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| 02:20.54 | jm_ul|w | I took an asp class (yes, I'm still having nightmares) and one of the projects included using a datagrid. Is there something equivalent in php? It was connected to ms sql but I'm interested in reading about something similar that uses mysql. |
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| 04:14.46 | bigdog_ut | wps, why am i such a good programmer? |
| 04:15.43 | wps | because you were born under a full moon |
| 04:15.49 | bigdog_ut | lol |
| 05:14.15 | bigdog_ut | if no one has tried the gubed php debugger it is really an nice too |
| 05:14.16 | bigdog_ut | tool |
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| 13:08.53 | macnewbold | morning all |
| 13:40.08 | dataw0lf | good morning macnewbold |
| 13:40.14 | macnewbold | howdy |
| 14:06.37 | dataw0lf | macnewbold: I know you know about the two ways for modules in Apache, I'm just responding to 'you' to help Sheri learn without making her feel like I'm talking down or something. |
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| 14:29.48 | macnewbold | dataw0lf: yeah, no problem at all |
| 14:37.42 | dataw0lf | word. |
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| 14:44.17 | bigdog_ut | perhaps a good read for some of you |
| 14:44.23 | bigdog_ut | http://software.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/04/15/2130246&tid=91 |
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| 15:03.35 | jm_ul|w | bigdog_ut: since you're such a good programmer (quoting you from what you said last night on the channel) hehe .... what do you think of Qt? I'm guessing dataw0lf doesn't like it...but that is a guess. |
| 15:04.26 | dataw0lf | jm_ul|w: it's terrible. |
| 15:04.33 | dataw0lf | don't use it, or Jesus will cry. |
| 15:05.27 | jm_ul|w | i don't have it. was just reading on slashdot about their latest release. |
| 15:05.54 | dataw0lf | word. |
| 15:06.06 | dataw0lf | if you're looking to break into GUI hackery, I'd strongly suggest wxWidgets. |
| 15:06.25 | dataw0lf | Qt is reminiscient of MFC, to me. |
| 15:06.53 | jm_ul|w | yeah... I was eventually going to look into that...the GUI stuff. |
| 15:07.33 | dataw0lf | yeah, I recommend wxWidgets |
| 15:07.38 | fungus | I am only remotely interested in learning GUI stuff, but GTK doesn't look too bad. |
| 15:07.52 | dataw0lf | GTK isn't.... that... bad. |
| 15:07.57 | dataw0lf | but it's not for a beginner. |
| 15:08.36 | fungus | ahh, thx for the warning. |
| 15:09.00 | jm_ul|w | well...I think I fit into the beginner catagory. heh... I know I fit into that catagory. |
| 15:09.12 | dataw0lf | wxWidgets is relatively easy. |
| 15:09.15 | dataw0lf | and extremely powerful |
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| 15:09.37 | dataw0lf | plus alot of bindings in various languages. |
| 15:15.06 | jm_ul|w | there's only one wxWidgets right? (http://www.wxwidgets.org/) |
| 15:16.58 | jm_ul|w | well...that is the place I need to be looking at right? |
| 15:17.40 | dataw0lf | yes. |
| 15:17.42 | beandog | isnt wxwidgets just C or C++ |
| 15:17.49 | beandog | what about something like wxpython |
| 15:19.26 | dataw0lf | ... |
| 15:19.31 | dataw0lf | wxPython is wxWidgets |
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| 15:47.24 | bigdog_ut | jm_ul|w, if you want to do gui programming gnome (gtk) is good and wxwidgets |
| 15:50.57 | jm_ul|w | thx... it is something that definitley interests me but I think I'm going to have to get a grasp on a language first. |
| 15:51.36 | bigdog_ut | that is a good way of doing it |
| 15:51.49 | bigdog_ut | the problem that i have with qt is that it is not 100% open source |
| 15:51.53 | bigdog_ut | troll co owns it |
| 15:52.05 | bigdog_ut | whereas gnome is full open source |
| 15:52.36 | dataw0lf | plus Qt is slower. |
| 15:52.39 | dataw0lf | a bit easier to learn. |
| 15:52.46 | dataw0lf | but it's not designed well. |
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| 15:53.11 | bigdog_ut | actaully full qt is designed really well |
| 15:53.11 | jm_ul|w | oh ok... I had come across qt doing various searches but I don't know anyone that actually uses it. or rather talked with anyone that uses it. |
| 15:53.26 | bigdog_ut | and is really fast if you are doing straight qt |
| 15:53.39 | bigdog_ut | now if you hook into kde that is where you start to slow down some |
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| 15:56.24 | jm_ul|w | bigdog_ut: what language do you use most where you work? |
| 15:56.30 | bigdog_ut | java |
| 15:57.14 | bigdog_ut | jm_ul|w depends on what type of gui you want to do in what language...most langs have a gui part to them that you can use that build on other guis |
| 15:57.20 | dataw0lf | jm_ul|w: see, he wouldn't know speed if it hit him in the head. |
| 15:57.30 | bigdog_ut | lol |
| 15:58.21 | jm_ul|w | bigdog_ut: I was guessing java because of all the eclipse talk but wasn't sure if that was what you used at home or at work. |
| 15:58.35 | bigdog_ut | i use it both at home and work |
| 15:58.43 | bigdog_ut | i do alot of php programming at home too |
| 15:58.50 | bigdog_ut | cause they pay the bills |
| 15:59.34 | bigdog_ut | if you want to just learn gui then any gui language is okay |
| 16:00.08 | bigdog_ut | however, if there is a goal that you have for the gui language then i suggest finding one that helps that goal |
| 16:00.54 | bigdog_ut | i have done gui in these languages (gnome-gtk, java, mozilla) mainly |
| 16:01.03 | bigdog_ut | and have used various pieces in each |
| 16:01.57 | bigdog_ut | for example if you want to learn c/c++ then gnome-gtk, wxwidgets, and qt(kde) can teach that |
| 16:02.23 | bigdog_ut | if you want ot learn java then java has gui...if you want to learn javascript and xml then mozilla is good |
| 16:03.07 | jm_ul|w | well I want to learn a language that will run/process *stuff* etc in the background as well as making a half way decent gui. |
| 16:03.37 | bigdog_ut | what is your target platform? do you care about cross-platform? |
| 16:03.56 | dataw0lf | Python. |
| 16:04.01 | dataw0lf | bigdog_ut: shhh. |
| 16:04.06 | dataw0lf | jm_ul|w: use Python. |
| 16:05.03 | jm_ul|w | i picked up on php because the first few tutorials made sense....perl seemed a bit confusing for me. planned on using php to make a couple of websites to interface with mysql. After I got started on these websites, I was going to look into python. |
| 16:05.17 | dataw0lf | Good idea. |
| 16:05.33 | bigdog_ut | python is good |
| 16:05.53 | bigdog_ut | i would suggest learning c/c++ with gnome or wxwidgets though |
| 16:06.00 | bigdog_ut | if you dont already know c/c++ |
| 16:06.42 | jm_ul|w | I've had one semester of c++..... I can make a dos based calculator and such among a few other things but that's about it. |
| 16:07.03 | jm_ul|w | never pursued c++ outside a classroom |
| 16:07.12 | bigdog_ut | and you are running linux? |
| 16:07.15 | bigdog_ut | or windows? |
| 16:08.21 | jm_ul|w | to answer the question, I run windows. if I could ever get my stinking win-modem to work in linux, I'd probably use that a lot more because I really want to learn linux. (I'm on a dialup at home) |
| 16:08.44 | bigdog_ut | win-modems are not that hard at all |
| 16:09.14 | jm_ul|w | I've read through countless howto's but nothing has worked. |
| 16:09.23 | bigdog_ut | i would agree with dataw0lf that you should try something like ubuntu (debian) as a dual boot |
| 16:09.49 | bigdog_ut | i know that many here could help you with it |
| 16:09.55 | jm_ul|w | I live on campus and they will be isntalling a wireless connection which I plan on hooking into my ethernet card....I know I could get that to work. |
| 16:10.06 | bigdog_ut | yeah |
| 16:10.40 | jm_ul|w | as soon as that happens...I plan on installing a different distro other than fedora |
| 16:10.42 | bigdog_ut | but if you get linux up and running and you dont have alot of experience with c/c++ then i would suggest that you work with gnome gtk |
| 16:10.49 | bigdog_ut | or wxwidgets |
| 16:11.04 | bigdog_ut | getting familiar with c/c++ will no doubt be one of the best things to learn |
| 16:11.11 | dataw0lf | jm_ul|w: you coming to the Phlyte meeting? |
| 16:11.16 | bigdog_ut | almost all languags have a foundation there |
| 16:11.37 | bigdog_ut | then the script langs and other langs will be easier to work with |
| 16:11.43 | jm_ul|w | heh... can't. I live in southern colorado. I joined this list when I was living in provo |
| 16:11.43 | dataw0lf | I agree with bigdog_ut. |
| 16:11.51 | dataw0lf | oh, that's right. |
| 16:11.54 | dataw0lf | you keep telling me that. |
| 16:11.57 | jm_ul|w | heh |
| 16:12.05 | dataw0lf | but, yeah, I think all newbie programmers should master C first. |
| 16:12.17 | dataw0lf | well, perhaps not master, but fluency helps. |
