IRC log for #uphpu on 20090311

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03:41.25utahcon1any designers in the house?
03:47.39wpsword
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04:54.47utahcon1wps: why would you put a span inside of an hX tag? <h3><span>blort</span></h3>
04:54.50utahcon1seems... silly
04:56.34wpsdid I do that some where?
04:58.38DezertolI could see if it he had a default font family or something for all span tags
05:06.37utahcon1it is something done on csszengarden
05:06.44utahcon1the font thing makes sense
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05:22.42SunSparcAnyone know of any SOAP servers that someone can test their SOAP install against?
05:52.25tonedevfyea SOAP!!
05:54.19SunSparcOcean Breeze soap will get you clean.
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08:01.56whiteingeutahcon1: there's quite a lot of superfluous markup in the zen garden to make up for poor browser css support, and also to give designers the most css hooks possible since the site was launched right as people were starting to figure out good techniques
08:02.45whiteingeiirc, the span in the <hN> tags used to be the best way to hide/move/remove the text while still being able to apply a background image to the block-level <hN> element
08:03.25whiteingenowadays, afaik, the most common method is to use the plain <hN> element with text-indent
08:04.53whiteingeI remember reading something by the authors that explained why they included a lot of that markup in (somewhat better) detail, but the best I can find now is this (last para): http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2005/09/07/zen_archives/
08:10.57whiteingeoh, found it (it's not online, it's in the book). "Since the Zen Garden's HTML file would be impossible to change once submissions started coming on, extra time was spent ensuring that the markup and wording of the written text was acceptable, and that there were enough unique class and id elements for the style to modify. After the launch, additional markup considerations became evident that would have been impossible to predict in advance."
08:15.51whiteingelater in the chapter they go over the markup and point out some of the interesting bits. they don't specifically mention the <span> though. :P
08:17.40whiteingethey also mention, in retrospect, some of the things they did poorly. also take note of the six completely empty <div>s at the end of the markup
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14:55.33mgeary~yow
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15:23.54mgeary~python++
15:24.36mgeary~karma python
15:24.36jbotpython has karma of 10
15:24.39mgeary~karma php
15:24.39jbotphp has neutral karma
15:24.59Utah_Davethat's funny!
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15:39.07thebigdogwoohoo i get my new computer parts today
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15:40.57carmonyfun :)
15:42.19utahconwhat you getting?
15:43.56macnewbold~php++
15:44.02macnewbold~FreeBSD++
15:52.40thebigdogi bought an microatx box a few months back to build the wife a new computer...the only issue was that when i did it i did not buy the right motherboard
15:52.52thebigdogso i just bought another case...
15:53.03Dezertolooops
15:53.13thebigdogi had this new case sitting around so i just bought the components to build a nice little server
15:53.25Dezertolthat's when it's time to brake out the tools
15:53.28thebigdogmy current server is a little old...like 7 yrs
15:53.29Dezertoland make a custom case ;-)
15:53.36thebigdogyeah
15:53.52thebigdogit was actually kinda funny
15:54.11thebigdogcause i could have sworn i got the micro mb...but it was not
15:54.16DezertolI came a cross a website a while back.. something about custom cases
15:54.25Dezertolthere are some creative folks out there
15:54.33Dezertolone was made out of an ammo can
15:54.34thebigdogso for like $300 i got a new mb, cpu, memory and sata drive
15:54.46utahconnice
15:54.47Dezertolone out of an old nintendo
15:54.55thebigdogDezertol, yeah they have some nice mods for cases too
15:55.35thebigdogi have seen it the other way too...i saw and old sun crate machine they converted to a fridge...it was awesome
15:55.54Dezertolone of these days if I ever get enough "extra" time I want to make a case out of plexy glass
15:56.06thebigdogso my parts are coming this afternoon and i will slap some gentoo on that bad boy
15:56.07Dezertolya
15:56.37Dezertolhavn't plaied with gentoo yet
15:56.52Dezertolstarted out with caldera way way back wen..
15:56.58Dezertolused it for all of a month
15:56.58utahconI suck at the gentoo but I love it!
15:57.07Dezertoland have been a Slackware guy ever since
15:57.14Dezertolall my servers are openbsd
15:57.39eggyknapmmm... openbsd
15:58.30Dezertolused freebsd for several years.. all the way up till 4.5
15:58.36Dezertolthen converted to openbsd
15:59.08fungusOpenBSD sucks for usability compared to FreeBSD, but for any kind of security server OpenBSD is where it's at.
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15:59.55Dezertolya.. my firewall and my mail server is openbsd .. postfix
16:00.11Dezertolmy webservers are slackware
16:00.32Dezertoldue to the requirements for my sites.. slack was just eaiser route
16:00.47Dezertolwith all the lib's gd, xml2 etc..
16:00.55funguslol, slack easier?!
16:00.58whiteingeSlack FTW!
16:01.08DezertolI love Slackware
16:01.13fungusThat's a sad day when even slack is easier than openbsd
16:01.18Dezertoleverything is where I expect it
16:01.29Dezertolthere is not /rc.d/rc1... to infinity
16:01.42Dezertolit's more bsd/solaris in setup
16:01.56Dezertolif you compair it to redhat that is
16:02.47Dezertolanyway.. it's all personal prefrenc anyway
16:03.13fungusdon't get me wrong, I really like openbsd, but won't use it for anything but firewalls, vpn, IDS, etc.
