IRC log for #uphpu on 20080804

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13:57.23mindjujusup utah_dave
14:08.48Utah_Davemorning, mindjuju
14:11.46mindjujuutah_dave PM sent
14:12.27bwelker_i did?
14:12.32bwelker_what the
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14:13.23mindjujubwelker seems to be suffering from Multi-Personality Syndrome
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15:34.05mgeary~yow
15:40.59_psychic_~buy jbot spaceship
15:41.00jbotACTION goes to S-Mart and gets a dozen spaceships for jbot
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16:01.57mgeary~rlart
16:01.58jbotgives fungus an extra strength ACME sleeping pill, sending fungus to sleep for 150 years, and awakening to seven strange dwarfs and a large apple
16:04.54wpswow, that is random
16:27.30macnewbold~yow
16:30.36wpswho are you to ask, jbot
16:30.43wpsyou're the biggest drunk in this channel
16:33.28dataw0lfUtah_Dave: you pinged me a while back?
16:33.41macnewbold~zippy
16:33.49macnewbold~lart mindjuju1
16:33.49jbotsends a legion of lawyers after mindjuju1's head
16:33.55macnewbold~shakespeare mindjuju1
16:33.55jbotACTION stands up and quotes Shakespeare: mindjuju1 - Thou impertinent elf-skinned scullian!
16:34.00macnewbold~bdhit mindjuju1
16:34.01jbotACTION launches the Knee of the Crippled Roosters and smiles at mindjuju1's pain
16:34.16Utah_Davedataw0lf: yeah. I have a hacking question for you
16:34.26Utah_Davedo you have a minute?
16:35.49mindjuju1macnewbold - where's the love, bro?
16:36.22dataw0lfUtah_Dave: Um, yea, kinda I'll be on and off.
16:37.09Utah_Davedataw0lf: OK, we have a client/server app that was built for us years ago.
16:37.44Utah_DaveI've mostly rewritten the client, but there's on part where I have to interface with the server that I'm kind of stuck on
16:38.10Utah_Davethe current client has a username and password, then connects to the server on a certain port.
16:38.26Utah_DaveThe server just gives out lines of telephone call data
16:38.36Utah_Davelike call time, caller id info, etc
16:39.07Utah_DaveWhen I try connecting to it with telnet on that port, I just get back one line of 4 or 5 funky characters, then it stops
16:39.35Utah_DaveI'm trying to figure out how to communicate with it.
16:39.37dataw0lfhmm
16:39.43dataw0lfare you sure the info isn't serialized?
16:39.46Utah_DaveCan you point me in the right direction?
16:39.57Utah_DaveI'm not sure if it's serialized or not
16:40.05dataw0lfdo you have the old client code?
16:40.17Utah_Daveit's closed source
16:40.30dataw0lfknow what it was written in?
16:40.50dataw0lfI'd packet dump the old client / server communication for a while
16:40.57dataw0lfsee what type of handshake is going on, etc
16:41.09dataw0lfsounds to me like the data is serialized in some sort of format.
16:41.26Utah_DaveHm. I think it's C++.  There's a reference to VS2005C++ in one of the application folders
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16:41.55Utah_DaveOh, wait. I'm seeing .NetFramework2.0 as well
16:42.02Utah_Daveit's probably a combination
16:43.04dataw0lfHmmm.  Well, it sounds like you need to figure out the authentication method, which is probably those strange characters, and figure out what data format it's communicating in
16:43.26Utah_DaveOK, I'll start with looking at a packet dump.
16:43.38Utah_Davethanks!
16:43.42dataw0lfnp
17:17.33wpsanyone have any experience with amazon web services?
17:18.16wpsI am doing an Alexa lookup and it works from my server here at the office, but from my production server (in San Jose), it times out
17:18.38wpsI know I'm not giving you much, but I don't have any idea what the difference could be or where to start looking
17:19.04_psychic_how are you doing the look up?
17:19.30wpscurl
17:20.22_psychic_(what does this have to do with AWS?)
