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| 01:24.32 | mindjuju | anybody here? |
| 01:24.42 | optikal | nope |
| 01:24.48 | mindjuju | sup! |
| 01:24.53 | optikal | not much |
| 01:25.00 | mindjuju | super quick database question |
| 01:25.12 | mindjuju | which is better, more tables in 1 database or more databases |
| 01:25.16 | mindjuju | or does it make a difference? |
| 01:26.41 | optikal | honestly im not sure, but unless youve got a buttload of tables, i really doubt it'll make a difference |
| 01:27.31 | mindjuju | does 30 or so meet the "buttload" criteria or is that some number like 90+ |
| 01:27.40 | mindjuju | :) |
| 01:31.33 | optikal | 30 tables? naah. |
| 01:32.04 | optikal | my shopping cart at work uses 94 tables.. and its real fast |
| 01:33.32 | mindjuju | way cool, thnx for the info! |
| 01:34.20 | optikal | np |
| 01:34.43 | optikal | If its really important, check with someone else tho pls.. id hate for me to be wrong.. but im not in my experiences, atleast. |
| 01:35.06 | tierra | I've done dbs with over 200 tables |
| 01:35.21 | tierra | I don't believe it makes a difference |
| 01:35.29 | optikal | werd. |
| 01:35.36 | optikal | <3 2nd opinions. =) |
| 01:38.09 | eco|w | I did a DB with exactly 30 tables and it only makes a difference with 30. If you have 30 in one DB it is incredibly slow. |
| 01:38.50 | optikal | heh |
| 01:38.59 | mindjuju | i'd better add 12 more tables to balance out the universe then |
| 01:39.01 | mindjuju | 42 |
| 01:39.11 | optikal | but of course |
| 02:00.35 | dataw0lf | I heard the movie sucked. |
| 02:00.48 | mindjuju | sadly, i heard that too |
| 02:01.08 | mindjuju | something about how they didn't think Douglas Adams wasn't funny enough and consequently rewrote everything |
| 02:01.39 | mindjuju | been a while since i read the book , but doesn't zaphod have 2 heads or 3? |
| 02:02.08 | mindjuju | anyways, i hear he has 3 arms in the move, but only one head |
| 02:02.13 | dataw0lf | 2 heads. |
| 02:02.33 | mindjuju | 2 heads, yeah, cause i remember he had conversations with himself, but couldn't remember how many heads |
| 02:03.15 | eco|w | He has two heads, just one is hidden in his neck or something like that. |
| 02:03.24 | eco|w | (In the movie) |
| 02:04.24 | mindjuju | hate to be a punk about it, but saw a picture of what marvin looks like |
| 02:04.36 | mindjuju | for me he looked more like bender from futurama, but depresed |
| 02:04.47 | mindjuju | long and lanky, hunched over |
| 02:08.25 | eco|w | He didn't really go into much detail about exactly what Marvin looked at so you can't really hold their interpretation against them. |
| 02:08.46 | dataw0lf | stop defending them. Disney is involved. The movie is screwed. |
| 02:09.45 | eco|w | I doubt it's screwed. Just not as good as it could have been (which is nothing new for Hollywood). |
| 02:09.46 | mindjuju | well, as long as they explain the Pan Galactic GargleBlaster, have the sceen where the missle turns into a whale and the other missle turns into a flower pot, i'll be happy |
| 02:10.12 | eco|w | They have the Whale section (you see it for a brief moment in the trailer). |
| 02:10.24 | eco|w | But yeah, the story is completely different |
| 02:10.43 | mindjuju | i wonder why they didn't just use the radio scripts? |
| 02:10.57 | mindjuju | if it was good enough for the BBC, surely it's good enough for Hollywood? |
| 02:11.36 | mindjuju | k, old skool test |
| 02:11.46 | mindjuju | who here remembers the hitchhiker game for DOS? |
| 02:12.58 | dataw0lf | mindjuju: well, Adams started on the movie script a while back. and I remember the DOS game. |
| 02:13.17 | mindjuju | awesome! I was really scared there for a moment |
| 02:13.56 | dataw0lf | Adams had been trying to get it produced for some time. |
| 02:14.52 | dataw0lf | My only real fear is that the social commentary rampant throughout Adams's dialogue will be watered down because of Disney. |
| 02:15.02 | mindjuju | it's been so long, I only remember that part where your trying to get the babelfish and if you press this one thing, an upper room cleaning robot gets it, if you do it some other way, a lower room cleaning robot gets it, but if you put the briefcase in front of something, then it flies into your ear. something like that |