16:03.29Dezertolya
16:03.39DezertolI only use it for my firewall and for my mail server
16:03.47Dezertolthe rest of my servers are slackware
16:03.50fungusFor everything else, there is FreeBSD or a myriad of good Linux distros
16:10.10SunSparc~FreeBSD++
16:10.43mgeary~karma FreeBSD
16:10.43jbotfreebsd has karma of 14
16:10.47mgeary~karma OS X
16:10.47jbotos x has neutral karma
16:10.52mgearypsh
16:10.59fungus~karma OSX
16:11.00jbotosx has karma of 1
16:11.41SunSparc~OSX++
16:11.53SunSparc~OS X++
16:12.07SunSparc~karma OS X
16:12.07jbotos x has neutral karma
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16:12.20SunSparcjbot does not like the space in karma
16:12.55fungus~karma os
16:12.55jbotos has neutral karma
16:12.59fungus~karma x
16:12.59jbotx has karma of 2
16:13.44josephscott~karma FreeBSD++
16:13.44jbotfreebsd++ has neutral karma
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16:13.59josephscott~FreeBSD++
16:14.23josephscott~chuckfact
16:14.24jbotChuck Norris hand is the only hand that can beat a Royal Flush
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16:21.47utahconChuck Norris is 69 years + 1 day old, today.
16:24.35funguswoah, 69, and he still scares the boogeyman.
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16:40.40beandogits such a pain trying to find a webhost with .. well, what I need.
16:40.40beandog:)
16:40.41Dezertollol
16:40.41Dezertolhost your own server
16:40.41beandogyah, I am, but its slowing down my connection
16:40.41beandogsomething like 25-40GB up a month
16:40.41Dezertolco-lo it
16:40.41beandogspendy.
16:40.41Dezertolnot if your charging the people to use it
16:40.41beandogI'm not
16:40.42Dezertolwell then..
16:40.42Dezertolmaybe you should adjust your "business model" ;-)
16:40.42Dezertollol
16:40.42Dezertol25-40g of traffic a month
16:40.42beandogtheyre all personal sites
16:40.42Dezertolyou might want to find a way to make some moeny on that
16:40.42beandogI hate ads.
16:40.42beandogI *hate* ads.
16:40.42beandogI'd rather pay $50/mo than see one ad on my site.
16:40.42DezertolI didn't say ads
16:40.42beandog:)
16:40.42beandogmeh
16:40.47beandogI dont believe in montezing on it, then.
16:40.55Dezertolif it's like family or smeothing
16:40.58utahcon<PROTECTED>
16:41.22Dezertolask people to pitch in
16:41.22utahcondonations?
16:41.22Dezertolif yo've got like 25-40g of traffic..
16:41.22beandogUtah_Dave, blog, *.larrythecow.org, nephi.org
16:41.22Dezertolyou can ask your members to help out
16:42.06Dezertola co-lo is between 100 and 300 a month depending on how many "u's" it is
16:42.28beandogI dont like the sites *that* much. :)
16:42.41Dezertoldon't you have any other sites
16:42.46Dezertolthat you could be charging for
16:42.51Dezertolcustomers.. contrats..
16:42.53Dezertoletc..
16:42.55beandognah
16:43.00Dezertolo..
16:43.16Dezertolthen.. I sugest throttling the bandwidth to it
16:43.17Dezertollol
16:44.16utahconbeandog: what are you looking for in a host that you aren't finding?
16:44.17Dezertolwhat is "in a webhost" that your "looking for"
16:44.30Dezertollol ya
16:44.46Dezertollol
16:44.47Dezertolo..
16:44.47beandogI'm probably forgetting something.
16:44.51Dezertolgood luck
16:44.53beandogoh, and svn.
16:45.08Dezertolgood luck on just getting ssh
16:45.11utahconmust you host your cvs and svn on your webhost?
16:45.12Dezertollol
16:45.19beandogutahcon, just clients.
16:45.23beandogthe binaries.
16:45.27beandognot hosting any repos.
16:45.35beandogoh, and python2.5
16:45.43carmonyhrm....
16:45.44beandog2.4 would be fine though
16:45.46carmony~rlart
16:45.47jbotwhips out his power stapler and staples macnewbold's foot to the floor
16:46.02carmonyhahahah, even when I do a random lart it gets macnewbold ;)
16:46.17beandogoh, and cron.
16:46.29beandogI should probably write that all down.
16:46.44utahconbeandog: have you looked at dreamhost?
16:46.49Dezertolyour not going to get all that with out hosting your own server
16:46.52utahconI think the meet a lot of that...
16:46.59beandogutahcon, yah, their interface gives me a major headache
16:47.22utahconcan't argue that
16:47.32beandogbut they *do* have everything
16:47.36utahconyes they do
16:47.41beandogIve also heard that they go down quite a lot.
16:47.57Dezertollol that scuz they give script kiddies ssh access
16:47.57utahconthat is a perk!
16:48.34utahconI can't vouch for their stability. I have an account that I have never accessed. It was $12 for two years.
16:48.35unumI've become a big fan of linode
16:48.41utahconI should think about using it.
16:49.06beandogunum, yah, I should look at that..
16:50.50utahconlinode is cool looking.
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16:52.08utahconooohhh neat... they limit signups by resources available.
16:55.36Dezertollol woot.. Slack12 is a choice ;-)
16:55.37Dezertollol
16:56.20Dezertolso.. this linode
16:56.27unumsomeone on the mailling list suggested it a while back and I decided to give it a try.  I figured for $20 it couldn't hurt
16:56.30Dezertolis it really a full server.. basically
16:56.37unumbasically
16:56.50Dezertolany restrictions on what you can and can't do
16:56.59unumcolo without having to worry about hardware  failures and a fifth the cost
16:57.00Dezertolillegal things obviously...
16:57.06Dezertoler.. legal
16:57.15Dezertolnice
16:57.20DezertolI might have to look into that to
16:57.22unumI don't remember any
16:57.48unumthey prorate you so you can try it out and it may not even cost you $20
16:57.56utahconcan you use normal ssh access? or do you have to use lISH?
16:58.35unumyou can use normal ssh
16:58.41unumafter you configure the passwords
16:58.46utahconhmm
16:58.48utahconthat is really cool
16:59.06unumI run irssi on it
16:59.58Dezertolstatic ip?
