| 00:00.22 | mindjuju | k |
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| 01:20.30 | testingIRC | fungus -- are you coming to the meet today? |
| 01:22.21 | fungus | yup |
| 01:28.40 | testingIRC | awesome |
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| 02:29.16 | mindjujuMeeting | ~apb herlo |
| 02:29.17 | jbot | ACTION hires Beth to stake out herlo |
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| 02:37.36 | Utah_Dave | mindjujuMeeting: are you streaming this meeting? |
| 02:37.40 | Utah_Dave | mindjuju |
| 02:40.03 | mindjujuMeeting | hey utah_dave, not able to this time, but it is being recorded |
| 02:40.12 | mindjujuMeeting | and the recording will have video |
| 02:40.17 | mindjujuMeeting | so i promise to get it out quick |
| 02:40.29 | mindjujuMeeting | sorry! |
| 02:43.26 | Utah_Dave | My wife just got home. I think I'm going to jet over |
| 02:44.36 | mindjujuMeeting | awesome! |
| 02:45.03 | mindjujuMeeting | dexterthedragon is just finishing his part on Git, and the oter presenter will be starting here shortly |
| 02:45.16 | mindjujuMeeting | so you just missed a little part |
| 02:45.20 | mindjujuMeeting | totally worth coming! |
| 03:33.02 | herlo | mindjuju: sorry, got caught up in something... |
| 03:41.45 | mindjujuMeeting | no worries, was going to ask what program you use to stream audio to the iceserver |
| 03:44.19 | herlo | darkice |
| 03:44.25 | herlo | going to package it for ubuntu soon |
| 03:44.35 | herlo | it's already packaged in fedora, I'm the maintainer |
| 03:44.38 | herlo | mindjuju: ^^ |
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| 03:49.22 | mindjujuMeeting | gotcha |
| 03:50.58 | herlo | :) |
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| 16:04.04 | *** topic/#UPHPU by mindjuju -> Utah PHP Users Group | uphpu.org |
| 16:04.52 | herlo | mindjuju: hey |
| 16:05.03 | mindjuju | hey |
| 16:05.08 | herlo | Fedora Release Party December 6 |
| 16:05.09 | jsmith | hey! |
| 16:05.13 | herlo | Trying to decide a location |
| 16:05.23 | herlo | jsmith: hey! |
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| 16:05.49 | jsmith | herlo: I think you should have it at... Chucky Cheese! |
| 16:06.24 | mindjuju | on Saturday, that's cool |
| 16:06.30 | mindjuju | from when to when? |
| 16:07.03 | jsmith | 9am to 5pm, at the Costco parking lot... oh, and bring your mittens |
| 16:07.51 | herlo | mindjuju: 6-8pm prolly |
| 16:08.01 | herlo | ~slap jsmith |
| 16:08.02 | jbot | ACTION slaps jsmith, keep your grubby fingers to yourself! |
| 16:08.11 | jsmith | herlo: I wish I were closer too, but then I'd have to... say.... live in Utah! |
| 16:08.33 | mgeary | zing |
| 16:08.37 | herlo | lol, not really |
| 16:08.48 | herlo | jsmith: how often am I actually in Utah |
| 16:08.56 | jsmith | herlo: Lucky for them! |
| 16:08.59 | jsmith | ~zing |
| 16:09.05 | jsmith | ~zinger |
| 16:09.13 | jsmith | ~cookie |
| 16:09.21 | mindjuju | what options were you thinking of for the distro party, did you want BGM to be one of them? |
| 16:09.35 | herlo | not necessarily, but it could be :) |
| 16:09.50 | herlo | just starting |
| 16:10.09 | herlo | maybe I'll do it earlier during the day, but I thought evening would be most appropriate |
| 16:10.12 | mindjuju | Saturdays in general are a good day there |
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| 16:13.47 | herlo | yes! |
| 16:14.04 | mindjuju | ? |
| 16:14.09 | mindjuju | no! |
| 16:14.15 | jsmith | maybe :-/ |
| 16:14.30 | mindjuju | XOR |
| 16:15.42 | herlo | mindjuju: well, I'd be happy to bring food in and have it at BGM |
| 16:16.15 | mindjuju | cool, lets do it, i'll pen it down for dec 7 @ 6p |
| 16:16.36 | herlo | you mean dec 6 |
| 16:16.42 | mindjuju | err, yup |
| 16:16.45 | mindjuju | dec 6 |
| 16:16.46 | herlo | :) |
| 16:16.55 | herlo | I plan on announcing it this week |
| 16:17.08 | herlo | is that cool? |
| 16:17.19 | mindjuju | yup |
| 16:17.21 | herlo | k |
| 16:17.27 | herlo | thanks man! |
| 16:18.16 | mindjuju | and UTOS End of the Year - Family Geek Lunch like Dec 12 |
| 16:18.22 | mindjuju | is that coo for you? |
| 16:18.51 | mindjuju | 2 loc - Provo and Draper that one statkehouse you mentioned in Provo and somewhere up heres |
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| 16:20.15 | mindjuju | sup wps! |
| 16:20.36 | wps | howdy |
| 16:20.58 | mgeary | hey stranger |