17:20.57wpsamazon bought alexa
17:22.07_psychic_but this isn't on an EC2 instance or anything
17:22.16wpswhat's EC2?
17:22.37wps(sorry I don't know much… I'm trying to debug something that someone else wrote)
17:22.50_psychic_nm
17:23.01_psychic_is the curl call working over a standard port?
17:23.05_psychic_kinda sounds like a firewall issue
17:23.12jsmithwps: EC2 is the Elastic Compute Cloud
17:23.13_psychic_and how do you know it's timing out?
17:23.20_psychic_EC2 is a AWS thing
17:23.28jsmithwps: (basically computing on demand... you pay for the CPU cycles you use)
17:23.39wpsah… yes… I know about the cloud
17:23.42wpsjust not by that name
17:23.51_psychic_the official name. :)
17:23.58wpsit returns a time out status message
17:24.04_psychic_Can you telnet from one to the other at least?
17:24.08jsmithSo EC2 is the cloud, S3 is the storage, and AWS is the wrapper for everything else
17:24.22_psychic_(SimpleDB)
17:24.38jsmithNotAdb?
17:25.54_psychic_SimpleListsOfStuff
17:26.08_psychic_TooSimpleDb
17:30.56jsmithAmazonRegistry!
17:37.01wps_psychic_: this is what I am using: http://www.amazon.com/Alexa-Web-Information-Service-home/b/ref=sc_fe_l_5?ie=UTF8&node=12782661&no=236156011&me=A36L942TSJ2AJA
17:38.22_psychic_I take it you're not using the SOAP version, then?
17:38.28wpscorrect
17:38.28wpsCURL
17:38.51wpsFYI, I found the problem. I still don't have the answer, but I am getting closer. My production server is not getting a response back from the amazon server "awis.amazonaws.com"
17:39.09wpsI think it's a network, firewall, server config problem (on our end)
17:39.32_psychic_you might just try a wget from the prod server
17:39.41wpsdid
17:39.42wpsno response
17:39.58jsmithwps: You should use the SOAP version ;-)
17:40.04_psychic_yuck
17:40.08wpsor get a new NOC
17:40.12jsmithwps: (for no other reason than to learn more about SOAP)
17:40.20_psychic_SOAP would use the same basic thing
17:40.25jsmithwps: Let's not go there.  You already know what I'll say.
17:40.30wps:)
17:40.37SunSparc~soap jsmith
17:40.37jbotACTION washes jsmith's mouth out with a fat bar of pink soap
17:40.45_psychic_The more I use SOAP, the less I like it
17:40.49_psychic_and the more useless it seems
17:40.49jsmith_psychic_: Maybe... but you're more likely to get an error message if it's a problem on their end
17:41.04_psychic_if I can't even wget, it's not their end I'm betting
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18:04.30mgearyhey, anyone want to help me shed some light on the crappy performance of a mysql query?
18:05.12mgearyhere's the query: SELECT * FROM traffic WHERE session_key IN (SELECT DISTINCT session_key FROM traffic WHERE link_id =30)
18:05.33mgearymysql explain tells me that the outer query isn't using any index, when in fact it should be using the index on the session_key field
18:07.40beandoghmm
18:07.45beandogtry an inner join instead of a sub select?
18:07.56beandogdunno.
18:17.00thebigdogmgeary, what column is the index on?
18:17.11mgearysession_key
18:17.20thebigdogdo you have one on link_id too?
18:17.32mgearyyes
18:17.53beandogtry selecting just the id instead of *
18:17.54beandogsee what it says
18:18.24jsmithHmmmn... I don't like the look of that query... doing a self-subselect is usually sub-optimal
18:18.37thebigdogyeah i would suggest one query with it
18:19.05jsmithsubselects in MySQL stink anyway
18:19.12jsmith(or at least they did back in the 3.x days)
18:20.13mgearyjust selecting the id yields the same performance
18:20.26thebigdogis it using the index?
18:20.32mgearyno
18:21.06thebigdogwhat is the query you just tested out
18:21.36mgearySELECT id FROM traffic WHERE session_key IN (SELECT DISTINCT session_key FROM traffic WHERE link_id =30)
18:21.59DexterTheDragonwhy can't you do SELECT * FROM traffic WHERE link_id =30 ?
