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| 17:28.09 | bigdog_ut | anyone have any experience with sms? |
| 17:29.59 | macnewbold | I've used it before, bigdog_ut |
| 17:30.28 | *** part/#uphpu Utah_Dave (n=boucha@72.166.51.162) |
| 17:30.42 | jsmith | bigdog_ut: I've sent sms messages -- does that count? |
| 17:31.14 | _psychic_ | I used a sms webservice once |
| 17:31.36 | mindjuju | i researched sms gateways |
| 17:33.40 | diskotec|w | I know what it stands for =P |
| 17:46.21 | xilch | mindjuju: I'd be interested to get that email about datawolf |
| 17:48.15 | macnewbold | the things I've always ended up looking at when we've tried to tie it into a web app was the SMS-to-email gateways that all major providers have |
| 17:48.46 | macnewbold | send an email to 8013329438@vtext.com (for some valid verizon phone number) and it gets converted to one or more SMS and sent to the phone |
| 17:49.03 | macnewbold | and send an SMS from your phone to any email address, and it gets autoconverted |
| 17:49.17 | macnewbold | so all you have to write on the web end is an email-based interaction system, |
| 17:49.21 | macnewbold | not a specifically SMS one |
| 17:54.45 | xilch | mindjuju: my email address is blip@mindzion.com |
| 17:58.06 | bigdog_ut | im wondering more on the server side...what types of sms servers anyone has used |
| 17:58.26 | bigdog_ut | hooked to perhaps a gsm modem or other device |
| 17:59.52 | macnewbold | there's a good open source SMS thingy that I read about |
| 17:59.56 | macnewbold | maybe opensms or something liek that |
| 18:00.02 | macnewbold | don't recall the name off hand |
| 18:00.34 | fungus | For paging and sms crap I just use qpage that dials the providers numbers and sends the page. |
| 18:01.07 | xilch | bigdog_ut: if you get it all figured out, let me know. I'd like to mess around with running an SMS server as well |
| 18:01.08 | fungus | not true sms, but almost every provider has an SNPP gateway |
| 18:01.28 | bigdog_ut | xilch, k |
| 18:01.53 | bigdog_ut | im looking at running a server and perhaps a gateway if possible..not sure i want to pay a monthly fee for that stuff |
| 18:02.10 | fungus | err, not snpp, but a TAP gateway |
| 18:03.52 | bigdog_ut | my big thing is that i will have mobile devices that are not phones |
| 18:04.41 | jsmith | bigdog_ut: I know just the guy you should talk to.... |
| 18:04.47 | fungus | oh, your *own* mobile devices. not devices from a third party. hrm. that is out of my realm. |
| 18:04.56 | bigdog_ut | who is that jsmith ? |
| 18:05.16 | jsmith | I'll tell you in a private message |
| 18:05.26 | bigdog_ut | k |
| 18:05.44 | macnewbold | doh |
| 18:05.48 | macnewbold | so much for listening closely |
| 18:06.10 | jsmith | Sorry... basically, I need to talk to the guy first and make sure he's ok with me giving his name out |
| 18:06.19 | bigdog_ut | yeah that is a good thing |
| 18:06.35 | bigdog_ut | anyone following the php dev discussion on oo strictness in php |
| 18:06.37 | bigdog_ut | ? |
| 18:08.33 | macnewbold | hehe |
| 18:09.14 | jsmith | There is no "strict"... there is no "struct".... 'nuff said |
| 18:09.22 | macnewbold | yeah, we just need an expert we can consult next time we have a client that wants to consider something SMSy |
| 18:09.42 | jsmith | macnewbold: That's pronounced S-M-Messy... |
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| 19:29.13 | wps | jsmith: I love my new phone |
| 19:29.17 | wps | go VOIP |
| 19:30.17 | jsmith | wps: Woo hoo! |
| 19:30.25 | jsmith | What's your new extension? |
| 19:30.31 | wps | 6159 |
| 19:31.11 | jsmith | Kewl... now I know how to call and harass you at work. |
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| 20:52.14 | macnewbold | sweet... on our VisiBone order (www.visibone.com/catalog/) we'll get at least 20% off and free shipping |
| 20:52.47 | macnewbold | (if anyone else wants to join in and get a browser book, card collection, or otherwise, let me know) |
