| 00:00.06 | mindjuju | k, so here is a question. I have clients who routinely upload files ranging from 5mb - 100mb |
| 00:00.17 | mindjuju | i've got to be maximum firewall friendly |
| 00:00.22 | mindjuju | so can't use FTP |
| 00:00.50 | mindjuju | while we are a CF shop, i think what i'm going to do is devote a server to manage all these files and uploads and handle the whole works in php |
| 00:01.12 | mindjuju | any thoughts or feedback on this so far? |
| 00:04.05 | Utah_Dave | make'em use winscp and upload them by ssh |
| 00:05.04 | bradym | yeah, i agree with Utah_Dave -- but if you have to do it via web, get some kind of upload meter going to let people know that something is happening while they wait for the upload to finish |
| 00:05.42 | Utah_Dave | I don't think you can upload 100mb files via a web page very reliably |
| 00:05.46 | mindjuju | hmmm... a load meter |
| 00:05.58 | mindjuju | yeah, we are having issues right now |
| 00:06.11 | mindjuju | part of the reason i want to offload from the web server |
| 00:25.17 | mindjuju | darn that utah dave! |
| 00:25.30 | mindjuju | i ask for a non-FTP solution, and he gives me an FTP solution! |
| 00:25.33 | mindjuju | what a nerd! |
| 00:25.50 | mindjuju | macnewbold, you around? |
| 00:27.45 | bradym | lol |
| 00:27.55 | bradym | technically, it's not ftp |
| 00:27.56 | mindjuju | heya bradym |
| 00:27.59 | bradym | :P |
| 00:28.00 | mindjuju | it's not? |
| 00:28.01 | bradym | hey |
| 00:28.09 | mindjuju | i'll go back and look at it |
| 00:28.28 | bradym | it's similar, but not exactly the same.. |
| 00:28.43 | bradym | does file transfers, but everything is encrypted so it's more secure |
| 00:29.19 | mindjuju | well, here is the deal |
| 00:29.32 | mindjuju | it has to be maximum firewall friendly |
| 00:29.38 | mindjuju | i can't make the client install anything |
| 00:29.52 | mindjuju | and i need to significantly increase reliability |
| 00:30.10 | bradym | um.. i don't think that's going to be possible with those requirements |
| 00:30.10 | mindjuju | current upload script works about 85% of the time |
| 00:31.01 | mindjuju | i used jupload a long time ago |
| 00:31.27 | mindjuju | and it worked well, but what do you think about using a java applet to handle file transfer? |
| 00:31.49 | bradym | never done it myself, but it may be a step in the right direction |
| 00:32.01 | bradym | then again, i've never had to deal with 100mb file uploads |
| 00:32.39 | bradym | i saw a flash uploader recently that was pretty nice looking, but haven't tried it yet |
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| 00:33.04 | mindjuju | funny you say that, i just heard about a flash uploader that is suppose to be pretty cool |
| 00:34.48 | mindjuju | hmm... just noticed that they added new features to jupload since i last used it. it now allows you to resume a stopped upload |
| 00:34.52 | mindjuju | i wonder how they do that? |
| 00:38.57 | bradym | interesting.. not sure how you do that |
| 00:45.53 | bradym | wish i could find that flash one i saw, but i don't have it in my yahoo bookmarks |
| 00:46.17 | mindjuju | sokay |
| 00:48.20 | bradym | ugh.. firefox is really starting to annoy me |
| 00:48.46 | mindjuju | FF is? |
| 00:49.00 | mindjuju | here i'm jumping to it since IE has started crashing on every page I load |
| 00:49.02 | bradym | yeah, it keeps freezing and crashing on me |
| 00:49.08 | mindjuju | curious |
| 00:50.05 | bradym | if i could get a few of my extensions in Opera, i'd never look back |
| 00:51.00 | bradym | then again, it might be the fact that you can't run extensions in Opera that makes it so snappy |
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| 04:57.14 | mindjuju | anybody around? |
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| 13:47.20 | timinator | morning |
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| 15:17.00 | PoeticIntensity | mornin'. |
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| 15:18.47 | mgeary | morning |
| 15:22.46 | beandog | holars |
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| 15:23.03 | wps | how much should a Senior Software Engineer be paid with twenty-five years of experience doing a J2EE/C++ job be paid? |
| 15:23.24 | mgeary | $45k/year |
| 15:23.32 | wps | s/how much should a Senior Software Engineer be paid with twenty-five years of experience doing a J2EE/C++ job be paid?/how much should a Senior Software Engineer with twenty-five years of experience doing a J2EE/C++ job be paid?/ |
| 15:23.55 | wps | eek |
| 15:23.56 | wps | really? |
| 15:23.59 | mgeary | nah |
| 15:24.07 | wps | you really think that that's all they could get in Utah? |
| 15:24.12 | mgeary | kidding. sheesh |
| 15:24.14 | wps | ah |
| 15:24.51 | PoeticIntensity | I'd say around 100K |
| 15:25.18 | mgeary | well, one issue to consider is that 25 years of experience could be seen as *too much* experience to be willing to pay for |
| 15:25.36 | mgeary | considering that from an employer perspective, someone with, say, 10 years of experience may be just as useful |
| 15:25.39 | mgeary | so it gets tricky |
| 15:26.14 | wps | what if this individual understood that and was willing to take a 10-year-experience pay instead of 25-year-experience pay? |
| 15:26.24 | wps | how much would a 10 year person be worth? |
| 15:26.33 | wps | 80,000? |
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| 15:31.39 | mgeary | i'd say that a senior-level j2ee programmer could expect between 80 & 120 at a large-ish firm in utah |
| 15:33.09 | wps | thanks |
| 15:38.13 | mgeary | why the question? I assume the programmer in question isn't you, wps? |
| 15:38.20 | wps | for my father |
| 15:38.43 | wps | he's been out of the industry for two years and is trying to get back in and was curious how/if things had changed |
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| 15:39.52 | mgeary | interesting |
| 15:40.11 | mgeary | though i doubt that *any*one really has 25 years of J2EE ;) |
| 15:41.24 | wps | no, 25+ programming |
| 15:41.29 | wps | java is recent |
| 15:42.16 | mgeary | yeah, in any case, good for him |
| 15:42.20 | mgeary | and good luck to him |
| 15:42.27 | wps | no, sucks to be him |
| 15:42.39 | mgeary | has he been retired, or in a different industry? |
| 15:42.45 | wps | has one skill… programming… and since no one will hire him… he's screwed |
| 15:42.53 | wps | age discrimination at it's best |
