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| 03:38.07 | *** join/#uphpu jsmith (~jsmith@smithfam.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 03:38.13 | jsmith | Wassup? |
| 03:39.25 | bigdog_ut | nada |
| 03:46.35 | bigdog_ut | what are you up too jsmith |
| 03:47.12 | mindjuju_ | yeah.... starting to wonder that myself |
| 03:47.35 | jsmith | So, my wife is an affiliate of an online store |
| 03:47.45 | bigdog_ut | k |
| 03:47.51 | bigdog_ut | so what free stuff are you getting me |
| 03:47.52 | jsmith | And she's been driving a lot of traffic to their site, and making some decent money along the way |
| 03:48.06 | jsmith | So today, she asked them for a list of all their products. |
| 03:48.27 | jsmith | And they sent her a giant (200MB) access database. |
| 03:48.37 | jsmith | But nobody there knew the password. |
| 03:48.47 | bigdog_ut | lol |
| 03:48.49 | bigdog_ut | access sucks |
| 03:48.55 | mindjuju_ | bigtime |
| 03:48.56 | jsmith | You're not kidding. |
| 03:49.28 | jsmith | Anyhoo, I'm trying to get all the data out of access and into PostgreSQL. |
| 03:49.38 | bigdog_ut | cool |
| 03:50.15 | jsmith | So I'm about half-way through setting up ODBC from my Linux box to my kid's Windows box (where I've already setup a DSN to the access file) |
| 03:50.26 | bigdog_ut | lol |
| 03:50.39 | bigdog_ut | u need some data junction my friend |
| 03:50.46 | jsmith | Data junction? |
| 03:50.51 | bigdog_ut | lol |
| 03:50.56 | bigdog_ut | best tool i have every used |
| 03:51.03 | jsmith | Oh, and did I mention that I guessed the password on the first try? |
| 03:51.34 | mindjuju_ | your kidding! |
| 03:51.49 | jsmith | Nope. |
| 03:52.06 | mindjuju_ | i was actually going to recommend a free prog i thought could do it, but since you got it... |
| 03:52.10 | mindjuju_ | craziness! |
| 03:52.22 | mindjuju_ | let me guess, was it the word password? or the company name? |
| 03:52.22 | jsmith | I popped open the .mdb file in a hex editor, and by doing a little math was able to figure out the first two letters. |
| 03:52.36 | wps | jsmith |
| 03:52.39 | wps | you rock |
| 03:52.41 | jsmith | It was a tad bit tedious, so I took it upon myself to guess. |
| 03:52.59 | jsmith | Tada! |
| 03:53.12 | wps | you definitely get the hacker award for the evening |
| 03:53.19 | jsmith | bigdog_ut: So, how much am I gonna have to shell out for Data Junction? |
| 03:53.26 | bigdog_ut | lol |
| 03:53.28 | bigdog_ut | too much |
| 03:53.39 | bigdog_ut | but they are doing some cool things with pgsql |
| 03:54.07 | jsmith | Sounds like it... |
| 03:54.10 | jsmith | ... but I'm cheap. |
| 03:54.38 | jsmith | So, it's been years since I've mucked around with ODBC -- what are my chances of getting right the first time? |
| 03:55.18 | bigdog_ut | lol it is not that hard...i have done it tons |
| 03:55.40 | bigdog_ut | data junction allows you to take data from one place, manpulate it and then put it somewhere else |
| 03:56.00 | bigdog_ut | we did it with thousands of access dbs to migrate them to oracle |
| 03:56.08 | bigdog_ut | like you can go from ldap to oracle db |
| 03:56.16 | bigdog_ut | or edi file to pgsql |
| 03:56.25 | bigdog_ut | or binary file to oracle or xml |
| 03:57.08 | jsmith | Cool... sound like just what I need tonight. |
| 03:57.15 | bigdog_ut | yeah |
| 03:57.59 | jsmith | Too bad you don't have a copy to send me :-) |
| 03:59.54 | mindjuju_ | and beware the cheap ones, they aren't worth it. |
| 04:00.24 | mindjuju_ | the dev guy before me had crap loads of wrong data types when he used intelligent converters to do the trick |
| 04:00.35 | mindjuju_ | course, it could have been cause he was a goofus and didn't do it right too |
| 04:01.13 | *** join/#uphpu jmul (~t6@1Cust4552.an4.den10.da.uu.net) |
| 04:08.43 | bigdog_ut | yeah |
| 04:10.07 | jsmith | bigdog_ut: Mind giving me some pointers on setting up my /etc/odbcinst.ini file? |
| 04:10.36 | jsmith | bigdog_ut: I know I've got to point it at the right driver, but I don't remember which one to use for a remote Windows DSN. |
| 04:10.51 | bigdog_ut | oh you are going that way |
| 04:10.57 | bigdog_ut | i would do windows to pgsql |
| 04:11.09 | bigdog_ut | download the odbc driver from pgsql website and set it up |
| 04:12.20 | jsmith | OK... |
| 04:12.33 | jsmith | And then write a program on Windows to dump it that way? |
| 04:13.01 | jsmith | If I'm going to do that, why not just write a PHP program in windows that dumps it straight into PostgreSQL? |
| 04:13.39 | bigdog_ut | u want to take data from access to pgsql right? |
| 04:13.45 | jsmith | Yes |
| 04:14.02 | bigdog_ut | k then you dont need odbc |
| 04:14.15 | bigdog_ut | just dump the access data to a csv file |
| 04:14.27 | jsmith | How do I do that, without Access? |
| 04:14.28 | bigdog_ut | and then import the file or use php to put it in pgsql |
| 04:14.37 | bigdog_ut | excel |
| 04:14.59 | bigdog_ut | excel |
| 04:15.05 | jsmith | excel will only get the first 65000 rows per table |
| 04:15.09 | jsmith | Been there, tried that. |
| 04:15.18 | bigdog_ut | oh crap...that is right |
