IRC log for #uphpu on 20071101

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02:25.34mindjuju~seen atoponce
02:25.37jbotatoponce <n=aaron@ubuntu/member/pdpc.supporter.bronze.atoponce> was last seen on IRC in channel #utah, 12h 59m 13s ago, saying: 'why sanskrit?'.
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13:58.58timinatormorning
13:59.09wpsgood night
13:59.23Utah_Davemorning
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14:41.36mindjujupoor wps, i wonder if he did an all nighter?
14:41.49mindjuju~seen atoponce
14:41.53jbotatoponce <n=aaron@ubuntu/member/pdpc.supporter.bronze.atoponce> was last seen on IRC in channel #utah, 1d 1h 15m 29s ago, saying: 'why sanskrit?'.
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14:45.27mindjuju~seen macnewbold
14:45.28jbotmacnewbold <n=mac@cg.dsl.xmission.com> was last seen on IRC in channel #uphpu, 5d 13h 46m 8s ago, saying: 'withholding recommendation or good comments is at least as big a message as saying negative stuff'.
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15:05.50mindjujua day just doesn't start out right without mentadent
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15:16.22mgearymorning all
15:16.46mindjujumorning mgeary
15:18.37orsonjmorning
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15:48.19SunSparchttp://digg.com/movies/GI_Joe_gets_castrated_by_Hasbro
15:54.17mindjujusunsparc, interesting post
15:54.24mindjujui'm reading your entry on ref 1
15:54.55SunSparc:)
15:55.40SunSparcWhat is your stand on Ref 1?
15:56.30mindjujuno way i'm sending my child to a public school.  He started Montessori at the age of 3 (to supplement what he learns at home) and believe it or not, actually loves going to school
15:57.28SunSparcAwesome!
15:57.48SunSparcWherever they can thrive is a good place for them to be.
15:58.06mindjujulove Montessori, they let him focus on what he's interested in, and sprinkle other things in
15:58.06BloodySkullmornin' all...
15:58.44PoeticIntensitydid we all have a great Halloween?
15:58.53SunSparcI have a nephew in Montessori.
15:59.01SunSparcMorning PI
15:59.01mindjujuright now he's doing Art, but for last part of last year and up until about 2 weeks ago, the teacher said he would do nothing but the math stuff
15:59.42mindjujuso Tiff and I supplement with reading at home to help balance out, but it's exactly what i want
16:00.02SunSparcA kid who loves math, that is great!
16:00.30PoeticIntensitysweet!
16:00.35mindjujuthe ref 1 has a lot of comments on it
16:00.55SunSparcI ask my kid what he learns at school and he says he does not learn things at school, he just has fun.  Then he tells me about things that I have even forgotten.
16:01.11mindjuju:)
16:01.20SunSparcYeah, ref 1 seems to be a touchy subject
16:02.07mindjujuit's too bad i'm just seeing your blog now, i would have liked to have answered Ralph's statements from Oct 25
16:02.21mindjujuon distrust of politicians as a rationale to vote against a bill
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16:03.25mindjujulike tyler's comment from 26
16:03.32mindjujurather, i like...
16:04.16PoeticIntensitywhat blog?
16:04.27SunSparcYeah, there have been some good comments on that one.
16:04.40SunSparcPoeticIntensity: http://digg.com/movies/GI_Joe_gets_castrated_by_Hasbro
16:04.53SunSparcOh, well that links to the blog
16:04.54mindjujuPI, here is the one with the comments i'm quoting  http://bluesun7.com/jonathan/?p=66
16:05.02SunSparcYeah, that one
16:05.38SunSparcmindjuju: How would you have responded to Ralph?
16:06.49mindjujuthat one should not stop a bill on the grounds that politicians aren't trustworthy.  They are separate issues.
16:07.06mindjujuif you have bad politicians, vote good ones into office
16:07.43mindjujuyou have 2 negatives if you vote down a good bill, and keep bad politicians in office
16:08.35mindjujumgeary, didn't know you were voting that way
16:08.52mgearywell, you know, with my liberal, anti-Wal-Mart, anti-gun views....
16:09.04mgearys/liberal/"liberal"
16:09.21SunSparcmindjuju:  too true.
16:09.22PoeticIntensityheh....
16:09.22mindjujuwell, i assume you look at all issues individually, not scope wide
16:09.31PoeticIntensitymgeary, you're a liberal?.... or was that sarcastic....?
16:09.49mgearyPoeticIntensity: i'm a democrat Mormon, so do with that what you can...
16:09.59PoeticIntensitywow... very interesting..
16:10.15PoeticIntensityI've never actually met a person with those views....
16:10.22PoeticIntensityWell.. I have.. I just didn't know it. :)
16:10.30mgearyexactly
16:10.37PoeticIntensitywell cool, my friend.
16:10.51mgearySunSparc: the problem with that is that you cannot participate in primaries
16:11.56SunSparcmgeary:  True, but I already could not participate in Democratic primaries, Independent primaries, etc.
16:12.34mgearyi've actually considered switching my registration so i could try to bring the Good Ole Party a bit closer to center by participating in primaries. might still do that
16:12.43mgearychange from within, as it were
16:13.07mgearybut there's too much baggage
16:13.11mindjujuthat assumes your point of view were right
16:13.28mgeary??
16:13.30mindjujubringing something to the center, just so it can be center, is prolly not a good idea
16:13.42mgearyactually, i disagree
16:13.49mindjujuanymore than diluting truth
16:13.53mgearywe need more centrism in this country
16:14.17mgearyway too much extremism going on currently
16:14.43mindjujuk, that's your opinion, but if the repubs want to be polarized, who asked you to fix it as a dem going in disguise ?
16:14.45PoeticIntensityI think most people in this country are already generally centered.
16:14.48mgearyobviously, i feel the mix of Mormonism and the majority of the Democrat platform to be a proper mix
16:15.08mgearymindjuju: the party is defined by it's members, no?
16:15.17PoeticIntensitygood point.
16:15.18mgearythe party doesn't *define* the members
16:15.25mgearyat least, it shouldn't
16:15.33PoeticIntensitybut... the party already has a general definition...