| 21:03.16 | macnewbold | correction to the email: we're now guaranteed 25% off, and within $5 of getting 30% off |
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| 21:24.24 | wps | rlarts are very, very annoying |
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| 21:33.23 | macnewbold | ~rlart |
| 21:33.29 | macnewbold | sorry, wade... ;) |
| 21:34.01 | wps | I just find it annoying because I'll have a notice that someone mentioned me in an IRC channel and then I'll look it up and it's just some random lart that happened hours earlier |
| 21:34.15 | wps | (seems to be happening about once a week in #utah) |
| 21:34.21 | _psychic_ | ~bdhit macnewbold |
| 21:34.23 | jbot | ACTION leaps to Sunrise Claw of the Cruel Snake on macnewbold |
| 21:34.36 | _psychic_ | What else is this channel for?! |
| 21:34.37 | _psychic_ | ;) |
| 21:36.06 | jsmith | Obviously not for discussing PHP |
| 21:36.12 | _psychic_ | of course not |
| 21:38.04 | macnewbold | ~phplart jsmith |
| 21:38.22 | macnewbold | hm, that one doesn't work |
| 21:38.38 | macnewbold | so on the visibone order, we're up to at least 30% off with free shipping |
| 21:38.51 | macnewbold | 1-2 more items and we'll all get 35% off |
| 21:39.15 | macnewbold | and FWIW, the visibone store looks to all be done in OSCommerce |
| 21:40.56 | macnewbold | nevermind, that's already changed. 35% off now. |
| 21:46.30 | jnbek | is there a framework like Rails for PHP, and if so has anyone used it? |
| 21:46.58 | jsmith | jnbek: There are lots of frameworks... |
| 21:47.49 | jnbek | i mean, i like rails, but it's not PHP, i guess i'm looking for one that's close to if not exactly like, RoR |
| 21:51.32 | _psychic_ | php on trax |
| 21:51.33 | _psychic_ | cakephp |
| 21:52.36 | jnbek | cool, thx, i was just looking at tose :)) |
| 21:52.37 | _psychic_ | jnbek: ^ |
| 21:54.25 | macnewbold | those are the closest ones |
| 21:54.43 | macnewbold | I've heard biscuit is another one that is php4 compatible, but haven't looked at it much |
| 21:55.03 | macnewbold | there might be some past presentations on uphpu.org that give lists, I know we've talked about them in at least a couple of meetings |
| 21:55.52 | _psychic_ | biscuit is pretty dead |
| 21:56.11 | _psychic_ | 127 members on the list, last post was 6/7 |
| 21:56.21 | _psychic_ | s/dead/stale/g |
| 21:56.27 | macnewbold | ouch |
| 21:56.31 | macnewbold | stale is right |
| 21:56.45 | _psychic_ | there's code igniter |
| 21:56.54 | _psychic_ | but that's a lot like cakephp 0.9 |
| 21:56.55 | macnewbold | yeah, I've heard good things about it |
| 21:57.28 | _psychic_ | I wonder if they used early cakephp to start out - its very similar |
| 21:57.44 | macnewbold | you might want to take a look at http://www.johntaber.com/?p=10 for a good review of several of them, by a local UPHPU member |
| 21:58.32 | macnewbold | that's talks about a bunch of them, jnbek |
| 21:58.39 | _psychic_ | I read that, but he seems against frameworks from the get go |
| 21:58.42 | macnewbold | hehe |
| 21:58.44 | macnewbold | yeah, partly |
| 21:58.56 | _psychic_ | ? |
| 21:59.00 | macnewbold | he's frustrated cause he's tried a bunch and none of them really end up working out as well as they want you to think they will |
| 21:59.03 | _psychic_ | at the end he says to just get phpeclipse |
| 21:59.15 | macnewbold | he outlines his biases and his requirements at the start though |
| 21:59.20 | macnewbold | YMMV ;) |
| 21:59.39 | _psychic_ | yeah but a bias against frameworks altogether seems an odd preface for an article on framework selection |
| 21:59.40 | macnewbold | _psychic_ is a cake expert, jnbek, so that's a thing to keep in mind... local resources |
| 21:59.58 | _psychic_ | yeah I have my own biases - but I would highly recommend using a framework of some sort |
| 22:00.20 | macnewbold | yes, true, but I'm in a similar boat to him - there are things I need in a framework, and things I can't have/don't want to tolerate in my framework |
| 22:00.28 | macnewbold | and so choosing one is hard |
