| 00:27.03 | *** part/#uphpu brasto (n=brasto@71-32-236-165.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 00:32.44 | mindjuju | Everybody relax, i'm back |
| 00:55.08 | *** join/#uphpu beandog (n=sdibb@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 00:55.08 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v beandog] by ChanServ |
| 01:05.16 | *** join/#uphpu herlo (n=clints@63.81.22.253) |
| 01:05.16 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v herlo] by ChanServ |
| 01:30.44 | *** join/#uphpu herlo (n=clints@63.81.22.253) |
| 01:30.44 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v herlo] by ChanServ |
| 01:36.15 | *** join/#uphpu Lenolium (n=Rawb@rawb.fttp.xmission.com) |
| 02:00.13 | *** join/#uphpu herlo (n=clints@208.34.118.101) |
| 02:00.13 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v herlo] by ChanServ |
| 03:24.22 | *** join/#uphpu Utah_Dave (n=boucha@c-67-172-244-155.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 03:24.22 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o Utah_Dave] by ChanServ |
| 03:30.13 | *** join/#uphpu _psychic_ (n=_psychic@c-67-186-222-175.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 03:30.13 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v _psychic_] by ChanServ |
| 04:32.27 | *** part/#uphpu Utah_Dave (n=boucha@c-67-172-244-155.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 08:08.13 | *** join/#uphpu jbot (i=ibot@pdpc/supporter/active/TimRiker/bot/apt) |
| 08:08.13 | *** topic/#uphpu is Geek Lunch Friday Nov 3rd Thai Village in Am Fork @12:30p |
| 08:08.13 | *** mode/#uphpu [+v jbot] by ChanServ |
| 12:04.28 | *** join/#uphpu jbot (i=ibot@pdpc/supporter/active/TimRiker/bot/apt) |
| 12:04.28 | *** topic/#uphpu is Geek Lunch Friday Nov 3rd Thai Village in Am Fork @12:30p |
| 12:04.28 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v jbot] by ChanServ |
| 13:53.59 | *** join/#uphpu jsmith_ (n=jsmith@000-138-125.area3.spcsdns.net) |
| 13:54.50 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v jsmith] by ChanServ |
| 14:00.58 | *** join/#uphpu Utah_Dave (n=boucha@72-166-51-162.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 14:00.58 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o Utah_Dave] by ChanServ |
| 14:50.24 | *** join/#uphpu jsmith_ (n=jsmith@000-138-125.area3.spcsdns.net) |
| 14:58.59 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v jsmith] by ChanServ |
| 15:11.26 | *** join/#uphpu wps (n=wps@64.72.210.10) |
| 15:11.27 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o wps] by ChanServ |
| 15:14.21 | *** join/#uphpu _psychic_ (n=_psychic@71.32.228.156) |
| 15:14.21 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v _psychic_] by ChanServ |
| 15:31.37 | *** join/#uphpu timinator (n=timinato@c-67-171-118-199.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 15:31.37 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v timinator] by ChanServ |
| 15:36.14 | *** join/#uphpu timinator (n=timinato@c-67-171-118-199.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 15:36.14 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v timinator] by ChanServ |
| 15:39.19 | *** join/#uphpu timinator (n=timinato@c-67-171-118-199.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 15:39.19 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v timinator] by ChanServ |
| 16:20.26 | *** join/#uphpu jakea (n=jakea@128.187.176.43) |
| 16:21.04 | *** join/#uphpu fungus_ (n=fungus@firebat.aros.net) |
| 16:25.15 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o fungus] by ChanServ |
| 16:33.08 | *** join/#uphpu herlo (n=clints@63.81.22.253) |
| 16:33.09 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v herlo] by ChanServ |
| 16:43.16 | timinator | hey guys |
| 16:43.35 | timinator | I would like to POST an order form from one of my sites to another |
| 16:43.47 | timinator | both are on SSL certs |
| 16:44.02 | timinator | will that look stupid in any way to the user? |
| 16:50.22 | Lenolium | timinator: No, that should work just fine. It will take a second though, to start up a new SSL connection. |
| 16:58.20 | mindjuju | everybody relax -- i'm here |
| 16:58.22 | *** join/#uphpu timinator_ (n=timinato@c-67-171-118-199.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 17:03.34 | timinator_ | hello? |
| 17:04.17 | mindjuju | tune in timinator_ , tune in timinator_ |
| 17:04.23 | mindjuju | your coming in all garbled |
| 17:04.37 | timinator_ | are you getting me? |
| 17:04.40 | mindjuju | yup |
| 17:04.45 | timinator_ | testing 1 2 3 |
| 17:07.53 | *** join/#uphpu MrRitter (n=Ritter@158.91.201.29) |
