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| 03:26.22 | sauerkraut | evening all |
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| 04:07.41 | mindjuju | wow, everybody is coming back tonight |
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| 04:08.10 | samhill | does anyone here have experience bidding on large projects? (e.g. US$5k-10k+) how do you work with the client to get all their specifications down in writing without wasting too much time? isn't it normally something they should pay for like systems analysis and design? |
| 04:08.14 | mindjuju | beandog just came in just before you |
| 04:08.51 | mindjuju | samhill - you may want to ask some of the business owners here for suggestions on that like macnewbold and mgeary |
| 04:08.55 | mgeary | samhill: 5-10k is not exactly a large project, imo |
| 04:09.15 | mgeary | but i guess it's just perspective |
| 04:09.45 | mindjuju | and speaking for macnewbold as we've talked about this several times, scope creep isn't a problem as long as you mention it to the client quickly and mention the increase in price |
| 04:09.58 | mindjuju | and in delivery time |
| 04:10.04 | mgeary | we don't usually charge to issue a bid, but a bid is not necessary the same thing as a scope |
| 04:10.05 | mindjuju | a great piece of advice |
| 04:10.09 | samhill | mgeary: hehehe well yes large is a relative term i am probably a small fish in a big pond here |
| 04:11.35 | mgeary | however, without a hard scope, you do need to document any assumptions you're making, and as soon as an assumption proves wrong, you call it out and warn of cost impacts, like mindjuju said |
| 04:11.46 | samhill | right that's my problem |
| 04:12.12 | samhill | i've read that the specification process is a professional service that is billable. like paying an architect to draw up the blueprints for your house before you pay a developer to build it. |
| 04:12.22 | mgeary | however, maybe it's just me, but i've got several instances of $5k projects that are documented/scoped in a couple of paragraphs in an email |
| 04:12.37 | samhill | but i keep falling into situations where i am spending an enormous amount of time helping the client clarify their specifications before i can even write a proposal |
| 04:12.47 | samhill | i think it has a lot to do with the price range i am in |
| 04:12.57 | samhill | these people are not technical, and they try to save money by writing their own specs |
| 04:13.02 | mgeary | do you get any sort of initial requirements document(s)? |
| 04:13.11 | samhill | yes i'll give you an example |
| 04:13.14 | mgeary | requirements aren't the same as a spec, but it's a good thing to force a client to do |
| 04:13.25 | samhill | what i have is a client who posted a project on one of the freelance sites with a very vague description, i bid on it, they sent me an NDA, i signed, they sent me a word .doc like 17 pages long with obviously every detail they could think of--however they are not technical. |
| 04:13.39 | samhill | i had a number of questions. then i sent a proposal. the client said i left things out and wanted to discuss via phone. after a 2 hour phone call, i offered much advice on how she could accomplish her end-goals, |
| 04:13.47 | samhill | but i've spent a total or 4-5 days on this and i'm feeling like it's not very smart as i have no idea whether she even has the money for the size of project she wants done. |
| 04:13.52 | mgeary | ugh |
| 04:13.56 | samhill | also i am afraid to continue marketing |
| 04:14.06 | samhill | because i am sitting here focused on reeling her in (i am a one man show right now, thats another issue) |
| 04:14.27 | samhill | and i already know that is the exact opposite of what needs to be happening |
| 04:14.27 | mgeary | one useful way is to force the client to write out use scenarios. have them stop immediately with any sort of "technical documentation", and instead document: |
