| 00:00.04 | jbot | wps <n=wps@67.108.236.230.ptr.us.xo.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #uphpu, 2h 35m 14s ago, saying: 'suckerfish++'. |
| 00:00.14 | *** part/#uphpu mgeary (n=mgeary@166.70.44.49) |
| 00:00.25 | thebigdog | uh...someone had a tuna sandwich too |
| 00:00.49 | thebigdog | i love when management wants a client server app on the web |
| 00:01.47 | mindjuju | that's wierd |
| 00:01.52 | thebigdog | fyi - http://fosscon.org/cfp |
| 00:02.02 | mindjuju | there's an A+ Cert for Dummies book |
| 00:02.12 | thebigdog | oh i need that |
| 00:02.12 | mindjuju | isn't the whole point of A+ cert that they aren't dummies? |
| 00:02.16 | thebigdog | the i can be cool like LW |
| 00:02.35 | Lone_Wanderer | Eh? What? |
| 00:02.37 | Lone_Wanderer | Need what? |
| 00:03.38 | mindjuju | i was just saying that it was wierd that there was an A+ for Dummies book |
| 00:03.52 | Lone_Wanderer | ahh |
| 00:04.55 | dataw0lf | I thought the A+ cert was an easy identifier FOR a dummy. |
| 00:05.20 | thebigdog | a+ and ms certs |
| 00:06.12 | mindjuju | yeah, all the certs reminds me of that Dr. Seuss book the Sneeteches |
| 00:06.38 | Lone_Wanderer | The Sneetches? |
| 00:07.26 | mindjuju | yeah, there are these things called Sneetches that are these big bird thigns |
| 00:07.35 | Lone_Wanderer | ok |
| 00:07.42 | Lone_Wanderer | oh, star-bellied sneetches? |
| 00:07.43 | mindjuju | anyways, there are Sneetches with stars on their bellys and sneetches who don't have stars |
| 00:07.47 | mindjuju | exactly |
| 00:07.49 | Lone_Wanderer | right, right |
| 00:07.54 | Lone_Wanderer | and the machine that takes them off and puts them on |
| 00:08.02 | mindjuju | exactly |
| 00:08.11 | mindjuju | where MS is that dude that takes everybody's money |
| 00:08.19 | mindjuju | and techs are the sneetches |
| 00:08.35 | mindjuju | and we want this cert and that cert |
| 00:08.40 | Lone_Wanderer | ahhhh |
| 00:08.45 | mindjuju | and all the while MS is standing in the middle collecting our money hand over fist |
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| 13:32.16 | timinator | mornin' |
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| 14:16.30 | *** join/#uphpu thebigdog (n=bigdog@208.177.146.102.ptr.us.xo.net) |
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| 14:18.32 | thebigdog | oh top o' mornin' to ya all |
| 14:20.49 | jsmith | To you as well, thebigdog |
| 14:20.56 | thebigdog | ty |
| 14:21.15 | dataw0lf | morning gents |
| 14:22.14 | thebigdog | i need some breakfast |
| 14:22.48 | jsmith | You too, eh? |
| 14:23.01 | jsmith | I swear, every IRC channel I'm in has someone saying "I need some breakfast" |
| 14:23.28 | thebigdog | its one of those mornings |
| 14:23.35 | jsmith | Yup. |
| 14:23.37 | thebigdog | im thinking breakfast burrito or something |
| 14:24.21 | jsmith | Cheese bagel, couple slices of ham, a couple eggs, and some sharp cheddar |
| 14:24.33 | thebigdog | that sounds good too |
| 14:26.20 | jsmith | It was deeee-licious |
| 14:35.14 | timinator | mmmmm |
| 14:36.10 | timinator | :) |
| 14:36.15 | dataw0lf | noooooo, the corporate culture of America is invading my brains! |
| 14:36.20 | dataw0lf | but it's so nice... and warm... |
| 14:36.36 | dataw0lf | I'm going to Mickey D's |
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| 14:52.10 | jsmith | timinator: I hope your breakfast was substandard ;-) |
| 14:52.40 | timinator | jsmith: my breakfast was supurb ;-) |
| 14:53.43 | jsmith | timinator: At McD? Yech... |
| 14:53.45 | jsmith | ~puke |
| 14:53.46 | jbot | HOOF BLEEEECH! *flush* |
| 14:53.55 | timinator | lol |
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| 15:16.30 | Lone_Wanderer | Hello. |
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| 15:23.43 | mgeary | ~yow |
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| 16:26.35 | macnewbold | ~cookie |
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| 16:29.36 | mgeary | ~roulette |
| 16:29.38 | jbot | ACTION watches mgeary pull the trigger: BANG! |
| 16:29.44 | PoeticIntensity | ouch |
| 16:38.32 | Utah_Dave | ~lart mindjuju |
| 16:38.32 | jbot | whips mindjuju with a wet and grimy noodle just because |
| 16:44.23 | PoeticIntensity | hoorah! I get to do form validation today! |
| 16:44.27 | PoeticIntensity | *sigh* |
| 16:45.50 | PoeticIntensity | Does anyone but me here have to deal with projects explained half-way, given 1/4 the necessary time to do it right, and told that speed is more important than "getting it done right" ? |
| 16:46.03 | PoeticIntensity | man... that seems to be the M.O. here. |
| 16:46.20 | PoeticIntensity | "Hey... Stop what you're doing and start on this one." |
| 16:46.31 | PoeticIntensity | ....."But, boss... I'm not even half-way done with...." |
| 16:46.37 | PoeticIntensity | "I don't care. Stop it, and start on this one." |
| 16:46.40 | macnewbold | haha |
| 16:46.41 | PoeticIntensity | "Where are the specs....?" |
| 16:46.47 | PoeticIntensity | "Specs?... What are those?" |
| 16:46.56 | PoeticIntensity | "I see..... Okay... What am I supposed to do?" |
| 16:47.03 | PoeticIntensity | "Make a website that takes credit cards". |
| 16:47.10 | macnewbold | typical P.H.B. attitude... we deal with quite a few clients like that, but not for very long... |
| 16:47.11 | PoeticIntensity | "uhhh..... okay...." |
| 16:47.34 | macnewbold | we usually fix them or drop them, or rather, they drop us, because we ask them too many "hard questions" |
| 16:47.41 | PoeticIntensity | yeah.... |
| 16:47.48 | PoeticIntensity | all my clients are internal employees. |
| 16:47.58 | PoeticIntensity | usually from the "executives" |
| 16:48.01 | tierra | that sounds a little too familiar with my current job... :/ |
| 16:48.03 | PoeticIntensity | I feel bad for *my* boss. |
| 16:48.33 | dataw0lf | You should talk to your boss and implement a specific method in which they approach you |
| 16:48.33 | PoeticIntensity | my boss takes the aforementioned crap from the execs and tries to give me at least a tiny idea of what they want. |
| 16:48.34 | macnewbold | in a way, the office here is like having your own support group of people who understand your pain... |
| 16:48.48 | PoeticIntensity | dataw0lf: Believe me.... I have. |
| 16:48.50 | PoeticIntensity | and He has. |
| 16:48.50 | tierra | na, it's not nearly all that bad, I'm usually given time to finish what I'm working on |
| 16:48.53 | PoeticIntensity | they don't care. |
| 16:49.07 | PoeticIntensity | macnewbold, right on bro.! |
| 16:49.09 | macnewbold | the worst is that they usually don't get what they want because they don't explain what they want, so the dev has to guess |
| 16:49.17 | PoeticIntensity | BINGO! |
| 16:49.20 | PoeticIntensity | so everyone loses! |
| 16:49.20 | dataw0lf | which is the worst |
| 16:49.27 | macnewbold | dataw0lf's office have a different way of dealing with pain though |
| 16:49.30 | macnewbold | called "open bar" |
| 16:49.46 | dataw0lf | better than whining to a coworker |
| 16:49.52 | PoeticIntensity | dataw0lf, the beauty of this job is.... If you do your job right (under these circumstances), it just propogates the problem.... |
| 16:49.56 | dataw0lf | I whine to a bottle |
| 16:49.57 | macnewbold | you mean you don't do that at the open bar anyway? |
| 16:50.00 | dataw0lf | well |
| 16:50.02 | dataw0lf | yea mebbe |
| 16:50.08 | macnewbold | hehe |
| 16:50.12 | dataw0lf | ;-) |
| 16:50.37 | PoeticIntensity | bah..... and if you do "what you're told" (which will give the client exactly what he DOESN'T want), you'll most likely lose your job. |
| 16:50.54 | macnewbold | PoeticIntensity: that's exactly right - until someone confronts them and explains that there's a huge problem, they often can't even tell (or worse, don't even care) that there is a problem |
| 16:51.14 | PoeticIntensity | but man... When the next job comes along - suddenly you're a superstar. Because you can read people's minds! |
| 16:51.32 | macnewbold | but if you start talking dollar signs, that's a language they understand - "look, you're paying me for a month's labor to get a project done that I could have done in a week if I could have found out from you what you really needed" |
| 16:51.39 | PoeticIntensity | macnewbold, you're right. This has been going on for a year. We've tried... They don't care. |
| 16:52.09 | PoeticIntensity | but we can handle it.... |
| 16:52.09 | PoeticIntensity | (tried that too, macnewbold) |
| 16:52.11 | macnewbold | we make all our clients whenever possible tell us what their problem is, rather than what they think they need to solve it, then let us make the call on what would solve their problem(s) most cost effectively |
| 16:52.12 | PoeticIntensity | the reason we can handle it? Well.... it's because we've got an IT team that FREAKIN' ROCKS! |
| 16:52.20 | macnewbold | that always helps |
| 16:52.36 | PoeticIntensity | ya know.... you're exactly right, mac.... |
| 16:52.56 | PoeticIntensity | however - my customers are the CEO, the CFO, and the Sales Manager of the company. |
| 16:53.12 | PoeticIntensity | they "know" how to solve problems. |
| 16:53.16 | PoeticIntensity | telling them differently.... would..... be bad. |
| 16:53.17 | Lone_Wanderer | Apple has announced a new 8 core machine. |
| 16:53.18 | macnewbold | this kind of thing helps make it very clear why business (especially big business, or companies run by self-proclaimed "entrepreneurs") are _so_ inefficient and waste _so_ much money |
| 16:53.42 | PoeticIntensity | dude..... if the execs here knew how much money they're wasting..... |
| 16:53.42 | macnewbold | they can solve problems, they just don't have enough information to solve _technical_ problems well |
| 16:53.48 | macnewbold | tell them :) |
| 16:53.49 | Lone_Wanderer | Now you can be arrogant and elitist 8 times more effectively! |
| 16:54.03 | macnewbold | but wear fireman's gear to do it, and maybe kevlar |
| 16:54.04 | PoeticIntensity | macnewbold, we have. They honestly either don't believe us, or don't care. |
| 16:54.08 | macnewbold | that's lame |
| 16:54.09 | macnewbold | so lame |
| 16:54.20 | PoeticIntensity | again... the salvation here is our team. |