17:00.03unumyep
17:00.13Dezertolwow
17:00.19unumthey let me have two, you have to ask for special permission to get more
17:00.19Dezertoli'm impressed
17:00.48Dezertoldo you run ssl certs
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17:00.54unumI've had a little trouble with the base install(debian) not being configure quite right
17:01.09unumI had to configure exim
17:01.25unumand there's something else that seems to freeze it up every few months that I haven't found yet
17:01.40unumhopefully when I upgraded to lenny that got fixed :)
17:01.53unumDezertol: yes
17:02.02unumthat's why I have two ips
17:02.08Dezertolya.. figured
17:02.11Dezertolthat's why I asked
17:02.19Dezertolwell.. I'll be signing up
17:02.20Dezertollol
17:03.04*** join/#uphpu _psychic__ (n=_psychic@173.8.91.177)
17:03.23utahconunum: got referral codes?
17:04.00utahconcoupon code TWIT001 gets 2nd month free.
17:04.22utahconMMMMCAKE gets 16th month free on annual contract
17:04.41unumecf1c8b6048e66a1ef5a967306d8495eeedc72a6
17:04.45unumthanks for asking
17:04.52Dezertolthat would work great for my lowbe sites..
17:05.17Dezertolbut the ones on there list are no where near enough power
17:05.25Dezertolfor the ones I already host
17:05.50Dezertolbut for my low end stuff.. It's not a bad way to go
17:07.07unumya none of my sites get much traffic so I wouldn't know anything about that
17:07.34DezertolI've got 2 sites that would work great on this..
17:07.40Dezertolsplit the cost.. 10 a month..
17:07.43Dezertolthe cu would be stoked
17:11.18Dezertoli'm stuck writing .net crap to day.. syncing sales orders in and out of QB
17:11.21DezertolI hate .net
17:12.36beandog.org++
17:12.50macnewbold~lart carmony
17:12.50jbottakes a large goose feather pillow and swings it wildly in carmony's direction, hitting carmony and sending carmony flying into the closet
17:18.35SunSparc.com is the best
17:23.33eggyknapmindjuju: ping
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17:28.30crobeandog: Sorry, just read the backlog.  I'm a big slicehost fan if you are still looking for a host.  Reasonably priced VPSs, great control panel
17:28.33utahcondoes not work as advertised.
17:35.03mindjuju~apb eggyknap
17:35.04jbotACTION hires Duane Lee to find eggyknap
17:35.44eggyknapmindjuju: So I've been thinking about fun SQL, and just finished writing this as a moderately interesting example: http://pastebin.com/m3b3bd2a5
17:36.14eggyknapIt's not terribly complex, really, but adequate to daunt the unwashed :)
17:36.47mindjuju! dude, that's awesome!
17:36.48eggyknaplol
18:01.47_psychic_my kindle comes today :)
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18:06.21thebigdogoh nice _psychic_ you getting the 2nd gen one?
18:06.40_psychic_yeah
18:06.54_psychic_having a hard time focusing today
18:06.58thebigdogi love the specs on the 1gen but love the look of the 2nd gen
18:07.07_psychic_yeah it's teeny
18:07.23_psychic_I'm looking forward to the annotations and searching stuff
18:07.25thebigdogi have been thinking of getting one....i love the fact you can send pdfs to it as well
18:07.26_psychic_that's pretty killer
18:07.29_psychic_yup
18:07.30thebigdogoh yeah
18:07.37_psychic_it has limited web access too
18:07.41_psychic_wikipedia, etc.
18:07.43thebigdogyeah
18:08.49_psychic_nice that they offer an iphone app too
18:09.54DexterTheDragonI wish that it would actually support pdf
18:11.02_psychic_I'm not sure what exactly it does
18:12.09thebigdogthe iphone app?
18:12.45thebigdogDexterTheDragon, what lacks pdf support?
18:12.53DexterTheDragonthe kindle
18:13.56_psychic_I thought it did
18:14.25DexterTheDragonyou have to send a pdf through an amazon system to convert it to the kindle proprietary format
18:14.31DexterTheDragonnot everything converts
18:15.34_psychic_meh
18:15.49_psychic_Gutenberg -> Save to PDF -> Kindle
18:16.12_psychic_I dont' think I'll run into that very often, though I can see that'd be frustrating
18:21.13thebigdogyeah you have to mail pdfs and word docs and such so that you can get them on your kindle...however most will convert
18:21.58thebigdogutahcon, the vim book is really good
18:22.08thebigdogi got into the habit of reading parts of it everyday
18:22.20mgearyusing "Files"
18:22.23thebigdogover the long haul it has been extremely beneficial
18:22.44thebigdogmgeary, now you can get amazon kindle books on the iphone i guess
18:23.17mgearythebigdog: yeah, but not sure why. I mostly read stuff that's on gutenberg or is otherwise available as text or pdf
18:23.21_psychic_mgeary: do you use Stanza?
18:23.38mgearyno, i use Files
18:23.47mgearythat's the name of the app
18:23.51_psychic_gotcha
18:23.51thebigdogmgeary, yeah...but to get new publications for only .99 not that is a deal ;)
18:23.54mgearyconfusing, but it's a goodun
18:24.03_psychic_I'll have to check it
18:24.13_psychic_I like stanza because it integrates with Guteberg
18:24.18mgearythat is cool
18:24.59utahconAWESOME!
18:25.27utahcontime for lunch
18:34.01SunSparcutahcon: the iPhone is an ebook reader...
