IRC log for #uphpu on 20080122

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15:50.40*** topic/#uphpu is Utah PHP Users | uphpu.org
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15:50.52mindjuju~seen dataw0lf
15:50.55jbotdataw0lf <n=stderr@adsl-75-14-203-206.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #utah, 20h 40m 52s ago, saying: 'you can*'.
15:51.08optikalmindjuju: Hey~
15:51.10optikalHow goes it?
15:51.17mindjujupretty good, what you up to?
15:51.41optikalJust tryin to wrap up all the craziness around here... changing jobs come next week.
15:51.52mindjujubigger, better?
15:52.09optikalIndeed, much.
15:52.14mindjujuawesome!
15:54.43optikalGoing to be the Senior Systems Engineer over at Interbank FX with cycokilr.
15:54.49optikalPretty excited for it.
15:54.59mindjujudude!  that's freakin awesome!
15:55.14mindjujuprolly making bank too
15:58.28mindjujuwow, stock market made another 200pt drop this morn after the fed rate cut
15:59.05optikalhehe yeah, it's a nice boost in pay.  Boss here offered me a 25% salary increase if I were to stay, but the opportunity over at Interbank FX is just too awesome.
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16:16.45timinatorcongrats optikal
16:20.53wpshow do you rename a MySQL table?
16:21.54timinatorPMA++
16:22.18wpsthe manual says:
16:22.19wpsRENAME TABLE tbl_name TO new_tbl_name
16:22.21wpsbut that doesn't work
16:22.43jgiboneydo you have any mysql tools loaded on the machine?
16:22.56wpsI have no idea
16:23.02wpswhat are MySQL tools?
16:23.20timinatorwps:    RENAME TABLE `table`.`jack`  TO `table`.`jill` ;
16:23.24jgiboneyMySQL Administrator, PHPMyAdmin
16:23.36wpsno, I use MySQL monitor (command line)
16:23.48RedHeronCLI is best.
16:24.12RedHeronThat way you learn to think about it in terms of how it works, instead of blindly trying to learn it.
16:24.32RedHeronBlind people have a hard time reading regular print.
16:24.42jgiboneyI like brail
16:24.50timinatorwps: did that work?
16:24.50jsmithWorst part is... I'm stuck using MySQL today instead of PostgreSQL
16:25.03RedHeronMySQL is actually preferable.
16:25.11RedHeronBetter support, actually.
16:25.19jgiboneyLets have a flame war!!!
16:25.32timinatorWOOOHOOOOO: FLAME WAR!!!!
16:25.37RedHeronSo if you step away from the project, they aren't stuck scratching their heads.
16:26.00jgiboneyWhat if I have lice?
16:26.00RedHeronPostgre is faster and more reliable, but harder to find people to use.
16:26.24jsmithRedHeron: By that same token, so is Oracle... where does that leave MySQL?
16:26.38RedHeronMySQL is cheaper than Oracle.
16:26.48jsmithRedHeron: But not as cheap as PostgreSQL
16:26.51jgiboneyAnyone selling hot dogs?
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16:27.29RedHeron"cheaper" doesn't connote "better for overall use at the moment"
16:27.42brastoMySQL is free... does postgres pay people to use it?
16:27.47brasto;)
16:28.02RedHeronbrasto: I think jsmith was meaning the commercial licensing price.
16:28.25timinatorHot Dogs! Popcorn! Soda! Come and get it!!!
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16:28.38jgiboneytiminator: make sure your snack shop isn't made of wood
16:28.44brastoI thought he might have been, but I was pointing out that you can get it free, as you can postgres.
16:28.45mindjujuwps, did you get that table rename to work?
16:28.55timinatorfungus: you're just in time for a DB flame war!
16:29.07fungusyay, more flame wars
16:29.39timinatorI'm in the lumber industry.... of course it's made of wood
16:29.40timinator:)
16:29.53fungusMySQL rulez, and Postgres drools
16:29.57RedHeronBah.
16:30.02timinatorgotta find someplace to put the wood.... housing market sucks right now
16:30.10fungusanyone that likes Postgres is lame and evil.
16:30.11timinatorTY brasto
16:30.16fungus:P
16:30.22RedHeronPostgre *IS* better, but it's not as salable to clients.
16:30.22timinatorfungus: LOL
16:30.28mindjuju~beavis brasto wood
16:30.29jbot<beavis>brasto said wood</beavis>
16:30.35jsmithRedHeron: I disagree...
16:30.35brastospeaking of timinator, how's that new terminator series on tv?
16:30.47timinatorheck, I dunno
16:30.52RedHeronjsmith: What do you base your disagreement on?
16:30.58timinatorthinking of changing my handle to timbaland
16:31.00timinator:)
16:31.44jsmithRedHeron: I'll admit that it's harder to find qualified PostgreSQL DBAs than MySQL DBAs, but it's been my experience that most PostgreSQL DBAs understand things like triggers, views, foreign key enforcement, etc., where most MySQL DBAs don't.
