| 00:00.06 | mindjuju | do you know a site that has more info on what you guys were talking about? |
| 00:01.25 | dataw0lf | Utah_Dave: Correct, that's the idea. |
| 00:01.47 | Utah_Dave | mindjuju: it's not too tough. An old coworker showed me how to do it a couple of years ago |
| 00:01.52 | brasto | i'm creating one of my own, but until i have it going, i'm looking for searchability (most cms's can do this), and a synchronized category schema to main menu |
| 00:02.04 | Utah_Dave | I was actually thinking of doing a UPHPU presentation on the subject, but haven't gotten around to it |
| 00:02.20 | mindjuju | sounds interesting |
| 00:02.22 | dataw0lf | mindjuju: http://home.insight.rr.com/procana/masking.html |
| 00:02.32 | brasto | i want it to follow some best practices: broad categories such as Software, Hardware, Networking, Security |
| 00:03.58 | brasto | Each Category should have subcategories - something that still categorizes things, but does not name a product yet. e.g.: software -> Operating System, application, server, office |
| 00:04.21 | bradym | brasto: For what you want to do, blog software like wordpress would be the easiest way to go.. but might be tough to get the menus quite how you want them.. |
| 00:04.32 | dataw0lf | use Django |
| 00:04.33 | bradym | it might be easier to setup something like that in drupal |
| 00:04.40 | mindjuju | thx dataw0lf, reading it now to see what up |
| 00:04.55 | dataw0lf | mindjuju: http://atrevida.comprenica.com/atrtut01.html and atrtut02.html on that same server |
| 00:05.24 | brasto | A third tier should name products within each subcategory |
| 00:06.08 | brasto | article titles should correspond with problem types - the fourth tier |
| 00:07.14 | bradym | brasto: http://drupal.org/node/55192 |
| 00:08.10 | brasto | bradym - that looks cool |
| 00:08.28 | brasto | dataw0lf - were you suggesting Django to me or someone else? |
| 00:08.37 | dataw0lf | suggesting it to you. |
| 00:09.23 | brasto | ok, i'll check that out as well |
| 00:13.07 | brasto | dataw0lf - django is all python driven? |
| 00:14.02 | dataw0lf | correct. |
| 00:14.13 | dataw0lf | well, it's powered by awesomeness too. |
| 00:15.08 | brasto | lol |
| 00:15.31 | brasto | i'll give it a try, but it'll be my first python thing |
| 00:17.09 | Utah_Dave | dataw0lf: I remember we had a problem where the bitmask got too big for PHP to handle. |
| 00:17.16 | Utah_Dave | I'll have to figure that out |
| 00:21.45 | Utah_Dave | The php docs say size of an integer is platform-dependent, but is usually about two billion (32 bits signed) |
| 00:22.06 | Utah_Dave | dataw0lf: so that means I should be able to handle 32 permissions in that variable |
| 00:22.58 | dataw0lf | easiest way would be to create another field if you need to grow |
| 00:22.58 | Utah_Dave | am I thinking that through correctly? |
| 00:22.58 | dataw0lf | Utah_Dave: yes. |
| 00:23.05 | Utah_Dave | I think I'm going to write a little library to abstract that all out a little |
| 00:23.15 | dataw0lf | every sequential value (1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32..) is just that position's bit turned on |
| 00:23.23 | dataw0lf | probably a good idea |
| 00:24.14 | dataw0lf | a check_perm() func would do ya fine |
| 00:24.40 | dataw0lf | or a method to some sort of user object |
| 00:24.54 | Utah_Dave | yeah, that's what I'm thinking |
| 00:25.24 | dataw0lf | I'd load all the permission values into constants |
| 00:25.33 | Utah_Dave | I already have a small class that manages the login, I think one more little method in there will work |
| 00:26.07 | dataw0lf | then do a $user->check_perm(PERM_ADMIN) type dealie. |
| 00:26.30 | dataw0lf | check_perm would just AND the given permission to the user->perms attribute and return true or false |
| 00:32.11 | *** part/#uphpu brasto (n=brasto@71-219-149-94.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 00:34.41 | dataw0lf | herlo: hey, I'd like to be involved with UTOS, if you guys need help, btw. |
| 00:51.02 | *** part/#uphpu bradym (n=bradym@bradym.agsci.usu.edu) |
| 00:55.54 | Utah_Dave | dataw0lf: thanks for your help. I think this is going to work out really well. |
| 00:56.14 | dataw0lf | np bro |
| 00:57.52 | herlo | dataw0lf: cool |
| 00:57.59 | herlo | dataw0lf: http://plan.utos.org |
| 00:58.07 | dataw0lf | herlo: yea, checking it out right now |
| 00:58.15 | dataw0lf | herlo: may have some potential speakers, too |
| 00:58.20 | dataw0lf | when is your guys' call for papers? |
| 00:58.29 | herlo | very soon |
| 00:58.37 | herlo | we're oging to be talking about it tonight |
| 00:59.07 | dataw0lf | awesome, I have a couple people who'd be well qualified, and I might submit a paper as well. |
| 00:59.27 | herlo | dataw0lf: cool, we'll hopefully be releasing details in the next week or two |
| 00:59.55 | dataw0lf | herlo: cool, I'll try to stay updated. |
| 01:00.11 | herlo | dataw0lf: expect a major announcement soon |
| 01:01.03 | dataw0lf | herlo: cya |
| 01:34.50 | mindjuju | anybody around? |
| 01:36.27 | dataw0lf | for a moment, sir |
| 01:37.06 | mindjuju | hey, was just looking to find out where people are posting jobs |
| 01:37.15 | mindjuju | i'm not looking,but need to hire |
| 01:37.31 | mindjuju | hate that monster charges $600 to post job |
| 01:37.40 | mindjuju | dice - $400, etc |
| 01:40.05 | dataw0lf | dice > monster, in my experience. |
| 01:40.18 | dataw0lf | I'd also post on every user list you can get your hands on. |
| 01:40.21 | dataw0lf | And Craigs List |
| 01:40.30 | dataw0lf | good, free employment recruitment tools |
| 01:40.42 | mindjuju | true that, didn't think craigs list |
| 01:40.49 | mindjuju | i'll post there, thx! |
| 01:43.48 | dataw0lf | np |
| 01:45.04 | macnewbold | if you're ever looking for Ruby on Rails people, 37signals (DHH's group) has a job post board too |
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| 04:23.53 | beandog | sure is quiet. |
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| 04:44.14 | Utah_Dave | yup |
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| 15:49.31 | dataw0lf | g'mornin |
| 15:49.45 | Utah_Dave | morning |
| 15:52.01 | mindjuju | mornin' ya'll |
| 15:54.34 | dataw0lf | sup sup |
| 15:58.03 | Utah_Dave | man, jquery rocks. |
| 15:58.25 | Utah_Dave | I started using it this morning and I'm already sorting tables and stuff |
| 15:59.11 | dataw0lf | jquery? |
| 15:59.43 | Lone_Wanderer | It sounds suspiciously like a Java thing... |
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| 16:01.19 | dataw0lf | ah, JavaScript lib |
| 16:02.20 | _psychic_ | jquery().likesTo().stringAlotOfThingsTogether().whichSometimes().makesItHard().to().read(); |
| 16:02.37 | _psychic_ | I can't decide if its cool, or if its just a train wreck |
| 16:03.09 | dataw0lf | jquery().Sounds().Too().Much().Like().Java() |
| 16:04.36 | macnewbold | wow, that's ugly stuff |
| 16:04.56 | macnewbold | OO taken way too far - are you sure it wasn't done in jest? |
| 16:05.29 | _psychic_ | yes |
| 16:05.38 | _psychic_ | If you look at the code examples, they are kindof cool |
| 16:05.44 | _psychic_ | it isn't so much a way to OOP around |
| 16:05.50 | _psychic_ | its a way to filter and change things |
| 16:05.56 | _psychic_ | jury is still out for me |
| 16:06.53 | dataw0lf | it supports XPath, which I suppose is cool |
| 16:07.28 | Utah_Dave | so far, it's been great for me |
| 16:09.47 | thebigdog | xpath rocks if it is full xpath support |
| 16:12.56 | dataw0lf | Firefox continues to piss me off. |
| 16:13.03 | wps | me too |
| 16:13.17 | wps | won't remember any of my settings |
| 16:13.25 | dataw0lf | 2 seems less stable than IE |
| 16:13.57 | thebigdog | i havent had any issues with 2 |
| 16:15.13 | dataw0lf | what platform? |
| 16:15.20 | thebigdog | both linux and windows |
| 16:15.29 | dataw0lf | windows firefox 2 is killing me |
| 16:15.39 | thebigdog | ive had plugin issues with firefox on linux |
| 16:16.02 | thebigdog | did you do a new install of firefox2 on windows |
| 16:16.09 | thebigdog | i did not mix the 2 at all |
| 16:16.38 | dataw0lf | yea, I did a new install |
| 16:19.19 | thebigdog | what issues you having? |
| 16:19.22 | Lone_Wanderer | I haven't had any problems with FF2 |
| 16:19.30 | dataw0lf | thebigdog: just randomly crashing |
| 16:19.39 | thebigdog | suck |
| 16:20.17 | dataw0lf | I know |
| 16:20.24 | dataw0lf | I've actually had to resort to using IE |
| 16:20.36 | thebigdog | ie7 sucks |