16:15.35mindjujuand you said you filed dem, right?
16:15.38SunSparcmgeary:  I "should not".  But it seems to
16:15.39PoeticIntensityregardless of its members.
16:16.05mgearythat's like people quoting that Ezra Taft Benson quote about how you can't be democrat and a good mormon
16:16.14dataw0lfAnd the only one who went to war in here!
16:16.15dataw0lfFigures...
16:16.17dataw0lf;-)
16:16.34SunSparcMy sister in law is a democrat
16:16.47SunSparcPersonally, I am an American.
16:17.01SunSparcI vote for the people that have America's best interest in mind.
16:17.12SunSparcNot their party's best interest
16:17.24dataw0lf...so who're you voting for?
16:17.25SunSparcIt seems like everyone is just trying to win, just to win.
16:17.32dataw0lfyea, it's called "politics"
16:17.36mindjujusunsparc, concur
16:17.38SunSparcInstead of trying to do what is right for the country
16:18.09SunSparcdataw0lf:  I do not know who I am voting for yet.  The elections are not for another year and I am still researching.
16:18.22dataw0lfSunSparc: it was a rhetorical, sarcastic question
16:18.24SunSparcGot any suggestions?
16:18.31dataw0lfRon Paul
16:18.41mindjujuyeah, was just typing that in, dataw0lf likes ron paul
16:18.57SunSparcI am open to anyone, as long as they do what the people want them to.
16:19.09dataw0lfThe problem with politicians is they split us on non-issues.
16:19.14dataw0lfLike abortion.
16:19.19mgearyagreed
16:19.33mgearyand flag burning
16:19.39SunSparcYeah, government should not be involved in abortion issues.  That is not the place of government
16:19.41dataw0lfYea, no kidding.
16:20.07dataw0lfwell there certainly should be regulations on sensitive health care issues like "abortion".  Just not at the federal level.
16:20.43SunSparcSure, but we as a people should handle that, we should not relegate that to our policitians.
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16:21.36dataw0lfwhat're you, a commie?
16:21.40PoeticIntensity*great* discussion... :)
16:21.43dataw0lfWe need elected officials to represent us.
16:21.51beandogwhat?
16:21.53beandogwhat'd I miss?
16:21.55beandogbah.
16:22.09SunSparcdataw0lf:  Represent us, on things that need representing.  :)
16:22.52SunSparcCommunism has some redeeming characteristics, if implemented properly, which it usually is not.
16:22.57dataw0lfabortion should be a government regulated matter, like most healthcare.  
16:23.05dataw0lfI'm just a pseudo federalist
16:23.21SunSparcHealthcare should be completely privatized.
16:23.28mgearyno
16:23.30mgearyit shouldn't
16:23.31dataw0lfpfffft
16:23.35SunSparchehe
16:23.38dataw0lfman, where is my mom when I need to bring her in here.
16:23.47mgearynext let's privatize all highways and freeways
16:23.50beandogLife would be great if Wal-Mart sold health insurance.
16:23.57SunSparcSounds good
16:24.00SunSparc:)
16:24.06mgeary*if Wal-Mart *provided* health insurance
16:24.11SunSparcbeandog:  yeah for $4/policy
16:24.20beandogtell u whot
16:24.24dataw0lfpeople don't seem to realize that capitalism is a good thing;  UNCHECKED capitalism is a bad thing.
16:24.29mindjujuthat was like a double way hit on mgeary, walmart and privatized health
16:24.33dataw0lfPeople like that don't seem to realize the quandry we're in right now.
16:24.51dataw0lfthe consolidation of major corporations and their unparalleled lobbying in Washington D.C.
16:24.54mgearyone problem with America is that everyone is convinced that they'll be rich someday
16:24.57beandoghear hear, dataw0lf
16:25.22dataw0lfhow about a guy who makes 20k a year doing 10 years for drug possession, while a white collar exec gets 6 months ripping people off for millions of dollars
16:25.30dataw0lfdon't tell me about privatization
16:25.36dataw0lfIt's already almost ruined this country.
16:26.00mindjujuhere i thought we were doing fine until things got a little socialized
16:26.07mindjujulike medicare and the like
16:26.21mindjujuthx a heap bud!
16:26.22dataw0lfFDR did a lot worse than that
16:26.37dataw0lfHe let the floodgates open for corporations to influence politics to an unparalleled degree
16:26.42dataw0lfEisenhower tried to warn ya....
16:26.52mindjujuyeah, MIC
16:26.54SunSparclobbying should be banned
16:27.09cycokilrno way man..
16:27.36beandogagreed
16:27.37dataw0lfit was supposed to be temporary, but the corporations performed a coup while we were preoccupied with WW2
16:27.40beandoglobbying == evil
16:27.50dataw0lflobbying shouldn't be banned.  There are good forms of lobbying
16:27.53beandogthey dont represent the interests of the people
16:27.54dataw0lfAgain, unchecked capitalism
16:28.01beandogcorporate lobbying
16:28.01SunSparceverything was supposed to be "temporary".  (SS)
16:28.02beandogat least.
16:28.04dataw0lfbeandog: You're thinking of corporate lobbying
16:28.05dataw0lfRight.
16:28.12SunSparcyes
16:28.15cycokilri think doing away with all the labor unions would help a lot more than getting rid of lobbying..
16:28.23dataw0lfWell, before banning corporate lobbying, we have to depersonify corporations
16:28.26Utah_DaveCorporations have way too much influence
16:28.28dataw0lfCorporations have more rights then people do
16:28.32SunSparc~lart labor unions
16:28.32jbot--purges labor unions
16:28.36Utah_DaveIt's  "We the PEOPLE"
16:28.48Utah_Davenot "We the Multi-National Corporations"
16:28.56PoeticIntensityheh... Not "We the Microsoft".
16:28.57PoeticIntensity;-)
16:29.11dataw0lfor, "We the Apple"
16:29.12SunSparc"We the Apple"
16:29.15SunSparcdoh!
