| 01:03.04 | macnewbold | zardinuk: reply sent now :) |
| 01:03.24 | macnewbold | its a good thing we're all friends... |
| 01:03.37 | dataw0lf | OR YOU'D KILL EACH OTHER OMGZ! |
| 01:06.06 | macnewbold | ~lart dataw0lf for overreacting ;) |
| 01:06.32 | dataw0lf | OMGZ NOW I MUST KILLZ JBOT |
| 01:06.49 | dataw0lf | ~lart himself |
| 01:06.55 | macnewbold | ~lart dataw0lf for not getting the message the first time |
| 01:07.02 | macnewbold | ~botsnack |
| 01:07.02 | jbot | macnewbold: thanks |
| 01:07.04 | macnewbold | ~cookie |
| 01:07.34 | fungus | ~macnewbold |
| 01:07.35 | jbot | well, macnewbold is professional up front and a party in the back |
| 01:07.46 | macnewbold | ~fungus |
| 01:07.48 | jbot | i heard fungus is Kinda smelly, but grows on you |
| 01:07.55 | fungus | jbot, macnewbold is also a cookie monster |
| 01:07.56 | jbot | fungus: okay |
| 01:08.03 | macnewbold | ~brownie |
| 01:08.09 | macnewbold | ~stew |
| 01:08.10 | jbot | i guess stew is great when made with macnewbold |
| 01:08.22 | macnewbold | hm |
| 01:08.30 | macnewbold | I'll have to fix that one of these days... |
| 01:08.37 | macnewbold | time for /me to head home... |
| 01:08.39 | macnewbold | ~rejoice |
| 01:08.40 | jbot | No, damit!!! |
| 01:08.45 | macnewbold | ! |
| 01:08.46 | macnewbold | wow |
| 01:08.49 | macnewbold | that was unexpected |
| 01:08.51 | macnewbold | :) |
| 01:08.51 | dataw0lf | ~lart macnewbold |
| 01:09.00 | macnewbold | ~rejoice please? |
| 01:09.01 | jbot | No, damit!!! |
| 01:09.04 | macnewbold | hm |
| 01:09.09 | macnewbold | ~praise quitting time |
| 01:09.11 | jbot | All hail quitting time! |
| 01:09.22 | macnewbold | ~w00t dataw0lf |
| 01:09.24 | jbot | stfu, dataw0lf |
| 01:09.28 | macnewbold | oh |
| 01:09.29 | macnewbold | wow |
| 01:09.35 | dataw0lf | whistles |
| 01:09.36 | macnewbold | I didn't know that did that... |
| 01:10.13 | macnewbold | "g'night all!" |
| 01:10.32 | dataw0lf | night night |
| 01:59.13 | *** join/#uphpu usynic (~synic@c-67-172-242-219.client.comcast.net) |
| 03:34.01 | *** join/#uphpu mindjuju (user@207.173.210.167) |
| 04:32.27 | *** join/#uphpu bigdog_ut (~bigdog_ut@70-56-97-130.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 04:32.27 | *** mode/#uphpu [+o bigdog_ut] by ChanServ |
| 04:35.16 | bigdog_ut | whatz up all |
| 04:35.36 | mindjuju | ~melvin bigdog_ut |
| 04:35.38 | jbot | ACTION pulls bigdog_ut underwear up to the ceiling...and smiles |
| 04:35.57 | bigdog_ut | ~fishflap mindjuju |
| 04:36.13 | mindjuju | oops, to many f |
| 04:36.19 | mindjuju | ~abuse bigdog_ut |
| 04:36.21 | jbot | ACTION smacks bigdog_ut across the face. "Take that, Bitch!" |
| 04:36.26 | bigdog_ut | ~fishslap mindjuju |
| 04:36.28 | jbot | ACTION slaps mindjuju up side the head with a wet fish. |
| 04:36.33 | bigdog_ut | ~whack mindjuju |
| 04:36.35 | jbot | ACTION whacks mindjuju upside the head. |
| 04:36.49 | mindjuju | ~punch bigdog_ut |
| 04:36.51 | jbot | ACTION hits bigdog_ut like the hot kiss and the end of a wet fist |
| 04:37.10 | bigdog_ut | ~whaleslap mindjuju |
| 04:37.12 | jbot | ACTION slaps mindjuju upside and over the head with one freakishly huge killer whale named hugh |
| 04:37.27 | mindjuju | nice! did you write that one? |
| 04:37.36 | bigdog_ut | no just the melvin |
| 04:37.47 | mindjuju | i got a new job with no IRC access |
