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| 15:57.36 | mindjuju | greets all |
| 16:07.43 | DexterTheDragon | sup mindjuju |
| 16:08.00 | mindjuju | not much, you? |
| 16:08.43 | DexterTheDragon | just workin |
| 16:10.15 | DexterTheDragon | mindjuju: You didn't come to the Ubuntu/Fedora release party |
| 16:10.33 | mindjuju | on Saturday? man, i wish i could have |
| 16:10.41 | DexterTheDragon | yeah |
| 16:10.42 | mindjuju | now that i'm running an ubuntu server |
| 16:11.00 | mindjuju | actually, took Friday off and packed and moved until Sunday @ 7p |
| 16:11.14 | mindjuju | 14 hr days, every day |
| 16:12.09 | mindjuju | do ya'll have any left over ubuntu stickers? |
| 16:12.31 | DexterTheDragon | I'm sure herlo or someone might |
| 16:13.03 | mindjuju | i need to find a way to try out WINE |
| 16:13.28 | DexterTheDragon | I have Warcraft III running in wine |
| 16:13.35 | mindjuju | i'm thinking of dropping ubuntu on my laptop, but need something to run my VPN client |
| 16:13.54 | DexterTheDragon | linux has vpn clients.... |
| 16:13.59 | mindjuju | don't think sonicwall makes it for linux, but have only searched for a few minutes |
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| 16:15.36 | DexterTheDragon | does sonicwall just use vpn or does it have its own program? |
| 16:15.44 | mindjuju | its own |
| 16:16.59 | fungus | mindjuju: Does the sonicwall "require" it's own client, or just suggest it? |
| 16:18.04 | mindjuju | i didn't think to try another vpn client |
| 16:18.11 | mindjuju | thought it was proprietary ? |
| 16:18.30 | fungus | I have seen some VPN vendors that use their own client to start standard IPsec VPN tunnels |
| 16:18.38 | mindjuju | k, i'm pulling out the manual to read up on it |
| 16:18.43 | mindjuju | :) |
| 16:18.48 | fungus | Their client is just to make it a bit easier |
| 16:19.38 | DexterTheDragon | and doesn't it have a web insterface? |
| 16:20.06 | mindjuju | does have web interface to administer |
| 16:20.17 | mindjuju | but i do some work as a member of the network behind the firewall |
| 16:23.47 | fungus | mindjuju: This might work. A bit complicated though. |
| 16:23.49 | fungus | http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=5&url=ftp%3A%2F%2Fftp.sonicwall.com%2Fpub%2Finfo%2Fvpn%2FSonicWALL_IKEVPNTunnel_FreeSWAN.pdf&ei=NTQfSNL8Iob6pgSij_HrDA&usg=AFQjCNE-AZFcEn9KB3abwvZ6Wl96CCe4eQ&sig2=dCPdoMqjV8C_sU7SYt1QwQ |
| 16:23.52 | fungus | erg |
| 16:24.53 | fungus | try this one. ftp://ftp.sonicwall.com/pub/info/vpn/SonicWALL_IKEVPNTunnel_FreeSWAN.pdf |
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| 16:27.37 | fungus | Or this forum thread might help too |
| 16:27.38 | fungus | http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=289770 |
| 16:27.46 | fungus | Sounds like it is definitely possible. |
| 16:30.06 | mindjuju | hmmm.... maybe i should try this? |
| 16:30.36 | mindjuju | was thinking of reinstall winXP as the laptop is foob'd and not running as well as it can |
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| 17:00.05 | beandog | can someone confirm a bug in php for me |
| 17:01.23 | mgeary | ? |
| 17:01.41 | beandog | $ php -r "var_dump(empty('foo'));" |
| 17:01.41 | beandog | Parse error: syntax error, unexpected T_CONSTANT_ENCAPSED_STRING, expecting T_STRING or T_VARIABLE or '$' in Command line code on line 1 |
| 17:01.52 | beandog | empty is broken. |
| 17:02.23 | beandog | I'm on 5.2.6rc4, gonna test 5.2.5 and 5.2.6 in a second here. |
| 17:03.00 | mgeary | well |
| 17:03.08 | mgeary | empty takes a variable as a parameter |
| 17:03.09 | mgeary | not a string |
| 17:03.14 | mgeary | $empty($foo); |
| 17:03.16 | mgeary | doesn't it> |
| 17:03.17 | mgeary | ? |
| 17:03.41 | beandog | it doesnt need a variable. |
| 17:04.04 | mgeary | why are you passing a string? |
| 17:04.09 | beandog | I dont think it does. |
| 17:04.20 | josephscott | beandog: go read http://us3.php.net/empty |
| 17:04.21 | mgeary | if you have a string with a varname, do this: |
| 17:04.24 | mgeary | empty($$foo); |
| 17:04.34 | josephscott | where it says: |
| 17:04.35 | mgeary | you shouldn't have to pass a string literal |
| 17:04.35 | josephscott | Note: empty() only checks variables as anything else will result in a parse error. In other words, the following will not work: empty(trim($name)). |