| 22:00.36 | _psychic_ | there's nothing that gets in my way |
| 22:00.51 | macnewbold | and so far I haven't found one that matched well enough to my needs to make it worth the switch and commitment |
| 22:01.10 | _psychic_ | I've found it cuts my dev time in less than half if not much more |
| 22:23.15 | macnewbold | less than half relative to starting completely from scratch? yes, probably so. We get a similar time savings from the way we already do it, sans-framework though. |
| 22:23.30 | macnewbold | plus many of our sites are too custom to fit well within some of the rigidity that frameworks push on us |
| 22:23.53 | macnewbold | if you're going to deviate from the way the framework wants you to do it, it often kills the time savings and then some |
| 22:23.59 | _psychic_ | I don't usually understand it when people talk framework rigidity. :/ |
| 22:25.50 | macnewbold | there are a lot of things that you get "free" with a framework, whether you want them or not |
| 22:26.08 | _psychic_ | like community testing and contributed code ;) |
| 22:26.17 | macnewbold | most of them push you into a code base that is very heavily object oriented |
| 22:26.24 | macnewbold | many of them push you into PHP5 |
| 22:26.33 | macnewbold | many of them push you into a strict MVC |
| 22:26.44 | macnewbold | some impose a templating system on you, IIRC |
| 22:27.06 | macnewbold | for me, any/all of those would be [big] downsides |
| 22:27.14 | _psychic_ | OO? |
| 22:27.19 | macnewbold | yep |
| 22:27.23 | _psychic_ | wow |
| 22:27.32 | macnewbold | OO = more lines of code, which leads to more bugs |
| 22:27.37 | macnewbold | it has its place |
| 22:27.43 | _psychic_ | that's a bit of a generalization |
| 22:27.47 | macnewbold | but most of the benefits OO would provide over the way I do it now |
| 22:27.54 | macnewbold | are not things I need, and take extra time |
| 22:28.08 | _psychic_ | well |
| 22:28.11 | _psychic_ | more lines of code like |
| 22:28.13 | macnewbold | yes, it's a generalization. More LOC = more bugs and more time |
| 22:28.16 | _psychic_ | class ClassName |
| 22:28.21 | _psychic_ | that isn't going to make it more buggy |
| 22:28.36 | _psychic_ | and by and large OO code is more structured and organized, and way more maintainable |
| 22:28.38 | macnewbold | no, but think of all the getters and setters you usually have to create and use with OO |
| 22:28.48 | _psychic_ | I never use getters and setters |
| 22:28.48 | macnewbold | I agree totally on that, _psychic_ |
| 22:28.58 | macnewbold | but that's not a benefit we're in need of |
| 22:29.09 | macnewbold | either the project isn't big enough to merit the extra time/investment, |
| 22:29.25 | macnewbold | or the organization and structure we already have is maintainable enough already |
| 22:29.43 | macnewbold | most OO'ers I've seen use getters and setters, so I'm happy to hear you're not one of them :) |
| 22:29.47 | macnewbold | they always seemed lame to me |
| 22:30.22 | macnewbold | a lot of OO code I have seen would get in my way a lot more than it would help me develop good code quickly |
| 22:30.30 | macnewbold | another big OO benefit is reuse |
| 22:30.45 | macnewbold | but there really are only a handful of things that I can reuse without customizing heavily from one site to another |
| 22:30.53 | macnewbold | so copy-and-paste reuse is usually the quickest path |
| 22:31.03 | _psychic_ | I guess if I was developing small things I wasn't going to need reuse out of, I might not OOP it up either. |
| 22:31.14 | macnewbold | that's where we are most of the time |
| 22:31.25 | macnewbold | so that's why we haven't done much of ut |
| 22:31.26 | macnewbold | it |
| 22:31.40 | macnewbold | I'll use a class here and there for something like my authorize.net functionality, |
| 22:31.41 | _psychic_ | I thought you guys had some pretty complex apps |
| 22:31.44 | macnewbold | where it's the same no matter where I use it |
| 22:32.10 | macnewbold | we do, but the giant ones are only about 10% of our load |