18:22.24thebigdogdistinct
18:22.26mgearybecause the link_id is only placed on the point-of-entry rows of traffic data, and we need to evaluate all activity for each session
18:22.35mgearythebigdog: ?
18:23.07mgearythe inner query is super fast, uses the index nicely
18:23.07thebigdogthe diff between the queries is the distinct
18:23.22mgearyyeah, in plain english, this is the query:
18:23.40thebigdogthe outer query will not use an index
18:23.45mgearywhy not?
18:24.08mgeary"first, get every session key for rows that have a link_id = 30, then get every row of data with those session keys"
18:24.12thebigdogcause it is not comparing a constant
18:24.14macnewbold~rlart
18:24.14jbotslaps xilch|w upside and over the head with one freakishly huge killer whale named hugh
18:24.54mgearythebigdog: so it's just mysql being dumb
18:25.14thebigdogwell it might think it need to check the types
18:25.23mgearyi could swear i've done queries like these before that were speedy, but it's possible i didn't have the same quantity of data
18:25.28thebigdogand it will not use and index if it cannot do type checking right
18:25.35mgearyis there a way to force an index without a join?
18:26.50thebigdogi would look at trying to get it in 1 query
18:26.55thebigdoginstead of a subselect
18:29.55mgearyyeah
18:30.12mgearyi hate self-joins, but that does seem to yield an enormous improvement
18:35.37thebigdogstored procedure time
18:36.07mgearyheh
18:36.31thebigdogim sure you could get it faster
18:56.26beandoghttp://www.boingboing.net/2008/08/04/public-stringcup-tel.html
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19:05.13beandoghttp://www.flickr.com/photos/13917504@N04/2732965582/
19:05.28jsmithbeandog: That pay phone rocks!
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20:02.29mindjuju1anybody else here running ms sql2k5 ?
20:03.31mindjuju1yeah, was just going to say, if you're afraid, just PM me
20:03.37bwelkeri am, but only to grab things out and convert to MySQL
20:04.19mindjuju1bwelker , you know how you can use the function getdate() to get the current, do you know if there is an equivalent for GMT date?  
20:04.28mindjuju1i've been googling and haven't found anything
20:04.39bwelkerhmm... nope
20:04.41mindjuju1and have just cracked open 2k5 Books Online
20:04.51bwelkerlike i said, i only use it to convert to MySQL
20:04.58mindjuju1bummer, thx anyayws
20:05.17bwelkerthere might be an argument for the getdate( ) function that says what timezone to use
20:06.16bwelkerlooks like all the ann arbor phones are being replaced...
20:06.20mindjuju1yup, that's what i'm looking fer
20:06.46bwelker@ mindjuju1: yeah, sorry, can't help you
20:07.57bwelkertry GetUTCDate( )
20:09.12bwelkermindjuju1: ^^^
20:09.37mindjuju1awesome!
20:10.00mindjuju1thx dude, this is a bad day and weather forecast is for it going worse
20:10.13bwelkermindjuju1 google skills--
20:10.14bwelker;)
20:10.25bwelkerits all good
20:11.43macnewbold~seen mindjuju
20:11.47jbotmindjuju <n=mindjuju@76.8.222.130> was last seen on IRC in channel #uphpu, 5h 58m 24s ago, saying: 'bwelker seems to be suffering from Multi-Personality Syndrome '.
20:11.56macnewboldhehe, how ironic...
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20:12.43mgearyewww
20:13.04mindjuju~lart macnewbold
20:13.04jbotjudo chops macnewbold
20:14.09mgearythat reminds me. i've got an action about that somewhere here
20:15.35mgearyah, here it is
20:15.38mgeary~stinky _psychic_
20:15.39jbotACTION throws _psychic_ into the shower and scrubs vigorously with Liquid Plumber and a wire brush. "Ewww, i am NOT cleaning the hair from the drain"
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20:16.49mindjujunice!
