |
| 21:01.04 | dataw0lf | fungus: yea, that's definitely the one thing that always kills moving from Exchange. Suit-love. |
| 21:01.35 | Dezertol | make them admin the box for a week |
| 21:01.36 | Dezertol | lol |
| 21:01.44 | Dezertol | they'll be willing to listen to reason |
| 21:01.45 | Dezertol | lol |
| 21:02.08 | dataw0lf | they'll lose their ability to think logically, nothing will be reasonable at that point. |
| 21:02.10 | Dezertol | only takes one currupted mail store |
| 21:02.11 | Dezertol | lol |
| 21:02.20 | SunSparc | ha! seriously |
| 21:02.23 | Dezertol | lol |
| 21:03.35 | dataw0lf | SunSparc: good call. |
| 21:03.44 | supernovia | me too. High fives for NT Server 4 in the Enterprise Certification! |
| 21:03.45 | dataw0lf | Microsoft certs on a resume are a negative when I interview. |
| 21:03.50 | SunSparc | dataw0lf: One of the best I ever made. |
| 21:04.00 | SunSparc | supernovia: heh |
| 21:04.05 | supernovia | back in the day :-D |
| 21:04.16 | dataw0lf | "man you may as well put 'Graduate of Joe's Burger Flipping School'" |
| 21:04.40 | SunSparc | dataw0lf: I had not thought of that. |
| 21:04.50 | dataw0lf | haha |
| 21:04.55 | Dezertol | had one of my old *nix admins hang up on a guy that said he had his mcse |
| 21:04.56 | Dezertol | lol |
| 21:05.02 | supernovia | hehe, yeah I left mine off since I wouldn't touch em with a 10 foot pole anyway :) |
| 21:05.04 | dataw0lf | another good call, SunSparc. You're on a roll today, sir! |
| 21:05.07 | Dezertol | he was paying for hosting and wanted a local dsn entry |
| 21:05.08 | Dezertol | lol |
| 21:05.09 | SunSparc | Woot! |
| 21:05.30 | supernovia | lol Dezertol |
| 21:05.57 | Dezertol | it was actually quite funny |
| 21:07.14 | Lone_Wanderer | dw: I'm not sure what I should make jbot say to greet a ninja. |
| 21:07.29 | supernovia | ~seen Utah-Dave |
| 21:07.33 | jbot | i haven't seen 'utah-dave', supernovia |
| 21:07.35 | supernovia | does he have a dash or not? I can't remember |
| 21:07.41 | supernovia | ~seen UtahDave |
| 21:07.42 | jbot | utahdave <n=a11cfec7@astra.techwareit.com> was last seen on IRC in channel #uphpu, 562d 4h 29m 13s ago, saying: 'thebigdog, you gonna work with mac?'. |
| 21:07.48 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: KARATE CHOP! ? |
| 21:07.51 | DexterTheDragon | ~seen Utah_Dave |
| 21:07.52 | jbot | utah_dave <n=David@72-166-51-162.dia.static.qwest.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #uphpu, 20h 48m 59s ago, saying: 'night everyone'. |
| 21:07.57 | dataw0lf | GO GO NINJA STAR? |
| 21:07.59 | supernovia | There we go. Thanks man. |
| 21:08.27 | Lone_Wanderer | If I want to make a site that lets people sign up for their own site (separate from the site they used to sign up on...) |
| 21:08.42 | supernovia | Thanks to mgeary and Mrs. SunSparc I've got 2 computers and 4 sets of peripherals for next Tuesday. Wish me luck :-D |
| 21:08.57 | Lone_Wanderer | and then everything gets auto-created (a vhost, with a skeleton framework etc.) is there anything out there that does this kind of thing? |
| 21:09.29 | supernovia | like cPanel + whmcs? |
| 21:09.51 | supernovia | only preferably open source I'm guessing? |
| 21:10.00 | Lone_Wanderer | open source would be good |
| 21:10.45 | SunSparc | supernovia: Good luck |
| 21:10.54 | olds | s/saves/waves |
| 21:11.03 | Lone_Wanderer | For a second I thought you were saving me. |
| 21:11.07 | supernovia | we've used lots of systems like that over the years & are happy with the cPanel + whmcs combo. I have to go to a play practice here in a minute but when I'm back (if I'm back in time) I'll be happy to review others you may have used |
| 21:11.11 | olds | :) |
| 21:11.12 | Lone_Wanderer | Now I see that you don't actually care, you're just bidding me farewell :'( |