| 16:12.23 | bigdog_ut | yes...and even assembly if u want to be good |
| 16:12.30 | jm_ul|w | is c still being used? |
| 16:12.37 | bigdog_ut | yes..tons |
| 16:12.51 | fungus | most *nix kernels are written in C |
| 16:12.53 | dataw0lf | I'm doing something in it right now. |
| 16:12.59 | dataw0lf | and about to pull my hair out. |
| 16:13.25 | bigdog_ut | most scripting langs use c parsers |
| 16:13.30 | jm_ul|w | hmm... ok. well I'll look into it after I get these two websites finished....want to get an understanding of php before I start them |
| 16:13.32 | bigdog_ut | php, python, ruby |
| 16:14.44 | fungus | I just had to confirm a bug the other day by reading some Objective-C code. I must say that is an ugly looking lang. |
| 16:15.18 | jm_ul|w | now that I know both of you use C, I'll keep that in mind for when I dive into it. I don't want information now but I'll be asking for good resources to learn it later. |
| 16:15.41 | bigdog_ut | np |
| 16:15.47 | dataw0lf | word |
| 16:15.47 | jm_ul|w | thx |
| 16:15.49 | jm_ul|w | heh |
| 16:15.50 | bigdog_ut | we give ya the lowdown on some books |
| 16:16.57 | jm_ul|w | I thought c was being phased out by microsoft =P (just kidding) |
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| 16:19.01 | jm_ul|w | does she use ubuntu? |
| 16:19.36 | dataw0lf | she will. |
| 16:20.08 | jm_ul|w | ah... going to convert her then eh? |
| 16:20.30 | dataw0lf | jes. |
| 16:20.46 | dataw0lf | I'm like the emperor. |
| 16:21.04 | dataw0lf | you can have the best intentions in the world, I'm still converting you to the dark side. |
| 16:21.42 | jm_ul|w | heh |
| 16:25.52 | drip | i thought ada was the dark side. |
| 16:33.56 | dataw0lf | now you're just being ridiculous. |
| 16:35.45 | macnewbold | well, dataw0lf, I got you beat then... I'm going out on a lunch date today with a really smart, really hawt girl, and she already uses FreeBSD |
| 16:35.59 | macnewbold | plus she really likes me |
| 16:38.08 | bigdog_ut | and the sh** has hit the fan -> http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/06/29/1342227&from=rss |
| 16:38.41 | dataw0lf | macnewbold: has she read the dark tower series by Stephen King? cuz if not you totally lose. |
| 16:39.04 | macnewbold | the only dark tower that _really_ matters is the one in LotR |
| 16:39.21 | dataw0lf | You're ridiculous. |
| 16:39.23 | macnewbold | she doesn't like Stephen King, and I'm happy about that... |
| 16:39.39 | dataw0lf | my girl is, like, totally better than your girl. |
| 16:39.41 | macnewbold | But she went to see all the LotR movies with me on opening morning |
| 16:39.51 | macnewbold | dude, my girl lives with me |
| 16:40.08 | fungus | he's got "benefits" |
| 16:40.30 | bigdog_ut | now redhat has a Directory server...oh great |
| 16:40.59 | fungus | is it Free? better than OpenLDAP? easier than OpenLDAP? |
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| 16:41.27 | bigdog_ut | it is netscapes ds that they are modifing for fedora |
| 16:41.34 | bigdog_ut | it is okay...very stable |
| 16:41.46 | dataw0lf | fungus: who says I don't get benefits asap? |
| 16:42.39 | mindjuju | there's actually a statistic about those *ahem* benefits, and it says married men have a higher frequency of *benefits* |
| 16:43.19 | macnewbold | hehe, yeah, way to go, mindjuju |
| 16:43.29 | mindjuju | seem like it was Dr. Ruth, i'll see if i can't find the study |
| 16:43.38 | macnewbold | oh, well, that ruins it then |
| 16:43.39 | fungus | I thought most people who grant benefits too soon might not give the best benefits. |
| 16:43.44 | macnewbold | she's a weirdo |
| 16:44.13 | nathang | most big name social scientiests are |
| 16:44.26 | nathang | scientists |
| 16:44.29 | dataw0lf | fungus: that's just what virgins say to make themselves feel better. |
| 16:44.37 | fungus | lol |
| 16:44.59 | fungus | that might be right. |
| 16:45.14 | dataw0lf | just like people who say 'only the mentally weak resort to violence' whatever, dude, just say you're a wuss. |
| 16:45.27 | dataw0lf | ;) |
| 16:45.38 | mindjuju | http://marriage.about.com/cs/sexualstatistics/a/sexstatistics.htm |
| 16:46.11 | fungus | I admit it fully. |
| 16:46.25 | mindjuju | quasi - safe for work, no pictures, but if your firewall is looking for keywords, it may trigger |
| 16:46.42 | mindjuju | here is the stat of import though |
| 16:46.52 | dataw0lf | yeah, see, I was at the highest rating there for a while. |
| 16:46.57 | dataw0lf | 'couples living together' |
| 16:47.01 | dataw0lf | higher than married folk. |
| 16:47.06 | mindjuju | Single folks are having s** at the least at 49 times a year |
| 16:47.20 | dataw0lf | yeah, I've already beaten that statistic this year. |
| 16:47.29 | dataw0lf | like, the first two months I probably beat it. |
| 16:48.02 | dataw0lf | Unless a statistic is about how much Java sucks, I don't believe it. |
| 16:48.20 | mindjuju | That segment about which countries do it more often is pretty interesting |
| 16:48.30 | fungus | I believe it. I am dragging it down. |
| 16:50.10 | fungus | Java sucks 50% as bad as Objective-C |
| 16:51.08 | dataw0lf | only glanced at Objective-C, so I can't really comment. |
| 16:51.15 | dataw0lf | but it must be like really bad. |
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| 16:59.30 | mindjuju | yo optikal, sup! |
| 16:59.45 | optikal | aah, namuch. Just got Ubuntu installed up on my workstation. |
| 17:00.08 | optikal | and yourself? |
| 17:00.23 | mindjuju | kickin it, keeping it real |
| 17:00.33 | optikal | werd |
| 17:00.48 | dataw0lf | you should stop worrying about your workstation and start worrying bout your serbar |
| 17:01.41 | mindjuju | can't seem to get enough of techno with the middle east flavor |
| 17:01.44 | optikal | dataw0lf: I will take that road when I come to it. Its not a feasable project, yet. But it shall be, in the next two months or so. |
| 17:01.59 | optikal | mindjuju: European? |
| 17:02.07 | optikal | Im jamming to George Acosta right now. |
| 17:02.17 | mindjuju | like barra barra by rachid taha |
| 17:02.27 | mindjuju | it's featured on the movie black hawk down |
| 17:03.21 | optikal | I've likely heard it, but I can't recall. |
| 17:08.27 | jm_ul|w | i like that soundtrack....black hawk down |
| 17:08.40 | mindjuju | yeah, it is awesome |
| 17:08.44 | dataw0lf | yeah, it's actually a pretty good soundtrack. |
| 17:09.21 | mindjuju | do ya'll remember the song that plays at the begining with the helicopters flying over the beach, the techno song, and it has that middle eastern man singing, but it goes techno |
| 17:09.38 | jm_ul|w | I've watched the movie....actually i've lost track how many times |
| 17:10.17 | dataw0lf | mindjuju: yeah, I like that song. |
| 17:10.21 | dataw0lf | ever heard Panjabi MC ? |
| 17:10.33 | mindjuju | it's a really good movie, and i know this is going to sound nerdy, but the History Channel did a documentary on Black Hawk Down that was far better than the movie, i think |
| 17:11.07 | mindjuju | Just cause they talk about all the facts, like when those helecopters were doing the strafing at the end, they were talking about the capabilities of those helicopters, it was way awesome |
| 17:11.14 | mindjuju | haven't heard panjabi mc |
| 17:11.19 | dataw0lf | yeah, my ex platoon sergeant was in somalia when that went down, he said it was pretty hardcore |
| 17:11.37 | dataw0lf | get Mundian to Bach Ke by Panjabi MC |
| 17:12.26 | jm_ul|w | I bought the dvd set that has that history channel special among all the other goodies. |
| 17:12.32 | jm_ul|w | awesome stuff |
| 17:12.45 | jm_ul|w | if you like that movie you'd like this dvd set |
| 17:13.18 | bigdog_ut | i can just ask my pops for the downlow |
| 17:13.21 | dataw0lf | Ridley Scott is one of my favorite directors. |
| 17:13.46 | jm_ul|w | mindjuju: I think that song is called synchrotone |
| 17:14.00 | dataw0lf | and Black Hawk Down was the most realistic 'war' movie I've ever seen. |
| 17:14.44 | jm_ul|w | between Black Hawk Down, Saving Private Ryan, and the HBO series Band of Brothers....I think they all hit that realistic level |
| 17:15.43 | dataw0lf | BHD was more realistic than Saving Private Ryan, but I didn't serve in WW2 so I don't really have a good basis for comparison. |
| 17:17.06 | bigdog_ut | the plot was not...but the footage and action were very spot on |
| 17:17.22 | jm_ul|w | mindjuju: I think it's actually a mix between a song called Chant and the song called Synchrotone. |
| 17:18.38 | dataw0lf | how was the plot not realistic? |
| 17:19.54 | bigdog_ut | 5 brothers and a group going after them |
| 17:20.11 | bigdog_ut | after the last one |
| 17:21.30 | jm_ul|w | After reading BHD online, I wonder how they could not put certain parts of it into the movie. I know they try and make scenes cohesive but I think there were scenes they could have fit in really well. |
