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| 14:36.25 | beandog | ~hola |
| 14:37.02 | mindjuju1 | ~give beandog a tacobell hot sauce packet |
| 14:37.02 | jbot | ACTION gives a tacobell hot sauce packet to beandog |
| 14:37.47 | beandog | heya mindjuju1 |
| 14:37.49 | beandog | que tal |
| 14:39.05 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o mindjuju] by ChanServ |
| 14:40.29 | mindjuju | @beandog , just wondering if i'm cool enough to be the iphone 3g |
| 14:40.50 | beandog | mindjuju, nothing is too cool for you |
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| 15:18.06 | timinator | morning guys |
| 15:18.09 | timinator | *yawn |
| 15:18.38 | mindjuju | morning |
| 15:23.29 | SunSparc | Morning! |
| 15:24.32 | beandog | g'nite |
| 15:24.46 | mgeary | ~smack timinator for making me yawn |
| 15:24.47 | jbot | ACTION smacks timinator for making me yawn upside the head. |
| 15:26.27 | timinator | LOL |
| 15:27.55 | SunSparc | Those things are contagious. |
| 15:30.24 | mindjuju | i wonder what ever happened to trevyn |
| 15:30.32 | mindjuju | hasn't been in, in a while |
| 15:30.37 | mindjuju | maybe got sued for some of those comments |
| 15:30.41 | mindjuju | ~seen trevyn |
| 15:30.42 | jbot | trevyn <n=Trevyn@99-204-44-87.area1.spcsdns.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #uphpu, 33d 18h 1m 33s ago, saying: 'Boo'. |
| 15:31.18 | mgeary | he had a different nick last time |
| 15:31.20 | mgeary | had a 1 in it |
| 15:34.53 | mindjuju | no comments since Mar 21 |
| 15:40.25 | *** join/#uphpu tonedevf (n=tonedevf@post.tonedb.org) |
| 15:40.25 | SunSparc | Probably got tagged by a sniper. |
| 15:58.00 | Utah_Dave | wow, Snow Leopard is going to have ZFS!! |
| 15:58.59 | wps | Utah_Dave: link? |
| 16:00.13 | SunSparc | Really? |
| 16:00.31 | SunSparc | That is quite forward of Apple. |
| 16:02.06 | *** join/#uphpu SunSparc_ (n=sparky@c-76-27-80-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 16:02.17 | mindjuju | @wps - http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/snowleopard/ |
| 16:02.20 | mindjuju | at the bottom |
| 16:02.37 | mindjuju | For business-critical server deployments, Snow Leopard Server adds read and write support for the high-performance, 128-bit ZFS file system, which includes advanced features such as storage pooling, data redundancy, automatic error correction, dynamic volume expansion, and snapshots. |
| 16:02.38 | wps | ahâ¦Â new information |
| 16:02.44 | wps | that page had a lot less info last night |
| 16:03.44 | wps | oh â¦Â waitâ¦Â that's the server page |
| 16:03.51 | wps | not the normal os page |
| 16:13.02 | Utah_Dave | yeah, I'm not sure if ZFS is only available on the server or if it's an option on desktops as well |
| 16:14.37 | Utah_Dave | We just put up a job opening and HR posted it with the most vague, undescriptive and unhelpful job description with it. |
| 16:14.50 | Utah_Dave | https://statejobs.utah.gov/JobAnnouncement.jsp?rid=17447 |
| 16:15.23 | Utah_Dave | I think they copied and pasted it from somewhere |
| 16:15.33 | mindjuju | that's funny |
| 16:16.00 | mindjuju | so, if you get a job with UNG, do you have to be able to do like 100 push ups? |
| 16:16.08 | Utah_Dave | What does this mean? "Incumbents assigned to this job title perform entry level Information Technology related duties in either the ITS mainframe operations support areas or in agency IT sections." |
| 16:16.15 | mindjuju | do you have to be able to run from the computer to the barricks in 10 flat? |
| 16:16.41 | Utah_Dave | no, it's a civilian position. So no pushups, no getting sent to Iraq, no uniform. |
| 16:17.03 | Utah_Dave | But they do give you one hour a day on the clock to exercise if you want to do so |
| 16:17.21 | wps | that's a nice perk |
| 16:17.31 | mindjuju | that is cool |
| 16:18.05 | Utah_Dave | yeah, it is. We have access to a great basketball court, there's a decent gym, and there's a ton of trails to run or mountain bike |
| 16:20.37 | Utah_Dave | and sometimes Apache helicopters fly right over our rooftops!! |
| 16:21.54 | wps | anyone want to take a survey for a gift card? |
| 16:22.17 | dataw0lf | Utah_Dave: just watch out for an Apache crashing into your house. |
| 16:22.17 | mindjuju | wps - that's my kind of language |
| 16:22.28 | wps | send an email to her: Denise.Rolfe@mccann.com |
| 16:22.36 | wps | local agency |
| 16:22.45 | Utah_Dave | dataw0lf: yeah, no doubt |
| 16:22.52 | wps | or I can send her your email if you'd like |
| 16:22.56 | dataw0lf | those things drop like flies. |
| 16:23.05 | wps | what? apaches? |
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| 16:25.45 | dataw0lf | Yea. Apaches. |
| 16:36.45 | Utah_Dave | I don't think we've had any crash here in Utah that I'm aware of. I have 2 buddies who are apache pilots |