| 04:14.38 | mgeary | 1) what user types will be interfacing with the application |
| 04:14.51 | mgeary | 2) for each user, what *specific* activities/tasks do they need to accomplish |
| 04:15.20 | samhill | this sounds like UML diagrams |
| 04:15.36 | mgeary | sometimes, it helps to do this as a narrative: "michael is an admin for company X who needs to add a new customer. he logs in to the admin portal and clicks on 'user management'..." |
| 04:15.45 | mgeary | yes, like UML but without UML ;) |
| 04:15.55 | mgeary | but these are the kinds of things you can make the *client* do |
| 04:16.04 | samhill | right |
| 04:16.10 | samhill | so that is what i am finding myself doing here |
| 04:16.10 | mgeary | they shouldn't try to do anything technical, generally |
| 04:16.20 | mgeary | they should help you fully understand the requirements |
| 04:16.25 | samhill | i need a way to sell the client on the value of paying for professional services to generate the technical specifications |
| 04:16.44 | mgeary | well, if you can get enough information from them, your burden goes way down |
| 04:17.08 | mgeary | it sounds to me like your problem is that you're trying to create a spec without having fully captured the requirements |
| 04:17.16 | mgeary | and that *is* painful |
| 04:17.31 | samhill | yes well in truth i am being motivated to seek out this solution because i have already run into a problem |
| 04:17.44 | samhill | i am feeling like these clients are in a lower price range, they are a little harder to sell on that because they want to spend as much money on development and as little money on things like project management, systems analysis and design, rapid prototyping, etc. |
| 04:17.53 | samhill | but i like working in this price range so i am trying to find a way to address that professionally |
| 04:18.08 | samhill | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:18.29 | samhill | the client was insisting on additions that weren't documented and wanted them for free |
| 04:18.38 | samhill | 04 01it could have been prevented with more detailed proposal, but that would have taken hours i wasn't willing to dedicate [for free]. |
| 04:18.39 | mindjuju | you know samhill, i just read an article about these very same topics |
| 04:18.47 | mindjuju | let me see if i can find it real quick |
| 04:18.51 | samhill | ok great |
| 04:19.08 | samhill | btw i found this great article that helped a little bit |
| 04:19.08 | samhill | http://software.isixsigma.com/library/content/c030312a.asp |
| 04:19.21 | samhill | just in case you ever find yourself offering the same advice in the future |
| 04:19.59 | mgeary | scope creep isn't a bad thing. being too rigid means you don't build the best app you can |
| 04:20.10 | mgeary | you just need to set expectations with the client |
| 04:20.15 | mindjuju | here is the article i read, was actually still on my desktop |
| 04:20.16 | mindjuju | http://www.wakeuplater.com/freelance-lessons/10-absolute-nos-for-freelancers.aspx |
| 04:20.33 | mindjuju | i personally thought it was well written |
| 04:20.58 | samhill | right. my goal is to 1) document as much as possible; close up the gaps as tightly as possible and get the most accurate proposal possible, 2) include a way in the proposal to request scope changes and pay for them |
| 04:21.02 | samhill | looking now |
| 04:21.08 | mindjuju | but then, i'm a corporate man and mgeary and macnewbold are owners, so their critique will be truer, methinks |
| 04:23.02 | samhill | "Unfortunately, I quickly found myself working all the time, eating Ramen noodles, and not getting anywhere in terms of paying off my wonderful college debt." ahaha |
| 04:23.06 | samhill | this article was written for me |
| 04:23.21 | mindjuju | :) |