18:34.03SunSparc;)
18:43.27whiteingeutahcon: i have a sony reader; the screen is *spectacular* for reading (the device itself is a drm-ed crap-fest). the screen is too small to display pdfs without some trickery though, there's supposed to be an e-reader out sometime this year which is 8.5x11" that i'm really looking forward to
18:44.27whiteingethe battery lasts forever and beats any backlit reader, hands-down
18:44.43mgearytoo big, imo
18:45.19mgearyi've read dozens/hundreds(?) of ebooks on my palm or iphone. Works great for me
18:46.00whiteingethe 8.5x11" device is supposed to be super-thin, so hopefully it'll be light enough to not bother
18:47.29whiteingeI've also read tons on my old palm (and now iphone). the palm was nice since you weren't staring into a flashlight, but the screen was dark and you have to strain your eyes too much. the e-ink displays really are *spectacular* in comparison
18:48.35Utah_DaveI've read a bunch of books on my G1. Works really well.
18:49.26whiteingethe older you guys get, the more you'll appreciate reading on something that isn't backlit.  ;)
18:51.57mgeary~young buck whiteinge
18:52.02mgeary~spring chicken whiteinge
18:52.10mgeary~old geezer thebigdog
18:52.12SunSparcThe older you get, the more you need to exercise your eyes so you don't have to worry about appreciate non-backlit screens.
18:57.47thebigdogmgeary, you are older than me
18:57.54mgearyi know
18:58.34whiteingeSunSparc: good luck with that!  :)
18:58.36mgearybut whiteinge doesn't know that
18:59.37thebigdoghehe
18:59.41thebigdogthat is just terrible
19:10.37SunSparcwhiteinge: thanks :)
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19:26.25supernoviahey guys - got a q for you if you've got a moment
19:26.44mgearyoh sure. you're gone all morning, but BAM, when you need something....
19:26.49supernoviaheheh, I know
19:26.51supernoviaSorry man
19:26.53supernoviaThanks for the computers
19:27.01mgearypsh
19:27.03supernoviaI've been trying to sort things out w. my boss :-(
19:27.05mgearythanks for getting them out of here
19:27.25supernoviaI was talking with a girl who does non-profit stuff and she's telling me I should get you reciept
19:27.48supernoviawould you like one?
19:27.49mgearyis this for non-profit?
19:27.55mgearyi thought it was for personal use
19:28.00supernoviathe computers?
19:28.04mgearyyeah
19:28.04supernoviaI don't have a non profit set up
19:28.07mgearywell then
19:28.10mgearydon't bother
19:28.16supernoviashe does though
19:28.21mgearyare they for her?
19:28.44supernoviathey're not for me personally or for her. she does something like this in california though with setting up donated computers at schools
19:29.09supernoviabut she does it all under the non profit thing.  I was just going to do this more as a give back thing.
19:29.28mgearygive back to whom?
19:29.58supernoviathis women's group
19:30.12supernoviaTHEY have a foundation set up actually -
19:30.26mgearyaha. cool
19:30.29supernovia(and technically it's not a women's group just it's mostly women who come.)
19:30.33mgearywell, in any case, don't worry about it
19:31.07supernoviaOkay. I won't then :-)
19:31.19supernoviahow are things here today?
19:31.27mgearywell, thebigdog is pretty old
19:31.36supernovia(If they end up providing reciepts and stuff then I'll give them over, how's that?)
19:31.47supernoviapretty old eh? Got a birthday thebigdog ?
19:31.52thebigdognope
19:31.55mgearyno, he's just old
19:31.58supernoviagray hairs?
19:32.01thebigdogmgeary is feeling old and wants to bring me down
19:32.04mgearyhahaha
19:32.07thebigdogyeah
19:32.07mgearytouché
19:32.10thebigdogi have gray hairs
19:32.20thebigdogkids do that too you
19:32.22mgearyit's the beard, dude
19:32.24supernoviathey do.
19:32.38SunSparc~young mgeary
19:32.38supernoviagoodness.  I haven't seen thebigdog with a beard.
19:32.43mgearyi might have grays if i grew a beard, but without it, i'm as youthful as... as.. whiteinge
19:32.56thebigdoghehe yeah that is what it is like
19:33.16thebigdogim starting to get the salt in my pepper
19:33.17thebigdoghehe
19:33.50SunSparcEvery 10 years or so I just hop into my high tech sarcophagus and rejuvenate.
19:34.32supernoviaand SunSparc I believe you. I want one too.
19:34.58SunSparcsupernovia: I think there is a market for them...
19:35.11SunSparcThese human bodies are so easy to repair.
19:35.36supernoviaw00t. I'll be looking forward to unbreaking my nose
19:35.43SunSparc:)
19:36.08supernoviaso em. hehe, mind if I ask your opinion?
19:36.10SunSparcNOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
19:36.21supernoviaGood!
19:36.29dataw0lfaw man I missed a Stargate reference?  Nice.
19:36.29SunSparcThat was for mgeary.
19:36.37supernoviaAwe, darn.
19:36.37SunSparcdataw0lf: ;)
19:36.42mgeary^5s all round
19:36.43dataw0lfSunSparc: :D
19:36.47SunSparcwoot!
19:37.15SunSparcsupernovia: what opinion are you wanting?
19:37.17supernoviado you charge different rates for contract projects vs semi permanent and predictable contract projects?
19:37.23dataw0lfI just switched to this channel and "These human bodies are so easy to repair" just jumped out at me.
19:37.40SunSparchehe, I love that movie.
19:37.45dataw0lfyea it's great
19:38.15mgearysupernovia: yes, sometimes
19:38.22supernoviaI'm weaning myself off the web hosting since it doesn't pay well. and someone's wanting me for 10 hours per week
19:38.38supernoviaI don't think it'd be right to charge my regular contract rate since it's predictable hours
19:38.39dataw0lfhttp://i.gizmodo.com/5166649/ipods-and-young-people-have-utterly-destroyed-music
19:38.58mgearysupernovia: one thing i do is charge one rate for fixed-bid work, and a slightly lower rate if it's straight hourly
19:39.00SunSparcsupernovia: why not?
19:39.22supernoviayeah - I'm not sure quite what to charge though
19:39.35supernoviaI guess I just don't see myself being worth that much over a year's time. Is that nuts?