| 16:46.24 | tonedevf | have the uphpu activities been on hiatus as the website seems to indicate? no meeting or geek for may or june? |
| 16:47.55 | wps | no |
| 16:47.55 | wps | http://uphpu.org/events/ |
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| 16:49.58 | tonedevf | ah. note to the web master, though i can see the events portlet on the front page, it contains no links to the /events page |
| 16:50.27 | wps | huh? |
| 16:50.45 | wps | although you can see the what? |
| 16:50.58 | tonedevf | the "events" section |
| 16:51.15 | wps | there is a link to the events page in the navigation on the right |
| 16:51.21 | wps | under the "pages" header |
| 16:52.11 | tonedevf | i see that ... now |
| 16:52.11 | wps | col |
| 16:52.11 | wps | cool |
| 16:52.11 | tonedevf | wps, you must be the webmaster ; ) |
| 16:52.11 | wps | well, that title died with the .com boom, but yesâ¦Â I run the site |
| 16:52.29 | wps | :) |
| 16:52.58 | tonedevf | so i'm curious, what is the replacement title if 'webmaster' is dead? |
| 16:54.10 | wps | good question |
| 16:54.17 | beandog | marketing exec |
| 16:54.20 | beandog | code monkey |
| 16:54.22 | wps | webmaster to me is more of a maintenance thing |
| 16:54.27 | wps | more of a system administrator |
| 16:54.36 | beandog | yah |
| 16:54.38 | beandog | sysadmin |
| 16:54.41 | wps | an FTP guy |
| 16:54.43 | wps | :) |
| 16:54.53 | wps | I don't "manage" websites |
| 16:54.54 | wps | I build them |
| 16:55.05 | wps | I consider myself a web application developer/engineer |
| 16:56.08 | tonedevf | i see. well i meant no insult ; ) |
| 16:56.29 | wps | none taken |
| 16:56.32 | wps | welcome to UPHPU |
| 16:56.39 | beandog | we love to insult in here. |
| 16:56.50 | mindjuju | ~poo beandog |
| 16:56.51 | jbot | ACTION summons a troop of flying monkeys to fling their poo at beandog |
| 16:56.52 | beandog | you sons of a motherless goat |
| 16:57.03 | tonedevf | i suspect many of us started out as dreamweaver dolts |
| 16:57.06 | beandog | ~tunafart mindjuju |
| 16:57.06 | jbot | ACTION eats a week-old tuna sandwich with relish and walks over to mindjuju, leg raised, to let 'em rip. |
| 16:57.13 | beandog | tonedevf, now *that's* insulting |
| 16:57.16 | wps | webmaster just sounds like someone that writes markup with <font> and <blink> for Mozilla and FTPs it up to his geocities page |
| 16:57.17 | mindjuju | dreamweaver? |
| 16:57.25 | mindjuju | i heard beandog never left frontpage? |
| 16:57.31 | beandog | LOL |
| 16:58.11 | beandog | mindjuju, you are horrible |
| 16:58.22 | mindjuju | macnewbold still uses LOGO for web dev |
| 16:58.33 | beandog | hey now |
| 16:58.37 | beandog | dont be talking smack about LOGO |
| 16:58.48 | beandog | ~fernpee |
| 16:58.49 | jbot | ACTION whistles for BigDrink, the 180-lb Labrador Retriever with the 40-gallon bladder, to relieve himself on that fern over there in the corner... |
| 16:59.05 | mindjuju | yuck |
| 16:59.21 | beandog | man I remember they used to teach that when I was in 3rd grade. |
| 17:02.53 | beandog | heh |
| 17:02.55 | beandog | BigDrink |
| 17:03.01 | beandog | thats awesome. |
| 17:03.27 | mgeary | thank you, thank you |
| 17:06.13 | dataw0lf | beandog: where did you go to elementary school? |
| 17:06.22 | dataw0lf | Mine couldn't even keep an art or music program. |
| 17:07.33 | beandog | dataw0lf, uh |
| 17:07.38 | beandog | somewhere in Missourri |
| 17:07.46 | dataw0lf | Missouri* |
| 17:07.49 | dataw0lf | :p |
| 17:07.51 | beandog | whatever. |
| 17:07.56 | dataw0lf | MissouRA |
| 17:07.57 | beandog | I remember we had lots of cool computer stuff |
| 17:08.09 | dataw0lf | we had Oregon Trail and Number Munchers |
| 17:08.17 | beandog | I remember those |
| 17:08.18 | dataw0lf | and I rocked the hizzouse at both. |
| 17:09.16 | *** part/#uphpu mrkrow (n=Chad@166.70.178.126) |
| 17:10.45 | tonedevf | the hizzhowth? |
| 17:11.14 | tonedevf | was oregon trail a Sierra game? |
| 17:11.52 | jsmith-lunch | In fact, my son and I played it just the other day... (we died of starvation and cold in western Idado) |
| 17:11.54 | mindjuju | yeah |
| 17:12.06 | mindjuju | now, if you want a REAL game, TIM is the ticket |
| 17:12.14 | beandog | now I wanna fire up some bards tale |
| 17:12.37 | wps | and Beyond Dark Castle! |
| 17:12.48 | wps | but the best game of all time was Bruce Lee on Atari 800 |
| 17:12.58 | mgeary | no way. Wasteland on Apple II |
| 17:12.59 | mindjuju | here is info on TIM - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Incredible_Machine |
| 17:13.56 | wps | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpfv7_m7hyQ |
| 17:14.15 | mindjuju | oh yeah, i remember that game |
| 17:14.23 | wps | played it every day |
| 17:14.24 | mindjuju | i couldn't get past this aprt with some bulls running or something |
| 17:14.25 | dataw0lf | The best game of all time is Call of Duty 4. End of discussion. |