| 04:23.33 | mgeary | samhill: when the client wants something for free, you need to become comfortable saying, "hey, that's a great idea for additional functionality, but that wasn't on the radar when we were talking price. Let me shoot you a quick email that documents that feature and has an additional cost, and you can let me know if we should go ahead with it, or if you'd rather wait" |
| 04:24.03 | mgeary | and don't ever give out bids over the phone |
| 04:24.44 | mgeary | always put it in writing, and always document any assumptions you're making, and make sure you indicate that if those assumptions aren't completely correct, your cost projection is subject to (complete) revision |
| 04:24.59 | samhill | great advice |
| 04:25.04 | mgeary | none of what i'm saying suggests that you have to produce an exhaustive specification |
| 04:25.09 | mgeary | i hate writing specs |
| 04:26.17 | samhill | "Give them a registrar and hosting company and let them sign up themselves." ohh this is one i have been debating seriously |
| 04:26.17 | mgeary | and often, they're not really useful (at least in the size shop we've got). But in a larger operation, on large projects, they're an important safeguard |
| 04:26.31 | samhill | now i recall the horror stories a old friend i know was sharing with me |
| 04:26.38 | samhill | trying to run hosting services |
| 04:26.49 | samhill | would you concur with that? |
| 04:27.18 | mindjuju | yes, am in a similar situation, but not of my own accord |
| 04:27.21 | mgeary | my take on that is: i don't mind offering hosting as long as they understand that i'm not going to compete with <insert commodity isp here> |
| 04:27.49 | mgeary | if we provide hosting, it's either for a very profitable client, or for someone who doesn't mind paying a premium |
| 04:27.55 | mindjuju | and yes, do get tons of phone calls looking for support |
| 04:28.22 | samhill | i have so far been referring to 1and1. the funny thing is that i have had clients call me (because they also know me in real life and want to be buddies with me) to ask about technical support issues taht even the cheapest employee at 1and1's call center could answer. it's not worth my time, and when they mix it in with idle chit-chat, it's an even greater waste of time |
| 04:28.36 | samhill | fortunately, i've always been able to say 'call 1and1' 'here is their number...' |
| 04:28.56 | samhill | but that didn't stop me from envisioning all the easy cash flow i could be earning off a bunch of hosting setups |
| 04:28.57 | mindjuju | i've got to bail Gents,see ya'll tomorrow! |
| 04:29.04 | samhill | cya mindjuju. thnx |
| 04:29.08 | mgeary | later |
| 04:29.12 | samhill | but support would kill me for sure |
| 04:29.45 | mgeary | yes, i wouldn't ever offer hosting to someone who was managing their own site |
| 04:29.52 | mgeary | where they had ftp access, etc |
| 04:30.04 | samhill | in this case it was email |
| 04:30.08 | mgeary | ugh |
| 04:30.14 | samhill | i think another problem there is if i am billable at US$100/hr. and i am performing a US$8/hr. task (tech support/customer service) then i am losing major ground |
| 04:30.19 | mgeary | email is different |
| 04:30.27 | mgeary | i wouldn't ever host email |
| 04:30.29 | mgeary | huge pain |
| 04:30.42 | mgeary | we've got a reseller account with Everyone.net, and we just run everything through that |
| 04:30.49 | mgeary | much less pain |
| 04:31.22 | samhill | ya definitely glad im reading this article |
| 04:31.23 | samhill | well another funny thing is the client wouldn't call 1and1 because they didn't want to deal with the tech support, so it wasn't really even worth it to them to figure out the answer to their question. but they sure didn't mind wanting to waste a bunch of my time with it... |
| 04:33.37 | samhill | "I require 50% up front" i've grappled with that one too |
| 04:33.51 | samhill | its tougher the larger project you go it seems |
| 04:34.05 | samhill | the client seems to say 'well what happens if you disappear' etc. |