| 15:43.25 | mgeary | possibly so |
| 15:43.35 | wps | 55 year old programmers have to work at McDonalds just so they can eat |
| 15:43.41 | wps | and good luck getting health insurance |
| 15:43.52 | wps | if you're not on a group plan, you're screwed |
| 15:43.59 | mgeary | true |
| 15:44.24 | wps | Novell kicked him to the curb three years ago after twenty years of loyal service |
| 15:44.30 | mgeary | ouch |
| 15:44.35 | wps | just because he was old |
| 15:45.13 | mgeary | speaking as an employer, it could be hard to consider someone with so much experience because, at least as a (very) small business, we can't pay them what they probably feel they're worth, so you have to worry that they'd always have their ear to the ground looking for something better |
| 15:46.04 | mgeary | i'm just speculating, but if we were looking to hire someone more senior, that'd be one of my concerns |
| 15:46.33 | mgeary | frankly, it's something i worry about for myself in 20 years |
| 15:46.54 | mgeary | which is one reason i'm trying to make it as king of a pond, rather than employee :) |
| 15:47.54 | wps | yeah |
| 15:48.09 | wps | it's just hard because he'd take anything, really |
| 15:48.16 | wps | some health insurance and 40K even |
| 15:48.18 | wps | just something |
| 15:49.02 | mgeary | dang. well, i hope he finds something. that's rough |
| 15:50.14 | mgeary | on another topic, if any of you have boys in the 5-9 years age range, and you haven't already discovered the Lego Star Wars computer games, you've gotta check them out |
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| 16:00.33 | thebigdog | wow |
| 16:01.37 | mgeary | yow |
| 16:19.06 | mgeary | how do i set a umask so it sticks? |
| 16:19.31 | mgeary | i'm pretty inexperienced with umask, but i want to make so that directories and files are 775 by default |
| 16:19.43 | mgeary | instead of 755 |
| 16:20.23 | thebigdog | for which user? |
| 16:20.36 | mgeary | well, ideally for all users in the "staff" group |
| 16:20.54 | thebigdog | then you probably need to set the system default to that |
| 16:21.08 | thebigdog | or have a script due it |
| 16:21.10 | mgeary | and where/how do i do that? |
| 16:22.01 | thebigdog | like in /etc/bashrc |
| 16:22.21 | thebigdog | you can do a check for id range |
| 16:22.34 | thebigdog | or the group and set it there |
| 16:22.47 | mgeary | hrm. but that probably wouldn't take effect for people connecting via, say Apple Filesharing |
| 16:23.09 | mgeary | though it should work for SFTP, wouldn't it? |
| 16:23.10 | thebigdog | depends on how they login |
| 16:23.41 | mgeary | so what do i do in bashrc? just put in "umask 775" ? |
| 16:23.52 | thebigdog | umask 002 |
| 16:24.14 | thebigdog | there might be a place to set it with pam for all your authentication |
| 16:24.28 | thebigdog | its been awhile since ive done pam configuration |
| 16:24.47 | mgeary | well, that works for ssh at least. thanks. That alone will be a big time saver |
| 16:25.26 | thebigdog | also that is only for bash |
| 16:25.29 | mgeary | yeah |
| 16:25.37 | mgeary | but that's the shell everyone here uses |
| 16:25.38 | thebigdog | and they need to have a source of /etc/bashrc in their .bashrc file |
| 16:25.39 | mgeary | at least right now |
| 16:25.59 | thebigdog | sometimes i just edit their .bashrc files and add it there |
| 16:26.14 | mgeary | are you sure about that last one? I don't have that in any of my .bash* files |
| 16:26.17 | thebigdog | there is probably a better way to do it |
| 16:26.18 | mgeary | and it seems to have worked for me |
| 16:26.53 | thebigdog | you might have it in your .bash_profile |
| 16:27.16 | mgeary | nope |
| 16:27.20 | mgeary | i only have a .bash_login file |
| 16:27.24 | mgeary | and there's nothing about it there |
| 16:27.55 | mgeary | anyway, thanks |
| 16:27.55 | thebigdog | well then that is great it is getting called |
| 16:28.01 | mgeary | yep |
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| 17:16.14 | dataw0lf | I'm kinda digging on Symfony |
| 17:17.52 | mgeary | hey |
| 17:18.11 | mgeary | anyone here happen to know what font WinXP uses (by default) in system menus and widgets? |
| 17:21.34 | dataw0lf | Courier New, I think? |
| 17:22.04 | mgeary | really? I didn't think the font they used had serifs |
| 17:22.22 | dataw0lf | oh, I think it's Tahoma |
| 17:22.22 | mgeary | but i'm not looking at winxp so |
| 17:22.36 | mgeary | now that looks more promising |
| 17:22.40 | mgeary | yeah |
| 17:22.45 | mgeary | according to wikipedia, you're right |
| 17:22.46 | mgeary | thanks! |
| 17:22.53 | dataw0lf | word |
| 17:25.02 | Ritter | _psychic_: lol, I didnt know you were part of an Orem shop |
| 17:26.50 | _psychic_ | should I be somewhere else? :) |
| 17:36.36 | dataw0lf | I can think of a couple places.. |
| 17:45.27 | Ritter | _psychic_: its nice to know there are php shops local to me doing things I like doing, cakephp/ajax |
| 17:46.31 | Ritter | you can't afford me mgeary |
| 17:46.34 | Ritter | :p |
| 17:46.54 | mgeary | well true, but that wasn't a condition of your last "nice to know" statement |
| 17:47.11 | Ritter | its nice to know there are others |
| 17:47.16 | _psychic_ | Ritter: where do you work, and who for? |
| 17:47.37 | Ritter | _psychic_: The Daily Herald, try not to laugh |
| 17:48.01 | _psychic_ | Why should I laugh? |
| 17:48.04 | Ritter | I'm a one man development team and sysadmin for a gentoo cluster I built |
| 17:48.08 | _psychic_ | nice |
| 17:48.21 | Ritter | because newspapers refuse to spend the money they make |
| 17:48.47 | Ritter | everything is bargain basement, lowest possible budget |
| 17:49.12 | _psychic_ | I hate that :/ |
| 17:49.21 | Ritter | you'd know what I mean if you've ever been inside .. we have desk from the 70s, seriously .. ugly yellow things |
| 17:49.23 | _psychic_ | we had someone here like that, but he's gone |
| 17:49.29 | _psychic_ | hehe |
| 17:49.34 | _psychic_ | come work over here then |
| 17:50.09 | _psychic_ | please do my job for me now kthxbye |
| 17:50.19 | _psychic_ | *kthxdie |
| 17:50.21 | dataw0lf | oh gosh |
| 17:50.25 | dataw0lf | a mac AND gentoo fan |
| 17:50.37 | Ritter | mgeary: he is trying .. but rumor has it its going to be "more than a 2% raise" which means its going to be b.s. |
| 17:50.43 | mgeary | heh |
| 17:50.52 | _psychic_ | yeah go to #python-fanbois |
| 17:50.55 | _psychic_ | mister |
| 17:51.08 | dataw0lf | I own that channel |