| 04:38.03 | mindjuju | been trying to figure a way to pipe it in, but don't want to mess with a good thing |
| 04:38.22 | bigdog_ut | can you go out with ssh? |
| 04:38.36 | mindjuju | yeah, datawolf sent me an article about that |
| 04:38.57 | bigdog_ut | port forwarding is all you need...i do it with everything even my web stuff |
| 04:39.25 | mindjuju | it's really tempting, especially with that ghostzilla browser |
| 04:39.41 | mindjuju | to help hide it (that's if i go web based) |
| 04:39.42 | bigdog_ut | never heard of ghostzilla |
| 04:39.57 | mindjuju | it's a browser that some how looks like a legit app |
| 04:40.09 | mindjuju | didn't actually look at the screenshots, just read the doc |
| 04:40.13 | bigdog_ut | oh cool i will need to check it out |
| 04:40.21 | mindjuju | yeah, beauty concept! |
| 04:41.13 | bigdog_ut | yeah...but does it hide your traffic? |
| 04:41.52 | mindjuju | no, i'd need to use the putty with ssh on my computer here at home (has public ip) |
| 04:42.03 | bigdog_ut | yeha |
| 04:42.12 | bigdog_ut | mindjuju: why u using windows? |
| 04:42.44 | mindjuju | good question. Have a legit copy of win 2k advanced server |
| 04:42.49 | mindjuju | it's pretty beefy |
| 04:42.57 | bigdog_ut | but did you buy it? |
| 04:42.59 | bigdog_ut | lol |
| 04:43.13 | bigdog_ut | i have a couple legit copies of that and some other ones |
| 04:43.26 | mindjuju | used to telecommute for a petro chem company in Houston |
| 04:43.35 | mindjuju | I needed the sandbox |
| 04:43.37 | bigdog_ut | and you used that for it? |
| 04:43.40 | bigdog_ut | oh cool |
| 04:43.51 | mindjuju | they keep me on retainer though they've hired somebody in house |
| 04:44.12 | mindjuju | I left on really good terms and worked super hard for them while I was there |
| 04:44.31 | mindjuju | so anyways, have the software so why not use it? |
| 04:44.49 | mindjuju | also, even though i've got good DOS experience, haven't bothered to pick up a Linux booka |
| 04:44.51 | bigdog_ut | yeah...we used it for mulitcasting traffice |
| 04:45.06 | bigdog_ut | so you dont use any linux? |
| 04:45.10 | mindjuju | i should, just been lazy |
| 04:45.20 | bigdog_ut | man that is tough |
| 04:45.25 | bigdog_ut | i cant live without it |
| 04:45.28 | mindjuju | has anybody seen a rock i can hide behind? |
| 04:45.32 | bigdog_ut | makes development so much easier |
| 04:45.44 | mindjuju | yeah, my last job we had linux server |
| 04:45.54 | mindjuju | that's where I learned PHP |
| 04:45.54 | bigdog_ut | i mean software development is just so much easier it is unreal |
| 04:47.20 | mindjuju | They took me knowing I didn't know a lick of PHP, I studied like crazy while I was there and look at me now, some 2 1/2 months later |
| 04:47.29 | mindjuju | PHP is really an easy language to pick up |
| 04:47.42 | mindjuju | really powerful with intutive structure and commands |
| 04:48.09 | mindjuju | ya'll may never forgive me for saying this, but the syntax is very similar to VBScript which I write |
| 04:49.13 | bigdog_ut | no i wont forgive or forget |
| 04:49.27 | bigdog_ut | yeah php is easy to learn i have been using it since version 2 |
| 04:49.58 | bigdog_ut | i remember waiting for version 3 to come out and then version 4 and now version 5 |