| 04:35.09 | mgeary | for freelance projects, i actually prefer to NOT collect anything up front |
| 04:35.32 | mgeary | because if it all goes down the toilet, i can walk away knowing that i don't owe anyone anything |
| 04:35.53 | mgeary | 'course that's for freelance projects, where i've got a fulltime job to pay the bills, and freelance is gravy |
| 04:36.50 | mgeary | but for bigger solo projects (> $15k), i will generally get 25%-33% up front |
| 04:38.00 | samhill | ya great article |
| 04:38.12 | samhill | so do you actually provide a service for spec'ing a project |
| 04:38.25 | mgeary | not usually |
| 04:38.30 | samhill | or do you have any specific requirements for how a client ought to prepare and provide specifications |
| 04:39.04 | mgeary | depends on the client, but that's where those user definitions and usage scenarios come in to play |
| 04:39.19 | mgeary | another thing i really like is to take an atomic view of development |
| 04:39.32 | mgeary | in other words, at any given time, build the *smallest* possible thing you can |
| 04:39.51 | mgeary | break projects up into phases, and have each phase be as specific, focused and tight as you can |
| 04:40.20 | mgeary | that really eliminates the fuzziness that can come when you've got a huge, monolithic scope doc |
| 04:40.36 | mgeary | i believe this is also something advocated in the Agile programming methodology |
| 04:40.59 | mgeary | frequent small releases, rather than massive infrequent releases |
| 04:43.12 | samhill | right |
| 04:43.28 | samhill | well i had one client, a lady in Colorado, who wanted to basically babysit me while i worked |
| 04:43.34 | samhill | hows that for frequent small releases hehehe |
| 04:43.44 | samhill | she actually requested that we could use gotomeeting so she could see how i work |
| 04:43.57 | samhill | and define it literally as we went along |
| 04:44.06 | mgeary | wow, now that's someone who doesn't value their own time |
| 04:44.08 | samhill | i did it for two 2 hour sessions and then had enough |
| 04:44.35 | samhill | well i felt bad for the lady as she was saying she had been screwed by all these contractors for huge sums of money |
| 04:44.47 | mgeary | oh yeah, i hear that all the time |
| 04:44.47 | samhill | i thuoght i could convert her to a nice client cuz she talked like she had the money |
| 04:44.55 | samhill | but looking back i think it was all her personal problems |
| 04:44.57 | samhill | she doesnt trust anyone |
| 04:45.00 | mgeary | but that's not *your* problem |
| 04:45.03 | samhill | right |
| 04:45.04 | samhill | lol |
| 04:45.06 | samhill | geez |
| 04:45.13 | samhill | some of those clients out there can be total sharks |
| 04:45.19 | mgeary | "hey, i have this scope, and someone else used up all my budget and i don't have jack, can you help?" |
| 04:45.24 | samhill | and when they smell newbie freelancer blood, they latch on |
| 04:45.24 | mgeary | uhhhhhh |
| 04:45.38 | samhill | right |
| 04:45.38 | samhill | hahaha |
| 04:47.38 | samhill | http://www.wakeuplater.com/interviews/freelance-to-firm-interview-with-jason-locy.aspx |
| 04:47.42 | samhill | there are some pretty good articles here |
| 04:48.51 | mgeary | one thing you may want to seriously consider is working FT for a development company before going FT freelance |
| 04:49.09 | mgeary | *or in a development department of a bigger company |
| 04:49.10 | samhill | well i am already ft freelance |
| 04:49.13 | mgeary | right |
| 04:49.14 | samhill | but i have thought about taht |
| 04:49.20 | samhill | a little corporate espionage :) |
| 04:49.27 | mgeary | heh. not really |
| 04:49.38 | mgeary | unless you plan on stealing clients, which is a crappy thing to do |
| 04:49.49 | samhill | no im just being sarcastic |
| 04:49.57 | samhill | ya it would be a great way to learn the ropes im sure |
| 04:50.03 | mgeary | you give your time working on their projects, and in exchange you get money and experience that helps broaden your perspective |
