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| 16:47.17 | bigdog_ut | wps you around? |
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| 17:13.16 | bigdog_ut | macnewbold, you around? |
| 17:13.36 | wps | yes |
| 17:13.43 | wps | bigdog_ut: I would be interested in the project |
| 17:13.59 | bigdog_ut | did you check out the time frames? |
| 17:14.04 | wps | sounds a little boring but it would be "good working with a proper criminal again" |
| 17:14.51 | wps | oh… sorry… I must have missed time frames |
| 17:15.01 | wps | I thought you didn't know time frames and were going to have to get with them and get back to me |
| 17:15.14 | wps | sorry… there is _a lot_ of info on their FTP |
| 17:15.18 | wps | I just scanned the first few docs |
| 17:15.35 | bigdog_ut | yeah |
| 17:20.57 | wps | yeah it's in there? |
| 17:23.40 | bigdog_ut | let me double check |
| 17:25.01 | bigdog_ut | i think this will be a big project though |
| 17:26.32 | wps | for sure |
| 17:47.26 | macnewbold | bigdog_ut: yeah I'm here |
| 17:47.41 | macnewbold | man, we got more orders for visibone... we're up to 40% off on our order |
| 17:48.20 | macnewbold | $653 of merchandise for under $400, plus free shipping, which on all 18 items would probably have been $20-30 pretty easily, and about $60 total if we all ordered separately |
| 17:51.35 | *** join/#uphpu mindjuj1 (n=Administ@216.20.238.225) |
| 17:52.22 | macnewbold | not to intrude on your conversation, bigdog_ut and wps, but I think I know the project you're talking about, and yes, it sounds really big, and they've got a _ton_ of info |
| 17:52.39 | bigdog_ut | yes they do |
| 17:53.01 | bigdog_ut | that is what i am wondering about...i pooling resources on it |
| 17:54.10 | wps | you're familiar with the project, macnewbold ? |
| 17:58.03 | macnewbold | yeah, it's huge, wps |
| 17:58.08 | wps | what's your connection |
| 17:58.33 | macnewbold | we were maybe going to bid on it too, but it would take a whole lot of time and a whole lot of money, so if he's in a real rush, we're not the right team for him at the moment |
| 17:58.46 | macnewbold | he sent out email to uphpu-jobs several months ago |
| 17:58.51 | wps | ah |
| 17:58.51 | macnewbold | I'd been on his list since then |
| 17:59.03 | macnewbold | it makes me wonder how big of a hurry he really is in... he's taken almost 6 months to get this far |
| 17:59.13 | wps | interesting |
| 17:59.39 | macnewbold | we just don't have time to take 10+ hours to do a full proposal/bid on his project, and then not get it, and lose the time/$ that the proposal took |
| 18:00.04 | wps | makes sense |
| 18:00.08 | macnewbold | but if you and bigdog_ut want to join forces with CG or something, who knows ;) |
| 18:00.16 | macnewbold | it's a giant task he's asking for |
| 18:00.23 | macnewbold | replace everything 3rd party ASAP |
| 18:00.26 | _psychic_ | ? |
| 18:05.22 | wps | my position right now is that I have a lot of things that I want to get done… write a song, go for a walk, ride by bike, play with my baby, paint, etc… so I need to know for sure what it is up front and what he'll be paying |
| 18:05.34 | wps | since I do projects for fun and not income… it needs to be… well… fun :) |
| 18:06.34 | wps | well, that's not entirely too… I do supplement my income with it a little… but since it's not my primary source I like to be a little picky |
| 18:09.20 | macnewbold | yeah, that's good |
| 18:09.49 | macnewbold | we told him a ballpark in six figures and a timeframe measured in single and double-digit months |
| 18:10.10 | macnewbold | it's pretty darn big, and if he's not expecting to pay to have it done right, he's going to be disappointed |
