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| 13:43.00 | timinator | moring guys |
| 13:43.16 | timinator | s/moring/morning |
| 13:43.24 | timinator | s/moring/morning/ |
| 13:43.36 | timinator | ~morning all |
| 13:43.46 | jbot | ACTION bends space and time, trapping all in a universe of eternal monday mornings |
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| 13:54.15 | drip | morning |
| 13:59.29 | herlo | drip: morning |
| 14:17.29 | timinator | hey guys |
| 14:17.48 | timinator | I've got a linux prob |
| 14:18.08 | timinator | anybody awake for something like that? |
| 14:39.51 | *** join/#uphpu cyco|w (n=cyco@66.114.120.2) |
| 14:44.08 | drip | what kind of problem are you having? |
| 14:45.05 | timinator | I added an IP and now it's not letting me connect w/ the old IPs that are still in use |
| 14:45.14 | timinator | (did that make sense?) |
| 14:51.21 | jsmith | timinator: Did adding the new IP wipe out the default gateway for the old IPs? |
| 14:53.28 | timinator | it's a Linode |
| 14:53.33 | timinator | so it's UML |
| 14:53.43 | timinator | I've got three IPs on the account now |
| 14:56.25 | jsmith | Well, about the only thing I can suggest is to check the output of '/sbin/route -n' and see if it looks sane |
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| 14:57.54 | timinator | that looks like a mess.... |
| 14:58.05 | timinator | can I edit that file somewhere? |
| 14:58.28 | jsmith | Sure, using the route command. |
| 14:58.50 | jsmith | 'route add -net' and 'route del' are your friends |
| 14:59.04 | timinator | gotcha |
| 15:01.58 | beandog | oh man |
| 15:02.01 | beandog | my body hurts |
| 15:03.31 | beandog | moving+- |
| 15:04.57 | timinator | moving sucks |
| 15:05.51 | beandog | The worst part is the internet downtime |
| 15:05.51 | beandog | ;) |
| 15:05.52 | beandog | what am I supposed to do, read a book? |
| 15:07.09 | timinator | lol |
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| 15:37.46 | timinator | morning bigdog_ut |
| 15:37.55 | bigdog_ut | morning all |
| 15:38.25 | beandog | lo |
| 15:42.20 | drip | good morning |
| 15:42.33 | drip | ~mondays bigdog_ut |
| 15:42.43 | jbot | ACTION says looks like bigdog_ut 's got a case of the Mondays |
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| 15:44.28 | timinator | don't bother him drip, he's helping me right now |
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| 17:11.59 | dataw0lf | morning. |
| 17:13.16 | synic | yup. |
| 17:13.29 | synic | is it cold in reno? |
| 17:13.52 | dataw0lf | little bit |
| 17:13.55 | dataw0lf | http://www.niallkennedy.com/blog/archives/2006/11/google-mondrian.html |
| 17:13.59 | dataw0lf | just in case you missed it |
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| 17:18.19 | dataw0lf | Mondrian is going to be the greatest thing ever |
| 17:18.51 | Lone_Wanderer | What is it? |
| 17:19.24 | Lone_Wanderer | nm, reading |
| 17:21.15 | Lone_Wanderer | That is kind of cool I guess. |
| 17:21.40 | Lone_Wanderer | When I heard that Guido's first project was a source control thing I was kind of dissapointed but now that I've read about it I can see why it's cool. |
| 17:22.24 | dataw0lf | it's pretty slick |
| 17:22.42 | jsmith | Too bad it requires a publicly-accessable NFS mount ;-) |
| 17:22.44 | Lone_Wanderer | Can third parties use it? |
| 17:22.50 | jsmith | No, it's an internal tool |
| 17:22.54 | Lone_Wanderer | oh well |
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| 17:23.34 | dataw0lf | jsmith: That's probably due to BigTable |
| 17:24.29 | dataw0lf | I <3 Perforce |
| 17:24.44 | dataw0lf | except the Windows client eats up memory like nobody's business |
| 17:33.46 | Lone_Wanderer | Okay I *know* that making Ajax work wasn't this hard last time I did it |
| 17:35.20 | dataw0lf | what types of problems you running into? I'm pretty well versed in them myself, now. |
| 17:36.23 | Lone_Wanderer | All I want to do is have a function I can pass a URL to and have it return whatever the page displays |
| 17:36.36 | Lone_Wanderer | i.e. var foo = someFunction(url); |
| 17:36.51 | Lone_Wanderer | and then foo will have whatever comes back from the page |
| 17:37.09 | Lone_Wanderer | (in this case a csv containing several numbers) |
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| 17:41.33 | dataw0lf | just create the XHR object and get the text return |
| 17:41.46 | Lone_Wanderer | Which XHR object, exactly? |
| 17:41.59 | Lone_Wanderer | Oh, that's an abbreviation of XMLHttpRequest? |
| 17:42.09 | dataw0lf | yea |
| 17:42.30 | Lone_Wanderer | Don't I have to register something for onreadystatechange? |
| 17:43.00 | dataw0lf | mozilla .. xhr = new XMLHttpRequest; xhr.open("GET", "link.php?something=something") |
| 17:43.06 | dataw0lf | xhr.send(null) |
| 17:43.16 | dataw0lf | then set the onreadystatechange callback |
| 17:43.28 | dataw0lf | check your readystate |
| 17:43.37 | Lone_Wanderer | That's where I'm running into problems. |
| 17:43.49 | dataw0lf | and then get the responseText attribute |
| 17:44.04 | dataw0lf | checking the readystate? |
| 17:45.16 | dataw0lf | function some_callback() { if(xhr.readyState == 4) { do something with xhr.responseText } } |
| 17:45.26 | dataw0lf | xhr.onreadystatechange = some_callback |
| 17:45.42 | dataw0lf | something to that effect |
| 17:47.00 | mindjuju | sup all |
| 17:47.06 | dataw0lf | what up |
| 17:47.26 | mindjuju | just a stylin and profilin', u? |
| 17:48.03 | dataw0lf | aww you know, I'm chillin like a villain |
| 17:49.22 | dataw0lf | whoa deja myvu |
| 17:49.42 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm trying to make it so that I can pass a URL and a function name to my makeRequest function |
| 17:49.51 | dataw0lf | y'know, when you're on the internet and you suddenly feel as if you're reading comments on MySpace |
| 17:50.01 | Lone_Wanderer | onChange="makeRequest('http://voip-call.us/ajax/getLines.php?loc=' + this.value, 'displayLines')" |
| 17:50.31 | dataw0lf | well, just pass the GET in the open |
| 17:50.48 | Lone_Wanderer | what do you mean? |
| 17:50.54 | dataw0lf | and shouldn't the callback be the function, really? |
| 17:51.07 | Lone_Wanderer | I don't know =\ |
| 17:51.26 | Lone_Wanderer | Like I said, I'd *like* to not have to call a function and pass it another function's name |
| 17:51.44 | dataw0lf | xhr.open("GET", some_url) |
| 17:51.55 | Lone_Wanderer | I'd like to just call displayLines(this.value) |
| 17:52.03 | Lone_Wanderer | and have displayLines create the request, etc. |
| 17:52.24 | jsmith | Lone_Wanderer: Did that url say VoIP? |
| 17:52.40 | Lone_Wanderer | I've been programming in a stateless environment for so long that dealing with something that has a state is confusing me. |
| 17:52.46 | dataw0lf | so why don't you just use displayLines as the callback |
| 17:52.47 | Lone_Wanderer | And yes, the company I work for is a VoIP company. |
| 17:52.54 | dataw0lf | or a version thereof |
| 17:53.19 | Lone_Wanderer | Well that's what I'm trying to do, by doing this... |
| 17:53.25 | Lone_Wanderer | function makeRequest(url, func) { |
| 17:53.35 | Lone_Wanderer | http_request.onreadystatechange = func |
| 17:53.51 | Lone_Wanderer | which didn't work, so I tried http_request.onreadystatechange = function() { func(http_request); }; which also isn't working |
| 17:53.57 | dataw0lf | oh, well, what's hard about that |
| 17:54.16 | dataw0lf | just add the request code into makeRequest |
| 17:54.25 | dataw0lf | and what is the value of the xhr object after the onreadystatechange? |
| 17:54.32 | dataw0lf | I mean, is it completely empty? |
| 17:54.44 | Lone_Wanderer | don't know that either |
| 17:55.07 | dataw0lf | she find the end values of every object after the XHR request is supposedly sent |
| 17:55.21 | dataw0lf | and compare the values before the request is sent to the end values |
| 17:55.57 | dataw0lf | s/she/so |
| 17:56.26 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm sorry but at this point I have no idea what you're talking about. |
| 17:56.49 | Lone_Wanderer | Can't I just wait until the XHR's readyState is 4 and then do something with XHR.responseText? |