| 21:11.17 | olds | yes |
| 21:11.20 | supernovia | seriously. why not save him olds ? |
| 21:11.24 | dataw0lf | olds: you gonna be at the lunch tomorrow? |
| 21:11.32 | supernovia | er, review others you may be interested in. Sheesh. |
| 21:11.35 | olds | dataw0lf: planning on it |
| 21:11.35 | Lone_Wanderer | supernovia: cool |
| 21:11.41 | dataw0lf | olds: sweet. |
| 21:11.46 | dataw0lf | supernovia: Jews don't believe in saving. |
| 21:11.53 | supernovia | sure they do! |
| 21:11.53 | olds | haha |
| 21:12.22 | Lone_Wanderer | supernovia: whmcs.com? |
| 21:12.38 | supernovia | yup |
| 21:12.59 | Lone_Wanderer | cool, I'll check it out. Thanks :) |
| 21:13.08 | supernovia | that's the billing end of things and it can interface with whatever user panel you're using. I like whmcs best out of the ones we've used |
| 21:13.33 | Lone_Wanderer | Oh cool, it's got a provisioning thing already. |
| 21:13.46 | supernovia | Yup. It's fairly handy. And a support system and some reporting and and and.. |
| 21:13.50 | supernovia | and it's not that expensive either. |
| 21:14.03 | Lone_Wanderer | nice |
| 21:14.11 | Lone_Wanderer | ok, back to work |
| 21:15.08 | supernovia | yup. back to school for me now. Take care guys + whatever other non guy might be here. |
| 21:15.33 | supernovia | and thanks again SunSparc & mgeary ;-) |
| 21:15.40 | SunSparc | np |
| 21:19.07 | dataw0lf | a yellow bird, with a yellow bill, was sitting on, my windowsill |
| 21:22.49 | SunSparc | That sounds like quite a rhythmic experience. |
| 21:23.05 | dataw0lf | was trying to lure LW into singing cadence with me.. |
| 21:23.21 | SunSparc | ~wake Lone_Wanderer |
| 21:23.22 | jbot | ACTION throws a barrel-full of ice water on Lone_Wanderer and shouts "GOOD MORNING!!!!" |
| 21:23.33 | dataw0lf | I live in the barrio now so when I run in the morning and yell cadence I get a lot of very, very weird looks |
| 21:23.50 | SunSparc | heh |
| 21:24.20 | SunSparc | probably be even better with a squad of people |
| 21:24.56 | dataw0lf | oh, of course. |
| 21:25.19 | dataw0lf | running through small German towns carrying rubber duckies screaming about smashing people's heads in, yea, uh, it's pretty scary for the Germans. |
| 21:25.47 | SunSparc | I could imagine. |
| 21:26.21 | dataw0lf | although when I returned from Iraq they had prohibited off-base running due to the high level of protesters who're always outside the bases. |
| 21:27.13 | SunSparc | Bases are not the correct place to be protesting anyway. Not that most protesters understand that. |
| 21:28.00 | dataw0lf | well. foreign bases in your country which're primarily used to staged deployments to the war you're opposed to... I can understand it. |
| 21:28.09 | SunSparc | I am more and more convinced that it should be a requirement that every American be required to live at least 1 month in a third world country by their 18th birthday. |
| 21:28.31 | olds | 1 month? |
| 21:28.37 | SunSparc | At the very least. |
| 21:28.41 | olds | how about 2 years |
| 21:28.48 | dataw0lf | 2 years I'd be down with |
| 21:28.52 | SunSparc | That would be good. |
| 21:29.03 | dataw0lf | I think it's an excellent idea, but, uh, kinda socialist there SunSparc ;-) |
| 21:29.16 | SunSparc | American's on average, I would venture a guess, have no idea what a good life they have. |
| 21:29.24 | olds | I've spent 6 weeks in the past year in 3rd world countries |
| 21:29.26 | olds | on vacation |
| 21:29.33 | SunSparc | dataw0lf: heh, yes, but I can be socialist while I am dreaming. ;) |
| 21:29.37 | olds | 1 month is too short |
| 21:29.39 | dataw0lf | haha. |
| 21:29.57 | SunSparc | :) |
| 21:30.29 | dataw0lf | hehe |
| 21:30.33 | SunSparc | lol |
