| 00:00.20 | carmony | ~ping mindjuju |
| 00:00.20 | jbot | pong mindjuju |
| 00:20.59 | mgeary | carmony: did you check the fernplant in the corner? |
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| 01:08.32 | macnewbold | ~zippy |
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| 16:27.03 | itimber | morning guys |
| 16:28.17 | orsonj | morning |
| 16:28.45 | SunSparc | Good morning! |
| 16:28.48 | SunSparc | ~friday |
| 16:28.49 | jbot | ! ! ! F R I D A Y ! ! ! |
| 16:29.02 | orsonj | http://code.google.com/p/openipam/ <-- I know it isn't php, but this is a really nice system |
| 16:29.59 | mgeary | orsonj: looks interesting. Tell us more |
| 16:31.15 | orsonj | It is the system USU uses to manage ip addresses. When you get a new computer you login to the system and register your computer, then you get access to the network. |
| 16:31.41 | mgeary | so, something like DHCP on steroids? |
| 16:31.55 | orsonj | yep |
| 16:32.56 | orsonj | It does hotspot style register your computer before you get on the network. Works on wired and wireless. |
| 16:33.13 | mgeary | so do you need a client app? or is it purely web-based for the client? |
| 16:33.16 | orsonj | Except it hooks to LDAP for authentication |
| 16:33.27 | orsonj | web based |
| 16:33.41 | orsonj | LDAP is like Active Directory |
| 16:34.10 | orsonj | It is just a centralized password database that does more than just central passwords |
| 16:34.48 | orsonj | you can register computers before, if you know their MAC address, or register them on the spot when you connect. |
| 16:35.18 | orsonj | It also let's you signup guest computers with a specifiable number of days to time out |
| 16:37.36 | mgeary | pretty cool |
| 16:40.48 | mgeary | you know, i believe google is going to end up having powered Python to a whole new sphere of influence |
| 16:41.14 | orsonj | yep, I'm going to have to learn python because of all the cool things written in it that I'd like to hack on |
| 16:42.50 | mgeary | Dive Into Python is a good resource for programmers new to python |
| 16:43.08 | mgeary | and once you get a bit of familiarity, the Python Challenge is fun |
| 16:46.21 | mgeary | the one thing about python that's frustrating is that while there is a ton of official documentation, it's super long on spec, and super short on examples |
| 16:48.10 | unum | I wish every language had a php.net |
| 16:48.13 | unum | like site |
| 16:48.22 | unum | I need to finish my javascript reference site |
| 16:48.22 | mgeary | yes, i think it's very helpful |
| 16:48.39 | unum | the mozilla site's not bad, but I think I could do better |
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| 17:09.47 | mgeary | i am amazing |
| 17:09.56 | mgeary | i can predict exactly when my phone will ring |
| 17:10.00 | mgeary | every time |
| 17:10.13 | mgeary | "five seconds after hanging up from my last call" |
| 17:11.30 | DexterTheDragon | I predict mines going to ring when my speakers go "brrrrrrrzzzzzzzzzzttttt" |
| 17:11.36 | Utah_Dave | :) |
| 17:17.44 | fungus | unum: What is OpenDHCP. Reading the docs mention it, but I have never heard of it. |
| 17:20.38 | fungus | ahh, nm. Saw it in the source. It's a custom dhcp server |
| 17:22.46 | mgeary | get outta own |
| 17:22.48 | mgeary | *town |
| 17:33.55 | fungus | unum has shot my day. Now I gotta build a VM test environment to test and play with this openipam thing. |
| 17:34.37 | unum | that was orson |
| 17:35.02 | orsonj | ~lart fungus for confusing orson with unum |
| 17:35.02 | jbot | overclocks fungus until fungus burns out for confusing orson with unum |
| 17:35.12 | unum | orsonj: are you with the IT department now? |
| 17:35.28 | orsonj | well, at least he will be able to do the VM test quickly |
| 17:35.29 | fungus | lol, sorry orsonj |
| 17:35.53 | orsonj | I'm not with USU IT, I'm still at the bookstore. They just posted to the N-M list. |