| 17:14.54 | dataw0lf | you better get CoD4Million |
| 17:15.18 | _psychic_ | haha |
| 17:15.34 | dataw0lf | I'm ranked, as of last night, in kills, 2427 out of over 4 million people. |
| 17:15.46 | dataw0lf | getting there |
| 17:15.54 | _psychic_ | my new favorite - skorpion, stopping power, steady aim, with three frags on killzone |
| 17:16.03 | _psychic_ | (or shipment) |
| 17:16.17 | dataw0lf | I like uzi + stopping power + steady aim + 3 frags |
| 17:16.23 | dataw0lf | I love the sound it makes |
| 17:16.33 | _psychic_ | does less damage though, right? |
| 17:16.48 | _psychic_ | (but probably reloads faster and has a longer clip) |
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| 17:17.06 | dataw0lf | yea, the clip on the skorpion is tiny. |
| 17:17.19 | dataw0lf | it's nice because of the low recoil though |
| 17:17.42 | _psychic_ | yeah and if you're accurate enough, it doesn't matter |
| 17:23.43 | *** join/#uphpu thebigdog (n=thebigdo@0006yE-Yn.dsl.xmission.com) |
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| 17:24.29 | beandog | heh |
| 17:24.41 | thebigdog | mindjuju, i dont gold |
| 17:24.45 | thebigdog | golf |
| 17:24.46 | thebigdog | i hate it |
| 17:24.53 | wps | he collects stamps |
| 17:30.27 | thebigdog | big stamps wps |
| 17:31.02 | beandog | ~golf-- |
| 17:31.29 | mindjuju | vw golf are pretty cool |
| 17:31.52 | beandog | your mom drives a golf |
| 17:32.13 | mindjuju | at least i have one, you have to buy one from kmart on a blue light special |
| 17:33.26 | dataw0lf | vw++ |
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| 17:40.34 | beandog | mindjuju, youre no fun |
| 17:40.57 | mindjuju | :) |
| 17:43.14 | mindjuju | @beandog - did you see that blendtek with chuck norris in the blender? - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdD54rG9oQA |
| 17:43.26 | beandog | no |
| 17:43.29 | beandog | sec |
| 17:50.24 | wps | anyone hungry? |
| 17:50.25 | wps | http://www.theonion.com/content/video/new_wearable_feedbags_let |
| 17:50.51 | Utah_Dave | mindjuju: that's hilarious |
| 17:51.18 | mindjuju | @utah_dave - love that one |
| 17:51.23 | mindjuju | @wps - that's awesome |
| 17:55.04 | SunSparc | ROFL!!!! |
| 17:57.17 | mindjuju | wow, he must have laughed so hard his computer turned off |
| 17:58.21 | SunSparc | Seriously. :) |
| 18:05.01 | tierra | 11:32 < scott> yet more awsome dpn` |
| 18:05.11 | tierra | dumb putty |
| 18:05.59 | *** join/#uphpu nei_rauni (n=nei@201.22.61.33.adsl.gvt.net.br) |
| 18:07.17 | tierra | how does the onion do it |
| 18:07.21 | tierra | heh |
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| 18:39.29 | SunSparc | http://icanhascheezburger.com/2008/06/10/funny-pictures-escape-plan-status-fail/ |
| 18:46.39 | timinator | too funny |
| 19:36.56 | *** join/#uphpu thebigdog (n=thebigdo@0006yE-Yn.dsl.xmission.com) |
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| 19:40.45 | dataw0lf | http://www.newscientist.com/channel/life/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html?feedId=online-news_rss20 |
| 19:40.48 | dataw0lf | uns uns uns uns |
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| 20:07.20 | *** join/#uphpu pelaofeliz (n=PelaoFel@67.108.236.230) |
| 20:07.55 | Utah_Dave | man, I rebooted my windows laptop and it started installing some update without asking my permission. |
| 20:08.10 | Utah_Dave | Then it sat there for about an hour |
| 20:08.38 | Utah_Dave | I ended up hard powering it off and then it came back up and finished installing |
| 20:08.44 | Utah_Dave | I don't know what the heck it installed |
| 20:08.49 | wps | vista |
| 20:08.54 | _psychic_ | pray it's linux |
| 20:08.58 | Utah_Dave | mindjuju: are you playing a prank on me |
| 20:09.25 | Utah_Dave | no, it's XP. I only use it for playing Command & Conquer |
| 20:09.48 | beandog | _psychic_, lol |
| 20:09.56 | _psychic_ | :) |
| 20:10.00 | beandog | thats why, whenever you run windows |
| 20:10.05 | beandog | you unplug / disable the network |
| 20:10.18 | _psychic_ | I think that auto update install thing is the most despicable, unacceptable feature of all time |
| 20:10.30 | _psychic_ | *especially* when it forces a restart attempt every 5 minutes |
| 20:10.38 | _psychic_ | that's abominably offensive to me |
| 20:10.40 | beandog | its especially evil if youre running a server |
| 20:10.43 | _psychic_ | It's *my* computer. |
| 20:10.47 | beandog | and your box reboots at 3 a.m. |
| 20:10.55 | beandog | and you get called up asking why everything is down. |
| 20:10.58 | Utah_Dave | I think I'm going to try installing C&C in Wine again. Last time I tried it, it didn't quite work |
| 20:11.12 | beandog | and you get to tell them "because youre too stupid to use a real OS, and I get to pay the price." |
| 20:11.20 | beandog | then you get fired |
| 20:11.26 | beandog | and live in PoeticIntensity's basement. |