| 16:20.39 | thebigdog | looks like crap |
| 16:20.47 | wps | IE7's interface is rediculous |
| 16:25.04 | dataw0lf | ridiculous, too |
| 16:25.46 | Lone_Wanderer | hey DW, did your guy ever figure out what was wrong with his javascript that fiddled with form variables pre-post? |
| 16:28.27 | dataw0lf | who's? |
| 16:29.09 | dataw0lf | yay, another Firefox crash. |
| 16:29.13 | dataw0lf | that's what I'm talkin bout |
| 16:31.10 | dataw0lf | oooh, yea, we figured it out LW. |
| 16:41.13 | Lone_Wanderer | k cool |
| 16:44.15 | dataw0lf | hehe |
| 16:44.20 | dataw0lf | the White House is taking no chances |
| 16:44.45 | dataw0lf | since the Colbert fiasco last year, they've decided to invite Rich Little to the Correspondent's Dinner |
| 16:45.38 | Lone_Wanderer | Gotta make sure you don't let the dissidents in! |
| 16:46.12 | dataw0lf | indeed. Damn citizens and questioning their leadership. Where does it say they can do that?! |
| 16:48.12 | dataw0lf | oh, wait, we're running a democracy here, that's right. |
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| 16:52.09 | dataw0lf | http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070117/ap_en_ce/people_paul_sorvino |
| 16:52.16 | dataw0lf | Awesome, Paul Sorvino rocks. |
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| 16:59.15 | thebigdog | he should have shot him |
| 16:59.34 | thebigdog | atleast in the leg or something |
| 17:01.18 | thebigdog | ~lart mindjuju |
| 17:01.48 | thebigdog | mindjuju wake up |
| 17:08.22 | thebigdog | mindjuju wake up |
| 17:15.03 | thebigdog | ~sleep mindjuju |
| 17:15.04 | jbot | ACTION sends mindjuju to bed without supper |
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| 17:37.10 | Lone_Wanderer | Okay, if I've got customer.domain.com, pointing to the same IP as domain.com, it's (fairly) safe to assume that customer. is a vhost, right? |
| 17:37.38 | Lone_Wanderer | I know that domain.com is the main host. But I can't find anything in the Apache conf file or the directory structure to indicate where the files are. |
| 17:37.47 | beandog | DocumentRoot? |
| 17:38.08 | Lone_Wanderer | The DocumentRoot is full of stuff for domain.com, and has nothing for customer.domain.com (as far as I can tell) |
| 17:39.37 | macnewbold | Lone_Wanderer: if they've set it up to allow customer.domain.com as a vhost, you'd find either a ServerName or a ServerAlias that mentions customer.domain.com or *.domain.com |
| 17:39.52 | macnewbold | and it would have a DocumentRoot associated with it |
| 17:40.01 | Lone_Wanderer | Yeah, there's nothing like that. It makes me wonder if I got the dig wrong or something. |
| 17:40.32 | Lone_Wanderer | Either that or there's a config file being included somewhere that I'm not seeing. Which would be weird. |
| 17:41.07 | macnewbold | yeah, they can do includes from an apache conf |
| 17:41.21 | macnewbold | they can even list an include dir, and it will include all the conf files from the whole dir |
| 17:41.28 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, everything in conf.d is being included, but I've checked those. |
| 17:42.12 | macnewbold | hm |
| 17:42.18 | macnewbold | it's got to be there somewhere |
| 17:42.22 | macnewbold | oh, or here's the other: |
| 17:42.24 | Lone_Wanderer | I'll find it. |
| 17:42.27 | macnewbold | it could be catching the default vhost |
| 17:42.33 | macnewbold | (first vhost listed) |
| 17:43.17 | macnewbold | if you have access to the web logs, and they keep different ones for each vhost, you can hit the site and see where it logged it to find out which vhost handled the request... |
| 17:43.24 | Lone_Wanderer | ahh, good plan |
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| 17:44.49 | Lone_Wanderer | I did get the dig wrong. Or rather I read it wrong. |
| 17:44.59 | Lone_Wanderer | One points to .50, the other to .60. My font is very small. |
| 18:17.27 | mindjuju | thebigdog , sup |
| 18:17.58 | beandog | there also might be an argument to apachectl to show you the vhosts |
| 18:18.47 | beandog | nope |
| 18:18.49 | beandog | I was way off there. |
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| 18:42.15 | beandog | anyone know how to get that "view thumbnails" button in konqueror? |
| 18:42.30 | beandog | I probably didnt install kdegraphics correctly |
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| 18:53.06 | *** join/#uphpu burnin (n=burnin@42dbe40e.dsl.aros.net) |
| 18:59.13 | brasto | i'm going 64 bit, any suggestions on a mobo and vendor? |
| 18:59.58 | brasto | I'll want to go cheap for a first mobo - probably integrated video even, with epci for later vid upgrade. |
| 19:06.42 | brasto | I want a something that supports open source |
| 19:07.09 | brasto | eg: I have used nvidia for years. however, i'm turning away from them now for lack of open source support - they wont allow pre-packaged proprietary drivers, and wont support open source |
| 19:07.31 | brasto | I want support for open source drivers for linux first, bsd second, but hopefully both |
| 19:07.59 | brasto | sorry about cross-posting here. i'm also asking this on #utah. |
| 19:08.30 | brasto | i'll look for responses mostly there, so if any of you have suggestions or comments, you might go there to post them |
| 19:12.21 | burnin | http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813135011R |
| 19:12.41 | burnin | I've been running the RS480 version of that mobo for over a year |
| 19:13.03 | burnin | you can build a cheap 64 bit web server running linux, which is what I did. |
| 19:14.58 | mindjuju | wow, looks like a CSS war on the listserv |
| 19:22.03 | brasto | that'll be the second css war in the past few months |
| 19:22.41 | brasto | the last one had macnewbold championing table layouts and wps championing css layouts |
| 19:22.51 | macnewbold | hehe |
| 19:22.54 | dataw0lf | It happens cyclicly |
| 19:23.08 | dataw0lf | that, and OOP versus <whatever> |
| 19:23.12 | macnewbold | hehe |
| 19:23.17 | macnewbold | yeah, that too |
| 19:23.24 | dataw0lf | and MySQL versus Postgres |
| 19:23.31 | macnewbold | that one's easy though |
| 19:23.36 | macnewbold | mysql is way more popular |
| 19:23.44 | macnewbold | and usually gets the job done nicely |
| 19:23.51 | macnewbold | </sarcasm> |
| 19:23.56 | macnewbold | just kidding |
| 19:23.59 | dataw0lf | I know |
| 19:25.54 | dataw0lf | WHOA |
| 19:26.15 | dataw0lf | dude, tierra, you gonna let Lamont do that to you? |
| 19:26.58 | dataw0lf | you go ahead and reply, then I'll bomb bazaar from 10k feet with my custom Flameage-10 bomber. |
| 19:31.34 | mindjuju | yeah, i think things are getting ready to hit critical mass in the listserv |
| 19:33.27 | dataw0lf | it's been a while since there was a flamewar, this will get more people to join IRC, if only for a couple hours. |
| 19:33.42 | mindjuju | true that |
| 19:34.10 | tierra | oooo, a reply to my message... alright |
| 19:35.08 | dataw0lf | oh man |
| 19:35.13 | dataw0lf | wait til you see it tierra |
| 19:35.16 | dataw0lf | it's like a book |
| 19:36.18 | mindjuju | yeah it is, i read the first sentence and then stopped |
| 19:36.47 | tierra | only took him 3 weeks to come up with a reply (I'm still reading |
| 19:37.26 | tierra | he must have thought long and hard about this |
| 19:37.40 | mindjuju | or types v slow |
| 19:37.46 | tierra | hehe |
| 19:37.51 | dataw0lf | no kidding. |
| 19:38.01 | dataw0lf | if you can't make your point in three paragraphs, don't make it all, tis what I say. |
| 19:38.34 | macnewbold | hehe |
| 19:38.51 | dataw0lf | hehe |
| 19:39.29 | tierra | I'm probably not even going to bother with a reply, but I'll read it |
| 19:39.48 | dataw0lf | I can tell you what to say! |
| 19:39.59 | dataw0lf | pick me, pick me! |
| 19:40.05 | tierra | haha |
| 19:40.10 | tierra | you read it all already? |
| 19:40.27 | tierra | we can take turns bashing him, you want this email? |
| 19:40.33 | tierra | :) |
| 19:40.45 | dataw0lf | Yea, let me go first, I got, like, 4 sentences to say. |
| 19:40.55 | dataw0lf | and if dw is attacking a Python application, you know it be good. |
| 19:41.03 | tierra | haha |
| 19:45.07 | timinator | that ASCII art isn't even that obnoxious compared to the length of the email. |
| 19:47.01 | dataw0lf | DONE! |
| 19:47.04 | dataw0lf | too easy. |
| 19:47.33 | dataw0lf | just broke the email down to a couple lines, so I feel more comfortable when I quote his retorts. |
| 19:48.38 | brasto | btw, i forgot what afaik stands for... |