| 17:37.29 | redroy | what's that website you use for pasting code on again? |
| 17:37.45 | DexterTheDragon | pastebin.ca |
| 17:38.18 | redroy | thanks, DexterTheDragon |
| 17:48.24 | SunSparc | ~paste |
| 17:48.24 | jbot | rumour has it, paste is http://rafb.net/paste/, or see also pb |
| 17:48.40 | SunSparc | jbot paste is also http://bin.cakephp.org/ |
| 17:48.40 | jbot | okay, SunSparc |
| 17:49.24 | fungus | ~pb |
| 17:49.25 | jbot | [~pb] A "pastebin" is a web-based service where you can paste anything over 3 lines without flooding the channel. Here are links to a few : http://www.pastebin.com , http://pastebin.ca , http://channels.debian.net/paste , http://paste.lisp.org , http://www.rafb.net/paste |
| 17:58.32 | SunSparc | Plenty of options. |
| 17:58.40 | SunSparc | Thanks for cleaning that up fungus |
| 18:58.34 | redroy | :) |
| 19:40.26 | mindjuju | thebigdog - good to see ya back |
| 19:40.34 | mindjuju | i think it was mgeary twas worried about ya |
| 19:40.34 | thebigdog | ty |
| 19:40.52 | mindjuju | i told him toro systems prolly sent ya on a consult in Bora Bora |
| 19:42.36 | thebigdog | hehe |
| 19:42.44 | thebigdog | i did have a big contract to knock out |
| 19:42.54 | mindjuju | hey dexterthedragon - VIM didn't make the cut -- i guess it sux - http://sixrevisions.com/tools/12-excellent-free-text-editors-for-coders/ |
| 19:43.13 | mindjuju | emacs did make the cut though |
| 19:43.18 | thebigdog | cause those are windows guys |
| 19:43.23 | mindjuju | funny, cause i thought people said emacs was harder |
| 19:43.41 | mindjuju | nah, theres linux and mac stuff on there |
| 19:44.29 | DexterTheDragon | mostly windows |
| 19:45.10 | mindjuju | oh, i thought when emacs was on there and jedit, it was linuxy |
| 19:45.25 | thebigdog | i think there are some mac ones that are better than what is on the list too |
| 19:46.11 | tierra | emacs is easier to start out with imo, but harder than vim to master |
| 19:46.16 | thebigdog | for all you eclipse users there is a vim eclipse app that that lets you us vim for the eclipse ui |
| 19:46.26 | mindjuju | some guy through vim on there |
| 19:46.32 | tierra | also, I use gvim on Windows almost exclusively except when working in Visual Studio |
| 19:46.35 | mindjuju | i think dexterthedragon should represent vim in the comments |
| 19:47.35 | thebigdog | tierra, ^5 on gvim windows |
| 19:47.40 | tierra | ^5 |
| 19:47.41 | thebigdog | that is the only editor to use |
| 19:47.47 | mindjuju | synic -- ravetrax is playing some awesome stuff |
| 19:47.52 | thebigdog | i set notepad to open gvim |
| 19:48.01 | tierra | hehe |
| 19:54.06 | synic | yeah, that list is automatically stupid. Bluefish sucks |
| 19:54.24 | synic | so does gedit compared to vim |
| 19:54.25 | DexterTheDragon | tierra: have you tried cream? |
| 19:54.28 | mindjuju | synic - you listenig to ravetrax? |
| 19:54.31 | synic | nah |
| 19:54.38 | mindjuju | ...sad |
| 19:54.41 | mindjuju | missing out |
| 19:56.20 | tierra | DexterTheDragon: did once, didn't like it initially, and never bothered with it since |
| 19:57.26 | DexterTheDragon | the amount of siren |
| 19:57.31 | tierra | I'll use gedit on occasion in linux depending on what I'm doing... if it involves a lot of c&p for example since I have issues with vim in terminals doing c&p |
| 19:57.58 | mindjuju | DexterTheDragon -- it needs more cowbell! |
| 19:58.16 | tierra | when I'm working on formatting/tabbing code a certain way that I haven't setup vim for, it goes to gedit |
| 19:58.17 | mindjuju | mgeary - it's all about the flow |
| 19:58.25 | mindjuju | for me at least |
| 20:00.07 | mgeary | groovy |
| 20:06.34 | synic | oh, heh, yeah, I have poignant saved |
| 20:20.34 | itimber | ^5 mindjuju (more cowbell) |
| 20:23.20 | itimber | can't connect to RaveTrax.... are they down? |
| 20:26.39 | mindjuju | nope not down |
| 20:26.59 | mindjuju | i love that more cowbell skit, best snl evar |