| 17:56.57 | dataw0lf | ok, before the XHR code is executed, you want to view what the variable values are |
| 17:57.06 | dataw0lf | and then after the request is sent, view the variables |
| 17:57.10 | Lone_Wanderer | right... |
| 17:57.19 | dataw0lf | yes, you should be able to, but you need to figure out where your problem is |
| 17:57.21 | Lone_Wanderer | any particular variable, or just all of them? |
| 17:57.35 | dataw0lf | all variables that you think might have an effect |
| 17:57.37 | dataw0lf | the xhr object |
| 17:57.40 | dataw0lf | xhr.responseText |
| 17:57.47 | Lone_Wanderer | well this is the error I'm getting |
| 17:57.49 | Lone_Wanderer | Error: uncaught exception: Permission denied to call method XMLHttpRequest.open |
| 17:57.52 | dataw0lf | xhr.readyState |
| 17:58.54 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm assuming it's on this line: http_request.open('GET', url, true); |
| 17:58.57 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: Are you using Dojo? |
| 17:59.01 | Lone_Wanderer | nope |
| 17:59.15 | Lone_Wanderer | I got the javascript in question from this page: http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/AJAX:Getting_Started |
| 17:59.52 | dataw0lf | where is the script located? |
| 17:59.54 | Lone_Wanderer | http://dojotoolkit.org/ ? |
| 17:59.57 | dataw0lf | voi-call.us? |
| 18:00.06 | Lone_Wanderer | lemme get you the URL to it one sec |
| 18:00.10 | dataw0lf | voip-call.us |
| 18:00.19 | dataw0lf | and is it making the request to another voip-call.us? |
| 18:00.21 | Lone_Wanderer | http://www.voip-call.us/signup/provisioning.php is the page that loads the script |
| 18:00.27 | Lone_Wanderer | and yes it is |
| 18:01.10 | Lone_Wanderer | https://www.voip-call.us/includes/js/provisioning.js has the makeRequest, etc. stuff in it |
| 18:01.46 | dataw0lf | try a makeRequest("../ajax/getLines.php?loc=" this.value) |
| 18:02.16 | dataw0lf | err + in there |
| 18:02.31 | Lone_Wanderer | no callback? |
| 18:02.32 | dataw0lf | just, you get the picture, make the url path relative to the calling script, rather than a full URL |
| 18:02.40 | dataw0lf | no, put the callback in there to if you want |
| 18:02.44 | dataw0lf | I'm just saying change the URL |
| 18:02.49 | Lone_Wanderer | k |
| 18:03.10 | Lone_Wanderer | heh |
| 18:03.16 | Lone_Wanderer | lots of "func is not a function" errors |
| 18:03.43 | dataw0lf | oh |
| 18:03.44 | dataw0lf | heh |
| 18:04.04 | dataw0lf | pass the function as displayLines not 'displayLines' |
| 18:04.09 | dataw0lf | no quotes |
| 18:04.12 | Lone_Wanderer | k |
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| 18:05.02 | Lone_Wanderer | well that's working better |
| 18:05.12 | Lone_Wanderer | now I just need to nuke the popup that keeps telling me there's a problem with the request |
| 18:05.24 | dataw0lf | good stuff |
| 18:06.09 | Lone_Wanderer | yay, it seems to be working |
| 18:06.17 | Lone_Wanderer | now to actually do something with the response... |
| 18:07.36 | dataw0lf | good luck |
| 18:07.41 | dataw0lf | AJAX sucks |
| 18:07.48 | Lone_Wanderer | yeah no kidding |
| 18:08.00 | Lone_Wanderer | sadly, it does make sense to use it in this case |
| 18:10.43 | *** join/#uphpu poguy (i=oa@sb2039-15.erin.utoronto.ca) |
| 18:14.23 | poguy | continue doesn't work for switch? |
| 18:15.38 | dataw0lf | poguy: No. |
| 18:15.59 | poguy | how come it said in here that it is possible?http://www.php.net/manual/en/control-structures.switch.php |
| 18:16.46 | _psychic_ | just don't declare a break |
| 18:16.50 | dataw0lf | continue is a synonym of break in a switch statement in PHP |
| 18:18.52 | dataw0lf | because for some reason a switch statement is considered a loop in PHP |
| 18:19.30 | dataw0lf | so, with 'continue', if you use it within a switch statement, since PHP thinks it's a loop, it breaks off current execution. But, because it's not really a loop, it just dumps it outside the switch |
| 18:19.47 | dataw0lf | yes, I'm bitter about it. |
| 18:20.01 | _psychic_ | :) |
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| 18:21.26 | Lone_Wanderer | rightly so |
| 18:21.40 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm bitter that this girl I like is dating some jerk who lives in another state. |
| 18:22.07 | Lone_Wanderer | So he happens to be attractive, closer to her age, and active in the LDS church. So what? I'm a lot closer! |
| 18:22.31 | dataw0lf | Girls will usually go with quality over convenience any day of the week. |
| 18:22.36 | dataw0lf | well, the girls I date, that is. |
| 18:22.38 | dataw0lf | :P |
| 18:23.19 | dataw0lf | hoho |
| 18:23.22 | dataw0lf | you wish buddy |
| 18:23.30 | dataw0lf | sorry, I'm not available. |
| 18:23.45 | Lone_Wanderer | Who's the lucky gal? |
| 18:24.53 | dataw0lf | a medical student with nice legs |
| 18:25.02 | Lone_Wanderer | Helloooo nurse! |
| 18:25.07 | dataw0lf | hello doctor. |
| 18:25.19 | Lone_Wanderer | Even better. |
| 18:25.24 | Lone_Wanderer | If you get sick she can take care of yo. |
| 18:25.26 | Lone_Wanderer | u |
| 18:25.33 | _psychic_ | yeah well you didn't reference her degree until after you referenced her legs. |
| 18:25.45 | mindjuju | looks and legs is one thing (my wife has both) but i do wish she were a little more techie |
| 18:25.51 | dataw0lf | yea, think what type of legs beat out being a doctor. |
| 18:25.59 | _psychic_ | haha |
| 18:26.01 | dataw0lf | ;) |
| 18:26.20 | mindjuju | like i've always tried to get my wife to play halo2 with me, but she gets dizzy |
| 18:26.27 | dataw0lf | she's not techie, although she knows how to demand that I fix her powerbook. |
| 18:26.31 | Lone_Wanderer | There's a word for that... |
| 18:26.40 | Lone_Wanderer | term, whatever. Pygmalion Project. |
| 18:26.52 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: phrase, actually. "about to lose" |
| 18:29.20 | Lone_Wanderer | ~wiki Pygmalion Project |
| 18:30.45 | wps | frick… |
| 18:30.52 | wps | did everyDNS get toasted again? |
| 18:31.19 | Utah_Dave | I heard they've still been under a ddos attack |
| 18:31.34 | fungus | Wow, looks like they did get it again. |
| 18:31.44 | fungus | They were fine for most of the weekend. |
| 18:31.54 | wps | yeah |
| 18:32.02 | dataw0lf | Saturday morning they had some problems |
| 18:32.18 | dataw0lf | looks like a grudge attack though |
| 18:32.18 | wps | I don't understand why people in the world have to do crap like that |
| 18:32.22 | mindjuju | network solutions got hit about a month back |
| 18:32.29 | wps | go for a walk, play with the dog… anything |
| 18:32.38 | mindjuju | who's hitting everydns / why? |
| 18:32.41 | wps | but why do crap |
| 18:32.41 | Lone_Wanderer | How do you typecast in js? I need to force this variable to be a string. |
| 18:32.45 | dataw0lf | I was going to say 'contribute to society', but that works wps |
| 18:32.57 | dataw0lf | let's just ship them off to Madagascar |
| 18:33.08 | Lone_Wanderer | why Madagascar? |
| 18:33.14 | Lone_Wanderer | Send them somewhere with less scenery. |
| 18:33.27 | fungus | Siberia |
| 18:33.31 | dataw0lf | so they'll devolve into savagery and we can have some REAL reality shows |
| 18:33.33 | dataw0lf | know what I'm sayin |
| 18:33.45 | _psychic_ | Lone_Wanderer: s = String(var); |
| 18:33.47 | Lone_Wanderer | That's what I thought "Survivor" was going to be. |
| 18:34.03 | Lone_Wanderer | People literally killing each other. |
| 18:34.04 | dataw0lf | I know, it disappointed. |
| 18:34.05 | Lone_Wanderer | I couldn't decide if I was excited or horrified at the idea. |
| 18:34.52 | dataw0lf | there isn't much to think about. A bunch of barely intelligent gamma males + sharp objects = entertainment |
| 18:35.30 | mindjuju | who's got a bead on a decent streaming tehcno station? |
| 18:35.34 | dataw0lf | oonf oonf oonf oonf |
| 18:35.40 | dataw0lf | go stand outside a rave |
| 18:36.09 | mindjuju | it's monday morning... no raves |
| 18:36.24 | fungus | raves are only good when you are high on drugs. |
| 18:36.34 | dataw0lf | and even then, not so much |