| 04:15.22 | mindjuju_ | if not security breach, you can send it my way and I can csv it for you |
| 04:15.46 | jsmith | mindjuju_: Oh, it's a security breach... I'm sure they've got all kinds of things in the database that they shouldn't have given me. |
| 04:15.56 | bigdog_ut | lol |
| 04:16.01 | jsmith | mindjuju_: I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't have all their order info, etc. |
| 04:16.14 | jsmith | mindjuju_: I've already found all their subscriber info |
| 04:16.19 | bigdog_ut | okay jsmith let me see about odbc on linux |
| 04:16.25 | mindjuju_ | there is a free access reader offered by MS, i don't know if it will allow you to save to different formats though |
| 04:16.33 | jsmith | It's too bad I'm so honest. |
| 04:16.41 | mindjuju_ | l'm looking for the documenation on the reader |
| 04:16.57 | bigdog_ut | so you have unixodbc installed jsmith? |
| 04:18.07 | jsmith | Yup |
| 04:18.14 | jsmith | And freetds, if it helps |
| 04:18.28 | jsmith | (which, as I remember, talks directly to SQL server, not over ODBC) |
| 04:19.42 | bigdog_ut | u might need the easysoft driver for ms access |
| 04:20.41 | jsmith | I'll just write PHP code on Windows then. |
| 04:20.46 | jsmith | I hate the easysoft stuff. |
| 04:20.49 | jsmith | It sucks. |
| 04:20.55 | bigdog_ut | eyah |
| 04:20.56 | jsmith | Well, at least it did four years ago. |
| 04:21.10 | jsmith | Been there, done that, still have the scars. |
| 04:21.29 | jsmith | (Connection to SQL Server 2000 on a windows box from PHP on a Solaris 2.6 box) |
| 04:29.43 | mindjuju_ | sorry bout the access viewer. turns out there isn't one. it was an excel viewer that is offered |
| 04:29.45 | mindjuju_ | sorry |
| 04:30.15 | mindjuju_ | though i did find something of interest. seems that a bunch of people are using postgreSQL / Access Hybrids |
| 04:30.18 | mindjuju_ | http://techdocs.postgresql.org/v2/Guides/Using%20Microsoft%20Access%20with%20PostgreSQL/view |
| 04:30.49 | mindjuju_ | in that faq on the postgresql site, they mention an app that can open access and port the data to XML |
| 04:30.56 | mindjuju_ | the app is called ODBCSocketServer |
| 04:31.21 | jsmith | That's alright, I'll just pull it from ODBC into Postgresql by running a php script on the windows box |
| 04:47.25 | jmul | anyone know of a site that contains (preferrably smaller) databases in different formats (access, sql etc) that have bogus information in them? wanting to play with extraction and porting to different formats. If you don't know if a site, what key words would I use to do a search like this? |
| 04:48.30 | mindjuju_ | http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=c6661372-8dbe-422b-8676-c632d66c529c&DisplayLang=en |
| 04:50.00 | mindjuju_ | it downloads as an exe file that has a eula attached to it. doesn't install anything, you just agree to the eula then it gives you the mdb file |
| 04:50.06 | jsmith | jmul: Try the different database benchmarks, like mysql-bench |
| 04:50.31 | jsmith | jmul: It has the "wisconsin" database, and I'm sure postgresql-bench has other data as well |
| 04:53.09 | jmul | thanks. I wasn't thinking about northwind...is there a sql version to it or just .mdb? |
| 04:53.14 | jmul | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:53.53 | mindjuju_ | it's just an mdb file that dumps out. it's written to access 2k |
| 04:54.18 | mindjuju_ | so if you open in access 2k3, it will want to translate it to 2k3 |
| 04:54.34 | mindjuju_ | not sure if there is one for MSDE |
| 04:54.58 | jmul | cool. maybe I could give access2mysql a shot now...see how northwind does with that conversion. |
| 04:57.04 | mindjuju_ | i just did that port like maybe 3 months ago. the best results i saw were through ODBC connection. ODBC the access database and pull the data through phpMyadmin |
| 04:57.39 | mindjuju_ | but if you find an app that works well, let us know, that kind of knowledge always comes in handy |
| 05:01.59 | jmul | i know i had an older version of access2mysql...just have to find it. current version is $55 |
| 05:02.33 | mindjuju_ | you know, off the cuff i'm going to say not worth it.... it *seems* like mysql offers a freebie |
| 05:03.14 | *** join/#uphpu dataw0lf- (~dataw0lf@c-24-10-173-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 05:03.25 | jmul | yeah because it seems like the one i downloaded a long time ago I didn't have to find a crack for |
| 05:03.30 | jmul | heh |
| 05:03.45 | dataw0lf- | evenin gents |
| 05:03.52 | dataw0lf- | and any ladies who might be on. |
| 05:04.03 | jmul | hey dataw0lf- |
| 05:04.04 | mindjuju_ | i think this is the freebie |
| 05:04.05 | mindjuju_ | http://dev.mysql.com/downloads/migration-toolkit/1.0.html |
| 05:04.09 | jsmith | dataw0lf! |
| 05:04.10 | dataw0lf- | sup jmul |
| 05:04.13 | dataw0lf- | sup jsmith |
| 05:04.16 | dataw0lf- | mindjuju_ |
| 05:04.26 | mindjuju_ | sup D dub |
| 05:04.29 | dataw0lf- | not much |
| 05:04.42 | jsmith | dataw0lf-: I'm teaching everyone here how not to protect your critical business information in Access. |