| 20:32.16 | itimber | mindjuju: do you know where the mp3s are of this round? Still can't connect |
| 20:32.19 | itimber | *shrug |
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| 20:33.36 | mindjuju | what i wouldn't do for a klondie bar |
| 20:34.09 | mindjuju | klondike i mean |
| 20:46.05 | macnewbold | ~klondike mindjuju |
| 20:46.13 | macnewbold | yeah, I didn't think so. |
| 20:46.23 | mindjuju | sup macnewbold |
| 20:46.59 | mgeary | jbot, klondike $1 is <action> drags $1 by the heels over the Rocky Mountains to the Frozen North, buries him neck-deep in frozen herring heads, and stuffs an ice cream bar into his mouth |
| 20:46.59 | jbot | okay, mgeary |
| 20:47.03 | mgeary | ~klondike mindjuju |
| 20:47.04 | jbot | ACTION drags mindjuju by the heels over the Rocky Mountains to the Frozen North, buries him neck-deep in frozen herring heads, and stuffs an ice cream bar into his mouth |
| 20:47.11 | mgeary | woot |
| 20:47.22 | mindjuju | yuck |
| 20:47.29 | mindjuju | ~porkchop macnewbold |
| 20:47.30 | jbot | ACTION spits on a porkchop and feeds it to macnewbold Eat up! |
| 20:50.16 | mindjuju | mgeary - not bringing this up on the political note, but more of what an interesting experiment for a HS student - http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=10671558&ch=4226716&src=news |
| 20:50.58 | mgeary | did i tell you what happened to my son over the election? |
| 20:51.05 | mindjuju | nothing bad i hope |
| 20:51.15 | mgeary | they had a mock election at school |
| 20:51.30 | mindjuju | oh, i did hear that some schools had an election |
| 20:51.48 | mgeary | and afterwards, the kids were apparently asked to raise their hands to indicate who they voted for (!!!!) |
| 20:51.56 | mindjuju | really? |
| 20:51.58 | mgeary | my son was the only Obama hand-raiser |
| 20:52.06 | mindjuju | poor little guy! |
| 20:52.13 | mindjuju | how old is he? |
| 20:52.15 | mgeary | 8 |
| 20:52.31 | mgeary | but we were hugely ticked off that they would have done that |
| 20:52.43 | mindjuju | yeah, that's not right |
| 20:52.50 | mindjuju | privacy in voting is critical |
| 20:53.01 | mindjuju | but on the other hand, you learned something aobut your boy |
| 20:53.08 | mindjuju | he's brave and stands for what he believes in |
| 20:53.16 | mindjuju | good on him! |
| 20:53.18 | mgeary | yeah, he's a good kid |
| 20:54.42 | SunSparc | Does he know who Obama is? My 6 year old voted for McCain because he liked the name better. |
| 20:54.54 | mgeary | oh yeah. There's been a lot of election talk at our house |
| 20:55.00 | SunSparc | Good for you. |
| 20:55.13 | mgeary | we all watched the results together |
| 20:55.15 | mindjuju | yeah, was going to say knowing mgeary, i'm sure his son had a good idea of what was going on |
| 20:55.29 | mgeary | we made him go to bed before the final count was in, and he made us promise to come wake him up and tell him |
| 20:55.45 | mgeary | but then the count came in just as he was hopping in bed |
| 20:55.53 | mgeary | it was really great to see him so engaged |
| 20:55.57 | mindjuju | yeah, wasn't a late night after all |
| 20:56.00 | SunSparc | Good way to instill duty to country in him. |
| 20:56.07 | mindjuju | yeah, no doubt |
| 20:56.21 | SunSparc | ~mgeary++ |
| 20:56.38 | mindjuju | ~mgeary++ |
| 20:57.16 | mindjuju | i need to get Corban more involved, but right now he's just interested in firetrucks and a girl named Miranda |
| 20:57.48 | SunSparc | You should tell him about Miranda's rights. |
| 20:57.50 | unum | not Miranda Johnson of Provo? |
| 20:57.57 | mindjuju | nope |
| 20:58.28 | mindjuju | orem |
| 20:58.29 | unum | I don't actually no a miranda |
| 20:58.37 | mindjuju | oh |
| 20:58.38 | unum | s/no/know |
| 20:58.46 | unum | I was just trying to mess with you |
| 20:58.50 | mindjuju | ah |
| 20:58.52 | unum | I almost got the city right.... |