| 17:22.33 | dataw0lf | all I know is that it was the most accurate portrayal of how soldiers act, think, and work amongst each other. |
| 17:22.44 | dataw0lf | and the action was spot on, like bigpuppy said |
| 17:23.44 | dataw0lf | Scott definitely kinda.... hid... the true US political motivations in Somalia, but he was trying to create empathy with the soldiers, so that's expected. |
| 17:24.15 | jm_ul|w | anyone ever play the game? bhd? |
| 17:24.18 | jm_ul|w | heh |
| 17:24.30 | dataw0lf | negative. |
| 17:25.08 | jm_ul|w | I guess it was cool at the time it came out. |
| 17:25.13 | bigdog_ut | drip i got a nice download on that one |
| 17:25.32 | drip | he he.. i would hope so |
| 17:25.38 | mindjuju | the thing i wished they could have gone into a little more detail in the movie was the mogadshu mile, the documentary does really well to cover the topic |
| 17:25.47 | bigdog_ut | 7.5/mbs |
| 17:27.46 | dataw0lf | mindjuju: yeah, my platoon sergeant was a member of that ranger outfit. |
| 17:28.09 | jm_ul|w | it seemed like they did cut that part a little short |
| 17:28.19 | jm_ul|w | according to the interviews I saw anyway |
| 17:28.24 | jm_ul|w | and the articles I read |
| 17:28.58 | mindjuju | see, I was waiting for more on that in the movie. I mean here these guys were fighting literally 24 hours of heavy combat then as the convoy evacuated, they look back to see these rangers and delta force troops under fire running for the stadium |
| 17:29.47 | jm_ul|w | overall, I think Scott did a good job with presenting that event. |
| 17:30.35 | jm_ul|w | well the whole 3 day event |
| 17:31.15 | jm_ul|w | dataw0lf: what was your platoon sergeant's last name? |
| 17:31.20 | mindjuju | v true, Ridley did do good job, it would have been hard to portray everything the documentary explained. hard and pricey |
| 17:31.22 | dataw0lf | Dilissio |
| 17:32.15 | *** part/#uphpu nathang (~nathang@128.187.241.246) |
| 17:32.51 | jm_ul|w | dataw0lf: what did you do in the military? |
| 17:33.01 | dataw0lf | cav scout / attack pathfinder |
| 17:33.15 | mindjuju | i bet you play a mean game of paintball |
| 17:33.26 | dataw0lf | Sgt D used to be a ranger but then he got real tough and became a pathfinder. :) |
| 17:33.38 | dataw0lf | yeah, I play a mean game of anything, cuz I'm the hawtness. |
| 17:33.39 | dataw0lf | ;) |
| 17:34.28 | jm_ul|w | dataw0lf: were you ever deployed anywhere to use your pathfinder skilz? |
| 17:34.33 | jm_ul|w | =) |
| 17:35.15 | dataw0lf | um, yeah. |
| 17:35.29 | dataw0lf | I was in a combat zone for 2/3rds of my time in the military. |
| 17:35.35 | dataw0lf | Mostly Afghanistan and Iraq. |
| 17:35.45 | jm_ul|w | when did you get out? |
| 17:35.50 | dataw0lf | a year ago. |
| 17:35.59 | dataw0lf | a year and a WEEK ago, actually. |
| 17:37.23 | jm_ul|w | when were you sent over there? |
| 17:38.08 | dataw0lf | I was in Iraq a week before the invasion. |
| 17:38.18 | dataw0lf | then rejoined the main forcez and invaded. |
| 17:38.23 | dataw0lf | and stayed for bout 9 months. |
| 17:38.44 | jm_ul|w | you still washing off the sand? I heard it was nasty. |
| 17:39.09 | jm_ul|w | ...and got in everything. |
| 17:39.13 | dataw0lf | yeah, I still pick it out of my ears every now and then. |
| 17:41.36 | jm_ul|w | I can't wait for this to come out on dvd.... http://www.gunnerpalace.com/ |
| 17:42.21 | mindjuju | Not that any part of war can really be termed funny, but you were speaking it reminded me of the quotes from the iraqiinformation minister about how it was all lies and that Bagdad had not been invaded, and that the Allies were going to lose |
| 17:42.52 | mindjuju | This guy http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/ |
| 17:43.01 | jm_ul|w | oh man...that guy was stupid |
| 17:44.07 | jm_ul|w | I wonder if he was under some sort of hypnotic spell and then snapped out of it in time to run and hide.....did they ever find him? |
| 17:44.26 | mindjuju | i think he fled to syria during the fall of bagdad |
| 17:44.36 | *** join/#uphpu wps_ (~wade@207.108.169.214) |
| 17:47.49 | jm_ul|w | "We have destroyed 2 tanks, fighter planes, 2 helicopters and their shovels - We have driven them back." |
| 17:47.52 | jm_ul|w | lol |
| 17:49.03 | jm_ul|w | sounds like you were driven back dataw0lf. haha...that guy was on crack or something. |
| 17:53.15 | dataw0lf | apparently |
| 17:53.34 | optikal | How have you guys resolved the issue of fonts on cross-platforms in web design? |
| 17:54.43 | mindjuju | i haven't found a fix and usually just write the words in the font I want into a GIF |
| 17:54.57 | mindjuju | either mix it with other elements or make a transparent gif to be placed over elements |
| 17:55.43 | mindjuju | If you need some dynamic ness to the GIFs, Imagemagick will create gifs with words on the fly |
| 17:57.48 | *** mode/#uphpu [+o wps] by ChanServ |
| 18:02.50 | optikal | mindjuju: heh.. thats definately not an option.. that would increase server load a ton.. being that we receive about 20,000 hits a day. |
| 18:34.56 | bigdog_ut | optikal, what is your concern w/ the fonts? |
| 18:36.59 | optikal | bigdog_ut: The different sizes in different operating sytems. |
| 18:37.14 | optikal | bigdog_ut: i.e., Windows has Arial and draws such a font differently than Linux. |
| 18:37.38 | optikal | Ive been told the best thing to use is percentages for font-size instead of say, px/em |
| 18:37.41 | bigdog_ut | css optikal then you can control the fonts and sizes by groups and fallbacks |
| 18:38.07 | optikal | I know CSS. :P |
| 18:38.55 | optikal | I meant, would you use a seperate css file that specifies the alternate font-sizes? or like you said, fallbacks. |
| 18:38.57 | bigdog_ut | yeah...but you can also use different css for different clients |
| 18:39.05 | bigdog_ut | both really |
| 18:39.11 | bigdog_ut | depends on how you want to do it |
| 18:39.14 | optikal | But, Ive been told that if you use percentage based font-sizes, it helps a ton. |
| 18:39.18 | bigdog_ut | most tend to do different css files |
| 18:39.24 | bigdog_ut | easier to maintanin and test |
| 18:39.26 | optikal | Do they? okay. Thats what I didnt know. |
| 18:39.54 | bigdog_ut | for example...many use a common.css type file that has the common stuff |
| 18:40.08 | bigdog_ut | then they might override that with a specific css for the browser and os type |
| 18:40.37 | optikal | Yeah. I do the same for browser stuff, but just never dealt with the font-size issues on different platforms. |
| 18:40.52 | optikal | Thanks. Ill touch base back in a moment with how this font-size percentage works out. |
| 18:41.04 | bigdog_ut | k |
| 18:41.21 | bigdog_ut | i personally dont use percentages too much |
| 18:41.27 | bigdog_ut | i tend to do strict sizes |
| 18:41.49 | optikal | Ive never used percentages. |
| 18:41.54 | optikal | Whats the disadvantage? |
| 18:42.55 | bigdog_ut | i dont like leaving percents up to the browser and os to determine |
| 18:43.01 | bigdog_ut | i like a fixed number |
| 18:45.52 | optikal | hmm |
| 18:50.03 | optikal | Whats the best way to check for linux with PHP? The if 'Linux' is in $_SERVER['HTTP_USER_AGENT']? |
| 18:51.11 | bigdog_ut | yeah that is a good option...there might be classes or soemthing already written you could use |
| 18:51.53 | optikal | Do all distros of linux, and browsers, put 'Linux' (or is it sometimes 'linux') in the http user agent? |
| 18:52.13 | bigdog_ut | ~google http user agent |
| 18:52.25 | dataw0lf | 'Linux' |
| 18:52.37 | optikal | dataw0lf: thanks. |
| 18:52.40 | dataw0lf | yeah, but you should probably just google for such things. |
| 18:52.46 | optikal | I have been. |
| 18:52.48 | dataw0lf | ~dwhit bigdog_ut |
| 18:52.48 | jbot | ACTION gives bigdog_ut the Priest Flip of the Blessed Foulness |
| 18:52.57 | dataw0lf | ~dhit bigdog_ut |
| 18:52.57 | jbot | ACTION manages to land Gentoo Install Time on bigdog_ut, freezing him for days |
| 18:53.02 | dataw0lf | muhaha |
| 18:53.06 | bigdog_ut | why is everyone using my techniques |
| 18:53.19 | dataw0lf | dude, that Gentoo Install Time is the best move evar, and it's mine, so shuddup. |
| 18:53.54 | bigdog_ut | it sucks |
| 18:54.00 | bigdog_ut | for the record |
| 18:57.04 | dataw0lf | you suck |
| 18:57.06 | dataw0lf | for the record |
| 18:57.25 | dataw0lf | bigdog_ut: are you coming to the Phlyte meeting? |
| 18:57.30 | bigdog_ut | no |
| 18:58.27 | bigdog_ut | i think my ideas are to different |
| 18:58.43 | bigdog_ut | so i did not want to hold the momentum back |
| 19:00.16 | dataw0lf | I might need muscle, cuz I don't think that Jeff guy likes me very much, hehe. |
| 19:00.36 | bigdog_ut | for? |
| 19:00.45 | dataw0lf | mailing list |
| 19:00.53 | bigdog_ut | oh the oop thread |