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20:45.29mindjujubeautiful - http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080804-air-force-cracks-software-carpet-bombs-dmca.html
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20:57.47beandogmindjuju, heh, that is a great one
20:58.24mindjujugot to love it
20:58.37mindjujuyou can't sue me unless i consent, and uhhhhh...  i don't consent today
20:59.07beandogmindjuju, the really dumb part is that they start using some guys software and assume its safe to execute, not even knowing what's in it
20:59.46mgearybeandog: yeah, but you know they would have sued the guy if there was malicious code in there
20:59.55mgearyand/or imprisoned him
21:00.10beandogmgeary, right, but why the reluctance in giving up the code?
21:00.12mgearyor just no-habeas-corpus'ed him
21:00.16beandogmaybe there *is* something malicious
21:03.14Utah_Davebeandog: he didn't want to give up the code because he wanted to make some $$$
21:03.40Utah_DaveHe knows that they probably paid big bucks for some similar software from another vendor that barely worked.
21:03.56Utah_DaveSo he comes up with some software that does work and he wants them to pay up
21:04.13beandogUtah_Dave, oh, that could be.
21:05.03mindjujurisky business
21:05.08Utah_Daveyep
21:05.10*** part/#uphpu Utah_Dave (n=David_Bo@72-166-51-162.dia.static.qwest.net)
21:05.25mindjujuhe REALLY should have got a contract first
21:07.11mindjujuhave to be careful on some of that stuff, i've heard of companies that make devs sign an agreement that they own the code written at home and work
21:07.41beandogyah I just ignore those.
21:08.11mindjuju@beandog - http://consumerist.com/5032518/
21:08.15mindjujupretty dang funny
21:08.25beandogmindjuju, I know I saw that, isnt that great?
21:08.26beandog:D
21:08.31mindjujuawesome
21:08.36beandogThe real question is
21:08.40beandogWhat circuit city sells magazines?
21:08.56beandogoh, actually, they do do that now ... don't they.  At least, I remember seeing some in Best buy these days
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21:33.53beandogman
21:34.05beandogwatching Charlie the Unicorn in caca output gives it a whole new level of surreal
21:35.36mindjujui'm not sure i want to know what caca output is
21:36.30beandogcolor ascii
21:37.56mindjujusounds scary
21:38.46beandoghttp://spaceparanoids.org/img/charlie_caca.png
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21:59.41mgearyso, does anyone have any recommendations on a decent smartphone that's T-mobile friendly and can do ssh?
22:01.37SunSparcMy brother in law has an iPhone on T-mobile.
22:02.11mgearyyeah, but that walks the thin line of brickhood. plus iPhones don't do ssh, afaik
22:03.05SunSparcmgeary: http://www.crunchgear.com/2007/09/16/how-to-ssh-on-your-iphone/
22:05.47mgearyheh. cool
22:06.00mgearyhowever, that seems to emphasize ssh-ing TO your iphone, rather than FROM it
22:06.11mgearywhich is now where i'd have thought the fun was
22:06.15mgearys/now/not
22:06.18mgearys/now/not/
22:06.22mgearygrr
22:06.40_psychic_I think you've almost got some snot in there, mgeary.
22:08.38wpsI sure hope an SSH client for the iPhone comes out soon. I am sure that one hasn't yet because Apple doesn't want you digging around in the iPhones insides… but that is fine with me. I don't want one to do that. I want an SSH client so that I can SSH into remote servers FROM the iPhone. So, they just need to write one that can do just that can nothing local.
22:08.49mgearyexactly
22:08.57wps(and no, I don't want to hack my phone… I want an SSH client that's official… from the app store)
22:09.12mgearythough for me the bigger deal is using the iphone with Tmobile
22:09.17mgeary(or anyone else i chose)
22:09.46wpsI've been on several networks and haven't noticed any difference… so it doesn't matter to me who the carrier is
22:09.53thebigdogmgeary, but then you dont get the att 3g network of goodness
22:11.05beandogor the luxury of knowing theyre spying on all your traffic
22:11.37beandogwhich might bother me if my life were more interesting.