| 16:54.24 | PoeticIntensity | This IT team is amazing. |
| 16:54.29 | PoeticIntensity | Best I've ever worked with. |
| 16:54.36 | PoeticIntensity | we take crap in, and give em' gold. |
| 16:55.00 | macnewbold | now that's a business model that can make some money... |
| 16:55.06 | PoeticIntensity | LOL |
| 16:55.07 | PoeticIntensity | no joke. |
| 16:55.07 | macnewbold | kind of like sewage alchemy |
| 16:55.30 | PoeticIntensity | I've talked with our team members about starting our own business. |
| 16:55.46 | PoeticIntensity | we're all just too chicken. :-D |
| 16:56.56 | dataw0lf | try a gradual transition |
| 16:56.59 | PoeticIntensity | anyway... thanks all for lettin' me vent. |
| 16:57.17 | PoeticIntensity | gradual transition? to starting a new business/ |
| 16:57.17 | PoeticIntensity | ? |
| 16:57.20 | dataw0lf | yea |
| 16:57.29 | dataw0lf | start collecting clients while still working |
| 16:57.33 | PoeticIntensity | yeah. |
| 16:57.42 | PoeticIntensity | I've actually started one already... |
| 16:57.44 | PoeticIntensity | selling myth systems. :) |
| 16:57.54 | PoeticIntensity | Then I got a raise. |
| 16:58.02 | PoeticIntensity | and it wasn't too important to keep the business going. |
| 16:58.22 | dataw0lf | word |
| 16:58.31 | PoeticIntensity | ;-) |
| 16:58.41 | PoeticIntensity | amazing what a chunk of change will do. :) |
| 16:58.46 | Lone_Wanderer | ahh yes, the golden handcuffs |
| 16:58.59 | PoeticIntensity | well..... since I'm on a roll... |
| 16:59.07 | PoeticIntensity | lemme just say also - that along with the crap of this company.... |
| 16:59.19 | PoeticIntensity | when I found a job that paid 15K+ than what I was getting here... |
| 16:59.22 | PoeticIntensity | and told em' I was quitting... |
| 16:59.40 | PoeticIntensity | in addition to giving me a crazy raise, they asked what they could do to make life easier here. |
| 16:59.54 | Lone_Wanderer | And then did they listen and actually do some of it? |
| 17:00.01 | PoeticIntensity | and, amazingly, they gave a great effort to do what they could within reason. |
| 17:00.05 | PoeticIntensity | yeah, there's crap still... |
| 17:00.10 | PoeticIntensity | but holy COW it's much better than it was. |
| 17:01.01 | PoeticIntensity | it went from my boss being condescending 99% of the time, to actually valuing me as more of a "coworker" than a "pee-on employee". |
| 17:01.26 | PoeticIntensity | when I threatened to leave, my manager went to my boss and said "if he goes, we'll be so far behind, we'll never catch up". |
| 17:01.55 | PoeticIntensity | the only time I've ever heard "What do we need to do to keep you here, and keep you happy" when I found a better opportunity. |
| 17:02.20 | PoeticIntensity | honestly, it felt quite good and made me wanna work harder to grow the company. |
| 17:02.26 | PoeticIntensity | wow.... |
| 17:02.36 | PoeticIntensity | that's quite the novel I just wrote. |
| 17:02.40 | PoeticIntensity | anyway. |
| 17:03.22 | PoeticIntensity | thanks for the listening ear. |
| 17:05.44 | Lone_Wanderer | Someone needs to invent a bottle opener for sparkling water |
| 17:06.40 | Lone_Wanderer | Where you put it on the cap and increase the pressure, then open the bottle, and then it slowly drops the air pressure to 1 bar |
| 17:09.05 | PoeticIntensity | thebigdog, has been in the house for quite some time now. :) |
| 17:10.08 | Lone_Wanderer | Woot! The bottle is finally open. |
| 17:14.21 | Lone_Wanderer | But that is a small price to pay for access to the delicious nectar within. |
| 17:15.26 | macnewbold | is it just plain sparkling water, just water and bubbles? or is there some other flavor or sweetener to it? |
| 17:15.44 | macnewbold | water + carbonic acid without the sweetness just tastes bitter to me.. |
| 17:17.14 | Lone_Wanderer | It's got lime flavor in it, but probably no sweetener. |
| 17:17.40 | Lone_Wanderer | yeah, "Mineral water, natural flavors, CO2". I like the odd flavor of plain sparkling water. |
| 17:21.47 | PoeticIntensity | it's definitely an acquired taste... :) |
| 17:23.32 | *** join/#uphpu seant23 (n=seant23@69.27.17.186) |
| 17:23.39 | seant23 | morning |
| 17:23.45 | mgeary | yo |
| 17:23.48 | PoeticIntensity | barely. |
| 17:23.50 | PoeticIntensity | ;-) |
| 17:24.06 | PoeticIntensity | so who's all going to the lunch on Fri? |
| 17:24.10 | Lone_Wanderer | My Dad loves to collect tastes. |
| 17:24.18 | Lone_Wanderer | And I kind of inherited that. |
| 17:24.46 | PoeticIntensity | collect tastes? |
| 17:24.59 | PoeticIntensity | that's an interested combination of words... |
| 17:25.10 | PoeticIntensity | like.... lots of different foods? |
| 17:25.15 | PoeticIntensity | liquids? |
| 17:25.21 | PoeticIntensity | where do you store a "taste"? |
| 17:25.46 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, acquired tastes |
| 17:26.26 | PoeticIntensity | like... trying a variety of foods, drinks, etc...? |
| 17:26.31 | Lone_Wanderer | yeah |
| 17:26.34 | PoeticIntensity | I dig. |
| 17:26.37 | PoeticIntensity | I love trying new things. |
| 17:26.39 | dataw0lf | well, you store tastes in cortical structures. |
| 17:26.41 | PoeticIntensity | to a certain extent. |
| 17:26.43 | dataw0lf | duh. |
| 17:26.47 | Lone_Wanderer | Me too. |
| 17:26.53 | PoeticIntensity | :) |
| 17:26.58 | Lone_Wanderer | He goes to Africa a lot and is always getting sick because he ate something that wasn't *quite* safe. |
| 17:27.12 | Lone_Wanderer | Got an amoeba once that did nasty things to his liver. |
| 17:27.15 | PoeticIntensity | I was once offered fried pig intestine filled with cooked rice and blood. |
| 17:27.29 | PoeticIntensity | amoebas are fun things, aren't they!@ |
| 17:27.30 | PoeticIntensity | heh.. |
| 17:27.47 | Lone_Wanderer | Did your hotel get bombed by the IRA on your way home, too? |
| 17:28.35 | Lone_Wanderer | s/once/sometime |
| 17:28.57 | PoeticIntensity | heh.... |
| 17:28.59 | PoeticIntensity | nope. |
| 17:29.07 | PoeticIntensity | but man... I got amoebas in the lining of my stomach. |
| 17:29.11 | Lone_Wanderer | They didn't bomb it actually. They just burned it down. |
| 17:29.19 | PoeticIntensity | which fed on my stomach. |
| 17:29.21 | Lone_Wanderer | Did you think you were going to die? |
| 17:29.36 | PoeticIntensity | when they ate it felt literally like someone was stabbing me in the stomach. |
| 17:29.39 | Lone_Wanderer | Before you found out what it was? |
| 17:30.18 | dataw0lf | ever gotten your stomach pumped? |
| 17:30.20 | PoeticIntensity | like..... "la dee dah..... walking down the street just fine" (amoeba takes a bite) "AAAAAGH!!!! as I fold over and almost fall to the ground". |
| 17:30.23 | PoeticIntensity | very painful. |
| 17:30.32 | PoeticIntensity | I just took some pills and that killed em'. |
| 17:30.35 | Lone_Wanderer | Aren't they single-celled thingies? |
| 17:31.00 | PoeticIntensity | I have no idea if these "amoebas" are the same amoebas to which you refer. |
| 17:31.01 | dataw0lf | yes |
| 17:31.05 | Lone_Wanderer | ok |
| 17:31.13 | PoeticIntensity | if they are, they are... |
| 17:31.17 | PoeticIntensity | I thought the same thing. |
| 17:31.26 | PoeticIntensity | never pursued it enough to find out if they're the same things. |
| 17:31.32 | PoeticIntensity | lemme know what ya find. |
| 17:31.33 | dataw0lf | they are |
| 17:31.55 | PoeticIntensity | ya sure? |
| 17:32.26 | dataw0lf | yes. |
| 17:32.30 | PoeticIntensity | how so? |
| 17:32.34 | PoeticIntensity | if ya don't mind my asking. |
| 17:32.43 | dataw0lf | because I almost majored in zoology. |
| 17:32.51 | Lone_Wanderer | seriously? |
| 17:32.57 | dataw0lf | yes, seriously. |
| 17:33.00 | Lone_Wanderer | cool |
| 17:33.06 | dataw0lf | I'm still thinking of getting biochem - virology major |
| 17:33.09 | Lone_Wanderer | can you recite the taxonomy of a rabbit? |
| 17:33.16 | PoeticIntensity | LOL |
| 17:33.28 | Lone_Wanderer | I used to have the taxonomy of various raptors memorized. |
| 17:33.29 | mgeary | let's take a poll of Batchelor degrees here |
| 17:33.32 | Lone_Wanderer | When I was a kid. |
| 17:33.43 | mgeary | my degree is in German Literature (Honors) |
| 17:33.45 | seant23 | no college for me |
| 17:33.52 | seant23 | barely high school |
| 17:33.59 | dataw0lf | Chordata - Mammalia - Lagomorpha - Leporidae |
| 17:34.01 | dataw0lf | err |
| 17:34.11 | dataw0lf | Animalia - Chordata - Mammalia - Lagomorpha - Leporidae |
| 17:34.24 | dataw0lf | am I right? |
| 17:34.44 | dataw0lf | I went to college at Purdue for 2.5~ years and then dropped out to join the Army. |
| 17:34.46 | Lone_Wanderer | No degree, but I studied (in chronological order) English, Computer Science, and Greek History. |
| 17:34.48 | PoeticIntensity | oh yeah.... I graduated Cum Laude, too... (whatever that means) |
| 17:34.52 | Lone_Wanderer | I have no idea, dw :p |
| 17:35.18 | dataw0lf | I almost have my CS degree, but it's not really important to me now. |
| 17:35.33 | dataw0lf | might still go for biochem though |
| 17:35.39 | Lone_Wanderer | If I go back it'll probably be to get a degree in philosophy, math, or (if I decide to go hard core) electrical engineering. |
| 17:35.41 | dataw0lf | since my mom is offering to pay for it. |
| 17:35.47 | Lone_Wanderer | Or maybe biology. I love biology. |
| 17:35.53 | PoeticIntensity | dataw0lf, I'd take it. |
| 17:36.03 | dataw0lf | PoeticIntensity: yea, but I have to seriously consider med school, she said. |
| 17:36.06 | Lone_Wanderer | And then I can go into bioinformatics, whatever that is. |
| 17:36.09 | dataw0lf | pshaaaaaaaaaw |
| 17:36.16 | Lone_Wanderer | Med school? |
| 17:36.18 | Lone_Wanderer | You? |
| 17:36.20 | PoeticIntensity | heh.... what does "seriously consider" mean? |
| 17:36.21 | PoeticIntensity | ;-) |
| 17:36.24 | mgeary | dataw0lf: most of my family went to med school. don't do it |
| 17:36.27 | Lone_Wanderer | I don't think they let you drink on the job there. |
| 17:36.34 | PoeticIntensity | LOL |
| 17:36.36 | PoeticIntensity | *great* point. |
| 17:36.43 | dataw0lf | mgeary: Yea, I know, my mother is an anesthesiologist |
| 17:36.51 | PoeticIntensity | seems like dataw0lf couldn't live without beer for at most 30 minutes. |