| 04:50.19 | mgeary | there's plenty of work out there |
| 04:51.00 | samhill | "I was working another job at the time but as his workload grew he started outsourcing some websites and stuff to me to do in my free time. In 2001 I lost my job and needed money so I started doing more freelance stuff for my friend as I looked for work. After a couple of months I stopped looking for work and just kept doing freelance stuff and tried to get other clients." |
| 04:51.08 | samhill | that's jason locy's story but its pretty much what happened to me |
| 04:51.17 | samhill | and i imagine a lot of people now that we're having a recession |
| 04:52.06 | mgeary | i have yet to hear of any development company laying programmers off |
| 04:52.30 | mgeary | i believe there's at least 2 companies represented on this list who have open developer positions they can't fill |
| 04:55.59 | samhill | mgeary: on "this" list? |
| 04:56.04 | mgeary | yep |
| 04:56.12 | samhill | which list? |
| 04:56.21 | mgeary | well, the uphpu group/list/whatever |
| 04:56.27 | mgeary | are you in Utah? |
| 04:57.33 | samhill | yep |
| 04:58.39 | samhill | the problem with developer positions is usually the pay is too little |
| 04:58.55 | samhill | my salary expectations range between $60-80k/yr |
| 04:59.03 | samhill | which i guess is a little high for utah |
| 05:00.08 | samhill | "In the freelance world, it's both common and easy to deride any thought of working a corporate job. But the truth is, given the right environment, working for someone else can be very gratifying and, for some people, better than freelancing." |
| 05:00.12 | samhill | http://www.wakeuplater.com/interviews/corporate-isnt-so-bad-interview-with-brett-nyquist.aspx |
| 05:00.37 | mgeary | samhill: that's not high if you've got, say, 5+ years of *good* experience |
| 05:01.08 | mgeary | i know a company on this list that has a position in the 60-80k range, and they've had a heck of a time getting people to apply |
| 05:01.14 | mgeary | it looks like a great position, too |
| 05:01.20 | samhill | link me :) |
| 05:01.41 | mgeary | come back to this list in the morning and hit wps |
| 05:04.08 | samhill | define:wps? |
| 05:06.22 | mgeary | he's a regular here |
| 05:06.31 | samhill | ah ok |
| 05:06.32 | samhill | will do |
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| 11:58.53 | RedHeron | Found in my Gmail "spam" folder: http://www.recipesource.com/main-dishes/meat/pork/spam/00/rec0025.html |
| 11:59.09 | RedHeron | From my sister, who just thought the link was cool. |
| 11:59.19 | RedHeron | Thought it funny and fun enough to share. |
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| 14:40.49 | mindjuju | morning all |
| 14:40.59 | jsmith | Morning mindjuju |
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| 15:14.55 | timinator | morning guys |
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| 15:15.17 | mindjuju | morning |
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| 15:17.46 | thebigdog | morning all |
| 15:17.57 | mgeary | morning |
| 15:18.22 | mindjuju | morning |
| 15:22.23 | mindjuju | for those of you who took off sick yesterday and are now fighting 150+ emails, I present gum, especially for cats - http://www.blueq.com/shop/item/114-productId.125837547_114-catId.117440549.html |
| 15:23.22 | thebigdog | too funny |
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| 15:33.49 | mgeary | hey |
| 15:34.14 | mgeary | anyone know how to use the --exclude flag in egrep to exclude an entire directory? my various attempts don't appear to be working |
| 15:34.30 | mgeary | tried --exclude="dirname/" |
| 15:34.39 | mgeary | tried --exclude="dirname/*" |
| 15:37.26 | fungus | not sure, I've never used that before. |
| 15:37.52 | fungus | From reading the man page it might be that it only matches the file's name, not the path. |
