irclog2html for #uphpu on 20060327

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15:27.04dataw0lfUtah_Dave: um, I am now. :)
15:28.22Utah_Daveyeah, I was wondering if you have an opinion on Twisted?  I'm starting up an app at work and I'm trying to decide how to run the backend
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15:38.11dataw0lfUtah_Dave: I'm not a fan.  It's way too bloated imho.
15:38.27synicmust be talking about eclipse.
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15:38.49dataw0lfdef qsort(l):
15:38.51dataw0lf<PROTECTED>
15:39.01dataw0lf<PROTECTED>
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15:39.57dataw0lf3 line qsort, now THAT's Python.
15:42.56Utah_Dave:)
15:48.26Utah_Daveok, I'm building an app with a wxPython gui for the workstations. I want to have as much of the functionality in the backend so I can do a web gui for some of the basic functions
15:55.36dataw0lfyea?
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16:59.40mindjujucurious comments from steve ballmer (COO {i think} of Microsoft) about linux
16:59.42mindjujuhttp://www.forbes.com/home/enterprisetech/2006/03/22/ballmer-microsoft-linux-cz_df_0322microsoft.html
17:00.18wpsI thought that ballmer was the CEO
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17:01.21mindjujuyour right, CEO, i missed that in the article
17:08.20dataw0lfDo the Ballmer dance!
17:08.46dataw0lfBallmer is insane, I wouldn't take anything he says seriously.
17:12.36dataw0lfhehe
17:12.37dataw0lfhttp://blogs.smh.com.au/dissection/archives/2006/02/feeling_peaky_1.html
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22:26.53_psychic_anyone know the equivalent to print_r or var_dump in javascript?
22:28.02RyanEhttp://www.brandnewbox.co.uk/logbook/web/javascript/printr.html
22:28.07dataw0lfhttp://www.depressedpress.com/Content/Development/JavaScript/Extensions/DP_DeBug/Index.cfm
22:28.15RyanE_psychic_: google "print_r javascript"
22:28.23_psychic_there's not a native function?
22:28.26dataw0lfor google "variable dumping javascript"
22:28.40RyanEI would suppose not, since someone right here has implemented one in about 15 lines
22:30.00_psychic_thanks
22:30.03_psychic_:/
22:34.27_psychic_lol
22:34.43_psychic_googling variable dumping javascript yields no results, and the linked fx doesn't work. ;)
22:35.10dataw0lfthat's funny because I've gotten a bunch of results from variable dumping javascript
22:35.32RyanEand there's other functions further down results that you could try.
22:35.41dataw0lfhttp://www.codingforums.com/archive/index.php?t-20663.html
22:35.50dataw0lfthat's another result from variable dumping javascript
22:47.18mindjujuNEWSFLASH!!! -- dataw0lf saved some womans life and got on the news!!!
22:47.35dataw0lfeveryone knew that already.
22:47.59dataw0lfI messaged half this channel right after it happened.
22:48.08dataw0lf'omg I'm a hero watch the news'
22:48.21dataw0lfbut it didn't air that night, it aired the next morning. :-|
22:48.23mindjujuthat's really cool, if you get the vid let me know
22:48.30dataw0lfI'm trying.
22:48.41RyanEdataw0lf: how long ago was this?
22:48.43_psychic_what happened? got a link to the story or something?
22:49.33dataw0lfRyanE: dang, maybe a month or so ago.
22:49.38dataw0lfmaybe longer.
22:49.45dataw0lfI was just walking to the store to buy cigarettes.
22:49.58dataw0lfand all of a sudden, this chick pulls out from a side street onto 33rd
22:50.12RyanEso, you're saying that cigarettes save lives?  :)
22:50.15dataw0lflike right next to me
22:50.19dataw0lfand she got plowed
22:50.27dataw0lfit was so close I almost pissed my pants
22:50.43dataw0lfbut the car was about 50 yards away from me
22:50.52dataw0lfand this woman is unconscious bent over the steering wheel
22:50.58dataw0lfbleeding from the head
22:51.00dataw0lfI ran over there
22:51.08dataw0lfand the front of the car had flames licking up from it
22:51.30RyanEvery cool.