| 17:08.25 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v timinator] by ChanServ |
| 17:26.43 | *** part/#uphpu MrRitter (n=Ritter@158.91.201.29) |
| 17:29.50 | *** join/#uphpu MrRitter (n=Ritter@158.91.201.29) |
| 17:45.56 | MrRitter | slow day? or is it never really that busy here? |
| 17:46.09 | wps | slow |
| 17:46.17 | mindjuju | must be sugar overdose from halloween yesterday |
| 17:46.45 | wps | jbot, welcome MrRitter |
| 17:46.47 | jbot | Howdy, MrRitter! |
| 17:47.01 | wps | ~MrRitter |
| 17:47.26 | MrRitter | thx.. |
| 17:49.03 | wps | ~MrRitter |
| 17:49.05 | jbot | somebody said mrritter was "gaim" |
| 17:49.13 | mindjuju | curious |
| 17:49.34 | MrRitter | it works .. not my irc client of choice, but I try not to irc all that much anyway |
| 17:50.32 | mindjuju | oh hey, MrRitter, do you work near American Fork? |
| 17:50.35 | wps | jbot, dance |
| 17:50.36 | jbot | somebody said dance was ah, ah, ah, ah, stayin' elive, stayin' elive.. |
| 17:50.56 | mindjuju | cause we got that geek lunch going this Friday, a bunch of us will be there |
| 17:53.26 | *** join/#uphpu MrRitter (n=Ritter@158.91.201.29) |
| 17:53.45 | MrRitter | ~MrRitter |
| 17:53.46 | jbot | from memory, mrritter is "gaim", or someone who tries not to IRC too much |
| 17:53.59 | MrRitter | lol |
| 17:54.04 | MrRitter | interesting |
| 17:54.51 | MrRitter | jbot forget MrRitter |
| 17:57.28 | macnewbold | so how is everyone today? |
| 17:57.43 | wps | excellent |
| 17:58.38 | mindjuju | hatting IE 6 |
| 17:59.31 | mindjuju | it's impossible trying to program for IE 7 which is similar to FF 1.5, IE 6 which just sux and doesn't work, FF 2 |
| 18:00.06 | mindjuju | according to analytics, we had 2 mac visists, in the last month, so i don't need to code for them specifically |
| 18:00.28 | wps | if it works in FF, it'll work in Safari |
| 18:00.39 | wps | that's the beauty of standards |
| 18:01.33 | mindjuju | it's funny that MS has so much money to devote to getting there crap done right, and they are the ones that sux the worst on wc3 compliance |
| 18:10.38 | tierra | not that they sell IE, but yeah |
| 18:13.10 | _psychic_ | wps: not for JS :) |
| 18:15.14 | _psychic_ | ecma hasn't really caught on :/ |
| 18:15.25 | wps | no kidding |
| 18:15.55 | _psychic_ | you'd think it would be more important nowadays. JS is bigger now than ever with all the ajax and effects goings on. |
| 18:26.00 | drip | but that would make sense. |
| 18:26.13 | drip | why do that when they can make things more difficult? |
| 18:27.22 | _psychic_ | exactly |
| 18:28.05 | mindjuju | i can't believe what just happened. Some jerk in one of the support departments was going around desk to desk testing out this webpage on the computer of other technicians to see if it was broken on their computer. Sure enough, they were all having problems. So they escalate it and drag me out of my dark office into the brightly light support part. |
| 18:28.21 | mindjuju | just to find out, yup, the URL was wrong, he wrote it down wrong |
| 18:29.11 | tierra | haha |
| 18:29.35 | _psychic_ | d'oh |
| 18:29.57 | mindjuju | yeah, was going to give the guy a ninja kick to the jimmies but decided against it |
| 18:31.37 | mindjuju | tough call, the Warrior Slam or the belched breath of a 1000 burrittos |
| 18:37.24 | mindjuju | i think Warrior's Slam by escalating it to the supervisor's boss for filing a faulty report and marking that clients were affected when they clearly weren't. |
| 19:00.02 | *** join/#uphpu fungus_ (n=fungus@fungus.air.aros.net) |
| 19:01.10 | *** join/#uphpu fungus (n=fungus@firebat.aros.net) |
| 19:01.10 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o fungus] by ChanServ |
| 19:14.35 | *** join/#uphpu herlo (n=clints@63.81.22.253) |
| 19:14.35 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v herlo] by ChanServ |
| 19:46.20 | mindjuju | that WoW funeral Raid has got to be one of the funniest videos on the internet |
| 19:47.29 | _psychic_ | the leroy one is pretty funny too |
| 19:48.05 | bigdog_ut | they are both great |
| 19:48.22 | bigdog_ut | i wish i was part to the raid |
| 19:48.49 | mindjuju | i don't think i've seen the leroy one, i just finished rewatching the serentity now raid |
| 19:49.00 | mindjuju | ya'll have a link to leroy? |
| 19:49.24 | bigdog_ut | google videos will hav eit |
| 19:57.32 | drip | yeah those are both great. |
| 19:57.53 | drip | as is the south park wow episode. |
| 20:02.47 | _psychic_ | wps: can you reference images in CSS, with the paths being relative to the CSS file? |
| 20:03.12 | wps | yes |
| 20:04.25 | _psychic_ | url('../ doesn't seem to work |