| 21:30.58 | dataw0lf | olds: where was the last place you went? |
| 21:31.23 | SunSparc | Have you guys seen "Taken" yet? |
| 21:31.26 | dataw0lf | yup |
| 21:31.38 | SunSparc | Good flick |
| 21:31.43 | dataw0lf | yea pretty intense |
| 21:31.56 | redroy | Hey everyone... is it "best practice" to only use HAVING (mysql) if you're grouping or aliasing? |
| 21:32.10 | SunSparc | Took the wife to see that. Made her momentarily reconsider our upcoming trip. |
| 21:32.10 | redroy | Taken was awesome |
| 21:32.51 | dataw0lf | I like when he's electrocuting the guy |
| 21:32.55 | dataw0lf | and he gives the little speech |
| 21:33.24 | dataw0lf | "here? you can flick a switch and the power stays on all day." |
| 21:33.37 | olds | dataw0lf: Cambodia/Laos |
| 21:33.53 | dataw0lf | olds: oh nice. |
| 21:33.56 | olds | about 10 days in each |
| 21:33.57 | SunSparc | olds: Your pictures of that trip were good |
| 21:33.59 | dataw0lf | think you told me that. |
| 21:34.05 | SunSparc | dataw0lf: Yeah, that seen was intense |
| 21:34.07 | dataw0lf | yea, I remember the pictures. |
| 21:34.15 | dataw0lf | pretty awesome pics. |
| 21:34.19 | dataw0lf | SunSparc: yea |
| 21:34.24 | redroy | Never mind on the question... I found a good answer online. |
| 21:35.38 | SunSparc | I do not love killing and violence (although it is often gratifying in movies) but in that movie, I honestly felt like each one of those bad guys deserved everything they got. |
| 21:36.06 | dataw0lf | I'm kinda a fan so it was just gravy for me. |
| 21:36.41 | SunSparc | I would not mind developing some of those defensive skills though. |
| 21:37.00 | dataw0lf | looked mostly like krav maga to me. |
| 21:37.00 | SunSparc | That is one reason I own a gun |
| 21:37.53 | dataw0lf | IDF martial art, only one I have any experience in. |
| 21:38.07 | dataw0lf | the basic tenets are "pick up something dangerous and stab/bust it over the opponent's head" |
| 21:38.13 | SunSparc | How apropos for the movie. |
| 21:38.47 | SunSparc | Heh, that is a pretty good basic tenet. |
| 21:41.00 | dataw0lf | yea, they teach a lot of disarming techniques too, but it's focus is to disable/kill someone as quickly as possible. |
| 21:41.13 | dataw0lf | lot of elbow/knee kicks and simple locks |
| 21:42.39 | dataw0lf | any move is just to either disable the person for the length of the fight or set them up for a killing/disabling blow with a weapon, or if you're unfortunate, neck break or something similar |
| 21:43.22 | SunSparc | Sounds effective |
| 21:44.03 | dataw0lf | the IDF turns "effective" into an artform ;-) |
| 21:45.57 | dataw0lf | when we did krav maga training with them, they'd make us run 6 miles then immediately spar against multiple opponents |
| 21:46.13 | SunSparc | wow |
| 21:46.13 | dataw0lf | or they'd tie your leg and arm together and make you try to fight a trainer |
| 21:46.24 | dataw0lf | it's pretty ridiculous |
| 21:46.44 | SunSparc | Probably really enhances your awareness rapidly. |
| 21:46.51 | dataw0lf | a class is basically just getting beaten up by an IDF trainer for a couple hours |
| 21:47.14 | dataw0lf | yea, reactions increase really quickly when you're in adverse situations like that |
| 21:48.33 | SunSparc | Probably why they do it that way. |
| 21:49.43 | SunSparc | http://is.gd/n5QS |
| 22:07.25 | SunSparc | http://change-congress.org/ |
| 22:07.30 | Lone_Wanderer | A LITTLE BIRD! |
| 22:07.37 | Lone_Wanderer | WITH A YELLOW BILL! |
| 22:07.46 | Lone_Wanderer | olds: I lived in Morocco when I was 5 - 7 years old |
| 22:08.24 | Lone_Wanderer | It was an invaluable experience for the whole family. |
| 22:09.00 | olds | I lived in Spain, Turkey, Panama, and England growing up |
| 22:09.02 | SunSparc | Lone_Wanderer: And you are probably a better citizen for it. |