| 20:11.27 | beandog | true story. |
| 20:11.52 | Utah_Dave | sorry, beandog. But at least you got to hang out with PoeticIntensity more! |
| 20:12.10 | dataw0lf | hey, you were the one who chose to take a job administering Windows servers, no? |
| 20:16.04 | _psychic_ | Sometimes the word choose has a fuzzy meaning. His other "choice" might have been to live in a dumpster. That only verifies dataw0lf's point about you making the wrong decision. |
| 20:18.01 | wps | there are a couple different ways to export a CSV directly from MySQL |
| 20:18.08 | wps | anyone have an opinion on the best approach? |
| 20:18.38 | thebigdog | test them out and see what you like |
| 20:18.43 | _psychic_ | how many rows? |
| 20:18.53 | wps | couple hundred |
| 20:18.59 | dataw0lf | INTO OUTFILE |
| 20:19.05 | _psychic_ | doesn't matter much - just use the first method you find :) |
| 20:19.10 | thebigdog | what are you using the output for? |
| 20:19.19 | beandog | dataw0lf, thats true |
| 20:19.20 | wps | to open in a spreadsheet |
| 20:19.34 | wps | into outfile is what I have used in the past |
| 20:19.37 | thebigdog | why not just hook your spreadsheet to your db |
| 20:20.00 | wps | firewall |
| 20:21.17 | beandog | thebigdog, evil. |
| 20:21.49 | thebigdog | beandog, no no...that rocks with openoffice |
| 20:22.14 | thebigdog | i love openoffice for that...create the query and then pull that in |
| 20:22.19 | beandog | thebigdog, ah okay, Access came to mind |
| 20:22.42 | thebigdog | no...i love hooking openoffice up to pgsql very cool stuff |
| 20:22.55 | thebigdog | you can do it with excel...but i hate ms office |
| 20:33.16 | *** join/#uphpu fungus (n=olsonl@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 20:33.16 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o fungus] by ChanServ |
| 20:47.33 | wps | 14:47 and my inbox is finally empty |
| 20:47.37 | wps | I can now start on today's work |
| 20:49.15 | jsmith | wps: That means you're ahead of me by a week |
| 20:49.20 | wps | :) |
| 20:53.55 | beandog | crap |
| 20:54.02 | beandog | how do you check which engine type a mysql table is |
| 20:56.42 | fungus | show table status; |
| 20:59.39 | beandog | ah, thanks fungus |
| 20:59.45 | beandog | now if I can only remember how to do fkeys with innodb |
| 21:01.15 | *** join/#uphpu jsmith (n=jsmith@72.21.36.138) |
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| 21:02.42 | thebigdog | man i hate working with business dates |
| 21:03.09 | _psychic_ | You can get into a mess by dating people you work with. |
| 21:03.12 | wps | you'd rather keep it plutonic? |
| 21:03.39 | wps | ^5 _psychic_ |
| 21:04.04 | jsmith | I once worked at the same company as my wife... we shared an office... does that count? |
| 21:04.28 | _psychic_ | Yes. |
| 21:04.48 | _psychic_ | And if by plutonic, you mean igneous, I have no idea what you're talking about. |
| 21:05.08 | jsmith | Sometimes, when it was late, and we were the only people in the office... |
| 21:05.11 | jsmith | ... we'd go home. |
| 21:05.21 | wps | ~rimshot jsmith |
| 21:05.31 | _psychic_ | And play cards? |
| 21:05.48 | jsmith | When my first son was born, we'd take him to the office with us... he'd hang out there in his play-pen |
| 21:06.23 | thebigdog | hehe....dates = calendar dates....hehe |
| 21:19.12 | beandog | I really, really, really, really, really hate how MySQLs error messages are both worthless and wrong. |
| 21:20.26 | jsmith | beandog: Amen, brother! |
| 21:20.30 | beandog | actually I think Ill actually take the initiative and file a bug. |
| 21:20.35 | jsmith | beandog: w00t! |
| 21:20.42 | jsmith | ~cheer beandog |
| 21:20.43 | jbot | ACTION cheers beandog on |
| 21:20.54 | jsmith | ~applaud beandog |
| 21:20.55 | jbot | ACTION pins beandog to the wall with steak knives, then gives beandog a hanging ovation |
| 21:20.55 | dataw0lf | "MySQL Ticket #58523: MYSQL SUCKS. FINIT." |
| 21:30.42 | *** part/#uphpu mrkrow1 (n=Chad@166.70.178.126) |
| 21:39.08 | *** join/#uphpu _psychic_ (n=_psychic@c-76-27-80-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:39.08 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v _psychic_] by ChanServ |
| 21:41.03 | *** part/#uphpu mindjuju (n=mindjuju@76.8.222.130) |
| 21:57.22 | *** part/#uphpu bwelker (n=roxanne@166.70.178.114) |
| 22:14.05 | _psychic_ | dataw0lf: can you use plain old python in Django templates? |
| 22:14.13 | dataw0lf | _psychic_: No. |
| 22:14.21 | _psychic_ | :/ |
| 22:14.31 | dataw0lf | Shame on you. |
| 22:14.40 | _psychic_ | On me? |
| 22:14.46 | _psychic_ | It's like Smarty all over again. |
| 22:14.46 | dataw0lf | Indeed. |
| 22:14.52 | mgeary | ~smarty++ |
| 22:15.13 | dataw0lf | separation of concerns. You can write a template tag or filter, but including raw code in a template is for the birds. |
| 22:15.20 | fungus | ~smarty-- |
| 22:15.33 | mgeary | dataw0lf ^5 agreed |