| 17:51.16 | dataw0lf | your IRC cool-o-meter isn't high enough for you to join, however |
| 17:51.25 | Ritter | _psychic_: do you guys do anything with ruby? |
| 17:51.40 | Ritter | I dont know ruby, but I'm thinking I want to |
| 17:51.57 | dataw0lf | learn Python instead |
| 17:51.57 | _psychic_ | I've done some for clients |
| 17:52.03 | _psychic_ | Ritter: but nothing in house in rails |
| 17:52.10 | Ritter | oh man .. you had to go and mention a Mac Book Pro |
| 17:52.12 | _psychic_ | Ritter: Not much of a reason to just yet with cake |
| 17:52.25 | _psychic_ | Ritter: we need another good programmer |
| 17:52.34 | _psychic_ | I can put in a good word for new hardware :) |
| 17:52.41 | Ritter | I'm new to cake .. using it for a TV scheduling app I'm almost done with |
| 17:52.50 | Ritter | I like it pretty well |
| 17:53.32 | _psychic_ | I'm on the dev team, so its easy to get changes made to the core |
| 17:53.36 | _psychic_ | we really like it here |
| 17:53.40 | _psychic_ | it's saved our bacon a few times |
| 17:53.55 | Ritter | its so fast to roll anything out |
| 17:54.14 | Ritter | I do like that about it, now that I understand its structure |
| 17:55.11 | Ritter | the nice thing here has been that my boss and I both play WoW etc |
| 17:55.37 | dataw0lf | CakePHP's file structure is the best of the MVC/Rapid Dev PHP frameworks, definitely |
| 17:55.44 | dataw0lf | Symfony's is terrible |
| 17:56.18 | dataw0lf | CI's is.... decent. |
| 17:56.41 | Ritter | yes, and once I get the time to do a real (better than exists) yahoo-ui helper for cakephp,.. I'll be happy |
| 17:56.57 | _psychic_ | sweet |
| 17:57.03 | _psychic_ | write an article up on the bakery |
| 17:57.18 | _psychic_ | there's only one thing I miss from rails |
| 17:57.22 | _psychic_ | *migrations* |
| 17:57.25 | _psychic_ | we're working on that though |
| 17:57.44 | Ritter | what are migrations? |
| 17:58.10 | _psychic_ | its a way to update your DB schema |
| 17:58.21 | _psychic_ | so instead of writing down changes you've made |
| 17:58.26 | _psychic_ | you commit them in files to SVN |
| 17:58.32 | _psychic_ | then you update your app |
| 17:58.40 | _psychic_ | and the migrate the DB so the schema is current as well |
| 17:58.50 | _psychic_ | you can also use it to add test data, etc. |
| 17:58.54 | _psychic_ | 's real nice |
| 17:59.24 | Ritter | learning hasOne,hasMany,belongsTo, HABTM was a kick to the head for me to finally figure out .. once I did it all makes sense, but being new to cakephp and reading the manual was difficult to grasp |
| 17:59.51 | Ritter | sounds pretty cool |
| 17:59.55 | _psychic_ | the 1.2 manual is much better |
| 17:59.58 | _psychic_ | I'm working on it now |
| 17:59.59 | mgeary | i don't like that the cake screencasts all have no audio |
| 18:00.01 | dataw0lf | _psychic_: Django is working on that right now, I can't wait. |
| 18:00.06 | _psychic_ | mgeary: neither do I :/ |
| 18:00.17 | _psychic_ | dataw0lf: once you've used something like it, its hard to work without it :/ |
| 18:00.22 | dataw0lf | no kidding. |
| 18:01.05 | dataw0lf | I'm using a patched version from Django's SVN that I hacked up, I want to see how the Django devs do it. |
| 18:03.43 | dataw0lf | I like how Symfony has a Yaml config you can edit for fast test data |
| 18:17.54 | PoeticIntensity | alright CSS people.... (wps) I've gotta question... hopefully it's easy. |
| 18:18.05 | PoeticIntensity | within CSS, you can define tags within tags, right? |
| 18:18.12 | PoeticIntensity | well.... can you define tags within a class? |
| 18:18.24 | Ritter | yes or by id |
| 18:18.25 | tierra | I really should just unsubscribe myself from PLUG's list... I want to rip my hair out at how ridiculously stupid most of those people are. |
| 18:18.37 | PoeticIntensity | like..... I want all fieldsets within the "bunkerhill" class to have a certain style. |
| 18:18.53 | PoeticIntensity | Ritter, how would that syntax be? |
| 18:18.55 | dataw0lf | tierra: it's like a car crash; you don't want to look, but, man, you have to |
| 18:19.05 | tierra | dataw0lf: exactly |
| 18:19.14 | wps | .bunkerhill fieldset { color: pink; } |
| 18:19.16 | Ritter | .bunkerhill TABLE, .bunkerhill TD { ... } |
| 18:19.27 | tierra | dataw0lf: have you seen any of their discussion on how all of them hate SPF? |
| 18:19.34 | dataw0lf | heh, yea |
| 18:19.43 | PoeticIntensity | gotcha... |
| 18:19.47 | PoeticIntensity | Ritter, thanks... I'll try that. |
| 18:19.55 | tierra | one person screams fire, and the rest follow because they don't want to look stupid, and they don't understand how it works |
| 18:20.05 | Ritter | FIRE! |
| 18:20.50 | Ritter | hey, that was my fire |
| 18:21.00 | dataw0lf | tierra: yea, that pretty much describes every conversation on that list |
| 18:23.29 | Ritter | I dont really "read" the list .. its too .. hm,.. personally motivated or influenced .. rather than by facts or useable data |
| 18:23.56 | Ritter | but I do like the uphpu-jobs list :) |
| 18:24.13 | dataw0lf | uhm, we're not talking about the UPHPU mailing list, which I think is one of the better lists around. |
| 18:24.18 | dataw0lf | we're talking about PLUG |
| 18:24.41 | tierra | they're the type of people that will base their entire knowledge and opinion on something as stupid as this: http://homepages.tesco.net/J.deBoynePollard/FGA/smtp-spf-is-harmful.html |
| 18:25.03 | dataw0lf | everyone knows that SPF is flawed |
| 18:25.10 | dataw0lf | You just have to weigh pros versus cons |
| 18:25.16 | tierra | I could debunk more than 50% of that article, and I'm not even all that experienced with SPF |
| 18:25.32 | Ritter | right, plug .. thats what I meant .. I just see some of the same peeps on uphpu |
| 18:26.03 | tierra | I also believe that more than 50% of the content out there advising against use of SPF is generated by spam companies |
| 18:26.06 | Ritter | I just skim both lists |
| 18:27.01 | dataw0lf | tierra: there are still limitations to SPF, though |
| 18:27.51 | tierra | a good portion of that article complains about how SPF "poisons" DNS, but SPF uses TXT records, which were reserved for exactly this kind of stuff |
| 18:28.16 | dataw0lf | well, no, TXT records aren't supposed to contain semantics |
| 18:28.32 | dataw0lf | which is why IANA assigned them their own record |
| 18:29.49 | dataw0lf | http://www.rfc-archive.org/getrfc.php?rfc=4408 |
| 18:30.00 | dataw0lf | 3.1.1 |