16:29.16dataw0lf:D
16:29.16PoeticIntensityLOL
16:29.19SunSparc:)
16:29.23beandogoy
16:29.23brastoI believe people should be able to choose the school their children go to, and I believe people can already do that.  I don't know that I support ref 1 because people can choose private schools anyway, and I don't think removing more money from our public schools will help that
16:29.32Utah_DaveI'm pro business, but citizens have rights, not corporations
16:29.38*** topic/#UPHPU by mindjuju -> Utah PHP Users - Serious political discussions abound! All welcome to join the fracas
16:29.40dataw0lfI'm totally pro business.
16:29.46brastomy children go to a public school, I don't like private schools
16:29.53brastomy children get to choose how they dress
16:30.08dataw0lfBut I think people have been tricked with some political sleight of hand that the little man can still come up, and that's what America is all about.
16:30.09*** join/#uphpu cole_joplin (n=cjoplin@gw.helius.com)
16:30.13dataw0lfWhich I'm totally for.
16:30.14cycokilrviva la walmart!
16:30.16dataw0lfBut that isn't the case anymore.
16:30.29PoeticIntensitywhy not, data?
16:30.34PoeticIntensitydataw0lf, that is..
16:30.43PoeticIntensityI might be asking rhetorically, but...
16:30.53PoeticIntensityI personally know of a lot of "little people" who have certainly "come up".
16:31.09dataw0lfPoeticIntensity: Really? When did they hit the ceiling?
16:31.18PoeticIntensityone of em' hasn't...
16:31.29dataw0lfBecause there is a ceiling there for most entrenched business models / products / services
16:31.35dataw0lfNow, tech stuff, we're pretty lucky.
16:31.39PoeticIntensitycurrently he has more than $10M, and 3 years ago, he filed for bankrupcy.
16:31.49dataw0lfThey haven't completely shut us out
16:31.55PoeticIntensityright.
16:32.02dataw0lf$10M in liquid assets?
16:32.06PoeticIntensityyup.
16:32.13dataw0lfWhat does he do?
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16:32.21brastoJohn Pestana, CTO of the place wps works has certainly "gone up"
16:32.23PoeticIntensityhe.... *laughing*.. is a teacher.
16:32.32dataw0lfa teacher of what?
16:32.35PoeticIntensityhe teaches people how to invest.
16:32.38PoeticIntensityin themselves.
16:32.48PoeticIntensitygot a *great* idea and people wanted to learn.
16:33.03PoeticIntensityall in all, I think what you're saying, dataw0lf, is correct...
16:33.15dataw0lfexceptions do not change the rule.
16:33.26PoeticIntensityin order to "come up", you've just gotta be a heckuva lot smarter, more driven, etc...
16:33.36beandogI'd rather watch American Idol
16:33.43PoeticIntensitybut it's getting to the point where you're exactly right, dataw0lf.
16:33.47PoeticIntensityit's beyond normal competition.
16:33.49beandog:)
16:33.51brasto~lart reality tv
16:33.51jbotgives reality tv a good seeing to
16:33.56dataw0lfPoeticIntensity: Indeed.  And that's a problem.
16:34.01PoeticIntensityagreed.
16:34.12PoeticIntensityjust not to the extent that *nobody* can succeed in American anymore.
16:34.19PoeticIntensityAmerican = America
16:34.29cycokilri'd rather watch the girls next door..
16:34.38dataw0lfYes, that's why America isn't *completely* screwed.
16:34.49PoeticIntensitythat's why I still have hope.
16:34.49SunSparcCorporations are still propelled by the people who buy the products.
16:34.59PoeticIntensityyup.
16:35.02SunSparcWe the People still have the power
16:35.06PoeticIntensityto a degree...
16:35.11dataw0lfI don't have hope.  Mine was extinguished when I saw some of the stuff corporations were doing in Iraq.
16:35.12SunSparcWe always have and always will
16:35.13PoeticIntensity.the smart, educated, driven ones do.
16:35.46PoeticIntensitydataw0lf, I believe your hope should die when the government completely gives in to corporations.
16:35.53SunSparcWe just have gotten lazy and we want the government/corporations to do things for us instead of us taking responsibility for how our cities/nation is run.
16:36.10SunSparc:)
16:36.13dataw0lfPoeticIntensity: putting their soldiers on the line for corporate interests?  That seems pretty 'giving in'
16:36.23PoeticIntensity*no* *doubt*
16:36.39PoeticIntensityI completely agree with you, dataw0lf....
16:36.49PoeticIntensityI just believe that not 100% of all politicians are 100% corrupt.
16:36.49beandogPoeticIntensity, I wouldnt say completely, but right now its "majority"
16:36.59beandogRight
16:37.02PoeticIntensityyup... that's true...
16:37.04beandogBut what hope is there when 85% are?
16:37.12dataw0lfall they need is a majority.
16:37.20beandogand brownies
16:37.21PoeticIntensitymove to another country, then.
16:37.28dataw0lfUh, no.
16:37.31PoeticIntensityLOL
16:37.34dataw0lfI'm the biggest patriot you'll ever meet.
16:37.36PoeticIntensity(not you, dataw0lf)
16:37.37dataw0lfso don't patronize me.
16:37.40SunSparcWhile WE still have our guns and our voices we are still in charge.
16:37.43dataw0lfoh
16:37.43cycokilrbiggest parrot mayne
16:37.45PoeticIntensitydataw0lf, that was not for you.
16:37.47PoeticIntensitysorry, bud.
16:37.49cycokilrs/mayne/maybe
16:38.11dataw0lfsorry, I'm getting worked up again.  Need to write some code.
16:38.21cycokilrand be less weird
16:38.24PoeticIntensitybeandog is a bit of a pessimist, and hasn't convinced me he's at all a patriot... so.. I was telling him to move to another country, if all he sees is stuff not worth fighting for.
16:38.24beandogSunSparc, heh
16:38.24dataw0lfNice conversing with you guys, as always.
16:38.41beandogPoeticIntensity, you and your silly conclusions :)
16:38.50mindjujugood talkin' dataw0lf
16:38.50PoeticIntensityhe he hee.
16:39.14beandogLets see, where can I move?