| 18:36.34 | Lone_Wanderer | I've enjoyed raves in a non-high state. |
| 18:36.48 | Lone_Wanderer | Then again, I've never been to one on e either, so I don't know what I'm missing. |
| 18:37.17 | dataw0lf | I don't know what you're missing, but I know you're hanging on to a couple million brain cells |
| 18:37.41 | Lone_Wanderer | Yeah, I was born with the kind of brain that has trouble operating correctly on good days |
| 18:37.59 | Lone_Wanderer | so I decided that throwing illicit drugs of unknown origin into the mix probably wouldn't be a good idea |
| 18:38.02 | dataw0lf | no sense losing the few you have to a drug. |
| 18:38.49 | dataw0lf | pssst, synic really likes them, play it loud |
| 18:38.59 | fungus | Yay, pixies. |
| 18:39.09 | dataw0lf | the Pixies rock |
| 18:39.34 | bigdog_ut | i got all his albums |
| 18:40.00 | mindjuju | sup bigdog_ut? |
| 18:41.17 | bigdog_ut | not much |
| 18:41.36 | dataw0lf | someone point a successful snow dance ritual toward Reno, please |
| 18:43.52 | mindjuju | have you heard that dr. demento about "the truth of D n D"? |
| 18:44.07 | mindjuju | where they are like, "roll and see if i make out with that chick" |
| 18:44.08 | Lone_Wanderer | The one I just quoted, or a different one? |
| 18:44.20 | mindjuju | i think it was that one |
| 18:44.31 | mindjuju | haven't heard it in a while, think i have it somewhere |
| 18:45.08 | dataw0lf | I got a critical hit on this blonde a couple months ago. |
| 18:45.14 | Lone_Wanderer | google the string "I am Gallstaf, sorcerer of light" |
| 18:45.17 | dataw0lf | 'twas awesome. |
| 18:45.23 | Lone_Wanderer | Natural 20? |
| 18:45.31 | dataw0lf | oh yea. |
| 18:45.56 | Lone_Wanderer | You have photographic evidence? |
| 18:46.36 | dataw0lf | No, my camera destroyed when it lost a saving throw versus Toilet |
| 18:46.41 | dataw0lf | was* |
| 18:47.33 | wps | I just discovered this PhishTank |
| 18:47.37 | wps | that's cool |
| 18:47.37 | wps | http://www.phishtank.com |
| 18:47.40 | Lone_Wanderer | My favorite profile ever said "I was going to write about how awesome I am but I failed my saving throw versus feelings of inadequacy." |
| 18:48.11 | dataw0lf | haha. |
| 18:49.03 | wps | most internet problems would be remedied if ISPs simply restricted traffic from outside of the country |
| 18:49.25 | wps | most porn and phishing comes from outside the US |
| 18:49.31 | dataw0lf | most likely, but that'd be a step in the wrong direction |
| 18:49.37 | wps | agreed |
| 18:50.00 | wps | it's be a nice personal setting though |
| 18:50.11 | wps | … that I could set on my mom's computer for example |
| 18:50.14 | dataw0lf | it does get tiring watching all those Dutch and Korean ips go by though |
| 18:50.57 | dataw0lf | Theoretically you could blacklist major foreign ip blocks in engaging in TCP/IP traffic with your mother. |
| 18:51.18 | dataw0lf | OS X or Windows? |
| 18:52.37 | wps | true |
| 18:52.38 | dataw0lf | http://www.hakusan.tsg.ne.jp/tjkawa/lib/krfilter/ALL.sh.txt |
| 18:53.03 | dataw0lf | Taiwanese, Korean, Chinese, Hong-Kong, Indonesian ip blocks |
| 18:53.04 | wps | is that a good list of blocks to block? |
| 18:53.09 | wps | cool |
| 19:05.12 | Lone_Wanderer | man, ##javascript is full of noobs asking questions and empty of people answering them |
| 19:07.57 | dataw0lf | just ask your questions here. |
| 19:09.01 | Lone_Wanderer | response is a string, 8015551212,8012345678 |
| 19:09.06 | Lone_Wanderer | nums = response.split(","); |
| 19:09.28 | Lone_Wanderer | so now nums should be an array with two members, 8015551212 and 8012345678 |
| 19:09.50 | Lone_Wanderer | but for (num in nums) { alert(num); } just alerts 0, 1, and extend |
| 19:10.54 | Lone_Wanderer | and alert('nums is a ' + typeof nums) gives object, when I believe it should be "Array" |
| 19:12.11 | dataw0lf | try alert(nums[num]) |
| 19:12.48 | Lone_Wanderer | ohhh |
| 19:13.38 | Lone_Wanderer | I see |
| 19:13.48 | Lone_Wanderer | works differently than in PHP |
| 19:14.44 | Lone_Wanderer | Now I just need to get rid of that last pesky "extend" and I'll be good |
| 19:21.45 | dataw0lf | Want me to send you my paypal account now? |
| 19:22.08 | Lone_Wanderer | Sure :p |
| 19:22.10 | dataw0lf | or we can wait til the end of the day. |
| 19:22.18 | Lone_Wanderer | Best to wait 'till the end of the day. |
| 19:22.20 | dataw0lf | k |
| 19:22.23 | Lone_Wanderer | Can I send cookies through Paypal? |
| 19:25.34 | dataw0lf | are they chocolate chip? |
| 19:25.43 | Lone_Wanderer | They haven't been made yet, so sure. |
| 19:26.07 | dataw0lf | k, um, bs = new Cookie('chocolate chip') |
| 19:26.26 | dataw0lf | bs.send('POST', 'dataw0lf') |
| 19:26.35 | Lone_Wanderer | missed a ' |
| 19:26.41 | Lone_Wanderer | f' |
| 19:26.42 | Lone_Wanderer | or not |
| 19:30.39 | dataw0lf | my code needs no debugging |
| 19:30.42 | dataw0lf | >_> |
| 19:30.44 | dataw0lf | <_< |
| 19:31.31 | Lone_Wanderer | If you'd been a Marine I could insert an "In the Marines they taught us not to ______" line here. |
| 19:31.59 | Lone_Wanderer | Speaking of which, does it bug you when people make references to your time in the military? |
| 19:33.13 | Lone_Wanderer | Also, once I've created a td object via num_cell = row.inserCell(0);, how do I add text to the td? |
| 19:34.40 | wps | ~lart Novell |
| 19:34.49 | wps | great, not Novell is forking OO.org |
| 19:35.35 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: num_cell.innerHTML = 'some stuff'; |
| 19:35.43 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: Nah, it doesn't bother. |
| 19:35.45 | Lone_Wanderer | I thought that using innerHTML was bad? |
| 19:35.51 | dataw0lf | Especially since I'm the prime invoker of said service. |
| 19:36.16 | Lone_Wanderer | Like, shouldn't I be accessing a text node of the td or something? |
| 19:36.42 | dataw0lf | using innerHTML isn't all that bad, don't listen to people |
| 19:36.47 | Lone_Wanderer | ok |
| 19:38.40 | dataw0lf | just remember to escape. |
| 19:38.50 | Lone_Wanderer | escape the HTML? |
| 19:39.27 | dataw0lf | yes < and & |
| 19:39.33 | Lone_Wanderer | k |
| 19:40.57 | Lone_Wanderer | Is there a problem with grabbing the id (document.getElementById) of a table that's nested? |
| 19:41.07 | dataw0lf | Crikey, I make some pretty stupid errors when I'm intoxicated while coding. |
| 19:41.17 | Lone_Wanderer | I know a guy, a perl hacker |
| 19:41.26 | Lone_Wanderer | says he wrote some perl scripts once while he was on acid |
| 19:41.38 | Lone_Wanderer | came back later and they worked fine but he couldn't figure out why |
| 19:41.56 | dataw0lf | Perl and LSD? That sounds like quite the 'unreadable code' phenomenon |
| 19:43.44 | Lone_Wanderer | (pop) because I've got num_table = document.getElementById(num_table); and <table border="0" id="num_table">, but when I try to num_table.rows.length I get "num_tables has no properties" |
| 19:44.25 | timinator | could you deduct your LSD off your taxes then? |
| 19:44.28 | timinator | work expense? |
| 19:44.56 | Lone_Wanderer | That's not a bad idea. |
| 19:45.11 | timinator | it's needed to read the code |
| 19:45.40 | Lone_Wanderer | I've thought about getting a brain implant - the kind they've put in monkeys and disabled people - to help me code faster |
| 19:45.48 | Lone_Wanderer | but I don't think the people who are doing them would agree to it |
| 19:47.23 | dataw0lf | I need a brain regulator so I code slower. |
| 19:47.55 | Lone_Wanderer | Translation: You need a coffee regulator so you can code slower. |
| 19:48.03 | mindjuju | dataw0lf, you don't need a brain regulator, you need a brain buffer |
| 19:48.12 | mindjuju | that way you can think fast, and give your hands time to catch up |
| 19:48.26 | Black_Chaos | till you get a buffer overflow |
| 19:48.47 | mindjuju | hmmm... |
| 19:49.06 | mindjuju | well, just slide in a couple of extra banks for expanded memory |
| 19:49.23 | timinator | and some L2 cache |
| 19:49.29 | mindjuju | yup |
| 19:49.34 | dataw0lf | I'm looking forward to the day I can store memories on physical storage |
| 19:49.56 | timinator | it'll happen |