| 19:48.47 | dataw0lf | as far as i know |
| 19:54.06 | dataw0lf | dang it |
| 19:55.11 | dataw0lf | I hate spray on deodorant, it starts dripping down the side of my underarm right around noon. |
| 19:55.46 | dataw0lf | ooh, man, I hope he attacks my Paramiko comment, too, I just spent a couple weeks rewriting it so a Python app I'm writing for work worked correctly. |
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| 20:35.24 | dataw0lf | omg mac what's that |
| 20:35.25 | dataw0lf | you should be a novelist |
| 20:36.35 | _psychic_ | I can't believe I'm trying to convince web developers to put tables in <table>, and other stuff in other tags. |
| 20:36.37 | _psychic_ | Simple. |
| 20:36.46 | *** part/#uphpu brasto (n=brasto@71-219-149-94.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 20:37.48 | dataw0lf | I can't believe that you think people derive semantics from <div> and <span> |
| 20:37.55 | dataw0lf | they derive semantics from ids and classes |
| 20:38.09 | dataw0lf | no matter what the container element is. |
| 20:38.22 | dataw0lf | if you want pure semantics based upon the tag itself, use XML |
| 20:40.16 | _psychic_ | its not supposed to be sematic |
| 20:40.23 | _psychic_ | other than to say |
| 20:40.27 | _psychic_ | "This is for layout" |
| 20:40.30 | Lone_Wanderer | Oh, the snark! |
| 20:40.32 | _psychic_ | um |
| 20:40.35 | _psychic_ | XHTML |
| 20:40.38 | _psychic_ | that's what I use. :) |
| 20:40.41 | Lone_Wanderer | "I could ask for a raise of hands ... but I don't want to flood the mail server." |
| 20:40.53 | dataw0lf | oh, SNAP! |
| 20:40.54 | dataw0lf | ;-) |
| 20:41.14 | dataw0lf | _psychic_: make your own XSL rather than using others, ya wuss. |
| 20:41.16 | dataw0lf | ;-) |
| 20:41.56 | dataw0lf | jeez, I just winked twice in the span of a minute |
| 20:42.02 | tierra | I didn't know this until gibba[w] pointed it out the other day, but you can write your own DOCTYPE which defines specific named container elements for which you can add styles and more easily identify structure... |
| 20:42.02 | dataw0lf | must have a twitch |
| 20:42.14 | dataw0lf | tierra: yar. |
| 20:42.43 | dataw0lf | you haven't seen the source for my site? |
| 20:42.52 | dataw0lf | <tierrasucks></tierrasucks> is the main body |
| 20:42.56 | dataw0lf | no, no, I'm serious. |
| 20:43.15 | tierra | haha |
| 20:43.34 | Lone_Wanderer | dw: there are some tags in HTML that have semantic meaning |
| 20:43.46 | Lone_Wanderer | macnewbold: So where do you stand on mysql vs. postgres? |
| 20:43.58 | _psychic_ | tierra: something like this? http://www.w3.org/QA/2002/04/valid-dtd-list.html |
| 20:44.14 | beandog | sqlite ftw! |
| 20:44.26 | gibba[w] | you can do it without making a doctype |
| 20:44.34 | dataw0lf | tierra: stderr.ws |
| 20:44.35 | gibba[w] | but it won't validate with W3 unless you do |
| 20:44.38 | dataw0lf | I was just joking tho |
| 20:44.46 | dataw0lf | but, hey, look, no tables! heeeey! |
| 20:44.46 | macnewbold | Lone_Wanderer: I use mysql because I'm most familiar with it and it meets my needs, but I'm not opposed to postgres, sqlite, or any other reasonable DB. I'm not a fan of MS SQL at all, and Access and Filemaker are not real databases. |
| 20:45.00 | dataw0lf | it's JET not Access! |
| 20:45.04 | beandog | textfiles are all the database you'll ever need. |
| 20:45.04 | dataw0lf | but, yes, I agree, it sux0rz |
| 20:45.15 | tierra | _psychic_: those are all w3 standard doctypes, I was talking about writing a custom one |
| 20:45.17 | macnewbold | textfiles rock for many things |
| 20:45.22 | Lone_Wanderer | k |
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| 20:45.48 | Lone_Wanderer | I like Postgres better than MySQL, but I use MySQL because it's ubiquitous. |
| 20:45.50 | dataw0lf | beandog: omg serialization! |
| 20:45.58 | gibba[w] | beandog: flatfile structure is for the WEAK! |
| 20:46.02 | dataw0lf | I like PG > sqlite > MySQL |
| 20:46.13 | dataw0lf | gibba[w]: or for the lightweight |
| 20:46.17 | beandog | holy crap, I agree with dataw0lf on something. |
| 20:46.18 | gibba[w] | :D |
| 20:46.25 | dataw0lf | noooooooooooooooooo |
| 20:46.29 | macnewbold | uh oh, that's trouble |
| 20:46.33 | macnewbold | you're on your way down... |
| 20:46.44 | dataw0lf | I hope you're talking to me *arrogant sniff* |
| 20:47.25 | Lone_Wanderer | Why do you put sqlite before mysql? |
| 20:48.04 | dataw0lf | Because, if I want (need) a true relational database, I'll use PG. If I want something lightweight (blog, small wiki, etc), I'll use SQLite |
| 20:48.20 | dataw0lf | no need to be running a daemon unless I truly need it |
| 20:48.32 | Lone_Wanderer | k |
| 20:48.48 | Lone_Wanderer | Hmm. Is there an sqlite client for Windows by any chance? |
| 20:48.56 | dataw0lf | yes |
| 20:49.09 | Lone_Wanderer | Hmmmmmm. |
| 20:49.34 | beandog | anyone whose used psql puts it before mysql |
| 20:50.02 | macnewbold | since sqlite doesn't really have a server per se, I guess that means you can run it on a windows machine |
| 20:50.03 | dataw0lf | I've seen first hand at this job that MySQL doesn't scale too well. |
| 20:50.03 | Lone_Wanderer | How much of a pain is it to move between sqlite and various MS Office formats? |
| 20:50.10 | dataw0lf | Well, sorry, it was 4.1 |
| 20:50.23 | dataw0lf | I'm hoping when I upgrade to 5 (today) it'll be better. I've heard good things. |
| 20:50.52 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: 'various MS Office formats' ? Excel, do you mean? |
| 20:51.01 | Lone_Wanderer | Excel, Word, and... I think those two are it. |
| 20:51.05 | dataw0lf | you can export most Excel files to CSV |
| 20:51.20 | Lone_Wanderer | I need to go the other way. |
| 20:51.20 | Black_Chaos | you have a database in word? |
| 20:51.24 | dataw0lf | I don't know what you mean about Word format being related to any sort of spreadsheet/database format, however. |
| 20:51.30 | wps | dang, mac is sure long-winded |
| 20:51.37 | dataw0lf | You can import CSVs into Excel. |
| 20:51.50 | dataw0lf | if you need something a bit more complex, COM be your friend. |
| 20:51.53 | dataw0lf | specifically, Python COM |
| 20:52.15 | Lone_Wanderer | No, I have a friend who needs a solution to a problem that involves gathering information, storing it, and sending it out later in various formats. |
| 20:53.23 | Lone_Wanderer | Including Word and Excel. |
| 20:53.37 | Lone_Wanderer | Ohhh, I'll look up COM. |
| 20:55.32 | encryptz | geez |
| 20:55.40 | encryptz | the mailing list is off the hook! :) |
| 20:56.15 | mindjuju | yeah, lots of people have opinions about CSS |
| 20:56.38 | dataw0lf | aww, MAN |
| 20:56.51 | dataw0lf | I can't believe fungus caught that RMS / ESR thing and I didn't. |
| 20:56.58 | dataw0lf | you hippie, fungus |
| 20:57.08 | fungus | lol, of course. |
| 20:57.15 | Lone_Wanderer | DW: You were right. |
| 20:57.23 | Lone_Wanderer | Everyone was right. |
| 20:57.35 | fungus | everyone confuses them, but they are fundamentally different. |
| 20:57.48 | dataw0lf | RMS is a hippie, ESR is a gun toting libertarian. |
| 20:57.57 | fungus | RMS is concerned with Freedom in software, and ESR is concerned about better development models. |
| 20:58.03 | dataw0lf | these are the fundamental differences. |
| 20:58.25 | fungus | Agreed. |
| 20:58.29 | Lone_Wanderer | dataw0lf: Ask what you were right about dangit. |
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| 20:59.14 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: I assumed the innerHTML comment. |
| 20:59.20 | Lone_Wanderer | No, no. |
| 20:59.39 | dataw0lf | I'm pretty much right every time, you know this maaaan. You have to be specific. |
| 20:59.41 | dataw0lf | ;-) |
| 20:59.43 | Lone_Wanderer | You said that a girl likes me. |
| 20:59.44 | Lone_Wanderer | You were right. |
| 21:00.15 | dataw0lf | I'm very perceptive when it comes to women, I just ignore it personally. |
| 21:00.25 | Lone_Wanderer | I'd been having that conversation a lot. "Dude, she likes you." "No no, we're just friends." "But you like her, right?" "Well yeah. But there's nothing there, seriously." "I swear she likes you." |
| 21:00.28 | dataw0lf | beause, y'know, I'm a man, and that's what I'm s'posed to be like. |
| 21:00.38 | mindjuju | holy $! |
| 21:00.39 | Lone_Wanderer | Anyway. |
| 21:00.45 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: Well get 'er buddy. |
| 21:00.45 | Lone_Wanderer | Now that we're both dating other people, she admits it. |