| 19:01.26 | bigdog_ut | i though he is in here too? |
| 19:01.32 | *** join/#uphpu beandog (~sdibb@64.50.56.200) |
| 19:01.50 | dataw0lf | I don't think so. |
| 19:02.30 | bigdog_ut | oh |
| 19:02.55 | dataw0lf | sup beandog |
| 19:03.21 | dataw0lf | bigdog_ut: you seen the new site design? |
| 19:03.22 | gthornock | optikal: the user agent string will usually say 'Linux' but don't count on it: it's very easy to spoof. |
| 19:03.31 | bigdog_ut | for you site? |
| 19:03.34 | optikal | gthornock: I know its easy to spoof. :) |
| 19:03.42 | dataw0lf | bigdog_ut: jea. |
| 19:03.45 | optikal | But no one going to our site, will need to worry about spoofing that, just to redraw the page a bit differently. |
| 19:03.46 | bigdog_ut | yeah |
| 19:03.56 | dataw0lf | like or no? |
| 19:03.59 | dataw0lf | advice? |
| 19:04.02 | bigdog_ut | it is nice |
| 19:04.10 | bigdog_ut | i think it looks good actually |
| 19:04.15 | dataw0lf | Wade'd probably be the person to axe |
| 19:04.16 | bigdog_ut | cause it is simple |
| 19:04.16 | gthornock | True. There are plenty of users, though, that do spoof it all the time for other reasons. |
| 19:04.22 | dataw0lf | cuz he's the design master. |
| 19:04.25 | optikal | Im just basically looking for the _best_ way that when a user comes ot my site, to determine if they are running under linux so that I can specify alternate font-sizes. |
| 19:04.28 | bigdog_ut | yeah he is |
| 19:04.43 | bigdog_ut | just do that optikal |
| 19:04.53 | gthornock | Some because they need sites that think you have to use IE, others because they want their Firefox on Windows to claim to be something on Linux :) |
| 19:05.02 | bigdog_ut | browsers can send different values...if they want to send ie windows..then so be it |
| 19:05.12 | optikal | gthornock: Then it would be their own fault if the site draws improperly. |
| 19:05.16 | gthornock | But, yes, for determining font sizes, you're probably fine to use user agent. |
| 19:05.30 | bigdog_ut | optikal it is there choice |
| 19:05.40 | optikal | yep, exactly. |
| 19:06.43 | bigdog_ut | if anyone is interested i will have the new uphpu eclipse 3.1 done sometime this week |
| 19:08.29 | beandog | death to windows |
| 19:08.30 | beandog | Thats my motd |
| 19:08.54 | dataw0lf | jes, with a rusty spoon. |
| 19:08.59 | dataw0lf | let's do it beandog. |
| 19:09.18 | beandog | The win2k updates that came out yesterday foobarred my samba. |
| 19:09.25 | dataw0lf | and while we're at it lets get bigdog_ut too. |
| 19:09.25 | beandog | took me a while to figure it out. |
| 19:09.39 | dataw0lf | how's smb working out for you? |
| 19:09.46 | beandog | slicker than snot |
| 19:09.54 | beandog | I love it. |
| 19:10.11 | bigdog_ut | do what? |
| 19:10.11 | beandog | I ripped out a windows box the other week that was just acting as a share on the network, and moved it to a linux server. |
| 19:10.31 | beandog | its been doing awesome til this morning. But, that was windows fault. |
| 19:13.43 | dataw0lf | bigdog_ut: kill you |
| 19:13.55 | dataw0lf | beandog: yeah, it usually is, eh? |
| 19:14.33 | bigdog_ut | oh |
| 19:15.03 | beandog | dataw0lf: no, normally its me tweaking some setting and then screwing it up :) |
| 19:15.19 | beandog | So I spent half the day trying to figure out what I had done wrong |
| 19:15.19 | beandog | heh |
| 19:18.13 | dataw0lf | hehe |
| 19:18.20 | dataw0lf | see mailing list bigpuppy |
| 19:18.29 | dataw0lf | that's like the coolest nick evar. |
| 19:18.31 | dataw0lf | 'bigpuppy' |
| 19:19.26 | bigdog_ut | bigpuppy = bigdog |
| 19:19.32 | bigdog_ut | it an alias |
| 19:19.54 | dataw0lf | you mean bigdog is an alias for bigpuppy correct? |
| 19:20.48 | bigdog_ut | alias bigpuppy = "bigdog" |
| 19:21.56 | dataw0lf | pshaw. |
| 19:22.35 | *** join/#uphpu nathang (~nathang@128.187.241.246) |
| 19:23.06 | macnewbold | optikal: regarding dynamic images of text killing the load on your server - at 20K hits per day, you'll be just fine |
| 19:24.05 | macnewbold | I've got a site that uses them all over and averages almost 20K hits per _hour_ and the server load is always under 5%, including the load from mysql, mail servers, etc. |
| 19:24.22 | macnewbold | just make sure they're cacheable images and you'll be fine |
| 19:25.03 | dataw0lf | macnewbold: wow. |
| 19:25.10 | dataw0lf | macnewbold: what's the cpu on those bad boys? |
| 19:25.15 | dataw0lf | cpus |
| 19:25.26 | bigdog_ut | pent II |
| 19:25.29 | dataw0lf | are you running spamassassin too? |
| 19:25.43 | dataw0lf | I hear some yapping coming from under the couch, somebody grab the puppy. |
| 19:25.57 | bigdog_ut | lol |
| 19:26.01 | dataw0lf | ;) |
| 19:26.07 | bigdog_ut | oh here comes the bite..... |
| 19:26.12 | *** kick/#uphpu [dataw0lf!~bigdog@166.70.34.182] by bigdog_ut (bigdog_ut) |
| 19:26.12 | *** join/#uphpu dataw0lf (~dataw0lf@66.219.227.114) |
| 19:26.14 | dataw0lf | I thought the gdlibrary was pretty cpu intensive. |
| 19:26.23 | dataw0lf | too bad for you I gots auto rejoin. |
| 19:28.07 | macnewbold | the CPU is just an average AMD Athlon, IIRC, ~2Ghz I think |
| 19:28.19 | macnewbold | yeah, it's running spamassassin too |
| 19:28.30 | dataw0lf | wow. |
| 19:28.33 | macnewbold | that's not even the only site on the server that uses it |
| 19:28.40 | macnewbold | yeah, it's FreeBSD :) |
| 19:28.45 | dataw0lf | pshaw |
| 19:28.46 | dataw0lf | ;) |
| 19:28.51 | macnewbold | it's just the busiest site that runs them |
| 19:28.54 | dataw0lf | I knew that was coming. |
| 19:28.57 | macnewbold | hehe |
| 19:28.58 | macnewbold | yep |
| 19:29.00 | macnewbold | cause it's true |
| 19:29.05 | dataw0lf | nice. |
| 19:29.08 | macnewbold | dude, my lunch date was hawt |
| 19:29.10 | macnewbold | ;) |
| 19:29.28 | macnewbold | completely jawesome |
| 19:29.34 | dataw0lf | hehe |
| 19:29.43 | dataw0lf | dude, he's stealing my vocabulary. |
| 19:29.52 | macnewbold | ~dwhit dataw0lf |
| 19:29.52 | jbot | ACTION and macnewbold demonstrates the Iron Two Killers Hand on dataw0lf's forehead |
| 19:29.52 | dataw0lf | now just start using Debian and you'll be as cool as me. |
| 19:30.07 | macnewbold | ~bdhit ubuntu |
| 19:30.07 | jbot | ACTION slaps the diviner's tin avalanche on ubuntu |
| 19:30.08 | dataw0lf | ~dhit macnewbold |
| 19:30.08 | jbot | ACTION manages to land Gentoo Install Time on macnewbold, freezing him for days |
| 19:30.32 | dataw0lf | ~dhit BSD |
| 19:30.32 | jbot | ACTION performs Dog Collar of the Heavens on BSD |
| 19:30.47 | macnewbold | much less a gentoo ricer |
| 19:30.52 | dataw0lf | hehe |
| 19:31.11 | dataw0lf | true that, using BSD makes you almost as cool as us Debian guys. Note the almost. |
| 19:31.23 | beandog | lols |
| 19:48.25 | dataw0lf | macnewbold: good email. |
| 19:48.40 | macnewbold | thx, dataw0lf |
| 19:48.42 | macnewbold | you too |
| 19:53.14 | dataw0lf | I didn't know if he was serious about OOP always being the right answer or what. |
| 19:53.19 | dataw0lf | He might've just been mad at me. |
| 19:53.22 | dataw0lf | :) |
| 19:54.23 | *** join/#uphpu drewbono (~andrew@pcp02403303pcs.reston01.va.comcast.net) |
| 19:54.23 | macnewbold | I'm going to beat mindjuju to the news today: |
| 19:54.26 | macnewbold | http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/4665121/detail.html |
| 19:55.00 | macnewbold | it's about an unforeseen complication arising with the recent supreme court decision on eminent domain / 5th amendment |
| 19:57.04 | dataw0lf | oh yeah. |
| 19:57.06 | dataw0lf | :) |
| 19:57.09 | dataw0lf | I think I heard about that one |
| 19:59.11 | dataw0lf | hehe, yeah read that, that's awesome |
| 19:59.33 | beandog | hehe, thats awesome |
| 20:02.03 | beandog | macnewbold is *always* right |
| 20:04.11 | dataw0lf | aight, they're coming in force, mac, let's barricade the walls. |
| 20:04.24 | dataw0lf | I didn't want to have to do this, but I'm going to have to lay into OOP. |
| 20:05.55 | *** join/#uphpu zardinuk (~jeff@vulcan.americom.com) |
| 20:07.51 | beandog | I dont know why its so hard for everyone on the list to understand that some things work some of the time, but nothing works best all of the time. |
| 20:08.14 | beandog | If that were true, there would never be more than one way to do things in the first place. |
| 20:09.03 | *** join/#uphpu spiderbiter (~spiderbit@c-24-10-189-88.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 20:09.50 | zardinuk | there's always a better way |
| 20:10.52 | beandog | But that doesnt make it the one true way. |
| 20:11.17 | zardinuk | I could give you many examples of something that came along and made something else completely obsolete |
| 20:12.28 | beandog | Well, I agree with you. There is always a better way. Thats totally off of what I was saying in the first place, though. |
| 20:15.01 | jm_ul|w | man... oop seems to be a hot topic on the mailing list. glad I don't know enough to make a comment. heh |