| 20:59.03 | mindjuju | ws goign to say, i know her dad, talk to him on Sundays |
| 21:13.17 | itimber | I'm out guys....later |
| 21:13.54 | mgeary | oops |
| 21:13.56 | mgeary | Marinda |
| 21:14.06 | mgeary | don't tell my sister i messed that up |
| 21:14.33 | mindjuju | :) |
| 21:14.45 | mindjuju | hard to keep all the names straight |
| 21:49.34 | DexterTheDragon | is it the weekend yet? |
| 21:50.49 | mindjuju | i wish |
| 21:51.13 | mindjuju | dexterthedragon - did you finish the force unleashed? |
| 21:51.30 | DexterTheDragon | long time ago |
| 21:51.38 | mindjuju | was it good? |
| 21:51.43 | DexterTheDragon | oh yeah |
| 21:52.15 | mindjuju | that could be awesome |
| 21:52.29 | mindjuju | put a hard smack down on your opponents |
| 21:53.55 | DexterTheDragon | I don't believe it has multiplayer |
| 21:54.16 | mindjuju | :( -- all of mindjuju's dreams get dashed |
| 22:01.58 | goofy_cycle_and_ | bah |
| 22:02.00 | DexterTheDragon | die rundll! |
| 22:02.02 | goofy_cycle_and_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:02.28 | mindjuju | :) |
| 22:06.23 | mindjuju | _psychic_ - what kind of music is it? hard rock, alt or techno? |
| 22:08.33 | _psychic_ | techno-symphonic? |
| 22:08.36 | _psychic_ | with some rock? |
| 22:08.45 | _psychic_ | http://www.hans-zimmer.com/fr/mv/promo/cod4/BogA_Tankdefense_v1.mp3 |
| 22:09.24 | mindjuju | hans zimmer? he does way good stuff |
| 22:11.18 | mindjuju | OST - Twister | backdraft come to mind |
| 22:11.49 | mgeary | Power of One |
| 22:12.01 | mindjuju | that was an awesome movie, but the book was better |
| 22:12.04 | mgeary | that has a good OST |
| 22:12.12 | mindjuju | yeah, have the tape and CD on that |
| 22:12.44 | DexterTheDragon | and Pirates of the Caribbean |
| 22:13.28 | DexterTheDragon | and the batman movies |
| 22:14.38 | mindjuju | not burton batman though, cause that that was elfman |
| 22:14.45 | mindjuju | haven't seen the new new ones |
| 22:14.56 | DexterTheDragon | mindjuju: psah |
| 22:14.57 | _psychic_ | pirates? are you sure? |
| 22:15.47 | DexterTheDragon | on the last 2 |
| 22:15.59 | DexterTheDragon | the first was by Klaus Badelt |
| 22:17.09 | _psychic_ | ah |
| 22:17.12 | _psychic_ | I kinda liked his better |
| 22:17.56 | DexterTheDragon | well the first movie was just all around better |
| 22:19.27 | _psychic_ | Most are. |
| 22:19.56 | _psychic_ | book > first movie > second movie > prequel > straight to DVD movie |
| 22:20.21 | DexterTheDragon | > video game |
| 22:20.30 | DexterTheDragon | * movie |
| 22:20.48 | mindjuju | that's true in all cases but hunt for red october which was book =< movie |
| 22:21.03 | mindjuju | think who didn't that movie have, as far as heavyweights go? |
| 22:21.21 | DexterTheDragon | and LotR :) |
| 22:21.36 | unum | the first time I tried to watch the hunt for red october I turn it off |
| 22:21.39 | mindjuju | ooo yeah, they did cut out a lot of the songs which got of bogged down the books |
| 22:21.49 | mindjuju | whaaaa???? |
| 22:21.52 | unum | I was so mad about how they changed the russian captains character |
| 22:21.53 | mindjuju | twas a goot movie |
| 22:22.17 | mgeary | hey, i need a fresh perspective on an apache problem |
| 22:22.19 | mindjuju | did they change him much |
| 22:22.26 | unum | it was mostly because I started at a bad point |
| 22:22.34 | unum | where it seemed like they completely changed him |
| 22:22.43 | unum | when I watched the whole movie it wasn't so bad |
| 22:22.51 | mgeary | i've got a virtual named host that's not being picked up |
| 22:22.54 | mindjuju | i thought the only part they changed was the part of the airplane crash landing on the deck of the ship |
| 22:23.04 | mindjuju | it wasn't the plane wings bumped like they say in the movie |
| 22:23.18 | mindjuju | was accidental fire from a russian mig, As far as i remember |
| 22:23.42 | mgeary | it's falling back on the global documentRoot, instead of that defined in the <virtualHost> |