22:12.46SunSparcbeandog: If you are on #uphpu, your life is more interesting.
22:13.43beandogvery true.
22:13.56beandogand mom said Id never amount to anything
22:14.07SunSparc:)
22:14.08SunSparcjbot, make beandog's life more interesting
22:14.08jbotmake: *** No rule to make target `beandog's life more interesting'.  Stop.
22:15.18_psychic_jbot, make my day
22:15.19jbotmake: *** No rule to make target `my day'.  Stop.
22:15.30_psychic_That's what I thought, foo.
22:15.37SunSparc:)
22:16.04beandogeven our robotic friends can't help us
22:17.35SunSparcjbot, help us
22:19.53SunSparc~hex beandog
22:19.53jbotbeandog is 62 65 61 6E 64 6F 67
22:20.14_psychic_haha
22:20.44SunSparc~hex _psychic_
22:20.44jbot_psychic_  is 5F 70 73 79 63 68 69 63 5F 20
22:21.03_psychic_you got an extra space on there
22:21.05_psychic_FAIL
22:21.17SunSparc~hex FAIL
22:21.17jbotFAIL is 46 41 49 4C
22:21.22SunSparc~hex fail
22:21.22jbotfail is 66 61 69 6C
22:21.33SunSparcFAIL ~= fail
22:22.31macnewboldif anyone knows anyone looking for a php/mysql dev, I know one who's available. I haven't worked closely with him or his code, but he seems to know what he's talking about. He's open to contract or full time
22:22.32beandogI'm hexy
22:22.44SunSparcOh so hexy
22:22.45macnewboldping me if you'd like his contact info or would like me to give yours to him
22:23.02macnewbold+1 for beandog is hexy
22:23.03SunSparcmacnewbold: You talking about thebigdog?
22:23.08macnewboldnope, this is someone else
22:23.21macnewboldbut if you want me to put you in touch with thebigdog I can
22:23.37_psychic_"in touch"
22:24.24macnewboldnot too touchy though, that'd be weird
22:24.49SunSparcAnd hexy
22:24.57_psychic_I was thinking more fist to face.
22:25.16SunSparc~hex Chuck Norris
22:25.16jbotChuck Norris is 43 68 75 63 6B 20 4E 6F 72 72 69 73
22:25.53_psychic_http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/nfk/718445793.html
22:26.08SunSparcLOL
22:26.14SunSparcWhy did I not think of that.
22:26.45thebigdog~touch SunSparc
22:26.46jbotThis is Fendor's pleasure only
22:26.57SunSparc~hex thebigdog
22:26.57jbotthebigdog  is 74 68 65 62 69 67 64 6F 67 20
22:27.15thebigdogoh yeah
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22:33.25swbguys, how can I make urls case sensitive on MAMP? is it possible on a mac dev env?
22:34.13SunSparcOn a Mac?  Everything should already be case sensitive
22:34.56SunSparcUnless you formatted your drive with a case-insensitive file system.
22:35.14SunSparcEven then, apache is case sensitive for you, iirc.
22:35.32swbon MAMP, I want to make urls case sensitive (to match the live server)
22:35.43swbI think it's an apache config, but I can't find it
22:36.01SunSparcswb: Are the not case sensitive for you now?
22:36.15wpsSunSparc: HFS+ is not case sensitive by default
22:36.28swbright, URLs on a default MAMP install are case insensitive File.php and file.php both work
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22:38.49wpsMac OS Extended (Journaled) is case-insensitive
22:39.05mgearyMAMP isn't MAMP, it's DAMP
22:39.07mgearyDarwin
22:39.10mgearyimo
22:39.26mgearyand it's case-respecting, but not case-sensitive, unless you format UFS
22:42.00swbfound one forum that says "If the Operating System is not case sensitive, then Apache cannot be."
22:42.35swbI thought I might be abel to turn off mod_speling in the conf, but it didn't work
22:42.37swbblast!