19:39.40mgearyyes
19:39.55SunSparcdataw0lf: Too true, audiophiles are a dying breed.
19:39.56supernoviathey could hire someone part time to work for them for alot less
19:40.17SunSparcsupernovia: yes
19:40.22dataw0lfI keep FLAC copies of all of my music, then strut around with either V0 or 320
19:40.24supernoviabut they want me. they know my contract rate
19:40.28mgearyso there you go
19:40.30SunSparcsupernovia: don't sell yourself short
19:40.56supernoviayeah I don't want to sell myself -too- short at least :)
19:41.10SunSparcdataw0lf: Good idea.  I keep all my CD's around just in case.
19:41.51supernoviaanyway, so that was my question. thinking I should lower my rates by a percent at least and am just not sure how to figure that out
19:42.10SunSparcsupernovia: this is my motto, if I am busy, I charge an outrageous amount, if they want me for that rate, I take it.  If I am not busy, I charge my normally high price.
19:42.15dataw0lfSunSparc: I've had my CD collections stolen 3 separate times before, I just keep digital copies now.
19:42.41SunSparcsupernovia: If they really want you and the skills and quality that go along with you then they will pay.  If not, it is not worth your time.
19:42.48supernoviayeah, I would really -like- to have the steady income though
19:43.17SunSparcdataw0lf: That bites!  Good thing you had backups.  I keep my cd collection in a big box in the basement store room.
19:43.26supernoviaanyway, hehe, I'll stop being silly then
19:43.45supernoviaand mull this over whilst I crank out some css (which can be as theraputic as knitting)
19:44.06dataw0lfSunSparc: yea, two times in high school, and once in Iraq
19:44.10supernoviatherapeutic, dang it.  I can't spell.
19:44.30SunSparcsupernovia: a steady income is not what you really want.  What you really want is the freedom to do whatever you want and spend plenty of time with your family, friends, and your own projects.
19:45.02SunSparcdataw0lf: That would tick me off after the first time, I can't imagine what it would do to me the 3rd.
19:45.19dataw0lfSunSparc: yea the third time I had around 800~ cds stolen.
19:45.24supernoviathanks SunSparc
19:45.35supernoviaand mgeary too for the feedback :) I'll mull things over
19:46.02SunSparcdataw0lf: ouch!
19:46.19dataw0lfonly 200 or so that were burned.
19:46.40SunSparcsupernovia: listen to this podcast -> http://www.liveonpurposeradio.com/radio/2008/09/11/killing-sacred-cows-on-purpose/
19:47.08supernoviakilling sacred cows on purpose eh?
19:47.10supernoviaK.
19:47.21SunSparcsupernovia: Yep
19:47.31supernoviahehe. Ok. thanks SunSparc
19:47.35SunSparc:)
19:48.47SunSparcdataw0lf: Have you got all your music back?
19:49.09dataw0lfoh, yea.  I'm approaching a TB of music now.
19:49.29SunSparcWow, nice!
19:49.53SunSparcHow does the flac file size compare to mp3 or aac?
19:50.10SunSparcI assume it is close to raw?
19:50.35SunSparcI have not looked into flac.
19:50.45Dezertoljust out of curiosity but how much do you charge for your contract work
19:50.56Dezertolor is that not a ok thing to say
19:50.57Dezertollol
19:51.07SunSparcIt is a good thing to talk about Dezertol.
19:51.24SunSparcFor normal work I charge about $150/hour.
19:51.38SunSparcDouble that if I am not really wanting the work.
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19:51.45Dezertolwow
19:51.51dataw0lfSunSparc: as an example, an album that is 97 mb in 320 mp3 format is about 203 mb in FLAC, so about x2 of high quality mp3s
19:51.51Dezertolthat's much higher then I thougt
19:51.57SunSparcOf course, contract prices are a lot lower.
19:52.00supernoviahttp://freelanceswitch.com/rates/
19:52.25dataw0lfcontract hourly charging is pretty dependent on the project and skillset involved
19:52.26supernoviahth Dezertol
19:52.32SunSparcdataw0lf: That's not bad at all.
19:52.32DezertolI put out a bit at 100 an hour once..
19:52.44Dezertolthey came back and said they'd out source to india for $8.00
19:52.45Dezertollol
19:52.46dataw0lfI can go anywhere from 45 - 150 for me.
19:52.51Dezertoland they did and got what they wanted
19:52.52Dezertollol
19:52.58dataw0lfSunSparc: yea, it's pretty decent
19:53.29Dezertolya.. most of the time I do 65-70
19:53.37Dezertoli've got as high as 200
19:53.49Dezertolbut I REALLY didn't want that one
19:53.50Dezertollol
19:53.54Dezertolbut got it anyway
19:53.55supernoviaalso not to plug myself but there are a copule of other related links here:  http://novapages.com/ideablog/design/figuring-out-billable-hours-rates/
19:54.06SunSparcYeah for friends and people I know I do $50.  But really, if someone is wanting you for less, then they are expecting perfection for peanuts and you really do not want to do business with them anyway.
19:54.21SunSparcThe price weeds out the customers you do not want.  Don't play desperate.
19:54.29dataw0lfyea, agreed.
19:54.49dataw0lfI usually slightly overcharge the going rate for programming contracts and slightly undercharge for security contracting
19:55.33Dezertolwell I'm charging $65 right now and have 4 projects do by the end of the month
19:55.43DezertolI had to hire a friend to help me
19:55.44Dezertollol
19:56.09thebigdogmindjuju, you around?
19:56.15Dezertoljust getting killed with side projects
19:56.16SunSparcDezertol: is it worth your time and your skill?  Your real value is you.  Money comes and goes and is just an indication of value.
19:59.58Dezertolintresting. with notpade
20:00.02Dezertolpad
20:00.19Dezertoldo bad I don't use windows for anything just have to use date >> log.txt
20:00.20Dezertollol
20:01.10Dezertolor I guess :r! date
20:01.13Dezertolfor this...