| 20:15.57 | beandog | Im still waiting for someone to post some examples of why their opinion is better on the list. :) |
| 20:16.11 | jm_ul|w | even if I did....don't think I'd comment |
| 20:16.23 | beandog | until then, its kinda like arguing in a philosphy class |
| 20:16.25 | zardinuk | I was waiting for a good example of procedural code, I posted my DyBase example but nobody commented |
| 20:16.42 | beandog | oh you did? |
| 20:16.48 | beandog | whod you post as |
| 20:16.51 | zardinuk | yeah, OO database example |
| 20:16.53 | zardinuk | Jeff Moss |
| 20:17.20 | beandog | ah there it is |
| 20:17.56 | dataw0lf | zardinuk: you're offensive and unknowledgeable, and leading people down an absolute path that doesn't make sense. Gimme a break. |
| 20:18.40 | zardinuk | what makes you think I'm unknowledgeable? I've been programming quite a while |
| 20:19.07 | beandog | The example kinda lost me a bit, but oh well. |
| 20:19.08 | zardinuk | why don't you post an example, as beandog has said, of your code that is better programmed procedurally and I'll dissect it |
| 20:19.18 | dataw0lf | And apparently you've been lucky enough to get projects where your fanatic beliefs haven't bitten you in the arse. |
| 20:19.26 | dataw0lf | I didn't even look at your code, to be honest. |
| 20:19.57 | zardinuk | you really assume an aweful lot |
| 20:20.09 | dataw0lf | awful? |
| 20:20.17 | zardinuk | so if you didn't look at my code, what does that make you? |
| 20:20.18 | dataw0lf | yeah, I assume an awful lot, you're correct. |
| 20:20.18 | jm_ul|w | are there any online docs available to know when to use proc vs oop? |
| 20:20.27 | beandog | thats a good question |
| 20:20.44 | beandog | I use oop whenever I have to share functions between two scripts |
| 20:21.04 | dataw0lf | beandog / jm_ul|w : http://www.zend.com/zend/art/oo-proc.php |
| 20:21.13 | dataw0lf | excellent article. |
| 20:21.14 | beandog | Of course, I _could_ just have an include of functions, but I don't. |
| 20:21.17 | beandog | k thx |
| 20:21.47 | jm_ul|w | cool |
| 20:21.51 | dataw0lf | zardinuk: It makes me a person that thinks that OOP and procedural aren't opposing sides. |
| 20:22.03 | dataw0lf | I _choose_ which one is best at the time. |
| 20:22.15 | dataw0lf | I don't need to get into a competition between OOP and procedural, that's ridiculous. |
| 20:22.32 | dataw0lf | as I said in a previous email: they shouldn't be 'opposing' they should be 'complimentary' |
| 20:22.41 | beandog | amen, brotah |
| 20:23.09 | dataw0lf | you're not going to get me into a troll fest, zardinuk, I'm the troll master, jeez. |
| 20:23.10 | dataw0lf | :) |
| 20:23.11 | dataw0lf | ~dataw0lf |
| 20:23.11 | jbot | i heard dataw0lf is sleeping again, or da supahstah, or a dink, or #utah's number one troll, or known by his full title: dataw0lf, Destroyer of Newbies, Troll of the Seas of IRC, God of All that is Technical, etc, etc |
| 20:23.20 | beandog | ~beandog |
| 20:23.20 | jbot | well, beandog is cool |
| 20:23.24 | beandog | heh |
| 20:23.29 | dataw0lf | hehe. |
| 20:23.34 | zardinuk | dataw0lf: you're the one throwing around personal insults... |
| 20:24.30 | cycokilr | you're not the troll master dude.. you're just the i have to disagree with everyone for the sake of disagreeing master.. |
| 20:24.46 | dataw0lf | cycokilr: that's, uh, a troll. |
| 20:24.53 | dataw0lf | zardinuk: personal insults? |
| 20:24.57 | cycokilr | sometimes.. |
| 20:25.08 | dataw0lf | I don't know you, so I don't know how any of my insults could be 'personal' |
| 20:25.10 | cycokilr | but trolls are much more complex in their dealings.. |
| 20:25.15 | cycokilr | you're not.. |
| 20:25.17 | zardinuk | yeah, you assume I am unknowledgable |
| 20:25.34 | dataw0lf | zardinuk: well, from the thread on the mailing list, that's what I gathered *shrug* |
| 20:25.39 | dataw0lf | cycokilr: you won't get me, sir, nice try though. |
| 20:25.54 | cycokilr | i'm not tryin.. just tellin' it like it is.. |
| 20:26.08 | cycokilr | ask anyone.. if they're not too skeered to say so.. |
| 20:26.19 | zardinuk | dataw0lf: well how would you know? I am apparently the OO grandmaster ;) You would contend that just because I'm familiar with OOP doesn't mean I'm familiar with procedural programming, which, as someone else pointed out, is ridiculous |
| 20:26.30 | dataw0lf | haha. |
| 20:26.47 | dataw0lf | You should've followed the original thread's site, I was responding to something he said there. |
| 20:26.53 | dataw0lf | cycokilr: why are you talking? |
| 20:26.57 | dataw0lf | cycokilr: ssh. |
| 20:27.30 | dataw0lf | zardinuk: it was s'posed to be 'sarcasm', but, you know, I guess you missed it. |
| 20:28.21 | dataw0lf | anything else/ |
| 20:28.23 | dataw0lf | //? |
| 20:28.32 | dataw0lf | I have to go fix something real quick, I'll be back in a jiffy. |
| 20:29.05 | dataw0lf | nevermind, it fixed itself. |
| 20:30.08 | zardinuk | sarcasm? repeat what you said |
| 20:30.25 | zardinuk | "you're offensive and unknowledgeable, and leading people down an absolute path that doesn't make sense. Gimme a break." |
| 20:30.49 | zardinuk | that is not sarcasm, if that's your idea of sarcasm you've got something wrong with your brain |
| 20:33.00 | cycokilr | amen |
| 20:33.32 | beandog | I have to agree with them there |
| 20:33.38 | dataw0lf | zardinuk: I was speaking of my comments on OOP programmers not knowing procedural code. |
| 20:33.43 | dataw0lf | I was referencing a webpage before. |
| 20:34.01 | dataw0lf | No, that was surely an observation (and 'insult') I gathered from the thread. |
| 20:34.20 | dataw0lf | (the comment you just mentioned, fyi) |
| 20:35.03 | dataw0lf | so, sarcasm == OOP majority doesn't know procedural programming insult == unknowledgeable etc |
| 20:35.49 | zardinuk | and exactly why do you think I'm unknowledgable on the subject? |
| 20:36.44 | cycokilr | i love riding bicycles backwards.. |
| 20:36.45 | dataw0lf | Because you're stating absolutes. |
| 20:37.06 | dataw0lf | And trying to pit procedural versus OOP |
| 20:37.50 | dataw0lf | It sounds like something you'd hear from a bad community college professor. |
| 20:39.50 | zardinuk | dataw0lf: I'm presenting a coherent argument, saying that OOP is a design principle that can be effectively applied in any situation |
| 20:40.01 | zardinuk | dataw0lf: so far you have not really backed up your argument |
| 20:40.35 | dataw0lf | a 'coherent' argument? You gave some fluff database class and then stated rather adamantly THAT OOP IS TEH BEST AND NUTTIN CAN TOUCH OMGZ |
| 20:40.46 | dataw0lf | What exactly am I arguing? |
| 20:40.57 | zardinuk | I just explained it to you! |
| 20:41.05 | zardinuk | OOP is a design principle that can be effectively applied in any situation |
| 20:41.08 | dataw0lf | That OOP doesn't fit every situation? I don't have to argue that, if you were as knowledgeable as you seem to claim, you'd already know that isn't true. |
| 20:41.12 | *** part/#uphpu gthornock (~gthornock@translate.sento.com) |
| 20:41.22 | zardinuk | if you are AVOIDING it, then you do not understand it |
| 20:41.28 | dataw0lf | avoiding what? |
| 20:41.38 | zardinuk | OOP |
| 20:41.40 | dataw0lf | I use OOP all the time, in Python. |
| 20:41.47 | zardinuk | well you don't have to! |
| 20:42.01 | dataw0lf | You're right, I don't have to. I choose to. They're you go. |
| 20:42.01 | zardinuk | so why do you use it? |
| 20:42.13 | dataw0lf | Because in some situations I use it in, it works best. |
| 20:42.23 | dataw0lf | Does anybody else think we're retreading the same ground here? |
| 20:42.32 | dataw0lf | And Python's OOP is perfect for me. |
| 20:42.43 | nathang | tiresomely |
| 20:42.45 | zardinuk | like you said yourself, its a design principle, not a language feature |
| 20:42.59 | *** join/#uphpu tierra (~tierra@dsl093-225-126.slc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 20:43.13 | dataw0lf | zardinuk: How about we just stop here, if you want to talk about it, /join #urapug. |
| 20:43.19 | dataw0lf | I don't have to be so nice there, either. |
| 20:43.36 | dataw0lf | we're bothering the rest of the uphpu members with this incredibly inane argument. |
| 20:43.44 | dataw0lf | I'm done. |
| 20:43.50 | cycokilr | 'bout time.. |
| 20:45.24 | cycokilr | the parking lot.. 3:30.. today!.. you're dead meat man! |
| 20:45.27 | cycokilr | ha ha ha.. |
| 20:46.33 | *** join/#uphpu toxs (~toxs@166.70.209.242) |
| 20:47.42 | macnewbold | dataw0lf: good message to the list about 30 min ago :) |
| 20:50.45 | dataw0lf | danke sir |
| 20:51.32 | macnewbold | I'm glad at least someone came around to seeing why we decided to do PHP4 and not heavily OOP in phlyte |
| 20:51.49 | macnewbold | we're totally going to be modular about it, I mean we're not cavemen, |