| 17:04.52 | beandog | okay right, well either way, its not working with variables. |
| 17:05.07 | mgeary | it is for me |
| 17:05.13 | beandog | mgeary, what version |
| 17:05.22 | mgeary | 5.2.5 |
| 17:05.32 | josephscott | empty works fine with variables, it didn't wordpress wouldn't work at all :-) |
| 17:05.45 | beandog | hold on a second |
| 17:06.06 | josephscott | s/it/if it/ |
| 17:06.17 | mgeary | haha |
| 17:06.21 | mgeary | yo, thebigdog |
| 17:06.24 | josephscott | jbot you aren't helping |
| 17:06.25 | mgeary | kk |
| 17:06.32 | thebigdog | mgeary, ? |
| 17:06.35 | mgeary | kk |
| 17:06.44 | mgeary | ~kk |
| 17:06.44 | jbot | it has been said that kk is mgeary's favorite saying |
| 17:06.47 | beandog | http://rafb.net/p/oenARu21.html |
| 17:06.49 | beandog | mgeary, try that |
| 17:06.58 | beandog | that should return false. |
| 17:07.01 | mgeary | no |
| 17:07.09 | mgeary | because you're not giving it a variable |
| 17:07.14 | mgeary | you're giving it a boolean |
| 17:07.21 | mgeary | ah |
| 17:07.25 | mgeary | well, not a boolean |
| 17:07.30 | beandog | a string. |
| 17:07.35 | mgeary | but also not a variable. You're giving it a string literal |
| 17:07.41 | beandog | gah, they changed this. |
| 17:07.47 | beandog | wth. |
| 17:07.51 | mgeary | heh |
| 17:08.07 | josephscott | PHP Fatal error: Can't use function return value in write context in /usr/home/joseph/web/var.php on line 5 |
| 17:08.28 | josephscott | you are still giving var_dump a string |
| 17:08.37 | beandog | so what good is empty if it will only take a var |
| 17:08.44 | beandog | Why is that the only function that acts that way |
| 17:08.49 | beandog | ah, geez. |
| 17:08.50 | josephscott | the return value of trim() is a string, so you are back where you started |
| 17:08.52 | beandog | lame. |
| 17:09.15 | beandog | well the function says it accepts mixed, which means .... *strings* |
| 17:09.27 | josephscott | just change it to: var_dump(empty($str)); |
| 17:09.41 | beandog | but I don't want that |
| 17:09.44 | josephscott | mixed variables |
| 17:09.46 | beandog | I want to check if a trimmed var is empty |
| 17:09.50 | beandog | So now I have to do two steps. |
| 17:09.55 | mgeary | why not just use ! ? |
| 17:10.01 | beandog | $str = trim($str); |
| 17:10.02 | mgeary | if (! trim($somevar)) |
| 17:10.17 | josephscott | if( trim($var) === '' ) |
| 17:10.49 | beandog | Okay |
| 17:10.50 | josephscott | what if $somevar only contained a zero? |
| 17:10.52 | beandog | Well, that's still *lame* |
| 17:10.57 | beandog | Since when do they only accept variables. |
| 17:11.23 | mgeary | josephscott: good point, when returning a string |
| 17:12.14 | beandog | Are there any other functions that behave the same way? |
| 17:12.17 | beandog | Because that is really asinine. |
| 17:12.25 | josephscott | beandog: you could also do if( emtpy( trim($var) ) ) |
| 17:12.36 | beandog | josephscott, no I cant |
| 17:12.45 | beandog | thats waht Im trying to do. |
| 17:13.01 | beandog | Note: empty() only checks variables as anything else will result in a parse error. In other words, the following will not work: empty(trim($name)). |
| 17:13.05 | josephscott | oops, I just feel into the same trap :-) |
| 17:13.14 | beandog | trim($var) will return a string, which is now not a variable. |
| 17:13.37 | josephscott | so yeah, don't do that and move on, isn't the end of the world |
| 17:13.37 | beandog | does anyone else consider this dumb, or is it just me? I dont know of *any* other functions that do such strict type checking. |
| 17:13.52 | beandog | Well I'm bothered because it's not the MO |
| 17:13.56 | josephscott | beandog: there are lots of php functions that do type checking |
| 17:14.10 | beandog | Okay |
| 17:14.11 | beandog | Well |
| 17:14.19 | beandog | I can't think of a good reason why empty would need a variable. |
| 17:14.30 | beandog | especially if you just want to pass in a string. |
| 17:14.40 | beandog | it just means I can't stack functions. |
| 17:15.06 | josephscott | in this case, that's true |
| 17:15.22 | beandog | Right, in this case. |
| 17:15.31 | beandog | now I'm sure that's a recent change, because I remember this working before. |