20:09.36mgearydiscussing rates among potential competitors is a potential legal danger zone
20:09.40mgearyyou can get charged with price fixing
20:09.50mgearyianal
20:09.53Dezertollol
20:09.56mgearyno, i'm serious
20:10.15DezertolI think they'll go after the gas companies first
20:10.32mgearyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing
20:10.40mgeary"Price fixing is an agreement between business competitors to sell the same product or service at the same price"
20:10.41Dezertolthat is of course.. why I asked if it was ok to talk about that here
20:10.44macnewboldsupernovia: nice blog post - good links
20:10.54mgeary"Price fixing requires a conspiracy between two or more sellers..."
20:11.10mgeary"Generally, price fixing is illegal..."
20:11.46macnewboldmgeary: "conspiracy to fix prices" and "discussing our thoughts about market value for a product/service" are very different things
20:11.50supernoviaThanks macnewbold :-)
20:11.58mgearymacnewbold: i'm not asserting that it's happening here
20:12.34mgearyjust raising awareness
20:12.56macnewboldprice fixing can't effectively happen unless you can get enough of the market to be using the fixed prices that it leaves people without other practical alternatives. otherwise, you're just high priced and market forces will push business elsewhere.
20:13.26Dezertollike to india
20:13.31macnewboldsure
20:13.37Dezertolfor $8.00 a site
20:13.38Dezertollol
20:13.39mindjuju~apb thebigdog
20:13.40jbotACTION hires Dog the Bounty Hunter to rough up thebigdog
20:13.50Dezertolgot out bid just befor xmas for an 8.00 site
20:13.51Dezertollol
20:14.13macnewboldwe've been getting jobs lately where people out of state (esp. california) will bid it out locally, and get a budget of say $10K, and we'll bid it out and our prices come in closer to $5K.
20:14.27macnewboldthe cost of living difference is a huge benefit in utah over california
20:14.47mgearyindeed
20:14.51Dezertolya
20:15.02mgearyand in that same vein, we often try to avoid doing work for Utah companies
20:15.16mgearywell, the ones that think they're somehow entitled to an automatic discount, anyway
20:15.28Dezertollol
20:15.29mgearyfor some reason, there's millions of them here
20:15.36Dezertolhavn't had that issue yet..
20:15.42mgeary~lucky Dezertol
20:15.43Dezertolmost everyone I do work for is people I konw
20:15.51Dezertolby some round about way..
20:15.56Dezertolgranted.. sometimes very rounded..
20:16.01Dezertolbut it's all word of mouth
20:16.09DezertolI've not had any advertising
20:16.18Dezertoland I've always got a project or two on the burners
20:16.37Dezertolexcept this month... 4.. :-$
20:17.07Dezertolbut two of them are good money
20:17.13Dezertol13k on one 7k on the other
20:17.19Dezertolthe other two are kida a joke
20:19.43mgearyhey, can anyone recommend a decent place that leases out dedicated *nix machines?
20:20.05mgearywe've got some with A Plus, but i'm not thrilled with them
20:20.24josephscottmgeary: I've had been happy with theplanet.com but only have one server there
20:20.33jsmithmgeary: I'm using layeredtech.com
20:20.39jsmithmgeary: and I've been happy with them
20:21.00mgearythanks
20:21.38josephscottautomattic has a number of servers at layeredtech.com as well
20:24.17josephscottI know someone who has a server at cari.net as well, seemed ok with it
20:26.39jsmithYeah... serverbeach.com is another well-known place as well
20:27.40mgearythanks
20:39.02supernoviathat's to you mgeary
20:39.17mgearycool
20:39.58SunSparcWho had that IE Demo with only paper link yesterday?
20:41.08josephscottI did
20:41.24josephscottdon't remember the URL off hand :-)
20:41.32josephscottis there a log for this channel?
20:41.51jsmith~log
20:41.52jbotlog is, like, as piece of wood, or a record, or the opposite of exponentiation
20:42.07SunSparcYes, there is a log
20:43.31SunSparcjbot log is also http://ibot.rikers.org/%23uphpu/
20:43.32jbotokay, SunSparc
20:44.57SunSparcThere it is:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9TtDecveCE&eurl=http://blog.screentoaster.com
20:45.01SunSparcThanks josephscott
20:45.44SunSparcmindjuju: ok you, stop it right now.
20:45.54SunSparcThat is making me salivate.
20:46.00mindjujuis it really 3pm?
20:46.05mindjujuman, where did the day go?
20:46.14SunSparcjbot took it
20:46.26SunSparcjbot, give us back our day!
20:46.27jbotACTION gives back our day! to us
20:46.33SunSparcThanks
20:46.41SunSparcjbot, thanks
20:46.41jbotmy pleasure, SunSparc
20:46.44utahconthat is too much effort
20:47.04mindjujui wonder if German brauts taste significantly different than brauts bought at the store
20:47.20SunSparcThey do if you are eating them in Germany.
20:47.41SunSparcOr fresh off the barbie from Siefried's Deli, in SLC.
20:48.42SunSparcMmmm, I would love a good currywurst right about now... mit pomme fritz und Dusseldorfer senf...
20:49.21mgearybratwurst isn't anything close to the best wursts from Germany
20:49.28mindjujui'm not German, but i'm guessing that says, "Please give me a double whopper with cheese"
20:49.48mindjujumgeary, i was thinking as much
20:50.03mgearywhat i mean is, there are much better wursts than bratwursts
20:50.13SunSparcmindjuju: If you had good german food in Germany you would never want to even think of a double whopper with cheese again.
20:50.20mgearyknackwurst, weisswurst, nurenberger wurst
20:50.35mindjujubetter than bratwursts?
20:50.40mgearyimo
20:51.09mindjujui mean, i see that list you put out, but never had any of them
20:51.30mindjujui'll have to see if i can find an authentic German restaurant
20:51.35SunSparcmindjuju: We need to have a geek lunch at Siegfried's deli.