| 20:52.15 | macnewbold | but we don't want to depend heavily on php4 OOP, since it has changed a bunch in php5 |
| 20:52.16 | dataw0lf | we weren't raised in a barn! |
| 20:52.22 | dataw0lf | ;) |
| 20:52.48 | dataw0lf | yeah, well, I mean, we go with PHP 4 OOP, I would've pulled my hair out. |
| 20:52.50 | zardinuk | if you're going to do everything modular you may as well use classes |
| 20:53.34 | dataw0lf | Um, no, ssshhh. |
| 20:53.42 | dataw0lf | this.. is.. a... training.. meeting.. |
| 20:53.46 | dataw0lf | read my email. |
| 20:53.50 | dataw0lf | but you might not understand it. |
| 20:54.42 | dataw0lf | macnewbold: nice email 8 minutes ago in reply to zardinuk here ;) |
| 20:55.00 | macnewbold | zardinuk: not necessarily |
| 20:55.30 | dataw0lf | modularity != OOP language features |
| 20:55.42 | dataw0lf | OOP language features != OOP design |
| 20:56.41 | jm_ul|w | mindjuju: no news today? |
| 20:57.46 | zardinuk | dataw0lf: actually, modules are almost synonymous with classes in Ruby.. and that works out well, in PHP they ARE the same, a module is just a class with static functions |
| 20:58.39 | zardinuk | you guys thinking of just "including" files and having everything in the same namespace? |
| 20:58.42 | dataw0lf | modules != modularity (really) |
| 20:58.59 | dataw0lf | are you like taking words that look similar and throwing them into what you're saying? |
| 20:59.05 | dataw0lf | I'm almost half convinced you're a bot. |
| 20:59.19 | zardinuk | well explain modularity |
| 20:59.28 | zardinuk | I have 2 possible methods in mind |
| 21:01.23 | zardinuk | you either use classes, or you just have everything in the main namespace and "include" the "modules" you need |
| 21:01.36 | *** part/#uphpu nathang (~nathang@128.187.241.246) |
| 21:02.02 | macnewbold | zardinuk: ever heard of functions? They're like methods, but outside a class... |
| 21:02.09 | macnewbold | they're a great way to do modularity |
| 21:02.21 | macnewbold | yes, the functions are all in your namespace |
| 21:02.22 | zardinuk | macnewbold: yeah, you throw all the functions in the same namespace |
| 21:02.23 | macnewbold | that's great |
| 21:02.33 | zardinuk | why not put them into classes? |
| 21:02.44 | macnewbold | cause you're doing procedural, not OO |
| 21:02.47 | macnewbold | OOP I mean |
| 21:02.50 | zardinuk | I'm trying to help you guys out here, sheesh, you are hardened anti-OOPers |
| 21:03.03 | macnewbold | why put them _in_ classes is the better question... |
| 21:03.23 | macnewbold | you're talking like OOP is the default, and you need a reason to do something different |
| 21:03.33 | macnewbold | in most languages, procedural is the default |
| 21:03.37 | zardinuk | to prevent namespace conflits |
| 21:03.49 | macnewbold | not a problem if you're naming your functions well |
| 21:04.09 | zardinuk | with a namespace identifier? lol |
| 21:04.10 | macnewbold | programming did exist before namespaces, and they seemed to get by okay |
| 21:04.23 | zardinuk | but they tagged their functions with an artificial namespace |
| 21:04.33 | macnewbold | sure, it works just as well as a real one, most of the time |
| 21:04.46 | zardinuk | but it's a hack, it's ugly |
| 21:04.50 | macnewbold | the biggest problem you get without namespaces is global _variables_, not global function names. |
| 21:04.56 | zardinuk | the facilities are there to make life easier for everyone |
| 21:04.58 | macnewbold | and functions do that just fine |
| 21:05.20 | macnewbold | zardinuk: it's _more_ work to wrap all my functions in a class than it is to just write them. |
| 21:05.32 | macnewbold | think about how much code it takes just to set up a basic class |
| 21:05.39 | macnewbold | all the getters, setters, etc. |
| 21:05.42 | dataw0lf | sorry, work. |
| 21:05.54 | zardinuk | you dont need getters and setters |
| 21:05.59 | macnewbold | when you do it the normal way, you don't need them at all |
| 21:06.00 | zardinuk | but I would advocate them also |
| 21:06.06 | dataw0lf | of course you would. |
| 21:06.08 | macnewbold | zardinuk: if you're encapsulating, you need them |
| 21:06.16 | zardinuk | yes, but you dont need to use encapsulation |
| 21:06.31 | macnewbold | w/o encap. in classes, you've just got a bunch of globals in a different namespace |
| 21:06.31 | zardinuk | if all you want is a namespace, just say class Phlyte { } |
| 21:06.38 | dataw0lf | well, not really, getters/setters actually violate encapsulation. |
| 21:06.40 | macnewbold | that's my point! who needs a namespace! |
| 21:06.55 | zardinuk | you don't need it, it makes life easier |
| 21:07.06 | macnewbold | yes and no. If it were totally encapsulated/isolated, it would be pretty pointless. |
| 21:07.24 | macnewbold | you've got to have _some_ functions that provide and control access to the data contained in the object instance |
| 21:07.26 | zardinuk | you don't see the point of getters and setters? |
| 21:07.51 | dataw0lf | me? |
| 21:07.56 | zardinuk | either |
| 21:08.01 | dataw0lf | external access to implementation details? |
| 21:08.05 | zardinuk | you can have a universal getter/setter method.... |
| 21:08.08 | dataw0lf | e.g., not encapsulation. |
| 21:08.12 | dataw0lf | that's a better way, sure. |
| 21:08.41 | dataw0lf | but, I mean, if you're talking _OOP_ here, getters and setters violate it in fundamental ways. |
| 21:08.48 | dataw0lf | I don't really have the time nor patience to explain it to you. |
| 21:08.51 | macnewbold | zardinuk: what do you mean "universal" getter/setter? elaborate please |
| 21:08.54 | dataw0lf | I should have an article here, eine moment. |
| 21:09.00 | dataw0lf | http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-09-2003/jw-0905-toolbox.html |
| 21:09.03 | dataw0lf | there yah go. |
| 21:09.19 | macnewbold | at some point, /me is going to have to get back to work |
| 21:09.26 | dataw0lf | yeah, that's where I'm headed. |
| 21:09.30 | macnewbold | but I feel obliged to help zardinuk see the light first ;) |
| 21:10.06 | zardinuk | method_missing |
| 21:11.38 | zardinuk | on the phone |
| 21:13.00 | zardinuk | you can use classes in PHP4 for namespaces, right? |
| 21:13.15 | zardinuk | I would use PHP5 for the exceptions alone |
| 21:13.37 | dataw0lf | again, you're missing the point of the whole phlyte project. |
| 21:13.45 | dataw0lf | Yes, the exceptions in PHP 5 are noteworthy. |
| 21:13.50 | dataw0lf | We're starting with PHP 4. |
| 21:13.53 | dataw0lf | and procedurally. |
| 21:13.57 | dataw0lf | It's been voted on. |
| 21:14.07 | dataw0lf | We will move to PHP 5 as a part of the project. |
| 21:14.17 | dataw0lf | and OOP design will be part of that too. |
| 21:14.47 | zardinuk | yeah... well, PHP5 is not necessary when you can get suitable OO design from PHP4 |
| 21:15.04 | zardinuk | I still dont understand why you shouldn't use namespaces |
| 21:15.20 | dataw0lf | are you blind? |
| 21:15.29 | dataw0lf | and your braille computer thingamabob is broken? |
| 21:15.39 | zardinuk | no, explain dataw0lf |
| 21:15.50 | zardinuk | you nut |
| 21:15.56 | dataw0lf | true dat. |
| 21:16.15 | dataw0lf | sorry, I have to work, listen, look through the emails on that thread, and through the logs here. |
| 21:16.36 | zardinuk | I was really talking to you mac |
| 21:16.48 | zardinuk | I think dataw0lf is on drugs |
| 21:17.20 | dataw0lf | seriously, you don't have to think, you can just ask anyone in here. |
| 21:17.37 | dataw0lf | everyone knows I'm mean and offensive in many ways. |
| 21:17.45 | zardinuk | well then shut up? |
| 21:18.21 | dataw0lf | hehe, you finally broke. |
| 21:18.58 | macnewbold | so what's the "universal" getter/setter thing about? |
| 21:19.48 | macnewbold | oh, dataw0lf: really quick before you go: could you spend a few minutes (5-10 maybe) at the phlye meeting teaching us a little bit about the python thing you've done? |
| 21:20.59 | dataw0lf | macnewbold: yeah. |
| 21:21.19 | dataw0lf | _if_ I'm able to make it, might be on a date. |
| 21:21.21 | zardinuk | "Both method calls and property accesses can be overloaded via the __call(), __get() and __set() methods" |
| 21:21.41 | zardinuk | extremely powerful |
| 21:22.22 | dataw0lf | zardinuk: I agree, special method overloading is pretty jawesome. |
| 21:22.58 | zardinuk | I think thats the sort of techniques you guys aught to be teaching |
| 21:23.12 | *** join/#uphpu gthornock (~gthornock@translate.sento.com) |
| 21:23.14 | zardinuk | you're both hardcore C programmers or something... it's ridiculous |
| 21:23.29 | dataw0lf | No, no, I use OOP, like I said, I just think that procedural has it's place, see. |
| 21:23.34 | dataw0lf | you're trying to make an enemy where there is none. |
| 21:23.49 | zardinuk | hey! I think the sun came out over your head dataw0lf :) |
| 21:24.20 | dataw0lf | zardinuk: hehe, I just like to screw with people, it's all part of my grand scheme for.. something, who knows, maybe I just like being an arse. |
