| 00:03.11 | Utah_Dave | I'm trying to change the error reporting in my php.ini |
| 00:03.34 | Utah_Dave | I'm editing the php.ini located where phpinfo() says it's getting it's configuration |
| 00:03.59 | Utah_Dave | and I have "error_reporting = E_ALL & ~E_NOTICE" |
| 00:04.44 | Utah_Dave | but I'm still getting notices. The ones about undefined indexes in arrays is really annoying |
| 00:04.48 | Utah_Dave | any ideas? |
| 00:07.24 | bradym | you don't have error reporting set in an .htaccess or your httpd.conf do you? |
| 00:07.54 | Utah_Dave | hmm, I didn't think so. Let me check |
| 00:09.15 | Utah_Dave | I have no .htaccess files. What should I look for in httpd.conf? |
| 00:11.17 | bradym | php_value - would be inside the <Directory> container |
| 00:12.20 | Utah_Dave | nope, no php_value under any <Directory> either |
| 00:12.40 | Utah_Dave | I'm restarting apache, but it doesn't seem to take effect |
| 00:13.32 | bradym | hmm.. |
| 00:14.36 | Utah_Dave | this is on a windows box for development. Do I need to restart the machine? I've never had this problem before. |
| 00:14.38 | Utah_Dave | :q |
| 00:14.58 | bradym | if you've restarted apache, that *should* be good enough |
| 00:15.18 | bradym | i make changes to the httpd.conf on my windows all the time without having to reboot |
| 00:15.52 | Utah_Dave | I know, this is so weird |
| 00:19.04 | bradym | on a phpinfo() page, do the local value and master value for error_reporting show the same thing? |
| 00:21.57 | Utah_Dave | they're both "6135" |
| 00:23.12 | bradym | hmm.. you're not using the error_reporting() in any of your include files are you? |
| 00:26.27 | Utah_Dave | Ah, that was it. I did a project wide search and found it. |
| 00:26.36 | Utah_Dave | error_reporting(E_ALL) |
| 00:26.45 | bradym | yep, that'll do it :) |
| 00:26.57 | Utah_Dave | I think our other dev slipped that in |
| 00:27.22 | Utah_Dave | thanks for helping me track that down bradym |
| 00:27.43 | bradym | np, i know how annoying that kind of thing can be |
| 00:28.49 | Utah_Dave | yeah, it was driving me nuts. |
| 00:29.07 | Utah_Dave | Why does php throw out those notices when you use an uninitialized variable? |
| 00:29.19 | Utah_Dave | I know other languages require that |
| 00:31.13 | bradym | the reason i've read somewhere (or possibly made up) is that it's good practice to define vars before you use them even though it's not required cause you can possibly end up with funky results if you don't |
| 00:40.10 | jsmith | It's a holdover from the days of global vars |
| 00:40.40 | jsmith | If a user could set any variable to just about any value with the right GET or POST, it was a *bad* idea to use an uninitialized variable |
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| 01:47.38 | Utah_Dave | does anyone have thebigdog's email address? He gave it to me earlier to give him a joost invite and I lost it |
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| 02:07.58 | herlo | does uphpu actually have an official logo? |
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| 14:15.23 | Utah_Dave | thebigdog: can you pm me your email again? I accidentally closed that window last night without copying it down. |
| 14:15.33 | Utah_Dave | I've got your invite ready |
| 14:15.36 | thebigdog | sure |
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| 14:20.01 | timinator | morning guys |
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| 14:21.12 | Utah_Dave | morning |
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| 14:27.28 | thebigdog | ty Utah_Dave i received it |
| 14:30.53 | Utah_Dave | cool. |
| 14:31.03 | Utah_Dave | They have some cool channels in there |
| 14:31.22 | Utah_Dave | I almost have Joost working on Ubuntu. |
| 14:33.20 | timinator | I was unimpressed w/ Joost |
| 14:33.51 | timinator | but I'm generally unimpressed w/ TV too |
| 14:44.29 | wps | I'm not interested in internet TV/movies unless there's a way to get it to my TV. |
| 14:45.16 | thebigdog | that little mac movie thing looks cool |
| 14:45.16 | wps | if I'm going to watch something, I want to be sitting on my couch in front of 40" and surround sound |
| 14:45.31 | wps | joost needs to partner with Apple |
| 14:45.32 | thebigdog | i hear ya on that one |
| 14:47.21 | herlo | wps: TViX |
| 14:48.04 | herlo | wps: I own one, and they rock http://www.tvix.co.kr/eng/ |
| 14:48.36 | herlo | It will play 1080p from a variety of formats including full ISO and XvID |
| 14:48.59 | herlo | there's a new one coming out this fall that will play 1080p I should mention |
| 14:49.22 | wps | nice |
| 14:49.51 | wps | why is Apple the only company that gets product names? |
| 14:49.53 | herlo | and matroska full h264 up to 15MB/s |
| 14:50.04 | wps | what the crap does HD M-5100SH mean? |