| 15:38.40 | mgeary | bummer |
| 15:38.59 | fungus | I could be wrong though... |
| 15:39.13 | fungus | You could also just grep everything and filter the output. |
| 15:39.39 | fungus | grep -r "pattern" dir/ | grep -v dir/baddir |
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| 16:15.37 | beandog | oh man. |
| 16:15.42 | beandog | has anyone setup mysql + ssl before |
| 16:15.57 | beandog | I find it hard to believe that the only way to get it to work is to pass arguments to the mysqld process |
| 16:17.32 | wps | I am sure tiring of clients that hire consultants and expect the benefits of an employee |
| 16:17.48 | wps | if you want an employee… hire one |
| 16:18.06 | beandog | wps, did they want you to pick up their dry cleaning? |
| 16:18.12 | wps | yes |
| 16:18.15 | beandog | O.o |
| 16:18.20 | wps | :) |
| 16:18.55 | wps | they were demanding that I come into their office to work in front of them while they looked over my shoulder |
| 16:19.14 | beandog | that's even worse. |
| 16:19.30 | wps | no kidding… I'd rather wash their laundry by hand than do that |
| 16:19.41 | beandog | Hmm |
| 16:19.44 | beandog | Yah |
| 16:19.47 | beandog | even that'd be better. |
| 16:20.58 | wps | and the thing that kills me with this client is that with this and everything we come up against… they act like that is completely normal and industry standard and that I am completely unreasonable for saying no |
| 16:21.18 | wps | (this is for design work, by-the-way… not coding) |
| 16:21.35 | wps | I don't know any artist that would agree to their terms… unless it was some novice or college kid that didn't know better |
| 16:22.34 | beandog | oh man |
| 16:22.35 | beandog | thats crazy. |
| 16:22.41 | beandog | well, just throw some hot coffee in their face. |
| 16:22.48 | wps | :) |
| 16:23.11 | wps | I'm just getting tired of side work |
| 16:23.20 | wps | I like the projects but am really getting tired of the clients |
| 16:23.43 | wps | I'm tired of people that want something for nothing |
| 16:23.46 | mgeary | wps: just tell them that you can't do that for their own protection. That would blur too much the distinction between contractor and employee, and they'd be at risk of prosecution for not withholding your taxes, etc |
| 16:24.02 | wps | good call, mgeary |
| 16:24.28 | mgeary | a contractor, by IRS definition, is someone who uses their own equiment, at the location of their choosing, and accomplishes the task using their own discretion |
| 16:24.54 | mgeary | that's what got Microsoft into all that hot water with those on-site "contractors" they had |
| 16:25.06 | mgeary | they got reamed for years of back-tax withholding |
| 16:25.17 | wps | there was a company in provo that got hit with that oo |
| 16:25.17 | wps | too |
| 16:25.30 | mgeary | and the contractors, which were ruled as actually employees, were able to sue for back-benefits, i believe |
| 16:25.30 | wps | they hired a slew of college kids as contracts so that they didn't have to pay and taxes or benefits |
| 16:25.46 | wps | s/and/any/ |
| 16:25.59 | mgeary | so, just tell your client(s), that you've seen too many problems in this arena, and you don't want them to get in trouble |
| 16:26.52 | beandog | I like my coffee idea better. |
| 16:26.57 | beandog | sends a clear message. |
| 16:27.02 | beandog | "you smell like coffee" |
| 16:29.58 | SunSparc | We need more HR personnel like you beandog |
| 16:30.19 | SunSparc | wps: I would tell your client no. |
| 16:30.29 | wps | I did |
| 16:30.37 | SunSparc | Good job! |
| 16:36.09 | mindjuju | should LIST give all list all emails in a telnet session? |
| 16:37.33 | SunSparc | Umm, never heard of that. |
| 16:37.55 | mindjuju | RETR 1 |
| 16:38.06 | mindjuju | dagnabit, wrong window |
| 16:38.21 | wps | I love the word dagnabit |
| 16:38.34 | wps | it's right up there with dillweed and fuzzy woogit |
| 16:40.13 | *** join/#uphpu jsmith-busy (n=jsmith@216.207.245.1) |