16:39.16beandoghmm
16:39.24PoeticIntensityregardless of political beliefs...... Anyone.... *anyone* who puts their life on the line for MY FREEDOM will be a hero to me.
16:39.25beandogScotland.  It's a cool n ame.
16:40.04SunSparcbeandog: Antarctica is fairly open still.
16:40.25beandogActually its already divided up into territorys that countries have claimed
16:40.42mindjujuand Russia claimed the north pole
16:41.11PoeticIntensitysorry if I offended you, dataw0lf, t'was not my intention.
16:41.17dataw0lfno, no, you didn't
16:41.27dataw0lf(even if that had been directed at me)
16:41.54dataw0lfI come across as a a$$ online sometimes, because my natural argumentative style is to be aggressive and put people on the defensive.
16:42.00dataw0lfwhich, I guess, is being an a$$
16:42.01dataw0lf;-)
16:42.09mindjujunah
16:42.13PoeticIntensitymy bro-in-law is an active marine and through some misunderstanding, I got blamed for not "supporting" him.  I should show you my response.... :)
16:42.20beandogwe enjoy dataw0lf's contributions
16:42.21beandog++
16:42.26PoeticIntensitydataw0lf++
16:42.32mindjuju~hail dataw0lf
16:42.33jbotACTION bows down to dataw0lf and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!"
16:42.39beandog~crown dataw0lf
16:42.39jbotACTION takes the crown and claim Hoorays to the new Queen dataw0lf!
16:42.40*** part/#uphpu cycokilr (n=cycokilr@216.112.116.2.ptr.us.xo.net)
16:42.44beandogLMAO
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16:43.33PoeticIntensityanyway....
16:43.43PoeticIntensityAfter reading up on Ref 1 a bit, I think I'm for it.
16:43.58beandogtraitor!
16:44.01beandogyoure not a patriot!
16:44.01PoeticIntensityfear of losing money always shakes things up a bit...  Keeps people on their toes.
16:44.02beandog:)
16:44.21PoeticIntensitybeandog.  You are a troll.
16:44.29beandogheh
16:44.35PoeticIntensitycase-in-point.
16:44.40beandog;)
16:44.46PoeticIntensitymuch love for ya, bruthuh!
16:44.50beandognothing but
16:45.04beandogI gotta do something while waiting for these silly USB drives to finish writing.
16:45.25beandogits either that or watch the output of top
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16:45.55beandogI heard macnewbold hates America too
16:46.00beandog;)
16:46.05macnewbold~smack beandog
16:46.06jbotACTION smacks beandog upside the head.
16:46.06mindjujuah, macnewbold... i wondered where you'd off to
16:46.07beandogmacnewbold, you missed another great political discussion
16:48.13SunSparcWhat qualifies a political discussion as "great" or not?
16:48.32mindjujuif i was an active participant or not
16:48.43mindjujuif i was, then great, else ...
16:48.54SunSparchehe
16:49.47beandogheh
16:49.50*** part/#uphpu Utah_Dave (n=boucha@72-166-51-162.dia.static.qwest.net)
16:50.04SunSparcThe main reason I am now FOR referendum 1 is because it will give parents a bargaining chip against the education unions.
16:50.55mindjujuwell, that's a good and valid reason.  I'm for it because I pay taxes for education, and I should be able to allocate where I want those taxes to be paid
16:51.16mindjujuif public school, then fine, else, where I designate
16:52.33macnewboldreferendum 1 is a great thing
16:52.37SunSparcmindjuju:  Do you think that it is in the best interest for everyone to help educate all of our children so that our children become better citizens?
16:52.39macnewboldthree cheers for competition
16:53.04SunSparcYes, competition is usually a good thing.  :)
16:53.22PoeticIntensity*fair* competition is a good thing.
16:53.33mindjujuyeah, we all need to pay a base amount into the State to help prolong its existence
16:54.00SunSparcFair is a place for riding roller coasters and petting pigs.
16:54.24SunSparc*troll*troll*
16:54.28SunSparc:)
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16:59.40mindjujunice, DI.fm @euroTrance is playing fresh squeezed techno from Shanghai
16:59.56mindjujujust started, and so far it's nice and smooth
17:00.18mindjujutiminator , you bess hook in
17:02.20Utah_Davemacnewbold: can I PM you?
17:03.24mindjujusunsparc, this channel doesn't seem to be on their page, hang on and i'll get you an IP
17:03.59brastoprivate schools already give you some leverage with pub schools
17:04.49mindjujuSunSparc - http://www.di.fm/mp3/trance.pls
17:04.56SunSparcbrasto: are you experiencing some lag?  That conversation happened about 10 minutes ago.  :)
17:05.35brastoSharon Elementary at first told my wife that they cannot choose favorites and she can't choose a teacher for our oldest son.  My wife told the principle that if they put Hiram in a certain 4th grade teacher's class, she'd pull him out and either home school or put him in a private school.  They said "oh, well then well put him in the other class"...
17:06.03timinatorLOL
17:06.35mindjujudude, i think you'll like
17:06.40brastoSunSparc: I experience work... sometimes I have to work while I'm at work ;)
17:06.46timinatorthat is sweet mindjuju
17:07.03mindjujudude, i'm sayin'
17:07.06SunSparcbrasto: that is just crazy talk  ;)
17:07.30mindjuju~brasto
17:07.31jbotfrom memory, brasto is one cool guy
17:07.46mindjujujbot, brasto is also the Topic Reannimator!
17:07.46jbotmindjuju: okay
17:07.52mindjuju~brasto
17:07.53jbot[brasto] one cool guy, or the Topic Reannimator!
17:08.47timinatorI'm out for a sec guys
17:08.49brasto~brasto is also The GreatWhiteWizard.
17:08.50jbotbrasto: okay
17:08.54brasto~brasto
17:08.55jbotyou are probably one cool guy, or the Topic Reannimator!  The GreatWhiteWizard.
17:09.31brastoso why does jbot sometimes put "or" in there, and sometimes not?
17:10.31SunSparcbrasto: I think parents have a lot of power as it is, without the vouchers.  I think people have just given into the paradigm that they do not have choices.  We have become a people who habitually feel victimized.