| 17:36.51 | PoeticIntensity | ;-) |
| 17:36.58 | dataw0lf | and graduated from med school when I was 17, so I'm familiar with the hard work and time |
| 17:37.26 | dataw0lf | I don't care enough about people to be a doctor |
| 17:37.27 | Lone_Wanderer | The sad thing is, I bet DW would be a better doctor even with a bit of booze in him than most doctors I've met are sober. |
| 17:37.32 | dataw0lf | but I want to be a virologist badly |
| 17:37.39 | Lone_Wanderer | Why viruses? |
| 17:38.36 | dataw0lf | because I have a firm belief that CS applications in protein based particles like viruses could be extremely beneficial. |
| 17:38.39 | Lone_Wanderer | There's a guy at BYU studying AIDS. I was his lab assistant for about fifteen minutes. |
| 17:38.54 | dataw0lf | I want to manufacture viruses. |
| 17:39.03 | Lone_Wanderer | Until I figured out that I was never, ever going to touch any code. |
| 17:40.01 | Lone_Wanderer | Viruses are interesting to me. I read an article somewhere (reliability red flag) that said that a non-trivial part of the human genome is comprised of virus DNA. |
| 17:41.29 | dataw0lf | probably RNA polymerases. |
| 17:41.49 | Lone_Wanderer | If you say so :p |
| 17:42.33 | dataw0lf | I wouldn't mind being involved in a genome project |
| 17:42.50 | dataw0lf | so I could carry around a huge stack of paper with DNA encoded on it and smack creationists with it |
| 17:43.08 | dataw0lf | most of my personal dreams and ambitions involve hurting someone, unfortunately. |
| 17:43.20 | Lone_Wanderer | Sounds like the military was a good career move for you. |
| 17:43.33 | mgeary | dataw0lf: the *head* of the HGP is Christian |
| 17:43.42 | mgeary | he gives fascinating interviews too |
| 17:43.48 | dataw0lf | Christian != Creationist |
| 17:43.50 | mgeary | i just read a great on in National Geographic |
| 17:43.55 | mgeary | well... |
| 17:44.07 | mgeary | yeah, we'd need to agree on terms |
| 17:44.09 | dataw0lf | Christian != taking Bible completely literally. |
| 17:44.16 | Lone_Wanderer | My Dad was the Dean of Ag & Biology at BYU for about eight years. |
| 17:44.19 | dataw0lf | Especially after numerous, numerous revisions by political leaders. |
| 17:44.26 | Lone_Wanderer | They were always squabbling with the religion department over evolution. |
| 17:44.28 | mgeary | you mean the people who believe that the world is 6000 -years old |
| 17:44.51 | Lone_Wanderer | No, those are the young earth guys. There's a healthy crossover between the two, but they aren't always the same. |
| 17:44.52 | dataw0lf | them and those that don't 'believe' in evolution and all of the rst |
| 17:45.44 | dataw0lf | mgeary: wait, wait, are you talking about James Watson? |
| 17:47.31 | dataw0lf | because he's a well known atheist (and kind of a whacko, despite discovering the double helix and winning a nobel prize) |
| 17:49.49 | Lone_Wanderer | http://www.courant.com/news/local/hc-naugfight,0,2219066.story?coll=hc-headlines-local |
| 17:49.57 | Lone_Wanderer | Lady says that Jesus is her business partner. |
| 17:50.08 | Lone_Wanderer | Up next: "Jesus is my CEO" bumper stickers. |
| 17:50.14 | dataw0lf | I just got a new bumper sticker |
| 17:50.23 | dataw0lf | "Jesus is Coming - Everyone Look Busy" |
| 17:50.25 | Lone_Wanderer | Dare I ask? |
| 17:50.54 | Lone_Wanderer | "Soden, who keeps a Bible on her countertop and displays on her wall a business partnership agreement between her and Jesus" |
| 17:51.00 | Lone_Wanderer | I wonder if both partners signed it. |
| 17:51.40 | dataw0lf | I like when christians talk about Einstein believing in a personal God |
| 17:52.13 | Lone_Wanderer | I just keep a copy of The God Delusion nearby. |
| 17:52.24 | dataw0lf | My mom is dog earing my copy |
| 17:52.47 | dataw0lf | so I told her to keep the damn thing, I was getting a new copy. |
| 17:53.43 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v Lone_Wanderer] by ChanServ |
| 17:56.02 | dataw0lf | hehe |
| 17:56.08 | dataw0lf | "Phil Young, owner of a neighboring tattoo store, soon after put out a sign urging motorists to honk twice for Satan." |
| 17:56.12 | dataw0lf | awesome LW |
| 17:56.34 | dataw0lf | http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/hprajani/phun/god-v-satan.png |
| 17:56.59 | Lone_Wanderer | The city told them to take down their signs as per a city ordinance. He did, she didn't. |
| 17:57.13 | dataw0lf | obviously. |
| 17:57.25 | dataw0lf | his was a sarcastic statement |
| 17:57.31 | dataw0lf | hers.... |
| 17:57.32 | dataw0lf | well |
| 17:57.39 | dataw0lf | I don't know how to classify it |
| 17:57.59 | dataw0lf | since my Mom has my copy of The God Delusion! |
| 17:59.38 | dataw0lf | I like the Douglas Adams quote in it, though |
| 18:00.36 | Lone_Wanderer | In the God Delusion? |
| 18:00.38 | Lone_Wanderer | Which quote? |
| 18:00.55 | dataw0lf | I think it's on the wiki, eine moment |
| 18:01.05 | dataw0lf | Religion ... has certain ideas at the heart of it which we call sacred or holy or whatever. What it means is, 'Here is an idea or a notion that you're not allowed to say anything bad about; you're just not. Why not? . because you're not. If someone votes for a party that you don't agree with, you're free to argue about it as much as you like; everybody will have an argument but nobody feels aggrieved by it. ... But on the other hand, if somebody says 'I mustn't |
| 18:02.04 | dataw0lf | I wonder if there will come a time when it will be secular vs all religions |
| 18:02.29 | macnewbold | aren't we already there? other than that "all religions" aren't working together yet? |
| 18:02.45 | thebigdog | anyone running a webcam on linux? |
| 18:02.59 | dataw0lf | macnewbold: well, with the neocon rise in the United States, I would say we're almost there |
| 18:03.28 | dataw0lf | but there's also been a rise of X versus Islam |
| 18:03.43 | dataw0lf | which I wouldn't mind seeing. Islam is a horrific religion. |
| 18:06.05 | dataw0lf | or, perhaps, in better words, is becoming again. |
| 18:06.05 | dataw0lf | There was a rise of moderate Islam there for a while, but Islamic fundamentalists are recruiting extremely well now. |
| 18:06.05 | thebigdog | ~question |
| 18:06.20 | jbot | What do you get if you multiply six by nine? |
| 18:06.34 | dataw0lf | thebigdog: I have before. |
| 18:11.21 | macnewbold | thebigdog's answer: a headache |
| 18:13.37 | *** join/#uphpu burnin (n=burnin@hongkong.machinage.com) |
| 18:36.15 | thebigdog | ~question |
| 18:36.29 | jbot | What do you get if you multiply six by nine? |
| 18:36.30 | macnewbold | ~answer |
| 18:36.32 | jbot | 42 |
| 18:36.59 | thebigdog | ~question anyone running a webcam under linux? |
| 18:39.39 | PoeticIntensity | I think dataw0lf said he did at one point. |
| 18:40.19 | thebigdog | dataw0lf, have you used various types of cams with success? |
| 18:42.38 | *** join/#uphpu _psychic_ (n=_psychic@66.7.114.126) |
| 18:42.38 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v _psychic_] by ChanServ |
| 18:42.57 | thebigdog | burnin thanks |
| 18:43.20 | thebigdog | have you used it with any webcam/video under linux with the logitech? |
| 18:44.11 | PoeticIntensity | got a potentially stupid JS / HTML question: |
| 18:45.16 | burnin | thebigdog, haven't used it in awhile, but I have a Logitech model number V-UM14 webcam which I've used on a workstation and on a headless/X-less box. |
| 18:45.41 | burnin | still have the camera right here, I could plug it into the usb port and see details on the device. |
| 18:46.13 | thebigdog | just curious if the video conferencing stuff works good or not |
| 18:46.29 | PoeticIntensity | is there any reason why using an "alt" tag inside a text input field would be a cause for concern? |
| 18:46.51 | PoeticIntensity | I just need a "label" type attribute for displaying purposes only. |
| 18:47.14 | dataw0lf | thebigdog: gaim-vv is ok |
| 18:47.37 | thebigdog | PoeticIntensity, alt on an input is only valid with type="image" |
| 18:47.47 | PoeticIntensity | that's what I thought. |
| 18:47.55 | thebigdog | dataw0lf, what kind of webcam did you have? |
| 18:48.05 | thebigdog | or recommend |
| 18:48.05 | PoeticIntensity | however.... upon testing, I found both IE 6 and FF both render the alt tag successfully through JS. |
| 18:48.07 | dataw0lf | creative and logitech |
| 18:48.25 | thebigdog | k i was thinking logitech for starters |
| 18:55.07 | *** join/#uphpu beandog (n=sdibb@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 18:55.07 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v beandog] by ChanServ |
| 18:55.18 | beandog | ~lart PoeticIntensity |
| 18:55.18 | jbot | takes out a seltzer bottle and sprays PoeticIntensity in the face. You know, one of those old-school seltzer bottles clowns have? Yeah those. Anyway, consider yourself spritzed |
| 18:55.50 | PoeticIntensity | so..... I think I'm gonna use the alt tag. |
| 18:55.51 | PoeticIntensity | :) |
| 19:05.32 | macnewbold | PoeticIntensity: on your <input type=text id=box2> fields did you try using a <label for=box2>The Second Box</label> tag? |
| 19:05.50 | macnewbold | I haven't played with them much, but I think that's what they're supposed to be fore |
| 19:05.55 | macnewbold | I'm not sure how they render though |
| 19:06.13 | PoeticIntensity | macnewbold good idea.... No.. I hadn't thought of that. |
| 19:06.46 | thebigdog | that is what they are for |
| 19:07.13 | PoeticIntensity | Question: Do ya think that referencing them via getElementByID(box2).label would work? |
| 19:07.16 | thebigdog | also when you click on a label it will act on the item it is for |
| 19:07.20 | PoeticIntensity | right... |
| 19:07.25 | PoeticIntensity | I'm familiar with that functionality... |
| 19:07.29 | thebigdog | no because label is an element |
| 19:07.38 | PoeticIntensity | I'm just doing something I never thought was possible in JS. |
| 19:07.50 | PoeticIntensity | I'm basically trying to create a loop-based form validator. |
| 19:08.10 | thebigdog | explain in more detail what you want to accomplish |
| 19:08.14 | PoeticIntensity | instead of doing if(value=="") then alert("get a clue") for each input field.... |