| 16:21.03 | mindjuju | brb |
| 16:21.22 | wps | good morning, gents |
| 16:21.38 | wps | looks like I'll get SSH access finally at work |
| 16:22.11 | unum | cool |
| 16:23.04 | wps | just found out yesterday that there is an official proxy server that I can use |
| 16:23.44 | wps | it's one of those "area 51" things :) |
| 16:24.05 | wps | no one will admit it exists or can provide any information on it, but if you can get it to work, it's there |
| 16:24.10 | mgeary | hah |
| 16:25.06 | wps | I found a utility called Corkscrew that will allow me to SSH through the proxy |
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| 16:31.44 | carmony | lol, too funny |
| 16:36.28 | beandog | http://icanhascheezburger.com/2008/11/20/funny-pictures-i-can-xplains-oki-cant/ |
| 16:50.33 | herlo | mindjuju: Geek lunch sounds great! |
| 17:35.39 | mgeary | carmony: tell us about it |
| 17:35.58 | mindjuju | and if the official Monty Python YouTube Channel wasn't good enough news for ya, here's more to celebrate. No IE 8 utnil next year! - http://www.tgdaily.com/html_tmp/content-view-40296-140.html |
| 17:37.50 | carmony | it connects to the database |
| 17:38.07 | carmony | and creates a class based off a table you give it |
| 17:38.13 | carmony | so it adds all the class variables |
| 17:38.22 | carmony | and creates Insert, Update, and Delete records. |
| 17:38.28 | carmony | er, methods |
| 17:39.11 | mgeary | carmony: well... don't you think you should simply have these Active Records (for that is what they are) simply inherit CRUD from a super class? |
| 17:39.51 | carmony | Yes, i wouls *love* that, but this is an existing system that is all fubar'd up and their DBAL is retarded, so I just wrote this script to do it |
| 17:40.23 | carmony | on cevo.com we have a super class that handles all the inserts, updates, deletes, etc. |
| 17:41.59 | herlo | DexterTheDragon: ping |
| 17:44.51 | *** join/#uphpu undertakingyou (n=will@undertakingyou.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 17:52.05 | carmony | so who was all at the meeting last night? I caught some people's names, but not everyones. |
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| 17:53.41 | mgeary | i was the big guy with the pot belly, sparse hair and snickerdoodle crumbs all over my shirt |
| 17:56.21 | mgeary | "wake up" |
| 17:56.33 | thebigdog | im up |
| 17:56.55 | *** join/#uphpu wps_ (n=wps@208.53.47.251) |
| 17:57.56 | carmony | lol |
| 17:58.49 | SunSparc | ~hex wps's split personality |
| 17:58.49 | jbot | wps's split personality is 77 70 73 27 73 20 73 70 6C 69 74 20 70 65 72 73 6F 6E 61 6C 69 74 79 |
| 17:58.58 | SunSparc | :) |
| 17:58.59 | wps | wrong hex :) |
| 17:59.36 | thebigdog | looks about right to me |
| 18:11.51 | SunSparc | ~tank |
| 18:11.52 | jbot | well, tank is tankmanns nickname, nobody else is allowed to use it |
| 18:15.27 | thebigdog | how did the meeting go last night? |
| 18:15.52 | *** join/#uphpu sjansen (n=sjansen@97-117-59-103.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 18:19.43 | SunSparc | http://ping.fm/SgbWw |
| 18:21.10 | sjansen | Anyone know of a F/OSS solution for spell checking an entire Web page or (even better) site? |
| 18:21.24 | herlo | sjansen: aspell |
| 18:23.01 | herlo | :) |
| 18:23.28 | fungus | curl <url> | aspell -a |
| 18:24.32 | fungus | lol, maybe not. |
| 18:46.06 | carmony | lol, so I figured out why my demo last night didn't work out |
| 18:46.31 | fungus | caching? |
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| 18:48.31 | carmony | nope! I forgot to merge my changes into the production folder :P |
| 18:48.42 | carmony | I was driving home and thought "Gah! Duh!" |
| 18:48.50 | fungus | lol, whoops |
| 18:49.01 | fungus | it all makes so much more sense now though. |
| 18:50.07 | carmony | lol, yup |
| 18:50.31 | carmony | well, I hope the presentation helped some people there :P |
| 18:59.14 | thebigdog | did mindjuju get it all recorded? |
| 18:59.22 | carmony | he said he did |
| 18:59.24 | carmony | w/ video :P |
| 18:59.30 | thebigdog | ill have to check it out |
| 18:59.35 | thebigdog | i did read the slides |
| 18:59.39 | thebigdog | and they looked pretty good |
| 19:00.03 | thebigdog | so i wanted to hear your presentation |
| 19:03.22 | DexterTheDragon | herlo: pong |
| 19:03.23 | thebigdog | sjansen, aspell -H list |
| 19:04.18 | herlo | DexterTheDragon: hey |