| 20:04.45 | wps | well, you can't back up |
| 20:05.01 | wps | just like you can't do this |
| 20:05.13 | wps | http://example.com/../somedir/file.png |
| 20:05.18 | _psychic_ | right... |
| 20:25.21 | jsmith | Oh c'mon, we all know there's probably some creative way of encoding the .. as unicode or something like that ;-) |
| 20:33.58 | _psychic_ | jsmith: … ;) |
| 20:35.57 | macnewbold | you can usually back up, |
| 20:36.01 | macnewbold | but not past the top dir |
| 20:36.28 | macnewbold | for example, http://example.com/foo/bar/../baz.png should be the same as http://example.com/foo/baz.png |
| 20:37.01 | macnewbold | but if http://example.com/../ gives you something other than example.com or a 404, it's probably a security hole |
| 20:37.06 | macnewbold | which means you're on IIS |
| 20:38.16 | *** join/#uphpu brasto (n=brasto@71-32-236-165.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 20:38.17 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v brasto] by ChanServ |
| 20:44.07 | wps | I get the hacker award for the afternoon |
| 20:44.46 | wps | the hospital that my baby was born in took her photo and then put up in an online service where they want to sell you a portrait package |
| 20:46.07 | wps | they only give you a small, screen-optimized version as a preview and have disabled right-clicking in an attempt to prevent you from having a copy without buying their wares |
| 20:46.31 | wps | well, I played around with the URL of the script that the programmer uses to feed out different sizes of the photo and was able to get a large/high quality enough one to print out an 8.5 x 11 |
| 20:46.32 | wps | ha ha ha |
| 20:49.27 | timinator | props to wps |
| 20:49.31 | Utah_Dave | woot! |
| 20:50.07 | macnewbold | nice |
| 20:50.10 | macnewbold | very nice |
| 20:50.22 | macnewbold | now you just violated the DMCA, you realize? |
| 20:50.52 | wps | yup |
| 20:50.53 | wps | :) |
| 20:50.55 | macnewbold | hehe |
| 20:50.57 | drip | lol |
| 20:51.05 | macnewbold | probably not the DMCA, but copyright violation at least |
| 20:51.33 | wps | bad programmer to allow a direct call like that… and to serve up any size |
| 20:51.36 | macnewbold | I'm always a bit miffed that if you go and pay a photographer to take your picture, he still gets to own the copyright |
| 20:51.39 | macnewbold | yeah, totally |
| 20:52.42 | timinator | no doubt mac |
| 20:52.44 | timinator | I agree |
| 20:52.47 | Utah_Dave | Photography copyright rules are crap |
| 20:53.29 | macnewbold | yeah, next time maybe I'll try taking in a work-for-hire agreement that assigns me the copyright, and having them sign that before they take my picture |
| 20:54.01 | timinator | general release forms are nice things |
| 20:54.25 | Utah_Dave | The photographer deserves to get paid to take and deliver a good photo. That's it. |
| 20:54.33 | macnewbold | when it is an art photograph, that they're composing and taking on their own, that's one thing. That's your picture. But when I come to you to pay you for your time and skill as a photographer, and the use of your facilities, I want to own the result. |
| 20:54.56 | timinator | here here |
| 20:56.54 | wps | you can have that |
| 20:57.05 | wps | it just costs more then the package you usually purchase |
| 20:57.25 | wps | I bought that from the photographer that shot my wedding |
| 20:57.44 | wps | a little extra to also buy the copyright |
| 20:57.52 | wps | including the digital negatives |
| 20:58.52 | jsmith | Nice |
| 20:59.13 | jsmith | The worst was company that I paid extra to get the copyright, but then they wouldn't let me take the negatives |
| 21:00.37 | wps | photographers (I being one) are happy to sell that to you, but you it has to cost more so that they are adequately compensated |
| 21:01.02 | wps | shoot price + prints = adequate compensation |
| 21:01.12 | wps | shoot + buy copyright/negatives = adequate compensation |
| 21:01.23 | wps | most of the world is used to option one |
| 21:01.53 | wps | photographers prefer option one as they then have returning customers |
| 21:02.16 | wps | it's providing a service business model instead of providing a product |
| 21:03.38 | jsmith | Yup... I totally agree, but if you buy the copyright, you should get the negatives too |
| 21:03.47 | wps | absolutely |
| 21:03.48 | _psychic_ | does that justify breaking the law, though? ;) |
| 21:04.18 | wps | absolutely not |
| 21:05.46 | _psychic_ | I have an aunt who is a photographer, and she needs that copyright to secure any sort of income off pictures at all. If she expects to make money off work, part of that is a per-picture income. Without some sort of copyright, anyone can take the examples provided in good faith and rob her of any income at all. |