| 19:49.57 | dataw0lf | I'll be unstoppable!! |
| 19:49.58 | timinator | soon |
| 19:50.00 | dataw0lf | like the hulk |
| 19:55.45 | timinator | no, if you could turn yourself into some indestructible metal substance that resembles mercury, then you'd be unstoppable |
| 19:56.19 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: What do you need help with? |
| 19:56.45 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, the next step is to get access to the table so I can fiddle with the rows inside of it. |
| 19:57.07 | Lone_Wanderer | So I can list the results of the ajax dealybob |
| 19:59.42 | dataw0lf | table = document.getElementById('tableID'); |
| 19:59.50 | dataw0lf | rows = table.getElementsByTagName('tr') |
| 20:00.09 | Lone_Wanderer | done did that |
| 20:00.16 | Lone_Wanderer | the first one anyway. says it doesn't have any properties. |
| 20:00.30 | Lone_Wanderer | ohhh, it's got to be quoted? |
| 20:00.42 | Lone_Wanderer | That would be part of the problem. |
| 20:00.44 | dataw0lf | yea, it's a string |
| 20:01.01 | Lone_Wanderer | schwing, that was the problem |
| 20:01.39 | dataw0lf | coolio |
| 20:03.03 | dataw0lf | woohoo now I just have to clean up this database |
| 20:04.33 | Lone_Wanderer | how do I access an object's css information? I need to set this td's class |
| 20:04.35 | jsmith | Hmmmmmnnnn... |
| 20:04.39 | Lone_Wanderer | you're working on something similar? |
| 20:04.52 | Lone_Wanderer | ohh I think I found it |
| 20:05.04 | jsmith | I'm writing an AJAX interfact to different parts of Asterisk |
| 20:05.08 | Lone_Wanderer | nope, that's for general rules |
| 20:05.17 | Lone_Wanderer | cool |
| 20:05.19 | jsmith | Right now, I'm working on a Queue status application |
| 20:06.04 | dataw0lf | I've been working on an AJAX firewall admin / network monitoring tool on my personal time. |
| 20:06.34 | dataw0lf | AJAX can be fun once you get it working the way you want it |
| 20:09.00 | dataw0lf | working on live packet manipulation with it, but that's got quite a few problems, which are alleviated somewhat by it's intended use on a LAN. |
| 20:10.20 | Lone_Wanderer | you're manipulating live packets with ajax? |
| 20:12.10 | dataw0lf | Yes. |
| 20:12.15 | Lone_Wanderer | Have fun. |
| 20:12.19 | dataw0lf | I am. |
| 20:12.45 | dataw0lf | I can monitor live packets right now, like a web based ethereal |
| 20:12.54 | Lone_Wanderer | that's awesome |
| 20:12.56 | dataw0lf | it helps that I'm using some good Python modules on the server side |
| 20:13.03 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm just having fun making this stupid line provisioning service work |
| 20:13.33 | Lone_Wanderer | Oh, hey. My brother, the "What would you do if you were president?" guy |
| 20:13.46 | dataw0lf | The JavaScript learning curve is pretty shallow once you get past the first couple days of real hackery. |
| 20:13.53 | Lone_Wanderer | after a few more emails he gave me the "These people are evil to the core. I don't care what happens to them in prison" line. |
| 20:14.10 | dataw0lf | well, the thing he is, he does care. |
| 20:14.14 | dataw0lf | he wants them to be tortured. |
| 20:14.34 | Lone_Wanderer | I fired back with a really low blow about something he did when he was a teenager, which would put him in the "evil to the core" category for 90% of Americans. |
| 20:14.41 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm waiting to see if he responds. |
| 20:14.58 | dataw0lf | I don't wanna know |
| 20:15.06 | Lone_Wanderer | You're right, you don't. I wouldn't tell you anyway. |
| 20:15.08 | Lone_Wanderer | :p |
| 20:15.11 | dataw0lf | good. |
| 20:15.59 | dataw0lf | and then I'm done! |
| 20:16.05 | Lone_Wanderer | yay for done! |
| 20:16.09 | dataw0lf | of course, me being done means more work.. |
| 20:16.26 | timinator | always does |
| 20:16.29 | dataw0lf | so true |
| 20:16.36 | dataw0lf | oh well, I'll actually take my lunch break then. |
| 20:16.56 | dataw0lf | it feels guilty to go to lunch when you're in the middle of something. |
| 20:17.17 | Lone_Wanderer | I solve that by not going to lunch until I'm in physical pain. |
| 20:17.26 | dataw0lf | hey, me too! |
| 20:17.37 | dataw0lf | I forget to eat alot, my girlfriend has to remind me constantly. |
| 20:25.04 | Lone_Wanderer | You have a girlfriend, and yet you scored with a hot blonde last week? |
| 20:25.33 | dataw0lf | last week? |
| 20:25.44 | dataw0lf | I didn't score with a hot blonde last week. |
| 20:25.48 | Lone_Wanderer | I thought that's what you said. |
| 20:25.56 | dataw0lf | A couple months ago? |
| 20:26.07 | timinator | minor technicality |
| 20:26.22 | dataw0lf | I don't cheat on people. |
| 20:26.25 | Lone_Wanderer | Some people have relationships where that kind of thing is allowed. |
| 20:26.47 | dataw0lf | Yea, well, I think that's ridiculous. |
| 20:26.53 | Lone_Wanderer | Likewise. |
| 20:30.08 | dataw0lf | booya, script finished. |
| 20:32.01 | dataw0lf | I'm thinking of using JSON instead of XML data for packetbot, anyone used JSON extensively? |
| 20:33.24 | dataw0lf | but it looks like JSON uses a complete eval when compiling it's data? |
| 20:33.40 | dataw0lf | so is JSON definitely slower, then? |
| 20:36.38 | dataw0lf | Well, I'd think JSON would be faster at first, but if it's evalling the code to get the structure of the hash/array, whatever, then that's problematic for a number of reasons |
| 20:46.49 | Lone_Wanderer | I need to get an html, php, etc. tutorial for my co-worker |
| 20:48.15 | dataw0lf | that's alot of ground to cover. |
| 20:48.21 | _psychic_ | there might be some decent ones on php.net though |
| 20:48.21 | Lone_Wanderer | Yeah I know. |
| 20:48.33 | Lone_Wanderer | He's used to ASP.NET |
| 20:48.40 | Lone_Wanderer | which practically does everything for you |
| 20:48.45 | Lone_Wanderer | brb, explaining a foreach loop. again. |
| 20:50.13 | dataw0lf | Rule number one of web development: Never trust an ASP programmer. |
| 20:51.35 | _psychic_ | our front end guy left to go do ASP |
| 20:51.52 | dataw0lf | ASP programmers as co-workers must allow for some excellent comments, however |
| 20:51.59 | dataw0lf | "If you don't get your ASP out of here..." |
| 20:52.23 | dataw0lf | "Good language, my ASP" |
| 20:52.28 | dataw0lf | etc |
| 20:53.00 | dataw0lf | these are the things I think about. |
| 20:53.03 | dataw0lf | Yes, I'm pathetic. |
| 20:54.09 | _psychic_ | hehe |
| 20:54.52 | Lone_Wanderer | If I have to say "No, close the OTHER tag" one more time... |
| 20:55.08 | dataw0lf | One of these days, Alice |
| 20:57.01 | Lone_Wanderer | There's got to be a tactful way to tell him that this isn't working out. |
| 20:57.17 | dataw0lf | firing works |
| 20:57.24 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, he's got other responsibilities |
| 20:57.35 | Lone_Wanderer | he's just decided that he's going to help me out by learning PHP |
| 20:57.49 | Lone_Wanderer | which is a problem because he's never written HTML before, and doesn't understand the concept of a loop |
| 20:58.06 | _psychic_ | and ASP developer whose never written HTML?! |
| 20:58.10 | Lone_Wanderer | he just uses dreamweaver and visual studio |
| 20:58.21 | _psychic_ | ohmygoodness |
| 20:58.38 | _psychic_ | "Hello, I'm a web developer, but I've never written a line of HTML." |
| 20:58.50 | dataw0lf | he said ASP developer |
| 20:58.52 | dataw0lf | not web developer |
| 20:59.10 | Lone_Wanderer | and since it lets you bind a data source to an html widget, you can (for example) write a query, then bind that query (as a datasource) to a dropdown |
| 20:59.32 | dataw0lf | position of ASP developer is the equivalent of "I just picked this homeless guy off the street who was sitting on a computer monitor to code for us" |
| 20:59.37 | Lone_Wanderer | and presto, .NET does all the work for you - you've got a dropdown populated with the results of the query. no knowledge of iteration required. |
| 20:59.48 | _psychic_ | holy crap |
| 21:00.12 | _psychic_ | Guess I should have known that.. but that's pretty freaking amazing. |
| 21:00.20 | _psychic_ | MS is all about the tools. |