| 05:05.00 | dataw0lf- | jsmith: by switching to something else other than Jet ? ;] |
| 05:06.02 | mindjuju_ | k, your not going to believe this, but i was astounded about the ebonics, but quickly repressed the news because of where I think the US is going by the degradation of education |
| 05:06.21 | dataw0lf- | mindjuju_: pretty ridiculous, no? |
| 05:06.31 | mindjuju_ | frickin' scarey if you ask me |
| 05:07.08 | dataw0lf- | yeah, well, that's the US for you. |
| 05:07.16 | jmul | mindjuju_: due to my limited knowledge of everything database, what do you think of this one? http://www.bullzip.com/products/msa2mys/info.php |
| 05:07.28 | mindjuju_ | ugh, but that just makes me sick in general. i say we cut to the chase and make English the official language of the US. When I lived in Mexico, nobody bothered to make forms in English. And when I lived in China, nothing was in English |
| 05:08.58 | jmul | do you have a link to that ebonics info in Oakland? |
| 05:09.11 | dataw0lf- | Um, lemme check for you man. |
| 05:09.41 | jmul | i could search but thought you had it in your recent browser history or something |
| 05:10.00 | dataw0lf- | jsmith: hehe |
| 05:10.06 | dataw0lf- | jmul: oh, no, that was at work. |
| 05:10.15 | dataw0lf- | so just search ;) |
| 05:10.33 | jmul | dataw0lf- : ok... thanks anyway |
| 05:10.37 | jmul | heh |
| 05:10.55 | dataw0lf- | ;] |
| 05:10.56 | jmul | jsmith: I came at the end of your conversation, what access file do you have? |
| 05:11.48 | jmul | or rather whose access database do you have? |
| 05:12.02 | jmul | or who's |
| 05:12.15 | mindjuju_ | well, you can't be free on the price, on the other hand, you get what you pay for. if you do use this app, and it is for a production enviroment, i would check everything very carefully |
| 05:12.17 | dataw0lf- | all I know is that writing a script to export Jet dbs to postgres properly sux |
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| 05:12.23 | mindjuju_ | datatype, data |
| 05:12.50 | dataw0lf- | omgz I've haxed tierra's network and am accessing le irc from there! |
| 05:13.04 | dataw0lf- | :) |
| 05:13.15 | mindjuju_ | nice! |
| 05:13.33 | jmul | mindjuju_ : ok.. well... no it wouldn't be on production data.... right now it's for learning purposes |
| 05:13.49 | dataw0lf- | mindjuju_: so when you going to learn python, bro? |
| 05:14.44 | jsmith | bigdog_ut: OK, I've got the data moved over :-) |
| 05:15.05 | dataw0lf- | jsmith: where you moving the data to? |
| 05:15.19 | jmul | i was talking to a guy that works at THE local isp and he doesn't like python because he says it forces you to use "white space" |
| 05:15.28 | dataw0lf- | XMission? |
| 05:15.34 | dataw0lf- | was it LD ? |
| 05:15.45 | jmul | me? no, I'm in southern colorado |
| 05:15.47 | dataw0lf- | because he's about 50 feet away, if he said that I'm going to go kick him in the back of the head |
| 05:15.48 | jmul | heh |
| 05:15.50 | dataw0lf- | oh, sorry. |
| 05:15.56 | dataw0lf- | always forget that, dude. |
| 05:16.03 | jmul | no prob |
| 05:16.03 | jsmith | dataw0lf-: PostgreSQL |
| 05:16.19 | jmul | so there is a guy at xmission that you'd like to kick in the head? |
| 05:16.25 | jmul | i used xmission when I lived there |
| 05:17.35 | jsmith | Well, I'm done for the night -- y'all take it easy... |
| 05:17.38 | mindjuju_ | funny you bring up python, i was just reading something on python and ruby saying it was the greatest thing, Including sliced bread |
| 05:17.49 | mindjuju_ | s/it/both |
| 05:18.25 | dataw0lf- | jmul: no, he's just a neighbor and friend. |
| 05:18.32 | jmul | oh ok |
| 05:18.33 | dataw0lf- | mindjuju: Python > * |
| 05:18.48 | jmul | mindjuju_ : was it an online article? |
| 05:19.02 | dataw0lf- | jmul: next time someone says that (i.e., enforced whitespace sucks) say 'Well, C makes me use braces and semicolons!' |
| 05:19.06 | mindjuju_ | it was actually, and I just read it like 2 or 3 days ago |
| 05:19.12 | dataw0lf- | ENFORCED BRACES OH NOES |
| 05:19.54 | jmul | dataw0lf-: ok... wasn't sure what to say after his comment |
| 05:20.02 | jmul | seemed pretty lame though |
| 05:20.21 | dataw0lf- | jmul: seriously, I haven't seen many arguments past that from (usually) perl guys. |
| 05:20.41 | jmul | so what if the code looks organized...thats what I was thinking anyway |
| 05:20.54 | dataw0lf- | when a language isn't scared to borrow the best pieces from both OOP and functional languages, and does it right, well, it happens. |
| 05:20.58 | jmul | yeah....he likes perl |
| 05:21.03 | dataw0lf- | of course he does. |
| 05:21.11 | dataw0lf- | Just bring up Perl 6 and let him hurt himself on that. |
| 05:21.25 | dataw0lf- | eine moment, going for a cig |
| 05:21.55 | jmul | mindjuju_ : if you come across that article....I'd like to read it |
| 05:22.04 | jmul | :) |
| 05:22.20 | mindjuju_ | about Python? |
| 05:22.23 | jmul | yeah |
| 05:22.43 | mindjuju_ | i just happen to be running google desktop, let me see if i can find it supa quick |
| 05:23.26 | jmul | thanks |