| 21:00.50 | mindjuju | fungus! where did that come from? |
| 21:00.52 | dataw0lf | oooooooooooooooooooh |
| 21:01.19 | dataw0lf | fungus: So, your philosophy is 'use whatever tool is right for the job, right?' |
| 21:01.26 | fungus | yup |
| 21:01.27 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: They do that. |
| 21:01.29 | mindjuju | "bryan was not confused, you are" wow! that's a spicy meatball! |
| 21:01.31 | Lone_Wanderer | Oh well. |
| 21:01.57 | dataw0lf | fungus: So.... Windows can be considered a good tool for some jobs, right? |
| 21:02.00 | dataw0lf | ;-) |
| 21:02.01 | fungus | Well Lamont was wrong, and he got the whole RMS vs ESR thing wrong. That gets my panties in a twist. |
| 21:02.12 | Lone_Wanderer | You're wearing panties? |
| 21:02.22 | fungus | lol, a figure of speech |
| 21:02.36 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: She basically wants you to steal her from him. but that would be bad for any future relationship. If you intelligently show that you share the same feelings, and don't make it weird, she'll be done with whomever quickly. |
| 21:02.46 | dataw0lf | fungus: pics plz |
| 21:03.02 | fungus | Temporarily ignoring the non-free thing for a second, I can't think of any reason where Windows is the best choice. |
| 21:03.12 | Lone_Wanderer | Unfortunately for her, my devotion to the new girlfriend cannot be swayed by any mortal. |
| 21:03.23 | Lone_Wanderer | Except, I suppose, the new girl herself. |
| 21:03.32 | dataw0lf | fungus: What about... game development? |
| 21:03.51 | dataw0lf | fungus: what about... a quality commercial product that you're trying to market to the masses? |
| 21:04.07 | fungus | Besides market share, there is nothing Windows has that is technically better. |
| 21:04.24 | Lone_Wanderer | technically better than what? |
| 21:04.38 | mindjuju | i play that while i patch servers all day |
| 21:04.42 | dataw0lf | 3D graphics support, sir |
| 21:04.44 | mindjuju | glad they got one thing right |
| 21:05.02 | dataw0lf | plus, Visual Studio is the best IDE, this is an easy conclusion to come to. |
| 21:05.05 | fungus | But, in this life, market share does matter. So Windows, unfortunately, is the best choice for games... for now. |
| 21:05.26 | mindjuju | thebigdog , you around? |
| 21:05.31 | fungus | mindjuju: no, they didn't *get it right*. They got market share. |
| 21:05.51 | mindjuju | nah, i'd say they got windows solitaire right |
| 21:06.11 | dataw0lf | hearts, too. |
| 21:06.12 | mindjuju | it's not buggy, it's fun, and i love playing it vegas style |
| 21:06.16 | fungus | heh, market share is another reason to pick cvs or svn over bazaar any day. |
| 21:06.36 | dataw0lf | it sure is. |
| 21:07.29 | fungus | mindjuju: I don't know, I have solitare on my box. It is just as good as the windows version... actually it's better... it's Free |
| 21:08.00 | mindjuju | yeah, but does your deck of cards have a single rose on it? |
| 21:08.04 | dataw0lf | I don't let morality cloud my judgement of tech. |
| 21:08.13 | dataw0lf | or anything else for that matter, but, y'know ,that's another story. |
| 21:08.33 | fungus | I let morality be a feature (a very important one) of tech. |
| 21:09.05 | fungus | Morality matters, but is not the only thing to consider. |
| 21:09.16 | dataw0lf | I'm pragmatic, I go for what works best. |
| 21:09.26 | dataw0lf | The open source model works for many apps. But not all. |
| 21:09.49 | fungus | ahh, open source model, is just that, a model. It isn't the best for all apps. |
| 21:10.05 | fungus | Freedom *is* best for all apps. |
| 21:10.16 | dataw0lf | Nah. |
| 21:10.22 | dataw0lf | Freedom is overrated. |
| 21:10.26 | fungus | lol |
| 21:10.41 | dataw0lf | Or, rather, forced freedom is overrated. |
| 21:10.47 | dataw0lf | Look at what's happening in Iraq :) |
| 21:10.57 | fungus | ok, I agree there. |
| 21:11.05 | Lone_Wanderer | Reddit needs a way to search a user's comments. |
| 21:12.04 | dataw0lf | dang germans and buying up dw.org |
| 21:14.59 | mindjuju | wow! 53 emails so far on the More CSS frustration topic! |
| 21:15.02 | Lone_Wanderer | Forced freedom? |
| 21:15.03 | mindjuju | i wonder if that is a record |
| 21:15.29 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: yes, forced freedom. |
| 21:15.42 | dataw0lf | making licenses viral, and all that. |
| 21:15.54 | dataw0lf | or invading a country and forcing a particular brand of government upon them. |
| 21:16.01 | Lone_Wanderer | ahhh |
| 21:16.31 | Lone_Wanderer | I was thinking like, free as opposed to being in jail. |
| 21:16.41 | Lone_Wanderer | I'd much rather be "forced" to be free than be locked up. |
| 21:17.35 | dataw0lf | some people do better with less or no freedom. |
| 21:18.40 | Lone_Wanderer | I suppose so. |
| 21:18.47 | Lone_Wanderer | Do you mean criminals? |
| 21:19.16 | macnewbold | where are the criminals? |
| 21:19.39 | macnewbold | mindjuju: you should jump into that conversation -- we're trying to set a new record |
| 21:19.59 | Lone_Wanderer | I mentioned being free as opposed to being in jail, and DW said that some people do better with less or no freedom. |
| 21:20.46 | Lone_Wanderer | I wasn't sure if he meant criminals, or citizens of Iraq. |
| 21:21.10 | dataw0lf | both. |
| 21:21.40 | dataw0lf | some cultures aren't ready or just aren't suited for democracy. And some criminals are not suited to be free. |
| 21:21.57 | Lone_Wanderer | I tend to think that criminals are a result of the society they were raised in. |
| 21:22.25 | Lone_Wanderer | Not that it's not their fault or that locking them up is wrong, which makes that comment somewhat off topic. |
| 21:22.25 | dataw0lf | The arrogant belief by Americans that western culture's apex of governmental structure is a one size fit all is going to (already is) hurt us. |
| 21:22.55 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: That doesn't make them any more suited to participate in said society. |
| 21:23.22 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, you're also presupposing that a democracy gives the individual citizen and/or the culture/country more free than another form of government. |
| 21:23.59 | Lone_Wanderer | dataw0lf: You're right, like I said it's off topic. |
| 21:24.02 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: Well, Democracy is centralized around individual freedoms. |
| 21:24.09 | dataw0lf | which is what I'm discussing when I talk about 'freedom'. |
| 21:24.13 | Lone_Wanderer | Eh? |
| 21:24.25 | Lone_Wanderer | Democracy is based on government by majority rules. |
| 21:24.27 | Lone_Wanderer | rule* |
| 21:24.52 | Lone_Wanderer | Some have said mob rule. |
| 21:24.58 | dataw0lf | you're thinking a republic. |
| 21:25.08 | dataw0lf | (which is what we really are) |
| 21:25.44 | dataw0lf | but the government in a democracy/republic (ideally) is supposed to pay fealty to the people and make decisions based on individuals decisions that are tabluated |
| 21:26.22 | dataw0lf | whereas most other forms of government are centered around the betterment of a group as a whole, or one leader's decisions. |
| 21:26.23 | Lone_Wanderer | The government in a democracy is supposed to exist only to carry out the wishes of the people. |
| 21:27.00 | dataw0lf | I'm often surprised that we turned out to be a republic (at least at the beginning) |
| 21:27.12 | dataw0lf | since we're a bunch of religious extremists. |
| 21:27.23 | Lone_Wanderer | Why? The founding fathers were well aware of the problems with a pure democracy. |
| 21:27.28 | dataw0lf | Mostly has to do with bucking the yoke good ole George was trying to wrap around our necks. |
| 21:28.45 | dataw0lf | especially when it comes to a culture that's extremely faith based, it takes a lot for them to adopt a democratic or republican government. |
| 21:28.49 | dataw0lf | A whole heck of a lot. |
| 21:29.11 | dataw0lf | you definitely aren't going to force them into it, too many religious leaders that have had sway for too long ain't giving up the power. |
| 21:29.25 | dataw0lf | which, of course, is our problem in Iraq and the Middle East in general. |
| 21:29.39 | dataw0lf | you're not going to beat a people who're convinced wholeheartedly in their faith. |
| 21:30.20 | dataw0lf | I can only imagine their resolve since I'm not a particularly religious person, but I have no doubt that it's unbreakable in 10, 20, 30, 40 years |
| 21:30.40 | dataw0lf | which is why I respect em. |