| 19:04.28 | DexterTheDragon | whats up |
| 19:04.28 | herlo | DexterTheDragon: did you know your blog was down a lot yesterday? |
| 19:04.38 | DexterTheDragon | yeah I fixed that this morning |
| 19:04.40 | DexterTheDragon | dns problems |
| 19:05.19 | herlo | lol |
| 19:05.26 | herlo | I was getting errors in my scripts :) |
| 19:05.53 | fungus | yay, congrats carmony |
| 19:05.57 | herlo | carmony: lol |
| 19:06.03 | herlo | carmony: are you on planet.utos.org? |
| 19:06.21 | herlo | fungus is |
| 19:06.23 | carmony | lol, as soon as I got to that part I was like "Oh crap, I haven't done this yet on this server.... oops. How embarresing(sp?)" |
| 19:06.30 | *** part/#uphpu sjansen (n=sjansen@97-117-59-103.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 19:06.30 | carmony | herlo, I Don't thikn so |
| 19:06.39 | herlo | carmony: what's your url? |
| 19:07.09 | carmony | http://www.justincarmony.com/blog/ |
| 19:07.28 | herlo | do you wish to be on the planet? |
| 19:07.48 | carmony | sure :) |
| 19:08.03 | herlo | ahh, wordpress, done! |
| 19:08.04 | carmony | is it just an agregate of utah developer/linux users? |
| 19:08.27 | herlo | DexterTheDragon: carmony: do you guys have hackergotchis somewheres? |
| 19:08.31 | herlo | carmony: yes, it is |
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| 19:09.14 | DexterTheDragon | still haven't gotten around to that yet |
| 19:10.17 | carmony | I don't know what those are ;) |
| 19:11.06 | DexterTheDragon | its a stupid name for an avatar |
| 19:11.54 | carmony | lol |
| 19:12.10 | fungus | ~wiki hackergotchi |
| 19:13.39 | carmony | http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/42e57550044496027f9a3a4303f13362?s=80 |
| 19:17.36 | orsonj | I like this style: http://www.geekculture.com/geekculturestore/webstore/nitroportraits.html |
| 19:22.37 | mgeary | so i finally got wsgi/apache/django all playing together nicely |
| 19:22.54 | mgeary | wasn't difficult, once i figured out what each config was actually trying to do |
| 19:23.37 | fungus | still the biggest stumbling block left for python/django web dev. Deployment. |
| 19:24.47 | herlo | carmony: thx |
| 19:26.27 | mgeary | fungus: agreed |
| 19:33.01 | tierra | some fun numbers to think about (I don't remember if I linked this here already): http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pSCYT5wLJ2-ff4sbFhExDJA&gid=3 |
| 19:34.22 | unum | tierra: where did you get the numbers from |
| 19:34.32 | tierra | those are compiled from ohloh.net stats |
| 19:34.51 | tierra | so I think that's a fair representation of open source projects |
| 19:35.48 | thebigdog | im glad i still have my tcl skillz |
| 19:35.54 | unum | SQL? |
| 19:36.32 | tierra | unum: see the other tab (All Languages) |
| 19:37.02 | tierra | I tried to kind of split up the graph for real programming languages as best I could... filtered out the markup languages |
| 19:37.39 | unum | FSLC was founded by a key aol server thing project |
| 19:37.49 | unum | I can't remember what it's called now but it used TCL |
| 19:38.06 | unum | so a lot of TCL got spread around USU campus for a while |
| 19:41.12 | tierra | I really wish there was a way to compile the same numbers, except with closed source projects |
| 19:41.31 | tierra | I suspect that Java and C# would be _much_ bigger |
| 19:42.09 | unum | depends on if you included legacy products that were in use |
| 19:42.13 | tierra | Perl would too probably (everyone knows that companies love tossing money into migrating working perl scripts, heh) |
| 19:44.20 | tierra | http://ln-s.net/2UxG |
| 19:44.52 | tierra | ^ that really illustrates what languages are growing and which are dying |
| 19:51.32 | fungus | The rate of decrease for C or C++ is greater than the increase of any other language. |
| 19:52.19 | fungus | Which means there is no one language taking over for C/C++, it is being replaced by varied languages. |
| 19:53.11 | fungus | So the future fortells many languages and no single language to rule them all. |
| 19:53.18 | fungus | Very interesting |
| 19:54.24 | tierra | good observation |
| 19:54.57 | _psychic_ | I bet you see a bit of a spike in C |
| 19:55.15 | SunSparc | _psychic_: iPhone stuff? |
| 19:55.27 | _psychic_ | yeah that, and Flash Player stuff. |
| 19:55.34 | tierra | that's Objective-C actually |
| 19:55.38 | tierra | (for iPhone) |
| 19:55.47 | _psychic_ | you can embed C stuff in it |