| 04:50.02 | bigdog_ut | wow that is crazy |
| 04:50.25 | mindjuju | k, i'm just going to come clean on this... not going to hide in shame |
| 04:50.36 | mindjuju | I'm actually researching plugging PHP into IIS6 |
| 04:51.02 | bigdog_ut | oh that is pretty easy to do...on windows i dont mind using iis if i have too |
| 04:51.25 | mindjuju | see, that's where I am. The new company wants to stay with Microsoft |
| 04:51.40 | mindjuju | We just need PHP for some apps that are already there |
| 04:51.57 | mindjuju | though the new stuff is going to be written in ASP.NET and C# |
| 04:52.15 | mindjuju | So now I've got to find a C# book. |
| 04:52.32 | mindjuju | It'll be good though, at home I'm starting to write a photo album for my wife in PHP |
| 04:52.43 | mindjuju | that way, I won't forget the synatx |
| 04:53.07 | mindjuju | well, photo album, file uploader, auto emailer, etc |
| 04:53.30 | bigdog_ut | oh sounds cool...man asp and c# sucks |
| 04:54.28 | mindjuju | have you had to program in C# or just seen some of the functionality / coding? |
| 04:54.40 | mindjuju | I haven't really seen either though I need to get up to speed pretty quick |
| 04:54.56 | bigdog_ut | seen it...i have reviewed aps.net and it really sucks |
| 04:58.17 | bigdog_ut | i do alot of php and java |
| 04:58.22 | bigdog_ut | which is kinda funny |
| 04:58.27 | bigdog_ut | and ruby and python |
| 04:59.01 | mindjuju | Have you had any problems using PHP with IIS? |
| 04:59.17 | mindjuju | I installed it and the test doc i used work fine, but PHPmyadmin didn't seem to work |
| 04:59.28 | mindjuju | though only had a few minutes to play with it before I had to leave for the day |
| 05:00.34 | bigdog_ut | what version of php you have installed? |
| 05:01.23 | mindjuju | 4.3.10 |
| 05:02.10 | bigdog_ut | that should work, have you modified the setting to connect to the database |
| 05:02.40 | mindjuju | I didn't and mysql administrator connects just fine with the account I created and password |
| 05:02.52 | mindjuju | i found this article and was going to do it tomorrow when I got back to the box |
| 05:02.55 | mindjuju | http://www.benmardesign.com/IIS_PHP_MYSQL_setup/php_setup.html |
| 05:03.07 | bigdog_ut | yeha |
| 05:03.21 | mindjuju | think I should just make the jump to 5? |
| 05:03.36 | mindjuju | PHP 5, that is |
| 05:05.14 | bigdog_ut | no it might not work with php5 |
| 05:08.21 | mindjuju | oh really? bummer |
| 05:08.44 | bigdog_ut | yeah not sure though, perhaps they have coded for php5 now |
| 05:09.08 | mindjuju | i saw some code in myadmin that *seemed* to be for PHP5, but not sure |
| 05:09.13 | mindjuju | didn't have much time to look at it |
| 05:09.35 | bigdog_ut | yeah i am not sure...i am a postgresql man...now that is a database |
| 05:12.15 | bigdog_ut | pgsql is a far superior db i think |
| 05:12.40 | mindjuju | than mysql? never used pgsql |
| 05:12.49 | mindjuju | what does it have that mysql doesn't? |
| 05:14.38 | bigdog_ut | triggers and stored procedures |
| 05:15.06 | bigdog_ut | and other features for a complex database |
| 05:15.12 | bigdog_ut | plpgsql |
| 05:15.19 | mindjuju | love stored procedures.... used to use ms sql 2k |
| 05:15.49 | bigdog_ut | yeah...that is killer development and mysql does not have it now..in future versions it will |