| 21:00.34 | Lone_Wanderer | yeah it's cool, but it means you can develop stuff without knowing anything |
| 21:00.34 | _psychic_ | Which is very not cool. |
| 21:00.37 | olds | _psychic_: that's quite the understatement |
| 21:00.48 | _psychic_ | geez |
| 21:01.09 | _psychic_ | They often get paid just as well or better than PHP devs. |
| 21:01.29 | dataw0lf | well, PHP 'devs' aren't much better. |
| 21:01.34 | dataw0lf | Well, they're getting better. |
| 21:01.49 | _psychic_ | well, they're extra good at smooshing up HTML with code |
| 21:01.58 | _psychic_ | so they at least *know* HTML |
| 21:02.13 | _psychic_ | I mean, a good programmer will separate things and architect stuff well... but man |
| 21:02.27 | _psychic_ | This makes his parting so much more ... sour. |
| 21:03.48 | dataw0lf | honestly, that latest thedailywtf can't be real |
| 21:04.47 | _psychic_ | "First Day Foresight" ? |
| 21:05.42 | dataw0lf | yes. |
| 21:06.00 | olds | yea it's a good one |
| 21:09.51 | dataw0lf | seriously, I hate Outlook with a passion |
| 21:10.07 | dataw0lf | try running Outlook and the Perforce Windows client at the same time. That's a fun one. |
| 21:12.06 | dataw0lf | olds: you read the one about the wi-fi a couple days ago? |
| 21:12.06 | *** part/#uphpu poguy (i=oa@sb2039-15.erin.utoronto.ca) |
| 21:12.12 | Lone_Wanderer | okay |
| 21:12.16 | Lone_Wanderer | time to eat, bbl |
| 21:12.56 | olds | yup dataw0lf |
| 21:13.52 | dataw0lf | olds: I wonder what U that was at |
| 21:15.19 | olds | yea, wasn't the UofU |
| 21:20.58 | dataw0lf | how about the BCS championship |
| 21:21.05 | dataw0lf | what.. was... that. |
| 21:21.15 | jsmith | JavaScript question... is there an easy way to get a node by Id for a subset of the DOM -- I can use document.getElementById(), but there doesn't appear to be an element.getElementById() |
| 21:21.34 | jsmith | Yes, I know... ids should be unique... but in this case, I don't want them to be. |
| 21:22.41 | dataw0lf | node.getElementById() |
| 21:24.56 | jsmith | So, in short I should be able to do var foo = document.getElementById("object1").getElementById("name")? |
| 21:25.16 | dataw0lf | no, I'm wrong, I think. |
| 21:25.17 | jsmith | Assuming, of course, that there's an element with the id of "name" inside of the element with id "object1"... |
| 21:25.28 | _psychic_ | use classes rather than ids |
| 21:25.38 | dataw0lf | yar. |
| 21:25.46 | olds | or use the prototype $() function |
| 21:25.54 | _psychic_ | yay for prototype |
| 21:25.58 | olds | get all of them, and check the parentNode |
| 21:27.19 | jsmith | olds: That works... can I just do something like: |
| 21:27.19 | jsmith | Actually, that doesn't work. |
| 21:27.41 | jsmith | Because getElementById will only return the first one... there's now way to get *all* the elements with the same id |
| 21:27.52 | olds | yes there is |
| 21:27.59 | olds | I'm pretty sure prototype will do that |
| 21:28.12 | _psychic_ | jsmith: you can't have duplicate ids |
| 21:28.15 | _psychic_ | use classes |
| 21:29.10 | dataw0lf | yea, DOM requires you to have different ids. |
| 21:29.25 | _psychic_ | You can get all the elements with the same class |
| 21:29.26 | jsmith | Might as well just use unique ids to begin with, then. |
| 21:29.34 | olds | yup |
| 21:29.55 | dataw0lf | in IE you can gather up all the elements with the same id, but I don't think you can in Firefox. |
| 21:30.03 | jsmith | I'm already using classes for style sheets, and the classes don't match up -- in other words, I'm using one class for more than one type of id, and I don't want a class for every id. |
| 21:30.30 | _psychic_ | elements can have more than one class |
| 21:30.44 | jsmith | Yes, I know. |
| 21:30.56 | jsmith | But I don't want that many classes in my code |
| 21:30.56 | _psychic_ | I don't understand the problem, I guess. :/ |
| 21:31.01 | jsmith | I'll just use unique ids. |
| 21:31.30 | dataw0lf | you can just postfix them with an integer and iterate through them |
| 21:31.54 | dataw0lf | and that'll be DOM safe and still have code condensation you seem to be looking for. |
| 21:33.15 | _psychic_ | (which is pretty much the same as adding a class, isn't it?) |
| 21:34.06 | dataw0lf | yes but he wants them grouped both by id and by class because of whatever issue |
| 21:35.40 | _psychic_ | I'll shutup now, cause the more we talk about this, the less I understand his requirements. ;) |
| 21:36.22 | dataw0lf | I'm pretty sure jsmith has X reason for doing what he's doing |
| 21:37.31 | _psychic_ | yeah me too, I just don't know the reasons nor the requirements at this point |
| 21:41.40 | dataw0lf | you could run a debugger in your head |
| 21:41.45 | dataw0lf | or, like, do test compiles in your head |
| 21:41.48 | dataw0lf | that'd be so sweet |
| 21:41.51 | dataw0lf | walking down the street |
| 21:41.54 | dataw0lf | smoking a cigarette |
| 21:41.57 | dataw0lf | and compiling |
| 21:42.15 | Lone_Wanderer | I was thinking of building a harness |
| 21:42.17 | dataw0lf | you probably wouldn't want to run any backtraces while driving though |
| 21:42.18 | Lone_Wanderer | that has two extra arms on it |
| 21:42.28 | Lone_Wanderer | and teaching myself to control them |
| 21:42.31 | Lone_Wanderer | so I'd have four arms |
| 21:43.00 | Lone_Wanderer | so I could type and drink a coke at the same time |
| 21:43.22 | Lone_Wanderer | such a productive use of multi-million dollar technology |
| 21:44.51 | dataw0lf | ok, Kali. |
| 21:44.58 | Lone_Wanderer | Kali? |
| 21:45.14 | Lone_Wanderer | Or maybe I'd have just one extra arm, and instead of the fourth arm add another head |
| 21:46.18 | Lone_Wanderer | Ahh, the Hindu goddess. |
| 21:46.19 | _psychic_ | this sounds like a strong bad email I watched once. |
| 21:47.00 | dataw0lf | <3 Strong Bad |
| 21:47.10 | _psychic_ | one hand |
| 21:47.13 | _psychic_ | would be a bucket |
| 21:48.54 | dataw0lf | I think I'm good in the hand department. |
| 21:53.16 | Lone_Wanderer | You've got enough hands to keep yourself happy? |
| 21:53.53 | Lone_Wanderer | Inuendo not intended >.> |
| 21:55.26 | herlo | innuendo |
| 21:55.33 | Lone_Wanderer | Thanks. |
| 21:55.47 | dataw0lf | I just don't see a pressing need to be adding hands or arms to my body. |
| 21:56.09 | fungus | I would love a few more arms. |
| 21:56.21 | fungus | imagine the increase in productivity. |
| 21:56.23 | herlo | http://www.symfony-project.com/ |
| 21:56.38 | herlo | Stumbled across it this morning |
| 21:56.50 | dataw0lf | huh, first time I've ever seen it, herlo |
| 21:57.29 | herlo | dataw0lf: btw, I've been reading up on traffic controls |
| 21:57.42 | dataw0lf | good stuff |
| 21:57.55 | _psychic_ | symfony is nasy imho |
| 21:58.00 | _psychic_ | *nasty |
| 21:58.06 | herlo | dataw0lf: http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Bandwidth-Limiting-HOWTO/ |
| 21:58.13 | herlo | _psychic_: why? |
| 21:58.25 | dataw0lf | herlo: yea, LARTC is excellent too |
| 21:58.32 | herlo | _psychic_: keep in mind I've just come across it... |
| 21:58.44 | herlo | dataw0lf: lots of info there, still haven't wrapped my head around it... |
| 21:59.27 | herlo | dataw0lf: LARTC? |
| 21:59.30 | dataw0lf | herlo: it takes a fair amount of knowledge of the stack, or at least it helps alot |
| 21:59.38 | dataw0lf | Linux Advanced Routing and Traffic Control |
| 21:59.42 | herlo | I understand the network stack |
| 21:59.47 | herlo | mostly |
| 21:59.51 | herlo | dataw0lf: thx for the def |
| 21:59.53 | dataw0lf | http://lartc.org |
| 21:59.57 | herlo | tx |
| 22:00.06 | dataw0lf | np |
| 22:00.20 | _psychic_ | herlo: just throwing in my $0.02 - it wasn't really a commentary on your preferences or anything. |
| 22:00.47 | herlo | _psychic_: I don't have a preference about it yet, that's why I was asking for why you think symfony sucks |
| 22:00.48 | dataw0lf | _psychic_: yea, but why don't you like it? |
| 22:01.05 | herlo | _psychic_: what dataw0lf said |
| 22:01.34 | _psychic_ | yaml |
| 22:01.35 | _psychic_ | propel |
| 22:02.00 | _psychic_ | lots of both |
| 22:02.08 | _psychic_ | makes for slow development |