| 14:50.25 | wps | why do they insist on a scrabble-bag of numbers and letters that are completely meaningless? |
| 14:50.57 | herlo | wps: how does ipod describe anything? |
| 14:51.10 | wps | it doesn't, but I can remember it |
| 14:51.23 | wps | and everyone knows what an iPod is |
| 14:51.30 | herlo | I agree that they should give them unique names, that's why I call it the TViX I guess... |
| 14:51.47 | herlo | they do because Apple did a good job on marketing |
| 14:51.56 | herlo | but I think the VAIO is just as well known |
| 14:51.59 | herlo | and that's not from apple |
| 14:52.06 | herlo | what about the thinkpd |
| 14:52.09 | herlo | thinkpad |
| 14:52.28 | wps | well, I didn't say that Apple is the _only_ one that has every done it |
| 14:52.34 | herlo | the T series is farily well known |
| 14:52.36 | wps | I said that they seem to be the only one that "gets it" |
| 14:52.54 | wps | even the car companies are getting stupid about it |
| 14:52.55 | herlo | wps: what's the difference? |
| 14:53.11 | wps | difference: HD M-5100SH vs. iTV |
| 14:53.18 | wps | s/iTV/Apple TV/ |
| 14:53.55 | herlo | true, there are some strange names out there, but I think other companies "get it" |
| 14:54.01 | wps | difference: Dell XPS M1710 vs. Apple MacBook |
| 14:54.10 | herlo | wps: its an XPS notebook |
| 14:54.24 | herlo | I know what that is, it means bulky overpriced laptop IIRC |
| 14:54.40 | herlo | or is that PC, but its one of them... |
| 14:54.46 | herlo | :) |
| 14:56.35 | wps | another example, Lincoln (Ford) just renamed the Zephyr, the "MKZ" to make it seem more presetigeous and "european" |
| 14:56.39 | wps | that's stupid |
| 14:56.45 | wps | how are you supposed to remember MKZ? |
| 14:57.01 | wps | and why dump decades of brand name recogition? |
| 14:57.34 | herlo | I remember the Mazda 3 |
| 14:57.38 | herlo | and the Mazda 6 |
| 14:57.43 | herlo | what's the difference there? |
| 14:57.58 | timinator | anyone heard of folio? |
| 14:58.20 | wps | Mazda 3 is unique |
| 14:58.22 | timinator | anyone care? |
| 14:58.41 | herlo | timinator: yes |
| 14:58.42 | wps | MKZ isn't there are many other cars with names that are only one letter difference |
| 14:58.46 | wps | I've heard of it |
| 14:58.46 | herlo | ~lart timinator |
| 14:58.46 | jbot | frags timinator with his BFG9000 |
| 14:59.09 | herlo | you should name your car the qqq |
| 15:01.24 | timinator | I think they're going about it wrong..... they're trying to make a small laptop so that it's more convenient.... but I think they're missing the point |
| 15:01.56 | timinator | a cell phone is convenient because you can use one hand to operate it, and stick it on your belt when not in use |
| 15:02.20 | herlo | http://www.tvix.co.kr/Eng/products/4100sh.aspx |
| 15:02.21 | timinator | a laptop is good when you can sit down, use the desk or a lap to hold the devise, and use both hands to type |
| 15:02.25 | herlo | wps: that's for you |
| 15:02.39 | jsmith | herlo: What did that cost you? |
| 15:02.47 | timinator | I suggest the middle ground is something similar to a pad of paper.... |
| 15:02.57 | herlo | jsmith: the one you see there is different from mine, slightly |
| 15:03.04 | herlo | mine has no h.264 capability. |
| 15:03.06 | *** join/#uphpu Ritter (i=ritter@unstoppable.chpass.net) |
| 15:03.14 | jsmith | herlo: I see... cost? |
| 15:03.15 | herlo | I got it for $249 + shipping |
| 15:03.29 | timinator | they should make a simple devise, touch screen on one side, leather wraped on the other |
| 15:03.45 | timinator | make it flash based so it's quick |
| 15:03.52 | herlo | jsmith: I love it though. I has a DVI port on the back as well as digital audio ports. Connects to both samba and nfs shares |
| 15:03.59 | wps | I almost would avoid even considering the devise simply because they used Comic Sans in the headline on the advertisement |
| 15:03.59 | timinator | with the main app something like stickies |
| 15:04.04 | timinator | but full screen |
| 15:04.09 | herlo | as well as having a hard drive bay inside. |
| 15:04.25 | herlo | mine bay was only PATA but they now sell SATA models for the same price |
| 15:04.40 | herlo | wps: whatever |
| 15:05.11 | herlo | wps: thats silly to base your purchase decisions solely on the font they use... :) |
| 15:05.29 | wps | I disagree… it says a lot about the company and reflects on the quality of their product |
| 15:05.42 | herlo | wps: that's like saying that I wouldn't talk to you because you can't spell device |
| 15:05.52 | herlo | :) |
| 15:05.55 | Ritter | unless the ad wasnt designed by them |
| 15:06.35 | herlo | I think it doesn't say anything about the company itself. I think it has more to do with perception they want to portray. Maybe they don't care because the product speaks for itself |