| 22:09.10 | Lone_Wanderer | Definitely. |
| 22:09.17 | Lone_Wanderer | olds: cool |
| 22:09.27 | olds | definitely a different perspective on things |
| 22:09.30 | Lone_Wanderer | yeah |
| 22:09.57 | Lone_Wanderer | Especially in a state where most people never leave their home town except to proselyte for two years, then come home |
| 22:10.14 | SunSparc | Yep |
| 22:10.48 | SunSparc | You learn a lot of tolerance and gain a lot of perspective venturing outside your home town, state, and country. |
| 22:10.49 | Lone_Wanderer | Or, rather, how genuine the experience is - I can't help but thinking that being there as a missionary colors your perception in ways that just traveling doesn't. |
| 22:11.18 | SunSparc | I think missionary work is a lot more intimate. |
| 22:11.31 | SunSparc | Merely traveling is not the same. |
| 22:11.38 | SunSparc | Usually. |
| 22:11.41 | Dezertol | I can't speak for anyone but myself.. but I served mine in the phillippines |
| 22:11.50 | SunSparc | Ako rin. |
| 22:11.53 | Dezertol | didn't have electricity or running water for most of it |
| 22:11.55 | *** join/#uphpu strick9 (n=safetytr@69.27.21.250) |
| 22:12.03 | Lone_Wanderer | Do you speak Tagalog? |
| 22:12.08 | SunSparc | Oo nga |
| 22:12.17 | Dezertol | ya tho.. it's been some years |
| 22:12.27 | Dezertol | I moved to phoneix right when I got home |
| 22:12.33 | Lone_Wanderer | I want to learn Tagalog |
| 22:12.36 | Dezertol | and only moved back to utah a year or so ago |
| 22:13.10 | SunSparc | Meronong ko mag-salita ng wikang Filipino. |
| 22:13.32 | SunSparc | Lone_Wanderer: Try Pimsleur. They have a good system. |
| 22:13.38 | Dezertol | lol |
| 22:13.44 | Dezertol | man.. it's been a long time |
| 22:14.05 | Dezertol | I don't even dare type back a responce for fear it will be all mispelled and jacked up |
| 22:14.06 | Dezertol | lo |
| 22:14.12 | SunSparc | Dezertol: Saan sa Pilipinas na mag-serve ka? |
| 22:14.24 | Dezertol | bagio city |
| 22:14.40 | Dezertol | up north |
| 22:14.50 | SunSparc | Ah, not really a Tagalog city. |
| 22:14.59 | Dezertol | Illacano |
| 22:15.05 | Dezertol | but.. we learned Tagalog anyway |
| 22:15.17 | SunSparc | Yeah, that's right. Wen ng rud. |
| 22:15.23 | SunSparc | Ah |
| 22:15.23 | Dezertol | lol |
| 22:15.37 | Dezertol | I only learned enough illacano to get a coke and a ride |
| 22:15.37 | Dezertol | lol |
| 22:15.38 | SunSparc | That is about the extent of my Illocano |
| 22:15.43 | SunSparc | lol, yeah |
| 22:15.53 | SunSparc | 100+ dialects, makes it a challenge. |
| 22:18.51 | Lone_Wanderer | Illacano? |
| 22:19.04 | Lone_Wanderer | 100+ dialects? Maybe I don't want to learn Tagalog... |
| 22:19.11 | SunSparc | Heh |
| 22:19.36 | Lone_Wanderer | ok, going home, later all |
| 22:19.37 | SunSparc | Well, Tagalog is the national language (although there are a great number of people that want to change that to Cebuano). |
| 22:20.53 | Dezertol | I do know that they taught english in all the schools |
| 22:21.10 | Dezertol | so most "kids" had a fair understanding of english |
| 22:21.26 | Dezertol | tho.. you sometimes had to talk with a phillipno accent |
| 22:21.27 | Dezertol | lol |
| 22:22.11 | SunSparc | Yep, most nations teach multiple languages (usually english). America makes it optional. |
| 22:22.29 | dataw0lf | SunSparc: think it should be mandatory? |
| 22:22.33 | SunSparc | Beautiful country though, the Philippines. |
| 22:22.46 | Dezertol | me personally.. I'd like to learn german |
| 22:22.47 | Dezertol | lol |
| 22:22.56 | dataw0lf | vas ist los? |
| 22:23.17 | mgeary | s/vas/was/ |
| 22:23.23 | SunSparc | dataw0lf: I hate making things mandatory. That takes away freedom. But learning another languages is highly valuable if for nothing more than helping someone have a broader perspective on life. |