22:51.32dataw0lfso I was like 'oh sh*t' and unbuckled her seatbelt and hauled her unconscious butt out
22:51.48dataw0lfabout 20 feet away from the car it kinda went "poof" and flames went really high
22:51.51dataw0lfit didn't really explode
22:52.02dataw0lfthe flames just made a woofing noise and went really high
22:52.38RyanEso after the 'woof', was it engulfed, or just more intense?
22:52.42dataw0lfjust more intense
22:52.53dataw0lfI'm pretty sure the gas tank was probably empty
22:52.58dataw0lfor else we might've been screwed
22:53.21RyanEI think it's pretty uncommon for the gas tank to blow, and I suspect it's MORE common if the tank is empty.
22:53.31mindjujusome theatrical hero music playing in the background
22:53.34dataw0lfin Iraq the cars always blew up
22:53.43dataw0lfof course, that was usually due to .50 cal machine gun fire
22:53.47dataw0lfor rpgs
22:53.51dataw0lfor grenades
22:53.53RyanEI've pulled my own butt out of a burning car, multiple times.  Same car.  Put the fire out, start it up, drive home.
22:53.54dataw0lfor ied
22:53.56dataw0lfs*
22:54.01dataw0lfRyanE: lol
22:54.03dataw0lfthat's awesome
22:54.16RyanEIt was a '67 ford galaxy.  Had an annoying tendency to backfire into the carb.
22:54.16mindjujuk, i got some good news and bad news
22:54.26mindjuju<PROTECTED>
22:54.26mindjuju<PROTECTED>
22:54.26mindjujuA: It is Fox 13 policy NOT  to make copies of our newscasts. However, there are a few places in town that  tape all local broadcasts and provide clips for a fee.
22:54.44mindjujuAffordable News Clips - $30
22:54.49dataw0lfmindjuju: Well, they told me they would give me a copy
22:54.51mindjujuUtah News Clips: $50
22:54.56mindjujuah, cool
22:55.06dataw0lfbut they had to wait a couple weeks to let it expire or something
22:55.12dataw0lfI need to call them back
22:55.19dataw0lfI'm pretty forgetful about my heroics, y'know
22:55.26dataw0lfsince I like am a hero everyday
22:55.29dataw0lf:D
22:55.57mindjujuwe should screen the vid when you get it at a uphpu meeting
22:56.41RyanEI've been in the paper... http://deseretnews.com/dn/view2/1,4382,600129057,00.html
22:57.00RyanEnot too amazing, though, despite the name.
22:57.45mindjujucool though, nice pic
22:58.10lars-utRyanE: your son looks concerned in the photo
22:58.21RyanEhe should've been.  I can't eat that fast.
22:58.46lars-utthat your sweetie cheerin' you on?
22:58.48RyanEesp. a sausage and onion pizza.
22:58.51RyanEyeah
22:58.53dataw0lfRyanE: dude, you like you're about to barf
22:59.00dataw0lflook*
22:59.16RyanEI was about done with a pretty good sized pizza.
22:59.53RyanEand yeah, I wish I could've.  We got a coupon as second place losers (along with a lot of other stuff) to go to Calif. Pizza Kitchens, haven't used it yet.
23:00.05RyanEno desire to eat a pizza there after having to scarf.
23:00.06dataw0lfnice
23:00.09dataw0lfhehe
23:00.16lars-utRyanE: think we're doin' homemade Phily Cheesesteaks tomorrow night - courtesy of Justin.  You comin'?
23:00.22RyanEPaige is the radio queen.
23:00.31RyanElars-ut: I may come, but I can't share in the food, as you know.
23:00.40RyanEGotta do some negotiating first.
23:00.41dataw0lfspeaking of heros, my dress blues and medals came in today! woohoo!
23:00.48macnewboldsweet
23:00.51dataw0lfoh man I'm wearing these everywhere.
23:00.54macnewboldcame in from where?
23:01.15dataw0lfI had a friend buy em at clothing at the post in germany so I wouldn't have to pay the civilian cost
23:01.25macnewboldah, nice
23:01.28dataw0lfand the medals were supplied by the army, I just had my friend sign for them and ship them with the class blues
23:01.54lars-utI was expecting a concert t-shirt version of dataw0lf, dress blues would throw me off.