| 05:15.57 | bigdog_ut | but pgsql has had it for years now |
| 05:16.05 | bigdog_ut | very well developed |
| 05:57.31 | mindjuju | goodnight all! |
| 05:59.25 | dataw0lf | sup bigdog_ut |
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| 06:13.49 | *** join/#uphpu jbot (ibot@apt.bot.TimRiker.active.supporter.pdpc) |
| 06:13.49 | *** topic/#uphpu is Utah PHP Users Group | uphpu.org |
| 06:45.06 | *** join/#uphpu jbot (ibot@apt.bot.TimRiker.active.supporter.pdpc) |
| 06:45.06 | *** topic/#uphpu is Utah PHP Users Group | uphpu.org |
| 08:57.48 | *** join/#uphpu tierra|h (~tierra@c-24-10-173-249.client.comcast.net) |
| 15:21.13 | macnewbold | morning, all! :) Happy Friday! |
| 15:21.16 | macnewbold | ~celebrate |
| 15:21.17 | jbot | ACTION lights off 3 tons of fireworks |
| 15:41.16 | *** join/#uphpu drewbono (~andrew@c-24-2-90-131.client.comcast.net) |
| 15:50.53 | tbye | TGIF mac! |
| 16:08.18 | *** join/#uphpu optikal (~optikal@67-40-118-81.slkc.uswest.net) |
| 16:50.55 | *** join/#uphpu tierra|w (~tierra@dsl093-225-126.slc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 16:56.23 | macnewbold | ~tgif |
| 16:56.24 | jbot | well, tgif is Thank Goodness It's Friday! or, some say it has something to do with a vector-based draw tool at http://bourbon.cs.umd.edu:8001/tgif/ |
| 16:57.02 | *** join/#uphpu bigdog_ut (~bigdog_ut@166.70.34.182) |
| 16:57.02 | *** mode/#uphpu [+o bigdog_ut] by ChanServ |
| 16:57.43 | bigdog_ut | top of the mornin' to ya all |
| 16:57.52 | synic | hey bigdog_ut |
| 16:57.53 | optikal | yeah.. for usre. |
| 16:57.57 | optikal | *sure. |
| 16:57.59 | optikal | its friday. ) |
| 16:58.07 | optikal | hm. batteries must be low on the keybaord. |
| 16:58.11 | bigdog_ut | and my work is just starting |
| 17:03.48 | macnewbold | jbot: seen wps |
| 17:03.49 | jbot | wps <~wps@71.32.230.91> was last seen on IRC in channel #uphpu, 19h 44m 46s ago, saying: 'jbot, how many songs do you know?'. |
| 17:03.58 | macnewbold | doh... |
| 17:04.10 | bigdog_ut | wps is working |
| 17:04.13 | bigdog_ut | he has a new job |
| 17:04.21 | macnewbold | the mailing list archives are back, but don't have anything since the 8th of feb... |
| 17:04.26 | macnewbold | bigdog_ut: really? That's great! |
| 17:04.27 | macnewbold | where at? |
| 17:05.04 | bigdog_ut | some company in provo i believe...he has been working alot though |
| 17:08.41 | macnewbold | cool |
| 17:08.49 | macnewbold | better a lot than not at all, usually :) |
| 17:09.05 | bigdog_ut | yeah |
| 17:09.11 | bigdog_ut | money is always a good thing right? |
| 17:37.17 | *** join/#uphpu wps (~wps@71.32.230.91) |
| 17:37.21 | *** mode/#uphpu [+o wps] by ChanServ |
| 17:48.53 | bigdog_ut | ~tell macnewbold wps is here |
| 17:49.34 | macnewbold | yeah, I found wps |
| 17:49.39 | macnewbold | he approved my article :) |
| 17:49.41 | macnewbold | ~uphpu |
| 17:50.05 | macnewbold | I was just going to tell him about the mailing list archives not having anything since feb 8 |
| 17:50.12 | macnewbold | but I sent email instead |
| 17:50.22 | macnewbold | so wps, how's the new job? First day, or did you start earlier this week? |
| 17:50.34 | wps | been here two weeks now |
| 17:51.07 | macnewbold | really? That's great. last I heard you were still looking. |
| 17:51.49 | macnewbold | so is it design mostly, or php stuff too? |