17:11.54mindjujuSunsparc, do you want to know the funniest thing about Ref 1?
17:12.22mindjujugo and look at all of the articles, none of them bother to even bring up this most important issue.
17:12.41mindjujuNobody, and i mean nobody, is arguing quality of education between public and private schools.  hands down, everybody knows privates take it.  
17:12.58mindjujuso, whats wrong with wanting to put my money where it is best bang for buck?
17:13.16SunSparcI think people just fear change.
17:13.40mindjujunah, i won't say its fear, i'll say laziness
17:13.47SunSparcStatus Quo is so much more comfortable.
17:13.56SunSparcYes, exactly.
17:14.12mindjujuwhy is it that many schools are pulling laptops OUT , when freakin' MIT wants third world countries to learn with them?
17:14.27SunSparcBut at the same time, who is funding all the anti-referendum 1 propaganda?
17:14.53mindjujuare you saying, some dude in Cambodia is going to learn with a laptop @ freakin' $200 bones a laptop, and here I can't even get my teacher to add it to the curriculum
17:14.59SunSparcMy kids have been using computers since they could sit up.
17:15.51SunSparcmindjuju: Did you read that comment about the school taking away the computers that a teacher herself paid for and brought in for her students because it was not "fair"?
17:16.14mindjujui actually did read that, insane
17:16.43SunSparcThe teachers that are good are hindered.
17:16.45mindjujuthat PTA lady really chaps my hide with that commercial about , let's get together and fix the problems with the public schools, together.  FREAK!  fix it on your own time and with your kids lady.  don't ask me to send my child to a broken school
17:17.08brastoI'd argue that at least not all private schools are as good as public.
17:17.17brastopublic schools at least have a certification system
17:17.30brastonothing monitors what or how private schools teach
17:17.30mindjujuk, like which
17:18.00mindjujuand when stats come out that say 60% of high schoolers actually graduate, that indicates a huge prob
17:18.18mindjujuk, def for quality of school is not national, but international
17:18.28mindjujuwhere we rank 16th in the world with our quality of education
17:18.56SunSparcI think most people all want the same thing.  They just communicate it differently and are mis-understood.
17:19.25SunSparcmindjuju: by the way, this trance station ROCKS!
17:19.28brastopublic schools have a minimum standard they must meet, they must teach certain topics, and must have students show a certain level of proficiency to be a certified public school
17:19.33mindjujuyup!
17:19.35brastonothing certifies private schools
17:19.42beandogI tend to think that some problems also stem from the fact that this country is so freaking large.
17:19.45mindjujubrasto, guess again
17:19.47brastoyes, many may well be better than public schools
17:19.49beandogits harder to a get a group to agree.
17:19.55mindjujupublic schools teach only to the tests
17:20.00beandogmost countries are pretty small and compact
17:20.02mindjujuand after the tests, they coast
17:20.15mindjujuseveral articles recently published in the trib speak to it
17:20.18beandogSunSparc, but everyone ignores w3c
17:20.18brastobut the tests are a way of measuring what children have learned
17:20.27mindjujuguess again
17:20.28beandogwell, the everyone with  majority of market penetration
17:20.31SunSparcbeandog: hehe, except the GOOD browsers.
17:20.34mindjujupreparing for a test is not learning
17:20.34beandog;)
17:20.42mindjujuit cramming
17:21.00brastoI define cramming as learning for a test at the last minute
17:21.17brastoif I prepare for a test, I don't do it at the last minute
17:21.38SunSparcmindjuju: I agree, everyone tests differently.  A genius could flunk a test and a moron could pass it if the knew how to test well.
17:21.38brastoI do it with the intent to keep the material in my head, but I'm still preparing for a test, and I'm not cramming
17:21.55mindjujubrasto, if that's your interp of education, that's fine
17:22.01brastothat's the way they measure everything in any school I've ever gone to
17:22.03mindjujubut i want my child to understand the why
17:22.04brastothey all have tests
17:22.07SunSparcHow much does anyone remember of the tests they crammed for in school?
17:22.19brastoI want to understand why also
17:22.25mindjujunot with cramming
17:22.26brastoand I want my children to
17:22.34mindjujutoo different types of ed
17:22.43mindjujuone is just to pass a test, one is too live and excel
17:22.52brastoright, I don't want to cram, I want to prepare for a test, and know the material, and know why, but not do it at the last minute
17:23.29mindjujuyour position is changing
17:23.35mindjujua minute ago you said cramming good
17:24.26brastono, I said preparing for a test is good, but not cramming... I don't think all test preparing is cramming.  I think it's only cramming if they prepare as little as possible at the last minute
17:25.32mindjujuk, and what i'm saying is that the whole educational model right now is preparing for the test.  it isn't to learn the whys of things, just to prepare for a test
17:25.45brastoit's parental involvement that makes or breaks the public school system
17:25.45mindjujuand after they take the test, everybody relaxes from April until June
17:25.48mindjujuthat is bad
17:25.48SunSparcPreparing for a test = Doing the work which causes you to learn the subject.
17:26.20mindjujuAt one point, going to school wasn't even about a career, it was to learn to learn
17:26.29mindjujuwe've warped and education now means a trade
17:26.47mindjujuwhen will people understand that once you learn how to learn, you can piratically do anything you want
17:27.05mindjujuwithin reason, talent accounting for part, of course
17:27.10SunSparcagreed
17:28.00SunSparcWe need to learn how to question everything, critical thinking.
17:28.11brastoone annoying thing about our public school:  when I went to Elementary school, I never brought home homework
17:28.17brastohomework started in jr high
17:28.34brastoour elementary school sends bucketloads of homework home with my kids
17:28.59SunSparcIs that good or bad?
17:29.06*** part/#uphpu cole_joplin (n=cjoplin@gw.helius.com)
17:29.13brastoI got good grades and did well in jr high and high school, and college.  I didn't need elementary school homework.
17:29.29brastoit's annoying, but I'm not sure if it's good or bad
17:29.43brastoI think they do it to get parents involved more than they used to be
17:29.48brastothat part's good
17:30.04SunSparcLet parents go to school with the kids and help out.