| 16:42.14 | unum | is fuzzy woogit an oxymoron? |
| 16:42.18 | unum | I guess not |
| 16:42.34 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v jsmith] by ChanServ |
| 16:42.44 | unum | but does it violate the utah lagauge rules? |
| 16:43.18 | timinator | probably not, they're pretty lenient |
| 16:43.21 | timinator | :) |
| 16:43.42 | unum | I think it's #utah that's more stringent |
| 16:44.03 | unum | of course I only learned that term a few months ago |
| 16:47.53 | SunSparc | how about "fiddlefarting" |
| 16:49.07 | SunSparc | mindjuju: what are you trying to do in your telnet session? |
| 16:49.37 | fungus | ahh, mindjuju meant using POP3 directly (via telnet). |
| 16:49.47 | fungus | Yes, LIST should list all messages. |
| 16:50.03 | SunSparc | AH, that is why he was not making sense. |
| 16:56.24 | macnewbold | ~girlscout mindjuju |
| 16:58.44 | mindjuju | and yep, was telneting to email server |
| 16:59.11 | mindjuju | i know, i know, it's hard to believe that an active win sysadmin actually uses the CLI |
| 17:00.24 | SunSparc | :) |
| 17:47.12 | synic | beandog: I rated that one before I posted it, just for you. |
| 17:50.07 | josephscott | mindjuju: going to post something about the geek lunch on Friday to uphpu.org ? |
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| 19:04.28 | beandog | synic, aww, thx |
| 19:21.17 | thebigdog | mindjuju, what was the url for the pants in the button thing |
| 19:21.19 | thebigdog | for babbies |
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| 19:23.33 | mikesmullin | wps: you around |
| 19:27.08 | PoeticIntensity | thebigdog, pantsinapinch.com |
| 19:32.01 | thebigdog | oh yeah |
| 19:32.11 | thebigdog | had to send that too a friend that has a new baby |
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| 21:53.55 | beandog | okay |
| 21:54.07 | beandog | so Im making a mysql connection over SSL. At least I think I am. how do I make sure, though? |
| 21:54.41 | beandog | I guess I could do some traffic monitoring foo, but that's beyond my skillz. |
| 21:56.44 | mindjuju | do you have a firewall between you and the mySQL server? |
| 21:59.31 | beandog | mindjuju, no, its connected |
| 21:59.33 | beandog | I have an open mysql session |
| 21:59.37 | beandog | using mysql --ssl |
| 21:59.45 | beandog | I just wanna verify its encrypted |
| 22:00.24 | mindjuju | ohhhhh..... gotcha |
| 22:00.45 | mindjuju | ~seen dataw0lf |
| 22:00.48 | jbot | dataw0lf <n=stderr@71.9.96.129> was last seen on IRC in channel #uphpu, 6d 21h 54m 44s ago, saying: 'Utah_Dave: http://codespeak.net/lxml/'. |
| 22:01.18 | SunSparc | Wow, that is a long time without dataw0lf |
| 22:01.33 | SunSparc | ~seen SunSparc |
| 22:01.35 | jbot | sunsparc is currently on #uphpu (5h 54m 38s). Has said a total of 10 messages. Is idling for 2s, last said: '~seen SunSparc '. |
| 22:02.20 | beandog | SSL:Not in use |
| 22:02.22 | beandog | suck. |
| 22:10.28 | mindjuju | josephscott , thx for reminder, i'll post something shortly |
| 22:10.40 | mindjuju | thebigdog , don't know about the pants button, but looks cool |
| 22:11.13 | thebigdog | yeah that is funny |
| 22:11.58 | mindjuju | ~goog mp3 mime type |
| 22:12.44 | mindjuju | that weird |
| 22:14.32 | mindjuju | hmmm, thought there was a google look up, guess not |
| 22:14.34 | mindjuju | ~mp3 |
| 22:14.35 | jbot | methinks mp3 is (MPEG-1 layer 3) This is a compression standard for music. It enables you to fit over 100 full length songs on a single CD with almost no loss of quality. You can find MP3 players and MP3 files on the Web--you just have to look. The music industry is unhappy about MP3 files being swapped around and has shut down some sites that distribute them. |
| 22:15.07 | mindjuju | jbot, mp3 is also MIME type - audio/mpeg |
| 22:15.08 | jbot | mindjuju: okay |
| 22:15.14 | mindjuju | ~mp3 |