| 21:06.05 | wps | yup |
| 21:06.41 | timinator | that's why there's fewer and fewer mom and pop operations |
| 21:06.48 | mindjuju | not to change the subject, but while snarfing up some sandwiches, i found this cool video of this guy flipping quarters into cups |
| 21:06.48 | mindjuju | http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6176702600168718216&q=genre%3Acomedy |
| 21:08.22 | macnewbold | _psychic_: yes, like wade said, she's got two options: charge for the shoot and make them buy prints from you to make up the rest of the compensation, or charge for the shoot and the copyright/negatives so that you can buy prints elsewhere, or have them for yourself |
| 21:09.05 | macnewbold | in fact, she'd have more consistent and reliable income that way, because she's not guessing how many pictures they'll buy, or relying on them not to violate the copyright |
| 21:10.26 | _psychic_ | how many people want to buy the rights or get locked into where to buy the prints, though? |
| 21:11.49 | macnewbold | _psychic_: I'd rather buy the rights than get locked in. I'll save a lot of money that way I think. |
| 21:12.28 | macnewbold | say they do my shoot for $x, and I buy a $100 picture package, of which they keep $50, and the rest goes to their costs to print it etc. |
| 21:13.12 | macnewbold | I'd rather just pay them $x+50 up front, then be able to get prints somewhere else (costco for example) costing me $10-20 that were basically the same as their $100 package |
| 21:13.20 | _psychic_ | well maybe you would, but I don't think my wife or grandma cares :) |
| 21:13.31 | macnewbold | or pay the same amount, and get a lot more pictures for it |
| 21:13.50 | macnewbold | _psychic_: when they start to care is when it comes down to their choice between a $100 package and a $200 package |
| 21:14.05 | macnewbold | they really want all the prints from the $200, but the price is crazy high |
| 21:14.08 | _psychic_ | that's true, I suppose |
| 21:14.22 | macnewbold | if they bought the rights instead, at a reasonable and predictable fee, |
| 21:14.33 | macnewbold | they could print as many as they want, now and later, |
| 21:14.37 | macnewbold | as they saw fit |
| 21:14.46 | macnewbold | and from whoever they like, at whatever price they can find |
| 21:15.00 | macnewbold | and they can have a high quality digital archive of it, without potentially violating copyright |
| 21:15.25 | macnewbold | BTW, if anyone is down in Utah Valley : I hear the CEO of Omniture is speaking at BYU tonight, if anyone is interested |
| 21:16.03 | wps | (shoot) + (rights) + (printing on own) |
| 21:16.06 | wps | …is going to be more than… |
| 21:16.19 | wps | (shoot) + (purchase package from photographer) |
| 21:16.21 | wps | …though |
| 21:17.40 | *** join/#uphpu timinator_ (n=timinato@c-67-171-118-199.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:18.05 | wps | the difference is commissioning a work and hiring someone |
| 21:18.17 | wps | Mac just needs to hire a photographer (employee) |
| 21:18.37 | mindjuju | or buy a camera and take your own shots |
| 21:18.41 | mindjuju | which is what i do |
| 21:18.55 | timinator_ | Canon D series |
| 21:19.14 | mindjuju | which of course, wps has |
| 21:20.54 | timinator_ | on computer speakers.... what's the best in the $100 price range? JBL Creature 2? |
| 21:22.04 | Lenolium | timinator_: I know this is not the question you asked, but for $100, you could get a much better audio quality out of some headphones than a speaker set. |
| 21:22.40 | mindjuju | lenolium has a point |
| 21:22.51 | timinator_ | huh |
| 21:22.52 | wps | I have these on my desk and really like them |
| 21:22.52 | wps | http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Creative-Labs-I-Trigue-2-1-Speaker-System-3300/sem/rpsm/oid/70448/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do |
| 21:23.30 | mindjuju | that's what i do, excellent headphone for business hours, a cheap ole timey radio with a great amp for after hours that can kick the bass something fierce for after hours work |
| 21:24.25 | timinator_ | but headphones? for all those hours? |
| 21:24.30 | timinator_ | you don't get a headache? |
| 21:24.37 | Lenolium | timinator_: Get a good pair, then it's fine. |
| 21:25.10 | mindjuju | i don't get headache |
| 21:25.11 | Lenolium | I'm a fan of Beyerdynamic, and think they do really well even to the really low ranges, but a lot of people like the Seinheizers. |
| 21:25.25 | mindjuju | seinheizers rox! |