| 19:55.50 | _psychic_ | or C++ |
| 19:56.01 | tierra | you can, but most apps probably don't |
| 19:56.13 | _psychic_ | game |
| 19:56.22 | _psychic_ | games are a bit piece of the iphone app pie |
| 19:56.33 | _psychic_ | many of them depend on C/C++ libs for 3d stuff |
| 19:56.34 | tierra | Our Mac OS X release of Phoenix does in fact use C++ tied into a few Objective-C libraries |
| 19:56.40 | _psychic_ | or it's an already existing game they ported |
| 19:56.59 | tierra | and that's going to grow a lot more in the next couple years |
| 19:57.50 | tierra | but then again, our application will remain on C++ primarily |
| 19:58.12 | tierra | but that's because we code cross-platform |
| 19:58.21 | fungus | Strange, if you add Ruby to the graph you see a huge dip recently. |
| 19:58.29 | tierra | there is no cross-platform iPhone apps, their iPhone apps, heh |
| 19:58.35 | fungus | perhaps the Ruby fad is over? |
| 19:59.14 | SunSparc | Poor rails fanboys... |
| 19:59.37 | tierra | I've seen some very harsh Ruby blog posts... It was a huge fad for a bit, I guess people are realizing that it doesn't work |
| 20:01.25 | tierra | just read part of a new one yesterday actually |
| 20:02.24 | tierra | http://michael.thegrebs.com/2008/11/11/rubys-not-ready/ |
| 20:02.27 | tierra | er, |
| 20:02.28 | unum | I was just talking to someone who I think was working on a cross platform app where the iphone is a target |
| 20:02.30 | tierra | http://glyphobet.net/blog/essay/228 |
| 20:02.32 | SunSparc | Really? I thought I heard some good stuff about it. |
| 20:03.36 | unum | I should try pylons |
| 20:04.05 | unum | the thing I like about php is if I need to show one thing from database on my web page I can escape run the query and show the data |
| 20:04.45 | unum | with python(atleast the setup my predecessor was using) I had to use print """ for the entire page |
| 20:05.32 | fungus | That might be fine for a quick/temporary page, but you really should be using a template system. |
| 20:05.40 | fungus | mixing HTML and PHP/Python is bad. |
| 20:06.30 | fungus | well actually... mixing presentation and business logic is bad |
| 20:07.03 | fungus | unum: don't forget to try django |
| 20:08.42 | tierra | btw, those graphs represent the percentage of projects that have had at least one commit with those languages, not the amount of code, so it's more of a "how many projects are using even just a little of these languages) |
| 20:09.39 | tierra | if you add CSS on there, you all are probably plenty aware that there's not _that_ much CSS needed on any project, but it's right up there with Java in those graphs |
| 20:09.52 | tierra | but there's just a ton of projects that use it somewhere |
| 20:10.57 | tierra | guess that all could apply to how often you need to modify some code somewhere for any particular language... some are always in a constant state of minor modifications while others might typically get written once, and never touched after |
| 20:12.08 | dataw0lf | Ruby is ready. It's just that the DHH morons have hijacked the community, but it's starting to slack now. |
| 20:12.37 | dataw0lf | The number and variety of Ruby interpreters and environments should not be overlooked, its much more than Python's. |
| 20:13.22 | _psychic_ | I think twitter has scared a few people off. |
| 20:13.24 | dataw0lf | This could be explained away that Ruby core, in contrast to Python core, doesn't put any emphasis on interpreter speed. |
| 20:13.34 | dataw0lf | But JRuby is a fantastic VM. |
| 20:13.42 | dataw0lf | Much more so than Jython. |
| 20:13.52 | dataw0lf | Twitter is Rails. It's not Ruby. |
| 20:13.59 | dataw0lf | or rather, representative of Ruby. |
| 20:14.12 | _psychic_ | I realize that, but I think it's still had an impact. |
| 20:14.21 | SunSparc | How can it be rails but not ruby? |
| 20:14.39 | dataw0lf | or rather, representative of Ruby. |
| 20:14.44 | _psychic_ | It's all in how you wield the tool. |
| 20:14.52 | dataw0lf | Rails is idiomatically insane. |
| 20:14.54 | dataw0lf | Ruby isn't. |
| 20:14.59 | dataw0lf | Try Merb. |
| 20:14.59 | SunSparc | Ah |
| 20:15.19 | dataw0lf | and "I should try Pylons"... if you don't like Rails, you won't like Pylons. |
| 20:15.40 | dataw0lf | Pylons is essentially a Python clone of Rails. |
| 20:15.47 | dataw0lf | and not very Pythonic, at that. |