| 15:06.49 | wps | if they don't have budget or the sense to hire a good designer or advertising agency, then how do I have confidence that their product is quality? |
| 15:06.49 | timinator | BRB |
| 15:06.58 | Ritter | herlo: I got here late in the convo, what product? |
| 15:07.09 | herlo | http://www.tvix.co.kr/Eng/products/4100sh.aspx |
| 15:07.13 | herlo | ritter, that one |
| 15:08.16 | wps | jbot, group hug |
| 15:08.33 | jsmith | ~grouphug |
| 15:09.07 | jbot | ACTION hugs everbody and makes it all better... |
| 15:09.15 | jsmith | ~hug the group |
| 15:09.30 | jbot | ACTION sneaks up on the group and suddenly hugs the group tightly |
| 15:09.31 | Ritter | I'd buy that ... if I wasn't already planning to rather buy AppleTV |
| 15:09.31 | herlo | wps: in what way does their poorly designed website imply they have no money. Maybe they prefer to put money into R&D rather than a flashy site? |
| 15:09.33 | herlo | Ritter: appleTV isn't as open as this |
| 15:09.33 | herlo | AppleTV will lock you in with some sort of DRM, my guess |
| 15:09.42 | herlo | jbot: ahh, thanx |
| 15:10.36 | wps | it doesn't imply that they don't have money… but their product is perceived as being less professional and having less quality |
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| 15:12.06 | herlo | I disagree. If you sell a product based solely on its look from advertising, microsoft would never have become the giant that it is. Have you ever seen the Windows 386 commercial? |
| 15:12.38 | herlo | yeah, they've improved their advertising image now, but I doubt that will help them all that much. |
| 15:14.13 | wps | it is an fact that packaging and advertising significantly effect purchasing decisions and that people often purchase things solely off of those points, disregarding features or quality |
| 15:14.41 | herlo | wps: a sad fact indeed |
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| 15:15.55 | Utah_Dave | herlo: I think I'm going to buy one of those. |
| 15:15.56 | herlo | wps: I'll concede that people do that. I think many of us are just a bunch of cattle, following what looks shiny and new. We should all really do our research first. And with the technology out there now, we really have no excuse not to |
| 15:16.01 | herlo | Utah_Dave: they rock! |
| 15:16.30 | wps | I agree that there is a lot of "cattle" purchasing, but I don't think that that is the only factor |
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| 15:16.47 | wps | shiny and professionally looking packaging and advertising does affect perception |
| 15:16.47 | herlo | I think it enough... |
| 15:17.24 | herlo | wps: to a point it does. I don't know many geeks that will buy a package under $100 based solely on its shinyness |
| 15:18.01 | wps | well, I'm talking about the population as a whole and not just geeks |
| 15:18.16 | wps | geeks don't care about aesthetics generally and look past design at the features |
| 15:19.23 | herlo | wps: which was my point to begin with. I consider you a geek (you're welcome) and wonder why you have that opinion. I do think though, that more people should avoid being cattle and research first... |
| 15:21.06 | herlo | Utah_Dave: btw, this is the one I own, minus the SATA: http://www.tvix.co.kr/Eng/products/HDM4000.aspx |
| 15:26.33 | Utah_Dave | cool |
| 15:27.15 | wps | which company do you trust more with your credit card? |
| 15:27.17 | wps | http://www.110220volts.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=ASYF-1162-01LF |
| 15:27.21 | wps | http://circuitcity.com/ccd/home.do |
| 15:28.54 | Ritter | circuitcity.com had a popup (blocked, but still) |
| 15:28.59 | herlo | wps: I certainly don't trust circuit city |
| 15:29.14 | wps | alright, never mind then |
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| 15:30.12 | Ritter | wb mgeary |
| 15:30.12 | mgeary | heya |
| 15:33.15 | thebigdog | herlo how much they cost? |
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| 15:39.23 | mgeary | OT question for ya-- |
| 15:39.32 | mgeary | i've got an AFP server with a USB drive attached. When i mount both the boot volume this USB drive over Airport Extreme, i get about .5 megs/sec transfer from the USB drive, but i get about 1 to 1.5 megs/sec transfer from the boot volume. I know that USB2 is slower than SATA, but it's still way faster than Airport, so why the speed difference? |
| 15:54.34 | Ritter | depends what else is happening on the USB bus, since its a shared bus |
| 15:54.37 | mgeary | yeah, but when i copy from the USB drive to the boot drive, i get 20+ megs/sec |
| 15:54.37 | mgeary | so i don't see how it could be the USB protocol... |
| 15:54.49 | Ritter | not the protocol, the procedure |
| 15:55.36 | Ritter | you are going from network -> usb .. theres likely to be some overhead |
| 15:55.48 | Ritter | ie: tmp files |
| 15:56.21 | mgeary | why would it need tmp files? |