16:32.23RedHeronjsmith: I'm not arguing that point. I'm arguing client perspective
16:32.26jsmithRedHeron: I've explained that to my clients, along with the licensing, and they've been very supportive of using PostgreSQL
16:32.41RedHeronjsmith: What happens when you leave?
16:33.10jsmithRedHeron: C'mon -- you seriously think that PostgreSQL is *that* much harder to figure out than MySQL, that someone can't come along and follow what I've done?
16:33.35RedHeronjsmith: Trust me, it's a matter of being in the "business rush" and people don't have time to figure it out.
16:33.42RedHeronThey want experience.
16:33.42jsmithIf I got hit by a garbage truck today, I have no doubt that someone else could easily come along and hit the ground running.
16:33.56jsmithEven if they'd only used MySQL, and never used PostgreSQL
16:34.10jsmithOf course, maybe that's because I'm fanatical about documentation, but that's another story for another day
16:34.33RedHeronThat's YOU then (I'm also fanatic about documentation).
16:34.41jsmithBesides, anybody with a half-decent database abstraction layer should be able to switch databases in his sleep
16:34.50optikaltimbaland: A bit delayed, but thanks :D
16:34.51jsmith(assuming, of course, that the underlying database have the same feature sets)
16:35.05RedHeronSo then, why switch DB's?
16:35.07timbalandoptikal: so was my congratulations :)
16:35.18optikalhehe
16:35.19RedHeronThe consumption of time is an issue.
16:35.42timbalandthere goes brasto, plugging his new UG
16:35.44timbalandLOL
16:35.53jsmithRedHeron: I'm saying it's possible... I"m not advocating for going and switching
16:36.12jsmithRedHeron: But in a pinch, it's one more option
16:36.12RedHeronjsmith: And I'm not talking about theoretics, I'm talking about practical application.
16:36.12timbalandLOL
16:36.34jsmithbrasto: Because I don't live in Utah any more, and don't have the spare cycles for yet another mailing list
16:36.47timbalandjk brasto
16:36.55wpsno, I don't understand the example given
16:37.00brastoI don't have a mail list yet, but we do plan to have one
16:37.05timbalandwps: my example?!?!
16:37.09wpsyeah
16:37.22timbalandit simply identifies the table in each name
16:37.28jsmithRedHeron: I'm not saying this to brag, but I used to run one of the top 5 MySQL installations in the world.  I know a thing or two about MySQL, including all the ugly sides people rarely see.
16:37.30timbalandwhat's your table name?
16:37.32timbalandoops
16:37.37mindjujuwhat's the error?
16:37.40timbalandDB name, not table name
16:37.45timbalandwhat's your DB called
16:37.51RedHeronjsmith: And I'm _NOT_ arguing that point.
16:37.52mindjujuwait, he's trying to rename the table, not the database
16:38.06wpsshouldn't…
16:38.15wpsrename old_tbl_name to new_tbl_name
16:38.16wps…work?
16:38.16timbalandright.... here's the example again:   RENAME TABLE `table`.`jack`  TO `table`.`jill` ;
16:38.24RedHeronjsmith: I'm saying that from a client perspective, MySQL serves them better because they won't have such a time of finding people.
16:38.25wpswhat's with all the ticks?
16:38.25jsmithRedHeron: No, the point you're arguing is "My clients should choose MySQL over PostgreSQL, because it's easier to find a cheap admin to run it."
16:38.29timbalandoops.... I put "table" in there too
16:38.47timbalandk, here it is again:   RENAME TABLE `database`.`jack`  TO `database `.`jill` ;
16:38.54timbalandthere, that should work
16:38.54jsmithRedHeron: Should I write all my websites in VB, because VB programmers are cheaper than PHP programmers?
16:39.15timbalandwps: you don't *need* the ticks
16:39.16wpsif I am already using the database then I shouldn't need to include that in the command, though, right?
16:39.17jsmithRedHeron: Should I buy a Chevy instead of a BMW, as the Chevy mechanics are cheaper?
16:39.28RedHeronI don't know about cars.
16:39.33timbalandI think you do.... try it man
16:39.50timbalandwhat's your DB called?
16:39.51jsmithRedHeron: If it's worth writing, it's worth writing *well*, even if it's gonna cost a little more to maintain over the long haul.
16:40.00RedHeronI don't think I've ever seen a site written in VB.
16:40.06timbalandand what is the current name and future name of the table
16:40.14mindjujuwps
16:40.17mindjujucheck this out
16:40.17jsmithRedHeron: I've been there, done that with throwaway code, and I'd like to think I've evolved past that
16:40.18mindjujuhttp://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/alter-table.html
16:40.25mindjujuit's saying to use the alter table
16:40.32RedHeronjsmith: You're arguing off the point I'm making.