| 18:30.36 | tierra | well, either way, most of the complaints about it are unfounded because it's there to help combat spam and phishing on an already hugely flawed protocol, and where SMTP is already ridiculously flawed, there's no 'perfect' solution to fixing it |
| 18:30.43 | dataw0lf | oh, I agree |
| 18:30.46 | tierra | it's just there to help, and I personally think it does |
| 18:30.51 | dataw0lf | it definitely does |
| 18:31.00 | dataw0lf | but there are flaws. But saying 'omg don't use SPF' is ridiculous. |
| 18:31.12 | dataw0lf | unless you're willing to come up with a better solution |
| 18:31.18 | Ritter | omg dont use SMTP :) |
| 18:32.30 | tierra | oh yeah, that's the other point I find so ridiculous, you don't _have_ to use SPF if you don't want to, it's not required, and you shouldn't use it if it gets in the way of your mail relay setup for some dumb reason (your setup is probably flawed if you're in this condition anyway) |
| 18:33.12 | tierra | you can also set softfails |
| 18:33.42 | dataw0lf | I just hate every email protocol with a passion |
| 18:33.49 | tierra | same here |
| 18:34.06 | dataw0lf | It's like they're building an extravagant mansion on a rotting wood framework |
| 18:34.10 | dataw0lf | and the mansion smells |
| 18:34.16 | dataw0lf | because it's infested with cats that pee on the floor |
| 18:34.59 | dataw0lf | I don't know many people who'll be like "Hey, let's take this building framework from the TENTH century and make a modern house of it! HUZZAH!" |
| 18:35.03 | dataw0lf | should be the same with internet protocols |
| 18:35.35 | Ritter | dataw0lf: now you are talking |
| 18:36.02 | Ritter | smtp,ftp,http, etc etc .. could use a serious re-invention/modernization |
| 18:36.18 | *** join/#uphpu josephscott (n=josephsc@032-338-782.area1.spcsdns.net) |
| 18:36.59 | dataw0lf | ftp is like the artifact you find in the Roman ruins that calculates the next full moon |
| 18:37.10 | dataw0lf | c'mon, we have WRISTWATCHES now |
| 18:37.15 | dataw0lf | HTTP ain't too bad |
| 18:37.17 | thebigdog | jsmith, you around? |
| 18:40.03 | Ritter | dataw0lf: http is acceptable .. browser compatability would be a dream |
| 18:40.22 | dataw0lf | yea. but that's not really a problem with HTTP itself |
| 18:40.29 | Ritter | agreed |
| 18:41.14 | thebigdog | \q |
| 18:42.03 | Ritter | dataw0lf: https I fear is soon outdated |
| 18:44.17 | gibba[w] | wow |
| 18:45.23 | *** part/#uphpu Ritter (i=ritter@unstoppable.chpass.net) |
| 18:45.23 | *** join/#uphpu Ritter (i=ritter@unstoppable.chpass.net) |
| 18:45.24 | PoeticIntensity | Ritter, thank you. |
| 18:45.27 | dataw0lf | Ritter: how so? |
| 18:45.33 | PoeticIntensity | your CSS suggestion worked perfectly... |
| 18:45.37 | PoeticIntensity | I now have another question.... |
| 18:45.51 | Ritter | dataw0lf: ssl isn't "strong" enough |
| 18:46.00 | Ritter | PoeticIntensity: grats, whats next? |
| 18:46.03 | dataw0lf | PoeticIntensity: no you may not make out with me! |
| 18:46.15 | Ritter | O.O |
| 18:46.21 | PoeticIntensity | heh.... good to have ya back dataw0lf ;-) We'll talk about making-out later. |
| 18:46.24 | PoeticIntensity | anyway... |
| 18:46.28 | Ritter | haha |
| 18:46.32 | mgeary | "which is better-- pear Jelly Bellies or kiwi Jelly Bellies?", now that's a tough question |
| 18:46.32 | PoeticIntensity | with tables, you can make it so text in a left column and text in a right column are vertically aligned... |
| 18:46.59 | PoeticIntensity | how in the world do I do that with CSS? |
| 18:47.14 | PoeticIntensity | I've got say First name : Jason |
| 18:47.23 | PoeticIntensity | Address: 57 Littleville |
| 18:47.25 | wps | where is the text that you are trying to vertical align? |
| 18:47.32 | PoeticIntensity | inside a fieldset. |
| 18:47.37 | wps | is it in a table cell or some other element? |
| 18:47.39 | PoeticIntensity | just basic stuff. |
| 18:47.40 | PoeticIntensity | nope.. |
| 18:47.45 | PoeticIntensity | I'm trying to ween myself from tables. |
| 18:47.54 | PoeticIntensity | unless it would make sense to do it with tables... |
| 18:47.56 | wps | browsers only support vertical align within tables |
| 18:47.59 | PoeticIntensity | I can do it in about 5 seconds with tables. |
| 18:48.00 | dataw0lf | Ritter: Any attacks on SSL aren't going to be on the encryption itself. And you can always raise it. |
| 18:48.10 | PoeticIntensity | well...................... grr.... I'm not explaining myself well. |
| 18:48.28 | Ritter | dataw0lf: only if the browser can support it tho |
| 18:48.48 | PoeticIntensity | In a table, because the cells are all in a row, they are, by default, vertically aligned with each other. |
| 18:49.05 | dataw0lf | which they will |
| 18:49.11 | PoeticIntensity | and the cells themselves create an invisible "horizontal" align as well. |
| 18:49.15 | dataw0lf | this is another client problem; not a problem with the protocol itself |
| 18:49.28 | PoeticIntensity | well.. with CSS, I can't find any way to create the same horizontal alignment. |
| 18:49.35 | dataw0lf | nobody is going to change a protocol because clients are too lazy to match it. |
| 18:49.36 | PoeticIntensity | lemme write a quick example. |
| 18:49.38 | PoeticIntensity | brb |
| 18:49.47 | wps | k |
| 18:49.48 | Ritter | PoeticIntensity: I know what you mean |
| 18:49.55 | PoeticIntensity | http://www.ldscompanion.org/index.php?op=newuser |
| 18:50.02 | PoeticIntensity | see how the fields are all lined up? |
| 18:50.12 | wps | yes |
| 18:50.26 | PoeticIntensity | they're all horizontally aligned and pushed out because of the "password:(again)" field. |
| 18:50.32 | PoeticIntensity | how do I create the same effect with CSS? |
| 18:50.34 | mgeary | you know, that looks an awful lot like tabular data to me... |
| 18:50.40 | wps | personally, I'd use a table for that |
| 18:50.41 | mgeary | TABular data |
| 18:50.46 | Ritter | PoeticIntensity: text-align |
| 18:51.02 | PoeticIntensity | so..... the CSS gurus all agree that tables is a good use for this? |
| 18:51.14 | Ritter | text-align will do horizontal alignments, just not vertical |
| 18:51.15 | wps | sure |
| 18:51.25 | wps | you're putting content in a grid… rows and columns |
| 18:51.27 | Ritter | tables do have their uses |
| 18:51.31 | wps | absolutely |
| 18:51.37 | PoeticIntensity | wow. |
| 18:51.40 | Ritter | just not for entire layouts |
| 18:51.45 | wps | exactly |
| 18:51.48 | PoeticIntensity | and all this time I've been banging my braincells trying to figure out how to do it. |