| 15:57.00 | Ritter | I'm just guessing that 'something' like that is happening to handle the transfer |
| 15:57.39 | mgeary | seems strange. i'm gonna do some tests with scp and compare |
| 15:58.10 | Ritter | what if you copied to the AFP, and then moved them to the USB |
| 15:58.27 | mgeary | well, yeah |
| 15:58.50 | mgeary | my hope however, was to use the 500 GB USB drive as a data partition for the server. |
| 15:58.58 | mgeary | since i've only got 7 gigs on the boot vol |
| 15:59.23 | mgeary | i'd normally do firewire, but this was 500 GB for $130 |
| 15:59.51 | Ritter | I think you'd be seeing similar results using the same procedure even with firewire |
| 16:00.46 | mgeary | i'd think so |
| 16:00.51 | mgeary | but that's not what i've got :) |
| 16:05.39 | Ritter | I see your point et al .. it seems strange to see the speed difference, but I'm betting its mostly related to the method, take the Airport Extreme out of the picture and I bet you'll find decent transfer rates to the usb device |
| 16:06.15 | mgeary | yeah, i'll make a symlink to a directory on the USB volume and expose it to the webserver |
| 16:06.19 | mgeary | and do some download tests |
| 16:07.53 | Ritter | you can expect a huge difference between reading files and writing files .. reading from usb should be nearly compareable to pata/sata |
| 16:09.47 | mgeary | how 'bout this rain, eh? |
| 16:09.59 | mgeary | lovin' it |
| 16:10.03 | Ritter | I love it too |
| 16:10.08 | Ritter | its watering my lawn |
| 16:10.13 | thebigdog | power tool racing rocks |
| 16:10.13 | mgeary | yeah |
| 16:10.23 | mgeary | power tool racing? |
| 16:10.28 | Ritter | lol |
| 16:10.34 | thebigdog | check youtube |
| 16:10.37 | thebigdog | http://www.instructables.com/id/EHXD774F23Z35HC/ |
| 16:10.49 | thebigdog | i watched it on cable the other night |
| 16:10.51 | wps | I love the rain |
| 16:10.52 | thebigdog | crazy stuff |
| 16:12.13 | timinator | rain makes me sleepy |
| 16:12.28 | timinator | *yawn |
| 16:17.21 | mindjuju | spring / summer = virginia at its best |
| 16:18.13 | thebigdog | negative |
| 16:18.34 | thebigdog | spring / summer = alaska at its best |
| 16:18.43 | mgeary | interesting |
| 16:18.49 | mindjuju | alaska? |
| 16:18.53 | thebigdog | yeah |
| 16:18.58 | mindjuju | isn't alaska just frozen tundra? |
| 16:19.10 | mgeary | i'd love to go to Alaska |
| 16:19.13 | mgeary | lots of forests |
| 16:19.15 | mgeary | and rivers |
| 16:19.17 | mgeary | i hear |
| 16:19.18 | mindjuju | doesn't frozen tundra look the same in all seasons? |
| 16:19.24 | mindjuju | white, hard and cold? |
| 16:19.28 | thebigdog | mindjuju, if you are up north there is |
| 16:19.44 | thebigdog | welll the top layer of the tundra grows stuff |
| 16:19.51 | thebigdog | mgeary, it is killer fun |
| 16:20.06 | mgeary | so, i've hooked up this USB volume to Apache, and i get a sustained download rate of 2+ megs/sec, at least 500kb/sec faster than AFP |
| 16:20.19 | mgeary | so that's good |
| 16:20.25 | mindjuju | i'm just teasing |
| 16:20.36 | mindjuju | i'm sure alaska looks pretty |
| 16:20.47 | thebigdog | and there is tons to do too |
| 16:20.50 | mgeary | thebigdog: how far south does the whole summer "daylight all night long" thing happen? |
| 16:21.26 | thebigdog | my stopping grounds was anchorage and the middle of the night it is dusk |
| 16:21.36 | thebigdog | so like the sun sets for a little and then comes back up |
| 16:21.45 | thebigdog | that is the darkest it gets |
| 16:22.05 | thebigdog | fishing in the summer is killer fun |
| 16:22.16 | thebigdog | you get there a 11:30pm catch your limit |
| 16:22.26 | thebigdog | wait until 12:01am then catch your next limit |
| 16:22.31 | mgeary | heh |
| 16:22.35 | thebigdog | and its light |
| 16:22.48 | mindjuju | what kind of fish you catch? |
| 16:22.49 | thebigdog | salmon |
| 16:22.51 | thebigdog | halibut |
| 16:22.57 | mindjuju | love halibut |
| 16:23.02 | thebigdog | oh yeah |
| 16:23.03 | mindjuju | smoked salmon good too |
| 16:23.07 | thebigdog | yep |
| 16:23.18 | mgeary | you know what fish is great, but you never get at restaurants? Mackerel |
| 16:23.33 | mindjuju | don't think i've ever had mackerel |
| 16:23.35 | mgeary | i had raw mackerel in the Netherlands. it's quite tasty |
| 16:23.49 | mgeary | raw herring, on the other hand, is somewhat gross |
| 16:24.05 | thebigdog | never had it either |
| 16:25.31 | mgeary | it's like tuna, but whiter and tastier |
| 16:26.00 | thebigdog | tuna is good |
| 16:26.14 | thebigdog | i had some sushi with some salmon that was really tasty |
| 16:27.55 | jsmith | Mmmnn... sushi |
| 16:27.59 | jsmith | *Now* you've got me hungry |
| 16:28.19 | thebigdog | oh man it was good |
| 16:28.25 | thebigdog | i spent so much money on it |
| 16:28.51 | thebigdog | there was 8 of use and we dropped almost $300 on it all |