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| 20:19.09 | fungus | http://glyphobet.net/blog/essay/228 |
| 20:19.26 | fungus | This guy seems to think Ruby is not ready |
| 20:19.30 | dataw0lf | If you want to use Ruby in a more... Rubyish way, try out Camping. It's a microframework. |
| 20:19.32 | fungus | is he wrong? |
| 20:19.55 | fungus | in his main three points that is. |
| 20:20.16 | dataw0lf | He's comparing Ruby to Python on Pythonic terms. It's unfair. |
| 20:20.45 | dataw0lf | Python doesn't encourage TMTOWTDI |
| 20:20.47 | dataw0lf | Ruby does |
| 20:21.15 | dataw0lf | There are intrinsic differences in the idiom and paradigm of each language. |
| 20:21.21 | fungus | true |
| 20:21.27 | dataw0lf | To compare them because |
| 20:21.29 | fungus | I didn't think about that part. |
| 20:21.36 | dataw0lf | "OMG THERE IS MORE THAN ONE GOOD WAY TO DO THIS OMG" |
| 20:21.42 | dataw0lf | is completely unfair. |
| 20:21.42 | fungus | That is probably why I like python more anyway |
| 20:21.47 | dataw0lf | Now I tend to prefer Python because of this. |
| 20:22.03 | dataw0lf | But Ruby has some remarkable things about it - IF you can make a paradigm shift. |
| 20:22.22 | _psychic_ | I like flexibility but not illegibility (Ruby). |
| 20:22.37 | dataw0lf | I think engineers not having a more academic approach when it comes to this (CS grad or whatever) tends to cause problems. |
| 20:22.54 | fungus | So how does the Ruby paradigm compare to Perl's? |
| 20:23.07 | dataw0lf | If you can't get your head around Ruby's Smalltalk-esque method / object paradigm, or it's Scheme-esque functional paradigm, you're going to fail from the start and not like it |
| 20:24.04 | fungus | Maybe Ruby is worth learning. At least for the Academic perspective anyway. |
| 20:25.04 | fungus | Will Ruby eventually fade into Academia like Smalltalk and Scheme? |
| 20:25.18 | dataw0lf | Python is the best at it's paradigm, Ruby is the best at it's own. |
| 20:25.39 | dataw0lf | I truly doubt it. Neither Smalltalk nor Scheme had the push that Ruby had with a popular software framework. |
| 20:25.53 | dataw0lf | And Ruby does what Smalltalk and Scheme do but in a better way |
| 20:25.57 | dataw0lf | for the most part |
| 20:26.09 | beandog | http://www.flickr.com/photos/elbewerk/214973132/ |
| 20:26.20 | fungus | Yes, but as the Rails fad fades, will Ruby fade with it. |
| 20:26.30 | dataw0lf | doubtful. Look the spring of Ruby frameworks. |
| 20:26.42 | dataw0lf | Also, the separate components of Rails makes it easier to just discard Rails in the first place. |
| 20:26.50 | dataw0lf | I really like ActiveRecord |
| 20:27.08 | dataw0lf | ActiveResource and it's REXML back can be traced back to a lot of problems Rails has had |
| 20:27.11 | dataw0lf | (REXML is garbage) |
| 20:27.14 | fungus | Yes, the ActiveRecord pattern is really cool. But that has been replicated to other languages pretty well |
| 20:27.34 | dataw0lf | I don't see Ruby going anywhere. |
| 20:27.34 | tierra | I'm more interested in getting work done than trying out new things in a production environment that everyone is doing different, thus I have less support for doing it my own way |
| 20:27.38 | dataw0lf | PHP will die off before Ruby does. |
| 20:28.21 | fungus | PHP won't be dying in the near future though. that is a long way off. |
| 20:28.39 | fungus | 10+ years at least |
| 20:28.54 | dataw0lf | You're never going to see PHP taught in an academic environment (and if you do I'll never hire anybody who graduates from there). Ruby probably will as functional programming educational tool, at the very least |
| 20:29.09 | dataw0lf | especially as functional programming has come to the forefront. |
| 20:29.22 | _psychic_ | Yeah they teach the useful practical stuff like Lisp and Haskell. |
| 20:29.28 | fungus | lol |
| 20:29.34 | dataw0lf | more practical than PHP. |
| 20:29.42 | _psychic_ | Evidence indicates otherwise. |
| 20:29.46 | dataw0lf | If you learn Lisp and Haskell, you'll learn the academics behind programming paradigms. |
| 20:29.56 | dataw0lf | Take a PHP programmer out of his environment and what do you have? |
| 20:29.56 | fungus | huh? PHP takes practical to the extreme. |
| 20:30.18 | _psychic_ | So says the Python prophet. |
| 20:30.18 | fungus | practical to the point of danger almost. |