| 18:51.57 | PoeticIntensity | with CSS. |
| 18:52.11 | PoeticIntensity | okayk.... |
| 18:52.20 | PoeticIntensity | here's to learning new stuff! (cheers!) |
| 18:52.27 | wps | I shake my head because the whole CSS!!!! (insert fireworks and band playing here) thing makes him mad |
| 18:52.42 | PoeticIntensity | eh'? |
| 18:52.43 | mgeary | yep |
| 18:52.49 | mgeary | pragmatism goes a long way |
| 18:52.51 | PoeticIntensity | I just wanna know where the limit is... |
| 18:52.57 | wps | there isn't a limit |
| 18:53.09 | PoeticIntensity | because quite honestly, I've got so good at tables, I can pretty much do anything I need to without ever touching CSS. |
| 18:53.11 | mgeary | 4 hours to do something with CSS versus 30 minutes with a table. hmm. tough decision |
| 18:53.14 | wps | it's not like tables are bad and you need to stop using them for a better, new technology |
| 18:53.26 | PoeticIntensity | well.... |
| 18:53.31 | PoeticIntensity | CSS definitely has its place, too. |
| 18:53.32 | Ritter | PoeticIntensity: if you start nesting tables, you might consider doing it differently, like with css |
| 18:53.33 | wps | you just need to stop using them where they shouldn't be used |
| 18:53.34 | PoeticIntensity | I've just gotta learn it. |
| 18:53.48 | PoeticIntensity | "shouldn't be used" is the key... |
| 18:53.51 | wps | good example… tables should very, very rarely be nested |
| 18:54.01 | PoeticIntensity | I, personally know that I'm limiting myself because I use tables so much. |
| 18:54.09 | PoeticIntensity | Ritter, very good point. |
| 18:54.17 | Ritter | ty |
| 18:54.31 | Ritter | did I lose my +v access? |
| 18:54.43 | wps | example: http://www.doba.com/more |
| 18:54.49 | wps | on that page, there is only one table |
| 18:54.50 | dataw0lf | Ritter: have you identified? |
| 18:54.56 | PoeticIntensity | So..... ....... I hope ya'll see my point. I'm just trying to see how far CSS can go without going extreme... simply because I don't know it very well. |
| 18:54.58 | wps | there is a table of tabular data towards the bottom |
| 18:54.58 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v Ritter] by ChanServ |
| 18:55.05 | Ritter | heh |
| 18:55.23 | Ritter | I had,.. but then switched nicks cuz my primary was taken |
| 18:55.37 | mgeary | wps: there's also an awfully large image with a lot of text on it... |
| 18:56.03 | wps | or this page: http://www.doba.com/catalog |
| 18:56.10 | wps | there is a big table in the middle |
| 18:56.15 | PoeticIntensity | where's wps 's table? |
| 18:56.20 | wps | that is what tables are for… rows and columns |
| 18:56.25 | PoeticIntensity | gotcha. |
| 18:56.27 | wps | but that's it |
| 18:56.28 | PoeticIntensity | this is making more sense. |
| 18:56.38 | wps | don't use them for anything else |
| 18:56.57 | tierra | wps: was it you who worked on design of Doba or someone else in here? |
| 18:57.09 | wps | I designed that, yes |
| 18:57.10 | Ritter | tables are for tabular data, they have a good purpose, just with nesting they got overused imho |
| 18:57.13 | wps | mgeary: what's wrong with text in images? |
| 18:57.21 | mgeary | just ribbing you :) |
| 18:58.04 | tierra | I've really liked a lot of the stuff on Doba, the only small issue I didn't like is that a lot of the typeface in various areas isn't always smooth |
| 18:58.19 | tierra | like the top menu for example |
| 18:58.29 | wps | they type isn't smooth? |
| 18:58.53 | mgeary | i love that top menu |
| 18:58.59 | wps | what do you mean, tierra? |
| 18:59.17 | tierra | as in there's a lot of places it could be rendered a little clearer, it's kinda hard to explain |
| 18:59.39 | tierra | but it's most noticable on thin typefaces like the image on the front page right now |
| 19:00.19 | mgeary | aah, you mean the "with drop ship..."? |
| 19:00.22 | tierra | there's lots of places it looks like the text was rendered without anti-aliasing |
| 19:00.28 | tierra | yeah |
| 19:00.34 | mgeary | yeah, i see what you mean |
| 19:00.37 | dataw0lf | what is doba |
| 19:00.44 | wps | I don't see it |
| 19:00.50 | wps | it all looks nicely anti-aliased to me |
| 19:00.58 | wps | but I am very interested if it looks bad |
| 19:01.05 | mgeary | http://www.doba.com/site/images.4/hero.jpg |
| 19:01.08 | mgeary | not *bad* |
| 19:01.28 | mgeary | but the "d" and "l" and a couple of others have their vertical lines a bit blurry, compared to the "t"s |
| 19:02.03 | mgeary | the "t"s vertical stroke is a solid pixel, the "d"s vertical stroke is being anit-aliased across 2 pixels wide |
| 19:02.03 | wps | well, you're not going to get a font that's that thin any better than that |
| 19:02.07 | mgeary | agreed |
| 19:02.22 | tierra | it's like when you turn off sub-pixel smoothing in linux... |
| 19:02.23 | Ritter | http://www.doba.com/site/images.3/logo_site.gif |
| 19:02.24 | mgeary | single pixels get very tricky |
| 19:03.01 | tierra | and it's always in locations where the text as been rendered to an image and not rendered by the browser |
| 19:03.30 | tierra | yeah, I don't expect small fonts to come out clean, but there's plenty of places where I think it can be improved |
| 19:04.08 | wps | hmm… I don't know of any way to make it better |
| 19:04.21 | wps | but my ears are open if you have suggestions |
| 19:04.59 | tierra | http://www.doba.com/site/images.4/more/a/1.jpg <- not that various vertical lines in "We guarantee.." are 2 pixels wide while others are one |
| 19:05.03 | tierra | *note |
| 19:05.20 | tierra | it just throws it off, and it's very noticable to my eye |
| 19:05.30 | wps | how would you fix that? |
| 19:05.49 | tierra | GIMP and Photoshop have text rendering options you can tweak |
| 19:06.13 | tierra | and both have the ability to really smooth out even the ugly fonts |
| 19:06.27 | tierra | I think even ImageMagick can do it too |
| 19:07.14 | wps | well, this was done in Photoshop with advanced tweaking and I am fairly certain that there is no way to get a font that thin to not have inconsistencies |
| 19:07.50 | wps | if the font's ascender happens to land in a place that straddles two pixels, then there is nothing you can do |
| 19:08.06 | wps | it doesn't matter how advanced your anti-aliasing is, it will still be straddling two pixels |
| 19:08.43 | xilch | wps: if you use a good font with hinting it helps |