| 17:15.32 | josephscott | you could also use strlen |
| 17:17.44 | beandog | var_dump(empty($str = trim($str))); |
| 17:17.46 | beandog | that doesnt work either. |
| 17:17.48 | beandog | that is lame. |
| 17:18.21 | beandog | that is so lame. |
| 17:18.26 | josephscott | I don't think it's worth getting that worked up over |
| 17:18.53 | beandog | it is when its gonna break my code. |
| 17:19.04 | beandog | and I *swear* its a recent change. |
| 17:19.11 | josephscott | there are plenty of other flaws in PHP that are much more irritating :-) |
| 17:19.27 | josephscott | your code relies on a var_dump? |
| 17:19.31 | beandog | no |
| 17:19.41 | beandog | I rely on running two functions at once. |
| 17:19.50 | beandog | empty(trim($str)); |
| 17:20.52 | josephscott | and you are using that in a conditional some where right? |
| 17:20.59 | josephscott | so just change the conditional |
| 17:21.10 | beandog | well I do like the suggestion of strlen |
| 17:21.18 | beandog | I guess Ill just use that. |
| 17:24.51 | beandog | it's still stupid, though. |
| 17:25.07 | dataw0lf | Morning. |
| 17:26.34 | dataw0lf | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:26.34 | dataw0lf | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:26.34 | dataw0lf | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:26.40 | dataw0lf | ack |
| 17:26.59 | dataw0lf | http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,354149,00.html |
| 17:29.25 | josephscott | ouch, that had to of hurt |
| 17:43.09 | mgeary | pretty decent |
| 17:43.42 | brasto | Shooter's a new tv series, right? |
| 17:43.57 | mgeary | no. movie with Mark Wahlburg |
| 17:44.04 | brasto | ah |
| 17:44.25 | brasto | I watched Dexter, and decided not to watch it anymore. |
| 17:44.56 | beandog | heh |
| 17:45.01 | beandog | that show looks a little too psych for me |
| 17:45.08 | beandog | psycho |
| 17:45.18 | beandog | I did watch Karate Kid last night, what a great flick |
| 17:45.47 | mgeary | Mr. Miagi++ |
| 17:46.09 | mgeary | Mr. Miyagi++ |
| 17:46.33 | mgeary | ~MrMiyagi |
| 17:46.49 | beandog | SunSparc, oh man I cant stand that one chick |
| 17:47.12 | beandog | whats her name |
| 17:47.13 | mgeary | jbot, MrMiyagi could kick Chuck Norris' tabasco-stained butt |
| 17:47.16 | beandog | meg ryan? |
| 17:47.22 | beandog | ~chuckfact |
| 17:47.22 | jbot | There is no chin under Chuck Norris Beard. There is only another fist |
| 17:47.30 | beandog | ah yah |
| 17:47.33 | brasto | one favorite line from Karate Kid: "What belt do you have?" "Canvas. Help hold up pants". |
| 17:47.44 | SunSparc | Hehe, I like Meg Ryan |
| 17:47.48 | mgeary | jbot, MrMiyagi is a guy who could kick Chuck Norris' tabasco-stained butt |
| 17:47.49 | jbot | okay, mgeary |
| 17:47.56 | mgeary | ~MrMiyagi |
| 17:47.57 | jbot | rumour has it, mrmiyagi is a guy who could kick Chuck Norris' tabasco-stained butt |
| 17:48.06 | mgeary | ah well |
| 17:48.24 | mgeary | jbot, you should support spaces in your factoid names |
| 17:49.32 | brasto | mgeary, jbot does, provided there isn't a shorter factoid with the first word. |
| 17:49.38 | mgeary | well then |
| 17:49.52 | mgeary | jbot, Mr. Miyagi is a guy who could kick Chuck Norris' tabasco-stained butt |
| 17:49.53 | jbot | mgeary: okay |
| 17:49.57 | mgeary | ~Mr. Miyagi |
| 17:49.57 | jbot | [mr. miyagi] a guy who could kick Chuck Norris' tabasco-stained butt |
| 17:50.03 | brasto | and that the multi-word factoid doesn't have 'is'... |
| 17:50.04 | mgeary | well then |
| 18:09.31 | dataw0lf | mmmm Dexter |
| 18:11.59 | dataw0lf | so who wants to invite le dataw0lf to what.c |
| 18:12.01 | dataw0lf | what.cd* |
| 18:16.27 | jnbek | and the jnbek :) |
| 18:21.12 | mindjuju | psh |
| 18:21.38 | mindjuju | MrMiyagi wouldn't stand chance v Chuck Norris |
| 18:22.10 | mindjuju | Chuck fought Bruce Lee in Return of the Dragon (albeit lost) the fact that he had the skillz to be there in the first place though |
| 18:22.53 | mindjuju | and let's not forget, David Caridine said Chuck "kicks too hard" during filming and got mad a Chuck |
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| 18:30.58 | mgeary | pfft |
| 18:40.23 | mindjuju | psh! |
| 18:40.37 | mindjuju | :) |