| 22:15.38 | dataw0lf | ^5 |
| 22:15.39 | _psychic_ | It's also for people who don't feel the need to learn another useless language |
| 22:15.51 | mgeary | oh jeeze, it takes like 3 1/2 minutes to learn smarty |
| 22:16.07 | _psychic_ | so why not invent SmartySmarty and learn that too? |
| 22:16.15 | dataw0lf | if you consider template semantics in Django on par with learning a language, you're already too far gone to help. |
| 22:16.18 | beandog | we need SmartyPants |
| 22:16.25 | mgeary | ~wps |
| 22:16.25 | jbot | i heard wps is Mr. Sexy Pants |
| 22:16.28 | mgeary | close! |
| 22:16.33 | dataw0lf | My designers picked it up easily enough, I'd assume you could do the same. |
| 22:16.33 | _psychic_ | dataw0lf: I don't. But it's something extra that's pointless. |
| 22:16.39 | beandog | smarty != sexy |
| 22:16.52 | mgeary | eeh. pants is pants |
| 22:17.11 | _psychic_ | It has nothing to do with difficulty, and everything to do with occam's developer razor |
| 22:17.26 | _psychic_ | Why not learn some psudo-SQL language too, then? |
| 22:17.34 | _psychic_ | Can't have devs screwing up a DBA's baby |
| 22:17.35 | dataw0lf | Right. As in keeping your templates simple and easy to understand. |
| 22:17.42 | mgeary | heh. well with Django, you shouldn't be writing much sql... |
| 22:17.57 | dataw0lf | _psychic_: kinda like... oh, I dunno. An ORM? |
| 22:18.09 | dataw0lf | If you're writing raw SQL all the time I feel for you too. |
| 22:18.15 | mgeary | zactly |
| 22:18.19 | _psychic_ | ugh |
| 22:18.32 | beandog | welcome to WWW Raw! |
| 22:18.52 | _psychic_ | So you're comparing ORM to SQL? |
| 22:18.52 | mgeary | another problem with raw code in templates is, where do you draw the line? Smarty (et al) helps enforce good, logical limits |
| 22:18.56 | dataw0lf | .... |
| 22:19.01 | dataw0lf | No, but it's a proxy layer to SQL. |
| 22:19.19 | dataw0lf | ORM is a way to abstract SQL and database operations. |
| 22:19.21 | _psychic_ | right - template languages are a layer on top of something that does the exact same thing |
| 22:19.37 | dataw0lf | Why do you even want to write raw Python? |
| 22:19.42 | dataw0lf | Do the operations in the controller. |
| 22:19.47 | dataw0lf | If you can't, pull it into a template tag. |
| 22:19.50 | dataw0lf | DRY. |
| 22:20.01 | dataw0lf | s/controller/view |
| 22:20.33 | dataw0lf | It may seem like the Right(tm) thing to do at the time. |
| 22:20.38 | dataw0lf | But it's not, I assure you. |
| 22:20.53 | dataw0lf | Oh, how I know this. |
| 22:21.00 | beandog | dataw0lf knows. |
| 22:21.26 | mgeary | i wish i had time to do that ^^ |
| 22:21.36 | mgeary | and money |
| 22:21.47 | beandog | I just wish I had a girlfriend. |
| 22:21.54 | beandog | mgeary and his crazy wishes. |
| 22:22.13 | dataw0lf | mgeary: We've got some legacy apps still on PHP. We managed to convince our publisher that we should pull them all into Rails, merb, Django, or Pylons. |
| 22:22.30 | mgeary | nice |
| 22:22.50 | dataw0lf | the other senior developer here is a Ruby guy, thus the merb and Rails. |
| 22:23.07 | _psychic_ | ok so if I want something really crazy like a loop |
| 22:23.07 | dataw0lf | (although I kinda like merb myself) |
| 22:23.22 | mgeary | _psychic_: no problem |
| 22:23.22 | _psychic_ | rather than just use Python to do that, I have to learn some template syntax that does the same thing |
| 22:23.25 | _psychic_ | thats my beef |
| 22:23.26 | mgeary | yep |
| 22:23.41 | _psychic_ | I think the "security" concerns are silly issue to bring up. |
| 22:23.48 | _psychic_ | If you can't trust your designers, fire them. |
| 22:23.50 | _psychic_ | Twice. |
| 22:23.56 | mgeary | it's not about trust |
| 22:23.59 | dataw0lf | um, well, a loop is basically Python code |
| 22:24.10 | mgeary | it's about keeping things where they belong |
| 22:24.11 | dataw0lf | {% for x in iterator %} |
| 22:24.22 | _psychic_ | dataw0lf: so is the syntax exactly the same as a python loop? |
| 22:24.37 | _psychic_ | always? |
| 22:25.00 | dataw0lf | Not always. |
| 22:25.05 | dataw0lf | But it's pretty similar. |
| 22:25.16 | _psychic_ | you don't view that as a problem? |
| 22:25.21 | dataw0lf | Python doesn't lend itself well to ridiculous code embedding that PHP does. |
| 22:25.27 | dataw0lf | Enforced whitespace and all that. |
| 22:25.33 | _psychic_ | hm |
| 22:25.35 | dataw0lf | I don't view it as a problem, no |
| 22:25.38 | _psychic_ | That's a good point |
| 22:25.46 | dataw0lf | It took me less than half an hour to become comfortable with the template language. |
| 22:25.53 | dataw0lf | I deal with DSLs all the time though |
| 22:25.55 | _psychic_ | Well why learn this extra type of loop when you've already learned the Python syntax? |
| 22:26.07 | dataw0lf | witness RSpec, pyspec, shoot, unit testing in general can be considered a DSL |