| 22:02.26 | _psychic_ | it also seems like you have "init" practically everything |
| 22:02.31 | dataw0lf | Never used Propel, but PHP seems particularly unfit for ORM approaches. |
| 22:02.50 | _psychic_ | propel is a big XML fan |
| 22:02.58 | _psychic_ | so when you using YAML and XML all over the place |
| 22:03.02 | _psychic_ | you might as well use Java |
| 22:03.17 | _psychic_ | config files are really annoying |
| 22:03.30 | _psychic_ | especially when you have to update them when you update your schema |
| 22:03.46 | _psychic_ | dataw0lf: cakes works okay, but my opinion of cake could be biased |
| 22:03.55 | dataw0lf | I don't like cake. |
| 22:04.11 | dataw0lf | but I'm coming from the land of Python when judging ORM frameworks, so I _know_ I'm biased. |
| 22:04.20 | _psychic_ | in symfony you also have to load your own models, which is kinda duh too |
| 22:04.24 | Lone_Wanderer | Do you like Django? |
| 22:04.31 | *** join/#uphpu macnewbold (n=mac@cg.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 22:04.32 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o macnewbold] by ChanServ |
| 22:04.40 | _psychic_ | dataw0lf: why didn't you like cake? |
| 22:04.53 | _psychic_ | I can't do XML anymore. Its retarded. |
| 22:05.08 | herlo | _psychic_: but then you don't have well-formedness |
| 22:05.09 | _psychic_ | No reason you should have to inform the data layer what the schema looks like. None. |
| 22:05.18 | _psychic_ | herlo: what do you mean? |
| 22:06.10 | dataw0lf | _psychic_: PHP just doesn't lend itself well to a good ORM model currently. It's not really the framework, per se. |
| 22:06.42 | _psychic_ | php4, yeah |
| 22:07.06 | dataw0lf | PHP 5, either. |
| 22:08.00 | _psychic_ | in what respect? |
| 22:09.00 | Lone_Wanderer | Okay, that's it. |
| 22:09.03 | Lone_Wanderer | I need rum. |
| 22:10.03 | dataw0lf | In expanding their OOP model considerably, the code has gotten dirtier. I don't like how PHP handles object identity and type. I don't like how PHP's object iteration works. I don't like their interface approach. I don't like alot of things. |
| 22:10.03 | Lone_Wanderer | Speaking of which, Ten Cane rum is good, but definitely not worth $35 a bottle. |
| 22:10.13 | Lone_Wanderer | a lot |
| 22:10.15 | Lone_Wanderer | sorry |
| 22:11.02 | dataw0lf | s/don't like alot of things/hate PHP 5's OOP model and crap exception support |
| 22:11.13 | dataw0lf | there |
| 22:12.26 | dataw0lf | I have to wrestle with PHP in many just-above-simple OOP designs. |
| 22:12.55 | _psychic_ | I'll agree that PHP's object model is kinda crappy |
| 22:13.00 | _psychic_ | wholeheartedly |
| 22:13.06 | _psychic_ | but ORM is a possibility |
| 22:13.57 | dataw0lf | I'm not saying that ORM doesn't work in PHP. I'm just saying that using it in Python is a whole lot easier to buy into. |
| 22:14.21 | _psychic_ | I'd imagine so |
| 22:14.27 | _psychic_ | Python looks pretty nice. |
| 22:14.49 | dataw0lf | The tradeoff for using PHP ORM isn't worth it to me. |
| 22:15.01 | dataw0lf | I'll just stick to a database object with the methods I need. |
| 22:15.33 | dataw0lf | because escalating PHP any further than that OOP wise is too painful. |
| 22:16.01 | Lone_Wanderer | is it possible to use both python and php in the same web site, without things being too horribly painful? |
| 22:16.29 | _psychic_ | mixed deployments are almost always bad news |
| 22:17.16 | timinator | would you all consider PHP a scripting language or a programming language? |
| 22:17.37 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: It's not too bad. |
| 22:17.38 | _psychic_ | both |
| 22:17.40 | Lone_Wanderer | I guess that depends on whether you're writing a script or a program with it. |
| 22:18.18 | dataw0lf | timinator: The 'differences' between scripting language and programming language are just talking points. I dislike the phrase 'scripting language' in general. |
| 22:19.16 | dataw0lf | by the definition people usually go with in regards to 'scripting language', PHP is a scripting language. |
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| 22:19.25 | _psychic_ | dataw0lf: isn't Python as well |
| 22:19.29 | dataw0lf | But regardless of pretty much any definition you can find, it's a 'programming language' too |
| 22:19.45 | _psychic_ | Yeah, HTML is also a programming language. |
| 22:19.56 | dataw0lf | _psychic_: Yes, by the common definition of scripting language, Python would be considered a scripting language. |
| 22:20.05 | _psychic_ | its interpreted, right? |
| 22:20.08 | dataw0lf | Yes. |
| 22:20.12 | mindjuju | logo is a programming language |
| 22:20.16 | timinator | instead of compliled |
| 22:20.19 | _psychic_ | logo was the bomg |
| 22:20.21 | _psychic_ | *bomb |
| 22:20.33 | mindjuju | i programmed my little triangle to go left 30, down 30, right 30, up 30 |
| 22:20.36 | mindjuju | yeah! |
| 22:20.37 | _psychic_ | My first logo drawing was a swastika. |
| 22:20.57 | dataw0lf | timinator: well, the kicker is, that Python is compiled too. |
| 22:21.05 | _psychic_ | dataw0lf: wha? |
| 22:21.09 | dataw0lf | thus, the phrase 'scripting language' is kinda retarded. |
| 22:22.09 | Lone_Wanderer | HTML isn't a programming language, it's a markup language. Just look at the name of it :p |
| 22:22.16 | Lone_Wanderer | I loved logo |
| 22:22.29 | Lone_Wanderer | Okay good. |
| 22:22.34 | dataw0lf | A better way to describe languages would be |
| 22:22.35 | Lone_Wanderer | I didn't want to have to kill anyone today. |
| 22:22.55 | Lone_Wanderer | I didn't want to have to modify my database today either. |
| 22:23.07 | dataw0lf | "Python is a high-level, Strong and dynamic typed interpreted language |
| 22:23.11 | Lone_Wanderer | I don't suppose there's any way to put a database schema into svn, is there? |
| 22:23.13 | dataw0lf | " |
| 22:23.18 | mindjuju | somebody here is in strong need of a good lart |
| 22:23.18 | _psychic_ | Lone_Wanderer: why not? |
| 22:23.22 | mindjuju | ~rlart |
| 22:23.24 | _psychic_ | ~lart mindjuju |
| 22:23.40 | dataw0lf | ~lart himself |
| 22:24.03 | mindjuju | ~wiseguy _psychic_ |
| 22:24.05 | jbot | ACTION runs up to _psychic_ and pokes _psychic_ in the eyes! |
| 22:24.22 | Lone_Wanderer | ~lart spam |
| 22:25.48 | Lone_Wanderer | ASP Developer: "Someone's doing something!" in a tone of surprise & suspicion. |
| 22:26.50 | mindjuju | ~timinator _psychic_ |
| 22:27.20 | timinator | what happened to ~timinator??? |
| 22:27.27 | mindjuju | ohhh... whoops |
| 22:27.35 | mindjuju | ~timattack _psychic_ |
| 22:27.36 | jbot | ACTION grabs an axe and starts to cut _psychic_ down to size! |
| 22:27.41 | mindjuju | yeah! |
| 22:27.44 | Lone_Wanderer | ~lart stupid database schemas |
| 22:28.04 | dataw0lf | http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200612/s1803643.htm |
| 22:28.08 | mindjuju | i like the timattack one, it has a couple of randomizers |
| 22:28.17 | mindjuju | ~timattack _psychic_ |
| 22:28.18 | jbot | ACTION grabs an axe and starts to chase _psychic_! |
| 22:28.24 | _psychic_ | hm |
| 22:28.27 | _psychic_ | not so random |
| 22:28.40 | mindjuju | ~timattack _psychic_ |
| 22:28.42 | jbot | ACTION get's Ash's chainsaw and starts to cut _psychic_ down to size! |
| 22:28.54 | mindjuju | yup! |
| 22:29.00 | mindjuju | where's ash when you need him |
| 22:29.20 | dataw0lf | Working at S-Mart |
| 22:29.32 | mindjuju | ah yeah! DW knows what up! |
| 22:29.34 | Lone_Wanderer | Ashley Oviatt is working as S-Mart? |
| 22:30.00 | dataw0lf | mindjuju: course I do |
| 22:30.04 | Lone_Wanderer | (And what's S-Mart?) |
| 22:30.23 | mindjuju | it's where ash works |
| 22:30.28 | Lone_Wanderer | Who's Ash? |
| 22:30.46 | drip | tsk tsk tsk |
| 22:31.06 | mindjuju | Army of Darkness - Well the whole Evil Dead series |
| 22:31.17 | Lone_Wanderer | ahhhhh, I see |
| 22:31.19 | dataw0lf | "Now listen up, you primitive screwheads. See this? This... is my boomstick! The 12-gauge double-barrelled Remington. S-Mart's top of the line. You can find this baby in the sporting goods department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Grand R< |