| 18:41.59 | mindjuju | for those of you looking to update your tape collection to CD, here it is at BB and on the cheap - http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?type=category&cmp=&id=pcmcat149100050009&ref=64&loc=35 |
| 18:42.16 | mindjuju | don't typically buy from BB, but i'll make an exception for this |
| 18:42.39 | mindjuju | sorry thebigdog, no GWAR that i saw |
| 18:56.46 | mgeary | huh |
| 18:57.15 | mgeary | they've got KISS and Sammy Hagar in the "Pop" section, and ABC and General Public in the "Rock" section. Whatever. |
| 18:57.27 | mindjuju | now that's funny |
| 19:11.21 | thebigdog | mgeary, ty for the link that is great |
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| 19:52.36 | mindjuju | it's times like this ( http://www.mylittleunderground.net/products/commands/index.htm ) that make we wonder about what these MAC commands are |
| 19:58.31 | _psychic_ | An â a day keeps the doctor away |
| 19:59.11 | mindjuju | symbol that came up for me is a domino |
| 19:59.27 | mindjuju | but i guess if you throw a domino at a doctor real hard, it would keep him away |
| 19:59.30 | _psychic_ | it's open to interpretation, apparently. |
| 19:59.36 | _psychic_ | exactly. |
| 20:05.03 | mindjuju | anybody know / have / want to share a contractor's contract? |
| 20:05.32 | mgeary | that's pretty vague |
| 20:06.20 | mindjuju | contract for doing work on an existing website |
| 20:12.33 | mgeary | well, what you'd want to regulate would probably be fairly particular to your circumstances. I do 80% of my contracting work without any written contract at all |
| 20:21.04 | mindjuju | sorry, stepped away for a moment, mgeary |
| 20:21.11 | mindjuju | so, has that ever gone bad on you? |
| 20:21.27 | mindjuju | not that a contract is a guarantee |
| 20:21.48 | mgeary | well |
| 20:22.00 | mgeary | if there's no contract, then the contractor has, by far, the upper hand |
| 20:22.32 | mindjuju | curious, never saw it that way. if you have a moment, can you explain why that might be? |
| 20:22.33 | mgeary | however, at Treeline we also sometimes contract out work, and we also rarely use contracts for that. |
| 20:22.42 | mgeary | here's a scenario, mindjuju: |
| 20:22.57 | mgeary | you come to me and say, "hey, mgeary, build me something awesome. I'll give you $10" |
| 20:23.01 | mgeary | i say, "sure". and get to work |
| 20:23.17 | mgeary | let's say i even manage to get the $10 up-front |
| 20:23.57 | mgeary | now, things go bad. What are you going to do? Where does it say what i'll give you? Furthermore, even if i build something cool, where does it say that you own, or have any right at all, to what i did? |
| 20:24.21 | mgeary | for all the legal system is concerned, you gave me $10 because i'm handsome |
| 20:24.45 | mgeary | now, getting all the $$ up-front isn't realistic |
| 20:24.56 | mgeary | let's say, we agree you don't pay me ANYthing until it's over |
| 20:25.29 | mgeary | so, i start to build something awesome, and then i decide you're a crappy client. You haven't paid me anything, so i can walk away at any time |
| 20:25.44 | mgeary | finally-- |
| 20:26.03 | _psychic_ | what if you've sunk hours into it and they don't pay you for your time |
| 20:26.33 | mgeary | let's say that i build something great and you love it. you pay me, and then, later, you decide to sell the IP to someone else |
| 20:26.56 | mgeary | i can produce a pretty compelling case that says that *I* own that IP, not you. And without a document to the contrary.... |
| 20:27.30 | mgeary | _psychic_: to answer that, i'd have to know if you've already delivered it or not |
| 20:27.31 | mindjuju | very good arguments mgeary |
| 20:27.46 | _psychic_ | mgeary: does it matter? |
| 20:27.54 | mgeary | if you haven't delivered it, then they're getting what they paid for, and yes, you're out your time, but that's less painful than being out money |
| 20:28.13 | mgeary | if you HAVE delivered it, and they don't pay you, if you wanted to, you could sue them for copyright infringement, since you own that work |
| 20:28.36 | _psychic_ | but if you haven't, you have no avenue to get paid |
| 20:29.02 | mgeary | right. if you built it, but don't deliver it, and don't get paid, that's the wost-case scenairo for the contractor |
| 20:29.03 | mgeary | however |