| 22:26.39 | dataw0lf | I dunno, I kinda like Django's template language *shrug* |
| 22:26.43 | _psychic_ | yeah but to wrap something so utterly basic as flow control, and give it syntax is retarded. |
| 22:26.45 | dataw0lf | template filters? So concise. |
| 22:26.55 | _psychic_ | *different syntax |
| 22:27.28 | _psychic_ | why not implement the Django For⢠inside of controllers then, too? |
| 22:27.44 | dataw0lf | templates, obviously, need some logic. |
| 22:27.54 | _psychic_ | obviously... |
| 22:28.45 | _psychic_ | ooh and why not do settings.py in DjangoML so you can learn that too |
| 22:28.47 | dataw0lf | Don't use Django. Keep using PHP. |
| 22:28.53 | mgeary | heh |
| 22:28.55 | dataw0lf | No sweat off my back. |
| 22:29.03 | beandog | I'm gonna quote you on that one |
| 22:29.04 | _psychic_ | Don't get me wrong, I like Python |
| 22:29.06 | beandog | or misquote |
| 22:29.16 | _psychic_ | I just hate template "languages" that are pointless |
| 22:29.31 | _psychic_ | regardless of platform |
| 22:30.09 | dataw0lf | Well I don't find them pointless at all, but I have a team of designers I keep a tight rein on. It keeps them happy to have a small, easy-to-understand DSL that is a subset of a true language. |
| 22:30.16 | dataw0lf | Should I fire them? Not really; they're great designers. |
| 22:30.19 | mgeary | one could argue that the very presence of template "languages" in so many frameworks is a good indicator that a lot of smart people saw the need for them |
| 22:30.44 | _psychic_ | dataw0lf: why not teach them a little python? |
| 22:30.56 | dataw0lf | we didn't hire them to learn Python. |
| 22:31.05 | mgeary | designers shouldn't, imo, even be doing template logic |
| 22:31.18 | _psychic_ | you hired them to implement presentational layer markup? |
| 22:31.23 | _psychic_ | including some presentational logic? |
| 22:31.26 | mgeary | that's done after the designers are done with the html |
| 22:31.46 | mgeary | but in such a way that if the designer needs to do a tweak, they can deal with it |
| 22:31.46 | _psychic_ | mgeary: everyone thought the world was flat for a while, too. |
| 22:31.53 | dataw0lf | _psychic_: most of them, coming from a Publicus background (newspaper CMS), are inherently used to it. |
| 22:32.23 | dataw0lf | But, this argument is pointless. Keep on embedding PHP in your pages. *shrug* |
| 22:32.29 | dataw0lf | I'm not going to try to convert you. |
| 22:32.35 | dataw0lf | Everyone eventually converts themselves. |
| 22:32.43 | dataw0lf | Or gets a job flipping burgers. |
| 22:32.46 | mgeary | _psychic_: an interesting thing to note is that almost every programming problem most of us will encounter in our lives was solved, very elegantly, back in the 60s |
| 22:33.04 | _psychic_ | dataw0lf: so you're going to give up, and leave me with a false dilemma to boot? ;) |
| 22:33.06 | mgeary | most of us spend our programming lives simply re-discovering what's already been established |
| 22:33.11 | _psychic_ | maybe so |
| 22:33.28 | _psychic_ | And the argument isn't pointless. You're adding a whole layer to your app that isn't needed. |
| 22:33.31 | _psychic_ | I think that's a bad decision. |
| 22:33.43 | _psychic_ | Steeper learning curve, extra parsing bloat |
| 22:33.50 | dataw0lf | I've been programming for a while now. I've come to conclusions from my experiences. I like the abstraction of concerns that Django provides. If you don't like it, don't use it. |
| 22:33.59 | dataw0lf | That's the best I can do for you. |
| 22:34.21 | _psychic_ | At least I got my question answered. :) |
| 22:34.51 | _psychic_ | And fwiw, you don't need a template language to abstract that "concern" |
| 22:35.36 | dataw0lf | Well, we could solve this with a code off. |
| 22:35.45 | dataw0lf | Come up with a problem you find that you need to embed PHP code in. |
| 22:35.50 | dataw0lf | I'll do mine in Django. |
| 22:35.56 | dataw0lf | You do yours in ... whatever. |
| 22:36.24 | dataw0lf | And we can have a vote on whose solution is : more elegant; more concise; faster; and was quickest to be finished. |
| 22:36.26 | _psychic_ | The problem isn't needing vanilla code - it's understanding why you need something else |
| 22:36.42 | _psychic_ | using the core language constructs should be all of those! |
| 22:36.47 | _psychic_ | It' |
| 22:37.06 | dataw0lf | I don't want my templates running through a Python interpreter. |
| 22:37.12 | dataw0lf | You can run your PHP templates through one all you want. |
| 22:37.16 | _psychic_ | why not? |
| 22:37.18 | dataw0lf | (an interpreter) |
| 22:37.25 | dataw0lf | I want complete control over the template compilation process |
| 22:37.33 | dataw0lf | When do you compile your templates? |
| 22:37.36 | _psychic_ | Python can't do that? |
| 22:37.36 | dataw0lf | You don't, right? |
| 22:37.46 | _psychic_ | On the fly unless they're cached. |