| 19:09.07 | tierra | well, I don't see many other sites that do that with similar fonts, and if that's really the case, maybe it's an issue specifically with the font you're using, and you should consider using a different, but similar font |
| 19:09.54 | tierra | yeah, GIMP has options for forced hinting or forced non-hinting, etc... |
| 19:10.43 | xilch | I have never thrown shells from the peanut gallery |
| 19:10.50 | xilch | ...I prefer to use a slingshot |
| 19:10.54 | tierra | hey, I've never had problems getting my text to look clean before, I don't have those kind of problems myself.... I'm just trying to give some opinion and advice |
| 19:11.48 | tierra | and other than the text, I have to give wps some mad props on the rest of the design, because it is really nice... it's just the fonts that bug me |
| 19:11.50 | mgeary | not getting worked up. it's just that wps showed the home page as a good example of how to use tables, and here we all are picking the nits out of his hair. |
| 19:12.24 | wps | 'sal good… if there really is a way for me to improve it, it'd be very interested |
| 19:12.29 | tierra | well, it's just that I've meant to bring it up before, but never remembered until he linked the site again |
| 19:12.30 | wps | I'm just not aware of any way |
| 19:12.56 | tierra | didn't mean to divert the tables discussion |
| 19:13.24 | wps | embarrassed, but I had actually never heard of font hinting |
| 19:13.53 | mgeary | ~group hug |
| 19:13.55 | wps | I don't think that Photoshop has that feature |
| 19:14.02 | tierra | Photoshop probably calls it something else |
| 19:14.12 | tierra | but I don't doubt it has the feature |
| 19:14.53 | wps | it does bother me tierra… quite a bit actually… I just assumed that that was the best that I could get |
| 19:15.01 | tierra | then again, it could be a minor feature that isn't widely used over other font adjustment algorithms |
| 19:15.10 | tierra | I'm not a typography expert or anything |
| 19:16.26 | tierra | wps: if I ever figure out what exactly it is you might be doing wrong, or are missing, I'll be sure to let you know, but it is hard to say what exactly is causing it to do that |
| 19:17.04 | tierra | I don't think it looks all that bad, and it's still plenty readable, it's just something minor |
| 19:25.07 | Utah_Dave | way to go tierra, you hurt wps's feeling! :) |
| 19:25.32 | tierra | heh, I was about to say something along the lines of "you think I offended wps?" |
| 19:33.17 | dataw0lf | WPS YOU SUCK |
| 19:33.40 | dataw0lf | why don't you just cut to the chase, like I did tierra? |
| 19:33.41 | dataw0lf | big meanie |
| 19:33.47 | thebigdog | lol |
| 19:33.51 | thebigdog | ~love dataw0lf |
| 19:33.52 | jbot | If you love dataw0lf so much, why don't you marry it? (oooooh) |
| 19:34.10 | dataw0lf | YES! YES I WILL MARRY YOU BIGDOG! |
| 19:34.28 | thebigdog | damn straight |
| 19:34.39 | thebigdog | ~wake Ritter |
| 19:34.40 | jbot | ACTION throws a barrel-full of ice water on Ritter and shouts "GOOD MORNING!!!!" |
| 19:34.45 | dataw0lf | actually, my new semi-girlfriend is less hairy than you bigdog, sorry, I'm going to have to pass |
| 19:34.58 | thebigdog | i hear ya dataw0lf |
| 19:35.06 | thebigdog | i am pretty hairy |
| 19:35.26 | thebigdog | actually shaved my goat though it was about 4in long from my chin |
| 19:35.34 | thebigdog | wife did not like it...so i understand |
| 19:35.53 | thebigdog | she got pissed when i put it in a ponytail |
| 19:36.06 | dataw0lf | haha |
| 19:37.59 | thebigdog | dataw0lf, you still living/working in the same place? |
| 19:44.24 | *** join/#uphpu mindjuj1 (n=mindjuju@65-121-75-195.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 19:51.50 | *** part/#uphpu mgeary (n=mgeary@166.70.44.49) |
| 19:52.24 | *** join/#uphpu mgeary (n=mgeary@166.70.44.49) |
| 19:52.24 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v mgeary] by ChanServ |
| 19:52.34 | *** mode/#UPHPU [-v mgeary] by thebigdog |
| 19:52.43 | mgeary | *mmpf* |
| 19:53.00 | thebigdog | hahaha |
| 20:01.44 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v mgeary] by thebigdog |
| 20:02.05 | thebigdog | jsmith, when you get a minute i have a question for ya |
| 20:05.41 | jsmith | thebigdog: Go for it... I have two minutes before I have to teach again |
| 20:06.50 | thebigdog | you ever have views with 100000s records? |
| 20:06.55 | thebigdog | in pgsql |
| 20:07.11 | mgeary | ~ping _psychic_ |
| 20:07.15 | jbot | pong _psychic_ |
| 20:07.30 | mgeary | i've got a candidate for ya |
| 20:07.30 | _psychic_ | ACK |
| 20:07.31 | jsmith | thebigdog: No, not quite that big... why? |
| 20:07.37 | _psychic_ | sean? |
| 20:07.47 | mgeary | heh. no. is he applying? |
| 20:07.47 | thebigdog | im just seeing issues with my views with that many |
| 20:07.55 | _psychic_ | mgeary: yeah he emailed me |
| 20:07.56 | thebigdog | data not getting updated fast enough for my queries |
| 20:08.01 | _psychic_ | whatcha got? |
| 20:08.09 | jsmith | thebigdog: Two words... materialized view |
| 20:08.15 | mgeary | should i have him email you his resume? |
| 20:08.23 | _psychic_ | yes please |
| 20:08.28 | thebigdog | jsmith, yeah...im just wondering if i want the hassle |
| 20:08.30 | mgeary | wanna PM me it again? |
| 20:18.01 | PoeticIntensity | man alive! I had no idea that IE was *that bad* at CSS. |
| 20:18.02 | PoeticIntensity | holy cow. |
| 20:18.14 | PoeticIntensity | vertical positioning within a relative position is like.... 10 pixels off between FF and IE. |
| 20:18.46 | PoeticIntensity | unless I'm doing something wrong... |
| 20:18.46 | PoeticIntensity | crimoney. |
| 20:18.46 | PoeticIntensity | now I know why web designers hate IE so bad. |
| 20:18.49 | _psychic_ | hehe |
| 20:18.57 | PoeticIntensity | (I always knew why developers hated IE so bad, but we ain't got nothin' on CSS designers) |
| 20:19.14 | PoeticIntensity | trying to get consistency between the two is like...... insane. |
| 20:20.07 | mindjuj1 | yeah, and neither passes the acid2 test, so now that Safari is on windows and it does pass acid 2 |
| 20:20.11 | mindjuj1 | it's going to be even harder |
| 20:20.53 | PoeticIntensity | I'll worry about that when Safari gets some more marketshare.... yanno? |
| 20:21.01 | PoeticIntensity | I'm all about standards, though. |
| 20:21.33 | mgeary | in my experience, things that look good in Safari almost invariably look good in Firefox |
| 20:22.00 | mgeary | IE is a different story, though the main issue i've had is how IE's support of padding/margin is different that Safari & FF |