20:51.57SunSparcmindjuju: Siegfried, look no further
20:52.00mindjujuwhere is Siegfried?
20:52.17mindjujuah, in the SLC
20:52.28SunSparc20 W 200 S
20:52.47SunSparcMmmmmm
20:53.01SunSparcI used to work a block away from them... it was nice.
20:53.21utahconanyone got a good article on setting up SOAP services?
20:53.24SunSparcIf only it was not 45 minutes from where I work.
20:53.27mindjujui wonder if they have fungus friendly food
20:54.01SunSparcWhat are fungus food needs?
20:54.02utahconmindjuju: everyone has mac & cheese
20:54.07SunSparclolz!
20:54.16mindjujufungus = vegetarian
20:55.56fungusGerman food sounds very unfungus-friendly
20:56.16mindjujui'll call and check, no menu online
20:56.48fungusbut I don't know anything about German food besides *-wurst  and saurkraut
20:57.06mindjujusaurkraut isn't meaty though
20:57.08mindjuju:)
20:57.20mindjujufungus, did you see this?
20:57.20fungusyeah, but it looks and smells scary
20:57.22mindjujuhttp://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/03/11/apple_orders_10_inch_touchscreens_for_mystery_product.html
20:58.11fungushrm, more evidence to the netbook rumor.  Perhaps there is something to them.
20:59.35dataw0lfhttp://i.gizmodo.com/5168258/oregon-trail-iphone-game-hands-on?skyline=true&s=x
20:59.43dataw0lf\m/
21:00.18mindjujudataw0lf, that's awesome!
21:02.01dataw0lfyea dude
21:02.05dataw0lftotally stoked
21:02.39mindjujuso what's the word on you moving back?
21:03.06fungus$6 for the game?  hrm.
21:03.28dataw0lfmindjuju: still lookin' for a job I'd like
21:03.31SunSparcWow!  Sweet!  And better graphics.
21:04.04dataw0lfyea everyone who has been giving me smack for having an iphone shall repent like the sinners they are when I bust out the Oregon Trail.
21:05.11SunSparc~iPhone++
21:05.17funguseh, whats $6?
21:05.36dataw0lffungus: :D
21:05.41dataw0lfhave you played Pocket God?
21:06.02fungusnope, any good?
21:06.17dataw0lffungus: excellent and it's only 99 cents.
21:06.23dataw0lfthey come out with a new "chapter" weekly
21:06.42dataw0lfhttp://pocketgod.blogspot.com/
21:07.31dataw0lfit's just a really entertaining game which takes advantage of the iPhone interface
21:08.09fungusheh, fun.  
21:08.53dataw0lfevery time I find something new to do, there's a lot of hidden features
21:09.04dataw0lfyou can drag the sun below the horizon and turn it to night
21:09.12dataw0lfyou can flick your little natives into a volcano
21:09.27funguscool, all productivity for the day is now shot.
21:09.33SunSparcThat looks fun.
21:09.42dataw0lfSunSparc: you'll love it.
21:10.00SunSparcAh, nice, right next to my Spore app...
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21:14.03*** join/#uphpu Joecomputerdude (n=joecompu@198.30.143.168)
21:15.31SunSparcdataw0lf: Ok, that is fun!
21:15.40SunSparcMy kids are going to love that.
21:15.53SunSparcThanks for the tip
21:16.16dataw0lfnp np
21:29.04Dezertollol #102 reasons why it's great to be a guy : Teaching your kids to flick Natives into a volcano
21:30.07SunSparcheh
21:30.23SunSparcBeing a dad has it's perqs.
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21:32.47trevynmeyeryo yo
21:33.09trevynmeyerI have a small PHP project for anyone interested
21:33.24trevynmeyerIts a lead capture form mixed with a Banckruptcy Calculator
21:33.38trevynmeyerProbabbly a 20-30 hour project
21:33.41trevynmeyerpay DOE
21:33.58trevynmeyermindjuju: Iknow your interested :P
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21:36.19*** mode/#UPHPU [+v Lone_Wanderer] by ChanServ
21:36.42Lone_WandererDoes anyone here know anything about Neutron Interactive?
21:38.01dataw0lfolds works for them, I believe.
21:39.55dataw0lfOregon Trail is already worth every penny
21:39.57Lone_WandererThere's a god of pockets now?
21:40.00dataw0lfI just did a "gold panning" minigame
21:40.20Lone_WandererDo you get to buy stuff with the gold you get from it?
21:40.25dataw0lfyea
21:42.17Lone_WandererAhh, Broderbund.  They made a lot of good games.
21:42.31mgearyPinball Construction Set ++
21:42.36mgearythat was a fun game
21:43.41Lone_WandererI always enjoyed Lode Runner.
21:43.44mgearytotally
21:43.50Lone_WandererNever did understand why the bad guys wanted to kill me.
21:44.06Lone_WandererBut I sure enjoyed dropping them into pits and walking on their heads.
21:44.20dataw0lfKing's Quest++
21:52.14jsmithLode Runner for the win!
21:57.39jsmithutahcon: Yeah, it's not that hard
22:08.21itimberI'm out... later guys
22:21.58*** part/#uphpu trevynmeyer (n=trevynme@70-0-42-59.pools.spcsdns.net)
22:24.38Lone_WandererHmm, still no olds.  Oh well.
22:28.25Utah_DaveGeez, we're doing our own pbx at work, finally. The gov bureaucrat who we had to get permission to get a PRI was telling us it was going to be at least 3,500 a month. I told him he was crazy
22:28.41Utah_Davejust got the bid...  $510/month
22:28.42Lone_WandererWhere do you work?
22:28.47Lone_WandererNice
22:29.04Lone_WandererAnd if they know you're a govt. office that's probably inflated anyway.
22:29.08Utah_Davethe Guard
22:29.28Lone_WandererUtah NG?