16:40.35RedHeronWELL off.
16:40.40mindjujusorry, i'm just guessing you're on mysql 5
16:41.07wpsweird
16:41.08wpsthis time it worked
16:41.13timbalandnice
16:41.15mindjujuwhich one?
16:41.18wpsboth
16:41.27timbalandhmmm
16:41.39wpsrename table database.old_tbl_name to database.new_tbl_name
16:41.40wps…and…
16:41.46timbalandya baby
16:41.50wpsrename table old_tbl_name to new_tbl_name
16:41.59wpsthey both worked
16:42.02wpsnot sure why the second didn't before
16:42.04mindjujucool!
16:42.15mindjujuwhat version of mysql was it?
16:42.18timbalandwere you "in" the DB before?
16:42.27timbalandthat would cause probs w/ your version
16:42.31RedHeronVB is more expensive to maintain, thus the cost of maintenance is higher.
16:42.38wpsI thought I was
16:42.42timbaland*shrug
16:42.43wpsprobably wasn't though
16:42.53RedHeronAre you saying, jsmith, that the cost of Postgre in the long haul is less than MySQL?
16:42.56mindjuju^5 timinator
16:43.17RedHeronConsidering that the lifeblood of business is money, I am still inclined to MySQL.
16:45.24jsmithAnd considering that time and skill are the lifeblood of my career, I'm still inclined to use PostgreSQL.
16:45.42RedHeronAs I said... client perspective.
16:46.59RedHeronTechnical skill is about the last consideration that clients have indicated is important in finding a developer.
16:47.35timbaland^5 mindjuju
16:47.48timbalandsorry mindjuju, I had changed my handle
16:49.12mindjujuno worries, i knew who you were
16:50.45RedHeronClients want to know (in order of importance): short-term cost, interim cost, TCO, ROI, quality of result, quality of service, programmer qualifications and degrees, ability to interact well with others on their team, end result appearance, usability of the code, portability, technical skill of the programmer.
16:51.35RedHeronThat's from market research done in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2004, 2006 and 2007
16:54.13timinatorI disagree w/ RedHeron here..... clients make purchase decisions based off how they will feel by purchasing that product.... period
16:54.44timinatorif they're buying a website, they might want to feel they are looking more professional
16:55.05timinatoror feel that they are well represented to their clients
16:55.21timinatoror they'll feel good cause they'll make more $$
16:55.24timinatorthat's a big one
16:55.33timinatorpeople w/ money want to make more money
16:55.51timinatorand if you're a partner to that goal, you'll close a TON more deals
16:56.39timinatoryour relationship to your client has more to do than what you're offering
16:56.50timinatorand relationship trumps price every time
16:56.53timinator:)
16:57.09RedHerontiminator: The market research I'm pointing to is based on a national study.
16:58.19RedHerontiminator: The points you made are valid, but aren't necessarily covered in the study.
16:58.24timinatorthe best research can only be based off of facts..... stats if you will.....
16:59.09timinatorif you make a purchase where you don't trust the guy on the other side of the table, then you base your decision on facts such as what you described
16:59.30RedHeronTrust is earned.
16:59.38timinatorif you trust the guy, and he's going to make you feel good and make you money, you don't consult anyone else
16:59.39timinatoryep
16:59.42timinatoryeppers
16:59.55timinatorbut that should be your goal, not keeping short-term cost down
17:00.14RedHeronI'll agree that trust is important, but what happens after you leave?
17:00.40mindjujuugh, i just finished accidentally sending off my entire draft folder
17:00.47mindjujuhad about 10 incomplete emails in it
17:00.50RedHeronYou need to be thinking about the end of the relationship, and how they're going to react to another developer walking in and saying "this is all wrong" or some other such nonsense.
17:01.10timinatorif you're trusted, you'll get all their business
17:01.21RedHerontiminator: Even trust doesn't trump cost.
17:01.32timinatorI disagree
17:01.33mindjujuyeah, fortunately, most of them just had notes about what the email should say
17:01.34RedHeronIf they don't *have* the money, you're out of a job.
17:01.35timinator:)
17:01.47timinatorthat's why you find guys w/ money
17:01.52timinatorthat's an earlier rule
17:01.59mindjujubut you're right mgeary, now i've got to clarify the email and explain what the email was going to say
17:02.08timinatorbefore you get to the point where you're offering your services and building trust
17:02.36timinator:)
17:02.36RedHeronThe clients I service tend to be just starting out anyway.
17:02.59timinatorso is timinator
17:03.04RedHeronOh?
17:03.14timinatoryeppers
17:03.30RedHeronWhat methodology do you use to construct a business model?
17:03.48timinatorI make them money
17:03.51RedHeronBah.