| 05:24.57 | mindjuju_ | pulling out everything of interest that it sees... here something on if PERL is still relavent today |
| 05:24.57 | mindjuju_ | http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/oreilly/ask_tim/2004/perl_0707.html |
| 05:25.30 | jmul | dataw0lf-: I should ask that guy, the next time I see him, if he's running gentoo :x just kidding bigdog_ut. |
| 05:26.49 | jmul | mindjuju_ : cool thanks, if you can't find that specific article ... don't waste anymore time searching. I'm sure I can search for others |
| 05:28.02 | mindjuju_ | you know what, now that i think about it, i'm almost positive it was an article on o'reilly's website |
| 05:28.54 | dataw0lf- | jmul: most people like Perl nowadays because 1) they're old and don't want to learn another language, which is semi respectable, lord knows I'm relatively young and don't want to or 2) they're a newbie and want to be 1337 |
| 05:29.11 | dataw0lf- | have either of you read ESR's Python article? |
| 05:29.15 | dataw0lf- | it's required reading. |
| 05:29.24 | mindjuju_ | i found it. it was actually a pdf |
| 05:29.24 | mindjuju_ | http://python.oreilly.com/news/python_success_stories.pdf |
| 05:29.40 | mindjuju_ | Python is widely admired for its simplicity |
| 05:29.40 | mindjuju_ | and elegance. However, these undeniable |
| 05:29.40 | mindjuju_ | qualities must not overshadow Python’s |
| 05:29.40 | mindjuju_ | usefulness: with Python, you *can get |
| 05:29.40 | mindjuju_ | the job done*! |
| 05:29.40 | mindjuju_ | Python is highly scalable– |
| 05:29.41 | jmul | is there a required python reading list posted somewhere that I'm missing? |
| 05:30.02 | mindjuju_ | Python is highly scalable–suitable for large |
| 05:30.02 | mindjuju_ | projects as well as for small ones, excellent |
| 05:30.02 | mindjuju_ | for beginners yet superb for experts. |
| 05:30.05 | dataw0lf- | No, but this article: |
| 05:30.06 | dataw0lf- | http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/3882 |
| 05:30.13 | dataw0lf- | Is the quintessential 'Perl versus Python' |
| 05:30.19 | dataw0lf- | by Eric S. Raymond, no less. |
| 05:30.23 | dataw0lf- | So it carries some weight. |
| 05:30.31 | jmul | cool |
| 05:30.45 | dataw0lf- | The thing about Python that I really love is that you, once you learn it, you don't fight with it. |
| 05:31.08 | jmul | mindjuju_ : this is the one you mentioned earlier that talked about ruby and python? |
| 05:31.13 | dataw0lf- | Python _assists_ you in creating elegant, great code, rather than alot of other languages, that hinder you. |
| 05:31.36 | dataw0lf- | I think there are some cool things about Ruby, but it's too Perlesque for my tastes. |
| 05:32.08 | dataw0lf- | explicit scope with ridiculous characters, for example. |
| 05:32.15 | dataw0lf- | I despise that. |
| 05:32.19 | mindjuju_ | you know what, now that i'm lookin over it, it doesn't mention ruby, i remember the article i read mentioning ruby. but i read this one too on python |
| 05:32.44 | mindjuju_ | not to long ago, D dub was preaching the benefits of python so i did a little research to see if it was everything D dub said |
| 05:32.54 | dataw0lf- | Python is the only interpreted language I'd recommend as a first language. |
| 05:32.59 | mindjuju_ | If ILM runs python, it doesn't sound to shabby |
| 05:33.19 | dataw0lf- | mindjuju: write a script in it. |
| 05:33.28 | dataw0lf- | some command line script that you might need. |
| 05:33.47 | dataw0lf- | I guarantee you'll begin to love it almost immediately. |
| 05:34.23 | mindjuju_ | what i need to do is start blocking out some time to start reading on it, then find the right app to start coding |
| 05:34.39 | jmul | ...even though i'm trying to learn it now |
| 05:34.39 | dataw0lf- | I mean [for x in something if something > somethingelse] <-- list comprehensions are enough to make you almost cry with joy |
| 05:35.00 | dataw0lf- | mindjuju_: I assume you know of diveintopython.org |
| 05:35.17 | mindjuju_ | nope, didn't find that one |
| 05:35.20 | mindjuju_ | pulling it up now |
| 05:35.40 | dataw0lf- | Free book for experienced programmers eager to learn Python. |
| 05:35.46 | jmul | i've choosen to read this first.... http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/thinkCSpy/ |
| 05:35.55 | dataw0lf- | jmul: That's another good one. |
| 05:35.58 | jmul | on chapter 4 now |
| 05:36.10 | dataw0lf- | I'd suggest Dive Into Python as something to read in tandem, perhaps. |
| 05:36.13 | dataw0lf- | Very well written. |
| 05:36.39 | dataw0lf- | I've been programming in Python extensively for several years, and the excitement, for me, never dies. |
| 05:37.29 | jmul | dataw0lf-: how long have you been programming....interpreted languages or otherwise? |
| 05:37.50 | dataw0lf- | jmul: Hm, about 10 years give or take a couple months. |
| 05:38.24 | dataw0lf- | C being my first language. |
| 05:38.41 | jmul | C scared me the one time I tried to read it |
| 05:38.54 | dataw0lf- | I didn't know any better, otherwise it probably would've scared me too ;) |
| 05:39.02 | dataw0lf- | But I started right (with the K&R) |
| 05:39.20 | jmul | K&R? |