17:30.13brastobut I remember I didn't need that much grade school homework
17:30.30brastoand sometimes, it's a bother to do it...
17:30.47SunSparcI know some families that home school their kids.  School for them is 4 hours a day and then they are done and they out test any public or private school kids.
17:30.49mindjujueven though we hit it in the first couple of months, my son's school has compulsory parental involvement time
17:30.55mindjuju20hrs
17:31.20brastointeresting
17:31.29mindjujuSunSparc - have a friend like that
17:31.39mindjujubrain like a sponge
17:31.41SunSparcMy kid is in a charter school and they require parents to also be involved a certain amount of time.
17:31.53SunSparcmindjuju: exactly, can only hold so much.
17:31.53mindjuju^5 SunSparc
17:31.59SunSparc:)
17:32.11mindjujui do pro bono on the school website
17:32.15mindjujuTiff goes in and reads
17:32.36SunSparcDitto, I host the school web site for free.
17:32.58mindjujubrasto, i don't mean to knock ya down bro.  sorry if my arguments come on a bit strong.
17:33.28brastono worries mindjuju
17:33.31mindjujui just feel really let down by my personal education, always having to supplement what i learned with going to the library and learning on my own.  don't want my child to have to figth to learn
17:34.26brastoI agree with that mindjuju
17:34.48brastoif I had that experience with public schools, I may well feel the same as you do
17:35.57brastoas it is, I don't think we completely disagree - we agree at least that public school isn't enough by itself.
17:36.12mindjujutrue that
17:37.41brastoI remember not accepting certain things they taught:  e.g.: the atom.  When they said the atom is spherical, but nobody's ever seen an atom, I said "so, how do you know it's spherical?"
17:38.08brastoI said that until I finally got a satisfactory answer.
17:38.16brastoI teach my children to think the same
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18:31.31PoeticIntensityok..... I just blogged about my freaking awesome experience last night.
18:31.36PoeticIntensityHad a great time scaring teen-agers.
18:31.37PoeticIntensity:)
18:31.42PoeticIntensityhttp://www.ilovemyjournal.com/?action=personal_entry&eid=3302
18:36.08mindjujusure wish i could read it
18:36.13mindjujubut, alas, no password
18:36.17PoeticIntensityah, freak.
18:36.24PoeticIntensityI have *no* idea why that happens to some people.
18:36.36PoeticIntensityhttp://www.ilovemyjournal.com/
18:36.39PoeticIntensityfirst entry.
18:36.58PoeticIntensityand... if you look at the URL after clicking on the entry, you'll notice it's identical to the one I pasted...
18:37.03PoeticIntensitynothing fancy...
18:37.06PoeticIntensityI'll have to look at my code.
18:37.40mindjujuyou're prolly setting a session variable in the front door that doesn't get set when you go directly
18:37.51PoeticIntensityno... because it only happens to some people.
18:37.59PoeticIntensity90% of everyone can go straight in.
18:38.16PoeticIntensityyou and one other person seem to consistently get asked for a password....
18:38.29PoeticIntensityI've tested it quite thoroughly with at least 10 people.
18:38.48PoeticIntensityand I wrote the whole site myself, so....  I *know* there isn't anything funky with sessions going on.
18:39.07PoeticIntensityAH!
18:39.09PoeticIntensityHOLD UP!
18:39.12PoeticIntensityI gave you the wrong URL
18:39.20beandogLOL
18:39.23beandogfail
18:39.33PoeticIntensityhttp://www.ilovemyjournal.com/?action=personal_entry&eid=3302&user=1
18:39.36PoeticIntensitythat's the public one.
18:39.41PoeticIntensitysorry 'bout that, mindjuju .
18:39.45mindjujuyeah, that one worked
18:40.03PoeticIntensityI've designed my site to do both public and private entries....
18:40.17PoeticIntensityand the system for detection between the two is...... kinda stupid.
18:40.20PoeticIntensityI've gotta re-write it.
18:40.50PoeticIntensityhindsight is always 20/20 - and that usually sucks.. :)
18:44.05orsonjcool oreo video. I saw a reference to it on tv last night, but hadn't seen the actual yet.
18:45.05orsonjI will most likely homeschool (or some hybrid) my kids.
18:45.50orsonjthe Montessori reference was interesting. I googled it a tiny bit.
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18:51.12orsonjI think structural/process changes in public schools would help more than money.
18:51.24mindjujuorsonj, i love Montessori, but you're right.  you've got to find a system that works with your family and child
18:54.29mindjujumgeary, even though i won't be able to comment much since i'm trying to get things done prior to Guy K @3, you should still say your feeling
18:54.52mgearyin my family growing up we had 6 kids
18:55.51mgearybetween us we have: 2 Harvard degrees, 3 Stanford degrees, 3 MDs, 1 JD
18:56.03mgearywe're all products of the public school system
18:56.26mgearyi've *tried* to find a private school around here that i felt was worth anything. i found nothing
18:57.15mgearyi'm sticking to the public school system. here's one of the biggest problems with encouraging semi-subsidized choices:
18:58.09mgearythe parents who are "hands-on" make a huge difference in education, and not just for their own kids. It's these parents who get removed from the system
18:59.24mgearyif we made a school and only let kids come whose parents didn't or couldn't get engaged, that school would be in dire straits. Encouraging people to take a "me first" attitude has an ever-widening impact that is felt throughout society
18:59.53mindjujubut forcing people to stay isn't the right answer either, is it?  i mean, sure we all want the active parents in our school, so is that a good reason to sink ref 1?  
18:59.58mgearyforcing??
19:00.01mgearywho's forcing?
19:00.07mindjujuby denying choice
19:00.10mgearyhah
19:00.23mgearythis isn't about choice
19:00.32mgearyi really don't believe that it is
19:00.42mindjujuand for you, it may not be
19:00.45mindjujubut for many it is
19:01.24mgearyi look at the people in my area who are supporting prop 1 the fiercest
19:01.32mgearythey are the wealthiest people in the neighborhood.