| 02:15.18 | mindjuju | i remember that part cause it took me so long to figure out |
| 02:16.00 | mindjuju | you mean like all the exceprts from the Guide? |
| 02:16.09 | mindjuju | that explain half the book? |
| 02:33.25 | dataw0lf | ? |
| 02:33.38 | dataw0lf | as far as social commentary goes? the book(s) are full of it. |
| 02:35.10 | mindjuju | been a while since i read the book |
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| 04:26.03 | *** topic/#uphpu is Utah PHP Users Group | uphpu.org |
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| 13:50.29 | dataw0lf|w | http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/kuer/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=764544 |
| 13:50.33 | dataw0lf|w | heh |
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| 13:53.11 | mindjuju | that curious, though who ever thought LDS members were infallible? |
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| 15:41.19 | bigdog_ut | wow we got a full house in here |
| 15:44.23 | mindjuju | for old time's sake |
| 15:44.31 | mindjuju | ~melvin bigdog_ut |
| 15:44.34 | jbot | ACTION pulls bigdog_ut underwear up to the ceiling...and smiles |
| 15:44.40 | mindjuju | :) |
| 15:47.44 | bigdog_ut | ~lart mindjuju |
| 15:48.13 | mindjuju | one good turn deserves another |
| 15:48.19 | mindjuju | ~spank bigdog_ut |
| 15:48.21 | jbot | ACTION bends bigdog_ut over his knee and tatoos 'ibot' on bigdog_ut's pasty white buttocks. |
| 15:48.21 | bigdog_ut | no doubt |
| 15:50.20 | bigdog_ut | ~slap mindjuju |
| 15:50.22 | jbot | ACTION slaps mindjuju, keep your grubby fingers to yourself! |
| 15:50.26 | drip | hi bigdog_ut |
| 15:52.48 | macnewbold | g'day everyone... is it Friday yet? |
| 15:53.06 | bigdog_ut | i wish |
| 15:53.12 | drip | it's friday eve eve.. does that help? |
| 15:53.21 | dataw0lf|w | do you guys have any favorite PHP frameworks? I've slowly developed mine own, but I want to examine good alternatives. |
| 15:53.45 | bigdog_ut | i have looked but i have not found one...i do tend to use pear stuff more and more |
| 15:54.24 | bigdog_ut | the problem that i have seen with many is that they are either too weak or they are too bulky |
| 15:54.51 | dataw0lf|w | yeah, that seems to be the trend. |
| 15:55.35 | bigdog_ut | the problem is that they rely to much on a template system that is a beast |
| 16:00.12 | optikal- | wsup boys. |
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| 16:04.32 | lukfugl | anyone awake in here? |
| 16:04.54 | optikal- | yeah |
| 16:04.58 | lukfugl | I have another question on PHP |
| 16:05.05 | optikal- | shoot |
| 16:05.12 | lukfugl | How can I completely remove an entry out of an associative array? |
| 16:06.10 | lukfugl | e.g., I knw the key, and I don't want it to be there anymore. I tried setting $assoc[$key] = null; but when I print_r, the key slot is still there |
| 16:06.26 | lukfugl | that makes sense, but I can't seem to find any other candidate |
| 16:06.59 | dataw0lf|w | array_splice(), mayhap. |
| 16:07.09 | lukfugl | array_splice looks likely, but seems to always want an offset |
| 16:07.17 | lukfugl | how do I know what offset the key is at? |
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| 16:09.10 | dataw0lf|w | array_keys() ? |
| 16:09.38 | lukfugl | are those gauranteed to be the order of the internal representation though? |
| 16:09.53 | dataw0lf|w | the numeric keys should be. |
| 16:10.08 | lukfugl | dataw0lf|w: numeric keys? |
| 16:10.13 | dataw0lf|w | since PHP arrays are all mix and match between hashes and numerical indexes, etc, blah, blah. |
| 16:10.21 | bigdog_ut | unset it |
| 16:10.39 | lukfugl | bigdog_ut: unset( $assoc[$key] ); ? |
| 16:10.56 | dataw0lf|w | ah, yah that'll work. |
| 16:11.38 | bigdog_ut | lukfugl, yeah that will work for ya |
| 16:11.47 | lukfugl | yup, that's working |
| 16:11.49 | lukfugl | thanks bigdog_ut |
| 16:11.55 | bigdog_ut | np |
| 16:13.26 | dataw0lf|w | I hate PHP arrays. |
| 16:13.39 | bigdog_ut | i hate php objects even more |
| 16:13.48 | bigdog_ut | glorified arrays |
| 16:13.52 | lukfugl | my examples for today's presentation are finally done and functional |