| 22:23.54 | unum | the captain seems to push his people through red route 1 in the movie |
| 22:24.14 | unum | where as in the book clancy specificly states that the captian doesn't do that like other captians do |
| 22:24.59 | unum | mgeary: can you show us your virtualhost config |
| 22:25.09 | unum | and you did restart apache right :) |
| 22:25.17 | mgeary | yes to the latter |
| 22:25.19 | mgeary | not really to the former |
| 22:25.42 | mgeary | the virtualhost logs are being created, so it appears that apache doesn't have a problem with the config |
| 22:25.53 | mgeary | but no activity is hitting the vh |
| 22:25.59 | mgeary | it's all getting caught in the default config |
| 22:27.06 | DexterTheDragon | does apache say anything when it starts? |
| 22:27.10 | mgeary | i'm using my /etc/hosts to map the IP to the domain, because the DNS hasn't updated yet |
| 22:27.19 | mgeary | nope, apache doesn't complain at all |
| 22:27.29 | unum | it's likely a typo in your servername or document root |
| 22:27.36 | unum | anything in the error logs? |
| 22:27.39 | DexterTheDragon | you have both DocumentRoot and Directory set? |
| 22:28.34 | unum | do you have it bound to all ips? |
| 22:28.41 | mgeary | don't have Directory set |
| 22:28.46 | mgeary | only one ip |
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| 22:29.16 | unum | is the ip that it bound to the same one that you have it linked to in the host file? |
| 22:29.54 | mgeary | yes |
| 22:30.22 | mgeary | i think it's the Directory |
| 22:31.11 | mgeary | nope |
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| 22:45.43 | mindjuju | this explains a LOT - http://www.sciam.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=brain-sacks-out-in-stages-08-11-11 |
| 22:46.03 | mindjuju | now if only i could get the cells to run in shifts so that parts are on duty while others are off |
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| 23:00.37 | mgeary | ~comment chars that you can do with your left hand++ |
| 23:00.43 | mgeary | #++ |
| 23:00.46 | mgeary | /-- |
| 23:00.50 | mgeary | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:02.11 | DexterTheDragon | ,/++ |
| 23:02.56 | mgeary | ,/ ?? |
| 23:03.09 | DexterTheDragon | my vim shortcut :) |
| 23:03.12 | mgeary | ah |
| 23:03.31 | mgeary | yeah, i guess in vim you don't care about left hand/right hand |
| 23:03.52 | mgeary | i've love to be proficient at a left-hand-only keyboard |
| 23:34.41 | mindjuju | @fungus - i've heard you talk aobut this often, it's interesting and while i haven't read the entire thing, i think they are trying to say that security by obscurity is a good thing - http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/cc510319.aspx |
| 23:34.55 | mindjuju | but as i say, i have only read the top 1/3 |
| 23:35.41 | mgeary | security by obscurity isn't really *bad*, it just can't be the *only* layer, imo |
| 23:36.03 | DexterTheDragon | yep |
| 23:47.23 | fungus | mgeary is right. security by obscurity is only good when it is an additional layer over an already properly secured system |
| 23:47.59 | fungus | First priority is to secure the system, Second or third comes adding in obscurity layers |
| 23:49.03 | mindjuju | i thought the principle of security by obscurity meant that you had a known issue, you left the issue and hid it under the rug and hoped nobody looked under there |
| 23:49.19 | mindjuju | which is quite different from "First priority is to secure the system" |
| 23:49.33 | mgeary | no |
| 23:49.33 | mindjuju | the whole thrust being you leave known bugs alone |
| 23:49.51 | mgeary | security by obscurity is like having a hidden (but possibly unprotected) url to an admin system |
| 23:50.17 | mgeary | you don't *know* that my admin system runs over port 8021, so you won't/can't compromise my system |