17:03.52timinatorand they love me for it
17:03.59RedHeronMethodology, man!
17:04.07RedHeronNot "result".
17:04.09timinatorjust had 2 clients tell ME that I should be charging more
17:04.18RedHeronI get told that all the time.
17:04.27RedHeronIt's part of being good at what you do.
17:05.48RedHeronI set them up with business and marketing plans, seed capital, market research plans, startup capital, and commercial floor loans.
17:06.09RedHeronAt the "seed capital" phase, we get a web site.
17:06.28RedHeronThat's small business DEVELOPMENT.
17:07.50RedHeronI tend to use an Athenian methodology with some leanings toward Apollonian  and Dyonisian concepts.
17:08.03RedHeronI never, ever, ever let them use Zues.
17:08.05RedHeronZeus*
17:08.46timinatormy mistake, I don't do what you do
17:08.47RedHeronThose methodologies are old, but they're very workable for explaining to clients how management styles can help their business.
17:11.32RedHeronAnd that's why I know the stats that I do, and why I suggest MySQL to the "just starting out" people who actually have money... because at the end of our relationship (which does happen from time to time), they have to find someone to replace me.
17:11.52RedHeronBut more often than not, they come back after seeing that I'm actually their best option.
17:12.17RedHeronSo when they end the relationship, it's no hard feelings.
17:13.16RedHeronWhen it's time to upgrade their web site, THEN we upgrade the database.
17:13.50RedHeronAnd I warn them about the difficulties in finding a programmer to do it, but that it's well worth the price for the added security and functionality.
17:14.27RedHeronThat's how we build Postgre into something good, because it's "more professional".
17:14.41RedHeronIf a client earns more than $1,000,000 in a year, it's time to up to Oracle.
17:14.57RedHeronBut that generally won't happen with most small businesses.
17:16.16timinatorokay.... but what I said still stands
17:16.53timinatoryou're simply in a different boat because you build a relationship w/ personA, who gets personB to sign the check
17:17.14timinatorbut for anyone who works with a client that happens to be personA and personB
17:17.21timinatorthen what I said still stands
17:17.25RedHeronI build relationships with both, usually.
17:17.27timinator*shrug
17:17.57timinatorthen why don't you build your systems so that they're scalable?
17:18.25timinatorif dude's trying to make a million, and you know that he'll need PGSQL at that time, why sell him something else?
17:18.34timinatorI've got a PG guy if you need one man
17:18.36timinator:)
17:18.50timinatorI know a few in fact
17:18.51timinator:)
17:19.05RedHeronYet.
17:19.30RedHeronThe word "scalable" doesn't have a lot of meaning to most clients.
17:20.33RedHeronThey want something that works quickly and works now... they don't necessarily need high levels of security or functionality on their sites, because the back-end stuff generally doesn't really get seen by end users, who blame the internet for delays, rather than the database.
17:20.50RedHeronMySQL is the "quick and dirty" option that appeals to most.
17:21.16RedHeronappeals to *them* most ...
17:22.02RedHeronWhen they need a new site, they generally need a new database anyway, though they want to keep their data. Conversion is easy.
17:23.37RedHeronThe specifics of what I do for them change every job, but that's the general gist.
17:24.02RedHeronAnd for a few clients, I have recommended Postgre starting out, because they *did* need the functionality and security.
17:24.28RedHeronEspecially financially-oriented and security-oriented small businesses.
17:26.08timinatormy points have been lost, and I've only created another DB flame war..... good going timinator
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17:30.18jsmithRedHeron: Don't get me started on phones...
17:31.15RedHeronjsmith: Well, if I'd had my call on time, I'd be too busy to flame about DB's.
17:31.46RedHeronThat's all I have to say about phones... if they work, they work; and if they don't they don't. Anything else is personal preference.
17:32.56jsmithYou probably wouldn't enjoy the simple fact that my phone system is partially powered by PostgreSQL either...
17:33.22timinatorjsmith: LMAO
17:34.31jsmithAh, it's so much fun to be in the IT field these days...
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17:42.30timinatorya, baby!!!
17:45.47RedHeronAh hah! Phone call-ness!
17:49.38oldshow long does it typically take you guys to fill an empty programmer position? We're going to need some help soon but we're unsure of when we should start interviewing.
17:50.06oldsdon't know why I said 'empty'.... sounds weird
17:52.43jsmith-luncholds: Depends on the level of programmer... entry level, I plan a month.  A real good programmer, I plan on six months or more.
17:55.03RedHeronolds: I tend to agree with jsmith-lunch, on the basis that the good ones typically have less available time.
17:55.32influx^^I have quite a bit of available time, but I'm an awful awful awful programmer.