| 16:13.53 | dataw0lf|w | point taken. |
| 16:16.06 | bigdog_ut | the more and more i use php the more and more it becomes a love/hate relationship |
| 16:20.43 | dataw0lf|w | bigdog_ut: isn't that the truth. I've been thinking of doing all my home / personal web dev in Python. |
| 16:20.56 | bigdog_ut | yeah likewise |
| 16:21.20 | dataw0lf|w | we should collaborate on a Python web framework. |
| 16:21.42 | bigdog_ut | taht would be cool too |
| 16:22.02 | bigdog_ut | one thing that i think many frameworks lack is the xml technologies |
| 16:22.15 | bigdog_ut | if you incorporate those u will have a killer framework |
| 16:23.18 | dataw0lf|w | Agreed. |
| 16:24.12 | bigdog_ut | ive always wanted to do a framework that uses xml for the caching |
| 16:24.33 | bigdog_ut | instead of caching full pages u cache sections of pages |
| 16:25.27 | macnewbold | lukfugl: did you find out about unset() yet? That's how you delete from an assoc. array. |
| 16:25.38 | bigdog_ut | have it all driven with css and xml |
| 16:25.56 | macnewbold | oh, nevermind. |
| 16:26.02 | dataw0lf|w | bigdog_ut: I've been thinking on similar lines. |
| 16:26.05 | bigdog_ut | that will give you are really nice mvc |
| 16:26.15 | macnewbold | guess I gotta read the whole thing before I start commenting :) |
| 16:26.47 | bigdog_ut | better late than never |
| 16:28.27 | bigdog_ut | jbot, topic list |
| 16:28.34 | bigdog_ut | jbot, topic #uphpu list |
| 16:28.56 | bigdog_ut | ~topic list |
| 16:29.23 | bigdog_ut | ~topic history |
| 16:30.01 | bigdog_ut | ~topic add Discussion on frameworks |
| 16:30.01 | jbot | error: you do not have enough flags for that. (T required) |
| 16:30.19 | bigdog_ut | ~topic #uphpu add "Discussion on frameworks" |
| 16:30.40 | bigdog_ut | ~topic add "Discussion on frameworks" |
| 16:30.40 | jbot | error: you do not have enough flags for that. (T required) |
| 16:31.43 | bigdog_ut | ~topic list |
| 16:41.48 | macnewbold | hehe |
| 16:41.57 | *** topic/#uphpu by macnewbold -> Discussion on Frameworks | Utah PHP Users Group | uphpu.org |
| 16:42.17 | macnewbold | I'm more a fan of simpler frameworks that are more generally applicable |
| 16:42.43 | macnewbold | I use HTML and CSS on every project I do, but XML would be a rare thing, since it's way overkill for most of them |
| 16:43.14 | macnewbold | for me, the framework is about giving me something that has most of the common stuff, and makes it faster to do the project |
| 16:43.52 | macnewbold | simple is good, and if it's not general enough, then it doesn't save me much time, cause I've got to re-customize it all on every project |
| 16:49.12 | bigdog_ut | having soemthing create file or functionality is not really a framework then |
| 16:49.15 | bigdog_ut | it is a tool |
| 16:49.38 | bigdog_ut | framework is something that allows you to create components that run within a base component set |
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| 16:55.25 | bigdog_ut | now are you guys talking about creating a tool that would set up a project with basic functionality |
| 16:57.45 | macnewbold | I'm not talking about a tool |
| 16:58.06 | macnewbold | maybe framework isn't the right word, but I think it's one of the more applicable ones |
| 17:00.23 | macnewbold | I'm talking about a set of stuff (files, database schemas or tables maybe, etc.) that you can use to start a project |
| 17:00.43 | macnewbold | they provide some basic stuff that you'd be somewhat likely to use in almost any project |
| 17:01.02 | macnewbold | maybe part of it would be support for forcing specific pages to SSL mode, |
| 17:01.17 | macnewbold | or a set of common functions that do cool things that you use often, |
| 17:01.26 | macnewbold | or a generic user login system |
| 17:01.38 | macnewbold | or a generic site administration system |
| 17:02.08 | macnewbold | and there would be different pieces you could use or leave out on any given project |
| 17:02.20 | jsmith | Generic user administration |
| 17:02.48 | macnewbold | I can't tell you how many sites I've set up that call for a lot of the same things |
| 17:02.48 | jsmith | So, you're saying you want to build another CMS? |