| 23:50.34 | mgeary | i guess that's similar to what you're saying, but not quite the same, imo |
| 23:50.35 | unum | schneier had an article about where security by obscurity actually worked |
| 23:50.39 | mindjuju | but wouldn't nmap make short work of it? |
| 23:50.47 | mgeary | mindjuju: that was just a case in point |
| 23:50.56 | mindjuju | oh |
| 23:51.05 | mgeary | what if the admin system was: my.server.com:8021/some/obscure/file.htm |
| 23:51.14 | mindjuju | k |
| 23:51.20 | mindjuju | is it locked down by password? |
| 23:51.30 | mgeary | well, if it is, that's not sec. by obsc. |
| 23:51.35 | mgeary | that's an additional layer :) |
| 23:51.38 | mindjuju | right |
| 23:51.43 | mindjuju | that's just a problem waiting to happen |
| 23:51.45 | fungus | security by obscurity includes any measures to hide your system layout or infrastructure |
| 23:52.18 | fungus | This could include moving admin web pages to a different port, or even just not linking to it anywhere. |
| 23:52.18 | mindjuju | so in that example, mgeary... actually, you're in a perfect position, hang on |
| 23:52.30 | mindjuju | let's say you, mgeary, commision one of your guys to build an admin site |
| 23:52.30 | unum | the main problem with security by obscurity in a computer system is that the bad guys usually figure it out and you just end up making things harder for the good guy |
| 23:52.44 | mindjuju | and you give the url, like you did, my.server.com:8021/some/obscure/file.htm |
| 23:52.53 | mindjuju | now, when that guy leaves your company, he still knows my.server.com:8021/some/obscure/file.htm |
| 23:52.57 | fungus | it also includes running ssh on another port |
| 23:53.05 | mindjuju | isn't it better to just password it and move on? |
| 23:53.19 | fungus | mindjuju: of course, that is the point |
| 23:53.32 | mgeary | well, mindjuju, i'm not making a case for sec. by obsc., i'm just saying it's not "bad" |
| 23:53.32 | fungus | security by obscurity is not good enough by itself. |
| 23:53.38 | mgeary | right |
| 23:53.46 | mindjuju | oh |
| 23:53.48 | mindjuju | gotcha |
| 23:53.54 | unum | I would say you have to weight the pros and cons |
| 23:53.59 | fungus | take telnet for an example. |
| 23:54.13 | fungus | running telnet on port 2323 is not good enough. |
| 23:54.20 | unum | it's different for every case |
| 23:54.31 | fungus | You need to replace it with ssh, enforce good authentication, etc. |
| 23:55.04 | fungus | Only after your good layers of security are solid, can you think about adding some obscurity |
| 23:55.42 | mindjuju | but that's not really security by obscurity, that's security AND obsucrity, no? |
| 23:55.58 | fungus | Yes. |
| 23:56.17 | fungus | obscurity does help, but it is not sufficient is my opinion. |
| 23:56.24 | mindjuju | k |
| 23:56.44 | mindjuju | you and i have actually had part of this talk before, i'm just better understanding it now |
| 23:56.52 | mgeary | it's also a semantic issue. All security has a basis in obscurity, to the extent that you're relying on someone not knowing privileged information |
| 23:57.05 | fungus | Good, it's important for every good dev/admin to understand fully. |
| 23:57.06 | mindjuju | mgeary, that's v true |
| 23:57.37 | mindjuju | like what algorithm you use to create *random* passwords |
| 23:58.04 | mindjuju | privileged info that can lead to an attack vector, but if obscure, is not |
| 23:58.47 | fungus | The term "security by obscurity" generally refers to a security measure that can be bypassed easily by knowing something simple about the infrastructure. |
| 23:59.03 | mgeary | ...that isn't a "password" ;) |
| 23:59.28 | unum | some companies try to argue that their encryption system is more secure than rsa because they won't publish how it works |
| 23:59.34 | fungus | right, passwords are an intentional secret, are not infrastructure related. |
| 23:59.57 | mgeary | unum: schneier has effectively dismantled that argument |