| 22:15.15 | jbot | well, mp3 is (MPEG-1 layer 3) This is a compression standard for music. It enables you to fit over 100 full length songs on a single CD with almost no loss of quality. You can find MP3 players and MP3 files on the Web--you just have to look. The music industry is unhappy about MP3 files being swapped around and has shut down some sites that distribute them.. MIME ... |
| 22:19.56 | beandog | that should say, the recording industry is unhappy, not the music one. |
| 22:20.00 | beandog | </nitpick> |
| 22:32.27 | brasto_ | ^[a-zA-Z0-9]+([\w\d\s]*)$ |
| 22:33.04 | brasto_ | that should validate a string so it starts with alphanumeric, and allows for white space and alphanumeric after the first character, but it's not... anyone know why? |
| 22:33.13 | brasto_ | it doesn't allow whitespace anywhere. |
| 22:33.45 | brasto | ~ping a regex guru |
| 22:33.46 | jbot | pong a regex guru |
| 22:35.09 | brasto | ~teach jsmith |
| 22:35.28 | jsmith | ~learn brasto |
| 22:35.36 | brasto | lol |
| 22:35.43 | jsmith | ~school brasto |
| 22:35.44 | jbot | ACTION slaps brasto around, robs'm, then reminds'm to be thankfully for the education. |
| 22:35.48 | jsmith | ~edumacate brasto |
| 22:39.02 | brasto | ~teach $1 is <action> lectures $1 on good programming and database design until $1 can't take it anymore and goes berserk. |
| 22:39.03 | jbot | ACTION sits $1 down and forces $1 to learn to is <action> lectures $1 on good programming and database design until $1 can't take it anymore and goes berserk., even if it takes 15 years |
| 22:39.30 | brasto | darn... someone beat me to it... |
| 22:39.40 | brasto | ~brastotack jsmith |
| 22:39.40 | jbot | ACTION lectures jsmith on properly designed databases, normalization, writing quality code with comments, and active-voice writing until jsmith can't take anymore and goes berserk. |
| 22:39.58 | brasto | but... i've always got that one... |
| 22:40.01 | fungus | brasto: simplify your regex. ^[A-Za-z0-9]+.*$ |
| 22:41.31 | fungus | Or forget the last part altogether ^[A-Za-z0-9]+ |
| 22:42.04 | jsmith | brasto: No need no lecture me on properly designed databases or active-voice writing |
| 22:42.05 | brasto | fungus: will that second recommendation allow non-alphanumeric chars? |
| 22:42.22 | brasto | jsmith: |
| 22:42.26 | brasto | doh... |
| 22:42.27 | fungus | Not in the first char |
| 22:42.49 | brasto | jsmith: it's the going berserk part that counts ;) |
| 22:43.14 | mindjuju | mild-mannered jsmith going berserk ? |
| 22:43.27 | brasto | fungus: i want to make it so that it allows alphanumeric for the first char, then alphanumeric plus spaces after the first char. |
| 22:45.01 | brasto | so, fungus, both your recommendations don't quite do what I want. the one i posted almost does what i want, but it doesn't allow spaces after the first char... |
| 22:45.06 | fungus | BTW \w is [A-Za-z0-9_] |
| 22:45.21 | brasto | ah... |
| 22:45.51 | fungus | If you want spaces, but not tabs or newlines use a literal space |
| 22:46.10 | fungus | ^\w+[\w ]*$ |
| 22:46.13 | brasto | fungus: so this: ^[a-zA-Z0-9]+([\w]*)$ ? |
| 22:46.38 | brasto | oh, so what's the literal space code? |
| 22:47.42 | fungus | http://us3.php.net/manual/en/reference.pcre.pattern.syntax.php |
| 22:49.40 | fungus | lol the space is the literal space |
| 22:49.52 | fungus | ^\w+[\w ]*$ |
| 22:50.01 | fungus | unless a leading underscore is unacceptable. |
| 22:50.54 | fungus | then use ^[a-zA-Z0-9]+[\w ]*$ |
| 22:52.06 | fungus | use \s instead of <space> if you want to include tabs and newlines. |
| 22:59.30 | mindjuju | ah nothing beats a nice big bowl of lime flavored Schubert |
| 22:59.35 | mindjuju | :) |
| 22:59.39 | SunSparc | lol |
| 22:59.46 | SunSparc | I prefer raspberry |
| 23:00.01 | SunSparc | Or orange |
| 23:27.12 | timinator | I'm out.... later guys |
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| 23:47.44 | SunSparc | Night all! |
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