| 17:02.49 | bigdog_ut | you are talking a hybrid of two items |
| 17:03.08 | bigdog_ut | you want a tool and a framework |
| 17:03.18 | macnewbold | not a CMS, though the one I personally use has many features you'd expect in a CMS |
| 17:03.31 | macnewbold | though it's more a web app skeleton than a CMS |
| 17:03.38 | macnewbold | a CMS is designed to be your whole site |
| 17:03.51 | bigdog_ut | a framework provides built in features like db connection, authentication, user management |
| 17:03.53 | macnewbold | this would be designed to be something from which you build a site, and it isn't necessarily the whole thing |
| 17:03.59 | macnewbold | but can be easily integrated |
| 17:04.01 | jsmith | I'm for it... |
| 17:04.06 | jsmith | Let's build one! |
| 17:04.10 | macnewbold | bigdog_ut: right |
| 17:04.11 | bigdog_ut | that would be the tool part |
| 17:04.16 | bigdog_ut | that builds stuff for you |
| 17:04.19 | macnewbold | what's the tool part? |
| 17:04.30 | bigdog_ut | the part that builds the skeleton |
| 17:04.44 | macnewbold | I'm not talking about making a program to build a skeleton, |
| 17:04.55 | macnewbold | I'm talking about _us_ building a skeleton |
| 17:04.55 | bigdog_ut | drip and i had to use one of those types of tools at our last job |
| 17:05.01 | macnewbold | that we use as part of the framework |
| 17:05.06 | macnewbold | you worked with drip? that's cool. |
| 17:05.10 | bigdog_ut | yeah |
| 17:05.23 | drip | yeah, the poor guy |
| 17:05.38 | drip | of course, i could spit on him from here. |
| 17:05.45 | drip | =) |
| 17:06.36 | bigdog_ut | no doubt |
| 17:06.49 | bigdog_ut | drip they want beanbuilder for php |
| 17:06.58 | drip | lol... i noticed. |
| 17:07.10 | drip | bean builder IS the future of java bean development |
| 17:07.13 | drip | lmao |
| 17:07.20 | bigdog_ut | no doubt |
| 17:07.54 | drip | as long as you don't EVER use any many-many relationships in your database |
| 17:08.00 | drip | or want it to be easily maintained |
| 17:08.01 | drip | or work |
| 17:08.04 | bigdog_ut | yeah |
| 17:08.28 | bigdog_ut | the issues that we faced with type of framework is that it is hard to customize it for each project |
| 17:09.16 | bigdog_ut | i think a framework would be good where you provide functionality that is needed like db access, user management, error handling, and authentication |
| 17:09.31 | drip | yes |
| 17:09.58 | bigdog_ut | but the key is to be able to plug in different components into it to do stuff |
| 17:10.18 | bigdog_ut | macnewbold, have you guys started discussing this in detail |
| 17:10.41 | macnewbold | just what you've seen on the email list mostly... I tried to send out the ideas wps and I discussed in person |
| 17:12.17 | bigdog_ut | did you guys talk about something like a site generator that contained a framework? |
| 17:12.39 | macnewbold | no site generators |
| 17:12.55 | macnewbold | I must have accidentally said something that gave that impression, but we're not building a site generator |
| 17:13.19 | macnewbold | we're building a skeleton for a site, based around a framework we build |
| 17:13.34 | macnewbold | you copy the skeleton and either copy or include the framework stuff, |
| 17:13.42 | macnewbold | and start hacking on it to build your new site |
| 17:14.03 | macnewbold | hopefully "hacking on it" is primarily "adding to it" and "filling in design and content" |
| 17:14.42 | bigdog_ut | define site skeleton...to me that is the same as generated |
| 17:20.20 | macnewbold | _we_ would build it, not build a _program_ to build it. If we're the ones generating it, I wouldn't call that generated at all. |
| 17:20.33 | macnewbold | but maybe it is the same thing, depending on your definition of generated |
| 17:21.09 | macnewbold | we'd make some files that get included, for defs, funcitons, configuration, header/footer, a bit of template-like stuff maybe |
| 17:21.23 | macnewbold | and someone would use those files as part of their site |
| 17:22.10 | macnewbold | did you guys all hear that Pete Ashdown, XMission president, is running for senate against Orrin Hatch in 2006? www.pashdown.org , and IRC to ircd.xmission.com in #pashdown |