| 20:29.21 | mgeary | there are many times when i'd rather walk away from a project than deal with a troublesome client |
| 20:29.32 | _psychic_ | maybe you work on smaller projects then |
| 20:29.44 | mgeary | that's one reason why i often don't take payment until it's all over. I can walk away and they have no grievance |
| 20:29.45 | _psychic_ | It'd suck to work weeks or months and have to way to get paid |
| 20:30.06 | mgeary | i'm doing a > $25k project right now independently |
| 20:30.07 | _psychic_ | *no way to get paid |
| 20:30.21 | mgeary | however, i get paid at various milestones on that |
| 20:30.22 | _psychic_ | mgeary: with someone you know well or have worked with before? |
| 20:30.48 | mgeary | correct. but even so, if milestones are defined... |
| 20:31.16 | _psychic_ | I rely on a contract because I've been burned before |
| 20:31.24 | mgeary | on a big project, i'll usually do something like 25% down, 25% at alpha 25 at beta, and 25 on complete. If it's not that big, i'll do 25 down, 25 at beta, and 50 at complete |
| 20:31.38 | _psychic_ | so what if you're done and I'm not "satisfied" |
| 20:31.48 | mgeary | so did they take possession? |
| 20:31.52 | mgeary | or did they just walk away |
| 20:31.54 | _psychic_ | does it matter? |
| 20:31.58 | mgeary | sure |
| 20:32.04 | mgeary | if they took possession, then they stole it from you |
| 20:32.06 | _psychic_ | if you haven't, then you just lose your time |
| 20:32.52 | _psychic_ | that's not an acceptable risk imho |
| 20:33.56 | _psychic_ | there's lots of grief a simple contract can save you |
| 20:34.12 | _psychic_ | if it scares someone away, you're probably well-served to have that happen |
| 20:34.25 | _psychic_ | what's the downside to having someone sign a contract |
| 20:34.35 | mgeary | back up a sec |
| 20:34.48 | mgeary | i'm not saying there shouldn't be a scope document |
| 20:34.51 | mgeary | oh sure |
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| 20:34.58 | mgeary | i'm not saying there shouldn't be a scope document |
| 20:35.12 | mgeary | sounds to me like you had a scope disagreement |
| 20:35.19 | mgeary | not a terms disagreement |
| 20:35.46 | mgeary | if there are complex requirements, they should definitely be captured in writing |
| 20:35.50 | _psychic_ | scope is part of the terms, right? |
| 20:37.28 | _psychic_ | scope schedule and budget are intertwined - you'd need to specify all of them in a contract |
| 20:37.41 | mgeary | sec |
| 20:39.32 | _psychic_ | I think there's also lots of ways you can really cover yourself too |
| 20:39.49 | thebigdog | wps you around? |
| 20:41.14 | _psychic_ | we have a master services agreement we ask people to sign |
| 20:41.19 | _psychic_ | it's helped a lot |
| 20:41.32 | _psychic_ | to me more than legal enforcement it's just a way to disclose responsibilities and stuff |
| 20:41.44 | mgeary | _psychic_: you're talking about MR now, not your own contract work, yes? |
| 20:41.50 | _psychic_ | both |
| 20:41.57 | _psychic_ | but the MSA is mediaRAIN's |
| 20:42.03 | _psychic_ | I have my own contract for personal stuff I do |
| 20:42.05 | mgeary | Treeline always uses contracts with clients |
| 20:42.10 | _psychic_ | I've added to it over the yearse |
| 20:42.30 | mgeary | but going back to my point-- if you're the contractor and there's no contract, you hold all the cards |
| 20:42.36 | _psychic_ | I don't think you do |
| 20:42.47 | _psychic_ | the main problem being when you don't get paid for your time |
| 20:42.49 | mgeary | you just can't necessarily get the money, but that's a much safer spot to be in than if a lawsuit arises |
| 20:42.53 | mgeary | correct |
| 20:43.03 | mgeary | but frankly, that's one of the smallest problems you can have |
| 20:43.14 | _psychic_ | it's safer to not have a contract if a lawsuit arises?! |
| 20:43.21 | mgeary | sure |
| 20:43.26 | mgeary | what is the client going to say? |
| 20:43.32 | mgeary | "ummm, we asked him to do X" |
| 20:43.45 | _psychic_ | he's going to drag you into court to talk about it, probably out of state |
| 20:43.51 | mgeary | back up |
| 20:44.12 | mgeary | if there's no contract, no lawyer is going to take it on |
| 20:44.38 | _psychic_ | yeah but that leaves *you* vulnerable as well |
| 20:44.50 | mgeary | to what? You created all the IP |
| 20:45.01 | _psychic_ | Okay |