| 21:27.16 | Lenolium | timinator_: If you are in the salt lake valley, bring some of your CD's down to Performance Audio (not performance sound, the car audio place), and they will typically let you do some head-to-head tests on a few pairs of really nice headphones. |
| 21:28.01 | mindjuju | it's funny you mention Performance Audio, we buy all video / audio from there |
| 21:28.12 | timinator_ | nice |
| 21:28.18 | Lenolium | I have the DT770's, and the only problem is that little portable devices can't drive it hard enough sometimes. |
| 21:29.23 | Lenolium | mindjuju: They are a nice shop, I had a friend that worked there for a long while. Got to use some of their demo equipment at some parties back in the day. |
| 21:29.59 | mindjuju | we bought a mackey from there, pro vid camera, some mics , etc |
| 21:30.02 | Lenolium | Of course, it's turned me in to a tiny bit of an audio snob, and to this day, I still wish more things had balanced outputs. :) |
| 21:30.08 | macnewbold | wps: the difference in the photo prices could go either way, it depends how much they want for the rights |
| 21:30.33 | macnewbold | if they'll sell you the rights for what they'd make from selling you the package, then I'd argue that you can find places to get the prints cheaper, |
| 21:30.46 | macnewbold | or buy enough prints (maybe a few more than you'd pay for from them) to make the scales tip |
| 21:30.47 | wps | the rights should be more then that |
| 21:30.58 | wps | that's what most people don't understand |
| 21:31.01 | macnewbold | well, if that's all they can collect on the rights if they keep them, |
| 21:31.01 | wps | it's not apples to apples |
| 21:31.06 | macnewbold | then isn't that their market value? |
| 21:31.11 | wps | no |
| 21:31.14 | wps | rights are much more than that |
| 21:31.21 | wps | ownership |
| 21:31.35 | macnewbold | they can have the rights to my photos, but if they'll only ever see $20 from it, cause I'm cheap and don't buy the pictures, |
| 21:31.45 | macnewbold | how are the rights worth significantly more than that? |
| 21:32.00 | macnewbold | how is it going to be more valuable than what they can collect from it? |
| 21:32.08 | wps | because you're only looking at it from a commerce perspective |
| 21:32.22 | macnewbold | photos of me mean nothing to them, except as a portfolio item, but since I'm ugly, despite how good the pictures are, they won't want to show them off |
| 21:32.30 | macnewbold | I'm looking at it from a _value_ perspective |
| 21:32.45 | macnewbold | they're in it to make money, so the primary value of the pictures is their potential to make money |
| 21:32.47 | macnewbold | right? |
| 21:32.48 | wps | there is more value to your artwork then just how much you sell them for and then being portfolio items |
| 21:32.57 | macnewbold | like what? |
| 21:33.23 | wps | and the other BIG issue is how much will they be worth in the future… it is unknown… if you sell the rights today, the artist could get screwed in the future |
| 21:33.27 | macnewbold | (I'm not intending to inflame people or anything, just interested in debating it, and perhaps increasing my understanding) |
| 21:33.28 | Lenolium | macnewbold: I think he is trying to explain to you that photographers prefer to keep your pictures hostage unless you pay a lot of money. |
| 21:33.42 | macnewbold | on the bet that they'll be worth more in the future |
| 21:34.00 | Lenolium | macnewbold: It's no skin off of their backs if you don't have the rights to the pictures. |
| 21:34.01 | macnewbold | the chances that pictures of me will be worth more to the photographer in the future is very small |
| 21:34.18 | wps | it's the principle |
| 21:34.20 | wps | the value of art |
| 21:34.33 | macnewbold | Lenolium: of course it isn't, I'm not saying I should get them without paying for them, nor get the rights without compensation |
| 21:35.00 | macnewbold | wps: well, maybe that's my disagreement then. If I pay someone to snap a picture of me, I'm not doing it for art. |
| 21:35.08 | macnewbold | so to me, it has no artistic value |
| 21:35.12 | wps | right, but the artist is |
| 21:35.13 | macnewbold | if I wanted art, I'd commission a painting |
| 21:35.29 | wps | so, if you find a photographer that will do it the way you want, you'll get what you want |
| 21:35.29 | macnewbold | I'm not talking aobut going to an "artist" I'm talking about going to a photographer. |
| 21:35.32 | Lenolium | macnewbold: That is why it is expensive to obtain the rights. They have them, it costs them nothing to keep them, and potentially, they will make money selling prints to you at a later date. |