| 19:08.15 | beandog | youll never do it!! |
| 19:08.17 | beandog | booooooooooo! |
| 19:08.27 | macnewbold | the label tags don't require any js |
| 19:08.31 | PoeticIntensity | I wanna loop through each element in the form. |
| 19:08.53 | thebigdog | the use the form.elements |
| 19:08.53 | PoeticIntensity | if something isn't filled in, I want it to echo "Please enter *label here*" |
| 19:08.57 | macnewbold | put an onchange in each of them that calls a js function |
| 19:09.01 | macnewbold | you could make it loop through all of them, or just check ones they change |
| 19:09.04 | beandog | I think he wants to check all fields at once, versus individually |
| 19:09.10 | macnewbold | or loop through and check all of them when they try to click submit |
| 19:09.12 | thebigdog | macnewbold's idea is good |
| 19:09.19 | thebigdog | onchange events work nice |
| 19:09.26 | PoeticIntensity | finding that label tag has proved to be ..... |
| 19:09.27 | macnewbold | don't forget you'll still need to check server side, since they might circumvent your JS all together |
| 19:09.40 | dataw0lf | oooOooo Into the Wild being made into a movie |
| 19:09.40 | PoeticIntensity | yes... however, what if they never try to click on a required field? |
| 19:09.46 | PoeticIntensity | the onchange event won't be triggered. |
| 19:09.50 | dataw0lf | oooOooo |
| 19:10.03 | PoeticIntensity | macnewbold how have you looped through all of them? |
| 19:10.08 | PoeticIntensity | that's exactly what I'm trying to do. |
| 19:10.14 | *** join/#uphpu scottmorris (n=scott@70.96.176.22) |
| 19:10.17 | PoeticIntensity | via a submit "type="button"" button. |
| 19:10.31 | beandog | couldnt you just have an array of id's to check, and if one is blank (and required) focus on that one and yell at them? |
| 19:10.35 | PoeticIntensity | the only way to display the field they've missed is through the "alt" tag. |
| 19:10.50 | PoeticIntensity | beandog, yes... but I don't wanna create that array... it's already created via JS. |
| 19:11.02 | PoeticIntensity | I can easily use the JS array that's created... |
| 19:11.16 | PoeticIntensity | it's the displaying of the field they've missed I'm after. |
| 19:11.27 | PoeticIntensity | I don't want to display the name because it has underscores in it. |
| 19:11.32 | PoeticIntensity | I don't want to display the ID for the same reason. |
| 19:11.43 | PoeticIntensity | there's got to be a human-readable attribute I can access. |
| 19:11.46 | mgeary | PoeticIntensity: QuickForm is a nice pear library that will do all of that for you |
| 19:11.58 | PoeticIntensity | I've found the "alt" tag works just great. |
| 19:12.07 | PoeticIntensity | my question is: ..... basically.... is that Kosher? |
| 19:12.13 | PoeticIntensity | er.... Christian? |
| 19:12.17 | _psychic_ | title="" |
| 19:12.18 | _psychic_ | ? |
| 19:12.18 | PoeticIntensity | er..... Athiest? |
| 19:12.21 | PoeticIntensity | ah... title... |
| 19:12.23 | PoeticIntensity | haven't tried that one. |
| 19:12.24 | PoeticIntensity | hold on |
| 19:13.26 | thebigdog | PoeticIntensity in web development no that is not "kosher" |
| 19:13.27 | PoeticIntensity | buyah, _psychic_ !! It worked! |
| 19:13.38 | PoeticIntensity | title="First Name" worked great. |
| 19:13.41 | PoeticIntensity | here's the page I'm workin' on. |
| 19:13.46 | _psychic_ | I don't know why you people don't consult me earlier. :) |
| 19:13.48 | PoeticIntensity | http://www.gotoonlineprofits.com/pagetwo.html |
| 19:14.02 | PoeticIntensity | anyone using IE... could you see if it works? |
| 19:14.09 | PoeticIntensity | just click "save" and leave First Name blank. |
| 19:14.09 | beandog | I need your CC# |
| 19:14.17 | PoeticIntensity | har. |
| 19:14.22 | PoeticIntensity | ~lart beandog |
| 19:14.22 | jbot | crushes beandog with a full height scsi disk |
| 19:14.24 | beandog | jerk |
| 19:14.38 | beandog | ~root PoeticIntensity |
| 19:14.40 | jbot | ACTION uses a keylogger to pwnz all PoeticIntensity 's boxen. |
| 19:14.51 | PoeticIntensity | ~tunafart beandog |
| 19:14.52 | jbot | ACTION eats a week-old tuna sandwich with relish and walks over to beandog, leg raised, to let 'em rip. |
| 19:14.56 | thebigdog | PoeticIntensity, it works...alert box is big |
| 19:14.59 | beandog | nooo! |
| 19:15.24 | mgeary | PoeticIntensity: total jailbait at the bottom of the page offering $100. for shame |
| 19:15.28 | PoeticIntensity | thebigdog, thanks... Yeah... it's got a bunch of empty fields it's runnin' through... The box should shrink as titles are added. |
| 19:15.44 | beandog | mgeary: lols |
| 19:15.46 | PoeticIntensity | mgeary, dude.... ya don't need to tell me that. This page makes me sick. |
| 19:16.11 | PoeticIntensity | I've talked all I can to the uppers about this, but they don't care. |
| 19:16.16 | thebigdog | half her boob is hanging out |
| 19:16.25 | thebigdog | nice thebigdog likes |
| 19:16.34 | mgeary | just giving you crap. |
| 19:16.49 | PoeticIntensity | I just wanna get this over with. |
| 19:16.49 | mgeary | i remember when i worked in Germany and we did a proposal for a trucking company website. |
| 19:16.57 | mgeary | had to have skin hanging out all over the site |
| 19:17.13 | mgeary | we didn't get the gig. what a shame |
| 19:17.24 | PoeticIntensity | yup. |
| 19:17.36 | PoeticIntensity | heh... hit the index page of that site. |
| 19:17.38 | PoeticIntensity | it's just as bad. |
| 19:17.49 | PoeticIntensity | http://www.gotoonlineprofits.com |
| 19:17.57 | PoeticIntensity | stupid marketing dept. |
| 19:18.04 | mgeary | ahh, so NOW we see what they're selling |
| 19:18.06 | mgeary | well then |
| 19:18.16 | PoeticIntensity | yup. |
| 19:18.25 | thebigdog | ouch black blue shirt blue background |
| 19:18.32 | PoeticIntensity | yeah... |
| 19:18.33 | PoeticIntensity | sucks. |
| 19:18.43 | wps | who on earth would set their laptop in the sand? |
| 19:18.52 | PoeticIntensity | everyone, duh! |
| 19:19.05 | thebigdog | big boobs o'shannon |
| 19:19.13 | PoeticIntensity | who on earth would conduct business laying on their stomach while working on a laptop? |
| 19:19.21 | beandog | lmao |
| 19:19.37 | beandog | crazy loons. |
| 19:19.59 | beandog | who are you to doubt mr. Brannelly, who received his degree in some unspecified area. |
| 19:20.09 | PoeticIntensity | let's not even go there. |
| 19:20.30 | PoeticIntensity | the almighty dollar is the only thing that matters. |
| 19:20.34 | beandog | "The fact that you get involved immediately, it will change my life. " |
| 19:20.39 | beandog | how is that a testimonial? |
| 19:21.01 | beandog | heck, how are any of those |
| 19:21.08 | PoeticIntensity | no comment. |
| 19:21.24 | PoeticIntensity | I'm *just* interested in getting this validation working and learning something new in the process. |
| 19:21.26 | thebigdog | dont smack PoeticIntensity...he is just getting involved for the money |
| 19:21.32 | PoeticIntensity | ROFL |
| 19:21.36 | PoeticIntensity | ~lart thebigdog |
| 19:21.36 | jbot | accelerates a free AOL cd to 50,000 rpm and lets thebigdog feel it |
| 19:21.45 | PoeticIntensity | awwww yeah! |
| 19:21.45 | beandog | heh |
| 19:21.50 | thebigdog | man i defend and get larted |
| 19:21.59 | beandog | I bet PoeticIntensity is secret Mr Branflake, or whatever |
| 19:22.00 | thebigdog | ok...ok...it was funny |
| 19:22.08 | thebigdog | hahaha |
| 19:22.09 | PoeticIntensity | LMAO |
| 19:22.10 | PoeticIntensity | LMAO |
| 19:22.18 | PoeticIntensity | Mr Branflake. |
| 19:22.20 | PoeticIntensity | ROFL |
| 19:22.29 | beandog | :) |
| 19:22.30 | PoeticIntensity | oh my goodness... |
| 19:23.02 | PoeticIntensity | and models are my daughters.... so.... be quiet ya'll! |
| 19:23.18 | PoeticIntensity | oh my goodness.... |
| 19:23.22 | PoeticIntensity | I've gotta get back to work..... |
| 19:23.24 | thebigdog | PoeticIntensity whens the bbq? |
| 19:23.28 | PoeticIntensity | my stomach hurts. |
| 19:23.35 | PoeticIntensity | eh'? |
| 19:23.38 | beandog | I'm sure their demographic is busty bikini models on the beach with laptops anyway |
| 19:23.59 | PoeticIntensity | thebigdog: whenever, man! |
| 19:24.03 | PoeticIntensity | how 'bout this Friday? |
| 19:24.29 | PoeticIntensity | also.... please don't try to hack the URL. You'll probably root the box. |
| 19:24.32 | thebigdog | cause i expect a laptop and the daughters |
| 19:24.37 | PoeticIntensity | it's so freakin' ancient. |
| 19:24.42 | PoeticIntensity | LOL |
| 19:26.29 | macnewbold | PoeticIntensity: did you get the looping through the elements thing to work? |
| 19:26.35 | PoeticIntensity | yeah |
| 19:26.39 | macnewbold | cool |
| 19:26.42 | PoeticIntensity | I'm titling everything now. |
| 19:26.51 | PoeticIntensity | the more JS matures, the more I like it. |
| 19:26.57 | PoeticIntensity | pretty darn powerful. |
| 19:27.38 | PoeticIntensity | _psychic_ gave "title" as the correct way to provide a human-readable attribute that can be parsed by JS. |
| 19:27.49 | PoeticIntensity | ~applaud _psychic_ |
| 19:27.51 | jbot | ACTION pins _psychic_ to the wall with steak knives, then gives _psychic_ a hanging ovation |
| 19:27.58 | PoeticIntensity | LOL |
| 19:27.59 | _psychic_ | um |
| 19:28.00 | _psychic_ | thanks |
| 19:28.02 | PoeticIntensity | wasn't expecting that. |
| 19:28.05 | _psychic_ | *get me down from here* |
| 19:30.39 | Lone_Wanderer | brb |
| 19:33.13 | wps | PoeticIntensity: who do you work for? |
| 19:33.26 | macnewbold | KAOS |
| 19:33.34 | thebigdog | haah |
| 19:33.34 | wps | ? |
| 19:33.51 | macnewbold | thebigdog is old enough to have seen Maxwell Smart, methinks |
| 19:33.52 | PoeticIntensity | Truenorth Academy |
| 19:34.01 | thebigdog | yep |
| 19:34.16 | thebigdog | macnewbold, i think we are a few months apart is all |
| 19:34.28 | wps | is Online Profits a client? |
| 19:34.32 | thebigdog | but wps is not that young either |
| 19:34.43 | PoeticIntensity | wps: no. It's an internal creation. |
| 19:35.26 | macnewbold | ah, so your bosses are the ones behind (or at least jumping on the bandwagon) of "ebay as a get-rich-quick scheme" |
| 19:35.41 | wps | I hate to say this, but it looks like a scam |
| 19:35.46 | PoeticIntensity | macnewbold: Pretty much. |