23:01.56dataw0lfI need to make a meeting one of these days.
23:02.00macnewboldyeah
23:02.15RyanEdataw0lf: is there any restriction on wearing it?
23:02.16dataw0lflars-ut: yea, I look quite a bit different in military gear.
23:02.21dataw0lfRyanE: Nope.
23:02.41dataw0lfas an honorablely discharged veteran I get to wear anything I earned while in the military.
23:03.10lars-utwhen would you though?
23:03.13dataw0lfand my friend got all the right patches too :D  I was hoping he wouldn't screw up the unit I have for my combat patch (I went to war with three different units)
23:03.29dataw0lflars-ut: at protests, of course! :-)
23:03.37lars-utlol
23:03.52lars-uta la protestwarrior.com ?
23:04.18dataw0lfnah, ala i'maveteranwhodoesn'twantsoldiersiniraq.com
23:04.47lars-utno argument here
23:04.57dataw0lfand when you wear a uniform like mine the conservatives have a hard time arguing with you.
23:05.13dataw0lfit's a cheap blow, but hey, I earned it.
23:05.51dataw0lfnot that people supporting the war nowadays are conservatives in my mind.  I love traditional conservatives.  
23:06.02lars-ut&which party would that be?
23:06.24dataw0lflibertarians nowadays.
23:06.27lars-utamen
23:06.30dataw0lftrue that.
23:06.48lars-utalthough I've liked some of the constitutionalist stuff I've read
23:07.51lars-utI've only voted for 3 parties that I can remember: Reps, Dems, & Libertarians
23:08.22lars-utsorry - off topic but I couldn't resist
23:08.38dataw0lfDems and Libertarians here
23:09.00RyanEI like librarians, except they're always shushing ms.
23:09.05RyanEs/ms/me
23:09.08dataw0lfhehe.
23:09.20dataw0lflars-ut: I don't mind Federalism either.
23:09.26lars-utRyanE: Come tomorrow night then, we're sure to have lively discussion
23:10.20dataw0lflars-ut: ha! yea right.
23:10.24dataw0lfnot under Bush, that's for sure.
23:10.44dataw0lfdoesn't Bush seem more like an evil warmongering Democrat to you than anything else?
23:11.00lars-utI'm amazed at the amount of spending
23:11.05dataw0lfit's like he took the worst traits of the two worst parties and put em together.
23:11.09RyanEyeah, it's a money pit.
23:11.13dataw0lfI can't believe it.
23:11.20dataw0lfthis guy calls himself a conservative?!
23:12.10lars-utleads me to start to believe UN/Bush conspiracies...
23:12.27dataw0lfeveryone here knows my opinion on Bush to a great extent, so I'll shut up :)
23:12.51lars-utI see the influence of globalism increasing way too fast
23:13.08dataw0lfit's really an intended hegemony.
23:14.20dataw0lfI'll go from complaining about Bush to complaining about PHP
23:14.57dataw0lf$array["a"] = "foo";
23:14.57dataw0lf$array["b"] = "";
23:14.57dataw0lf$array["c"] = "spam";
23:14.57dataw0lf$array["d"] = "eggs";
23:14.57dataw0lfprint end($array);
23:14.57dataw0lfwhile($val = prev($array)) {
23:14.59dataw0lfprint $val;
23:15.01dataw0lf}
23:15.03dataw0lfBAD PHP!
23:15.05dataw0lfVERY BAD!
23:16.23mindjujubummer, was trying to find the script for monty python's holy grail to paste in comments from their discussion on politics
23:16.53dataw0lfhah
23:17.21dataw0lfcan anyone explain why PHP behaves that way?
23:17.26dataw0lfooh, yea, poor design.
23:18.32mindjujucurious, i would have thought macnewbold would have lart'ed you by now
23:18.35mindjujuhe must be away
23:19.04macnewbold~bonk dataw0lf
23:19.06jbotACTION bonks dataw0lf over the head
23:19.29dataw0lfhehe
23:19.37dataw0lfyou have to admit, that behavior is troubling.
23:21.03macnewbolddataw0lf: what behavior? I see the code, but no result of running it
23:21.16dataw0lfbah, lemme show you bro
23:21.36macnewboldit looks like it would print it in reverse order, no?