| 16:29.03 | jsmith | That's nothing |
| 16:29.12 | mgeary | no, that is, indeed, something |
| 16:29.15 | jsmith | My boss once dropped $500 on sushi for four of us |
| 16:29.24 | thebigdog | ok...you guys eat too much |
| 16:29.43 | jsmith | Man, it was delicious |
| 16:29.52 | thebigdog | sushi is so good |
| 16:30.03 | jsmith | Amen, brother! |
| 16:30.12 | jsmith | Next time I come to Utah, we're all going out for sushi |
| 16:30.25 | thebigdog | im there |
| 16:32.01 | mgeary | sushi + utah = ?? ;) |
| 16:32.17 | _psychic_ | sushtah |
| 16:33.15 | mgeary | utahshi |
| 16:37.25 | jsmith | utashimi |
| 16:39.46 | _psychic_ | there's a all you can eat sushi place on s. state in Orem I still need to try |
| 16:40.12 | herlo | thebigdog: mine was $250 |
| 16:40.32 | thebigdog | i just did not think i could spend that much on fish |
| 16:40.50 | jsmith | _psychic_: It's pretty good... get the Ernie roll (I think they changed the name to Ermine or something like that... we still call it the ernie) |
| 16:42.20 | _psychic_ | good to know |
| 16:42.58 | herlo | thebigdog: from your request earlier |
| 16:43.14 | thebigdog | oh on the device |
| 16:44.40 | jsmith | _psychic_: The only thing to watch out for there is that they'll charge you $5 if you don't finish it all, or want to take the rest home in a doggy bag |
| 16:45.09 | _psychic_ | Sounds like the deal at Asuka |
| 16:46.05 | jsmith | Oh, wait... sorry. |
| 16:46.08 | jsmith | I'm thinking Asuka |
| 16:49.56 | _psychic_ | I like the Vegas roll there. |
| 16:49.58 | _psychic_ | mmmmboy |
| 16:58.44 | PoeticIntensity | great. |
| 16:58.47 | PoeticIntensity | now I'm starved. |
| 16:58.52 | PoeticIntensity | bah... |
| 17:23.13 | herlo | http://www.mathiaspedersen.com/3dportfolio_poor_pluto_high.html - nice pic |
| 17:45.03 | thebigdog | what langs does coda support |
| 17:48.20 | wps | http://anavidesign.com/temp/langs.png |
| 17:48.20 | thebigdog | oh nice...now i just need a mac |
| 17:48.33 | thebigdog | thats like everything i work in |
| 17:48.37 | thebigdog | minus smarty crap and actionscript |
| 17:48.39 | wps | everyone needs a Mac |
| 17:48.49 | wps | smarty isn't crap |
| 17:48.51 | thebigdog | i just got to save 3k is all |
| 17:48.53 | wps | it's crap crap crap |
| 17:49.02 | thebigdog | i hate smarty with a passion |
| 17:49.10 | wps | I as well |
| 17:49.19 | thebigdog | i would rather write xslt than smarty |
| 17:49.26 | wps | I'd rather write PHP |
| 17:58.24 | *** join/#uphpu bradym (n=bradym@63.197.255.70) |
| 18:06.27 | mindjuju | sure is a lot of love going on around here |
| 18:13.40 | thebigdog | i hate php :) |
| 18:41.22 | *** join/#uphpu gibba (i=gibs@209-253-35-21.ip.mcleodusa.net) |
| 18:43.50 | *** join/#uphpu gibs[h] (n=gibs@209-253-35-18.ip.mcleodusa.net) |
| 19:16.03 | herlo | _psychic_: asuka is yummy too |
| 19:16.28 | _psychic_ | fo sho |
| 19:16.37 | _psychic_ | their rules are a little tricky for first timers |
| 19:16.41 | herlo | _psychic_: there are better places, but not in Utah valley |
| 19:16.49 | herlo | _psychic_: rules? |
| 19:16.54 | _psychic_ | which is usually extra fun because the staff doesn't speak english so well |
| 19:16.59 | _psychic_ | rules for the all you can eat |
| 19:17.07 | herlo | _psychic_: oh, I didn't do that |
| 19:17.22 | herlo | _psychic_: which asuka did you go to? |
| 19:17.37 | _psychic_ | on University |
| 19:17.37 | herlo | _psychic_: is there more than one? |
| 19:17.41 | herlo | okay |
| 19:17.42 | _psychic_ | (don't think so) |
| 19:17.43 | herlo | whew |
| 19:18.03 | herlo | I don't recall an all you can eat special. However my flatmate knows the manager |
| 19:18.14 | herlo | not that it got us a discount or anything |
| 19:18.22 | _psychic_ | $13 all you can eat sushe |
| 19:18.24 | _psychic_ | *sushi |
| 19:18.44 | herlo | _psychic_: very nice, what hours? |
| 19:19.05 | _psychic_ | I think all day |
| 19:19.16 | _psychic_ | they have a banner on the outside of the bldg (if it's still there) |
| 19:20.31 | herlo | hmm, didn't see it last time I was there. I am planning on going again very soon, I'll check then |
| 19:35.19 | herlo | does uphpu have an official logo? |
| 19:39.06 | *** join/#uphpu orson (n=orson@b22222.bookstore.usu.edu) |
| 19:39.56 | PoeticIntensity | ok..... |
| 19:40.11 | PoeticIntensity | I'm not a smarty expert, but I understand the concept of a framework / tokenizer.... |
| 19:40.14 | PoeticIntensity | What do you all hate about smarty? |
| 19:40.22 | PoeticIntensity | ~wake wps |
| 19:40.47 | jbot | ACTION throws a barrel-full of ice water on wps and shouts "GOOD MORNING!!!!" |
| 19:40.48 | PoeticIntensity | ~smack thebigdog |
| 19:41.11 | jbot | ACTION smacks thebigdog upside the head. |
| 19:41.11 | wps | it's a waste |
| 19:41.11 | PoeticIntensity | uh.... okay.... ? |