| 20:22.52 | PoeticIntensity | M$ has some serious issues with following rules.... If M$ can't *BE* the rule, then they make so everyone is in pain because of it. |
| 20:25.49 | *** join/#uphpu cole_joplin (n=Cole@c-76-27-53-176.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
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| 20:33.08 | mindjuj1 | man, i hate 1024 x 768 |
| 20:33.28 | mindjuj1 | its so freaking small |
| 20:42.11 | Utah_Dave | what's the php array function to add an element to the beginning of an array? |
| 20:42.21 | Utah_Dave | array_push() puts it at the end of the array |
| 20:42.45 | mindjuj1 | array_pop i think |
| 20:43.05 | Utah_Dave | that returns and removes an element |
| 20:44.25 | dataw0lf | array_unshift |
| 20:44.59 | dataw0lf | Utah_Dave: ^^ |
| 20:45.11 | Utah_Dave | bah. I saw that in the list of functions |
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| 20:45.24 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o macnewbol1] by ChanServ |
| 20:45.29 | Utah_Dave | it doesn't seem to be a very accurate description |
| 20:45.34 | Utah_Dave | thanks, dataw0lf |
| 20:45.37 | Utah_Dave | and mindjuj1 |
| 20:45.42 | mindjuj1 | fo sho |
| 20:45.52 | dataw0lf | np |
| 20:46.17 | dataw0lf | Utah_Dave: it's a fairly standard name for adding to the beginning of an array |
| 20:46.54 | Utah_Dave | /me's ignorance shows |
| 20:48.51 | mindjuj1 | ~rlart |
| 20:48.51 | jbot | shoots xilch|w in the head |
| 20:49.01 | mindjuj1 | the fates have spoken |
| 21:00.09 | Utah_Dave | I had to use array_merge() because I'm using an associative array, in this case |
| 21:31.44 | cole_joplin | so has anyone besides me gone to one of Wade's UGAF meetings? |
| 21:32.06 | Utah_Dave | I was planning on going last night, but a family member got sick |
| 21:32.08 | Utah_Dave | how was the meeting? |
| 21:32.20 | cole_joplin | nice, different |
| 21:32.26 | cole_joplin | had a nice dinner |
| 21:32.44 | cole_joplin | it was on letter press |
| 21:33.12 | cole_joplin | Wade was mentioning thoughts about Victor taking over |
| 21:33.23 | mindjuj1 | taking over? |
| 21:33.46 | cole_joplin | being admin, Wade's getting short on time |
| 21:34.02 | cole_joplin | I don't care, don't know if anyone else does |
| 21:34.32 | cole_joplin | but if there's some bloody coup, I hope there are tickets or a cheesy ocumentary |
| 21:35.34 | mindjuj1 | wouldn't want there to be a bloody coup, personally |
| 21:35.38 | cole_joplin | anyway, last night was kinda nice |
| 21:35.54 | mgeary | aww, c'mon mindjuj1, what kind of American are you?? |
| 21:36.15 | mindjuj1 | yeah, you know what they say, having kids softens ya |
| 21:36.41 | cole_joplin | that is so true |
| 21:37.08 | mindjuj1 | heh, personally, i think that has more to do with the IMC |
| 21:37.09 | cole_joplin | alien experiemnets |
| 21:37.46 | mindjuj1 | nah, i think most people on here are asleep right now |
| 21:37.55 | mindjuj1 | i was writing out a PO for an adobe purchase |
| 21:38.10 | cole_joplin | what are you buying? |
| 21:38.39 | mindjuj1 | considering Master Collection, thinking about asking them to start to put money aside for it |
| 21:38.52 | mindjuj1 | not out yet, but hopefully when it is, we'll have enough saved |
| 21:38.53 | dataw0lf | politics? |
| 21:38.58 | thebigdog | oh no |
| 21:39.02 | thebigdog | hes awake |
| 21:39.04 | dataw0lf | :D |
| 21:39.05 | mgeary | doh! |
| 21:39.42 | dataw0lf | actually, I'm not in a Bush bashing mood anymore |
| 21:39.52 | cole_joplin | I ma |
| 21:39.54 | dataw0lf | he's obstructing congress, I'll let fate intervene now. |
| 21:40.07 | dataw0lf | our political system will finally do what it's supposed to |
| 21:40.11 | dataw0lf | ahhh the awesomeness |
| 21:40.21 | dataw0lf | we'll see :) |
| 21:40.38 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o mindjuju] by ChanServ |
| 21:40.43 | dataw0lf | he's hemorraghing most of his support in the Senate with the republicans |
| 21:40.48 | dataw0lf | only a matter of time |
| 21:40.56 | mgeary | yeah, but they won't cop to an impeachment vote |
| 21:41.02 | cole_joplin | the sad part is our enimies don't want to kill him |
| 21:41.16 | dataw0lf | of course they don't |
| 21:41.22 | dataw0lf | why would they want to kill Bush? |
| 21:41.35 | dataw0lf | He's helped them in ways they couldn't have dreamed of before 9/11. |
| 21:42.07 | dataw0lf | welcome to Guatanamo, Cole. |
| 21:42.17 | cole_joplin | lol |
| 21:43.07 | cole_joplin | I clearly stated "enemies" NOT "self" |
| 21:43.24 | dataw0lf | but what if the NSA's parser is broken?! |
| 21:43.29 | mgeary | exactly |
| 21:43.29 | dataw0lf | Probably written in Perl! |
| 21:43.34 | dataw0lf | so they won't be able to fix it! |
| 21:46.14 | *** join/#uphpu josephscott__ (n=josephsc@adsl-71-142-226-89.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net) |
| 21:46.26 | cole_joplin | c'mon guys, everyone knows it's perfect now that's it's rewritten in c# |
| 21:47.13 | dataw0lf | (although I do like C# a bit) |
| 21:48.31 | cole_joplin | I think Java for Dummies was already taken, so they called it C# |
| 21:49.06 | dataw0lf | really? I vastly prefer C# over Java. |
| 21:49.19 | dataw0lf | Isn't Java, Programming for Dummies who Are Too In Love With OOP, anyways? |
| 21:50.00 | thebigdog | dataw0lf, you crack me up |
| 21:50.16 | dataw0lf | ~rimshot |
| 21:50.17 | jbot | ba-dum CHH |
| 21:50.26 | cole_joplin | lol, nice one |
| 21:51.06 | cole_joplin | love and OOPs doesn't sound like a good combination |
| 21:51.38 | dataw0lf | heh, any comment I may have on that isn't family safe |
| 21:52.27 | thebigdog | i feel more and more like google |
| 21:52.40 | dataw0lf | how does Google feel? |
| 21:52.42 | dataw0lf | overtaxed? |
| 21:52.46 | dataw0lf | overused? |
| 21:52.47 | thebigdog | like me |
| 21:52.48 | dataw0lf | dirty? |
| 21:52.59 | dataw0lf | (if Parental Controls are turned off, that is) |
| 21:53.08 | thebigdog | oh so sexy |
| 21:54.02 | thebigdog | im becoming googlified |
| 21:54.37 | bradym | that sounds painful |
| 21:55.20 | dataw0lf | khaaaaaaaaaaaan |
| 21:59.25 | cowboy_from_hell | i think for every album i listen too that will be my nick |
| 21:59.36 | cowboy_from_hell | mindjuju, might have problems with that though |
| 21:59.57 | mindjuju | yeah, i'll send you a spice girls album |
| 22:00.01 | cowboy_from_hell | cause i would lol when he becomes rainbow_boy |
| 22:00.03 | mindjuju | i hear they are reuniting |