| 21:35.57 | macnewbold | Lenolium: but if they own the rights and want lots of money, I won't pay more. not now, nor later. I'll just go to someone else. |
| 21:36.12 | wps | and if you can find someone else, then more power to you |
| 21:36.24 | wps | there are artist that do not value it as much and will do it that way for you |
| 21:36.28 | wps | and example is logoworks |
| 21:36.30 | macnewbold | they're betting that I'll spend $x amount on portraits, a portion of whihc they'll keep as profit, but if I don't spend that much, |
| 21:36.45 | macnewbold | but am willing to pay $y amount for the rights, they can tkae a known amount now, or gamble that I'll pay more later |
| 21:38.09 | macnewbold | with me, that's a bad bet |
| 21:38.41 | macnewbold | It's very similar to graphic design - some want to keep rights, and just license things to you, |
| 21:39.10 | macnewbold | others will do it as a service / work for hire type job, and let you take the rights to the results of the work you paid them to do |
| 21:39.45 | macnewbold | and depending what the customer wants/needs, and what they're willing to pay for it (now and later), we're free to shop around |
| 21:40.17 | wps | yes, but I can guarantee you that there is a difference in quality |
| 21:40.32 | *** join/#uphpu fungus (n=fungus@firebat.aros.net) |
| 21:40.32 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o fungus] by ChanServ |
| 21:40.34 | wps | you can even purchase your own camera and take your photographs yourself, but they aren't going to be as good as a professional |
| 21:40.52 | wps | you can purchase a logo from logoworks that is clip art designed by a high school student |
| 21:40.55 | wps | and you will own it |
| 21:41.05 | wps | but… you get what you pay for |
| 21:41.22 | wps | or, you can have Paul Rand design a logo for you and it will cost a million dollars and he will retain the copyright |
| 21:42.13 | wps | the artist that sells his is getting screwed… he doesn't get adequately compensated financially or with potentially future fame/credit/history… without copyright the artists work can be bastardized, abused, and or changed |
| 21:43.11 | *** join/#uphpu beandog (n=sdibb@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 21:43.11 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+v beandog] by ChanServ |
| 21:44.18 | wps | the value of art is much more then the value of the materials used in it's creation or costs for reproduction |
| 21:44.52 | wps | but, as is exemplified here—and at any art auction—that is purely subjective :) |
| 21:45.08 | wps | the value of art is obviously much higher to me then to Mac :) |
| 21:45.44 | wps | I have a graphic designer friend that "works for hire" for almost every client |
| 21:46.21 | wps | my industry believes he is selling his sole to the devil and weakening our profession |
| 21:47.21 | wps | I think it's sad because sure, he makes a little money today, but if some company he designed a logo for makes it huge… he deserves to be compensated proportionately for that… assuming that a portion of their success was due to the effectiveness of his work |
| 21:47.53 | beandog | which industry? |
| 21:48.05 | beandog | graphic design |
| 21:48.06 | beandog | ? |
| 21:48.48 | wps | any artistic industry applies, but this particular individual is a graphic designer |
| 21:49.04 | macnewbold | wps: the blanket statement that "the artist that sells his [copyright] is getting screwed" is just plain B.S. with a capital B. there's a time and a place ot keep it, and a time and place (and price) to sell it |
| 21:49.14 | jsmith | All I can say is that graphic designers are worth every penny... they can make a turd look like it's made out of gold |
| 21:49.48 | synic | and a good marketer could sell it to the masses. |
| 21:50.03 | synic | :) |
| 21:50.08 | macnewbold | and "your industry" doesn't all feel the same way that you do. I've worked with many great designers (many of whom are much more experienced than you, and arguably more skilled) who are perfectly happy to sell the rights under the right terms |
| 21:50.37 | wps | that's true |
| 21:50.42 | wps | I didn't say that everyone felt that way |
| 21:50.51 | wps | I said that the majority of my industry does |
| 21:51.00 | macnewbold | for example, a company that signs an agreement to have a logo designed, in which the artist retains the copyright, and licenses it to them, without specifying the terms and prices under which the license can be renewed, is just asking to get screwed |
| 21:51.21 | macnewbold | you didn't say majority earlier, you just said "my industry believes he is selling his sole to the devil and weakening our profession" |