| 18:13.56 | wps | this is different for you, since you do this for your day job… but one thing that has really bothered me recently is people that hire moonlighting consultants and then get mad when they are not available during business hours and/or do not give them eight hours of work a day |
| 18:14.30 | wps | if you hire a moonlighter, you'd better understand that it's going to take longer to produce it then it would if they were an employee |
| 18:17.29 | macnewbold | exactly |
| 18:17.41 | macnewbold | if you're clear in telling them up front what they're getting, |
| 18:17.49 | macnewbold | they can't get mad later that it isn't what they want |
| 18:18.21 | macnewbold | we get the same problem that think since we're a 5 person team, they can hire us and get 40 man-hours of work from us each day on their project |
| 18:18.41 | macnewbold | that's wrong both from the we-have-other-clients standpoint and from the divide-up-the-work standpoint |
| 18:19.13 | macnewbold | if we're lucky, and there's a good way to divide the project into two or more chunks, we can divide it between two people if scheduling allows |
| 18:19.27 | macnewbold | but on many sites, there's no good way to divide it up |
| 18:19.55 | macnewbold | cause it would cause too many meetings, miscommunications, bugs, etc to try and keep everything together while having two different people develop two tightly-connected pieces |
| 18:20.04 | wps | yup |
| 18:31.08 | wps | jsmith, can we get new/different rings on our phones? |
| 18:37.05 | wps | I know how to change them and select form the few on the phone, but I was wondering if you could install new ones |
| 18:37.22 | fungus | Does anyone know a good object relational mapping library for PHP w/o the whole framework crap? |
| 18:38.40 | fungus | oh, btw I am stuck w/ php4 |
| 18:38.50 | fungus | no pdo for me :( |
| 18:51.06 | bigdog_ut | nope...cause orms in php suck |
| 18:51.34 | fungus | I have been using SQLObject in python for my last project, and fell in love, but now I want one for php |
| 18:52.24 | bigdog_ut | i think the big reason you dont see them in php is because of the crappy object model in php |
| 18:53.07 | fungus | I have found a few, but most require php5. :( the rest pretty much suck from what I found so far |
| 18:54.03 | bigdog_ut | yeah...php4 and php5 have different object models so i doubt you are going to find php4 o/r mapping projects...and php5 does not have really good object support for something like o/r mapping |
| 18:54.30 | bigdog_ut | php really does not have good transaction support to allow that type of tool imho |
| 18:55.07 | bigdog_ut | and trying to create a query lang in php would like someone |
| 18:56.17 | fungus | That is just what I am finding out. I never knew what I was missing until I tried out SQLObject in python. Now I am cursed to write all the CRUD myself. |
| 19:23.10 | _psychic_ | Some are good some are bad. I took a Hibernate dive once. Boy-uh-boy did that suck. |
| 20:05.16 | *** join/#uphpu herlo (n=herlo@65.214.148.70) |
| 20:05.32 | herlo | congrats wps |
| 20:14.27 | Utah_Dave | has anyone here ever put together an MSI installer using Wix? |
| 20:15.13 | wps | herlo: on the kid? |
| 20:15.18 | herlo | uh huh |
| 20:27.14 | wps | thanks man |
| 20:27.36 | wps | she's a lot of fun |
| 20:27.44 | wps | grant, I'm not the one breast feeding however |
| 20:28.21 | bigdog_ut | _psychic_, what was wrong with hibernate...other than their documentation sucks |
| 20:30.26 | _psychic_ | the idea sucks |
| 20:30.37 | herlo | wps: hehe, but little ones don't bite for a while |
| 20:30.47 | bigdog_ut | idea of o/r mapping? |
| 20:31.00 | herlo | wps: then its apparently really painful, is this your first? |
| 20:31.23 | _psychic_ | bigdog_ut: no, Hibernate |
| 20:31.39 | _psychic_ | xml mappings |