| 05:39.27 | dataw0lf- | Kernighan and Ritchie |
| 05:39.46 | jmul | sounds ..... almost familiar |
| 05:39.57 | dataw0lf- | 'The C Programming Language' |
| 05:40.12 | dataw0lf- | Generally considered to be the absolute best C programming book ever. |
| 05:40.29 | dataw0lf- | I have the German edition, even ;) |
| 05:41.13 | jmul | hmm... seems like i've seen that on a book shelf..... when I used to be a security guard at Novell. |
| 05:41.21 | dataw0lf- | It's called the K&R, affectionately, because the authors are revered and it's, well, just the K&R |
| 05:41.35 | dataw0lf- | probably did, those Novell guys are pretty smart. |
| 05:41.54 | dataw0lf- | I can give you my list of 'Absolute Must Reads' quick if you want |
| 05:42.45 | jmul | sure... might be a bit before I get to them... i've got 3 on my list now |
| 05:44.52 | dataw0lf- | The Mythical Man-Month, The Pragmatic Programmer, The K&R, Beginning Linux Programming (Wrox publishing), The Linux Administration Handbook, TCP/IP Network Administration, Algorithms in C++ Parts 1-4, Dive Into Python |
| 05:45.01 | dataw0lf- | hm. |
| 05:45.04 | dataw0lf- | I'm forgetting something. |
| 05:45.25 | dataw0lf- | Design Patterns |
| 05:45.59 | dataw0lf- | there are, of course, many useful others, but those are MUST READS by any serious programmer. |
| 05:46.09 | dataw0lf- | Perhaps minus Dive Into Python |
| 05:46.37 | dataw0lf- | oh, and Unix Network Programming |
| 05:46.41 | dataw0lf- | duh |
| 05:46.44 | jmul | all but dive into python are books right?... meaning not online books. |
| 05:46.46 | dataw0lf- | Yeah, those are the ones |
| 05:46.52 | dataw0lf- | jmul: correct. |
| 05:47.22 | jmul | sorry... just asking |
| 05:47.31 | dataw0lf- | If you're at all serious about becoming a Linux/Unix administrator The Linux Administration Handbook and TCP/IP Network Administration are musts. |
| 05:47.41 | jmul | I have heard of a few of those |
| 05:47.44 | dataw0lf- | jmul: wasn't trying to be offensive, sorry if I came off that way. |
| 05:48.16 | dataw0lf- | oh, heh, I said duh because I forgot Unix Network Programming |
| 05:48.22 | dataw0lf- | I was duhing myself |
| 05:50.13 | jmul | dataw0lf-: no prob. |
| 05:51.06 | mindjuju_ | well, i probably should pick up a couple and plow through them... i wanted to have everything off my plate by August cause i wanted to start some opencourseware |
| 05:51.51 | jmul | dataw0lf- : eco and bigdog were talking a few nights back and they were saying that you swore by the Linux Administration and Unix Administration books. |
| 05:52.03 | mindjuju_ | i remember them saying that |
| 05:52.41 | mindjuju_ | D dub, have you seen some of the opencourseware stuff? |
| 05:53.05 | dataw0lf- | jmul: yeah, I definitely do swear by it. |
| 05:53.10 | dataw0lf- | mindjuju_: vaguely remember it. |
| 05:53.38 | mindjuju_ | MIT courses available to public including textbooks - you don't get MIT credit, but you can take the class |
| 05:53.54 | mindjuju_ | This is one of the classes i really wanted to take |
| 05:53.55 | mindjuju_ | http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Electrical-Engineering-and-Computer-Science/6-001Structure-and-Interpretation-of-Computer-ProgramsFall2002/CourseHome/index.htm |
| 05:54.13 | dataw0lf- | sounds cool. |
| 05:54.24 | dataw0lf- | but don't know how attractive CS courses are to me anymore. |
| 05:55.42 | dataw0lf- | if you want to be a competent administrator, jmul, I'd highly suggest learning TCP/IP thoroughly, including packet structure, as well as the OSI layers. A good 'practical' way to do so would be to jump into iptables and just learn it. |
| 05:55.57 | dataw0lf- | or any sort of netfilter for that matter. |
| 05:56.14 | dataw0lf- | but iptables is the most powerful that's easily accessible |
| 05:57.04 | cycokilr | and there's plenty of info on the web as well regarding iptables.. |
| 05:57.52 | dataw0lf- | I'd like to do a more thorough introduction to iptables, perhaps outside of UPHPU |
| 05:58.42 | cycokilr | that would be cool man.. there's plenty that i don't know that i wouldn't mind learning.. |
| 05:58.48 | dataw0lf- | I was talking to the bigdog about starting up some sort of Linux training company, akin to Guru Labs, with, of course, the requisite consulting services as well. |
| 05:59.03 | mindjuju_ | funny you say that, i was wanting to sneak in a week or so of study on ARP |
| 05:59.05 | dataw0lf- | but I don't know how seriously people would take a 23 year old tattooed punk like myself heh. |
| 05:59.17 | dataw0lf- | mindjuju: I know ARP quite well. |
| 05:59.41 | cycokilr | i'd be way into some training along those lines guys.. |
| 05:59.51 | cycokilr | and i could help out wherever needed.. |
| 06:00.06 | dataw0lf- | cycokilr: it was more of a 'future' plan, perhaps in a couple years. |
| 06:00.07 | jmul | thanks for the tips. |
| 06:00.20 | dataw0lf- | But, again, doubt if I'm professional enough to be taken seriously. |
| 06:00.28 | mindjuju_ | same here. i was kicking around the program Cain /(abel) and found out about ARP and ARP poisoning and got really interested |