19:01.47mgearyan extra $3k per year means absolutely nothing to these people
19:01.53mindjujuand they won't get 3k
19:01.57mindjujuthey would get 5c
19:02.14mgearyso we agree then, it's not about choice. at least, not on a practical level
19:02.20mindjujufor me it is
19:02.29mindjujui want to say were i want my tax money spent
19:02.35mindjujui don't think the pub ed is the best solution
19:02.35mgearyso if prop 1 dies, you'll stop sending your kid to Montessori?
19:03.08mindjujuno
19:03.25mgearyso it's not really a choice issue for you.
19:03.31mgearyyou'll still have and use that choice
19:03.47mindjujui'm not sure what you're getting at
19:03.58mindjujuit is choice for me, i'm not sure how we get confused on that point
19:04.13PoeticIntensityhey, mgeary... I'm honestly curious...
19:04.17PoeticIntensityprobably due to my own ignorance...
19:04.18mindjujuand for clarification, ref 1 IS about choice for me, so i'm stating that... clearly
19:04.34PoeticIntensitybut why would hands-on parents leave the public system if ref-1 gets passed?
19:04.54mgearythink of it as a middle-class neighborhood with a lot of up-and-coming people
19:04.59PoeticIntensityk
19:05.15PoeticIntensitysounds a lot like my neighborhood.
19:05.20mgearynow, what happens to that neighborhood as various individuals hit big-time and become financially independent? That's the question
19:05.30mgearyDo these people bail out for the riverbottoms?
19:05.40PoeticIntensityuh... no.
19:05.41mgearyor do they re-invest and re-vitalize their own neighborhood
19:05.52PoeticIntensitywhat...?
19:05.57PoeticIntensitywhat does this have to do with ref-1?
19:06.06mgearysame mentality
19:06.33mgearyif you've got a "screw the neighborhood, i want the best for me" attitude, that neighborhood will (not so slowly) turn to complete crap
19:06.45mgearysame thing with our public schools
19:07.01PoeticIntensityso..... you're saying that if ref-1 gets passed the people.... ah....
19:07.09PoeticIntensitysorry.. .I'm a bit... dense.
19:07.16mgearyfrankly, i think it's a selfishness issue
19:07.23PoeticIntensityhmm....
19:07.25mgearybut that may be because i'm a bleeding heart
19:07.29PoeticIntensitymaybe......
19:07.31PoeticIntensitybut...
19:07.57PoeticIntensityif half of people leave for private schools, as I understand it, then the public school wins on two levels:
19:08.03PoeticIntensity1. Less children per classroom...
19:08.08PoeticIntensity2. More money per child...
19:08.14PoeticIntensityhow is that bad?
19:08.45PoeticIntensityI'm just now trying to form an opinion about the matter, so... I have no passion either way.
19:09.04PoeticIntensitybut, the more I research, the more I can't understand how the vouchers could be a bad thing...
19:09.16PoeticIntensitytrying to get the opposing team's view-point without the passion...
19:09.27PoeticIntensityor.. emotion.... because it usually doesn't make sense.
19:09.40mgearyit's not just about the money, though your 2 points are kind of verbatim from the Pro-1 camp...
19:09.50mgearyit's about taking involved families out of the public system
19:10.15PoeticIntensitywhy aren't the involved families already out of the public system?
19:10.23PoeticIntensitywhat keeps them there?
19:10.31PoeticIntensityor... why should they leave?
19:10.35mgearymany are. charter schools have given normal schools a beating
19:10.48PoeticIntensityI can see that.
19:11.04PoeticIntensityand.... how.... is that... bad?
19:11.45mgearybecause when all of the people who can afford to leave the middle class neighborhood do, what's left is something that has a larger negative impact than just that felt by the people who are left
19:12.15PoeticIntensityok...
19:12.23beandoghuh?
19:12.32PoeticIntensitylike... the troubled kids?  and parents who don't give a flip?
19:12.48PoeticIntensity(just makin' sure I'm following ya)
19:12.49mgearyyes, and people who would have benefited from having a more supportive environment around them
19:13.01PoeticIntensityhmmm.....
19:13.03mindjujumgeary, sorry was on the phone.  i don't know a better way to say this, but you should not compel anybody to do anything.  (1:06:50 PM) mgeary: if you've got a "screw the neighborhood, i want the best for me" attitude, that neighborhood will (not so slowly) turn to complete crap
19:13.04beandogI doubt thered be a mass exodus
19:13.14mindjujunot from a legal standpoint
19:13.20mindjujuit is wrong to do so
19:13.21mgearycompel?
19:13.28mgearywho's compelling anyone?
19:13.31mindjujuyo
19:13.33mindjujusorry, you
19:13.36mindjujuyou are compelling
19:13.44mindjujuby not making an opportunity available you are trying to compel
19:13.45mgearymy arguments are compelling? thanks :)
19:13.48PoeticIntensityc'mon, mindjuju, let's not get a flame-war going...
19:13.54PoeticIntensityI'm honestly interested.
19:13.56mindjujuhe is
19:14.00PoeticIntensityhuh?
19:14.09PoeticIntensitymgeary is just trying to give me his viewpoint.
19:14.14PoeticIntensityat least that's the way I see it.
19:14.31mindjujuPI, i'm not saying he's trying to flame, i'm saying he's trying to compel
19:14.41mindjujucompel people into doing a civic duty in the way he feel is right
19:14.49mindjujui'll butt out though, let ya'll talk
19:14.59PoeticIntensityit's all good...
19:15.18PoeticIntensitymaybe I'm the one who's too ignorant on the issues and should leave ya all to talk about the real issues... :)
19:15.23timinatordoes anyone know how to, in MySQL, ORDER BY a column, but put a column value at the top?
19:15.27timinatorfor example
19:15.27orsonjmgeary: If I understand you, people who take the vouchers and their kids to non-public schools are the same people who are most likely to do good in the public schools they are leaving.
19:15.47PoeticIntensitythat's the way I understand him, too.
19:16.02timinatorfor example:  ORDER BY species="MIXED", species
19:16.03PoeticIntensityI'm just milling it all over in my mind to see if that's what people really would do.