| 22:31.40 | drip | ..apids, Michigan |
| 22:31.48 | drip | retails for about.... |
| 22:31.48 | mindjuju | that movie was soooo good |
| 22:31.49 | drip | he he |
| 22:31.55 | dataw0lf | dang it, my client sucks |
| 22:32.12 | mindjuju | Lone_Wanderer, if you do anything this week, it should be to watch Army of Darkness |
| 22:32.19 | drip | always makes for a great laugh. |
| 22:32.21 | mindjuju | it really is a must |
| 22:32.45 | dataw0lf | Don't touch that, please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand things with alloys, and compositions and things with.... molecular structure. |
| 22:32.57 | mindjuju | rotfl |
| 22:33.23 | dataw0lf | What? Were you raised in a barn? Shut the door! Probably were raised in a barn, along with all the other primitives... |
| 22:33.32 | drip | If only my wife had a nickel for every time I told her to "Hail to the King baby!" |
| 22:34.25 | drip | of course.. the alternate ending is great if you've seen it. |
| 22:34.27 | dataw0lf | "You'll never retrieve the Necronomicon! You'll die before you get it!" "Hey, what's that on your face?" "Huh?" <shovelful of dirt> |
| 22:34.56 | dataw0lf | Ok little fella! Here's a little hot chocolate for ya! HAHAHAHAHA! |
| 22:35.02 | mindjuju | the best part has to be when he's got to incant that phrase and he can't remember it so he just mungles it |
| 22:35.10 | dataw0lf | sorry, besides the Big Lebowski, that's the most quotable movie ever |
| 22:35.22 | drip | Good.. Bad.. I'm the guy with the gun. |
| 22:35.23 | Lone_Wanderer | is that movie where Necronomicon is from? |
| 22:35.53 | mindjuju | well, the Necronomicon is from HG Wells originally |
| 22:35.59 | Lone_Wanderer | k |
| 22:36.05 | dataw0lf | Name's Ash. <cocks shotgun> Housewares. |
| 22:36.15 | drip | =) |
| 22:36.17 | mindjuju | but everybody loved the idea and has some different version of it |
| 22:36.30 | mindjuju | seems like wiki has a piece on oit |
| 22:37.48 | drip | the alternate ending when he goes too far back to the future makes me laugh. |
| 22:38.04 | mindjuju | i haven't seen the alternate ending |
| 22:38.08 | mindjuju | i just have the VHS of it |
| 22:38.27 | drip | originally it was released w/ different ending in japan or something like that. |
| 22:38.27 | dataw0lf | It's a trick. Get an axe. |
| 22:38.29 | mindjuju | Lone_Wanderer, i was wrong, not HG Wells, it was HP Lovecraft |
| 22:38.44 | drip | he goes too far forward.. into a post-holocaust world. |
| 22:38.51 | drip | everyone/everything is destroyed. |
| 22:38.58 | dataw0lf | Yea, I have the director's cut, I dunno, I like the original ending. |
| 22:39.01 | mindjuju | in my defense, i knew it was a 2 initial last name combo that started with H, i just picked the first that came to mind |
| 22:39.12 | mindjuju | yeah, i like the original with bridget fonda |
| 22:39.20 | mindjuju | at the end |
| 22:39.24 | drip | original is better.. |
| 22:39.31 | drip | but still cracks me up w/ the other ending too |
| 22:39.33 | dataw0lf | yea |
| 22:39.37 | dataw0lf | it's a good movie all around. |
| 22:39.50 | drip | amen. |
| 22:40.09 | dataw0lf | I love how Bruce Campbell has made cameos in both Spiderman movies. |
| 22:40.24 | dataw0lf | Raimi's a good guy. |
| 22:40.42 | mindjuju | i want to get Bruce Campell's book |
| 22:40.49 | dataw0lf | I gots it. |
| 22:40.52 | mindjuju | Make love the Bruce Campell way |
| 22:41.06 | mindjuju | i've heard it's hilarious |
| 22:41.10 | dataw0lf | it's pretty dang funny |
| 22:41.27 | dataw0lf | another 'horror' movie from that era that I like is Tremors. |
| 22:57.05 | Lone_Wanderer | who's Bruce Campell? |
| 22:57.26 | Lone_Wanderer | Is that the "You picked the wrong rec room to break into" movie? |
| 22:59.25 | synic | Tremors++ |
| 23:00.05 | synic | Kevin Bacon is a stud. |
| 23:00.25 | dataw0lf | I hear I look quite a bit like him. |
| 23:01.36 | dataw0lf | actually I don't hear the kevin bacon thing too often anymore. Nowadays it's Jared Leto. |
| 23:01.50 | synic | damn prairie dog burrow. |
| 23:02.15 | dataw0lf | hehe |
| 23:02.25 | synic | heh, xilch|w__'s wife says I look like Kevin Bacon. She's a bit confused. |
| 23:02.35 | synic | everyone else thinks I look like a nerdish version of Beck. |
| 23:02.53 | mindjuju | i've been told i look like Charles Atlas |
| 23:03.02 | com4 | yeah, you're not kevin bacon |
| 23:03.24 | dataw0lf | synic: I can see Beck. |
| 23:03.54 | synic | com4: usted tienen gusto de eso con la salsa caliente? |
| 23:04.05 | com4 | si |
| 23:05.22 | dataw0lf | heh, for some reason that reminded of Chappelle's standup when he talks about the mexican vice president. |
| 23:06.45 | dataw0lf | "See, if I became the first black president, my vice president would be mexican. I mean, go ahead and assassinate me, you're just gonna open up the borders. Ain't that right Chavez?" "Si!" |
| 23:06.59 | Lone_Wanderer | rofl |
| 23:08.06 | Lone_Wanderer | A lot of people say that I look like... umm |
| 23:08.32 | dataw0lf | Somebody broke into my house once, this is a good time to call the police, but mm mm, nope. The house was too nice. It was a real nice house, but they'd never believe i lived in it. They'd be like 'He's still here!' *whack* |
| 23:08.35 | Lone_Wanderer | "a hideous version of that guy in the basement on the Goonies" |
| 23:08.50 | dataw0lf | Oh my god. Open and shut case, Johnson. I saw this once when I was a rookie. Apparently this n***er broke in and put up pictures of his family everywhere.' |
| 23:09.40 | herlo | _psychic_: what I meant about well-formedness is that it's not Turing complete, although that might not be true for XML either. |
| 23:10.31 | dataw0lf | ? Why does that imply he doesn't know what he's talking about? |
| 23:10.45 | Lone_Wanderer | What does well-formedness have to do with being Turing complete? |
| 23:11.02 | herlo | _psychic_: the essential thing about it is that XML provides you a guaranteed way to parse the data, assuming you follow a set of pre-defined rules, you can come out with a complete result every time |
| 23:11.17 | Lone_Wanderer | ohhhh, *complete*, not *equivalent* |
| 23:11.20 | herlo | no errors, unless they're in the XML tree itself |
| 23:11.23 | herlo | Lone_Wanderer: right |
| 23:11.38 | herlo | Lone_Wanderer: make sure you read what I said, not what you thought I meant ;) |
| 23:11.51 | _psychic_ | herlo: you're going to have to remind me what you were originally referencing |
| 23:11.53 | dataw0lf | XSLT is Turing complete, if that's what you mean herlo. XML isn't itself. |
| 23:12.04 | Lone_Wanderer | There are not many people who use complete and equivalent correctly. |
| 23:12.55 | herlo | Lone_Wanderer: fair enough |
| 23:13.56 | dataw0lf | heyo xilch|w |
| 23:14.06 | bigdog_ut | http://venticon.com/gallery |
| 23:14.25 | dataw0lf | venticon is up nowadays? |
| 23:14.42 | bigdog_ut | nowadays? |
| 23:14.46 | bigdog_ut | it has always been up |
| 23:14.50 | dataw0lf | Lies. |
| 23:14.56 | _psychic_ | bigdog_ut: that's Dell stuff right? You like it? |
| 23:14.56 | dataw0lf | nice array. |
| 23:15.10 | _psychic_ | how big is it? |
| 23:18.48 | xilch|w | what's up dataw0lf? |
| 23:18.56 | bigdog_ut | the top one is a 7.5tb and the bottom is a 4.0tb |
| 23:19.08 | _psychic_ | this for your GIS project? |
| 23:19.45 | bigdog_ut | yeah |
| 23:19.54 | _psychic_ | can I have it? |
| 23:20.03 | bigdog_ut | no...i got a good deal on it though |
| 23:20.18 | bigdog_ut | 12k for the dell 2950 and the disk array |
| 23:20.45 | bigdog_ut | the top has 500g sata drives |
| 23:20.56 | _psychic_ | nice |
| 23:20.58 | bigdog_ut | the bottom has 15k scsi drives |
| 23:21.14 | bigdog_ut | we are waiting for 750g sata drives for the next array |
| 23:22.20 | herlo | _psychic_: we were discussing the fact that you hated XML with regard to symfony.... |
| 23:23.21 | _psychic_ | herlo: right, but what does that have to do with Turing Completeness |
| 23:23.46 | bigdog_ut | lol |
| 23:24.36 | dataw0lf | xilch|w: not much |
| 23:24.55 | herlo | (03:04:47 PM) _psychic_: I can't do XML anymore. Its retarded. |
| 23:24.55 | herlo | (03:05:02 PM) herlo: _psychic_: but then you don't have well-formedness |