| 22:32.14 | macnewbold | of our clients, I mean |
| 22:32.21 | macnewbold | over 50% are small I'd say, |
| 22:32.25 | macnewbold | and about 40% medium sized |
| 22:32.51 | macnewbold | we take care to put things together in a way that is maintainable, |
| 22:33.01 | macnewbold | but a class usually doesn't give us any extra there |
| 22:33.26 | _psychic_ | A framework would, though imho |
| 22:33.51 | macnewbold | one heavily OO site that we were asked to do some work on was created with a code generator, to build out all the lame and tedious OO boilerplate, and we had to make changes without the generator. it was horrific. |
| 22:34.05 | _psychic_ | php? |
| 22:34.21 | macnewbold | yes, in php. yeah, if we found a framework that would help us more than hurt us, we'd totally do it |
| 22:34.31 | macnewbold | I keep reexamining them about every year or so, |
| 22:34.35 | macnewbold | and still haven't found one I like |
| 22:34.45 | _psychic_ | I doubt you will |
| 22:35.05 | macnewbold | cake and PHP on trax are probably the closest, I think, but we're not at a point where we can go all php5 yet |
| 22:35.11 | macnewbold | yeah, I'm too set in my ways sometimes |
| 22:35.14 | _psychic_ | cake isn't php5 |
| 22:35.24 | _psychic_ | (only) |
| 22:35.25 | macnewbold | we've spent so long making due, that we've now got some really good tools of our own |
| 22:35.45 | macnewbold | yeah, features I most liked in Trax when I saw it turned out to only be possible in php5 |
| 22:35.52 | macnewbold | I'll have to take another look at cake soon |
| 22:35.57 | _psychic_ | trax is a ruby on rails port |
| 22:36.21 | macnewbold | is there a well known "best" intro/tutorial on cake somewhere? |
| 22:37.15 | _psychic_ | there's a chapter in the manual that walks you through building an app |
| 22:37.19 | _psychic_ | http://manual.cakephp.org/chapter/20 |
| 22:38.07 | _psychic_ | You're probably not going to like Cake, though - its oop in many places - its all MVC |
| 22:39.20 | _psychic_ | but there's no magic template language |
| 22:39.23 | _psychic_ | and its php4/5 |
| 22:39.27 | macnewbold | that's a plus, and so is that |
| 22:39.40 | _psychic_ | I did a site last month |
| 22:39.51 | _psychic_ | from scratch |
| 22:40.04 | macnewbold | It isn't that I mind OOP terribly, it's just got to let me write plain old normal functions sometimes without putting them in a class for no reason |
| 22:40.08 | macnewbold | and it sonuds like cake will |
| 22:40.24 | _psychic_ | yeah |
| 22:40.34 | _psychic_ | but I'd imagine most functions would end up in controllers or models |
| 22:40.42 | _psychic_ | if you're going to do it MVC |
| 22:41.42 | macnewbold | yeah, that's something we don't really do yet |
| 22:41.50 | _psychic_ | its killer |
| 22:41.58 | _psychic_ | makes things super easy to add and extend |
| 22:42.11 | macnewbold | I've always had the impression that MVC splits things up in a way that many changes make me edit 3 files, vs 1 if I hadn't done MVC on it |
| 22:42.42 | _psychic_ | yeah but if you want to add functionality its 10 times easier than if all your logic presentation and data interaction is all in one file |
| 22:43.06 | macnewbold | that depends |
| 22:43.48 | _psychic_ | I'm my experience, separation has saved the day 99 times out of 100. |
| 22:44.05 | _psychic_ | Its really nice for giving your application different interfaces too |
| 22:44.18 | _psychic_ | 'specially for webservices and flash remoting and the like |
| 22:44.32 | macnewbold | a really common thing we do is to make one page that knows how to: display a form, prefill it from the db, prefill it from a previous submission, check a submission for errors, and save the validated submission into the database. |
| 22:44.57 | macnewbold | if we split that up into more files, we'd most likely have to modify several of them any time we changed the set of fields, for example |
| 22:45.23 | macnewbold | and it seems like we'd always be looking at more than one of them to get any changes made, referring back and forth |