| 19:41.16 | PoeticIntensity | I need a bit more specificity, if you would be so kind... |
| 19:41.16 | wps | waste of bandwidth… waste of processing power… waste of time learning new syntax… waste of unnecessary complexity |
| 19:41.24 | wps | why add another layer on top of your project? |
| 19:41.46 | PoeticIntensity | mind if I ask how you separate your logic from display? Or if that's important to you? |
| 19:42.01 | wps | the same way you do with smarty |
| 19:42.03 | PoeticIntensity | that, being my first response to "why add another layer on top"? |
| 19:42.12 | PoeticIntensity | but without it? |
| 19:42.27 | PoeticIntensity | because.... that's exactly the way I do it, but I've never used / seen / worked with Smarty. |
| 19:42.49 | PoeticIntensity | do you use another package that is smarty-esque, or ....? |
| 19:43.27 | wps | no, no need for a package |
| 19:43.28 | wps | over complication |
| 19:43.28 | wps | put the business logic in one file (PHP + SQL), put the display logic in another (PHP + HTML + javascript + flash) and then just include the second into the first |
| 19:43.28 | PoeticIntensity | I hear ya.... |
| 19:43.28 | wps | or, if you want to make it a little cleaner, use a class |
| 19:43.48 | PoeticIntensity | interesting... |
| 19:44.01 | PoeticIntensity | so separating HTML from PHP isn't an issue for ya? |
| 19:44.06 | wps | it boggles my mind why everyone tries to make it all so complicated |
| 19:44.07 | PoeticIntensity | I'm honestly curious... |
| 19:44.30 | PoeticIntensity | My question comes from the fact that the only framework I've ever used was created by the people of ThirstyPixel... |
| 19:44.37 | PoeticIntensity | and it made so much sense to me, I've never used anything else. |
| 19:44.42 | wps | PHP is a presentation logic language… that's what it was designed for and that's it's greatest strength |
| 19:44.44 | PoeticIntensity | just a simple tokenizer function. |
| 19:44.59 | wps | it's only recently that it has become robust enough to be used as a backend language |
| 19:45.01 | PoeticIntensity | hmm..... |
| 19:45.06 | wps | and it's sad that so many people have forgotten that |
| 19:45.17 | PoeticIntensity | well.... "recently" can be ambiguous. |
| 19:45.17 | wps | PHP is what SMARTY is trying to be… but is so much better |
| 19:45.34 | wps | what are you asking about separating HTML from PHP? |
| 19:45.38 | PoeticIntensity | yes. |
| 19:45.47 | PoeticIntensity | what I have come to know as "tokenizing". |
| 19:46.10 | PoeticIntensity | making it so an HTML designer can easily create a design without having to worry about a bunch of PHP crud he / she doesn't understand. |
| 19:46.28 | PoeticIntensity | and yet.... integrate it nicely with the functionality PHP provides. |
| 19:46.56 | wps | well, whatever the language is (PHP, SMARTY, something custom), the front-end guy is going to have to have a scripting language |
| 19:47.01 | wps | something to write the display logic in |
| 19:47.04 | wps | pure HTML isn't sufficient |
| 19:47.13 | wps | you have to be able to echo out variables and loop through arrays |
| 19:47.16 | PoeticIntensity | what if this "front-end designer" has no idea how to write PHP? |
| 19:47.28 | PoeticIntensity | see.... that's the beauty of tokenizing... |
| 19:47.30 | PoeticIntensity | no looping... |
| 19:47.30 | wps | well, he will have to know some syntax |
| 19:47.32 | PoeticIntensity | no variables... |
| 19:47.41 | PoeticIntensity | anyway.... we digress... |
| 19:47.59 | PoeticIntensity | My question doesn't pertain to whether tokenizing is necessary... |
| 19:48.02 | PoeticIntensity | I've come to that conclusion a long time ago.. |
| 19:48.06 | wps | I don't know about tokenizing… how does it work if there are no variables or loops? |
| 19:48.14 | PoeticIntensity | I'm just wondering what ya'll don't like about Smarty. |
| 19:48.19 | wps | how do you take the data and insert it into the HTML? |
| 19:48.22 | PoeticIntensity | there are only tokens. |
| 19:48.28 | wps | what's a token? |
| 19:48.29 | PoeticIntensity | by tokenizing the HTML. |
| 19:48.39 | PoeticIntensity | anything that is consistent and known......... i.e. |
| 19:48.54 | PoeticIntensity | my tokens are anything encapsulated within double brackets... ([[token]]) |
| 19:49.04 | wps | the reason that Smarty is dumb is that it's just reinventing the wheel… if you're front end guy has to learn a syntax, just teach him basic pHP |
| 19:49.07 | PoeticIntensity | the templating PHP script then takes the HTML, grabs the tokens.... |
| 19:49.29 | PoeticIntensity | replaces the tokens with content (no formatting... just data) |
| 19:49.36 | PoeticIntensity | and then spits out the tokenized HTML. |
| 19:49.48 | PoeticIntensity | all the logic is within PHP. |
| 19:49.55 | PoeticIntensity | all the display is within an HTML script... |