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23:22.06dataw0lfdataw0lf.org/test.php
23:22.14dataw0lfit exits on the blank array element
23:22.59mindjujuweird!  what version of PHP?
23:23.19macnewboldum, that's cause blank is false
23:23.46macnewboldtry while (FALSE !== ($val = prev($array)))
23:23.58dataw0lfsee, I don't like that behavior.
23:24.05macnewboldit's called type juggling
23:24.05fungusor reverse the array, and use a foreach
23:24.12macnewboldI believe perl does it too
23:24.28dataw0lfwell I'm not a fan of perl either.
23:24.34macnewbold~bonk dataw0lf
23:24.35jbotACTION bonks dataw0lf over the head
23:24.40macnewboldhehe
23:24.56macnewboldit's a matter of taste then, not "PHP is poorly designed"
23:25.14fungusI agree that that is a strange quirk, but the benefits of type juggling can be easy for quick development.
23:25.37dataw0lfoh, c'mon, PHP _is_ poorly designed
23:25.53dataw0lfover five thousand functions in the global namespace?
23:25.59dataw0lfall with different naming conventions?
23:26.06dataw0lfimplementing exceptions half assed?
23:26.08fungusI wouldn't call it poorly designed, just designed differently.
23:26.11dataw0lfsorry about the language
23:26.12macnewboldamen
23:26.13_psychic1its not poorly designed.... its just not designed at all ;)
23:26.18dataw0lf_psychic1: there yah go
23:26.23macnewbold~bonk _psychic1_
23:26.24jbotACTION bonks _psychic1_ over the head
23:26.24_psychic1But I love it
23:26.25RyanEdataw0lf: be fair... all of them have the same naming convention.  *random*.
23:26.35dataw0lfPHP is just a play language, that's how I'll look at it
23:26.44dataw0lfthat's why I figured out the greatest framework evar:
23:26.48dataw0lfuse PHP as the templating language
23:26.53dataw0lfand Python as the backend language
23:26.56RyanEdataw0lf: and sometimes it's fun to play in a play language
23:27.01dataw0lfRyanE: oh, surely.
23:27.03macnewboldfor a "play" language, it sure makes it quick and easy to get a whole lot of work done, and make a bunch of money
23:27.05dataw0lfI don't hate PHP
23:27.24fungusdataw0lf: Python and PHP!  cool.  How did ya do that.
23:27.24dataw0lfI'm just saying that it doesn't hold it's own outside of smallish web development.
23:27.40dataw0lffungus: PHP code object passing to Python
23:27.41macnewboldI like PHP because it makes it quick and easy to get the job done. It is focused on a narrower range of applications than a "general purpose" language,
23:27.49dataw0lfmacnewbold: oh, definitely.
23:28.03macnewboldand so it can do a better job for its intended purpose than others that have to be general can
23:28.12RyanEand besides, it's *popular*.  That means it MUST be good.
23:28.19dataw0lfmacnewbold: I just don't see it doing any heavy lifting as far as I'm concerned.
23:28.21_psychic_and PHP is good for bigger-than-smallish
23:28.29dataw0lfRyanE: oh, yea.  Like Java.  >_<
23:28.36macnewbolddefine "heavy lifting"?
23:28.46RyanE_psychic_: if your developers are self-disciplined enough to do it right.
23:28.53RyanEi.e. not like those lazy Linux developers.
23:29.04dataw0lfwell, I've encountered the problems that come with PHP on a larger scale
23:29.08RyanEmore like those primo OpenBSD devs.
23:29.09_psychic_RyanE: That goes without saying for any project, any language.
23:29.12dataw0lfteam wise and LOC/design wise
23:29.16dataw0lfand it wasn't pretty.
23:29.34dataw0lfAnd, despite all the ad hominem you might heap on me, we did do a fair job designing and extracting it.
23:29.41_psychic_haha
23:30.00dataw0lfNow you all know I'll agree PHP dev can be FUN
23:30.04dataw0lfand it's AWESOME for alot of things.
23:30.16dataw0lfbut not for anything beyond, at best, a small-medium scale application.
23:30.19RyanEIt's 20% less icky than Perl.