| 19:35.54 | macnewbold | thebigdog: yeah, we may be pretty close. I was born in the seventies |
| 19:35.54 | PoeticIntensity | wps: .... All I can do is nod. |
| 19:36.04 | PoeticIntensity | wps: shamefully. |
| 19:36.09 | wps | yeah, definitely looks like a GRQ |
| 19:36.14 | wps | you doing the graphics or just the code? |
| 19:36.17 | *** join/#uphpu _psychic_ (n=_psychic@66.7.114.126) |
| 19:36.17 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v _psychic_] by ChanServ |
| 19:36.21 | PoeticIntensity | just code. |
| 19:36.22 | thebigdog | macnewbold, 75 |
| 19:36.26 | PoeticIntensity | some external company did the code. |
| 19:36.37 | PoeticIntensity | the person creating this thing is...... ummm..... |
| 19:36.41 | wps | good… then I can speak without worrying about offense |
| 19:36.44 | wps | it looks like crap |
| 19:36.49 | PoeticIntensity | Have you ever heard the phrase "Ready Fire Aim"? |
| 19:37.07 | wps | why does everything eBay related have to look like crap? |
| 19:37.19 | PoeticIntensity | He's of the mentality "Fire Fire Fire" |
| 19:37.21 | wps | that lady on page two looks likes she just won a million dollars |
| 19:37.41 | wps | I can't imagine anyone getting that excited about setting something on eBay |
| 19:38.34 | macnewbold | thebigdog: 78. pretty close, but I'm not over 30 yet... ;) |
| 19:38.42 | macnewbold | but I likes the old stuff |
| 19:38.43 | thebigdog | ouch |
| 19:38.51 | thebigdog | yeah 32 this year |
| 19:39.02 | mgeary | kids |
| 19:39.06 | thebigdog | 4 |
| 19:39.09 | *** join/#uphpu jsmith (n=jsmith@000-137-686.area3.spcsdns.net) |
| 19:39.09 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v jsmith] by ChanServ |
| 19:39.09 | mgeary | no |
| 19:39.12 | mgeary | i mean you ;) |
| 19:39.13 | PoeticIntensity | thebigdog: me too! |
| 19:39.14 | macnewbold | 3 for me |
| 19:39.53 | thebigdog | mgeary, not sure your prev ? |
| 19:39.53 | wps | wow… he has us all beat |
| 19:40.28 | macnewbold | ~praise mgeary |
| 19:40.33 | jbot | All hail mgeary! |
| 19:41.00 | beandog | 76++ |
| 19:41.11 | thebigdog | ~smack beandog |
| 19:41.18 | jbot | ACTION smacks beandog upside the head. |
| 19:41.34 | *** join/#uphpu Lone_Wanderer (n=chatzill@cg.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 19:41.34 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v Lone_Wanderer] by ChanServ |
| 19:42.20 | macnewbold | ~yarr |
| 19:42.22 | jbot | aye. yarr. |
| 19:42.29 | mgeary | ~ahoy |
| 19:42.36 | mgeary | ~avast |
| 19:46.12 | beandog | ~scurvy |
| 19:48.02 | mgeary | ~avast |
| 19:48.04 | jbot | ACTION Avast, ye scurvy dogs, hoist the main sail! |
| 19:48.11 | thebigdog | ~topics |
| 19:48.12 | jbot | I believe you meant 'topic'? |
| 19:48.16 | thebigdog | ~topic |
| 19:48.32 | thebigdog | ~topic list |
| 19:49.16 | thebigdog | jbot, topic list |
| 19:50.16 | thebigdog | jbot, topic list #uphpu |
| 19:50.47 | thebigdog | we need a uphpu world of warcraft night |
| 19:56.59 | mgeary | oh lordy. i just got some spam from a chinese company complaining about DuPont defrauding them. Is this what we've sunk to? |
| 20:04.42 | Lone_Wanderer | thebigdog: Indeed we do. Except that we're probably all on different servers. |
| 20:05.25 | Lone_Wanderer | Why does the Chinese company think that you care about DuPont defrauding them? |
| 20:06.04 | mgeary | just watch, the next wave of spam will be about how Billy wouldn't get off the swing at recess |
| 20:06.17 | Lone_Wanderer | I doubt that they think that Americans in general are so charitable that we're going to rise up en masse against DuPont because a company in China claims they gave them a raw deal. |
| 20:07.19 | Lone_Wanderer | Then again, it does say a lot about us that hearing of a multinational corp. defrauding a small Chinese corp causes no real reaction. |
| 20:07.53 | mgeary | no, because this is entirely unsubstantiated |
| 20:08.07 | mgeary | now, if NPR does a story on it, i'll believe it, and *may* be motivated to action |
| 20:08.15 | mgeary | but i get SPAM about it? No, i'm not gonna do anything |
| 20:08.22 | Lone_Wanderer | Even if it were 100% true and they had evidence to support their claims. |
| 20:08.26 | Lone_Wanderer | I'd still just kind of shrug and move on. |
| 20:44.27 | *** join/#uphpu macnewbold (n=mac@cg.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 20:44.27 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o macnewbold] by ChanServ |
| 20:45.04 | Lone_Wanderer | How can I make a div be as tall as its container? |
| 20:45.15 | seant23 | javascript |
| 20:45.17 | Lone_Wanderer | I tried setting height: 100% but that didn't work. |
| 20:45.29 | Lone_Wanderer | That's the only way? =\ |
| 20:45.36 | seant23 | div.style.height = parentElement.offsetHeight |
| 20:45.42 | seant23 | that i've found |
| 20:46.05 | Lone_Wanderer | I think I'd prefer just to set it a specific, reasonable height and leave it at that. |
| 20:46.31 | seant23 | ya, then you can always just use overflow, to add scroller if needed |
| 20:55.36 | mgeary | Lone_Wanderer: there's a trick to it |
| 20:55.44 | mgeary | one sec |
| 20:58.21 | mgeary | here's how you can do it using a table: http://166.70.44.60/dev/mg/css_vertical_fill.htm. i've also got a css example, if i can find it... |
| 20:59.17 | Lone_Wanderer | k |
| 20:59.39 | mgeary | not css, i mean a div example |
| 20:59.43 | mgeary | they both use css |
| 20:59.56 | mgeary | the div one is rather more complicate |
| 20:59.57 | mgeary | d |
| 21:01.01 | mgeary | Lone_Wanderer: i assume you want your content vertically-centered? |
| 21:01.10 | mgeary | that's the hard part with the div approach |
| 21:01.11 | Lone_Wanderer | No, the content of the div should be at the top |
| 21:01.16 | mgeary | oh, well then |
| 21:01.17 | optikal | If I have $array['var1'] = 3, and $array2['var1'] = -1, How would I combine those two to get 2? |
| 21:01.31 | Lone_Wanderer | I just want the div itself (since it has a border) to run the length of the page |
| 21:01.48 | seant23 | if($array['var1']==3 && $array2['var1']==-1) |
| 21:02.13 | optikal | o_O |
| 21:02.46 | Lone_Wanderer | $foo = $array[$var1] + $array2[$var1]; |
| 21:02.55 | Lone_Wanderer | $foo == 2 |
| 21:03.23 | Lone_Wanderer | Note the lack of quotes around $var1 |
| 21:03.23 | optikal | Actually that gives me 3. |
| 21:03.28 | optikal | Err well, 4. |
| 21:03.42 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, are you sure that $arr2[$var1] is really -1? |
| 21:03.48 | optikal | $var1 isn't a variable, its a keyname. |
| 21:03.50 | _psychic_ | anyone in here use JS frameworks like prototype, etc? |
| 21:03.51 | Lone_Wanderer | try var_dump |
| 21:03.53 | optikal | and yes, I am sure. |
| 21:04.02 | seant23 | -1+3 = 2 |
| 21:05.28 | Utah_Dave | optikal: I use jQuery a bit |
| 21:05.37 | mgeary | _psychic_: i've used prototype a bit |
| 21:06.36 | thebigdog | ~uphpu |
| 21:07.02 | jbot | from memory, uphpu is Utah PHP Users Group | uphpu.org |
| 21:07.03 | thebigdog | did we put the lunch up on the website? |
| 21:07.42 | optikal | http://rafb.net/p/dQGKNC54.html |
| 21:07.46 | optikal | Theres my code/the result |
| 21:08.08 | mgeary | not minus |
| 21:08.09 | mgeary | plus |
| 21:08.15 | mgeary | you add a negative |
| 21:08.28 | mgeary | you're currently subtracting a negative, which will add |
| 21:08.29 | optikal | oh god. |
| 21:08.32 | mgeary | :) |
| 21:08.38 | optikal | I do know that, I promise. |
| 21:08.40 | optikal | I'm just a dolt. |
| 21:09.38 | mgeary | Lone_Wanderer: http://166.70.44.60/dev/mg/css_vertical_fill_div.htm |
| 21:09.40 | mgeary | however |
| 21:09.40 | optikal | Thanks :) |
| 21:09.54 | Lone_Wanderer | However! |
| 21:09.57 | *** join/#uphpu gibba (n=gibbawho@209-253-35-18.ip.mcleodusa.net) |
| 21:09.59 | mgeary | the height of the div is figured *without* the border so if you add a border, it will go below the fold |
| 21:10.00 | mgeary | :/ |
| 21:10.28 | mgeary | you can try doing things like making the div's height 99% |
| 21:10.43 | mgeary | i know there are more elaborate solutions to this problem out there |
| 21:10.45 | Lone_Wanderer | ahh |
| 21:10.47 | mgeary | i hate it whenever i have to do it |
| 21:11.04 | Lone_Wanderer | well, that's fine, I'm going to have some space below it as a margin anyway |
| 21:13.57 | synic | what do you guys think of these fellas spam protection method: http://www.jokosher.org/forums/profile.php?mode=register&agreed=true |
| 21:14.14 | synic | notice that they have an image captcha, but they said they still got spam until they put in the question right below it. |
| 21:14.17 | Lone_Wanderer | heh, that's cute. put registered and agreed in the URL. |
| 21:14.22 | synic | "what is the name of our audio editor" |
| 21:14.39 | synic | they said that question stopped all spam. |
| 21:14.50 | Lone_Wanderer | Cool. |
| 21:14.51 | beandog | lol |
| 21:14.52 | synic | even though the name of the audio editor is obviously Jokosher |
| 21:15.01 | beandog | anyone ever used bad behavior? |
| 21:15.13 | beandog | http://www.bad-behavior.ioerror.us/ |
| 21:16.20 | Lone_Wanderer | mgeary: Okay, the div is the full height of the page now, but it's making itself larger than it needs to be. |
| 21:16.21 | synic | the idea is that even if a human spammer comes along, they aren't going to want to actually peruse the site for information that a legit user would already know |
| 21:17.06 | mgeary | Lone_Wanderer: larger than it's container would normally be? |
| 21:17.17 | mgeary | would *otherwise* be? |
| 21:17.42 | Lone_Wanderer | Yeah. |
| 21:17.44 | Lone_Wanderer | Check it out. |
| 21:17.51 | Lone_Wanderer | http://dev.codegreene.com/sm/contact.php |
| 21:17.56 | Lone_Wanderer | the one down the left is the 100% one. |
| 21:18.07 | Lone_Wanderer | It's a submenu for pages that have them, but is there on every page regardless. |
| 21:18.26 | mgeary | so in this case, it's forcing your page to scroll unnecessarily |
| 21:19.12 | Lone_Wanderer | yeah |
| 21:19.17 | mgeary | lemme try something on it |
| 21:19.19 | Lone_Wanderer | k |
| 21:21.06 | seant23 | Lone_Wander: what browser you using? |
| 21:21.17 | thebigdog | ie |
| 21:21.18 | thebigdog | lol |