17:55.35influx^^;D
17:59.07mgearyhey, can someone remind me of the subquery syntax that essentially let's you emulate a GROUP BY, but while controlling the sort order (so you get, for example, the latest entry as your returned row)
18:01.26RedHeroninflux^^: or you're so good that noboy can afford you?
18:04.21influx^^That could be.
18:04.29*** join/#uphpu josephscott__lap (n=josephsc@71-38-59-157.tcsn.qwest.net)
18:04.33influx^^I'm waiting for Apple to call me for a programming job.
18:04.46influx^^I haven't sent in my resume, but I'm a pretty big name.
18:07.58oldsheh
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18:14.06SunSparcinflux^^: Good luck with that.
18:18.31RedHeronIf you need any clarification, brasto, feel free to PM.
18:19.09brastoI have a small startup business.
18:19.41brastoAs soon as I get my existing clients all happy with their websites and email where they want them, I'll look to advertise some.
18:21.16brastosounds good.  my next priority will be to get my business' website up ;)
18:21.46brastosince it's a web and email hosting business, it should have it's own website, but I had some clients before I expected to.
18:22.14RedHeronCustom software, or package?
18:22.41RedHeron(since I assume you're writing it yourself, that's NOT a part of the price).
18:23.33brastoI've used Drupal for most sites.  I'm building my own code for my portfolio site, http://mscis.org, and see my uphpu email about zencart - I'm using that for my one ecommerce customer.
18:24.32RedHeronSo long as you close the holes in Drupal, it's not a bad CMS.
18:24.54RedHeronI've never actually used zencart.
18:25.04RedHeronBut what are you using for the email hosting system?
18:29.14RedHeronqmail ... bluesquirrel ... dovecot ...?
18:30.08RedHeronAnd don't tell me Drupal for the email hosting, since that's not really a server.
18:33.17timinatorhe's using carrier pigeons
18:35.07RedHeronmgeary: I tell my clients to use Google's small business email hosting.
18:35.22mgearyalso a good approach
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18:52.48mindjujumy IT department and I are having a war here about the performance difference of 32bit v 64bit processors - specifically is dual core more or less powerful, or the same as 64 bit
18:52.57beandogwell
18:52.59beandogits very simple
18:53.05beandogthe nintendo 64 > NES
18:53.06mindjujui'm arguing that dual core in a 32bit environ runs faster
18:53.09beandogduh.
18:53.27mindjujuand that apps have to be specially built to utilize 64bit
18:53.43mindjujuand if apps aren't, they aren't utilizing the full 64bit, and thus not effective
18:56.49tierrawell, I don't know about specifically with dual core vs single, but yes, 32bit apps actually run slightly slower on 64bit operating systems
18:57.20beandogpersonally I think the difference is so marginal that it doesnt matter in the slightest.
18:57.54tierrabut if an app is compiled specifically for 64bit (i.e. the compiler is taking advantage of the new instruction set), it can be faster than the 32bit version running on a 32bit os
18:58.16tierraand overall, the difference in both situations is very little
18:59.02beandogunless you get into some realtime operations, then you'd need / want the advantage
18:59.45burninmindjuju, there may only be some truth to your comment that apps have to be specially built to utilize 64bit, but I'd have to dig into the apache/php/openssl code to verify the validity....I can tell you that a 64 bit Fedora server generates high bit count SSL keys much faster than the same hardware with a 32 bit install of Fedora.
19:00.43burninso the question I'd have is whether apache, php, and openssl have #ifdefs specifically for 64 bit to optimize the code when compiling for a 64 bit processor.
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19:01.32burninits possible the optimization takes place in the compiler and the OS rather than how the app was coded.
19:02.17burninthere are likely many operations both math and memory management which can be optimized for 64 bit at the compiler or kernel level rather than in the app itself.
19:03.19burninmindjuju, not saying I disagree with your conclusion, I suspect that a dual core 32bit system will be faster than a 64 bit single core system of similar frequency, pipe size, etc.
19:03.38tierrathis Gentoo Foundation crap is getting ridiculous
19:04.49tierrait's sad watching my favorite distro bitrot because of it
19:05.16burnintierra, time to fork? :)
19:05.54tierraif I knew anything about maintaining a linux distro, sure
19:06.32burninLFS is probably a good start to learning how.
19:06.34beandogpfft, its easy.
19:06.46beandogand its REALLY not a Big Deal(tm) at all.
19:06.47tierraebuilds have turned into a whole new programming language practically, I haven't been able to keep up
19:07.02brastoRedHeron: I use dovecot for mail
19:07.14beandogfor $5.
19:07.22burninlol
19:07.29RedHeronbrasto: hi5
19:07.30beandog:)
19:07.38tierraanyway, it's not about the codebase, it's about the community
19:07.54brastoDoes Google's small business email hosting provide other things like calendaring and tasks?
19:08.06beandogtierra, yah, but whats the problem?
19:08.29beandogI mean honestly, besides communication.