| 21:31.48 | Lone_Wanderer | Probably take more than two generations. |
| 21:32.06 | tierra | fungus: nice catch on ESR/RMS :) I didn't give it much thought |
| 21:32.08 | dataw0lf | I'm thinking four |
| 21:32.10 | Lone_Wanderer | They should just teach them more about America. That might help. |
| 21:32.28 | dataw0lf | doubtful, they're spot on with most of their assessments. |
| 21:32.33 | macnewbold | look at something like racism... how long will it take before it is 80-90% eliminated in the minds of people here in the USA? |
| 21:32.53 | Lone_Wanderer | "In America, we call our government a democracy. But it's still run by the religious masses. You can have your democracy and eat it too!" |
| 21:32.54 | dataw0lf | probably never. |
| 21:32.58 | dataw0lf | people are tribal. |
| 21:33.26 | Lone_Wanderer | When I was a kid, I lived in Morocco and went to school with kids from all over the world. |
| 21:33.43 | Lone_Wanderer | Russia, Pakistan, Scandinavia, etc. |
| 21:33.54 | Lone_Wanderer | and we were all friends |
| 21:34.25 | Lone_Wanderer | so when I moved back here, I was kind of surprised at all of the anti-racism stuff |
| 21:34.25 | dataw0lf | this is because you all were in a different overlying culture. |
| 21:34.46 | dataw0lf | because we've developed separate cultures based on race in this country, racism is just growing. |
| 21:35.17 | Lone_Wanderer | Because all of us were from different places and were put together inside of a culture that was foreign to all of us, you mean? |
| 21:35.17 | dataw0lf | not in the sense of 'KKK' racism, but the widening separation of coexisting cultures almost always results in a clash |
| 21:35.28 | dataw0lf | correct. |
| 21:35.40 | Lone_Wanderer | I hadn't thought of that. |
| 21:35.59 | dataw0lf | my dad's an anthropologist, I have to listen to him blather constantly. |
| 21:36.13 | Lone_Wanderer | I just remembered thinking that if everyone would shut up about not being racist, maybe less people would be introduced to the idea in the first place. |
| 21:36.16 | Lone_Wanderer | That's cool. |
| 21:36.42 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: Indeed. The whole political correctness propaganda is even worse for racism. |
| 21:37.02 | Lone_Wanderer | It also may have been because the group was self-selected. Only parents who are likely to be tolerant of other cultures and races would choose to move to a foreign one. |
| 21:37.06 | dataw0lf | By not expressing ideas openly, and feeling guilt ridden or sensitive about certain issues, you just open up a whole different can of worms. |
| 21:37.15 | dataw0lf | and keep that widening agoin' |
| 21:37.25 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: good point. |
| 21:37.55 | Lone_Wanderer | Also then you get people like me, who have decided that if they ever get rich they'll create a scholarship that only caucasian people with green eyes can apply for. |
| 21:38.17 | dataw0lf | yea, but then you'll be labelled a racist! |
| 21:38.26 | dataw0lf | white males're getting screwed on this whole deal. |
| 21:39.32 | dataw0lf | Hate is hate. The whole idea that racial based hatred is worse than others is ridiculous. In fact, it's something that's been bred into all of us, for the past 10,000 years or so. |
| 21:40.15 | macnewbold | yeah, anti-white-male stuff is highly prevalent |
| 21:40.40 | dataw0lf | macnewbold: Have you ever noticed that fathers in commercials are almost always portrayed as idiots? |
| 21:40.44 | macnewbold | they have these groups for minorities (scholarships, getting paid to do your homework, etc.) that will take any racial minority or gender minority |
| 21:40.51 | macnewbold | in other words, anyone but a white male |
| 21:40.59 | macnewbold | no doubt, dw |
| 21:41.01 | dataw0lf | yea, or, even worse, affirmative action. |
| 21:41.04 | macnewbold | on tv shows to |
| 21:41.11 | dataw0lf | true that. |
| 21:41.27 | macnewbold | yeah, until they just eliminate race/gender as a consideration at all, they're still being racist/sexist |
| 21:41.33 | dataw0lf | exactly. |
| 21:41.42 | macnewbold | just trying to correct things by reversing polarity just makes it over-correction |
| 21:41.43 | dataw0lf | and I hate the phrase 'reverse racism' |
| 21:41.58 | dataw0lf | racism is racism people, crikey. |
| 21:42.30 | dataw0lf | I mean, how is getting a job based entirely on your race any less demeaning than not getting a job based entirely on your race? |
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| 21:44.05 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v swb] by ChanServ |
| 21:44.07 | macnewbold | ~welcome swb |
| 21:44.09 | jbot | Howdy, swb! |
| 21:44.20 | swb | hi Mac :) |
| 21:44.25 | dataw0lf | sup swb |
| 21:44.45 | swb | hey, can you guys see the splunk banner ad on this page? http://sourceforge.net/projects/mp3splitter/ I think it's so funny |
| 21:44.55 | dataw0lf | omg |
| 21:44.58 | dataw0lf | http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-airline-runaway,0,7379633.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines |
| 21:45.46 | dataw0lf | I don't know which is worse; a 9 year old with a history of stealing cars, or the fact that he was easily able to sneak onto an airplane undetected. |
| 21:46.15 | swb | doesn't it just make you feel so safe with all that airport security? |
| 21:46.16 | swb | not |
| 21:46.17 | dataw0lf | swb: wow, never heard of splunk before. |
| 21:46.29 | swb | heh, I just thought the ad was funny |
| 21:46.39 | gibba[w] | heya swb! |
| 21:46.44 | dataw0lf | yea, no kidding, there's no way ever that anyone is going to get away with hijacking a plane with boxcutters again. |
| 21:46.46 | swb | hey gibba |
| 21:47.02 | dataw0lf | I mean, you better bring your chaingun if you want to get a plane in the U.S. |
| 21:47.09 | macnewbold | dataw0lf: yeah, that's a crazy article |
| 21:47.13 | macnewbold | duh, southwest |
| 21:47.39 | Lone_Wanderer | what's a chaingun? |
| 21:47.53 | Lone_Wanderer | does it shoot chains, or does it use a chain to drive some part of itself? |
| 21:48.13 | dataw0lf | uses a chain to cycle it |
| 21:48.19 | dataw0lf | like a bike, kinda. |
| 21:48.37 | Lone_Wanderer | gattling gun style, or... I'll just google it. |
| 21:48.42 | macnewbold | similar to a gatling? yeah |
| 21:49.08 | dataw0lf | yea, basically, but an engine with a chain drives the handle |
| 21:49.18 | dataw0lf | better than recoil weapons for many uses. |
| 21:50.20 | dataw0lf | my gf shot one with a ball on it at me |
| 21:50.54 | swb | that doesn't sound very nice |
| 21:51.07 | dataw0lf | it's been stuck around my leg for a while. |
| 21:52.16 | Lone_Wanderer | Ahh. So it's not just more reliable, it's also quite a bit bigger. |
| 21:52.30 | dataw0lf | yar |
| 21:53.31 | dataw0lf | sometimes I think I should go to congo and hunt poachers. they really anger me. |
| 21:53.31 | Lone_Wanderer | The chain has been stuck around your leg? |
| 21:53.45 | dataw0lf | yea, the, uh chain with a ball on it |
| 21:55.20 | Lone_Wanderer | In which case, death to the poachers. |
| 21:55.32 | dataw0lf | hey, the poachers have guns. |
| 21:55.35 | swb | delayed reaction... har har |
| 21:55.55 | dataw0lf | shooting an animal with a high powered rifle from half a mile away is ridiculous. |
| 21:56.03 | dataw0lf | and even worse when it's for greed. |
| 21:56.21 | Lone_Wanderer | Wouldn't they also then be able to shoot *you* from a half mile away? |
| 21:56.27 | dataw0lf | however, since poachers have guns, I have no problem sniping their greedy butts from half a mile away. |
| 21:56.35 | dataw0lf | Yes, that's what makes it fun. |
| 21:57.03 | fungus | Too bad rubber bullets won't go quite that far. |
| 21:57.10 | Lone_Wanderer | How would you know that they're poachers before they actuall kill an animal? |
| 21:57.49 | dataw0lf | anyone who's wandering around a preserve with a rifle and isn't wearing a uniform is fair game, i say. |
| 21:57.51 | fungus | If they are holding a gun, in the wilderness, not wearing orange, and not in season, it should be obvious. |
| 21:58.25 | Lone_Wanderer | It just occurs to me that in countries that are likely to have poachers, it's also probably quite likely that the population at large occasionally carries a gun with them. |
| 21:58.31 | dataw0lf | I like how many guys hang animal heads on their walls. And think they're tough. |
| 21:58.32 | Lone_Wanderer | Err. Individual members of the population. |