| 19:49.58 | PoeticIntensity | no PHP inside the HTML. |
| 19:50.10 | PoeticIntensity | and none (very little) HTML inside the PHP scripts. |
| 19:50.39 | PoeticIntensity | along side making the separation of content / logic good to go, it also creates an immense structure for scalability. |
| 19:50.51 | wps | what if you have a table of rows that you need to spit out? |
| 19:50.58 | wps | in the front end? |
| 19:51.02 | *** join/#uphpu mgeary (n=mgeary@72.8.120.115) |
| 19:51.02 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v mgeary] by ChanServ |
| 19:51.05 | PoeticIntensity | create an HTML file with one row... and the tokens required for the data. |
| 19:51.25 | PoeticIntensity | then you just double-up the foreach loops in your PHP to grab multiple HTML files. |
| 19:51.41 | PoeticIntensity | it's less-than-perfect, but it does maintain the separation of content and logic... |
| 19:51.50 | PoeticIntensity | and ensures that the HTML grunts can stay in their pay-range. |
| 19:51.51 | PoeticIntensity | :) |
| 19:52.02 | wps | interesting… sounds like a LOT of extra files |
| 19:52.11 | PoeticIntensity | yup. |
| 19:52.14 | PoeticIntensity | there are loads of files. |
| 19:52.16 | PoeticIntensity | very true. |
| 19:52.17 | orson | I guess I don't like the idea that you seperate the logic from the content from the content from the content |
| 19:52.22 | wps | I've never been concerned with separating content from logic |
| 19:52.24 | wps | why do that? |
| 19:52.31 | PoeticIntensity | I've already gone over that. |
| 19:52.36 | PoeticIntensity | for a person who does NOT know PHP. |
| 19:54.33 | PoeticIntensity | makes it so you can hire a guy for 8.00 / hr instead of a guy who already knows PHP / HTML and won't work for less than 9. :) |
| 19:54.33 | wps | but how hard is it to teach any HTML kiddie <?php echo $var; ?> and a foreach? |
| 19:54.33 | PoeticIntensity | heh... |
| 19:54.33 | PoeticIntensity | that's quite a subjective question. |
| 19:54.33 | PoeticIntensity | I'd have to know the guy. |
| 19:54.33 | PoeticIntensity | my little brother can do HTML. |
| 19:54.33 | PoeticIntensity | as soon as he gets into loops, his brain explodes. |
| 19:54.33 | orson | I guess I think there can be multiple levels of seperation where people try to say (content|logic) |
| 19:54.34 | orson | just have the html people create static html, then have a php guy "clean it up a bit" |
| 19:54.34 | PoeticIntensity | the only level to which I refer has to do with separating HTML from the PHP. |
| 19:54.34 | PoeticIntensity | right... |
| 19:54.34 | PoeticIntensity | and then when the HTML needs to be re-done... the HTML guy has no idea what to do with all the new PHP code in there... |
| 19:54.34 | PoeticIntensity | and his head explodes. |
| 19:54.34 | PoeticIntensity | and its messy. |
| 19:54.54 | PoeticIntensity | all I can say is.... |
| 19:55.02 | PoeticIntensity | I programmed without tokenizing for 2 years. |
| 19:55.11 | PoeticIntensity | I've been programming tokenized for 2 years... |
| 19:55.26 | *** join/#uphpu _psychic__ (n=_psychic@66.7.114.126) |
| 19:55.37 | PoeticIntensity | I, now, can't understand how in the world I'd create an application that spans 5 depts within a corporation without having tokenized code. |
| 19:55.51 | PoeticIntensity | for quick scripts..... |
| 19:55.53 | PoeticIntensity | tokenizing is STUPID. |
| 19:55.58 | PoeticIntensity | and wasteful. |
| 19:55.59 | PoeticIntensity | but... |
| 19:56.16 | PoeticIntensity | if it's gonna grow (which 99% of all code does), you're gonna wish you had separated the logic from the display. |
| 19:56.32 | PoeticIntensity | so... |
| 19:56.46 | PoeticIntensity | when your company says "So, IT dept..... We've just hired a bunch of HTML grunts to help out"... |
| 19:56.50 | PoeticIntensity | it can actually work out. |
| 19:57.00 | PoeticIntensity | anyway... |
| 19:57.09 | PoeticIntensity | didn't mean for this conversation to lead here, but... |
| 19:57.20 | PoeticIntensity | I've heard bad things about Smarty... just wondering what the specifics were. |
| 19:57.25 | PoeticIntensity | I've never used it. |
| 19:57.38 | orson | I guess it can be good for reducing the ammount of rope the grunts have to hang themselves with. |
| 19:58.01 | PoeticIntensity | there are many other good reason to build large applications with a framework, but that's definitely one of em'. |
| 19:58.05 | wps | it's basically the type of process that I have described, but your just using an additional layer (engine, syntax, etc) |
| 19:58.08 | PoeticIntensity | reason = reasons |
| 19:58.21 | wps | s/your/you're/ |
| 19:58.27 | *** join/#uphpu _psychic__ (n=_psychic@66.7.114.126) |
| 19:58.36 | PoeticIntensity | gotcha. |
| 19:58.43 | PoeticIntensity | that does seem a bit bloated.. |