| 20:30.29 | dataw0lf | I can teach someone who understands programming theory more easily than I can teach someone who has learned C syntax and memorized a couple dozen functions. |
| 20:30.40 | _psychic_ | If you're talking about high-school script kiddies building counterstrike clan websites in PHP, I agree with you. |
| 20:31.05 | dataw0lf | I haven't met many PHP programmers who have knowledge of other languages to any sort of extent |
| 20:31.39 | _psychic_ | I haven't met many Vietnamese doctors. |
| 20:31.41 | dataw0lf | and all PHP has to offer is the rudiments of OOP and that's about it. |
| 20:31.55 | dataw0lf | _psychic_: are you in the medical field? |
| 20:31.56 | fungus | I can hold my own pretty well with Python, Perl, etc. But I guess I wouldn't title myself of "PHP Programmer". |
| 20:32.00 | dataw0lf | Because I'm in the web development field. |
| 20:32.39 | dataw0lf | and I know a metric ton of PHP programmers. |
| 20:32.47 | _psychic_ | And they suck. |
| 20:32.48 | dataw0lf | and I have taught a metric ton of PHP programmers |
| 20:32.57 | dataw0lf | and rehabilitated half a metric ton of PHP programmers. |
| 20:33.38 | _psychic_ | I know a ton of baptists. :) |
| 20:34.00 | dataw0lf | All I'm saying is that the technical knowledge of PHP programmers is at the very low end, for the most part. |
| 20:34.02 | tierra | I agree with dataw0lf, programmers taught on PHP first have an extremely hard time grasping concepts necessary for scalability for one |
| 20:34.11 | SunSparc | How many programmers is equal to a metric ton? If each is about 90kgs on average.... |
| 20:34.33 | _psychic_ | dataw0lf: All I'm saying is anecdotal evidence supporting broad generalizations isn't usually a great way to form a premise. |
| 20:34.34 | dataw0lf | tierra: necessary for any sort of complex operation, really. |
| 20:34.45 | tierra | yeah |
| 20:34.57 | dataw0lf | from functional programming to _real_ OOP to caching to ... whatever. |
| 20:35.02 | fungus | SunSparc: that's 11.11 programmers |
| 20:35.13 | SunSparc | fungus: hehe |
| 20:35.28 | SunSparc | dataw0lf: where did you find the .11th programmer? |
| 20:35.45 | dataw0lf | Hobbiton. |
| 20:35.49 | SunSparc | LOL |
| 20:36.26 | dataw0lf | Also, I'll say this: I've never seen a programmer become a better programmer because of _good_ things they learned from PHP |
| 20:36.37 | dataw0lf | They learn from all the bad habits that PHP provides |
| 20:36.40 | dataw0lf | tierra: do you agree? |
| 20:37.15 | dataw0lf | and generally this is how I rate a language. I'm not going to say any language is useless. Perl will teach you what not to do in an extreme manner, and PHP to a lesser extent. |
| 20:37.34 | dataw0lf | But I've seen people learn so much from _good_ habits taught in Python, and to a lesser extent Ruby |
| 20:38.16 | SunSparc | dataw0lf: In general, I would have to agree. It is not a language with a traditional history of good programming practices and solid foundations of oop. |
| 20:39.07 | SunSparc | However, in specific, there are some amazing programmers who do write some very beautiful and amazing PHP code out there. |
| 20:39.08 | carmony | I will agree that "PHP only" developers could learn a lot from using other languages. When I had to learn Java, .NET, and Python I gained a better understanding of OOP, and best practices in Programming in general. |
| 20:39.33 | SunSparc | I think that goes the same for any "only" category. |
| 20:39.49 | dataw0lf | SunSparc: oh, I'd agree, and that's everywhere in any language. I just think that people who limit themselves to PHP are doing themselves a far greater disservice than those who limit themselves to a lot of other languages. |
| 20:40.05 | SunSparc | Anyone who has only lived or visited one state, or only ever lived or visited one country could learn a lot from venturing out. |
| 20:42.12 | carmony | Thats why I've stopped calling myself a "PHP Developer" and call myself a "Software Engineer" |
| 20:43.59 | dataw0lf | Anyways, I think that Rails success has as much to do with PHP as it has to do with anything else. |
| 20:44.20 | dataw0lf | Ruby is a more flexible language and people realized that after suffering silently through PHP for years |
| 20:44.49 | dataw0lf | But because they were PHP developers and didn't really understand the Ruby paradigm they picked Rails |
| 20:44.59 | dataw0lf | and DHH made it deceptively easy, I'll give him that. |
| 20:45.13 | carmony | DHH? |