19:16.26PoeticIntensitytiminator, interesting question...  I've never seen syntax like that, though.
19:17.41PoeticIntensityAs the system is, I'm convinced that teachers have no reason to want to do better, other than simple altruism, and the *desire* to really help our kids.
19:18.07PoeticIntensityand quite frankly, there are enough teachers who are just "flying by" and doing what the have to in order to keep their jobs.
19:18.21PoeticIntensityI don't want to have to fix those teachers.
19:18.24PoeticIntensitythat's not my job.
19:18.41PoeticIntensitymy job is to find the best education possible, within my means, for my children.
19:19.08PoeticIntensitymy stance, so far, is that ref-1 will give the public schools a bit of competition..
19:19.09timinatorya, I can't remember where I heard that it could be done.... probably can't
19:19.31PoeticIntensityif they really DO want to keep going and have good parents / kids at their schools....
19:19.36brastoPoeticIntensity: I think I've used an ORDER BY "string" before, but not ORDER BY `field`="string" ...
19:19.40fungustiminator: are you trying to influence the sorting order??
19:19.43timinatortoo bad too... would really like to sort them w/ the Mixed specie on top
19:19.58PoeticIntensitythen they need to compete with schools who are already accomplishing things which draws good parents / children there.
19:20.18timinatorfungus:  yes
19:20.21PoeticIntensityit's not my job to fix the schools.
19:20.33PoeticIntensityit's my job to make sure my kids get the best education - even if that means keeping them home.
19:20.53fungustiminator: When I want to do that, i pull the value out of the table into it's own and join them.
19:20.54brastotiminator, you might be able to do ORDER BY "string", `field`
19:21.13fungusThen I can sort by species.id or species.sort values.
19:21.23timinatorhmmm
19:21.42timinatorsounds good... thx guys
19:21.51brastoyou could also query for just the mixed species, then union the other results below it
19:22.17fungusthat would be the simpler/better way, yes. :)
19:23.06timinatorso, 2 DB queries? then merge the results outside of MySQL?
19:23.07fungusno merge with UNION
19:23.21brastotiminator, not necissarily, UNION is a way to merge the two result sets within MySQL
19:23.49fungusSELECT ... FROM ... WHERE species = "mixed" UNION SELECT ... FROM ... WHERE species <> "mixed" ORDER BY species
19:24.24timinatorI'm doing a JOIN already.... with that freak it out?
19:24.24brastoSELECT * FROM t1 WHERE species="mixed" UNION SELECT * FROM t1 WHERE species != "mixed";
19:24.45fungushttp://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/union.html
19:25.10brastofungus: does ORDER BY reorder the whole thing?
19:25.39fungusThat doc page explains ways to use order by before or after union
19:25.53timinatorcool.... thx guys
19:35.43timinator......that's not working  :(
19:35.55mgearyping thebigdog
19:36.03timinatorprobably can't do that w/ a JOINed statement already, huh?
19:37.35fungusyeah, just pur parentheses around your two seperate statements.
19:38.04fungusThat might make it a bit clearer, as well as force the ORDER BY to apply only to the second statement.
19:43.47timinatorWAA HAA HAA HAA HAA
19:43.54timinatorit workssssss
19:44.37mindjujutiminator, that was a little golum sounding
19:44.48mindjujujust don't start calling the query "my precioussss"
19:45.04timinatoryes.... there was a tad of my golum dialect coming out there
19:45.16timinatorLOL
19:49.20timinatorby the way.... you have to add the parentheses, AND a LIMIT BY for it to recognize the UNION and both ORDER BY sequences.
19:51.21brasto"ah, yes, that's right timinator!"
19:51.26timinatorsure, sure  :)
19:52.09timinatorjk brasto... sheesh!
19:54.20SunSparchttp://www.flixxy.com/animusic-pipe-dream.htm
19:57.26mindjujuk, should be all better, be sure to clear your cache before trying
19:57.53timinatorthat's pretty cool SunSparc
19:58.18SunSparc:)  Yeah, I thought so too.
19:59.36brastoSunSparc: that used to be on PBS between shows frequently
19:59.46brastothere's other ones like it that are also cool
20:00.04SunSparcI bet.
20:00.08SunSparcThey are fun to watch
20:01.52orsonjlooks like they are down in price. only $20 now.
20:16.58brastowhat do you use to play quicktime movies/files in Linux?
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20:27.53orsonjtotem (or ffmpeg2theora)
20:31.01SunSparcI used to mess around with them in Crossover Office, but it has been a while.
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21:00.38brastoCrossover Office?
21:00.45brasto~wiki Crossover Office
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21:03.06brastocool
21:03.12wps~ravish pickles
21:03.13jbotACTION seizes and carries pickles away by force to rape, violate, and to overwhelm with emotion.
21:03.31timinatorLOL
21:03.49wpswhoa… that's a little much
21:04.16wpsjbot, no ravish I was just looking for the overwhelm with emotion part
21:05.16mgeary~ping thebigdog
21:05.17jbotpong thebigdog
21:05.29timinatorwhat the..... this sandwich tastes like chocolate shake!!!
21:05.58thebigdogmgeary, yes
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21:11.24SunSparcbrasto:  CodeWeavers Crossover office is an implementation of Wine, which, by the way, is not an emulator.
21:12.04timinatorI was not impressed with wine.
21:12.21SunSparc:)
21:12.40SunSparcNor was I, that is why I switched to Mac OS X.
21:13.17timinatorLOL... true that
21:13.54SunSparc:)
21:16.22beandogCrossover Office rawks
21:16.31beandogspendy, but worth it.
21:16.49SunSparcYeah, it was not too bad.  I had some Windoze apps running in it for a while.
21:17.16SunSparcDefinitely worth it, if you need apps that can run in it.
21:21.19thebigdogcrossover is nice
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23:03.12mgeary~rlart
23:03.13jbotmakes a balloon animal out of gibba[w]
23:10.10timinatorlater guys... I
23:10.13timinatorI'm out
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23:16.32thebigdogman i get more spam from employees then i do from outside the company
23:21.10SunSparclater everyone

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