| 19:59.06 | orson | wow, that's the first useful thing I've heard jbot say |
| 19:59.07 | PoeticIntensity | the tokenizer I'm using consists of *one* function that spans the length of an entire 10 lines of code. |
| 19:59.08 | wps | and that's why it's dumb… yup extra bloat… and annoying… switching back and forth between syntax |
| 19:59.42 | wps | I feed everything into a class |
| 19:59.43 | PoeticIntensity | the concept is definitely sound, but seems like the actual implementation is a bit much. |
| 20:00.03 | PoeticIntensity | with smarty? |
| 20:00.05 | PoeticIntensity | or without? |
| 20:00.12 | wps | no, I don't use Smarty |
| 20:00.15 | PoeticIntensity | ah |
| 20:00.28 | PoeticIntensity | what is the function of your class? or was that an abstract example? |
| 20:00.37 | PoeticIntensity | function == purpose. |
| 20:02.19 | wps | the reason I use a class is so that I can include the template file and change the namespace… keeps it all clean… it also allows for security… the front end can only use varibles that are in the class… keeps the front-end guys from using global variables |
| 20:02.43 | wps | they only get the variables and arrays that the back-end guys feed to them |
| 20:02.52 | PoeticIntensity | gotcha... |
| 20:02.54 | PoeticIntensity | sweet. |
| 20:03.33 | PoeticIntensity | sort of an authenticate class-ish type thing. |
| 20:03.36 | PoeticIntensity | :) |
| 20:04.10 | PoeticIntensity | ~jbot |
| 20:04.22 | jbot | well, jbot is a hack! |
| 20:04.48 | PoeticIntensity | jbot: jbot is also known to have only said one useful thing. |
| 20:04.52 | jbot | okay, PoeticIntensity |
| 20:04.55 | PoeticIntensity | ~jbot |
| 20:04.57 | jbot | methinks jbot is a hack!, or known to have only said one useful thing. |
| 20:06.01 | wps | so, for example, in the back-end script, you would pull data out of the database and then send it into the class like this: |
| 20:06.07 | wps | $purt->username = $a->getUsername(); |
| 20:06.13 | wps | and then call the template like this: |
| 20:06.17 | wps | $purt->squirt( 'about/templates/whoarewe.tmpl.php' ); |
| 20:07.12 | wps | and then in the front-end template file, you can just do <?php echo $username; ?> instead of having to do <?php echo $purt->username; ?> |
| 20:15.42 | PoeticIntensity | wow... |
| 20:15.51 | PoeticIntensity | this all just goes to stand as a huge kudo to PHP. |
| 20:16.03 | PoeticIntensity | it can written / used / hacked / etc..... in SOOOOO many different ways. |
| 20:16.28 | PoeticIntensity | It boggles my mind that its.... *FREE*. |
| 20:16.30 | PoeticIntensity | crimoney. |
| 20:18.08 | wps | tell your friends |
| 20:18.11 | wps | invite them to the meetings |
| 20:18.16 | wps | we server kool-aid ;) |
| 20:18.23 | wps | s/server/serve/ |
| 20:18.34 | PoeticIntensity | you mean "we H@X04 kool-aid" |
| 20:18.50 | PoeticIntensity | heh... |
| 20:19.00 | PoeticIntensity | ~lart PoeticIntensity |
| 20:19.00 | jbot | readies the nuke launcher and fires some rounds at PoeticIntensity |
| 20:19.12 | PoeticIntensity | thank you, jbot. |
| 20:19.22 | PoeticIntensity | jbot: thank you |
| 20:19.22 | jbot | no worries, PoeticIntensity |
| 20:19.37 | PoeticIntensity | jbot: no seriously.... Thank you. |
| 20:31.20 | *** join/#uphpu beandog (n=sdibb@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 20:31.20 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v beandog] by ChanServ |
| 20:35.06 | beandog | thebigdog is hiding |
| 20:59.19 | Utah_Dave | thebigdog: are you enjoying Joost? |
| 21:01.14 | thebigdog | yeah the cartoons are crazy |
| 21:03.22 | Utah_Dave | cool |
| 21:04.40 | beandog | mmm, cartoons. |
| 21:04.52 | thebigdog | funny stuff |
| 21:05.09 | beandog | is there any chips on there? |
| 21:05.12 | beandog | thats the real question. |
| 21:05.20 | thebigdog | nope |
| 21:05.25 | beandog | lame. |
| 21:05.31 | beandog | where am I supposed to get my 70s sitcom fix? |
| 21:10.46 | thebigdog | yeah |
| 21:51.19 | timinator | I'm out... later guys |
| 22:05.43 | thebigdog | anyone know of any issues with z-index in IE7 |
| 22:47.51 | thebigdog | IE sucks with dom object model |
| 22:48.59 | thebigdog | wake everyone |
| 22:49.04 | thebigdog | ~wake everyone |
| 22:49.16 | jbot | ACTION throws a barrel-full of ice water on everyone and shouts "GOOD MORNING!!!!" |
| 22:49.21 | thebigdog | ~tell #uphpu that IE sucks |
| 22:49.48 | *** join/#uphpu mgeary (n=mgeary@72.8.120.115) |
| 22:49.48 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v mgeary] by ChanServ |
| 22:54.44 | thebigdog | ~whip mgeary |
| 22:54.49 | jbot | ACTION takes mgeary outside to be thoroughly whipped by thebigdog |
| 22:55.00 | mgeary | owwww. dangit, thebigdog! |
| 22:55.30 | mgeary | time for a rebot |
| 22:55.33 | mgeary | reboot |
| 22:55.37 | thebigdog | lol |
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