| 17:53.11 | wps | finally moved into my real workstation this morning |
| 17:53.13 | wps | both |
| 17:53.19 | wps | I will be wearing many hats |
| 17:53.27 | wps | design, actionscript, and PHP |
| 18:04.27 | macnewbold | actionscript as in flash? |
| 18:04.34 | wps | yes |
| 18:04.44 | macnewbold | if you're doing php-generated flash or actionscript, you'll need to present it in a meeting soon :) |
| 18:04.58 | wps | no, not PHP generated |
| 18:12.13 | *** join/#uphpu wps_ (~wps@71.32.230.91) |
| 18:16.26 | macnewbold | wow... two wps's today :) We must have been really good this week... |
| 18:20.47 | wps_ | weird, wonder why I am in here twice |
| 18:32.08 | *** join/#uphpu fungus (~fungus@firebat.aros.net) |
| 18:40.03 | *** join/#uphpu zardinuk (~jeff@vulcan.americom.com) |
| 18:44.42 | macnewbold | Hi Jeff... |
| 18:44.57 | macnewbold | so have I convinced you yet that SSL is better/easier yet? ;) |
| 18:45.15 | zardinuk | hey my mail server is broken :( |
| 18:46.52 | tierra|w | you should fix it |
| 18:46.56 | tierra|w | =) |
| 18:47.14 | zardinuk | im a retard |
| 18:47.37 | zardinuk | I set up an account for my brother and his login was danny:danny |
| 18:47.42 | zardinuk | some guy in romania logs in and runs some IRC bot or something |
| 18:47.49 | zardinuk | after an unsuccessful root exploit |
| 18:48.08 | zardinuk | so like an idiot I go and play around with his exploits |
| 18:49.16 | zardinuk | and I ran one as root, thought I was logged in as jeff |
| 18:49.36 | zardinuk | it tried to install a trojan in a bunch of files in bin, but just ended up corrupting them all |
| 18:50.50 | zardinuk | so its working now but I lost about 12 hours of mail |
| 18:51.39 | tierra|w | heh... that sucks |
| 18:51.50 | zardinuk | what did you have to say to my email mac? |
| 18:52.12 | zardinuk | hah yeah I hacked my own box |
| 18:53.16 | zardinuk | I'm gonna redo my partitions and restrict bin to ro over the weekend |
| 18:53.53 | zardinuk | as a safeguard against my own carelessness |
| 18:54.19 | *** join/#uphpu wps (~wps@71.32.230.91) |
| 18:54.22 | *** mode/#uphpu [+o wps] by ChanServ |
| 19:01.05 | zardinuk | macnewbold |
| 19:03.33 | macnewbold | yeah? |
| 19:03.35 | macnewbold | oh |
| 19:04.03 | zardinuk | whatd you have to say? |
| 19:04.10 | macnewbold | if I forward it will you get it? |
| 19:04.14 | zardinuk | yeah |
| 19:04.16 | macnewbold | k |
| 19:04.26 | macnewbold | msg me the addr to send to, and I'll send you a copy |
| 19:05.28 | zardinuk | how many more years before you embrace javascript like your own child |
| 19:06.10 | macnewbold | "No, You're Not My Father! I'll Never Love You!" |
| 19:06.15 | macnewbold | ha! |
| 19:07.52 | zardinuk | javascript wants to spread the love |
| 19:09.24 | macnewbold | javascript wants to spread a lot more than love |
| 19:09.31 | macnewbold | like diseases and stuff |
| 19:10.39 | zardinuk | oh my god |
| 19:17.57 | dataw0lf | http://dataw0lf.org/CommentsView.php?News=1 |
| 19:18.04 | dataw0lf | omgz someone tried to hax0r me with javascript!1! |
| 19:33.25 | zardinuk | oh no |
| 19:33.34 | zardinuk | they should call it devilscript |
| 20:33.30 | *** join/#uphpu jakea (~jakea@jamestkirk.byu.edu) |
| 20:34.30 | zardinuk | so mac are you ready to surrender? I have you cornered! |