22:44.50swbmgeary = very smart
22:44.54swbthanks guys
22:47.06mgearyswb: awww
22:47.29swbhehe, I don't always get what you're saying at first though  ;)
22:48.27SunSparcHmmm, maybe not yet.  Apparently, "AirPort does not function when Mac OS X is installed on a UFS formatted volume."
22:48.36mgearyyeah, i wouldn't advise UFS
22:48.48mgearyit makes the "normal" mac experience un-mac-like, iirc
22:48.53macnewboldone alternative is to force case-insensitivity on it manually... lowercase all your urls and files, for example
22:49.00macnewboldso they're safe with and without case sensitivity
22:49.02mgearyand slopping programs will cause all kinds of problems
22:49.10mgearyyeah, i vote for macnewbold's suggestion
22:49.30wpshow do you exit a screen?
22:49.38mgearyexit
22:49.40beandogctl d
22:49.40macnewboldtype 'exit', hit return
22:49.45macnewboldctrl-alt-delete
22:49.47SunSparcpower button
22:49.51macnewboldpull the plug
22:49.54beandognuclear war
22:49.55wpsand is the screen still running?
22:49.56SunSparcapple w
22:50.07macnewboldoh, wait, did you want _good_ suggestions, wps?
22:50.09mgearySunSparc: that won't do it
22:50.16swbmacnewbold, yeah, um, unless you're dealing with completely randomly named files already!
22:50.16wpsdid that terminate the screen or just remove me from it?
22:50.18SunSparcmgeary: We need more input
22:50.32mgearywps: exit will terminate the screen
22:50.40wpsk
22:50.41wpsthanks
22:50.45mgearyctrl-a + ctrl-d will remove you from it, iirc
22:50.46macnewboldswb: there is a way to fix that, with a little shell script that renames them all :-D
22:50.54swbah
22:50.59swbmeh
22:51.28wpsthe ssh timeout that our network operations has implemented on our servers pisses me off
22:51.35wpsit is so, so, so annoying
22:51.50mgearywps: did you try those keepalive measures that were mentioned here ~10 days ago
22:52.00macnewboldhehe
22:52.01wpsno… haven't had a chance
22:52.06beandogslacker!
22:52.08macnewboldopen a connection and run a ping in the background ;)
22:52.15wpswhat is the point? just limit access to only from one IP (the office) and require an SSH key
22:52.19wpswhy do you need a time out?
22:52.22macnewboldseriously
22:52.31wpslimiting from one IP and requiring a key is _plenty_ secure
22:52.32beandogfor crappy DSL connections
22:52.32macnewboldparanoia and irrational fear can be so counter productive
22:52.40wpsamen, amen, amen
22:52.49wpsgood to see you, by-the-way, mac
22:53.06beandogmacnewbold, youre just jealous of my dishgloves I wear all the time
22:53.31beandog~tinfoil
22:53.49macnewboldlikewise, wps :) how's life treating you? still hanging around with the scouts and such?
22:53.54macnewbold~tinfoil beandog
22:54.20wpsno, lost that calling when I moved 2 years ago
22:54.24wps(shows how much we talk) :)
22:54.32wpsI do have a second kid now
22:54.36beandogthat's one way to get out of a calling
22:56.43_psychic_move to China.
22:56.54beandoghttp://tenreasonsitwouldruletodateaunicorn.com/
22:57.31SunSparcLOL, that is HI Larry Us!!!!
22:57.43wpsbeandog: come on, man
22:57.55wpsyou've got to warn us before just throwing a URL out like that
22:57.58wps:)
22:59.34_psychic_Reason #11: Quick access to black market kidneys.
23:00.12SunSparcheh
23:13.53mgearystrongest association with that song: roller-skating at Classic Skating in the early-80s
23:18.10mgearystrongest association with that song: playing video games at Fun*Uv*It at the University Mall
23:18.23mgearythese memories have been brought to you by the letter L
23:27.20SunSparcmgeary: Thanks for the memories
23:27.43mgearydoes anyone here even remember Fun*Uv*It?
23:28.51mgearyman, i must have pumped about five thousand quarters into those video games as a teenager
23:29.07SunSparcSounds familiar

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