23:30.32_psychic_Yeah, and most websites are medium or smaller
23:30.42RyanE_psychic_: at least they *start out* that way
23:30.47_psychic_We're not going to write eBay on PHP yet.
23:30.48RyanEthen become intractible nightmares in PHP.
23:30.50dataw0lfRyanE: way more than that.
23:30.52RyanEwhen they grow.
23:30.59funguseww Python *in* PHP
23:31.01fungushttp://www.csh.rit.edu/~jon/projects/pip/
23:31.05_psychic_RyanE: that has to do with design not the language
23:31.11dataw0lf_psychic_: websites, perhaps.  But there's a difference between websites and web based applications
23:31.18RyanE_psychic_: I think it's heavily INFLUENCED by the language
23:31.30_psychic_RyanE: Bad style? I think not.
23:31.37RyanEit's much easier to have your code revert to goo in PHP, imho.
23:31.44_psychic_dataw0lf: Yeah.... and most web apps are medium
23:31.53dataw0lfas much as I'd like to talk smack and rile macnewbold up, I'm out.
23:31.59dataw0lf:-)
23:32.01RyanEtchau
23:32.02dataw0lfcya guys tomorrow
23:32.07macnewboldhehe
23:32.09mindjujucya
23:32.09macnewboldcya dataw0lf
23:32.27_psychic_RyanE: I'm finishing up a Java school project, and its just as easy to nerf structured languages as it is to do PHP.
23:32.39_psychic_bad coders will not be stopped. ;)
23:32.46_psychic_regardless of the languages.
23:33.21RyanEwell, I'm no PHP basher, but I think it's pretty easy to uglify a project with PHP, even when it's a medium-sized project that only I worked on, professionally.
23:33.28RyanEand I'm no newbie to programming or PHP
23:33.49_psychic_Nor am I - I'm just saying that the language has little to no effect on coding styles.
23:34.00RyanEbut yeah, better discipline definitely helps.
23:34.04_psychic_Its like saying spanish people have bad grammar naturally.
23:34.19fungusIt is easier to uglify code with perl than PHP.  
23:34.25_psychic_RyanE: No.. more structure can make it worse for a bad coder. Ever seen a variable triple casted? ;)
23:34.26RyanEfungus: agreed
23:34.55fungusPHP is best for small to medium sized web apps.
23:35.55_psychic_Yeah, and I'd say 80% of the web falls under the good-to-use-for-PHP-because-its-medium-or-smaller category.
23:36.13_psychic_Thats a big category name - that's how everything fits under it so well. ;)
23:36.15fungusBut dataw0lf's idea of using Python for the backend and PHP for the templating is very interesting.
23:36.50_psychic_Mixed deployments cause your maintenance to grow exponentially in my experience. :/
23:37.15_psychic_People want to do the same with Java and PHP...
23:37.31fungusYeah, that makes sense.
23:38.18_psychic_I've started to wonder about scalability with other languages like Java anyway
23:38.29_psychic_PHP is stateless in a way - and that's more scalable
23:38.31_psychic_Java isn't
23:39.54RyanEHow is PHP more Stateless than Java for web apps?  HTTP is inherently stateless.  If Java uses HTTP as does PHP, how is it any less stateless?
23:40.14_psychic_Because Java keeps a stateful JVM running all the time - everything stays in memory
23:40.39_psychic_just thinking out loud, really. I'm not sure about it.
23:41.02RyanEI think you're talking a specific Java solution, not Java itself.
23:41.20RyanEthat's only because the load time for Java is pretty significant.
23:41.59RyanEApache also runs that way, but it doesn't make the HTTP any less stateless.
23:42.08_psychic_I'm not talking about HTTP
23:42.29_psychic_HTTP requests are forwarded to persistent Java objects (the Java is stateless, the HTTP isn't)
23:42.46_psychic_PHP itself is stateless - it loads, compiles, executes and quits.
23:42.58_psychic_Just wondering which model is more "scalable"
23:43.11_psychic_scalable != high performance
23:44.52macnewboldscalable in terms of what?
23:45.08_psychic_I dunno I guess ;)
23:45.44_psychic_"The ability to scale to support larger or smaller volumes of data and more or less users. The ability to increase or decrease size or capability in cost-effective increments with minimal impact on the unit cost of business and the procurement of additional services"
23:45.50RyanEonce you get to where you have to have multiple machines, they're somewhat equivalent.