| 21:58.56 | dataw0lf | if I go hunting, I'm gonna take a buck knife |
| 21:59.03 | dataw0lf | and that's it |
| 21:59.08 | Lone_Wanderer | What would you hunt? |
| 21:59.17 | dataw0lf | whatever I was hungry for |
| 21:59.17 | Lone_Wanderer | <datawolf> men |
| 21:59.18 | fungus | If I go hunting, I will shoot them all with a .... Camera! |
| 21:59.22 | dataw0lf | a deer |
| 21:59.32 | dataw0lf | mebbe some rabbit, they're tasty. |
| 21:59.50 | dataw0lf | fungus: you want some rabbit fungus? mmmm |
| 21:59.54 | Lone_Wanderer | And you're going to, what... chase it down, tackle it, and cut it's throat? |
| 22:00.05 | dataw0lf | well, that'd be the plan. |
| 22:00.11 | fungus | That's even worse. |
| 22:00.17 | fungus | more suffering for the animal. |
| 22:00.46 | dataw0lf | I don't care if the animal suffers, really. It's the food chain. But I'm not going to shoot it from my treestand as it approaches my setup salt lick |
| 22:01.23 | Lone_Wanderer | Any wild animal is going to suffer tremendously when it dies. |
| 22:01.26 | dataw0lf | I mean, if you don't like animals suffering, you should come the Sierras and help us rid the mountains of cougars. |
| 22:01.35 | Lone_Wanderer | Oh hey. Great idea. |
| 22:01.52 | Lone_Wanderer | Then we can have a population explosion among animals that cougars prey on |
| 22:02.03 | dataw0lf | I mean, I'm pretty sure when they bite the hindquarters of a deer, drag it to the ground, and then rip out it's intestines, I mean, I dunno |
| 22:02.11 | dataw0lf | might hurt |
| 22:02.12 | Lone_Wanderer | so they can over-browse the plants they feed on |
| 22:02.16 | Lone_Wanderer | and then starve to death en masse |
| 22:02.21 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: sarcasm, sir. |
| 22:02.24 | Lone_Wanderer | ;) |
| 22:02.27 | fungus | I guess dataw0lf hasn't yet evolved the intelligence to understand that he doesn't have to behave like an animal anymore. |
| 22:02.56 | dataw0lf | I guess dataw0lf has evolved the intelligence to understand that humans ARE animals, and isn't arrogant enough to discount the canines evolution has provided him |
| 22:03.07 | Lone_Wanderer | I guess fungus hasn't used his intelligence to conduct research regarding wildlife management. |
| 22:03.09 | dataw0lf | for tearing meat |
| 22:03.39 | dataw0lf | course, I wouldn't kill a mountain lion, because I don't want to be a victim of natural selection when my weak little buck knife fails me. |
| 22:04.44 | Lone_Wanderer | You can start with http://www.wild-about-trapping.com/trappers_ed/trappers_ed_004_mange.htm |
| 22:04.45 | dataw0lf | this premise that humans have some vague moral obligation to completely upstage and disregard nature is amusing, though. |
| 22:04.54 | dataw0lf | and condescending to our fellow animals. |
| 22:05.41 | Lone_Wanderer | "The real world is an extreme place. Many people simply do not realize that. They prefer the Disney-ized version of nature where all animals get along with each other in harmony." |
| 22:05.49 | fungus | That reminds me of a South Park episode... You can kill anything as long as you say you are "thinning out the herd". |
| 22:06.26 | Lone_Wanderer | A South Park quote is hardly a sound refutation of the result of decades of research. |
| 22:06.42 | dataw0lf | I don't say any such thing. I'm just understand that we're a insignificant organism that has relegated ourselves onto a pedestal because we think we have something over other animals. 'Morals', whathaveyou |
| 22:06.47 | fungus | I never said it was, but it was funny none-the-less. |
| 22:06.48 | dataw0lf | s/I'm/I |
| 22:07.06 | dataw0lf | I mean, dolphins seem to have 'morals' |
| 22:07.10 | fungus | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcano_(South_Park_episode) |
| 22:07.12 | dataw0lf | they protect their young |
| 22:07.20 | dataw0lf | they show affection to each other |
| 22:07.32 | Lone_Wanderer | "Mange is highly contagious and is passed from host to host, thus it is not uncommon when furbearer populations are high and animals have exceeded the carrying capacity of their habitat." |
| 22:07.38 | dataw0lf | they operate in a way that is beneficial to their community |
| 22:07.48 | dataw0lf | that doesn't stop them from chomping on some fish though, lemme tell ya |
| 22:08.16 | dataw0lf | so who's more evolved? Physically, dolphins, of course. But morally? Spiritually? |
| 22:08.47 | dataw0lf | dolphins, probably, because evolution is dependent upon the survival of a species, and you it is guided by the fact that that species does what it needs to to survive. |
| 22:08.50 | fungus | heh, dolphins... HHGG "Thanks for the fish" |
| 22:09.40 | dataw0lf | humans, of course, think that they are highly evolved because they will put beliefs, morals, whatever over self preservation. And that's nonsense. |
| 22:10.07 | dataw0lf | </rant> |
| 22:10.30 | Lone_Wanderer | Now do one about animal rights activists. |
| 22:10.54 | Lone_Wanderer | ;) |
| 22:10.57 | fungus | The ALF are a bunch of insane murdering criminals. |
| 22:11.18 | dataw0lf | I don't believe in animal experimentation for cosmetics, etc |
| 22:11.28 | dataw0lf | but for bettering humanity? you betcha. |
| 22:11.53 | swb | can you jump to a specific time in audacity, or do you have to scroll and click to select something? |
| 22:13.19 | Lone_Wanderer | ALF is funded by PETA |
| 22:13.23 | Lone_Wanderer | (and others) |
| 22:13.31 | dataw0lf | PETA is ridiculous. |
| 22:14.22 | dataw0lf | I don't wear fur tho, I think it's disgusting. |
| 22:14.36 | fungus | That is what you call extremist assholes. |
| 22:15.14 | dataw0lf | Anyone seen Fast Food Nation? |
| 22:15.22 | fungus | Not yet, but plan to. |
| 22:15.37 | dataw0lf | man |
| 22:15.43 | dataw0lf | slaughterhouse scene, no good |
| 22:16.36 | dataw0lf | traps are bad |
| 22:16.38 | fungus | aww man, won't be released until March 6th |
| 22:16.49 | Lone_Wanderer | What's bad about them? |
| 22:17.15 | Lone_Wanderer | Alternately, just read this: http://www.wild-about-trapping.com/trappers_ed/trappers_ed_003_dissect_ar.htm |
| 22:18.07 | dataw0lf | they're impersonal and are just another symptom of the human need to rape an area and move on |
| 22:18.28 | dataw0lf | I wouldn't kill a baby deer or baby fox or whatever, but since traps are indiscriminate, you don't get to make that decision. |
| 22:19.09 | bradym | swb: I don't think you can in Audacity 1.2.x but the beta has a new selection bar - http://audacity.sourceforge.net/download/features-1.3-d.php |
| 22:19.57 | swb | thanks bradym, btw, is there a better tool for cutting an mp3 into pieces? |
| 22:20.09 | Lone_Wanderer | Traps are not indiscriminate. |
| 22:20.19 | swb | I was going to use the "export multiple" feature in audacity |
| 22:20.37 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: Traps are indeed indiscriminate. |
| 22:20.37 | swb | have to add tracks or a label track first though |
| 22:20.39 | Lone_Wanderer | They are species specific, and if you want to actually catch something in your traps, you have to place them in such a way that only one species of animal is going to get caught in it. |
| 22:21.17 | dataw0lf | I've never seen a trap that can discriminate based on age nor on if the animal has any offspring |
| 22:21.17 | Lone_Wanderer | There are also laws regulating how you can set a trap, and where, to prevent domestic animals from getting caught in them. |
| 22:21.35 | bradym | swb: yeah, definitely the wrong tool for that.. there's one that is perfect for that if i can remember the name.. one sec |
| 22:22.45 | swb | I found this one, but it's not quite right because you can't split by length of time http://sourceforge.net/projects/mp3splitter/ |
| 22:23.01 | dataw0lf | swb: http://www.filetransit.com/files.php?name=Cut_Mp3 |
| 22:23.20 | Lone_Wanderer | Most traps are sized such that they won't go off unless an adult-sized animal steps on them |
| 22:23.48 | Lone_Wanderer | as for offspring, I don't know any hunters who can tell whether a fox has cubs in it's den just by looking at it either |
| 22:23.52 | dataw0lf | that's not good enough. Nor does it determine if they have offspring with them. |
| 22:23.54 | fungus | But they can never be perfect. |
| 22:24.12 | dataw0lf | that's because hunters are idiots. |
| 22:24.35 | dataw0lf | you can watch the behavior of any animal and determine whether it has offspring within an hour or two. |
| 22:25.03 | Lone_Wanderer | I don't think that having babies or not is really an issue... |