| 21:24.50 | dataw0lf | zardinuk: anyways, yeah, I'll be going over special method overloading, some basic design patterns (singleton versus borg, etc), etc in the Python port. |
| 21:25.04 | dataw0lf | but the people who will be participating in the Python port will already have at least a notch or two under their belt. |
| 21:25.25 | zardinuk | don't let macnewbold start naming things phlyte__init() and stuff, whatever you do |
| 21:25.36 | dataw0lf | rol |
| 21:26.07 | dataw0lf | do you know Python? |
| 21:26.37 | zardinuk | "PHP 5 introduces the 'static' keyword to declare a method static, thus callable from outside the object context." |
| 21:26.44 | zardinuk | that's too bad |
| 21:26.50 | zardinuk | no I dont know python |
| 21:27.05 | dataw0lf | well, feel free to contribute, at the meeting or on the mailing list. |
| 21:27.20 | zardinuk | the frustration would kill me, I'm sure |
| 21:27.40 | dataw0lf | heh |
| 21:27.42 | zardinuk | that static keyword for functions not being available in php4 is real lousy |
| 21:27.57 | zardinuk | everything would have to be instantiated |
| 21:28.08 | zardinuk | which is not so bad |
| 21:28.21 | zardinuk | but still sucks |
| 21:29.31 | zardinuk | I have a PHP framework already, you guys can have it, it's in PHP5, I think its the best framework ever |
| 21:29.43 | zardinuk | Objects EVERYWHERE!!!!! |
| 21:34.28 | dataw0lf | uh oh, I have to go into my physical friday. |
| 21:34.50 | dataw0lf | if they try to pull me back in I'm going to be a Canadian in less than a month |
| 21:41.26 | bigdog_ut | lol |
| 21:41.34 | bigdog_ut | zardinuk i love the objects |
| 21:41.48 | zardinuk | lol |
| 21:42.06 | dataw0lf | uh oh. |
| 21:42.10 | dataw0lf | the puppy is loose again! |
| 21:42.23 | dataw0lf | ~dhit bigdog_ut |
| 21:42.23 | jbot | ACTION manages to land Gentoo Install Time on bigdog_ut, freezing him for days |
| 21:45.55 | bigdog_ut | the bigdog is back...he's back!!!! |
| 21:46.19 | bigdog_ut | hey can i get some oop emails please |
| 21:46.28 | bigdog_ut | mindjuju, you got some oop email for me |
| 21:46.38 | bigdog_ut | news and what not? |
| 21:46.53 | bigdog_ut | dear php user, |
| 21:47.28 | bigdog_ut | unfortunately you are not smart enough to know oop programming to even know that oop support in php is not 100% |
| 21:47.31 | bigdog_ut | thanks, |
| 21:47.34 | bigdog_ut | php core developer |
| 21:48.32 | zardinuk | I can't say anything else, I'd either write a novel about it or say "you just dont understand" |
| 21:49.24 | zardinuk | my opinion is people just want to be lazy programmers |
| 21:49.45 | bigdog_ut | holy crap...do i see spiderbiter in here |
| 21:49.58 | bigdog_ut | now there is a lazy programmer zardinuk |
| 21:50.23 | spiderbiter | hey bigdog_ut! |
| 21:50.48 | dataw0lf | seriously, you just need to stick with one handle, dude. |
| 21:50.49 | spiderbiter | thanks for the welcome dataw0lf |
| 21:51.00 | bigdog_ut | who? |
| 21:51.02 | dataw0lf | it's all <3 |
| 21:51.04 | dataw0lf | spiderbiter |
| 21:51.13 | bigdog_ut | he does right? |
| 21:51.23 | spiderbiter | yep |
| 21:51.27 | dataw0lf | does what? |
| 21:51.33 | bigdog_ut | one handle |
| 21:51.38 | dataw0lf | on FreeNode, anyways. |
| 21:51.46 | dataw0lf | evilly, of course. |
| 21:53.49 | dataw0lf | tierra: is Harm at work? |
| 21:53.57 | tierra | yeah |
| 21:54.10 | dataw0lf | tell him I hate him. |
| 21:54.32 | dataw0lf | kthnx |
| 21:56.57 | dataw0lf | wow, just realized that it's independence day weekend this weekend. |
| 21:57.00 | dataw0lf | this is going to be hawt. |
| 21:57.18 | *** join/#uphpu eco|w (~eco@dsl093-225-126.slc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 21:57.31 | mindjuju | i'm sure you'll do your best to see that you get your fair share of "benefits" |
| 21:58.22 | bigdog_ut | what man does not like benefits |
| 21:58.26 | bigdog_ut | tell me that? |
| 21:59.00 | mindjuju | well, besides eunuchs, none that i can think of |
| 21:59.28 | bigdog_ut | eunuchs like the non-existent benefits |
| 22:00.38 | bigdog_ut | and gays like the hmo benefits |
| 22:00.39 | mindjuju | i'm actually taking this weekend off, making bbq and building a sandbox for my son |
| 22:00.49 | *** join/#uphpu fungus (~fungus@firebat.aros.net) |
| 22:01.12 | jm_ul|w | dataw0lf: we'll expect a full report on tuesday morning on the ubuntu conversion. =P |
| 22:02.22 | dataw0lf | she's coming over tonight, then we're going to a show at a bar down the street. |
| 22:02.27 | macnewbold | dataw0lf: if you're on a date during the Phlyte meeting time, just bring her with you. We'll make it fun for you both, I promise. :) |
| 22:02.41 | jm_ul|w | mindjuju: did I miss the news today? |
| 22:02.47 | dataw0lf | macnewbold: oh, yeah, that'd be great. |
| 22:02.57 | dataw0lf | 'you haven't called in like 3 weeks' |
| 22:03.12 | dataw0lf | 'I've been umm.. busy.. with.. normal.. people' |
| 22:03.57 | bigdog_ut | dataw0lf's been getting some hmo benefits |
| 22:04.01 | mindjuju | nope, not missed. had huge policy meeting on email, and telling upper management they must stop this practice of having non technically minded people making technical decisions |
| 22:04.06 | macnewbold | zardinuk: re the special method overloading: it can be pretty powerful, but if you're just using the (lame) defaults, you haven't really provided anything more than a global variable in a namespace. The point of getters and setters is to _control_ access to them, not simply provide it, because that's easier done by leaving it as a normal variable. |
| 22:04.21 | mindjuju | because they make bad calls, jack up everything, and then everybody looks to me to fix |
| 22:04.30 | *** join/#uphpu abc (~Miranda@host182-150.pool8017.interbusiness.it) |
| 22:04.34 | dataw0lf | bigdog_ut: :/ |
| 22:04.38 | bigdog_ut | lol |
| 22:04.43 | dataw0lf | ;) |
| 22:05.03 | bigdog_ut | right optikal |
| 22:05.33 | jm_ul|w | mindjuju: did you get to raise your voice? heh |
| 22:06.15 | mindjuju | oh there was much of the raising of the voice, and there was much weeping, wailing and the gnashing of much teeth |
| 22:06.19 | zardinuk | true, I've never used it for that... in fact I usually don't use getters and setters |
| 22:06.24 | dataw0lf | I love gnashing my teeth. |
| 22:06.35 | zardinuk | unless I am getting/setting custom classes |
| 22:06.49 | zardinuk | if its just a string or whatever I just access the attribute directly |
| 22:06.50 | mindjuju | i just collected all the IT staff and march into the meeting and laid down the law about how that undermines our ability to do our job efficently |
| 22:06.55 | bigdog_ut | most people dont understand the reason behind getter and setters |
| 22:07.51 | macnewbold | bigdog_ut: why don't you share with all of us your wisdom about the reason behind getters and setters |
| 22:08.01 | bigdog_ut | java beans mac |
| 22:08.12 | bigdog_ut | not part of the oop design |
| 22:08.20 | bigdog_ut | java beans and reflection |
| 22:08.33 | zardinuk | in some languages, getters/setters are integral |
| 22:08.42 | jm_ul|w | mindjuju: was there a whip involved or did anyone get caned? that'd be awesome. |
| 22:08.43 | bigdog_ut | then it became really popular in the struts world |
| 22:08.49 | zardinuk | in PHP you can declare public attributes so they are not really needed |
| 22:09.12 | mindjuju | nope, no whips, but new policy forged that I get to go around and smack people on the head with |
| 22:09.22 | bigdog_ut | true...but most attributes you want to be private |
| 22:09.26 | jm_ul|w | good policy |
| 22:09.34 | zardinuk | ... and private attributes |
| 22:09.44 | bigdog_ut | same thing |
| 22:09.45 | bigdog_ut | lol |
| 22:09.46 | zardinuk | so getters/setters take on a different role than they used to |
| 22:09.50 | jm_ul|w | ...unless they like pain |
| 22:10.18 | bigdog_ut | but if you are using interfaces you dont want them getting into your attributes...you want a method for that |
| 22:10.26 | zardinuk | I'll use them say I have a "Money" object, and a "Order" object, if the order is in the unitd states, the money becomes AmericanMoney and goes into the database as dollars |
| 22:10.50 | zardinuk | so when order->setMoney($money) happens, a lot more goes on behind the scenes |
| 22:11.52 | bigdog_ut | correct like money conversions or notation |
| 22:12.02 | zardinuk | logging... |
| 22:12.12 | zardinuk | dateUpdated gets set every time setXXXXX is called |
| 22:12.28 | bigdog_ut | oh man...you need like log4php then |
| 22:12.42 | zardinuk | whats that? |
| 22:12.53 | bigdog_ut | loggin utility |
| 22:16.21 | zardinuk | OOP is great, you OOP nay sayers are missing out |
| 22:16.32 | zardinuk | I think getters and setters are one of those things the nay sayers dont like |
| 22:16.44 | macnewbold | yep |