| 21:21.25 | Lone_Wanderer | FF on a Mac |
| 21:21.25 | thebigdog | opera3 |
| 21:22.15 | seant23 | 10Lone_Wanderer01: I'm on FF2 pc and everything is off far left |
| 21:22.52 | Lone_Wanderer | It's weird that I have to set the body *and* HTML height to 100% just to make this div fill 100% of its parent |
| 21:23.14 | seant23 | 10Lone_Wanderer01: its also adding a Horizontal scroll bar even thou the content fits on the page |
| 21:23.35 | Lone_Wanderer | Reload, seant23. I fixed the horizontal scroll issue on my browser. |
| 21:23.39 | *** join/#uphpu dataw0lf (n=stderr@stderr.ws) |
| 21:23.51 | seant23 | yup no its working |
| 21:23.57 | seant23 | no more far left either |
| 21:25.26 | Lone_Wanderer | cool |
| 21:25.43 | Lone_Wanderer | I just checked and IE on Windows is making the top part way too big too. |
| 21:25.52 | Lone_Wanderer | That's probably a simple issue of padding or something though. |
| 21:27.32 | mgeary | Lone_Wanderer: so ideally the subnav box border would end just above the bottom of the window? |
| 21:27.43 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, just above the footer. |
| 21:27.56 | Lone_Wanderer | I can pull the footer out of the div that contains the subnav. |
| 21:28.45 | mgeary | hmm |
| 21:30.28 | Lone_Wanderer | There, fixed that. |
| 21:30.43 | mgeary | well, not really |
| 21:30.50 | wps | does an apache rewrite rule and an alias do the same thing? |
| 21:30.50 | mgeary | now the footer is always just below the fold |
| 21:30.55 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, one of the divs wasn't getting closed. |
| 21:31.01 | wps | or (put another way), can the same thing be achieved with both? |
| 21:31.05 | Lone_Wanderer | Which is what I fixed. |
| 21:31.22 | mgeary | wps: you could achieve the same thing with both, but you can do more with mod_rewrite |
| 21:31.30 | mgeary | *some of the same things |
| 21:32.10 | wps | if all i want is for /folder_a/file.ext to appear to the user as /folder_b/file.ext an alias is sufficient and easiest, yes? |
| 21:32.21 | seant23 | alias yup |
| 21:32.25 | wps | cool |
| 21:32.26 | wps | thanks |
| 21:32.40 | mgeary | or for that matter you could just do a "ln -s" of your folder_a |
| 21:32.42 | Lone_Wanderer | okay, I'm just giving it a nice, static height. |
| 21:32.53 | seant23 | ya linking would be the simplest |
| 21:33.33 | beandog | cp -s foo bar |
| 21:39.26 | timinator | what's a good XP IRC client? |
| 21:39.48 | jsmith | XChat |
| 21:40.00 | jsmith | google for "silverex xchat" |
| 21:40.04 | timinator | xchat.com? |
| 21:40.10 | timinator | k |
| 21:40.24 | jsmith | Naw, xchat.org charges for the compiled version on Windows. |
| 21:40.26 | jsmith | Which is utter crap |
| 21:40.29 | jsmith | As it's open source |
| 21:40.38 | jsmith | silverex compiles it and gives it away |
| 21:40.48 | Lone_Wanderer | mgeary: Where are you located? |
| 21:40.52 | mgeary | Orem |
| 21:41.01 | Lone_Wanderer | 45k+ |
| 21:41.03 | jsmith | mgeary: At least $50k for a decent programmer |
| 21:41.14 | jsmith | mgeary: And closer to $70k+ for a *good* one |
| 21:41.38 | thebigdog | $90k+ for a bigdog |
| 21:41.45 | PoeticIntensity | LOL |
| 21:41.54 | timinator | 7 figures for a timinator |
| 21:41.57 | thebigdog | oh wait |
| 21:41.58 | PoeticIntensity | is it taboo to put a "how much does everyone make" question out there? |
| 21:42.14 | thebigdog | how much do you make PoeticIntensity |
| 21:42.15 | beandog | $5/hour |
| 21:42.17 | beandog | take that sucker! |
| 21:42.18 | PoeticIntensity | because, quite frankly, I think I make too much. |
| 21:42.32 | Lone_Wanderer | A better question might be "About how much do you think a fair rate for a programmer of your calibre is?" |
| 21:42.35 | PoeticIntensity | if I lost my job - not sure I could recoup. |
| 21:42.40 | Lone_Wanderer | You probably do :p |
| 21:42.43 | Lone_Wanderer | j/k |
| 21:42.45 | beandog | Just sell your stang |
| 21:42.46 | beandog | :) |
| 21:42.49 | PoeticIntensity | ~lart Lone_Wanderer |
| 21:42.49 | jbot | gives Lone_Wanderer a "free" copy of Windows and then charges double for "Upgrades" |
| 21:42.54 | PoeticIntensity | NIIIICE. |
| 21:42.58 | beandog | perfect |
| 21:43.02 | PoeticIntensity | beandog, yes, I could do that. |
| 21:43.07 | beandog | and your house. |
| 21:43.08 | PoeticIntensity | however........ I don't WANT to. |
| 21:43.09 | beandog | and your cat. |
| 21:43.11 | beandog | and your children. |
| 21:43.14 | PoeticIntensity | want my cat? |
| 21:43.16 | beandog | and farm corn. |
| 21:43.17 | thebigdog | i guess it depends on how much other make in your line of work |
| 21:43.26 | PoeticIntensity | *precisely* |
| 21:43.27 | Lone_Wanderer | Is ~$1300 (includes first month's rent) way too much to move into a $600 a month apartment, if you've got a dog? |
| 21:43.29 | PoeticIntensity | hence... the question. |
| 21:43.38 | beandog | Lone_Wanderer: no |
| 21:43.59 | beandog | $600/mo is on the cheap side. |
| 21:44.03 | thebigdog | i dont think i make enough for what i do |
| 21:44.06 | PoeticIntensity | Well... Let me just put it out there.... |
| 21:44.17 | jsmith | thebigdog: You don't! You deserve a 20k raise! |
| 21:44.25 | thebigdog | yeah |
| 21:44.25 | jsmith | Lone_Wanderer: No, that's not too much |
| 21:44.27 | PoeticIntensity | I'm a PHP programmer / system admin. |
| 21:44.43 | Lone_Wanderer | Okay. |
| 21:44.47 | PoeticIntensity | and I make more than $70K per year. |
| 21:45.01 | PoeticIntensity | my resume can be found here: |
| 21:45.02 | Lone_Wanderer | It seems like a heck of a lot to me, but okay :p |
| 21:45.05 | beandog | I dont think thats too atypical. |
| 21:45.12 | beandog | Ive heard of plenty of similar. |
| 21:45.13 | Lone_Wanderer | Not your pay, PI, the cost for moving into a place. |
| 21:45.19 | PoeticIntensity | http://www.poeticintensity.com/resume.html |
| 21:45.43 | PoeticIntensity | Lone_Wanderer - gotcha. |
| 21:45.50 | thebigdog | i make over $90k and do java / sys admin |
| 21:46.06 | thebigdog | but for me that is lower than some guys that make 6 figures for java |
| 21:46.11 | PoeticIntensity | I see. |
| 21:46.21 | thebigdog | but i choose to work for a smaller company |
| 21:46.23 | PoeticIntensity | I've been doing PHP for about 4 years. |
| 21:46.28 | Lone_Wanderer | Well you've got a bachelors, so that gives you an automatic boost there |
| 21:46.29 | thebigdog | where i can do additional things |
| 21:46.41 | Lone_Wanderer | and you've got 4 years experience, which is on the high end for people who are doing PHP |
| 21:46.48 | thebigdog | yeah |
| 21:46.53 | PoeticIntensity | ok... |
| 21:46.55 | thebigdog | but that is good for a php developer |
| 21:46.59 | PoeticIntensity | true. |
| 21:46.59 | Lone_Wanderer | Plus you can do sysadmin stuff. |
| 21:47.05 | PoeticIntensity | right... |
| 21:47.07 | Lone_Wanderer | So I think you're probably worth what you're making. |
| 21:47.17 | thebigdog | when you see php jobs for $10/hr |
| 21:47.19 | mgeary | well, of course, the REAL question is-- |
| 21:47.29 | mgeary | do you make at least that much for your company? |
| 21:47.35 | PoeticIntensity | holy COW. |
| 21:47.45 | PoeticIntensity | I don't make jack for the company directly. |
| 21:47.49 | PoeticIntensity | they see me as a liability. |
| 21:47.51 | PoeticIntensity | HOWEVER. |
| 21:47.57 | Lone_Wanderer | However, if you couldn't recouperate if you lost your job, I know a good financial advisor you might be interested in talking to ;p |
| 21:47.58 | PoeticIntensity | if I didn't exist.... |
| 21:48.17 | PoeticIntensity | they wouldn't *able* to make half of what they currently make. |
| 21:48.23 | thebigdog | Lone_Wanderer ill take it from here |
| 21:48.25 | PoeticIntensity | so, in essence, yes. |
| 21:48.29 | PoeticIntensity | LOL |
| 21:48.33 | thebigdog | ok so this is what you need to do |
| 21:48.33 | mgeary | as a potential employer, my number one concern is that whatever a programmer might cost me, it's imperative that they *make* me more |
| 21:48.34 | PoeticIntensity | you guys are awesome. |
| 21:48.43 | PoeticIntensity | of course. |
| 21:49.05 | thebigdog | but also you need to think in terms of what you bring to the table in terms of skills |
| 21:49.06 | mgeary | but this is a dev shop. It sounds, PoeticIntensity, like you're in the "overhead" category where you work |
| 21:49.13 | PoeticIntensity | yup. |
| 21:49.13 | mgeary | which is fine |
| 21:49.15 | PoeticIntensity | sure am. |
| 21:49.16 | thebigdog | for me i do all sys admin and network stuff |
| 21:49.17 | beandog | overhead? |
| 21:49.19 | beandog | what does that mean |
| 21:49.23 | thebigdog | plus all the programming |
| 21:49.28 | thebigdog | so it is hard to replace me |
| 21:49.30 | mgeary | it means that PoeticIntensity's company doesn't resell his work |
| 21:49.35 | PoeticIntensity | yup. |
| 21:49.36 | beandog | oh |
| 21:49.41 | PoeticIntensity | no sellie programming here. |
| 21:49.42 | Lone_Wanderer | PI: Go read Ask The Headhunter. He talks about attempting to quantify your value to your employer. |
| 21:49.49 | PoeticIntensity | I create the infrastructure. |
| 21:50.05 | PoeticIntensity | Lone_Wanderer, Who is "The Headhunter"? |
| 21:50.09 | beandog | the fun jobs are doing coding + sysadmin |
| 21:50.11 | Lone_Wanderer | The infrastructure without which the company wouldn't be able to do several important things. |
| 21:50.11 | beandog | I tell you whot. |
| 21:50.19 | Lone_Wanderer | He's Nick Something-Greek-sounding. |
| 21:50.32 | Lone_Wanderer | Who is a headhunter who also writes articles about how to land a good job, among other things. |
| 21:51.07 | PoeticIntensity | interesting... |
| 21:51.13 | PoeticIntensity | heh... about reselling my work.. |
| 21:51.20 | mgeary | ? |
| 21:51.26 | PoeticIntensity | I'm fairly sure I could sell the admin system I've built for close to $100,000.00 |
| 21:51.48 | PoeticIntensity | I get that by talking to some of the exec (and the CTO) here. |
| 21:52.02 | PoeticIntensity | but.... alas.... it's a piece of crap. |
| 21:52.04 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, it also enables their salespeople, who are probably selling X% more a year because of you. |