| 20:45.19 | dataw0lf | the creator of Rails. |
| 20:45.44 | dataw0lf | david heinemeier hansson or however you spell his ridiculous name. |
| 20:45.52 | dataw0lf | Good marketer, not a very good developer. |
| 20:47.10 | dataw0lf | But the Rails boom had almost all beneficial effects for Ruby. If you think it's going away, you're nuts. |
| 20:47.21 | dataw0lf | With things like Merb, Camping, et. al, not going to happen. |
| 20:47.42 | _psychic_ | I think the fail whale dampened the boom. |
| 20:48.47 | dataw0lf | If Rails had _succeeded_ it would've been worse. |
| 20:48.49 | _psychic_ | Or at least deflated the hype bubble a bit. |
| 20:48.58 | dataw0lf | now you have a bunch of other frameworks in Ruby. |
| 20:49.15 | dataw0lf | when actual engineers realized Rails was poorly designed from the beginning |
| 20:49.21 | dataw0lf | by a PHP developer learning Ruby for the first time ;-)( |
| 20:50.05 | dataw0lf | and I don't see Rails going anywhere, either. Rails 2 has done a lot. |
| 20:50.28 | dataw0lf | there's nothing remotely comparable to ActiveRecord 2.0 sexy migrations in any language I've used. |
| 20:51.01 | dataw0lf | and since Merb uses some of the same components as Rails (ActiveRecord), they'll still be actively maintained even if Rails does go away. |
| 20:52.02 | dataw0lf | In the meantime, if you want to look at the pinnacle of a Rails 2 application, check out github. |
| 20:57.10 | carmony | have there been any new languages come out lately? When was the last new language to come out? |
| 20:58.25 | fungus | Perl6... ROFL! |
| 20:58.45 | dataw0lf | no idea. I'm learning ObjC right now. |
| 20:59.10 | fungus | Wow, talk about reform of the apple basher. |
| 20:59.33 | dataw0lf | hey now, I always liked ObjC, just never bothered to use it, since I didn't use Macs. |
| 20:59.33 | carmony | bah, I'm struggling with ObjC, but I don't think its ObjC's fault, as much as its very different from my previous work |
| 21:00.06 | dataw0lf | what type of problems are you having? |
| 21:00.27 | fungus | an apple basher using a mac is one thing, but programming for it... Next you'll be competing for Steve Jobs position. |
| 21:00.37 | fungus | ;) |
| 21:00.58 | carmony | Memory leaks is a issue for me :P |
| 21:01.15 | dataw0lf | Never done manual memory management before? |
| 21:01.19 | dataw0lf | fungus: hehe. |
| 21:01.27 | carmony | not on a large scale, no |
| 21:01.31 | dataw0lf | fungus: I'm writing a dice roll application for the iPhone |
| 21:01.41 | dataw0lf | carmony: well. that'll catch you. |
| 21:02.05 | carmony | when I was learning C++ for a class, but a real application I haven't done much. |
| 21:02.33 | dataw0lf | fungus: I've started a D&D 4th edition campaign, was thinking of a good way to learn ObjC, so I'm writing an application where you have a dice pool of all different types of dice (d4 - d20), and you pick a couple, then shake (roll) the iphone, and get the result |
| 21:02.36 | carmony | Just when I'm coding I get that feeling like "I *know* there has to be a better way to do this, I just have no clue." |
| 21:02.49 | dataw0lf | hopefully with cool GL effects. |
| 21:02.50 | fungus | dataw0lf: that's lame, Write me a Nagios iPhone interface. |
| 21:03.22 | dataw0lf | Dude. I've been writing network applications since I was 12. I wanted to do something FUN |
| 21:03.54 | fungus | Nagios is fun... right? |
| 21:03.54 | dataw0lf | hmmm Nagios iPhone interface, hmmmm |
| 21:04.18 | fungus | oh wait, not when it wakes you up at 3am. :( |
| 21:04.40 | dataw0lf | it'd probably just be easier to write a email / web interface and just the iphone to access that |
| 21:04.43 | dataw0lf | just use* |
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| 21:07.10 | carmony | I'd agree, web interface for the iphone would work well |
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| 21:08.43 | dataw0lf | _psychic_: it's a lot more simplistic in some ways, more complex in others. Rather strange, but I'm digging it for the most part |
| 21:10.56 | _psychic_ | That seems to be the general consensus among those I've asked |
| 21:11.09 | _psychic_ | wonder if I can still ebay my 3.5 stuff |
| 21:11.29 | dataw0lf | might be able to get more from Craig's List |
| 21:12.15 | dataw0lf | the way they do spells now is extremely odd |
| 21:12.21 | _psychic_ | ? |
| 21:12.29 | _psychic_ | kinda like feats? |
| 21:12.34 | dataw0lf | kind of |