| 20:45.04 | mgeary | and there's presumably abundant evidence of that |
| 20:45.25 | _psychic_ | so you have your sexy knitted cat warmer ecommerce website that you spent the last month on |
| 20:45.36 | _psychic_ | and the bills come rolling in |
| 20:45.59 | _psychic_ | you have no recourse to go after client X |
| 20:46.07 | _psychic_ | who cares about IP at that point |
| 20:46.11 | _psychic_ | it's useless to you |
| 20:46.21 | mgeary | back up. who's site is it? |
| 20:46.28 | mgeary | s/who's/whose |
| 20:46.32 | _psychic_ | mine if they haven't paid |
| 20:46.39 | _psychic_ | which you said you prefer |
| 20:49.27 | mgeary | well, the *code* is yours |
| 20:49.38 | _psychic_ | code don't pay the bills :) |
| 20:49.54 | mgeary | i thought you were referring to bills from the site |
| 20:50.02 | mgeary | you're talking about mortgage payments |
| 20:50.33 | _psychic_ | To me, the risk of not getting paid for weeks or months of work is unacceptable. |
| 20:50.37 | mgeary | my philosophy is: have a good FT job to pay the bills and do contract work for the extras in life. That may be one reason i've taken the position i have |
| 20:51.04 | _psychic_ | but a simple contract gives you an avenue for justice |
| 20:51.12 | mgeary | true |
| 20:51.14 | _psychic_ | what's the drawback of some simple signed agreement? |
| 20:51.19 | mindjuju | hmm... that's actually the approach i'm taking, contracts to supplement FT |
| 20:51.20 | mgeary | may not be one |
| 20:51.30 | _psychic_ | there's all sorts of things it's helped me with |
| 20:51.35 | _psychic_ | limited liability |
| 20:51.42 | mgeary | _psychic_: however, one potential issue is that if i'm going to contract out some work, you can be darn sure i'm going to specify that it's a work for hire |
| 20:51.44 | _psychic_ | copyright law responsibility |
| 20:51.58 | mgeary | at which point you as the contractor now have ZERO ownership over what you've produced |
| 20:52.01 | _psychic_ | arbitration before lawsuits |
| 20:52.15 | _psychic_ | location of court hearings |
| 20:52.18 | mgeary | and in software development that gets very very sticky, because you've probably reused a bunch of code |
| 20:52.22 | _psychic_ | confidentiality |
| 20:52.34 | _psychic_ | rights for reuse or promotion |
| 20:52.36 | mgeary | and i'm now claiming that *i* own that code, which means i can say that *you* cannot |
| 20:52.39 | _psychic_ | warranties |
| 20:53.05 | _psychic_ | how to deal with changes in scope and deadline |
| 20:53.18 | _psychic_ | how to deal with bugs |
| 20:53.37 | xilch|w | I'm not willing to not be paid for my time - therefore, a good contract is a must for me. |
| 20:54.01 | _psychic_ | me too |
| 20:54.09 | *** join/#uphpu wGEric (n=eric@phpbb/leader/wGEric) |
| 20:54.13 | _psychic_ | that goes for bugs and things after delivery too |
| 20:54.18 | xilch|w | Unless the time it takes to spec is less than the time to build, in which case, you are a friend and you get it for free. |
| 20:54.38 | xilch|w | ...or I don't do it. |
| 20:56.27 | mgeary | again, i'm not arguing against a spec |
| 20:56.35 | mgeary | and i'm not really arguing against a contract |
| 20:56.47 | mgeary | i'm just saying that in the absence of a contract, the creator owns everything |
| 20:57.15 | _psychic_ | I don't dispute that |
| 20:57.29 | _psychic_ | my point is just that ownership doesn't help in some instances. |
| 20:57.35 | mgeary | true |
| 20:58.21 | _psychic_ | mindjuju: All I did for mine is google around until I felt I wasn't finding anything new or useful to stick in my contract |
| 20:58.31 | _psychic_ | everyone likes different things |
| 20:58.47 | mindjuju | so, what about code reuse between contracts? |
| 20:58.56 | mindjuju | is that something you say you do in your contract? |
| 20:59.00 | _psychic_ | yeah |
| 20:59.15 | _psychic_ | if there's a concern, we add a non-compete type clause in there |
| 20:59.34 | _psychic_ | "I won't do sexy knitted cat warmer websites for 6 months." |
| 21:00.18 | _psychic_ | people understand that pretty well |
| 21:00.29 | _psychic_ | because I can build their site really fast with things I've created for others |
| 21:00.36 | _psychic_ | so part of the deal is that I retain that ability |