| 06:00.38 | dataw0lf- | mindjuju: some good stuff. |
| 06:00.45 | cycokilr | dataw0lf: i gotcha man.. but i'm thinking mainly of some presentation on some of the basics, maybe up to intermediate.. |
| 06:01.13 | mindjuju_ | yeah, aren't you going to defcon and all? |
| 06:01.27 | cycokilr | moi? or dataw0lf? |
| 06:01.35 | dataw0lf- | mindjuju_: yeah, I am ;) |
| 06:01.39 | mindjuju_ | dataw0lf is i thought, yeah |
| 06:01.48 | dataw0lf- | cycokilr: he was making a snide comment about my professionalism ;) |
| 06:01.52 | cycokilr | i'm probably not.. too poor.. |
| 06:01.59 | cycokilr | ahh.. gotcha.. |
| 06:02.07 | cycokilr | whatever man.. i take you seriously.. |
| 06:02.16 | dataw0lf- | cycokilr: well, I appreciate that. |
| 06:02.16 | mindjuju_ | yeah, i'm saying since you are going to defcon, you should give some training |
| 06:02.17 | cycokilr | unless you're playing pool.. ;-) |
| 06:02.37 | cycokilr | heh.. |
| 06:02.54 | dataw0lf- | Maybe whomever was interested, we could get together for a more personal presentation, rather than a large room setting. |
| 06:03.04 | dataw0lf- | Just chilling, with a small projector. |
| 06:03.16 | mindjuju_ | too bad we can't have a study session on internet security, then a lan party with some Halo 2 action |
| 06:03.24 | dataw0lf- | mindjuju_: why couldn't we? |
| 06:03.28 | cycokilr | that would be cool.. keep me on the list for that man.. and if i can help out at all, i'm cool with that.. |
| 06:03.33 | dataw0lf- | cycokilr: word. |
| 06:03.42 | dataw0lf- | mindjuju_: pfft. |
| 06:03.50 | cycokilr | alright.. back to constantine.. later kids.. |
| 06:03.57 | cycokilr | i mean, fellow linux zealots.. |
| 06:03.59 | mindjuju_ | laters |
| 06:04.00 | dataw0lf- | cycokilr: cya. |
| 06:04.56 | dataw0lf- | network security is where the monies are at. |
| 06:05.01 | dataw0lf- | which I got more contracts for that. |
| 06:05.04 | dataw0lf- | ugh |
| 06:05.07 | dataw0lf- | s/which/wish |
| 06:05.26 | dataw0lf- | but you have to be local, and usually they only hire people connected to inhouse reps. |
| 06:05.30 | mindjuju_ | agreed... but if we do it right, you'll need to give us reading assignments before hand so that we all have some basics down |
| 06:05.41 | dataw0lf- | not a bad idea. |
| 06:06.08 | mindjuju_ | give it a think, if you have the time, i would be way interested |
| 06:06.22 | dataw0lf- | I will. |
| 06:06.51 | dataw0lf- | we could probably do it at my place. |
| 06:07.14 | dataw0lf- | I'll throw together an outline and then hand out references for people to read up on. |
| 06:07.59 | mindjuju_ | exactly |
| 06:08.59 | greygnome | Sounds great. I've got my xbox that I can bring if we need more units for a Halo 2 party. |
| 06:09.32 | dataw0lf- | yeah, I think everyone / almost everyone would have to bring a TV, no? |
| 06:09.58 | mindjuju_ | yup, i've got a small 13 inch i was planning on packing |
| 06:10.09 | dataw0lf- | word. |
| 06:10.23 | mindjuju_ | you got a switch or would you need one brought? |
| 06:10.25 | jmul | people...other than locals? I know I couldn't participate or contribute but I'd like good references to read up on. |
| 06:10.59 | dataw0lf- | jmul: I could certainly do that, and give you the presentation after I give it, in PDF or Impress format. |
| 06:11.13 | jmul | yes...that would be cool |
| 06:11.26 | dataw0lf- | mindjuju: pretty sure we got one. |
| 06:18.15 | jmul | dataw0lf- : let me know if/when you start the informal training. since i'm not familiar with Impress format, pdf will do just fine. :) |
| 06:20.56 | dataw0lf- | jmul: it's the presentation format of OO.o |
| 06:26.20 | mindjuju_ | well, i'm going to catch some ZZZ and then come in early tomorrow, see ya Gents |
| 06:31.42 | dataw0lf- | night mindjuju_ |
| 06:32.07 | *** part/#uphpu dataw0lf- (~dataw0lf@c-24-10-173-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
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| 14:14.16 | *** join/#uphpu wps (~wade@66.237.80.85) |
| 14:14.18 | *** mode/#uphpu [+o wps] by ChanServ |
| 14:14.49 | *** join/#uphpu phpguy (~bigdog@shylonhunter.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 14:15.26 | phpguy | mornin all |
| 21:13.15 | *** join/#uphpu jbot (ibot@apt.bot.TimRiker.active.supporter.pdpc) |
| 21:13.15 | *** topic/#uphpu is Next meeting: BBQ, Friday Aug. 12, 7pm | Utah PHP User Group | http://www.uphpu.org |
| 21:14.16 | fungus | ~welcome jbot |
| 21:14.16 | jbot | jbot, Sup yo? |
| 21:15.47 | wps | he's back! |
| 21:16.14 | wps | ~wedgy my vhost headache |
| 21:16.24 | wps | ~wedgie my vhost headache |
| 21:16.25 | jbot | ACTION hangs my vhost headache from the flag pole by his underwear |
| 21:16.35 | wps | ~melvin my vhost headache |
| 21:16.35 | jbot | ACTION pulls my vhost headache underwear up to the ceiling...and smiles |
| 21:18.10 | jmul|w | feel better now wps? hehe |
| 21:18.34 | wps | much, yes, thank you |
| 21:26.02 | mindjuju | jbot's back! |
| 21:26.07 | mindjuju | ~bdhit fungus |
| 21:26.07 | jbot | ACTION leaps to Sunrise Claw of the Cruel Snake on fungus |