19:08.51brastosolution for mindjuju: dual core 64 bit
19:08.53beandoganyway
19:08.54brastoboth in one
19:08.59beandog:)
19:09.24beandogtierra, its not all that bad, really.
19:09.38beandogin fact, Id say worst case scenario were just overloaded with work
19:09.40tierrawell, portage has been on a downslope for the last 2 years, what used to keep up on the "stable" and "testing" is now behind even Ubuntu, and most portage conflicts are caused by the lack of communication
19:09.59beandogtierra, what arch you running
19:09.59brasto^5 RedHeron
19:10.22tierraamd64 and an i386 box
19:10.47beandogtierra, yah, amd64 is behind ... we need more arch testers
19:11.00beandogThe problem is, there is just an *incredible* amount of work to dow hen its comes to keywording.
19:11.13beandogon average between 50 to 80 bugs a week to take care of
19:11.17beandogfor that alone.  for one arch.
19:11.31beandogwell, that might be a bit high, but it sure seems that way.
19:12.04beandog97 stable requests for amd64 open right now
19:12.18tierrayou'd think 4 years of amd64 would have most of those issues resolved, but if I were to build another amd64 machine, or rebuild this one, I'd go x86 on it
19:12.43beandogtierra, what issues?
19:12.53beandogman power?
19:12.54tierrathe Java situation is ridiculous... Fedora has it figured out, and I think Ubuntu does too, but Gentoo is behind on that
19:13.01beandogwell, java ... :)
19:13.05beandogit deserves its fate.
19:13.44tierrathat's a great mentality, I wish that was enough to make it not matter :)
19:13.54tierraheh
19:15.39beandogheh
19:16.16beandogtierra, not to pick on you or anything, but just because one area is slacking doesnt mean gentoo as a whole is falling apart.
19:16.19burninwhat's wrong with java?
19:16.23beandogit simply means that one team is behind / has manpower issues
19:16.55burninI actually surprised that with java's capabilities we ended up with the Flash garbage as popular as it is.
19:17.01burnins/I/I'm/
19:18.44burnin<EMBED src="cricketchirp.wav" autostart=true loop=false volume=100 hidden=true>
19:19.13timinatorLOL
19:19.42*** join/#uphpu daniels_ (n=daniels@kolob.wingateservices.com)
19:19.46timinator:)
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19:30.27thebigdogwe are getting more a more people in the channel
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19:33.01tierrayeah, who are all these people?! tell them to get out of my channel!
19:33.09*** join/#uphpu knine (n=knine@128.187.198.111)
19:33.19tierra:)
19:33.26mindjujui think the max we've ever had was 38
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19:40.43timinatorthey're all extra comps I have lying around  :)
19:41.06timinatorlet me see if I can get another one running, so we can surpass our record
19:41.29timinator:D
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19:42.21tierrajust one more...
19:42.31*** kick/#uphpu [thebigdog!n=thebigdo@0006yE-Yn.dsl.xmission.com] by bigdog_ut (bigdog_ut)
19:42.36tierradoes it count if fungus is here twice
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19:43.02timinatorfungus: NICE
19:43.06mindjuju39!
19:43.16timinatorWOOHOOO
19:43.18mindjujusomebody should go get dataw0lf from #utah to come in
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19:44.30timinatorchampagne anyone?!?!
19:44.45mindjujui wonder if the world will end and transcend into something else if our channel hits 42?
19:44.53timinatorLOL
19:47.04*** join/#uphpu fungus___ (n=fungus@198-60-81-238.ip.xmission.com)
19:47.36timinatorfungus: I was kidding about the extra comps.... come one now :)
19:47.44funguslol
19:47.49timinatorlol
19:47.58fungusNot only separate comps, but separate networks.
19:48.03timinatordang!!!
19:48.35fungusipv6, work, home, xmission, freeshell
19:48.51timinatordoes that count mindjuju ??
19:48.55mindjujuoh true, didn't notice that they were on different networks
19:48.58timinatorthat should count
19:49.10mindjujuyup, i think officially we are at 40
19:49.10timinatorthat should totally count
19:49.16timinatorwoo hoo
19:49.20SunSparcWow!
19:49.38fungusI think I could pull off one more network.