| 22:37.59 | dataw0lf | I can do that, but then I have to spawn a separate Python interpreter for each instance of "raw code" ? |
| 22:38.02 | dataw0lf | Don't be ridiculous. |
| 22:38.17 | dataw0lf | or *shudder* an eval? |
| 22:38.53 | _psychic_ | I don't understand how Python can't do something that can be done by something that was written in Python. |
| 22:38.56 | dataw0lf | I can do anything in a Django template you can do with raw code. And it looks prettier to boot. |
| 22:39.17 | dataw0lf | So your only real argument is against DSLs? |
| 22:39.25 | dataw0lf | Never used DSLs before? |
| 22:39.32 | dataw0lf | I'd suggest shucking PHP immediately before your brain rots. |
| 22:39.33 | _psychic_ | I can do anything in settings.py in my custom ASCII art-embellished psychicML. And it looks waaaaay prettier to boot. |
| 22:40.04 | dataw0lf | Propose how you'd do this in (raw) Python: |
| 22:40.12 | dataw0lf | {% for x in objects %} |
| 22:40.23 | dataw0lf | {{ x.title|capitalize }} |
| 22:40.27 | dataw0lf | {% endfor %} |
| 22:40.43 | dataw0lf | I'll do it for you then. |
| 22:40.52 | dataw0lf | for x in objects: |
| 22:41.12 | dataw0lf | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:41.25 | SunSparc | dataw0lf: It seems like _psychic_ is trying to learn and understand from you. Conversely, it seems like you feel attacked and are being defensive and argumentative. Just an observation. |
| 22:42.00 | _psychic_ | meh that's pretty much the mode of conversation between us all the time |
| 22:42.03 | _psychic_ | I don't mind the tone |
| 22:42.09 | dataw0lf | Python is not meant to be embedded in HTML. It's a ridiculous notion forwarded by someone who has had his brain fried by the crap the PHP team has pushed upon you by circumstance or, worse, choice. |
| 22:42.36 | beandog | Hmm |
| 22:42.42 | dataw0lf | So, yea, a bit defensive. I don't want your garbage intruding onto my beautiful, and programmatically superior, solutions |
| 22:42.42 | _psychic_ | Why not embed logic in HTML? |
| 22:42.44 | beandog | I never would have considered using pythong to serve up web pages. |
| 22:42.48 | beandog | python |
| 22:43.01 | beandog | I sure hope that wasnt a freudian slip |
| 22:43.03 | _psychic_ | Python is pretty cool that's why |
| 22:43.26 | dataw0lf | embedding logic in a HTML template isn't the problem. It's embedding a _language_ into a template that's the problem. |
| 22:43.45 | _psychic_ | ? |
| 22:43.48 | _psychic_ | :) |
| 22:43.50 | dataw0lf | Deriving a subset of that language via the means of a DSL is the RIGHT solution. |
| 22:43.57 | _psychic_ | why |
| 22:44.01 | _psychic_ | that's what I don't understand |
| 22:44.03 | _psychic_ | fundamentally |
| 22:44.08 | _psychic_ | I see your point about whitespace |
| 22:44.13 | _psychic_ | but not otherwise |
| 22:44.33 | dataw0lf | http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/leastPower.html |
| 22:44.44 | _psychic_ | especially when the DSL is a crippled, renamed, differently syntaxed version of what the language can already do |
| 22:44.54 | dataw0lf | Read. |
| 22:45.14 | dataw0lf | this is basic CS. |
| 22:45.37 | _psychic_ | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_Razor |
| 22:45.38 | _psychic_ | Read. |
| 22:45.43 | _psychic_ | That's basic science. |
| 22:46.08 | _psychic_ | The solution should be as simple as possible. |
| 22:46.30 | _psychic_ | And would you say PHP is less powerful than Python? |
| 22:46.46 | SunSparc | hehe |
| 22:47.40 | _psychic_ | I think that article is a bit different that what I'm talking about anyways |
| 22:47.47 | _psychic_ | it all *ends up* as HTML |
| 22:47.48 | dataw0lf | ... |
| 22:47.56 | _psychic_ | I'm talking about how you get there |
| 22:48.36 | dataw0lf | sorry, had to merge changes from a developer to my master branch |
| 22:48.54 | _psychic_ | I'll have to think about it |
| 22:51.23 | dataw0lf | Do you at least understand why to keep presentation logic separate from application logic? Or are you just hung up on the fact that template languages generally tend to be DSL subsets |
| 22:53.06 | dataw0lf | I just think you gain a lot of things with Genshi as opposed to raw Python, that'd be less intuitive (especially to designers) |
| 22:53.38 | _psychic_ | Well I think there's a lot of benefit to extended view layer stuff - maybe a tag or even a class that helps you get markup out faster or more cleanly |
| 22:53.52 | _psychic_ | but for simple stuff (the for loop aforementioned), I don't see the point |
| 22:54.11 | dataw0lf | the for loop _is_ Python, basically |
| 22:54.23 | _psychic_ | it is, but it isn't - and that's the problem |
| 22:54.26 | *** join/#uphpu jgiboney (n=jgiboney@71-36-73-138.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 22:54.33 | dataw0lf | just slightly altered to make it more adaptable and constructive to embedding in HTML |