| 20:31.40 | bigdog_ut | lol hibernate is very similar to other o/r mapping tools |
| 20:31.46 | bigdog_ut | most do xml mapping |
| 20:31.55 | _psychic_ | No reason to do mappings |
| 20:32.00 | _psychic_ | specially for field names |
| 20:32.02 | wps | yes |
| 20:32.16 | bigdog_ut | no reason to do mappings? not sure what you mean there? |
| 20:32.25 | _psychic_ | why tell the db what fields it has? |
| 20:32.31 | _psychic_ | when it ... already knows |
| 20:32.42 | bigdog_ut | that is not o/r mapping |
| 20:32.49 | _psychic_ | yeah but its Hibernate |
| 20:33.15 | bigdog_ut | hibernate is not about telling what the db has..it is mapping relations between objects from the database |
| 20:33.34 | _psychic_ | yes but you still have field mappings in order to use it, don't you? |
| 20:34.05 | _psychic_ | I understand what ORM is - I'm no expert on it, but I get the idea |
| 20:34.11 | _psychic_ | and HQL seems like a bad idea too |
| 20:34.18 | bigdog_ut | you map the fields from a db to objects and then map the relations from db to objects |
| 20:34.45 | _psychic_ | yes but why fields? |
| 20:34.50 | _psychic_ | it only adds to the maintenance factor |
| 20:34.58 | herlo | wps: was that yes for me? |
| 20:35.05 | _psychic_ | If you add a field mid-swing, you have to dig through the XML files to make sure everything is kosher again |
| 20:35.12 | bigdog_ut | because fields define relations between tables |
| 20:35.17 | wps | yes |
| 20:35.19 | _psychic_ | only foreign keys |
| 20:35.20 | wps | first kid |
| 20:35.31 | bigdog_ut | foreign, primary all relations |
| 20:35.33 | _psychic_ | and why do you have to specify the type of field too |
| 20:35.48 | herlo | wps: cool, good luck you first time father |
| 20:35.49 | bigdog_ut | cause your objects have type contraints and for conversion |
| 20:35.50 | _psychic_ | yeah so why do I have to tell Hibernate I have a title field that is a string? |
| 20:35.56 | wps | thanks |
| 20:36.11 | bigdog_ut | so that you can map that from object to database data type |
| 20:36.26 | _psychic_ | should be automatic |
| 20:36.41 | bigdog_ut | you can specify conversions...taht is the beauty of it |
| 20:36.56 | _psychic_ | not for me |
| 20:37.04 | _psychic_ | it gets in the way |
| 20:37.16 | _psychic_ | its configuration over convention |
| 20:37.58 | bigdog_ut | exactly...unless you are working in a lang that supports that type of stuff it would be useless |
| 20:38.19 | bigdog_ut | php could never deal with o/r mappings properly |
| 20:38.23 | _psychic_ | does for me |
| 20:38.51 | bigdog_ut | tell me how you are doing o/r mapping in php? |
| 20:39.01 | _psychic_ | using a framework |
| 20:39.08 | _psychic_ | its rails like |
| 20:39.13 | bigdog_ut | how is it done in the framework |
| 20:39.19 | _psychic_ | you declare a model class |
| 20:39.30 | _psychic_ | that is automatically tied to a database table by naming convention |
| 20:39.36 | _psychic_ | the fields for the table |
| 20:39.41 | _psychic_ | are detected and cached |
| 20:39.55 | _psychic_ | so in 5 lines I have a working class that models my DB |
| 20:40.01 | _psychic_ | no configuration |
| 20:40.02 | _psychic_ | if |
| 20:40.07 | _psychic_ | I've named things right |
| 20:40.07 | bigdog_ut | k what about the relations? |
| 20:40.21 | _psychic_ | var hasMany = array(); |
| 20:40.31 | bigdog_ut | and what about the logic vs. physical db mappings? |
| 20:40.46 | _psychic_ | not sure what you mean |
| 20:41.08 | bigdog_ut | physical structure of the db vs. the logic structure of the db |
| 20:41.19 | bigdog_ut | how are you mapping that with rails? |
| 20:41.41 | _psychic_ | not familiar with 'logic structure' of the db - you mean triggers and procedures and the like? |
| 20:41.58 | bigdog_ut | that is the physical structure |