| 22:02.02 | mindjuju | k, i'm looking for feedback on this |
| 22:02.22 | mindjuju | i've GOT to allow clients to upload large files to my server. 20mb ~ 100mb |
| 22:02.24 | cowboy_from_hell | k |
| 22:02.26 | mindjuju | i can't install anything |
| 22:02.33 | mindjuju | i can't require it be FTP |
| 22:02.38 | cowboy_from_hell | oh man |
| 22:02.42 | mindjuju | or anything like unto FTP |
| 22:02.47 | cowboy_from_hell | sftp |
| 22:02.48 | mindjuju | so, i'm thinking this http://upload.thinfile.com/resume/ |
| 22:02.55 | mindjuju | no not anything like unto ftp |
| 22:03.14 | cowboy_from_hell | just use webdav |
| 22:03.31 | cowboy_from_hell | and call it good |
| 22:03.43 | cowboy_from_hell | cause all you got is windows users anyways |
| 22:04.01 | cowboy_from_hell | then they can map it as a drive and all is well |
| 22:04.09 | mgeary | mindjuju: use Flash |
| 22:04.13 | cowboy_from_hell | look i got an icon |
| 22:04.15 | mindjuju | k, i'm wiki on the webdav |
| 22:04.33 | mindjuju | we could go flash solution, but how would it be different than thinfile? |
| 22:04.40 | cowboy_from_hell | webdav does versioning...so it might not be good |
| 22:04.49 | mgeary | just reading up on thinfile |
| 22:04.50 | cowboy_from_hell | but it can handle the files and plugs into apache real nice |
| 22:04.53 | mgeary | what does the slicing? |
| 22:05.04 | mindjuju | heck if i know, was going to call and find out |
| 22:05.09 | mindjuju | it is a java applet though |
| 22:05.10 | mgeary | heh |
| 22:05.10 | Ritter | its java |
| 22:05.25 | mgeary | one problem, of course, is that http is teh suck on resources for large uploads |
| 22:05.39 | mgeary | i believe it keeps the entire upload in memory until it's done |
| 22:05.50 | mindjuju | yeah, i'm offloading this task from my web server to a box that just does uploads and downloads |
| 22:06.16 | cowboy_from_hell | applets are nice for that stuff |
| 22:06.17 | mindjuju | so i was thinking of making the box WAMP with thinfile |
| 22:06.25 | mindjuju | still reading on the webdav |
| 22:06.27 | mgeary | mindjuju: why can't you use ftp? |
| 22:06.40 | mgeary | 'cause clients get confused by it? |
| 22:06.57 | mindjuju | because the clients are financial advisors and their IT departments are VERY ANAL about the type of traffic that goes thorugh firewall |
| 22:07.18 | mgeary | so this will be over https? |
| 22:07.25 | mindjuju | yeah |
| 22:08.00 | mgeary | ugh |
| 22:08.19 | mgeary | what about something that could wrap scp? |
| 22:09.09 | mindjuju | thought scp was just for unix? |
| 22:09.16 | bradym | nope |
| 22:09.37 | bradym | good free client for win - http://www.winscp.com/ |
| 22:09.59 | mgeary | bradym: yeah, but you can't wrap that from the browser |
| 22:10.05 | bradym | true |
| 22:10.36 | mindjuju | so, i'm thinking thinfile |
| 22:10.42 | dataw0lf | sure you can |
| 22:11.02 | mgeary | here's one other option-- |
| 22:11.31 | mindjuju | ...the anticipation!... |
| 22:11.44 | mgeary | you could run an FTP server on that dedicated box of yours over a trusted port, and you could use Shockwave to build an in-browser app that FTPs over that port to that server. |
| 22:11.44 | bradym | drum roll... |
| 22:11.46 | cowboy_from_hell | do they want it over https? |
| 22:12.04 | mindjuju | yeah, https |
| 22:12.27 | mindjuju | nope,t hat's going to use port 20, 21 though |
| 22:12.31 | cowboy_from_hell | what does the firewall block going out? |
| 22:12.45 | mindjuju | i can only use 80, 443 |
| 22:13.00 | mgeary | mindjuju: but does the content *have* to be encrypted? |
| 22:13.05 | cowboy_from_hell | now you can run your sshd on your box under those ports too |
| 22:13.07 | cowboy_from_hell | i have done that |
| 22:13.15 | cowboy_from_hell | that is how i got in trouble at my last job |
| 22:13.24 | mgeary | heheh |
| 22:13.30 | mindjuju | yeah, but i can't install stuff on peoples comps |
| 22:13.36 | cowboy_from_hell | webdav |
| 22:13.41 | mindjuju | mgeary, what solution do you have if it doesn't have to be encrypted |
| 22:14.09 | mgeary | what i just said, you could run your FTP server over port 80 and connect to it via *real* ftp from within Shockwave |
| 22:14.53 | thebigdog | did someone say webdav? |
| 22:14.54 | mindjuju | i thought stateful inspection would detect ftp packets over different ports |
| 22:15.07 | mindjuju | yeah, i keep trying to find a page talking about webdav and file transfer |
| 22:15.42 | thebigdog | ~rfc 2291 |
| 22:15.43 | jbot | [rfc 2291] Requirements for a Distributed Authoring and Versioning Protocol for the World Wide We. J. Slein, F. Vitali, E. Whitehead, D. Durand. February 1998. (Format: TXT=44036 bytes) (Status: INFORMATIONAL) |
| 22:15.57 | thebigdog | ~rfc 2518 |
| 22:16.17 | mindjuju | here's where i am so far |
| 22:16.17 | mindjuju | http://www.windowsnetworking.com/articles_tutorials/WebDAV-IIS.html |
| 22:16.18 | thebigdog | ~rfc 3744 |
| 22:17.34 | thebigdog | yeah that will work for ya |
| 22:17.55 | mindjuju | oh, and the various authors of uploaded files have to be kept apart |
| 22:17.57 | thebigdog | its good for stupid users |
| 22:18.08 | mindjuju | so i shouldn't be able to see what thebigdog posted and vise versa |
| 22:18.27 | thebigdog | that is all based on how you set up the dir structure and access via IIS |
| 22:18.43 | mindjuju | hmmm |
| 22:18.56 | thebigdog | you should be able to setup groups and stuff too |
| 22:19.20 | thebigdog | so peps in groups have access to the same files |
| 22:19.51 | mgeary | gotta head out. later folks |
| 22:19.52 | *** part/#uphpu mgeary (n=mgeary@166.70.44.49) |
| 22:19.59 | thebigdog | most windows apps have webdav support too |
| 22:20.10 | thebigdog | we used excel with it alot |
| 22:20.48 | mindjuju | sounds like you have to enable a service for the client to be able to use it |
| 22:21.20 | mindjuju | a service on the client side |
| 22:21.20 | thebigdog | you should not have too |
| 22:21.20 | thebigdog | all they need is url, username and password |
| 22:21.31 | thebigdog | im not sure about IIS |
| 22:21.35 | thebigdog | we set up ours under apache |
| 22:21.41 | thebigdog | linux box |
| 22:22.22 | mindjuju | so, from what i read, webdav is an extension to http/1.1 |
| 22:23.01 | mindjuju | er, never mind, answered my own question |
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| 23:06.27 | timinator | I'm out... later guys |
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