| 22:16.45 | zardinuk | they think its totally unnecessary |
| 22:16.47 | macnewbold | nay nay nay |
| 22:16.55 | zardinuk | there you are |
| 22:17.09 | macnewbold | no, they way many people use them that is bad |
| 22:17.22 | macnewbold | it's bad to have public attributes, |
| 22:17.31 | macnewbold | and worse to have them private with lame getters/setters |
| 22:17.50 | bigdog_ut | how is that lame |
| 22:17.52 | macnewbold | they might as well be global |
| 22:18.11 | bigdog_ut | get/set is the method to access private attributes |
| 22:18.12 | macnewbold | if your getters and setters do nothing but get/set the private value, then it might as well be public |
| 22:18.15 | macnewbold | but public is bad |
| 22:18.35 | bigdog_ut | what about if you are implementing it as an interface |
| 22:18.42 | zardinuk | macnewbold: its easier to localize stuff later on if you have getters/setters |
| 22:18.57 | macnewbold | if you're ever going to localize stuff |
| 22:19.04 | macnewbold | some projects just don't go through that many iterations |
| 22:19.09 | zardinuk | yeah, sometimes I choose to skip the getters/setters |
| 22:19.16 | macnewbold | v1.1 is all you ever do |
| 22:19.25 | bigdog_ut | lol |
| 22:19.26 | bigdog_ut | okay |
| 22:19.27 | macnewbold | planning for the future, when there is no future, is just extra cost |
| 22:19.28 | macnewbold | :) |
| 22:19.31 | zardinuk | but in the data model I will always use the getters/setters cause it comes in handy all over the place |
| 22:19.40 | macnewbold | I see your point(s) though |
| 22:20.19 | zardinuk | databases and sessions are two good places to use getters/setters |
| 22:20.35 | macnewbold | wow... 27 users in here, and only 2 bots and 2 alter-egos |
| 22:20.38 | macnewbold | doh |
| 22:20.41 | macnewbold | spoke too late :) |
| 22:22.09 | fungus | Most people would not prefer "Smaller, Faster, Easier" in a man. |
| 22:22.55 | zardinuk | her name is Miranda |
| 22:23.23 | dataw0lf | sure would appreciate it in a woman! |
| 22:23.33 | dataw0lf | ~rimshot |
| 22:23.33 | jbot | ch-ch-chhh |
| 22:23.34 | fungus | Exactly. "Miranda, I'm smaller, faster, easier" |
| 22:24.01 | fungus | It is a man talking to miranda. |
| 22:25.00 | mindjuju | ... and now, the news... |
| 22:25.03 | dataw0lf | I got what you meant, fungus. |
| 22:25.07 | mindjuju | Oprah suffers "most humiliating moment in her life"! What the H! |
| 22:25.07 | mindjuju | http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050628/ap_en_tv/winfrey_black_shoppers_13 |
| 22:25.08 | dataw0lf | ~dhit fungus |
| 22:25.08 | jbot | ACTION appears right behind fungus and slaps him in the back of the head |
| 22:25.25 | mindjuju | Basic Human rights infringed! A woman does have the right to drop her top when ever she pleases! |
| 22:25.26 | mindjuju | http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/orl-locvbook29062905jun29,0,3744960.story?coll=ny-leadnationalnews-headlines#121 |
| 22:25.26 | mindjuju | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:25.26 | mindjuju | Conserve water the England way! |
| 22:25.26 | mindjuju | http://www.guardian.co.uk/water/story/0,13790,1517040,00.html |
| 22:25.43 | mindjuju | Yoda to get official post in Bush's Government! |
| 22:25.44 | mindjuju | http://www.weeklyworldnews.com/features/politics/61695 |
| 22:25.44 | mindjuju | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:25.44 | mindjuju | Drunk Driving in a Grocery store? ALL MUST READ |
| 22:25.44 | mindjuju | http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050629/ap_on_fe_st/reckless_shopping_cart |
| 22:25.44 | mindjuju | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:25.46 | mindjuju | What's ARPA up to these days? Self Healing Minefields! See the flash module to see how it works |
| 22:25.48 | mindjuju | http://www.arpa.mil/ato/programs/SHM/index.html# |
| 22:25.58 | mindjuju | k, everybody has to read the one about drunk driving |
| 22:26.26 | dataw0lf | hehe |
| 22:26.41 | dataw0lf | alright, I'm out guys, wish me luck. |
| 22:26.49 | mindjuju | The ARPA one is pretty cool. I like to check out this site to see the latest gizmos the US MIl is creating |
| 22:26.55 | mindjuju | that's legal for the public to know |
| 22:27.30 | mindjuju | datawolf, with all your hawtness, i would think luck to be beyond you? |
| 22:27.40 | dataw0lf | point taken |
| 22:28.40 | dataw0lf | wish me bad luck then, so I may be mortal for eine evening. |
| 22:28.51 | dataw0lf | hehe. |
| 22:28.54 | dataw0lf | cya guys. |
| 22:33.48 | zardinuk | I read a book on artificial intelligence recently, "On Intelligence", has anybody read that? |
| 22:34.16 | zardinuk | the author, original inventor of the palm pilot, has started a company to sell this stuff call "heirarchical memory" for computers |
| 22:35.06 | zardinuk | http://www.numenta.com/ |
| 22:35.07 | bigdog_ut | yeah |
| 22:35.16 | zardinuk | you read it? |
| 22:35.28 | bigdog_ut | im familiar with the heirarchial memory |
| 22:35.37 | bigdog_ut | no i did not read that one |
| 22:35.58 | zardinuk | I wanted to relate that to Object Oriented programming somehow, I know there is a relation, but it requires too many words, shutting down |
| 22:36.25 | bigdog_ut | relate what to oop? |
| 22:36.34 | zardinuk | hierarchical memory |
| 22:36.38 | bigdog_ut | oh |
| 22:37.02 | zardinuk | I feel like program structure naturally belongs in a hierarchy |
| 22:37.57 | zardinuk | I think the author is on to something |
| 22:38.04 | zardinuk | who knows though |
| 22:38.13 | bigdog_ut | the concept is very old though |
| 22:38.30 | zardinuk | yeah |
| 22:38.40 | zardinuk | in the book he contends that AI research has gone in the wrong direction |
| 22:38.49 | bigdog_ut | its very popular with parallel data |
| 22:39.47 | zardinuk | dont know what that is |
| 22:39.55 | bigdog_ut | and of course distributed-memory |
| 22:40.15 | bigdog_ut | very good read -> http://www.netlib.org/utk/lsi/pcwLSI/text/BOOK.html |
| 22:40.46 | zardinuk | is this the same thing as a neural net? |
| 22:40.51 | bigdog_ut | kinda |
| 22:41.01 | bigdog_ut | acm has some great reads on all the topcis |
| 22:41.32 | zardinuk | oooo caltech, I'll add it to my wishlist :) |
| 22:42.05 | zardinuk | "on intelligence" was sortof general, I'd like to get into the specifics of what they're researching more |
| 22:42.15 | zardinuk | but he makes some good theories |
| 22:42.26 | bigdog_ut | most of the good papers are in the acm archives |
| 22:42.28 | zardinuk | he thinks AI should be a lot simpler |
| 22:42.39 | zardinuk | sorta like the unified theory of intelligence |
| 22:42.48 | bigdog_ut | cool |
| 22:44.16 | bigdog_ut | cacheing memory with heirarchical is some good reading too |
| 22:45.04 | bigdog_ut | http://homepages.cwi.nl/~marcin/thesis/node13.html |
| 22:46.29 | zardinuk | you seem to be intrigued by the subject |
| 22:47.05 | bigdog_ut | yeah i have studied ai, neural nets, and parallel & distributed processing |
| 22:48.58 | bigdog_ut | best thing i ever did was get access to the acm docs |
| 22:49.03 | bigdog_ut | some really great reads |
| 22:49.54 | *** part/#uphpu fungus (~fungus@firebat.aros.net) |
| 22:57.18 | zardinuk | I have looked into these cacheing theories a little, decided it was too much to absorb and to leave that to the cpu |
| 22:57.36 | zardinuk | I have this gumstix microcontroller |
| 22:58.14 | zardinuk | its sweet, but theres a lot to learn about it |
| 22:58.36 | zardinuk | I probably know like 2% of what the processor is doing |
| 23:01.35 | macnewbold | is it Object oriented? |
| 23:01.47 | zardinuk | it runs linux |
| 23:02.01 | zardinuk | so, yeah |
| 23:09.35 | zardinuk | you'll see mac, one day the whole IT industry will be OO |
| 23:13.57 | zardinuk | is that an absolute? |
| 23:25.12 | macnewbold | if it isn't by now, it won't ever be... |
| 23:25.52 | macnewbold | as hard as some people have been pushing OO in the last couple of decades, it would already be there by now if it was going there |
| 23:29.00 | zardinuk | is that an absolute? |
| 23:29.09 | zardinuk | its getting there |
| 23:31.02 | zardinuk | I'd say its almost there |
| 23:31.07 | zardinuk | java and .NET |
| 23:31.18 | zardinuk | thats like at least half the industry |
| 23:31.42 | zardinuk | there are these boogers in the PHP world that are still fighting against the grain |
| 23:33.44 | zardinuk | the developers want to add a GOTO function to PHP 5.1 |
| 23:33.52 | zardinuk | er whatever the next dev release is |
| 23:35.36 | macnewbold | yeah, a goto function is really lame... as if the PHP community needs yet another way to write bad code |
| 23:38.01 | zardinuk | thats the voice of the procedural advocate, right there |
| 23:41.28 | *** join/#uphpu wps (~wade@65.73.113.199) |
| 23:41.30 | *** mode/#uphpu [+o wps] by ChanServ |