| 23:24.55 | herlo | (03:05:02 PM) _psychic_: No reason you should have to inform the data layer what the schema looks like. None. |
| 23:24.55 | herlo | (03:05:11 PM) _psychic_: herlo: what do you mean? |
| 23:25.12 | herlo | _psychic_: that's where the conversation previously ended |
| 23:25.47 | herlo | my point was that without XML, how are you going to enforce rules... |
| 23:26.40 | bigdog_ut | rule engine |
| 23:26.53 | herlo | bigdog_ut: right, but how is that implemented? |
| 23:27.23 | bigdog_ut | depends some have their own syntax |
| 23:27.36 | bigdog_ut | like jess uses their own format...but i hear you on xml portability for db abstract layer |
| 23:27.47 | herlo | XML, is a simple (yes, I know this term will be questioned), human readable way to manage loads of data...and a computer can easily manage this data... |
| 23:27.57 | bigdog_ut | hibernate uses xml and annotations...too bad php does not support annotations |
| 23:28.02 | herlo | _psychic_: and that's why I am arguing for it |
| 23:28.28 | dataw0lf | the problem with XML is 1) verbosity and 2) yet it's too simplistic to really handle it when people actually need it, leading to various crap technologies to work around it's deficiencies |
| 23:28.37 | herlo | bigdog_ut: yeah, that'd be nice |
| 23:28.56 | herlo | dataw0lf: so you are saying that jabber sucks because it uses XML? |
| 23:29.10 | macnewbold | no, you suck |
| 23:29.14 | macnewbold | hehe, j/k |
| 23:29.15 | bigdog_ut | xml sucks when people dont know how to use its power |
| 23:29.24 | dataw0lf | herlo: No, I'm not saying anything of the kind. I just am noting your evangelization of XML and raising it with some facts |
| 23:29.27 | bigdog_ut | like moving away from dtds and use schema |
| 23:29.30 | dataw0lf | what power? |
| 23:29.44 | herlo | macnewbold: I am hurt! |
| 23:29.45 | dataw0lf | designing XML data structures is way harder than it should be. |
| 23:29.57 | dataw0lf | where's the difference between content and attributes? |
| 23:30.19 | dataw0lf | and attributes are never structured, is what you're telling me? |
| 23:30.24 | bigdog_ut | imho attributes suck |
| 23:30.26 | herlo | dataw0lf: evangelizing aside, XML is not the end all be all of structures |
| 23:30.44 | dataw0lf | we can do way better than XML, so attempting to standardize to it is a problem. |
| 23:30.50 | dataw0lf | XML applies well to some situations. |
| 23:30.51 | dataw0lf | that's all. |
| 23:30.55 | herlo | and it definitely has flaws, but it's kinda like our legal system, it's what we've got |
| 23:31.31 | herlo | so we should use it until it can either be replaced, or improved |
| 23:31.32 | dataw0lf | a legal system, you're absolutely forced to use. You don't have any choices in the matter. |
| 23:31.37 | dataw0lf | XML you do have choices. |
| 23:31.42 | macnewbold | ~rlart |
| 23:32.05 | herlo | dataw0lf: I disagree on the legal system argument as well, we're not forced to use anything. We have choices in all things, consequences notwithstanding |
| 23:32.23 | dataw0lf | I cannot say "you know, I'm going to use the JSON legal system. Not the XML one" |
| 23:32.28 | herlo | dataw0lf: XML is a choice, so is living in the US of A |
| 23:32.36 | dataw0lf | Now, we can change the legal system from within. |
| 23:32.47 | herlo | dataw0lf: that'd be nice |
| 23:32.50 | dataw0lf | the only real benefits to XML are commercial and political ones. |
| 23:32.56 | herlo | but I'd rather change it from without |
| 23:33.05 | dataw0lf | there's nothing technologically beneficial to using XML in most cases. |
| 23:33.26 | herlo | dataw0lf: I disagree, XML provides quite a bit of commonality that many poeple use, bloat or no bloat, XML has good qualities |
| 23:33.50 | bigdog_ut | +1 |
| 23:33.52 | dataw0lf | the commonality is a political and commercial advantage. It isn't technological. |
| 23:34.12 | herlo | I disagree, but I think we're never going to agree... |
| 23:34.17 | Lone_Wanderer | For most XML stuff I do, a simple csv field would work just as well |
| 23:34.33 | bigdog_ut | property files are good too |
| 23:34.39 | herlo | dataw0lf: I believe we can talk in circles about the benefits and it won't get us anywhere |
| 23:34.52 | dataw0lf | herlo: I guess so. |
| 23:35.09 | herlo | csv doesn't provide a easy way to verify that it meets the rules, XML does |
| 23:35.26 | Lone_Wanderer | No, it doesn't |
| 23:35.32 | jsmith | herlo: Well, for various definitions of "easy" and "rules" |
| 23:35.33 | herlo | properties files seem a bit too Java for me |
| 23:35.38 | herlo | jsmith: agreed |
| 23:35.54 | Lone_Wanderer | but in most cases where I'm using XML now, strict data validation isn't necessary |
| 23:35.58 | Lone_Wanderer | loose validation is fine |
| 23:36.01 | jsmith | XML doesn't have to be structured, but if it is, you can enforce certain rules, if you want to, and know how. |
| 23:36.11 | herlo | jsmith: exactly my point |
| 23:36.32 | jsmith | But you could just as easily enforce those rules in your app, at the application level |
| 23:36.37 | dataw0lf | herlo: I believe the XML specifications are just a bit too vague in too many areas. |
| 23:36.44 | jsmith | if the data were in another format, say CSV |
| 23:37.19 | jsmith | I mean, just look at the XML files that Microsoft Office puts out -- it's XML all right, but it ain't pretty |
| 23:37.22 | herlo | dataw0lf: depends on what you want... |
| 23:37.38 | herlo | jsmith: Microsoft sucks |
| 23:37.42 | herlo | ;) |
| 23:37.55 | herlo | sorry, tension breaker, had to be done |
| 23:37.57 | dataw0lf | well so do numerous XML schema designers too numerous to count. |
| 23:38.31 | herlo | dataw0lf: I think this is like the discussion I've heard one too many perl developers have about php in general |
| 23:38.54 | herlo | the argument usually goes something like this: php sucks because there are bad programmers in the world |
| 23:38.58 | dataw0lf | herlo: PHP isn't a markup language or 'standard' way to define data |
| 23:39.15 | herlo | no, but the fact that we're saying design is bad is similar |
| 23:39.42 | herlo | we are saying, XML doesn't work because some people can't design. |
| 23:39.55 | dataw0lf | Not really. Because of the loose XML specifications, and vague directions, involving difference between attributes and content, etc, it hurts us a whole when we use XML |
| 23:39.57 | herlo | There are only a few people in this world with perfect talent, and I am sure not one of them |
| 23:40.13 | Lone_Wanderer | It's cool, I am. |
| 23:40.23 | herlo | ~lart Lone_Wanderer |
| 23:41.05 | herlo | dataw0lf: ahh, the rounds we'll go |
| 23:41.50 | dataw0lf | herlo: at least you're fairly intelligent. |
| 23:42.02 | dataw0lf | so I don't get as frustrated arguing with you. |
| 23:42.28 | Lone_Wanderer | What would YOU do if you were the W3C??? |
| 23:42.45 | dataw0lf | hold my head underwater and weep |
| 23:42.47 | herlo | dataw0lf: that's why I like having convs with you, because the conv is smart |
| 23:42.56 | dataw0lf | danke. I appreciate that. |
| 23:43.14 | herlo | dataw0lf: anytime, I appreciate it as well, that's why I keep coming back |
| 23:43.42 | dataw0lf | word. I can sometimes get aggravating, so I just expect people to let me know and slap me with a newspaper. |
| 23:43.43 | Lone_Wanderer | I think it's time to start actually populating the database. |
| 23:43.55 | Lone_Wanderer | What'd I do? |
| 23:44.09 | herlo | dataw0lf: Thing is, I don't mind arguing. If I get frustrated, I'll tell you... |
| 23:44.43 | Lone_Wanderer | later |
| 23:44.49 | dataw0lf | herlo: cool. cya. |
| 23:44.56 | dataw0lf | http://xmlsucks.org/but_you_have_to_use_it_anyway/useful-xml.html |
| 23:45.05 | dataw0lf | :D |
| 23:45.10 | herlo | nice |
| 23:45.42 | dataw0lf | knew I'd seen it somewhere, it has alot of good points in there that I share. |
| 23:48.36 | dataw0lf | http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/TV/12/04/television.lilbush.reut/index.html interesting not because of the politics, but the fact that YouTube popularity has sparked a series |