| 20:42.09 | bigdog_ut | logic is your object mapping to the db |
| 20:42.11 | bigdog_ut | for example |
| 20:42.15 | bigdog_ut | say you have a person record |
| 20:42.29 | bigdog_ut | the layout of the db will be different than the layout of yoru object |
| 20:42.42 | bigdog_ut | your logic structure is your object layout |
| 20:42.52 | bigdog_ut | physical is how it is layout out in the db |
| 20:43.02 | _psychic_ | logic structure is managed in the model class then |
| 20:43.23 | bigdog_ut | but you dont always have a one to one mapping of the logic ot the physical |
| 20:43.29 | bigdog_ut | how is that taken care of in rails? |
| 20:43.38 | _psychic_ | I still don't understand what you're after. :) |
| 20:43.49 | _psychic_ | And I don't use rails |
| 20:44.05 | bigdog_ut | i thought your framework was rails? |
| 20:44.10 | _psychic_ | no |
| 20:44.19 | bigdog_ut | sorry "like rails" |
| 20:44.36 | bigdog_ut | building on the example of person object |
| 20:44.57 | bigdog_ut | in our object we might have our address and contact info in our person object |
| 20:45.08 | bigdog_ut | right |
| 20:45.16 | _psychic_ | k |
| 20:45.50 | bigdog_ut | but in the database we might do 3rd normal form and want the address and contact information in other tables...how are we going to map that in a logic vs. physical |
| 20:45.53 | bigdog_ut | structure |
| 20:46.02 | _psychic_ | model the other table and associate it |
| 20:46.04 | bigdog_ut | casue we can map direct object to table |
| 20:46.21 | _psychic_ | Person belongsTo Address |
| 20:46.49 | bigdog_ut | now i have 2 config files |
| 20:46.55 | bigdog_ut | person and address |
| 20:47.06 | bigdog_ut | where as in hibernate you would only have 1 |
| 20:47.29 | _psychic_ | yeah which is mostly useless information |
| 20:47.46 | _psychic_ | and the Address model allows you to interact with that information independent of Person |
| 20:47.50 | bigdog_ut | so im saying in your setup you have 2 config files and i only have 1 |
| 20:48.02 | _psychic_ | not config files |
| 20:48.03 | _psychic_ | classes |
| 20:48.12 | bigdog_ut | but an address does nothign unless i have a person assigned too it |
| 20:48.20 | bigdog_ut | so i need address with a person |
| 20:48.51 | _psychic_ | but if you add a new field to the person or address tables you have to go in and define the name and type and who knows what else |
| 20:48.55 | _psychic_ | with mine |
| 20:48.55 | _psychic_ | you don't do anything |
| 20:49.20 | bigdog_ut | that is fine...cause then i can set up additional relations |
| 20:49.27 | bigdog_ut | how do you cascade relations? |
| 20:49.38 | _psychic_ | cascade? |
| 20:49.54 | bigdog_ut | you have relations that map to other relations and then to other relations and so one |
| 20:49.56 | _psychic_ | like Author belongsTo Post belongsTo Blog? |
| 20:50.01 | bigdog_ut | yep |
| 20:50.07 | _psychic_ | just define it in the classes |
| 20:50.15 | _psychic_ | that would be three classes |
| 20:50.33 | _psychic_ | with their own association info in each |
| 20:50.45 | bigdog_ut | association to each other |
| 20:51.09 | _psychic_ | right |
| 20:51.31 | bigdog_ut | can you pass in objects to the framework and they will create the sql? |
| 20:52.10 | _psychic_ | well its PHP, so its more arrays, but yeah, basically |
| 20:52.22 | _psychic_ | $this->Person->save($data); |
| 20:52.34 | bigdog_ut | data is an array? |
| 20:52.36 | _psychic_ | $this->Person->Address->save($data) |
| 20:52.41 | _psychic_ | yeah |
| 20:53.45 | wps | ***** NEWS ALERT ****** |
| 20:53.57 | wps | Provo labs dissolved |
| 20:53.58 | wps | ***** NEWS ALERT ****** |
| 20:54.05 | wps | anyone know details about this? |
| 20:54.08 | wps | I'm curious |