| 22:23.35 | dataw0lf | mgeary: ... was about to apologize for the spelling |
| 22:23.48 | dataw0lf | SunSparc: I agree it's definitely valuable |
| 22:23.49 | SunSparc | I am using Pimsleur to brush up on my German right now actually. |
| 22:24.01 | dataw0lf | haha, seriously, mgeary? |
| 22:24.04 | dataw0lf | I probably knew that already. |
| 22:24.04 | mgeary | yep |
| 22:24.07 | dataw0lf | that's awesome. |
| 22:24.09 | SunSparc | mgeary: had immersive training |
| 22:24.25 | mgeary | i did, though i'd had 9 years of german before my mission |
| 22:24.26 | dataw0lf | me too I just picked up 4 phrases |
| 22:24.39 | SunSparc | mgeary: Nice |
| 22:24.44 | dataw0lf | although I was able to speak fluently to taxi drivers when I was completely wasted and needed to get back to base. |
| 22:24.56 | SunSparc | dataw0lf: Heh, 4 is good. |
| 22:25.04 | mgeary | dataw0lf: i think the more alcohol consumed, the more all languages sound the same |
| 22:25.12 | dataw0lf | my sergeant told me once that I gave full directions back to Pioneer kasern |
| 22:25.21 | SunSparc | Nice. |
| 22:25.33 | unum | suddenly my degree in goverment and technology doesn't seem out of place |
| 22:26.00 | Dezertol | lol |
| 22:28.04 | mgeary | german lit is the bomb |
| 22:28.39 | SunSparc | I want to get fluent enough to read the Bible. I hear the German version is the closest to the original. |
| 22:28.46 | SunSparc | Although, I also want to learn Hebrew |
| 22:28.50 | Dezertol | mosty.. |
| 22:28.54 | mgeary | yeah, Luther's translation is reputed to be very accurate |
| 22:29.04 | dataw0lf | SunSparc: I'm taking the Rosetta Stone Arabic lessons, really fun stuff. |
| 22:29.24 | SunSparc | dataw0lf: Nice! I have heard good things about Rosetta. |
| 22:29.34 | Dezertol | I want it so I can understand the radio announcers on TechnoBase.fm |
| 22:29.35 | Dezertol | lol |
| 22:29.46 | SunSparc | heh |
| 22:29.54 | jsmith | dataw0lf: Send me the CDs when you're done, will you? |
| 22:30.14 | dataw0lf | jsmith: well... I can send you the language pack if you want me to |
| 22:30.49 | dataw0lf | Rosetta is nice because it has the core app, then separate language packs. |
| 22:31.02 | dataw0lf | I have Spanish 1-3 and Arabic 1-3 currently. |
| 22:32.10 | SunSparc | I would like to try doing both Rosetta and Pimsleur together, since they are different techniques. |
| 22:32.36 | jsmith | My wife likes the Michel Thomas audio CDs for Spanish |
| 22:32.52 | jsmith | My dad bought the Japanese version of Rosetta and wasn't impressed |
| 22:38.56 | dataw0lf | mgeary++ |
| 22:39.02 | dataw0lf | for lissenin' to the Boss. |
| 22:39.05 | mgeary | totally |
| 22:39.11 | mgeary | that's an awesome track, too |
| 22:39.16 | dataw0lf | yup got it :) |
| 22:39.24 | mgeary | ~Java applets-- |
| 22:39.24 | jbot | Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: applets-- |
| 22:39.31 | mgeary | exactly |
| 22:39.38 | mgeary | ~java SunSparc |
| 22:39.39 | jbot | Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: SunSparc |
| 22:39.47 | dataw0lf | hahahahahaha |
| 22:39.53 | SunSparc | Ouch |
| 22:40.06 | dataw0lf | ~dataw0lf |
| 22:40.07 | jbot | somebody said dataw0lf was sleeping again, or da supahstah, or a dink, or #utah's number one troll, or known by his full title: dataw0lf, Destroyer of Newbies, Troll of the Seas of IRC, God of All that is Technical, etc, etc, or a lamer as per "~nickometer dataw0lf", or stderr, the proud owner of a Hello Kitty themed eMachine, or ehl oh ehl, or a guy who likes to bash stuff, or a guy who needs help moving |
| 22:40.53 | dataw0lf | hehe that string has really built up after 3 or 4 years. |