| 21:02.14 | mindjuju | so, if i were to combine everybody's comments into one plan it would be, as the project slides up the risk scale (no previous work for them, larger project, etc) the more a contract should be considered, though if a quick job, one probably not necessary? |
| 21:04.41 | mgeary | maybe this way-- as soon as the project is going to take more time than you're willing to risk not getting paid for |
| 21:05.07 | mgeary | for some people that's a low threshold, but that risk is going to vary *greatly* by client |
| 21:05.27 | mgeary | everyone i do contract work for i've been working with for 8+ years |
| 21:05.34 | mgeary | so i'm not super worried |
| 21:05.37 | _psychic_ | yeah that's the best policy :) |
| 21:06.15 | mgeary | i believe them having access to my expertise is more valuable to them in the long run than trying to save a few bucks on a single gig |
| 21:06.20 | mindjuju | awesome! thx gents -- it was good to see the advice and the reasons for the advice |
| 21:06.48 | thebigdog | my $0.02...do what thebigdog does |
| 21:07.44 | mgeary | just make sure you never relinquish your ownership. Give them an unlimited, unrestricted license, but don't give ownership. Unfortunately, many large companies simply *insist* on ownership. Then things get problematic, because they generally don't understand the subtleties involved |
| 21:08.06 | mgeary | but they're just trying to cover their butts if they get sued |
| 21:09.14 | mgeary | at TLG we're creating an entire new set of code that is IP free so we have fewer complications when/if we need to transfer the ownership |
| 21:29.56 | *** part/#uphpu mrkrow (n=Chad@dsl093-228-239.slc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
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| 22:22.10 | SunSparc | just in case |
| 22:24.00 | thebigdog | what a fitting song |
| 22:24.11 | thebigdog | ~blast mindjuju |
| 22:24.12 | jbot | ACTION pulls her blaster and uses mindjuju for target practice |
| 22:24.30 | mindjuju | ~poo thebigdog |
| 22:24.31 | jbot | ACTION summons a troop of flying monkeys to fling their poo at thebigdog |
| 22:24.34 | thebigdog | ~whaleslap mindjuju |
| 22:24.35 | jbot | ACTION beats mindjuju upside and over the head with a freakishly huge killer whale named Hugh |
| 22:24.46 | mindjuju | ~frenchassault thebigdog |
| 22:24.46 | jbot | ACTION summons the french taunter! thebigdog is an English bedwetting type! thebigdog, I burst my pimples at you... You tiny-brained wipers of other people's bottoms! Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time-a! |
| 22:24.46 | thebigdog | you cant dodge a whale |
| 22:24.51 | thebigdog | SunSparc, you around? |
| 22:25.04 | DexterTheDragon | he's at the end of the bar now |
| 22:25.21 | SunSparc | thebigdog: I am. |
| 22:25.31 | thebigdog | you play wow right? |
| 22:26.00 | SunSparc | thebigdog: I do. Well, until my account expired a month or so again and I have not gotten around to renew it. |
| 22:27.05 | thebigdog | dude i hit some arena with a buddy of mine |
| 22:27.08 | thebigdog | doing some 2s |
| 22:27.22 | thebigdog | we went agains a dual rogue team |
| 22:27.39 | thebigdog | i was on my warrior and my buddy healing pally style |
| 22:27.56 | thebigdog | so we enter in and we are standing around waiting for the rogues to attack |
| 22:28.14 | thebigdog | so they sap me and then proceed to tear my pally apart |
| 22:28.42 | thebigdog | i get out of sap and hit a rogue and drop him to about 180 health |
| 22:29.05 | thebigdog | he sprints away from me to heal himself and i throw my knife and kill him |
| 22:29.22 | thebigdog | then my pally drops cause the other one is just tearing him to shreds |
| 22:29.34 | thebigdog | so its me and a rogue |
| 22:29.39 | SunSparc | thebigdog: Sweet! I love throwing things. |
| 22:29.41 | thebigdog | he vanishes and starts to heal |
| 22:29.50 | thebigdog | so i pop a bandage and then he saps me |
| 22:29.56 | thebigdog | and i cant break it |
| 22:30.22 | thebigdog | so then he runs and vanishes again and heals as i head to this crystal that will let me see him |
| 22:30.44 | thebigdog | i get it and i can find him...he was hidding somewhere that i could see |
| 22:30.55 | thebigdog | so i head for the other crystal and then he saps me again |