| 21:51.23 | wps | I completely agree |
| 21:51.29 | macnewbold | s/sole/soul/ |
| 21:51.43 | wps | yes, that is what I said and I stand behind it |
| 21:51.50 | macnewbold | if you completely agree, then how come you ask people to make such agreements with you? |
| 21:52.11 | wps | I don't |
| 21:52.17 | macnewbold | have you changed your policies then? |
| 21:52.42 | macnewbold | I remember a certain proposal you gave on a project that had terms not unlike those I described |
| 21:53.09 | wps | I never ask (or have in the past) a company to "[signs] an agreement to have a logo designed, in which the artist retains the copyright, and licenses it to them, without specifying the terms and prices under which the license can be renewed" |
| 21:53.37 | macnewbold | to paraphrase, "yes, I'll make you a logo. I'll retain the copyright to it, and license it to you for a period of 10 years as part of the cost of making it". Yet it said nothing about guaranteeing that at the end of that 10 years, we could relicense it, nor what relicensing it would cost. |
| 21:53.39 | *** join/#uphpu fungus_ (n=fungus@firebat.aros.net) |
| 21:54.09 | wps | huh? |
| 21:54.14 | macnewbold | needless to say, we didn't sign that agreement and sought out another deal |
| 21:54.54 | wps | are you paraphrasing from earlier in here or from our discussion about your project a year ago? |
| 21:56.04 | macnewbold | from a proposal you gave us on a project I was involved with about a year ago |
| 21:56.14 | wps | alright |
| 21:56.28 | beandog | I dont see the problem with doing a work for hire |
| 21:56.40 | macnewbold | I never saw anything in the agreement you provided that would guarantee us an ability to relicense, nor specified a price structure for such relicensing |
| 21:56.45 | wps | if it did not include provisions for future licensing then that was simply because discusses ended before those details were worked out |
| 21:57.02 | wps | s/discusses/discussions/ |
| 21:57.04 | macnewbold | they ended because there were no such provisions, and we wanted to buy the rights to it |
| 21:57.18 | wps | right, and I do not sell my copyright |
| 21:57.28 | wps | which is perfectly fine |
| 21:57.30 | macnewbold | anyway, we shopped around and found someone good who would sell us the rights, and at a lower price too |
| 21:57.37 | macnewbold | that's fine for you, but you do lose clients over it |
| 21:57.41 | macnewbold | wihch is your choice and right |
| 21:57.52 | wps | what's wrong with that? |
| 21:58.05 | macnewbold | many of the others I talked to wouldn't even offer us a proposal on a logo without including the cost of selling the rights to it |
| 21:58.32 | macnewbold | leaving someone else in control of your company identity is a big risk, |
| 21:58.41 | wps | agreed |
| 21:59.01 | macnewbold | especially if you're hoping the value of your company increases dramatically |
| 21:59.01 | macnewbold | which is why we insisted on owning the rights |
| 21:59.24 | wps | I would be happy to give an artist a a few hundred thousand dollars a few years later if he turned my company into a Google |
| 21:59.43 | wps | I'd fly him to france and put him up on the beach for a week |
| 21:59.46 | macnewbold | say Apple had licensed their logo/brand/identity instead of owning the rights: how much do you think they'd be paying to renew that license now? as much as the designer could get without making them go broke or rebrand. |
| 22:00.06 | macnewbold | a) artists alone don't turn companies into Googles |
| 22:00.15 | wps | no one suggested they did |
| 22:00.17 | macnewbold | b) I'd be happy to give him a bonus too, but I want to choose how much |
| 22:00.34 | beandog | wps: well you did say that a logo can be a part in making them successful |
| 22:00.36 | wps | you'd be an idiot to agree to a contract where you weren't part of that decision |
| 22:00.38 | macnewbold | c) we did give our designer a bonus for the great work he did for us, without him asking about it |
| 22:00.43 | wps | yes, beandog, "part" |
| 22:00.54 | macnewbold | wps: exactly. that's why I thought your contract was idiotic :) (no offense) |
| 22:01.00 | macnewbold | like you said, discussions ended kind of quickly |
| 22:01.32 | wps | yup, but I do have plenty of work |
| 22:01.33 | macnewbold | because owning the rights to our logo was non-negotiable for us, and should be for almost every serious startup company |
| 22:01.52 | wps | so someone values it |
| 22:01.55 | macnewbold | wps: exactly. you can and should take the best deals you can get |
| 22:02.04 | macnewbold | but it isn't the right thing for everyone |