| 22:54.49 | _psychic_ | if my python thinking brain throws in some syntax that the template doesn't understand, or is different, I have to go look it up for no good reason |
| 22:55.10 | jgiboney | how can I include the results of a cgi page into my php page? |
| 22:55.28 | _psychic_ | jgiboney: curl ? |
| 22:55.29 | dataw0lf | Like I said - I haven't run into any problems with writing template code. |
| 22:55.37 | dataw0lf | After the first 30 minutes of using. |
| 22:55.43 | _psychic_ | this is a philosophical question |
| 22:55.45 | dataw0lf | Nothing that is inherent to the DSL, at any rate. |
| 22:55.47 | _psychic_ | not a pragmatic question |
| 22:56.11 | _psychic_ | It'd be just as easy to write up settings.py in YAML or INI |
| 22:57.04 | dataw0lf | Not really, since once you start building larger applications in Django, you'll start implementing application logic that should and does reside in settings.py |
| 22:57.29 | dataw0lf | don't think of settings.py as a flat configuration file - it's much more than that. |
| 22:57.32 | _psychic_ | okay but why not create a template language just for settings files, then? |
| 22:57.34 | _psychic_ | you see my pont? |
| 22:57.36 | _psychic_ | *point? |
| 22:57.56 | _psychic_ | I feel like that when I sit down to write a Django template. |
| 22:58.13 | dataw0lf | Not really. I don't see your point at all. |
| 22:58.42 | _psychic_ | You would if you had to write settings.py in some pseudo settings language. |
| 22:58.56 | dataw0lf | Well, that completely shirks all of my other arguments. |
| 22:59.03 | dataw0lf | First off, you're not going to have multiple, various settings.py files. |
| 22:59.12 | dataw0lf | Second off, no designer is going to be touching my settings.py file. |
| 22:59.22 | dataw0lf | Third, my settings.py file isn't the end result of an MVC architecture. |
| 23:00.10 | _psychic_ | 1. why does that matter? |
| 23:00.26 | _psychic_ | 2. Why can't designers learn simple python |
| 23:00.31 | _psychic_ | 3. why does that matter? |
| 23:00.51 | _psychic_ | I'm done for the day |
| 23:01.12 | _psychic_ | I don't mean to harass you, just trying to understand the decision to make sure I'm not missing something |
| 23:03.33 | dataw0lf | 1A: The template language is aimed at a specific audience, who'll use it for many files, in a large organization. Obviously the decision to create a DSL matters on how often it's going to be used and how many times. |
| 23:04.06 | dataw0lf | 2A: I don't have the time to teach my designers Python, nor answer all their questions. Django provides a simple, easy to understand reference for "template authors" |
| 23:04.29 | _psychic_ | hm |
| 23:04.53 | *** part/#uphpu mgeary (n=mgeary@166.70.44.49) |
| 23:04.54 | _psychic_ | though I should say a similar guide could be written for simple presentational python constructs |
| 23:05.11 | dataw0lf | 3A: Separation of concerns, again. Embedding a full language into a template leads to laziness, and all other sorts of concerns. How do I manage the Python PATH? Import of modules? Operations? |
| 23:06.50 | dataw0lf | Not to mention, the "template library" you'd eventually build would start to look like a Python DSL subset anyways. |
| 23:07.09 | dataw0lf | TemplateLibrary.include_file('other.html') |
| 23:07.19 | dataw0lf | etc etc |
| 23:07.48 | _psychic_ | k |
| 23:08.06 | _psychic_ | well I have some people to shoot at |
| 23:08.10 | dataw0lf | I think as you start learning more Python, you'll start to gain a bit more understanding. |
| 23:08.15 | _psychic_ | so I'll save my philosophical rants for later |
| 23:08.17 | dataw0lf | Good luck. |
| 23:08.19 | _psychic_ | thanks |
| 23:08.32 | dataw0lf | don't let the noob tubers get ya down |
| 23:08.47 | _psychic_ | lol |
| 23:09.12 | _psychic_ | l8 |
| 23:09.12 | _psychic_ | r |
| 23:11.06 | dataw0lf | Funniest. Code. Ever: http://pastie.textmate.org/private/3i6v3qmijj7nhata5espw |
| 23:11.16 | dataw0lf | my fellow senior engineer found that in a commit by one of his jr. developers. |
| 23:15.16 | beandog | heh |
| 23:15.22 | beandog | doom doom doom doom |
| 23:20.44 | timinator | big badda boom |
| 23:21.00 | timinator | LOL |
| 23:21.30 | timinator | gotta roll ladies, ...late |
| 23:33.13 | jgiboney | How do I get all of the post queries into a variable? |
| 23:33.37 | jgiboney | or better yet send them to another page |
| 23:40.23 | dataw0lf | POST parameters? |
| 23:44.28 | jgiboney | ya |
| 23:45.02 | dataw0lf | assign from $_POST |
| 23:45.34 | dataw0lf | send them to another page via GET or session assignment. |
| 23:58.19 | jgiboney | i am trying to use curl to pull another page into my php page, would it be correct to do this: $url = "http://www.icimedia.com/cgi-bin/cart.cgi?"; |
| 23:58.19 | jgiboney | i meant this; curl_setopt($ch, CURLOPT_POST, $_POST); |
| 23:58.19 | dataw0lf | I... think so, but I haven't used curl in years. |