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| 17:23.09 | bigdog_ut | the that is more like a framework if you have components that they use, but if you create any files then that would be a generator type tool |
| 17:23.41 | fungus | yup, it could be very cool. |
| 17:24.09 | fungus | I just found tcpflow, and fell in love. |
| 17:24.44 | fungus | much easier than tcpdump -X |
| 17:33.54 | macnewbold | we would give them files (i.e. source code) they can use, not a program that creates any files for them |
| 17:34.15 | macnewbold | that's what makes me feel like its not a generator. Cause it doesn't generate anything. It's source code for a web site. |
| 17:36.22 | bigdog_ut | that would be cool, if the framework provides functionality that is robust enough |
| 17:44.40 | optikal- | Whats everyones favorite website to get wallpapers at? |
| 17:46.49 | fungus | http://www.deviantart.com/ http://hubblesite.org/gallery/ |
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| 17:56.33 | macnewbold | optikal: digitalblasphemy.com |
| 17:56.58 | optikal- | thanks =) |
| 17:57.00 | macnewbold | I've got a bunch of his, and a perl script to rotate them randomly and at random times. |
| 17:58.10 | tierra | I'm not a fan of his work |
| 17:58.20 | tierra | for wallpapers anyway |
| 17:58.29 | tierra | they contrast way too much |
| 17:58.53 | tierra | I like backgrounds that blend into my desktop |
| 17:58.58 | tierra | like hot womenz |
| 17:59.51 | optikal- | tierra: amen |
| 18:00.00 | optikal- | Thats all I've had on my background for some time.. womenz. |
| 18:00.18 | optikal- | I change it every Friday or Monday, whichever I remember to do it on. |
| 18:07.13 | tierra | I usually either have a background from skins.be or some graphic work from real digital artists that don't put out junk like http://www.c82.net/portfolio.php - http://pixelcatalyst.plastiqueweb.com/wallpapers/index.html - http://www.wirestyle.com/ - http://www.aw8.net/aw-8.2/ |
| 18:07.59 | optikal- | tierra, i knew you'd give me what i needed.. you always do. ;) |
| 18:08.58 | tierra | =) |
| 18:10.29 | *** join/#uphpu dataw0lf|w (~dataw0lf@66.219.227.114) |
| 18:10.42 | tierra | Depthcore usually has some decent stuff as well: http://www.depthcore.com/ |
| 18:19.49 | fungus | http://www.manpaper.com/ |
| 18:20.13 | tierra | thank you fungus |
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| 19:04.06 | bigdog_ut | so we done with the framework discussion? |
| 19:10.34 | macnewbold | dunno :) |
| 19:11.11 | bigdog_ut | u could get some really good ideas from this group of hackers |
| 19:11.36 | bigdog_ut | now that mindjuju has gracied us with his presence |
| 19:12.57 | macnewbold | yep |
| 19:17.54 | bigdog_ut | have you discussed some of the components that you want to develop for the framework? |
| 19:46.08 | jsmith | bigdog_ut: I'll throw out ideas if you want me to |
| 19:46.25 | bigdog_ut | sure |
| 19:47.29 | jsmith | Database abstraction -- make sure we're using it *AND* that we're using it to its full potential -- (in other words, don't use MySQL-specific queries in your database abstraction layer) |
| 19:47.44 | jsmith | User login, logout, permissioning, and the associated management. |
| 19:48.26 | jsmith | The framework should make it so that you can change one flag and have the site "administratively down" for maintenance, etc. |
| 19:49.53 | jsmith | It would be good if the framework was something you copy over, and then configure it for your particular database through a web interface -- this isn't necessary, just handy |
| 19:50.19 | jsmith-mtg | (back in a few) |
| 20:29.44 | bigdog_ut | i think a great component would be configuration management |
| 20:33.37 | jsmith-mtg | bigdog_ut: Yes, I agree |
| 20:33.58 | bigdog_ut | i hate all db abstraction out there |
| 20:34.05 | bigdog_ut | i like dbx in php that works great |
| 20:34.17 | jsmith-mtg | I haven't tried it... I'm a long time ADOdb bigot. |
| 20:34.20 | bigdog_ut | i think sql abstraction should be a huge component |
| 20:34.32 | jsmith-mtg | Yes |
| 21:06.39 | *** topic/#uphpu by bigdog_ut -> Discussion on Frameworks | Utah PHP Users Group | uphpu.org |
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