| 22:02.17 | macnewbold | and not everyone who "sells out" is doing it because they're a poor designer |
| 22:02.23 | macnewbold | many of them do it to make customres happy |
| 22:02.28 | macnewbold | let them _choose_ to give you lots of money, |
| 22:02.36 | macnewbold | instead of holding them over a barrel and dragging it out of them |
| 22:02.58 | macnewbold | I'd rather have happy customers who are free to choose than unhappy ones that pay the bills grudgingly |
| 22:03.02 | macnewbold | but tha'ts just me |
| 22:03.09 | macnewbold | sometimes oyu can have both |
| 22:03.22 | wps | yes, but you are a programmer and not an artistt |
| 22:03.31 | wps | most artist make art to make art and not to make money |
| 22:03.38 | wps | making money is a pleasant side effect |
| 22:03.57 | wps | if they can support their family while they do what they love? more the better |
| 22:04.38 | macnewbold | I am a programmer and an artist, just not a graphic artist |
| 22:04.45 | macnewbold | I value my programming highly |
| 22:04.52 | macnewbold | and so do my clients from what I gather |
| 22:05.09 | macnewbold | that's the same reason why I work |
| 22:05.21 | macnewbold | I do something I love that people value and are willing to pay for |
| 22:05.30 | macnewbold | and so I do something I love and support my family doing it |
| 22:06.07 | macnewbold | a pay check is a necessary side effect for me |
| 22:06.26 | beandog | toties |
| 22:06.35 | macnewbold | if nobody values an artist's "art" except for the artist, what is it really worth? |
| 22:06.36 | beandog | man, I gotta get a different irssi theme ... |
| 22:06.39 | macnewbold | value is about perception |
| 22:06.57 | macnewbold | and is a very individual thing |
| 22:07.22 | macnewbold | if something is worth X to me, and someone else thinks it is worth at least X to them as well, we can make a deal |
| 22:07.33 | macnewbold | especially if they think it is worth significantly more than X to them |
| 22:08.36 | macnewbold | if I make a program that is I feel is worth $10,000 for example, and nobody else thinks it is worth that much to them, then I'll never get $10,000 for my program |
| 22:09.14 | macnewbold | the "market value" is slightly different - it is an aggregate of the perceived value of something by a group of people |
| 22:09.27 | macnewbold | on the average, they're willing to pay market value for it |
| 22:09.44 | beandog | bob ross++ |
| 22:10.00 | macnewbold | take gasoline - most people are willing to sell gasoline right now for $2-3 per gallon, and most people are willing to buy it for that price - so that sets its market value |
| 22:10.12 | beandog | me too, he is freaking great |
| 22:10.26 | beandog | I cant believe he puts out that stuff so fast |
| 22:10.27 | macnewbold | same thing works with the stock market |
| 22:10.33 | macnewbold | beandog: he's dead |
| 22:10.47 | beandog | macnewbold: yah I know .... poor guy |
| 22:50.29 | *** join/#uphpu fungus (n=fungus@firebat.aros.net) |
| 22:50.29 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o fungus] by ChanServ |
| 23:20.10 | brasto | macnewbold, is Omniture's CEO John Pestana? |
| 23:22.19 | *** join/#uphpu jnbek (n=jnbek@c-24-10-178-17.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 23:30.39 | brasto | hmmm, looks like he is: http://www.omniture.com/company/directors |
| 23:30.55 | synic | http://themot.org/gallery/d/58721-1/pacmanchart.png (from eco) |
| 23:30.55 | brasto | he was my home teacher 8 years ago |
| 23:31.30 | brasto | he liked to talk about how much money he was making and how he was making more than his father did. |
| 23:31.31 | *** join/#uphpu fungus (n=fungus@firebat.aros.net) |
| 23:31.31 | *** mode/#UPHPU [+o fungus] by ChanServ |
| 23:32.17 | brasto | synic, love the pacman chart |
| 23:32.28 | synic | yeah, it's very informative |
| 23:32.33 | brasto | lol |
| 23:40.13 | brasto | speaking of informative, did you know that 99.9% of all people who get cancer ate carrots at some point in their lives? |
| 23:40.43 | *** join/#uphpu xilch|w (n=xilch@66.236.72.101.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 23:48.32 | bigdog_ut | and crapped corn |
| 23:53.46 | timinator_BRB | LOL |
| 23:54.28 | mindjuju | does anybody know the real words to that song, cause obviously, i didn't get them |
| 23:57.52 | fungus | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Crack_Corn |
| 23:59.26 | brasto | i found a url the other day for all sorts of pop songs and how they have been mis-heard, and how the lyrics really go last week. |
| 23:59.45 | brasto | it was interesting - i'll have to see if i can find it again |