| 22:31.03 | thebigdog | i break that one and pound him |
| 22:31.13 | thebigdog | then he sprints and vanishes again |
| 22:31.37 | thebigdog | so i have to wait until he heals and i heal and he is waiting for hsi cooldowns to become available |
| 22:31.53 | thebigdog | he then saps me and gets me to 1/4 health before i break it |
| 22:32.01 | thebigdog | i slam him and then he cant move |
| 22:32.12 | thebigdog | so i start to heal and switch to shield and 1h |
| 22:32.21 | SunSparc | Wow! |
| 22:32.25 | SunSparc | 1h? |
| 22:32.31 | thebigdog | 1 hander |
| 22:32.37 | thebigdog | a 1 hand sword |
| 22:32.46 | thebigdog | normaly u use 2h in arean |
| 22:32.50 | thebigdog | more damage |
| 22:32.54 | SunSparc | Oh, yeah, ok then what? |
| 22:33.02 | thebigdog | but sheild gives me so much protection |
| 22:33.26 | thebigdog | i then rend him which makes him bleed and unable to vanish |
| 22:33.33 | thebigdog | he has to turn on me |
| 22:33.40 | thebigdog | and we are both 1/2 health now |
| 22:33.49 | thebigdog | he got a little heal off |
| 22:33.58 | thebigdog | so then i disarm him and the runs off |
| 22:34.06 | thebigdog | i switch to 2h and then intercept |
| 22:34.24 | thebigdog | that stuns him and i hit execute...2148 crit hit....i win |
| 22:34.34 | thebigdog | 5 minute arean |
| 22:34.54 | thebigdog | 4.5 minutes of the 2 of us going at hit |
| 22:35.11 | thebigdog | it was hilarious to disarm him |
| 22:35.48 | SunSparc | thebigdog: Woot! |
| 22:35.57 | SunSparc | I hate fighting rogues with my Paladin. |
| 22:36.01 | SunSparc | Congrats! |
| 22:36.12 | SunSparc | I bet they were ticked! |
| 22:36.21 | thebigdog | oh yeah 18 points |
| 22:36.39 | thebigdog | that means that we are very close in skill and gear level |
| 22:36.55 | thebigdog | meaning a great match for both teams |
| 22:37.21 | thebigdog | that was a long match...2s dont ever last that long |
| 22:37.49 | thebigdog | i love disarming rogues...they hate that...they cant do anything |
| 22:37.56 | thebigdog | funnier on warriors too |
| 22:37.57 | SunSparc | That would have been fun to spectate. |
| 22:38.15 | thebigdog | yeah my buddy was on vent...yelling and screaming |
| 22:38.24 | thebigdog | i had about 300health left |
| 22:38.40 | SunSparc | Wow, that is intense. :) |
| 22:39.56 | SunSparc | Make me want to renew right now and jump on. |
| 22:41.51 | thebigdog | oh yeah |
| 22:42.24 | mindjuju | WoW - psh! |
| 22:42.29 | mindjuju | Eve looks cool |
| 22:47.36 | *** join/#uphpu kingsol (n=kingsol@64.0.193.254) |
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| 22:59.20 | kingsol | Quick Question. Has anyone used cookies entirely for sessions data (meaning, not just store the key in a cookie, but rather all session data in the cookie) versus storing the data in a DB? |
| 23:06.05 | timinator | no |
| 23:06.17 | timinator | cookies hold only a few k worth of data |
| 23:06.39 | timinator | not to mention, you'd have to sanitize the data each round |
| 23:06.57 | timinator | and pull that data back into the server each round |
| 23:07.17 | timinator | the internet connect is the bottleneck |
| 23:12.51 | beandog | not that this will really come as a shock to anyone |
| 23:13.01 | beandog | but using ssh pubkeys on Macs are much simpler than on Windows. |
| 23:13.10 | beandog | I must say I'm impressed. |
| 23:13.24 | beandog | not because its simpler, but because of how nice it is on OS X. |
| 23:14.05 | xilch|w | If your session was just tracking any random user and their activity - that is the only instance I can think of that you would even want to consider that. |
| 23:14.44 | beandog | mindjuju, what? |
| 23:14.53 | beandog | really, is nice. |
| 23:14.57 | mindjuju | just teasin' |
| 23:14.58 | beandog | took me 3 hours to get it working on windows |
| 23:15.03 | beandog | about 5 minutes on OS X |
| 23:15.34 | beandog | mindjuju, oh |
| 23:15.38 | beandog | buenors. |
| 23:15.47 | timinator | gotta run.... later guys |
| 23:25.48 | SunSparc | So nice. |
| 23:26.04 | SunSparc | On OS X, they just work. |
| 23:44.03 | *** part/#uphpu brasto (n=brasto@166.70.44.49) |
| 23:44.10 | tierra | what's so hard about pageant? |
| 23:44.58 | tierra | takes a second to setup with public keys |
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