23:46.37RyanEI mean, nothing is keeping you from scaling Java as well as PHP.  Costs may differ, but nothing keeps you from having Java scale as large or quickly as PHP.
23:47.01macnewboldso scalable in general - data volume, user volume, size/capability, etc
23:47.23_psychic_What about a single machine, I wonder?
23:47.25macnewboldright, I agree with RyanE - once you go to multiple servers, it's a mess no matter what
23:47.28RyanEI can't believe that I'm arguing *for* Java...  
23:47.35macnewboldon a single machine, php is more scalable, I'd say
23:47.39macnewboldcause it's got lower overhead
23:47.43RyanEI'd say PHP has a smaller footprint.
23:47.54RyanEdoesn't always mean it's 'more scaleable', even on a single machine.
23:48.12RyanEWhen you say JAVA, there are a TON of different technologies you can either include or not include.
23:48.24RyanEand they each have varying footprints and requirements.
23:48.25_psychic_JSP/J2EE
23:48.32_psychic_I
23:48.42macnewboldagreed
23:48.43RyanEyeah, but you're comparing apples and studebakers.
23:48.44_psychic_macnewbold: I agree
23:48.59macnewboldno, php is a ferrari
23:49.04_psychic_haha
23:49.04macnewboldonly seats two, but man is it fast
23:49.07macnewboldlooks good too
23:49.11RyanEPHP is the apple in this comparison
23:49.16macnewboldthough it's like a free ferrari
23:49.20macnewboldhehe
23:49.22RyanEsmall, simple, tasty.
23:49.22_psychic_Mmmm....
23:49.23macnewboldokay, apple
23:49.24macnewboldwhatever
23:49.39macnewboldyou can fit more apples on a single server than you can studebakers
23:49.52macnewboldjava doesn't do small scale well
23:49.54_psychic_But Java grabs a whole bunch of system resources at the start of the server ,and holds on to them. PHP takes what it needs and lets go. That's sounds like its more scalable to me.
23:49.56RyanEanyway, _psychic_, arguing that PHP is more scaleable than JSP/J2EE is kind of pointless, as they give you different functionality.
23:50.03macnewboldright
23:50.13RyanEdifferent resource allocation, not different scalability.
23:50.26_psychic_RyanE: no they don't - you can code almost the exact same functionality in both languages
23:50.33macnewboldfor what PHP is designed for, it does much better IMHO than the competition
23:50.38_psychic_the way resources are allocated *defines* scalability
23:50.42RyanEI think that for small / medium websites, they'll never use 90% of J2EE functionality, I agree.
23:50.57RyanEhowever, that's not it's target.  It's target is LARGE applications.
23:51.03RyanEthat's why you can't really compare them.
23:51.13RyanEand it's pointless to argue that one scales any better on ONE machine.
23:51.33RyanEOf course, I still DETEST JAVA.
23:52.19_psychic_ha
23:52.22_psychic_check this out
23:52.22_psychic_http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2003/10/15/php_scalability.html
23:53.36RyanEYeah, I've read that article.  
23:53.49_psychic_Interesting to think about, at least.
23:53.59RyanEbut again, you're not arguing Java vs. PHP, you're arguing J2EE stack vs. PHP.
23:54.13RyanEfor a smaller application, you wouldn't want (or need) to run J2EE.
23:54.23_psychic_or JSP/Servlets?
23:54.24_psychic_<PROTECTED>
23:54.39RyanEanyway, I'm done arguing for something that I don't really care for anyway.  :)
23:54.43_psychic_haha
23:55.08_psychic_didn't mean to be contrary - just wanted to explore the idea
23:55.20RyanEI do mean to be contrary.  It's what I do on Mondays.
23:56.02_psychic_haha
23:56.17_psychic_Is this the right room for an argument? ;)
23:56.24_psychic_</quote>
23:56.57RyanEOH, oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse.
23:57.12_psychic_bwaaaaaaaaa!
23:57.39RyanEAh yes, you want room 12A, Just along the corridor.
23:58.21_psychic_:)
23:58.28_psychic_Have a good evening guys - cya

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