19:49.40SunSparcjbot, give cookies to everyone
19:49.40jbotACTION gives to everyone to cookies
19:50.54beandogheh
19:53.26mindjujuhey, that's classic late 80's dance music
19:53.29mindjujuit never got finer
19:53.35timinatorfo sho
19:53.48timinatorI was talking of my dancing skillz
19:53.57timinatoror lack thereof
19:54.00timinator:)
19:54.21mindjujudude, i'll play something that'll help you get your groove on
19:58.29timinatordude, I GOT my groove on..... it's just not a pretty sight
19:58.30timinator:)
19:59.04mindjujui need to find a circa 80's DJ to mix my stuff together 80's style.  i still got several vinyl cuts of American Soviets (CCCP) and other good stuff
20:16.30*** join/#uphpu jbot (i=ibot@pdpc/supporter/active/TimRiker/bot/apt)
20:16.30*** topic/#uphpu is Utah PHP Users | uphpu.org
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20:49.46*** join/#uphpu jbot (i=ibot@pdpc/supporter/active/TimRiker/bot/apt)
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20:52.57brasto~uphpu records is 40 people in the chat room
20:52.58jbotokay, brasto
20:53.04brasto~uphpu records
20:53.04jbotmethinks uphpu records is 40 people in the chat room
20:53.43brastofeel free to add your own record info to that factoid at will, #uphpu channel dudes
20:54.56brastoof course replacing info with new info may prove troublesome, but that just makes it more fun for jbot geeks
21:01.48mgearycalling networking gurus
21:02.00jsmithmgeary: What's up?
21:02.12mgearyalright, so we just installed another Xserve over at Fibernet...
21:02.27mgearyand i was under the mistaken impression that they'd just give us another ethernet cable to plug in
21:02.38jsmithOkay...
21:02.43mgearyfortunately, we happened to have a switch handy
21:03.00mgearybut the machine that's currently using the connection can't simply be willy-nilly unplugged
21:03.07mgearyso i've got to get a plan in place to minimize downtime
21:03.37jsmithmgeary: If most of your traffic is TCP, moving it over to the switch shouldn't cause much in the way of problems, as long as it's fast
21:03.38mgearynow, the switch should be pretty "dumb", right? it's not a router, so it's just going to share any incoming connection it receives
21:03.51jsmithYou'll get some re-transmitted packets, but you should be fine.
21:04.12mgearyi'm just trying to map out the actual unplug/plug/plug sequence
21:04.21jsmithmgeary: This is a cheap switch, I'm assuming... nothing fancy as far as blocking unknown MAC addresses, etc., right?
21:04.29mgearyright. just a $50 D-Link
21:04.51jsmithOK, plug power into the switch
21:04.57jsmithPlug the new Xserve into the switch
21:05.00mgearyif i take the cable from the old machine, plug it into the switch, and then plug the old machine into the switch, what re-config is possible or likely?
21:05.11mgearyit should "just work", yes?
21:05.22jsmithShould just work
21:05.28jsmith(assuming static IPs, etc.)
21:05.30mgearyright
21:05.52mgearyand then i can just give my new Xserve one of the static IPs in our reserved block
21:05.55jsmithThe only thing to watch out for is the uplink on the switch... does it have to be in a certain spot?  Is it auto-crossover?
21:06.05mgearycan't tell, which suggests it is
21:06.09mgearyjust ports #1-8
21:06.11jsmithmgeary: That's a good sign ;-)
21:06.17jsmithmgeary: I'd say you're ready to go for it
21:07.53mgearyhah
21:07.56mgearyi wish
21:08.04mgearyi neglected to bring my laptop to fibernet
21:08.07mgearyso i've gotta go back
21:08.12mgearyi'm at the office now
21:08.18mindjujuah
21:08.48mgearymaybe i'll just plug into someone *else's* switch in our rack... ;)
21:09.08mindjujufibernet, is that the one over by dead lobster?
21:09.11mgearyyep
21:09.55mindjujui've heard their colo is really snazzy
21:10.00mindjujui wonder how it compares to xmission?
21:10.23mgearydunno, but we've been satisfied enough
21:10.28mgearyand it's reasonably close to the office
21:10.39jsmithmgeary: You've got another static IP, right?
21:10.44mgearyseveral
21:10.49jsmithJust plug into the switch before you do the big switcheroo!
21:10.50mgeary14 usable, i believe
21:11.14mgearyright. first objective will be to restore the old machine's access
21:11.23mgearysecond objective will be to bring the new machine online w/an IP
21:11.35mindjujuprivate Colocation Suites!
21:11.40jsmithmgeary: Right!
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21:28.30thebigdogcan i say how much i hate windows
21:29.06mindjujuwhat's wrong with windows
21:29.44optikalI hate windows too... Always let too much sunlight through and not enough of a breeze~
21:30.03mindjujuheh ^5 optikal
21:35.28thebigdoghehe that is the truth
21:36.26timinatorlittle delayed, but:
21:36.34timinator~bevus rack
21:36.57mindjujui wish the whole world "just worked" like my win xp box
21:37.00timinator~beavis rack
21:37.09timinatorhmmph
21:37.18mindjujubeavis requires 2 params
21:37.25mindjuju~beavis var1 var2
21:37.26jbot<beavis>var1 said var2</beavis>
21:37.32timinatorah
21:38.00optikalhehe sorry,. seen the lowercased "windows" both times and couldn't resist :D
21:38.02timinatorwell, now the timing's gone
21:40.46mgeary~lart Network Solutions and their stupid domain forerunning
21:40.46jbotkeeps mailing Network Solutions and their stupid domain forerunning free America Online CDs until he drowns
21:41.07mgearya customer checked a new domain at N.S., and now we can't register it
21:41.16mindjujuyeah, on hold for 4 days
21:41.20mgearymore than that
21:41.31mindjujui hear that ICANN is going to put a stop to it
21:41.36mindjujumore than 4?