| 22:41.39 | SunSparc | Yeah, has gotten rather long |
| 22:41.39 | SunSparc | Distinctive |
| 22:41.39 | dataw0lf | yea you can definitely follow the timeline of when I've pissed people off. |
| 22:41.48 | SunSparc | dataw0lf: Heh, no kidding. |
| 22:41.49 | dataw0lf | aw good soundtrack |
| 22:42.16 | SunSparc | I actually created a Thomas Newman station on Pandora. Nice. |
| 22:42.45 | dataw0lf | nice |
| 22:43.07 | dataw0lf | I really liked the American Beauty and Road to Perdition soundtracks, too. |
| 22:43.18 | dataw0lf | well, pretty much any soundtrack he's done but those are some of my faves. |
| 22:43.44 | SunSparc | Yeah, so far I have been impressed with most of his stuff. |
| 22:44.12 | dataw0lf | my fave soundtrack has to be A River Runs Through It |
| 22:44.23 | dataw0lf | as far as composing goes, rather than collecting songs. |
| 22:44.33 | SunSparc | Don't have that one. Sad movie though. |
| 22:45.03 | dataw0lf | yea, it is. So good. |
| 22:46.26 | dataw0lf | olds: Nerd! |
| 22:46.31 | dataw0lf | <3 This American Life |
| 22:46.55 | olds | hehe |
| 22:47.18 | mindjuju | http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1884499_1884515_1884471,00.html |
| 22:48.36 | SunSparc | Thanks for that _psychic_ |
| 22:48.40 | dataw0lf | oooh, that sounds fun, what's that SunSparc? |
| 22:48.53 | dataw0lf | I've been playing Oregon Trail obsessively. |
| 22:49.21 | _psychic_ | you shake the iphone up and down to cock the shotgun |
| 22:49.23 | SunSparc | You move the phone in a cocking motion and it makes the cocking noise, then you pull back like it is recoiling and it fires |
| 22:49.27 | _psychic_ | then point and kick it up to shoot |
| 22:49.28 | _psychic_ | it's awesome |
| 22:49.33 | dataw0lf | haha that's awesome |
| 22:49.40 | dataw0lf | have you guys downloaded the rimshot/crickets/etc app? |
| 22:49.44 | SunSparc | I want the SAW version... |
| 22:49.45 | _psychic_ | very theraputic |
| 22:49.50 | _psychic_ | yes |
| 22:49.53 | _psychic_ | dataw0lf: ^ |
| 22:49.59 | dataw0lf | _psychic_: I use it extensively. |
| 22:50.12 | _psychic_ | haha |
| 22:50.15 | _psychic_ | in meetings? |
| 22:50.22 | dataw0lf | haha, yes, and at the bar. |
| 22:50.27 | dataw0lf | and in just general conversations. |
| 22:50.34 | _psychic_ | nice |
| 22:50.38 | dataw0lf | my iphone battery life has taken a turn for the worst after I've started doing this |
| 22:50.43 | dataw0lf | worse* |
| 22:53.08 | SunSparc | heh |
| 22:54.14 | SunSparc | LOL! http://lowlatencyaudio.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/AudioThrough/SniperRaptorJesus.jpg |
| 22:55.46 | mgeary | that's not a sniper rifle. That looks like a shotgun |
| 22:55.52 | mgeary | and i know jack about weapons |
| 22:57.31 | _psychic_ | that's how good he is with a shotgun, mgeary |
| 22:57.36 | mgeary | hahahah |
| 22:57.40 | dataw0lf | omg shotgun free rocks |
| 22:57.46 | dataw0lf | everyone in the office is in awe |
| 22:57.46 | _psychic_ | told ya |
| 22:57.56 | dataw0lf | dude I'm gonna go kill some zombies |
| 22:58.03 | dataw0lf | much like I killed some sith when the lightsaber app came out |
| 22:59.15 | SunSparc | ~iPhone++ |
| 22:59.29 | dataw0lf | (our office has become quite used to my insane running around with an iphone in my making strange noises) |
| 22:59.37 | dataw0lf | in my hand* |
| 23:00.03 | SunSparc | heh, my kids like to do that also. Although we have to draw the line and hitting things with the phone. |
| 23:00.17 | SunSparc | s/and/at/ |
| 23:01.52 | dataw0lf | SunSparc: haha, yea, my niece likes to put mine in her mouth, which is pretty disgusting for all sorts of reasons. |
| 23:02.26 | SunSparc | heh, I have one that age, I know how it goes. |
| 23:56.02 | itimber | I'm out... later guys |