| 22:45.50 | _psychic_ | the way cake works you dont |
| 22:45.56 | _psychic_ | you just change the form and that's it |
| 22:46.14 | macnewbold | I can count on one hand the number of times we've had to do "different interfaces" like that, probably on fewer than two fingers. One reason we've avoided the extra cost of preparing for it. |
| 22:46.20 | macnewbold | that's sounding pretty appealing so far |
| 22:46.30 | macnewbold | you may make a sale on this one... |
| 22:46.32 | _psychic_ | so your saving validation logic is like 15 lines |
| 22:46.47 | _psychic_ | and you can even have cake automatically generate the form for you in the first place ;) |
| 22:47.42 | _psychic_ | I'm not trying to sell anyone |
| 22:47.55 | _psychic_ | its just that I like the new way of doing things |
| 22:48.00 | macnewbold | ah, and the weird file layout in the web root directory is another hurdle for me |
| 22:48.09 | _psychic_ | Its like finding out your car has 8 gears all of the sudden |
| 22:48.16 | macnewbold | I'd love to try it if I can get over my obstacles |
| 22:48.21 | _psychic_ | macnewbold: how so? |
| 22:49.12 | macnewbold | I don't get it, I don't like it, it's foreign, and it doesn't make sense at all (yet?) |
| 22:49.31 | macnewbold | I want to decide where I put stuff |
| 22:49.32 | macnewbold | I want to be able to make a file called index.php and have it do what I'd expect |
| 22:49.40 | macnewbold | or make a foo.php and have a foo.php url work |
| 22:49.49 | macnewbold | I probably just need to figure it out and try it |
| 22:49.58 | _psychic_ | maybe |
| 22:50.03 | macnewbold | so in our case, where we make many apps, |
| 22:50.13 | _psychic_ | you might want to read up on MVC if you're not familiar with it too |
| 22:50.18 | macnewbold | would you recommend one shared cake dir, or separate ones for all of them? |
| 22:50.28 | macnewbold | I don't want upgrades to cake to break older sites |
| 22:50.30 | _psychic_ | you can have one shared cake libs directory |
| 22:50.36 | _psychic_ | or you can do whatever |
| 22:50.46 | _psychic_ | so, whatever works for each app, I guess |
| 22:51.03 | macnewbold | how likely would a cake upgrade be to break functionality in the app? |
| 22:51.06 | _psychic_ | macnewbold: MVC works a little different (as far as index.php and foo.php) goes... |
| 22:51.23 | _psychic_ | macnewbold: no way to tell, really... It totally depends :/ |
| 22:51.25 | macnewbold | yeah, I'm not a fan of MVC, though I haven't really tried it yet |
| 22:51.36 | _psychic_ | instead of creating php files all over |
| 22:51.44 | _psychic_ | you create controllers that handle your requests |
| 22:51.59 | _psychic_ | its really nice for organizing your logic |
| 22:52.53 | macnewbold | "really nice" is subjective... ;) |
| 22:53.00 | _psychic_ | true |
| 22:53.05 | macnewbold | if I liked MVC, it probably would be |
| 22:53.07 | _psychic_ | like I said you might not like it at all |
| 22:53.18 | macnewbold | but as a non-MVC guy, it isn't sounding appealing yet |
| 22:53.22 | _psychic_ | but I like it because all my logic relating to a certain thing is all in one place |
| 22:53.31 | macnewbold | I appreciate you taking time to talk to me about all this |
| 22:53.38 | _psychic_ | so if I want new functionality, I know where to add it and extend it, etc. |
| 22:53.38 | macnewbold | right, which we usually do anyway |
| 22:53.59 | _psychic_ | well then you're already doing it - not just making random files everywhere ;) |
| 22:54.13 | _psychic_ | I like to share ideas - it makes you think |
| 22:54.49 | macnewbold | me too |
| 22:57.08 | bigdog_ut | mvc sucks |
| 22:57.20 | _psychic_ | why |
| 22:57.27 | bigdog_ut | cuase i wanted to say that |
| 22:57.36 | bigdog_ut | actually i use it all the time |
| 22:58.25 | _psychic_ | :) |
| 22:58.53 | bigdog_ut | i do think in php it is not that greawt |
| 22:59.09 | _psychic_ | anything is better than Java |
| 23:00.03 | bigdog_ut | ~lart _psychic_ |
| 23:02.10 | _psychic_ | hehe |