21:41.38mindjujuwow!
21:41.41mgearywell, okay, today is the 4th day
21:41.44mgearyseems like longer :)
21:41.45mindjujujust read about it the other day
21:41.57mgearyyeah
21:46.33mindjujui wish AOL would go back to owning and running the interweb
21:48.53funguslol
21:50.25mgearyhey, anyone here have any quick-and-dirty ways to guesstimate based on a site's traffic what it could be worth in terms of advertising revenue?
21:58.02mindjujusorry, don't
21:58.36SunSparcI would just guess that a site with traffic would be worth millions of somethings.
21:59.54mgearynah
22:01.17mindjujui'd prolly be a bit more conservative, so a site like digg worth $330 million.  It prolly has 10 million hits, so since x site only has 10 visits/month prolly only worth $600k
22:02.54optikalThere's some site that will calculate your sites worth, based on search engine results and content... but I can't remember it for the life of me.
22:05.03SunSparcHere are two that a quick google found: http://directory.sootle.com/website-worth/  and  http://www.zytch.com/
22:09.33mgearyhahaha
22:10.06mgearyzytch says that a 728x90 ad on microsoft.com is worth $217k per month. I'm guessing it's much more...
22:10.31mgearysame ad on google is $3.6 mil/month
22:10.53mgearysame ad on uphpu.org is $8/month :D
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22:35.48mindjujuHeath Ledger died
22:35.57olds:(
22:36.02mindjujuhttp://omg.yahoo.com/heath-ledger-found-dead-in-nyc/news/5898
22:36.35oldsmgeary: re how much site's traffic is worth...... it depends
22:36.51mgearyof course. hence the "quick-and-dirty guesstimate" leader
22:36.51oldswe sell advertising on our main domain, but it's to a very specific market
22:36.58oldsso they're willing to pay more
22:37.09oldsbecause it's geared towards a specific industry
22:37.14mgearyobviously ultimately it's worth whatever someone will pay :)
22:38.31oldsI think we make around 7K/month on advertising for about 100K users per month  
22:39.31oldshah, my website is worth $21
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22:53.23timinator:(   ....mine's $4
22:53.29timinatorthat's gotta be the lowest
22:54.44oldsthe banner ad thing was $4 for me
22:54.47timinatorbut zytch.com is only $6 for their own site
22:54.54timinatorya, I think $4 is the minimum
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22:57.25fungusdude, omg, Heath Ledger dead?  bummer
22:58.36dtavarezwhat it zytch.com ?
23:02.54mgearyfungus: really?
23:03.18mgearyah seeing the link now
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23:29.43PoeticIntensitysince about 2 hours ago, bait was laid for a microsoft flame war, I'm protesting that the following link is 100% relative to the current discussion:
23:29.53PoeticIntensityhttp://www.ilovemyjournal.com/?action=personal_entry&eid=3446&user=1
23:35.52SunSparcCome on, PoeticIntensity.  Stop holding back your real opinion on this matter.
23:37.09PoeticIntensityI couldn't resist after reading that article...
23:37.19PoeticIntensityalthough I'm sure all sorts of spinning goes on throughout the reporting process.
23:37.20PoeticIntensityso...
23:37.30PoeticIntensityI thought I'd add my spin as well. :)
23:38.12SunSparcI am sure they are just looking out for their shareholders.
23:38.15SunSparc;)
23:39.48PoeticIntensitybut of course...
23:39.54tierrathey are legally responsible to their shareholders, this is great example of capitalism at work :)
23:39.57PoeticIntensityfriggin' greedballs.
23:42.09PoeticIntensitybeing legally responsible and being greedy to the billionth degree are two separate things, IMO.
23:42.35PoeticIntensityI'm fairly certain if they blew off a few hundred thousand for charity, their shareholders would understand. :)
23:43.15PoeticIntensityThey buy minutes worth of music (Madonna / Rolling Stones) for tens of millions...
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23:51.07SunSparcLooks like thebigdog is having some connection issues.
23:51.37thebigdogtrying to configure xchat on a new box...and it pisses me off cause it needs to restart
23:52.25SunSparchehe
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23:54.40thebigdogthe only cool thing today that i have done is get some new guitar picks
23:54.42thebigdoghehe
23:56.32SunSparcwhat thickness?
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