| 21:27.20 | fungus | ~frenchtaunt mindjuju |
| 21:27.20 | jbot | ACTION summons the french taunter! You tiny-brained wipers of other people's bottoms! |
| 21:27.41 | mindjuju | ~shakespeare fungus |
| 21:27.41 | jbot | ACTION stands up and quotes Shakespeare: fungus - Thou impertinent elf-skinned scullian! |
| 21:28.14 | jsmith | ~montypython fungus |
| 21:28.23 | jsmith | Gee -- that's no fun... |
| 21:28.32 | mindjuju | jsmith, try frenchassault |
| 21:28.34 | fungus | ~lart mindjuju |
| 21:28.46 | fungus | ~whaleslap mindjuju |
| 21:28.46 | jbot | ACTION slaps mindjuju upside and over the head with one freakishly huge killer whale named hugh |
| 21:28.52 | mindjuju | ~tagteam fungus |
| 21:28.52 | jbot | ACTION climbs to the top rope of the ring and launches himself at fungus! mindjuju slams fungus with a folding chair! fungus is down for the count! |
| 21:29.38 | mindjuju | ~zombify fungus |
| 21:29.38 | jbot | ACTION summons Bill Gates who materializes in front of fungus and using a Windows 3.11 diskette zombifiez fungus! fungus wonders off in a daze slobering |
| 21:30.20 | fungus | ~vomit mindjuju |
| 21:30.49 | mindjuju | ~boothead fungus |
| 21:30.49 | jbot | ACTION calls the mighty tae-kwon-leep master! fungus, boot to the head! |
| 21:33.28 | fungus | ~lobotomy mindjuju |
| 21:33.28 | jbot | ACTION pulls out a rusty saw to perform a lobotomy on mindjuju |
| 21:33.59 | mindjuju | ~oreilly fungus |
| 21:33.59 | jbot | ACTION releases bill o'reilly from his basement cell! Sic 'em boy! fungus is left in tatters... |
| 21:44.44 | macnewbold | ~dwhit mindjuju |
| 21:44.44 | jbot | ACTION and macnewbold demonstrates the Iron Two Killers Hand on mindjuju's forehead |
| 21:44.59 | macnewbold | ~el_gaucho is <reply> see bigdog_ut |
| 21:44.59 | jbot | macnewbold: okay |
| 21:45.09 | mindjuju | ~wiseguy macnewbold |
| 21:45.09 | jbot | ACTION runs up to macnewbold and pokes macnewbold in the eyes! |
| 21:45.15 | macnewbold | ~stooge mindjuju |
| 21:45.25 | mindjuju | ~nyuk macnewbold |
| 21:45.25 | jbot | ACTION grabs macnewbold nose and hammers it with his other hand! |
| 21:45.28 | macnewbold | ~nyuk jbot |
| 21:45.28 | jbot | ACTION grabs jbot nose and hammers it with his other hand! |
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| 21:59.40 | *** mode/#uphpu [+o el_gaucho] by ChanServ |
| 22:01.56 | macnewbold | ~lart el_gaucho's channel memo |
| 22:02.11 | macnewbold | ~lart el_gaucho for his silly spamming tactics |
| 22:03.05 | el_gaucho | "i am el gaucho!!!" |
| 22:05.14 | jmul|w | dataw0lf: you around? |
| 22:06.03 | jmul|w | should put something on jbot inigo montoya'ish |
| 22:06.22 | el_gaucho | ~melvin jmul|w |
| 22:06.22 | jbot | ACTION pulls jmul|w underwear up to the ceiling...and smiles |
| 22:07.12 | dataw0lf | jmul|w: wazzup |
| 22:07.42 | macnewbold | inigo montoya rocks |
| 22:07.54 | jmul|w | dataw0lf: maybe I'm getting ahead of myself but I'm reading in chapter 3 of diveintopython where it's talking about importing modules...does the import statement take up memory at all? or should I not worry about that at this point in my learning? |
| 22:08.10 | macnewbold | we do need a bunch of princess bride quotes, like mindjuju did for monty python. |
| 22:08.44 | macnewbold | that's probably a "don't worry about it" - don't go nuts, but if you need it, you need it, so use it |
| 22:08.46 | jmul|w | yeah...that would be cool |
| 22:08.57 | macnewbold | optimize for speed/memory/etc if it's a problem |
| 22:09.50 | dataw0lf | jmul|w: import statements are pretty well optimized. |
| 22:10.04 | dataw0lf | what you don't want to do is import somewhere in your script where it's going to be looped over, say, 1000 times. |
| 22:10.19 | dataw0lf | because, even though it can only be imported ONCE, it'll still take up your precious memory. |
| 22:10.31 | dataw0lf | More importantly to pay attention to is namespace and scope issues. |
| 22:10.37 | dataw0lf | e.g., from import statements and such. |
| 22:11.18 | jmul|w | ok thanks |
| 22:13.14 | dataw0lf | np |
| 22:13.21 | jmul|w | as I'm going through this, my mind revisits my C++ class from time to time and my instructors voice telling us to start with the end in mind. he even gave us an exercise to show how easy it is to freeze up the computer by taking up too much memory. |
| 22:15.12 | jmul|w | one way I remember him telling us about was what you mentioned....looping something a lot of times |
| 22:42.13 | mindjuju | getting a little roundy - maybe the pacific isn't big enough for the two of us? |
| 22:42.14 | mindjuju | http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050721/ap_on_re_as/china_us_taiwan |
| 22:58.07 | dataw0lf | god, let em have Taiwan. |
| 22:59.12 | eco|w | int main(void) { while(true) new char; } |
| 22:59.26 | mindjuju | you know that will never happen though. Taiwan Strait Resolution Act |
| 23:00.37 | *** join/#uphpu cycoboy (~cycokilr@c-67-166-121-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 23:01.37 | mindjuju | sorry, wrong title, it's called Taiwan Relations Act |