22:30.04Utah_Daveyeah
22:30.38Lone_Wanderercool, you work with an 18E right?
22:30.41Lone_WandererSF commo guy?
22:30.55macnewboldUtah_Dave: we're almost done setting up our new PBX too - but instead of a PRI, we have a VOIP SIP trunk service, a good internet connection (which we had to have anyway) and an asterisk-based PBX (switchvox)
22:31.13Lone_Wanderermacnewbold: I've got a question for you if you've got a minute
22:31.18macnewboldsure
22:31.22Lone_WandererPM?
22:31.37macnewboldok
22:32.12Utah_Davemacnewbold: cool. who did you buy your switchvox from? straight from digium? or a reseller?
22:33.45fungusDigium's AA60 running Business Edition is much cheaper, and plenty featureful compared to the Switchvox line
22:34.04Lone_WandererPBX is the thing where you call and it says "Push 1 for Bob, Push 2 for Joe" etc., right?
22:34.59Utah_DaveLone_Wanderer: yeah, but it's more than just the phone tree. It's the server that is the brains behind all your phones and the gateway to the rest of the world
22:35.11Utah_Daveyou don't have to have a phone tree.
22:36.16Lone_Wandererahh, cool
22:38.04dataw0lfLone_Wanderer: a PBX is like a managed router for phones.
22:47.22macnewboldUtah_Dave: we just threw the free Switchvox version on a PC we bought for cheap
22:47.35macnewboldsince it's all voip, it just needs an ethernet port
22:48.06macnewboldwe could have done almost the same with Vyatta for our router, but ended up going with their appliance (the smaller one)
22:49.03jsmithfungus: The difference between an AA60 with Business Edition and Switchvox is that Business Edition is a bucket of Lego blocks and Switchvox is a pre-built castle.
22:49.47jsmithfungus: If you're trying to build a castle anyway, Switchvox makes it easy.  If what you're really trying to build isn't a castle (or is a very specialized castle), then the AA60 with ABE is a better bet
22:56.46macnewboldyeah, I'd agree with that
22:57.14macnewboldI didn't fully know this up front, but switchvox free edition also doesn't have all the features. It has a whole lot, and almost all the important ones that an SMB would need.
22:57.52macnewboldin fact, just today I set up my password-protected conference bridge so people can get to it from our main IVR menu
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23:22.15SunSparcAny Mac users here using the new Parallels 4 that might also have tried to install CoD4?
23:24.48dataw0lfhmmmm, no, but I _should_.
23:24.49fungusNo, but I once tried Sims2 in VMware Fusion.  Not good.
23:25.22beandogunum, working good so far. :)
23:25.28SunSparcParallels 4 just came out and they have a whole list of 3D games that they have working in it, but they did not list CoD4.
23:26.11SunSparcNot sure if they just did not try it or if they tried it and failed.   ("They tried and failed?" "They tried and died.")
23:27.48dataw0lfhehe, <3 Mitch Hedberg
23:28.16Lone_WandererSo, I emailed the FBI, saying "If I suspect someone of possibly ramping up for or researching bioterrorism, who should I contact about that?"
23:28.24Lone_WandererAnd I haven't heard back from them on it.  This was a week or two ago.
23:28.46Lone_WandererI find this to be somewhat unsettling.
23:29.04mgearywhat you don't know is that your phone is now being tapped
23:29.11SunSparcThat is because they are now monitoring you Lone_Wanderer
23:29.12dataw0lfhehe, yea, I'm sure they're paying attention...
23:29.16beandogseriously
23:29.41Lone_WandererProbably they have MI-type guys keeping their ear to the ground for bioterrorism threats in Utah
23:29.47Lone_Wandererand they're hearing a fat lot of nothing
23:30.09Lone_Wandererif they considered it a serious (or even medium) risk they'd probably have gotten back to me by now
23:30.19beandogmaybe they use Exchange.
23:30.58Lone_WandererTheir tubes could be clogged with casino chips.
23:31.02Lone_Wanderer(old joke)
23:34.11fungus~exchange--
23:34.26beandogwhat you didn't know is that mindjuju is a sleeper agent
23:34.43mgeary~sleep mindjuju
23:34.52jbotACTION sends mindjuju to bed without supper
23:35.06beandogheh
23:42.24thebigdogwoohoo got my new comp setup
23:43.43beandoga new lappy i386?
23:43.58Lone_WandererOkay, I think it's (well past) time for me to learn some solid SEO principles and techniques.
23:44.04Lone_WandererAre there any books or web pages I can read?
23:44.58mgearyheh. well i can give you my philosophy
23:45.30mgearyit's all about high-quality inbound links. Those appear to be vastly more important than endlessly tweaking metatags and such on your site.
23:45.44beandogmgeary, don't forget the unicorns
23:45.50mgearyshhhh
23:45.54mgearymilk before meat
23:45.55Lone_WandererIs it a unicorns and fairies thing?
23:46.08mgearyclearly having good user-facing content is important. Probably more important than tweaked metatags, imo
23:46.30Lone_WandererI always figured if you focus more on high quality content (and don't completely screw up your site structure, URLs, etc.) then you'll be fine.
23:46.48mgearypossibly so, but if no one points to you, you're probably dead in the water
23:47.00Lone_WandererMaybe I should just skip over job listings that have SEO experiences as a requirement.
23:47.15Lone_WandererYeah but if you have good content, people will find it and link to you, innit?
23:47.20mgearyyes
23:47.34mgearybut what the engines care about is the links. You just get them by having good content
23:52.41Lone_Wanderer"(Person) has all but a dissertation completed toward a PhD."  Isn't the dissertation pretty much all there is to a PhD?  Or am I thinking of a thesis?
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23:53.27mgearyheh. yeah, Lone_Wanderer, that's like saying you have an entire house built except for the walls
23:53.54SunSparcNight all.

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