| 21:52.05 | PoeticIntensity | so we don't. |
| 21:52.06 | PoeticIntensity | :) |
| 21:52.14 | PoeticIntensity | Lone_Wanderer, true. |
| 21:53.08 | Lone_Wanderer | So take the amount that all the salespeople make the company in a year, figure out what it'd be at X% less, and then take the difference and you can say "I made the company $Y last year." |
| 21:53.34 | thebigdog | Lone_Wanderer is doign that for mac |
| 21:54.32 | Lone_Wanderer | You can also look at other ways you enable the company to do business more efficiently, and then put them all together into a line-item dealybob. |
| 21:54.52 | beandog | good ol bob. |
| 21:54.57 | Lone_Wanderer | And his dealys. |
| 21:55.08 | beandog | tell you what |
| 21:55.23 | PoeticIntensity | dang, dude.... |
| 21:55.31 | PoeticIntensity | this company makes around a million dollars a week. |
| 21:55.46 | beandog | and they consider you a liability? |
| 21:55.48 | PoeticIntensity | so.... I'm probably making the company around 5 million per year. |
| 21:55.55 | Lone_Wanderer | Then you don't have to push very hard to demonstrate your value. |
| 21:56.02 | PoeticIntensity | not at all... |
| 21:56.04 | beandog | all those ebay sales! |
| 21:56.08 | PoeticIntensity | LOL |
| 21:56.41 | PoeticIntensity | which is why, when I threatened to leave - they increased without too much arm-twisting. |
| 21:57.06 | Lone_Wanderer | heh, so they already know |
| 21:57.16 | PoeticIntensity | yup... but they're businessmen. |
| 21:57.38 | Lone_Wanderer | Are you friends with any salespeople? |
| 21:57.38 | PoeticIntensity | and all of THAT makes me wonder what I could do if I started my own business... |
| 21:57.50 | PoeticIntensity | but that is a much more complex, and completely different conversation. |
| 21:58.00 | PoeticIntensity | heh... my bro is a good salesman... but he doesn't know it. |
| 21:59.09 | timinator | running your own gig is very rewarding |
| 21:59.30 | mgeary | yes, but you come to a key decision |
| 21:59.55 | mgeary | do you limit your capacity, and stay involved in development? or do you expand and resign yourself to more managerial duties? |
| 22:00.20 | mgeary | that's where we're at now. We're a very small shop, and we're basically turning (loads of) work away while we decide |
| 22:00.24 | PoeticIntensity | gah..... not yet. |
| 22:00.42 | PoeticIntensity | they keep pressin' me to get into "management" here, but that scares me. |
| 22:00.59 | PoeticIntensity | I've seen toooooo much crappy code in my career to trust other people to do my work. |
| 22:01.15 | PoeticIntensity | I dunno, man. |
| 22:01.19 | PoeticIntensity | I'm a pretty bad manager. |
| 22:02.33 | PoeticIntensity | I'm so hard on myself, it's hard not to translate that onto others I manage. |
| 22:02.33 | PoeticIntensity | (would manage) |
| 22:02.34 | PoeticIntensity | mgeary, what kind of shop to you run? |
| 22:02.34 | mgeary | a very small design & development shop. |
| 22:02.40 | mgeary | we've got a couple of internet-based products/applications that are starting to get some traction |
| 22:02.53 | mgeary | so our income is roughly evenly split between product revenue and project revenue |
| 22:03.07 | mgeary | we have zero sales & marketing force |
| 22:03.12 | mgeary | work purely by referral |
| 22:04.05 | mgeary | kind of like Hitch :) |
| 22:11.13 | Lone_Wanderer | Only you program stuff, instead of helping people fall in love. |
| 22:11.27 | Lone_Wanderer | But other than that, exactly like Hitch ;) |
| 22:15.12 | mgeary | :) |
| 22:18.03 | PoeticIntensity | that's the way to do it, man.... |
| 22:18.19 | PoeticIntensity | If you're working like that, it means you do your work *very* well. |
| 22:18.41 | mgeary | ;) |
| 22:18.57 | PoeticIntensity | Because, as I understand it, if someone comes to me and says "Man... *never* do business with mgeary because his product killed my goat".... I tend to not do business with mgeary. |
| 22:19.15 | PoeticIntensity | and vice-versa. |
| 22:19.18 | PoeticIntensity | good job, man. |
| 22:19.21 | PoeticIntensity | that's tough to pull off. |
| 22:19.40 | PoeticIntensity | Now, you need to buy yourself a muscle / sports car and come join us on the Salt Flats! |
| 22:19.48 | beandog | heh |
| 22:19.52 | mgeary | heh. well i did just by that Tacoma i was talking about |
| 22:19.58 | mgeary | not sure i'd call it a muscle car |
| 22:20.00 | PoeticIntensity | niiice! |
| 22:20.04 | PoeticIntensity | bring it on down! |
| 22:20.16 | PoeticIntensity | macnewbold will tell ya how fun it is - even without a sports car. |
| 22:20.24 | macnewbold | it rocks |
| 22:20.33 | macnewbold | my car puts the Sports in Sports Utility Vehicle |
| 22:20.37 | beandog | I was thinking about going to the flats this weekend. |
| 22:20.37 | PoeticIntensity | hehe.... |
| 22:20.42 | PoeticIntensity | that *was* pretty impressive. |
| 22:20.45 | macnewbold | hehe |
| 22:20.47 | macnewbold | it was fun |
| 22:20.55 | PoeticIntensity | we're probably gonna be doing it again in May sometime. |
| 22:20.57 | PoeticIntensity | possibly early June. |
| 22:21.03 | macnewbold | when did you have a goat, PoeticIntensity? |
| 22:21.17 | mgeary | before i killed it |
| 22:21.23 | PoeticIntensity | *sigh* until I purchased mgeary's "death to all goats" product. |
| 22:21.28 | PoeticIntensity | He should have warned me it'd kill my goat! |
| 22:21.29 | mgeary | see? |
| 22:21.48 | PoeticIntensity | LOL |
| 22:22.24 | mgeary | Coming soon on NBC: The latest in your favorite series. "Law and Order: When Goats Attack" |
| 22:23.16 | PoeticIntensity | sweeeeet. |
| 22:23.25 | PoeticIntensity | okay, guys.... I've got my form validation working now. |
| 22:23.35 | PoeticIntensity | it doesn't actually submit, but I feel pretty good about my javascript. |
| 22:23.42 | mgeary | "High in the Andes, a highly-trained force of goat watchers patrol the mountains, looking for trouble. These are their stories" |
| 22:23.42 | PoeticIntensity | http://www.gotoonlineprofits.com/pagetwo.html |
| 22:24.18 | mgeary | does it do serverside validation as well? |
| 22:24.25 | PoeticIntensity | not yet. |
| 22:24.26 | PoeticIntensity | but it will. |
| 22:24.35 | mgeary | (typo on the page: "wholesal") |
| 22:24.39 | mgeary | fyi |
| 22:24.39 | PoeticIntensity | it's not gonna let any crap through. |
| 22:24.49 | PoeticIntensity | (thanks, but that's someone else's problem... heh) |
| 22:24.53 | mgeary | heh |
| 22:25.06 | PoeticIntensity | this page generally wants to make me puke. |
| 22:25.19 | PoeticIntensity | I look at it and I get "Puke, please". |
| 22:25.28 | wps | that's a lovely Camisoles that young lass is wearing |
| 22:26.07 | PoeticIntensity | bleh... |
| 22:26.13 | PoeticIntensity | it's a shame that sex sells. |
| 22:26.20 | wps | hard to focus on much of anything else on that page |
| 22:26.22 | PoeticIntensity | because - holy crap - it does. |
| 22:26.25 | PoeticIntensity | yup. |
| 22:26.50 | mgeary | you know, PoeticIntensity, i've actually got a reasonably abstracted JS validation function that i could have just sent you. I don't use it any more since my home-grown Framework uses QuickForm to do both client- and server-side validation |
| 22:27.11 | PoeticIntensity | nah.... I actually really liked building it. |
| 22:27.14 | PoeticIntensity | good JS refresher... |
| 22:27.19 | PoeticIntensity | I usually do PHP all day. |
| 22:27.20 | PoeticIntensity | every day. |
| 22:27.35 | PoeticIntensity | I learned the "elements" attribute. |
| 22:27.39 | PoeticIntensity | or method... |
| 22:27.41 | PoeticIntensity | or.... whatever it is. |
| 22:27.48 | mgeary | property :) |
| 22:27.52 | PoeticIntensity | there ya go. |
| 22:28.21 | mgeary | The Unforgettable Fire++++++ |
| 22:28.33 | PoeticIntensity | U2 |
| 22:28.34 | PoeticIntensity | ? |
| 22:28.58 | PoeticIntensity | Man.... I remember people wearing U2 jackets in jr. high. |
| 22:29.06 | PoeticIntensity | they've been around forever. |
| 22:29.10 | PoeticIntensity | and with good reason.. |
| 22:29.12 | PoeticIntensity | their music rocks. |
| 22:29.14 | PoeticIntensity | consistently. |
| 22:29.24 | PoeticIntensity | Vertigo? Love it. |
| 22:29.44 | mgeary | they've had some good stuff in the last few years, but IMHO it just doesn't compare to the Unforgettable Fire era |
| 22:29.54 | PoeticIntensity | Joshua Tree? |
| 22:30.24 | timinator | mgeary: I'll take a copy |
| 22:30.53 | timinator | (I have little client-side validation) |
| 22:30.59 | mgeary | oh, sure. one sec |
| 22:33.16 | mgeary | Joshua Tree was pretty good. but the peaks highs weren't as Blood Red Sky & Unforgettable Fire |
| 22:33.29 | mgeary | Rattle & Hum was hit-n-miss |
| 22:33.36 | mgeary | Achtung baby had, like, 3 good songs |
| 22:33.39 | mgeary | Zooropa sucked |
| 22:33.53 | mgeary | October and War were great |
| 22:35.45 | *** join/#uphpu seant23_ (n=seant23@69.27.17.186) |
| 22:40.52 | mindjuju | did U2 sell out? |
| 22:42.55 | mgeary | well... they did something |
| 22:42.57 | mgeary | timinator: http://166.70.44.60/dev/mg/jsvalidation/ |
| 22:43.10 | mgeary | disclaimer, this is function-based, not OOP |
| 22:43.24 | mgeary | i haven't used it for a while, but for general JS form validation, it's worked for me |
| 22:43.55 | timinator | cool, thanks |
| 22:44.22 | mindjuju | the last i heard U2 was Achtung Baby! |
| 22:44.36 | mgeary | sometime we ought to have a chat about genericized form validation |
| 22:45.53 | beandog | meh |
| 22:46.03 | beandog | ive got a class that will validate every form input type you could possibly throw at it. |
| 22:46.12 | beandog | er, function. |
| 22:46.13 | beandog | in a class. |
| 22:46.34 | timinator | may I have a copy of that too beandog? |
| 22:46.37 | beandog | fun shtuff. |
| 22:46.42 | beandog | sure, hold on, lemme dig it up. |
| 22:46.43 | mgeary | oh yeah? how do you define "validate"? |
| 22:46.47 | beandog | youll see |
| 22:46.49 | beandog | it uses regexp on everything |
| 22:47.05 | timinator | sounds slow |
| 22:47.10 | mgeary | nah |
| 22:47.11 | beandog | nah. |
| 22:47.13 | mgeary | heh |
| 22:47.15 | beandog | regexp supah fast. |
| 22:47.21 | timinator | okay |