| 23:01.43 | jmul|w | do Taiwanese citizens pay taxes to Beijing now? |
| 23:01.50 | mindjuju | nope |
| 23:02.19 | mindjuju | when the nationalists fled beijing, the went to taiwan, and mao took over all of mainland china after world war 2 |
| 23:02.54 | mindjuju | the UN recognized taiwan as China until carter who changed recognition to beijing |
| 23:03.37 | mindjuju | in retaliation, congress passed taiwan relations act saying we would come to Taiwan's defense if the mainland every attacked. |
| 23:04.05 | mindjuju | well, it doesn't specifically say mainland, but it says if there were ever an attacker, only the mainland is thought to want taiwan |
| 23:06.31 | jmul|w | I remember reading an article somewhere....dang, can't remember where it was......that China would do some sort of strike if we put Aegis technology into the hands of the Taiwanese. That was probably 4 years ago if I recall. |
| 23:07.57 | mindjuju | i do recall them being really nevous about the aegis ships, and it seems like we decided against giving it to taiwan, but can't remember what it was china said about the situation |
| 23:08.32 | jmul|w | mindjuju: do you know if we have any military installations there? if so, are they navy installations? |
| 23:09.05 | mindjuju | when I was a poli sci major, i went to live in China for a year to get culture, history exposure. that was back in '99. the year we accidentally blew up the chinese embassy in Yugoslavia |
| 23:09.35 | mindjuju | talk about an interesting situation to observe from a poli sci point of view |
| 23:09.41 | jmul|w | yeah |
| 23:10.35 | mindjuju | i don't know of one, but that's more of because i've never looked it up |
| 23:10.40 | mindjuju | i just found this airbase though |
| 23:10.41 | mindjuju | Cha Shan Air Base, Hualien, Taiwan |
| 23:12.11 | mindjuju | it's funny cause when your over there, anybody who speaks english always wants to talk to you about your stance on Taiwan, followed by your stance on Tibet |
| 23:12.38 | mindjuju | we were advised to take a diplomatic approach and either feign ignorance or talk about it discreetly |
| 23:12.48 | mindjuju | and very carefully |
| 23:13.36 | jmul|w | do you think chinese gov't had undercover people go up to foreigners to ask those questions? |
| 23:14.13 | jmul|w | or were they not that paranoid? |
| 23:14.28 | mindjuju | absolutely. and not that i was anything more than a student but on several occassions i did have people follow me for the better part of the day. |
| 23:14.47 | mindjuju | i taught english in a public high school and had to ride public transportation |
| 23:15.14 | mindjuju | so i'd leave early in the morn on the days i taugh, and same old guy in a blue Mao suit would jump on with me, but would never say a word |
| 23:15.31 | mindjuju | get off when I did, walked the 2 blocks i did and would pass the school and do what ever for the 4 hours, |
| 23:15.53 | mindjuju | he'd never follow me beyond that, but , and who knows? maybe liked kicking it in downtown? |
| 23:16.39 | mindjuju | some expats that I had lunch with from austrailia had a laser pointer shone through their windows several times, we later found out that there were laser microphones |
| 23:16.54 | mindjuju | could have been some little chinese kid playing, could have been something else |
| 23:17.21 | mindjuju | truth told, I didn't do anything really tricky in China so i always felt sorry for anybody who might have been following me cause I really lead a borning life |
| 23:22.05 | jmul|w | I think I might have toyed with the idea to try and lose the guy in the suit to see what would happen. |
| 23:23.34 | mindjuju | tempt the fates? hmm... nah I played it safe. there are expats in chinese jails for various reasons |
| 23:31.33 | mindjuju | hey, what's the web address of where all are IRC comments are stored? |
| 23:33.04 | tierra | http://ibot.rikers.org/%23uphpu/ |
| 23:33.18 | mindjuju | awesome -- thnx! |
| 23:34.21 | tierra | !google jbot irc uphpu |
| 23:34.28 | tierra | btw... |
| 23:39.45 | macnewbold | ~uphpu-archives |
| 23:39.49 | macnewbold | ~uphpu archives |
| 23:39.50 | jbot | rumour has it, uphpu archives is http://ibot.rikers.org/%23uphpu/, or http://uphpu.org/pipermail/uphpu/ |
| 23:41.25 | *** part/#uphpu fungus (~fungus@firebat.aros.net) |
| 23:41.33 | mindjuju | i've got to come up with some type of attack for mac |
| 23:41.40 | mindjuju | we have bigdog and datawolf |
| 23:41.43 | mindjuju | need soemthing for mac |
| 23:42.29 | mindjuju | i was thinking something along the line of either mcgyver type attacks or something D n D based |
| 23:43.27 | jmul|w | mindjuju: mac and I agreed we need to get a bunch of Princess Bride quotes for jbot |
| 23:44.05 | mindjuju | that could be cool, i just happen to have the movie right here, actually, i could rip out like 10 good lines and make them into jbot commands |
| 23:44.37 | jmul|w | sweet |
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| 23:59.06 | eco|w | I think everytime I nmap comcast blocks my IRC port or something |
| 23:59.53 | eco|w | dataw0lf: You around? |