| 21:12.38 | dataw0lf | every class has powers |
| 21:12.51 | dataw0lf | that they can use at-will, once per encounter, or once per day |
| 21:13.02 | dataw0lf | so magic missile is a level one at-will power of wizards. |
| 21:13.17 | _psychic_ | weird. |
| 21:13.25 | dataw0lf | yea I still don't completely understand it |
| 21:13.36 | _psychic_ | But given the choice to play 3.5 or 4 you'd pick 4? |
| 21:13.47 | dataw0lf | hmmm |
| 21:14.01 | dataw0lf | let me play some more and I'll be able to give you a formulated opinion on that |
| 21:14.07 | dataw0lf | I've only DM'ed one session so far |
| 21:14.14 | _psychic_ | Permission granted |
| 21:14.19 | beandog | mm, ffmpeg++ |
| 21:14.21 | _psychic_ | DMing is sorta different |
| 21:14.27 | mgeary | beandog: word |
| 21:14.37 | beandog | I didnt know til now it can encode to wmv, wma. |
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| 21:31.42 | redroy | Does anybody have recommendations on a free task/bug tracker? I've been using taskfreak for tasks but was hoping to get an all-in-one system that is fairly simple |
| 21:34.24 | _psychic_ | flyspray mantis bugzilla redmine trac |
| 21:34.37 | _psychic_ | unfuddle |
| 21:34.46 | mgeary | i've used mantis for years |
| 21:34.49 | wps | is unfuddle free? |
| 21:34.49 | mgeary | works for me |
| 21:34.56 | olds | we use fogbugz |
| 21:35.33 | redroy | wow, thanks! I'll check 'em out |
| 21:35.34 | olds | unfuddle looks night |
| 21:35.35 | tierra | I think the list is only missing eventum |
| 21:35.37 | olds | *nice |
| 21:36.08 | olds | I am not a fan of mantis |
| 21:36.25 | tierra | yeah, mantis sucks imho |
| 21:36.31 | mgeary | works for me |
| 21:36.53 | DexterTheDragon | I think you have to get past the color combos on mantis |
| 21:38.13 | olds | don't really have a problem with the colors |
| 21:38.21 | olds | just way too many dropdowns everywhere |
| 21:38.53 | _psychic_ | wps: there are free accounts up to a point |
| 21:38.58 | wps | ah |
| 21:38.58 | _psychic_ | I use it for personal projects all the time |
| 21:39.46 | _psychic_ | springloops is also kewl |
| 21:39.53 | _psychic_ | it even has a deploy feature |
| 21:41.21 | tierra | Mantis' organization and issue customization isn't that great, aside from the retarded default color scheme... and now it's trying to be a trac clone by adding dokuwiki as the builtin wiki, a docs plugin, and roadmap / target stuff... it's kinda like PHP trac in it's infantsy, you might as well just use Trac |
| 21:42.04 | beandog | I wish there was a local store that sold Mini ITX boards. |
| 21:42.41 | _psychic_ | the cake team just releashed the chaw too |
| 21:52.44 | redroy | very cool, thanks again |
| 22:03.31 | mindjuju | i always that chaw was chew that had been chewed |
| 22:03.41 | _psychic_ | http://thechaw.com/ |
| 22:03.48 | mgeary | it's a leafy green vegetable, much like okra |
| 22:09.26 | mgeary | TMI |
| 22:11.14 | carmony | lol |
| 22:11.16 | carmony | amen |
| 22:24.47 | *** part/#uphpu mgeary (n=mgeary@166.70.44.49) |
| 22:54.04 | wps | http://www.muranakafarm.com/img/inside_products_leek.jpg |
| 23:00.10 | DexterTheDragon | mindjuju: http://www.joystiq.com/2008/11/21/gordon-freeman-receives-crowbar-will-defend-raging-hadron/ |
| 23:00.50 | mindjuju | that's awesome |
| 23:01.38 | DexterTheDragon | did you look at the photo gallery |
| 23:01.43 | wps | I'm so sick of seeing Classmates.com ads |
| 23:02.04 | thebigdog | they are trying to tell you something wps |
| 23:02.13 | mindjuju | which galleries |
| 23:02.18 | wps | what would that be? |
| 23:02.29 | thebigdog | wps, your friends miss you |
| 23:02.33 | DexterTheDragon | mindjuju: http://picasaweb.google.com/reddit/GordonFreemanCERNAndAWreckingBar?authkey=bqut7SFV-Cc# |
| 23:02.34 | fungus | lol, "raging hadron" |
| 23:03.39 | mindjuju | :) |
| 23:04.08 | herlo | fungus: you scare me sometimes :) |
| 23:05.15 | fungus | hehe |
| 23:05.43 | wps | fly? |
| 23:05.48 | thebigdog | i wanted to see gordon in his suit is all |
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| 23:36.15 | _psychic_ | http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/54652 |
| 23:36.24 | _psychic_ | DexterTheDragon: ^ |
| 23:36.58 | DexterTheDragon | yes that was mindjuju 's article that I was following up on |
| 23:37.07 | _psychic_ | oh I didn't see it |
| 23:37.12 | _psychic_ | yours reminded me o fit |