| 22:47.27 | mgeary | QuickForm has a nice approach, it'll do simple validation, but you can also define super-specific rules |
| 22:47.49 | timinator | I'll trust ya... I avoid regexp unless absolutely necessary |
| 22:47.57 | mgeary | and it wraps it all in one $form->validate() method |
| 22:48.09 | beandog | http://rafb.net/p/pwT1KL83.html |
| 22:48.11 | mgeary | and will do client-side validation on a per-rule basis |
| 22:48.12 | beandog | there ya go |
| 22:48.17 | timinator | thanks |
| 22:48.21 | beandog | I havent looked at t hat in ~ 4 months, so there might be a bug or two in there. |
| 22:48.32 | beandog | I know I found one the other day in the numeric one .. or something. |
| 22:48.38 | beandog | wasnt checking for negative #s |
| 22:48.39 | beandog | or soemthing. |
| 22:48.53 | mgeary | nice |
| 22:49.13 | timinator | cool |
| 22:49.14 | beandog | the phone one is picky |
| 22:49.19 | beandog | because I got a lot of invalid phone #s |
| 22:49.24 | beandog | so checks for 111-1111 |
| 22:49.25 | beandog | etc. |
| 22:49.33 | beandog | preg_match('/0{6,}|1{6,}|2{6,}|3{6,}|4{6,}|5{6,}|7{6,}|8{6,}|9{6,}/', $fmt) |
| 22:49.38 | mgeary | of course, this is PHP, not JS |
| 22:49.42 | beandog | Im sure theres a better way to write that |
| 22:49.49 | beandog | of course, since you have to validate server side anyway. |
| 22:49.56 | mgeary | yeah |
| 22:50.27 | beandog | thats actually one function part of a class I just call 'class common' |
| 22:50.33 | beandog | which I can paste if you want .. .just generic functions. |
| 22:50.38 | beandog | been using it for a while. |
| 22:51.18 | beandog | http://rafb.net/p/RHHqd338.html |
| 22:52.30 | beandog | mgeary: yah Ive looked at form classes, before |
| 22:52.38 | beandog | never liked any of em... started writing my own as well. |
| 22:52.57 | beandog | http://rafb.net/p/08CMPJ47.html |
| 22:53.04 | beandog | ^^ which is that, *known* to have bugs, so don't use it. |
| 22:53.27 | mgeary | here's what i do-- |
| 22:53.35 | beandog | I dont like how the other form classes make you dump everything in one class |
| 22:53.45 | beandog | er, variable and then dump it out |
| 22:53.47 | mgeary | i have a generic ActiveRecord Class, from which all database-table classes inherit |
| 22:53.56 | beandog | that one lets you print out individual ones |
| 22:54.10 | beandog | anyway, *blather* |
| 22:54.32 | mgeary | this AR class has an "establishQuickformAttributes" method, which accepts a QuickForm object instance, and adds elements for each field in the table. The fields can be typed to any form element type |
| 22:54.40 | mgeary | and fields can be tagged as "required" |
| 22:54.43 | beandog | mgeary: now that is sweet |
| 22:54.52 | beandog | since the biggest pain is writing frontends to DBs |
| 22:54.52 | mgeary | it's an awesome system |
| 22:54.58 | beandog | mgeary: you gotta hook me up with that one |
| 22:55.18 | mgeary | we should have a UG meeting in Utah Valley sometime, and i could show it off |
| 22:55.32 | beandog | sounds good |
| 22:55.35 | beandog | don't forget :) |
| 22:55.44 | mgeary | i just added a "many-to-one" relationship manager. it automatically handles the relationships |
| 22:55.52 | beandog | Ive been thinking of doing the same thing with my form one .. just clean it up and present on it. |
| 22:55.55 | mgeary | basically, i'm shamelessly stealing ideas from django :) |
| 22:56.06 | beandog | heh |
| 22:56.17 | mgeary | it's completely revolutionized how i code |
| 22:56.18 | beandog | shamelessly is the best way of them all |
| 22:56.38 | beandog | well theres nothing more I hate than writing frontends to edit data on the backend. |
| 22:56.50 | beandog | Especially since its always the *same* thing over and over and over and over ... |
| 22:56.53 | mgeary | yeah, i get that rpretty much for free |
| 22:57.12 | beandog | any chance of getting a copy? |
| 22:57.28 | mgeary | maybe |
| 22:57.54 | mgeary | :) |
| 22:58.33 | mgeary | what we should do is let me present on it, to get some ideas out there, and then share the code, so i can steal and integrate all your good ideas too |
| 22:58.45 | mgeary | i could even host a svn server with it |
| 22:58.57 | mgeary | let people check in/out updates |
| 22:59.49 | mgeary | here's something possibly interesting-- |
| 22:59.51 | beandog | right on |
| 23:01.02 | mgeary | i was dealing early on with the issue of where to store the description of the class properties. Basically the DB fields. I initially figured, since you *have* to have fields in the DB, why not just have the class hit the DB with a DESCRIBE command, parse that, and establish the field definitions automatically? |
| 23:01.08 | mgeary | so that's what i did for quite some time |
| 23:01.12 | mgeary | it made it very convenient |
| 23:01.24 | beandog | makes sense |
| 23:01.28 | mgeary | however, it adds overhead *every* time you instantiate an object |
| 23:01.28 | mindjuju | ~rlart |
| 23:01.40 | jbot | whips seant23_ with a wet and grimy noodle just because |
| 23:01.40 | beandog | right. |
| 23:01.40 | beandog | unless you cached it |
| 23:02.00 | mgeary | yeah, i guess i could have built a caching mechanism |
| 23:02.02 | PoeticIntensity | hey... leave seant23_ alone. |
| 23:02.04 | PoeticIntensity | ya meanie. |
| 23:02.10 | beandog | I use Cache_Lite |
| 23:02.11 | beandog | works wonders. |
| 23:02.16 | mgeary | never used it. link? |
| 23:02.19 | beandog | pear |
| 23:02.22 | mgeary | ah |
| 23:02.22 | PoeticIntensity | because beandog is "Lite" |
| 23:02.37 | mgeary | i'll check it out. my ActiveRecord does have a built in cache, but it's at the function level |
| 23:02.41 | mgeary | within an object instnace |
| 23:03.06 | mgeary | anyway, i finally gave in, on a new project, and manually added the db definition to a method that gets called in the constructor. |
| 23:03.34 | mgeary | huge performance boost. comparatively speaking. A page that was taking .45 seconds to render is now taking .05 seconds |
| 23:03.39 | mgeary | whee |
| 23:03.49 | PoeticIntensity | wow. |
| 23:03.57 | mindjuju | meh |
| 23:03.58 | PoeticIntensity | that's niice. |
| 23:04.04 | PoeticIntensity | ~lart mindjuju |
| 23:04.04 | jbot | does a little 'dpkg -P mindjuju' action |
| 23:04.08 | mgeary | and of course, doing it this way means that you can generate/reconstruct the database tables by calling a method of the object |
| 23:04.19 | mgeary | $active_record->generateSQL() |
| 23:04.21 | mgeary | or whatever |
| 23:04.35 | mgeary | so you could then rig up an install script to build your DB on a new server |
| 23:04.37 | *** part/#uphpu seant23_ (n=seant23@69.27.17.186) |
| 23:04.40 | mgeary | something to think about anyway |
| 23:04.47 | PoeticIntensity | and that method is only called sparingly? |
| 23:04.55 | mgeary | almost never |
| 23:05.21 | mgeary | but in an install scenario, or when you radically modify a table definition |
| 23:05.26 | PoeticIntensity | that's quite cool, mgeary |
| 23:05.34 | PoeticIntensity | good stuff to chew on, anyway. |
| 23:05.38 | mgeary | yeah |
| 23:05.55 | PoeticIntensity | ok. |
| 23:06.21 | PoeticIntensity | I think I'm outta here. |
| 23:06.21 | PoeticIntensity | I haven't taken a lunch today. |
| 23:06.26 | PoeticIntensity | ooohh boy. |
| 23:07.05 | mgeary | ~dance |
| 23:07.08 | jbot | ACTION does a pole dance with the Peekabo Pole Dance Kit |
| 23:07.23 | mindjuju | oh, is this goign to be a dance off like in Starsky and Hutch |
| 23:07.31 | PoeticIntensity | don't you know it. |
| 23:07.36 | PoeticIntensity | put up your dukes, boy! |
| 23:08.12 | PoeticIntensity | I've got band practice tonight! |
| 23:08.17 | mindjuju | k, cya |
| 23:08.24 | PoeticIntensity | chaoooooooooooooooooooooooooo! |
| 23:08.31 | mindjuju | i'll pick a fight with somebody else , maybe utah_dave |
| 23:09.54 | mgeary | ~bodyslam mindjuju |
| 23:09.56 | jbot | ACTION jumps off the high rope and lands on mindjuju with a deafening thud |
| 23:10.16 | mindjuju | ~dhit mgeary |
| 23:10.20 | jbot | ACTION appears right behind mgeary and slaps him in the back of the head |
| 23:10.57 | mgeary | ~chuckfact |
| 23:10.59 | jbot | chuckfact is probably Chuck Norris hand is the only hand that can beat a Royal Flush |
| 23:11.10 | mindjuju | oh, that's so well timed! |
| 23:13.35 | macnewbold | ~crackskulls Bruce_Lee |
| 23:13.37 | jbot | ACTION grabs Bruce_Lee and mgeary 's heads and slams them together knocking both unconscious. Jbot then turns to macnewbold to see who else needs a wallop. |
| 23:13.49 | macnewbold | ~retaliate |
| 23:14.08 | Bruce_Lee | Gosh! |
| 23:16.37 | mgeary | ~~taunt |
| 23:16.40 | mgeary | ~taunt |
| 23:16.41 | jbot | !lart dpkg |
| 23:16.49 | mgeary | uhh. |
| 23:17.02 | Bruce_Lee | talk about anticlimatical |
| 23:18.01 | Bruce_Lee | cya |
| 23:18.02 | beandog | heh |
| 23:23.38 | timinator | later guys |
| 23:24.00 | timinator | have a good night |
| 23:24.05 | Bruce_Lee | laters! |
| 23:25.47 | mgeary | yeah, i'm out as well |
| 23:26.01 | *** part/#uphpu mgeary (n=mgeary@166.70.44.49) |
| 23:34.04 | Lone_Wanderer | Something just reminded me of this... *looks it up* |
| 23:34.24 | Lone_Wanderer | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W91sqAs-_-g |
| 23:34.28 | Lone_Wanderer | Alanis "my hump" parody. |
| 23:37.10 | *** join/#uphpu _psychic_ (n=_psychic@c-67-186-222-175.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 23:37.10 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v _psychic_] by ChanServ |
| 23:37.36 | Bruce_Lee | hey Lone_Wanderer , is it SFW ? |
| 23:37.50 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, aside for the lyrics, yes. |
| 23:38.31 | *** part/#uphpu Utah_Dave (n=boucha@72-166-51-162.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 23:40.49 | thebigdog | they call me bruce leroy |
| 23:41.16 | Bruce_Lee | i just saw that movie for the first time a little while ago |
| 23:41.22 | Bruce_Lee | The Last Dragon |
| 23:45.17 | thebigdog | its a great show |
| 23:45.35 | thebigdog | i need to add that to my netflix |
| 23:46.31 | Lone_Wanderer | mgeary left :'( |
| 23:46.41 | Lone_Wanderer | Maybe I'll do the IE thing tomorrow. |