| 20:54.15 | _psychic_ | anyone know what Provo labs is? |
| 20:54.16 | _psychic_ | ;) |
| 20:54.30 | _psychic_ | paul allen thingy |
| 20:54.36 | wps | http://www.provolabs.com/ |
| 20:55.10 | wps | a friend of high school worked there |
| 20:55.14 | _psychic_ | "Provo Labs is an incubator for Web 2.0 internet companies. In other words, we do business mashups." Yuck. :P |
| 20:55.15 | wps | they are (where) building C |
| 20:55.26 | herlo | _psychic_: you should ask Jordy |
| 20:55.33 | wps | he's the man: Jordan |
| 20:55.33 | _psychic_ | ? |
| 20:55.34 | wps | Gundy |
| 20:55.50 | herlo | http://jordy.gundy.org |
| 21:09.45 | macnewbold | yeah, I thought Gundy just went to work there? |
| 21:10.05 | *** join/#uphpu cboyack (n=cboyack@204.246.128.3) |
| 21:14.23 | Utah_Dave | macnewbold: are we down to a 100% discount on the Visibone Cheat sheets yet? :) |
| 21:14.33 | _psychic_ | haha |
| 21:14.59 | Utah_Dave | plus free shipping? |
| 21:17.34 | _psychic_ | I'm waiting until we're over 100% off, then I'm in. |
| 21:37.25 | *** join/#uphpu RyanE_ (i=Piadas@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 21:40.55 | herlo | macnewbold: he did |
| 21:45.47 | macnewbold | haha |
| 21:45.55 | macnewbold | Utah_Dave: we're very close to 45% off |
| 21:46.01 | macnewbold | but 50% off is his max |
| 21:46.13 | macnewbold | for $1000 and over, we get 50% off |
| 21:46.29 | macnewbold | if we get up to $1,000,000, he'll give us 50% off (a huge savings) and deliver them personally |
| 21:48.58 | bigdog_ut | lol |
| 21:49.14 | bigdog_ut | he should pay us to go there and pick them up |
| 21:51.52 | *** part/#uphpu cboyack (n=cboyack@204.246.128.3) |
| 22:13.51 | Utah_Dave | If I want to modify a <li> in css but only with a <ul> with id="sidenav" do I use .nav li ? |
| 22:14.24 | _psychic_ | ul.sidenav li |
| 22:15.29 | Utah_Dave | Oh, OK |
| 22:28.55 | _psychic_ | both would work, but your example also works for <div class="nav"><ul><li> |
| 22:33.14 | macnewbold | you can also use .sidenav li, which would loosen the restriction that the enclosing element of class sidenav be a ul |
| 22:33.55 | *** join/#uphpu mindjuju (n=Administ@216.20.238.225) |
| 22:34.30 | wps | with an ID, it would be ul#sidenav li |
| 22:35.19 | _psychic_ | good eye |
| 22:37.56 | Utah_Dave | I'm trying to do the usual horizontal dropdown navigation, but most of the examples that I've found don't work in IE. And unfortunately, that's all we have on our network |
| 22:38.53 | _psychic_ | I'll join your network, Utah_Dave |
| 22:55.17 | bigdog_ut | *** anyone want to review a book for uphpu? |
| 22:55.31 | bigdog_ut | i have 2 books that you can pick from |
| 22:55.58 | bigdog_ut | http://www.apress.com/book/bookDisplay.html?bID=10017 and http://www.apress.com/book/bookDisplay.html?bID=433 |
| 22:57.32 | mindjuju | macnewbold |
| 22:57.34 | mindjuju | you still around |
| 23:01.52 | bigdog_ut | no one wants a free book for a quick review? |
| 23:07.11 | bigdog_ut | ~insult macnewbold |
| 23:10.15 | Utah_Dave | bigdog_ut: I might be interested in the first one. |
| 23:10.29 | bigdog_ut | then dave you will get the first one |
| 23:10.37 | bigdog_ut | if you provide a review |
| 23:10.38 | bigdog_ut | lol |
| 23:12.59 | bigdog_ut | Utah_Dave, send me an email with your name and address and i will have apress mail that out too u |
| 23:14.29 | Utah_Dave | ok, |
| 23:14.55 | Utah_Dave | what email address should I send it to? |
| 23:23.59 | bigdog_ut | we have a lucky winner of the free book from apress....congrats Utah_Dave !!!! |
| 23:24.12 | Utah_Dave | woohoo! :) |
| 23:24.34 | bigdog_ut | he had some great odds of winning too 1:1 |
| 23:29.27 | *** join/#uphpu jsmith (n=jsmith@64.72.210.10) |
| 23:36.34 | *** part/#uphpu Utah_Dave (n=boucha@72.166.51.162) |