| 22:25.15 | bradym | swb: here's the one I like |
| 22:25.18 | bradym | http://mpesch3.de1.cc/mp3dc.html |
| 22:25.21 | macnewbold | swb: sox can split/trim/cut up audio files at specified time lengths |
| 22:25.29 | macnewbold | it's a commandline tool, though, not a gui |
| 22:25.30 | dataw0lf | sure it is. Not in a moral sense, but to ensure that the animal population remains stable. |
| 22:25.35 | macnewbold | we've had to use it underneath some of our sites |
| 22:25.41 | dataw0lf | besides, I don't want to be the one killed Bambi's mother. |
| 22:25.49 | Lone_Wanderer | Are you serious? |
| 22:25.59 | swb | thanks bradym!!! and thanks mac, I'll check these out |
| 22:26.00 | macnewbold | whoever named a boy deer Bambi must have been on crack |
| 22:26.11 | dataw0lf | he did have a lisp.... |
| 22:26.54 | Lone_Wanderer | DW: Are you serious about killing Bambi's mom? |
| 22:27.09 | dataw0lf | yea. My sister'd kill me. |
| 22:27.53 | Lone_Wanderer | You know that nobody sets traps for deer, right? |
| 22:28.18 | dataw0lf | I dunno, I consider a salt lick + treestand the very definition of a trap. |
| 22:28.33 | Lone_Wanderer | I think that's actually called baiting or something. |
| 22:28.44 | fungus | all the Disney films I watched in my youth contributed greatly to my Vegetarianism. |
| 22:28.50 | dataw0lf | putting food on top of a steel trap isn't baiting? |
| 22:29.04 | Lone_Wanderer | umm |
| 22:29.09 | Lone_Wanderer | putting food on a trap is illegal |
| 22:29.34 | dataw0lf | well how am I supposed to know that, sheesh. |
| 22:29.39 | dataw0lf | I told you I don't trap. |
| 22:29.47 | dataw0lf | I'm not Grizzly Adams up here. |
| 22:30.01 | dataw0lf | I just want to kill an animal with my barehands (plus buck knife) |
| 22:30.02 | Lone_Wanderer | you can put bleached white bones on top of them, if you're using certain sets (a "set" being the arrangement of the trap in relationship to it's environment) |
| 22:30.17 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, you could start by reading the pages I linked you to ;) |
| 22:30.39 | dataw0lf | I'm not interested in it enough. |
| 22:31.09 | dataw0lf | argh |
| 22:31.33 | dataw0lf | they better've gotten the beer from costco already |
| 22:31.49 | fungus | Cool, beer at costco! |
| 22:32.00 | macnewbold | that explains some of dataw0lf's comments today, I guess... |
| 22:32.01 | fungus | lol |
| 22:32.16 | fungus | That's for the hardcore alcoholics. |
| 22:32.47 | Lone_Wanderer | Andre the Giant was the most hardcore alcoholic ever. |
| 22:33.20 | dataw0lf | just because his liver is way bigger than mine doesn't make him a better alcoholic than me! |
| 22:33.57 | Lone_Wanderer | So, fungus, do you mean that you became a vegetarian based upon your emotional response to a movie with anthropomorphized animals in it rather than a consideration of facts? |
| 22:34.11 | Lone_Wanderer | Or did you just leave out the "consideration of facts" part because we were talking about Bambi? |
| 22:35.33 | fungus | partly yes. |
| 22:35.35 | dataw0lf | hey! Don't ruin fungus's uber-idealistic view on nature! |
| 22:35.53 | dataw0lf | You're going to derive me of the amusement when he babytalks a grizzly and tries to commune with it! |
| 22:35.55 | fungus | At first it helped a whole lot while I was young. |
| 22:36.14 | dataw0lf | I was a vegetarian for about 4 months. |
| 22:36.15 | fungus | Then later as I learned more, and studied, I confirmed it for myself. |
| 22:37.28 | dataw0lf | but your conviction is based primarily on morality, rather than health or practical issues, yes? |
| 22:37.41 | fungus | It was a very long slow transition for me. I never really liked meat as a child. Never anything shaped like an animal. |
| 22:38.13 | fungus | yes. It started with the OMG BAMBI, then moved on to morality. |
| 22:38.29 | Lone_Wanderer | Why is eating animals morally wrong? |
| 22:38.47 | dataw0lf | because we're a highly evolved creature, SIR! |
| 22:38.48 | fungus | because eating them usually involves their untimely death. |
| 22:38.49 | Lone_Wanderer | This isn't a Socratic question. |
| 22:38.59 | Lone_Wanderer | But it may turn into one. |
| 22:39.07 | dataw0lf | why is death such a bad thing? |
| 22:39.08 | Lone_Wanderer | So if I found roadkill, that'd be okay to eat? |
| 22:39.30 | fungus | morally yes, but probably not healthy. |
| 22:39.35 | Lone_Wanderer | And in the case of cattle - they wouldn't exist in the first place without our having created them, and they'd probably die if we didn't take care of them. |
| 22:39.58 | dataw0lf | do you use rubber, fungus? |
| 22:40.03 | fungus | Ok, then take *care* of them, don't kill them unnaturally. |
| 22:40.11 | Lone_Wanderer | (I'm wondering if that influences your take on the issue at all.) |
| 22:40.30 | dataw0lf | killing them for food is about as natural as you get. |
| 22:40.41 | dataw0lf | natural has nothing to do with living out a long, healthy life. |
| 22:40.43 | macnewbold | fungus: how do you feel about milk, eggs, and other animal products that don't involve their death (or amputation, etc.)? |
| 22:41.12 | fungus | That is ok, but I try to stick to organic as much as possible. |
| 22:41.20 | dataw0lf | I don't know if I could eat an amputated limb. Eating something that belongs to a still living creature gives me the creeps. |
| 22:41.23 | fungus | Happy cows make happy milk |
| 22:41.37 | Lone_Wanderer | I kind of question whether cows have the capacity for happiness. |
| 22:41.40 | fungus | amputation, eww. |
| 22:41.40 | dataw0lf | 'happy milk', I gotta get me some of that. |
| 22:42.03 | fungus | They have the capacity to live without human induced suffering. |
| 22:42.18 | Lone_Wanderer | But not without human-provided care. |
| 22:42.29 | fungus | human provided care is wonderful. |
| 22:42.32 | Lone_Wanderer | Is it our responsibility, now that we've created these animals, to care for them? |
| 22:42.37 | dataw0lf | I say we feed the cows kahlua and vodka so I can get my white russians naturally. |
| 22:42.41 | fungus | I am not a PETA member, care of animals is a good thing. |
| 22:43.01 | Lone_Wanderer | What about letting them breed? |
| 22:43.03 | dataw0lf | yea, care of em .. with a sledgehammer! |
| 22:43.13 | Lone_Wanderer | Or should we just let cows die off? |
| 22:43.40 | bradym | anyone know of a good js time selector widget? |
| 22:43.45 | fungus | How about we just raise and breed them just enough to provide us with milk and cheese. |
| 22:44.00 | fungus | treat them well, big open fields, etc. |
| 22:44.05 | Lone_Wanderer | Because milk production can also be cruel. |
| 22:44.15 | fungus | It doesn't have to be. |
| 22:44.17 | dataw0lf | and eventually I'm going to be ahungerin' for a burger |
| 22:44.50 | dataw0lf | fungus: how do you get your vitamin A, anyways? vitamins? |
| 22:45.18 | *** join/#uphpu _psychic_ (n=_psychic@71.32.228.156) |
| 22:45.18 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v _psychic_] by ChanServ |
| 22:45.27 | _psychic_ | meetings are evil |
| 22:45.27 | Lone_Wanderer | What's your take on wildlife management? By which I mean, killing off some members of a population so that it doesn't explode, leading eventually to starvation, mange, etc.? |
| 22:45.28 | fungus | I *should* be taking vitamins, or eating more variety. |
| 22:45.43 | fungus | but honestly I eat rarely, and it is usually crap. |
| 22:46.04 | Lone_Wanderer | On one hand, you're acatively killing animals. On the other hand, if you don't, you know that it will lead long-term to more suffering for more animals than if you had. |
| 22:46.45 | fungus | I think "wildlife management" is bullshit. |
| 22:46.53 | Lone_Wanderer | Why? |
| 22:47.06 | dataw0lf | fungus: I'd be eating some vitamin a, dude. deficiency in it can cause numerous problems, including blindness. |
| 22:47.38 | fungus | maybe long ago it was necessary, but nowdays, it isn't. |
| 22:49.10 | Lone_Wanderer | Why is it no longer necessary? And, what qualifies you to make that statement? I've met a lot of people, who have studied ecology and forestry, who think that it is necessary. |
| 22:49.28 | Lone_Wanderer | A lot of people agreeing doesn't make something true though. |
| 22:49.33 | _psychic_ | how on earth did animals ever survive without our managing them? |
| 22:49.44 | fungus | http://www.api4animals.org/facts?p=53&more=1 |
| 22:50.00 | dataw0lf | you'd think that due to our enroachment on their territory and dwindling ecosystems, wildlife management is even more of a necessity. |
| 22:50.13 | Lone_Wanderer | They survived by having predators eat them. Predators which have now been killed off by ranchers. |
| 22:50.28 | _psychic_ | ranchers == another type of predator |
| 22:50.30 | fungus | That is another thing that bothers me. our encroachment and sprawling cities. |
| 22:51.12 | fungus | Look at Lehi for an example. and then look at all the empty lots in the city. WTF?! |
| 22:51.23 | Lone_Wanderer | Now that the natural population controls (predators) have been removed, animals which are unable to self-regulate population wise would be going through boom and bust cycles if we didn't help them out. |
| 22:54.19 | fungus | One of my favorite bike trails in corner canyon near draper had signs all over to try to revegetate the whole area. It was great. Then now there is a whole neighborhood there. |
| 22:56.30 | fungus | ok, back to work now. |
| 22:58.15 | Lone_Wanderer | Okay, most of what that article says is either outdated by about 20 years or directly contradicts what I've been told by people who supposedly know what they're talking about. |
| 23:01.05 | Lone_Wanderer | Hmm. |
| 23:04.26 | Lone_Wanderer | I win. |
| 23:04.32 | Lone_Wanderer | 60th post! |
| 23:05.29 | thebigdog | gratz |
| 23:05.39 | *** join/#uphpu xilch|w (n=xilch@c-24-10-192-112.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 23:06.09 | thebigdog | im having some css mailing list frustration |
| 23:07.18 | thebigdog | lol |
| 23:07.25 | thebigdog | man mindjuju is making me mad |
| 23:07.27 | thebigdog | ~lart mindjuju |
| 23:07.28 | _psychic_ | keep the fire burnin, baby |
| 23:10.51 | fungus | Sweet, someone got to lvl 70 on WoW in 28 hours. http://www.pro-g.co.uk/news/17-01-2007-4522.html |
| 23:12.01 | _psychic_ | from 0? |
| 23:12.38 | fungus | from 60 |
| 23:13.10 | fungus | The cap was just raised from 60 -> 70. He made those 10 levels in 28 hours. That is incredible. |
| 23:13.33 | fungus | I haven't even made it to 61 yet. |
| 23:13.39 | _psychic_ | That's a lot of.... spiders. :) |
| 23:14.23 | thebigdog | ive heard guys doing it in 10-15 hours |
| 23:14.48 | thebigdog | that guy that does the horde leveling guide has video of doing it in that time i think |
| 23:15.55 | dataw0lf | if there's anything worse than playing WoW, it's gotta be watching a video for 10-15 hours to see some guy level. |
| 23:16.23 | fungus | lol, yeah, that's gotta be bad. |
| 23:16.28 | thebigdog | good thing is that he fast forwards it |
| 23:16.39 | thebigdog | so it is actually pretty funny |
| 23:17.14 | thebigdog | http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8660682279822169943&q=horde+leveling+guide&hl=en |
| 23:17.19 | thebigdog | that is part of 1-6 |
| 23:17.37 | dataw0lf | http://boo.codehaus.org/ |
| 23:17.55 | fungus | whoa, no help. The French guy had his whole guild helping him. |
| 23:18.19 | thebigdog | yeah and 28hours...that seems long for all the help |
| 23:18.28 | thebigdog | his guild sucks then |
| 23:18.29 | thebigdog | lol |
| 23:18.36 | fungus | heh, yup |
| 23:19.48 | thebigdog | it going to take me a while to hit 70 |
| 23:19.55 | thebigdog | like 3 months at my rate |
| 23:20.53 | thebigdog | fungus, you have level 60 right? |
| 23:22.29 | fungus | yeah. |
| 23:22.49 | Lone_Wanderer | Well it's supposed to take as long to get from 1 to 60 as it does to get from 60 to 70. |
| 23:22.51 | thebigdog | good thing i only have 1...i would hate to level 3 or 4 of them |
| 23:22.58 | thebigdog | yeah |
| 23:23.19 | thebigdog | like to get to 61 is 494k exp...that is unreal |
| 23:23.22 | fungus | Lone_Wanderer: if that's true, it will take me at least 7-8 months. |
| 23:23.44 | fungus | I am not that obsessed as some people are. |
| 23:24.04 | dataw0lf | I'm trying to get to level 40 in life. |
| 23:24.11 | Lone_Wanderer | So you can get a mount? :p |
| 23:24.29 | fungus | rofl |
| 23:24.35 | dataw0lf | so I can get over 120k/year |
| 23:24.38 | dataw0lf | I may just buy a mount with that |
| 23:25.09 | fungus | If you get your faction up with the dealership, it won't cost as much. |
| 23:25.18 | bradym | lol |
| 23:25.29 | Lone_Wanderer | There's a repeatable quest you can do to get dealership faction |
| 23:25.34 | bradym | so the question is, horde or alliance? |
| 23:25.39 | Lone_Wanderer | you turn in Krispy Kremes |
| 23:25.43 | Lone_Wanderer | HORDE |
| 23:25.57 | bradym | good answer :) |
| 23:26.04 | fungus | dataw0lf is definitely horde. |
| 23:26.13 | Lone_Wanderer | Definitely. |
| 23:26.15 | bradym | nah, he's the burning legion |
| 23:26.28 | Lone_Wanderer | I've never met anyone who can say they play Alliance and look you in the eye at the same time. |
| 23:27.44 | fungus | I'm a switcher. |
| 23:27.44 | fungus | http://www.craftingworlds.com/studio/?p=143 |
| 23:28.44 | fungus | or http://www.youtube.com/w/World-of-Warcraft---Frost-Shock!?v=jui2BdCa2T8&search=world%20of%20warcraft |
| 23:30.52 | Lone_Wanderer | I hope this is a parody of the Apple switch ads. I love parodies of those ads. |
| 23:30.55 | dataw0lf | This means nothing to me |
| 23:31.02 | dataw0lf | How about I'm .... |
| 23:31.04 | dataw0lf | ~dataw0lf |
| 23:31.14 | jbot | [dataw0lf] sleeping again, or da supahstah, or a dink, or #utah's number one troll, or known by his full title: dataw0lf, Destroyer of Newbies, Troll of the Seas of IRC, God of All that is Technical, etc, etc, or a lamer as per "~nickometer dataw0lf", or stderr |
| 23:31.59 | dataw0lf | yea, you definitely come across as a male orc shaman |
| 23:32.09 | Lone_Wanderer | Male, of course :p |
| 23:32.39 | thebigdog | i figure if im looking at butt in a game it better be femail |
| 23:32.48 | Lone_Wanderer | Yeah, my blood elf is a girl. |
| 23:33.03 | thebigdog | oh my be pally is bubblebumm |
| 23:33.17 | Lone_Wanderer | But (cue extreme geekiness) I feel like I can identify with my hunter better. |
| 23:34.31 | bradym | dataw0lf is definitely part of the burning legion: "The Burning Legion is a vast demonic army that has wrought havoc throughout the universe for millennia". :P |
| 23:35.01 | thebigdog | +1 |
| 23:37.23 | thebigdog | i saw a rogue with http://www.wowhead.com/?item=19019 |
| 23:37.27 | thebigdog | killer dps |
| 23:38.00 | thebigdog | http://www.wowhead.com/?screenshot=view&3.19019#705 |
| 23:38.24 | fungus | no way, is that faked. it's bigger than the person. |
| 23:39.04 | thebigdog | nope it is way killer |
| 23:39.29 | thebigdog | takes a long time and a guild to make that bad boy |
| 23:39.29 | fungus | wow. I want one. |
| 23:40.58 | thebigdog | too bad you cant get this http://www.wowhead.com/?item=18582 |
| 23:41.52 | fungus | holy $H!T, that's gotta be fake. |
| 23:42.35 | fungus | WoW might go the way EQ1 did soon. players more powerful than the gods themselves. |
| 23:43.18 | swb | thebigdog: http://www.campaignmonitor.com/reports/Guide_to_CSS_Support_in_Email.pdf |
| 23:43.30 | Lone_Wanderer | Okay, IIS is weird. |
| 23:43.31 | Lone_Wanderer | Seriously. |
| 23:43.53 | mindjuju | what version of IIS ar eyou using? |
| 23:47.04 | mindjuju | so, can you dance in WoW like they showed in SP ? |
| 23:47.22 | bradym | yeah |
| 23:47.56 | bradym | the different races have different dances.. even different by gender |
| 23:51.26 | bradym | http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/races/dancing.html |
| 23:51.56 | thebigdog | undead female sucks |
| 23:52.52 | fungus | yeah, but the undead male is cool. |
| 23:53.13 | Lone_Wanderer | the NE female dance is from a singer called Alizee |
| 23:53.24 | Lone_Wanderer | she's French, and she puts the animations to shame. |
| 23:54.22 | com4 | you can be undead in wow? |
| 23:54.25 | com4 | can you be living dead? |
| 23:54.26 | thebigdog | druid moonkin is the best |
| 23:56.22 | bradym | they need to give the tree of life a dance |
| 23:57.09 | macnewbold | ~lart Lone_Wanderer |
| 23:57.19 | macnewbold | the herring will teach you... |
| 23:57.47 | macnewbold | _psychic_ has been pretty quiet in here today it seems, despite everything going on on the mailing list... |
| 23:58.28 | _psychic_ | I tried to start a fire in here too, but I didn't get any takers :) |
| 23:58.45 | _psychic_ | macnewbold: I hope you realize I never mean any disrespect to your views or your programming practices |
| 23:59.06 | macnewbold | and to you as well |
| 23:59.19 | macnewbold | hopefully we've shown everyone both sides of the coin... |