| 20:38.05 | zardinuk | my javascript intensive coding style is superior to your measly HTML |
| 20:39.18 | fungus | Your JS may do neat stuff for normal people, but you are alienating many people with disabilities. Shame on you. |
| 20:39.37 | zardinuk | lol, what people with disabilities? |
| 20:39.46 | zardinuk | the BeOS people? |
| 20:40.12 | optikal | haha |
| 20:40.18 | fungus | Visually impaired, physically impaired, etc. |
| 20:40.20 | optikal | BeOS RLES |
| 20:40.58 | zardinuk | fungus: I could alienate them without javascript, and I could include them with javascript, that doesn't really matter |
| 20:41.30 | zardinuk | I could play little sounds like "Enter your name here" onFocus |
| 20:41.48 | zardinuk | if there is a validation error say "your zip code is only... 4... digits" |
| 20:41.52 | fungus | http://www.webaim.org/techniques/javascript/ |
| 20:42.05 | optikal | maan. did someone say that the end of this week was torture week? all this javascript talk! |
| 20:42.05 | optikal | =P |
| 20:42.17 | fungus | These people already have screen readers and such. Your fancy js, will break it. |
| 20:42.20 | zardinuk | so there you go fungus... your argument is nill |
| 20:42.45 | zardinuk | or my javascript could enhance it, your argument can't hold weight |
| 20:43.01 | zardinuk | I could do almost anything in javascript, thats the beauty of it |
| 20:43.17 | zardinuk | incompatible browsers is the only real argument and that is weak at best |
| 20:43.18 | fungus | You are incorrect. Most visually impaired people use special screen readers which do not understand javascript. |
| 20:44.04 | fungus | Unless you use your JS in such a way to make it optional. |
| 20:44.06 | zardinuk | assume that I am using javascript validation, if I didn't explicity code for blind/deaf people they would hear a beep when there is a validation error |
| 20:44.29 | zardinuk | even if I am using javascript to document.write the entire document, the screen reader should be able to hear that |
| 20:44.38 | zardinuk | have you ever tried the screen reader? It blows |
| 20:44.54 | zardinuk | it can't read some stuff regardless |
| 20:45.00 | fungus | Yes I have. and if you don't code your site to allow for it. You blow! |
| 20:45.32 | zardinuk | hah, ok |
| 20:46.03 | zardinuk | I took a class once, it was a cisco CCNA class, and cisco has a whole online curriculum of flash learning tools |
| 20:46.27 | zardinuk | I turned on the screen reader to see how it handled it and it read aloud "your browser does not support flash" |
| 20:47.07 | zardinuk | so do you tear down your very nice flash learning app for 1 or 2 blind people who think they can be effective network technicians? |
| 20:47.10 | fungus | That is one example of very bad site design. |
| 20:47.20 | fungus | YES! |
| 20:47.22 | zardinuk | it was an excellent learning tool |
| 20:47.35 | fungus | At least make an alternative, if flash is disabled. |
| 20:47.51 | zardinuk | why? |
| 20:48.10 | zardinuk | what if no blind person EVER visits your site? |
| 20:48.15 | fungus | Because people with disabilities are people too. And if you disagree, you are the scum of the earth. |
| 20:48.50 | zardinuk | so what if you're the only website on the net that is blind accessible |
| 20:49.06 | zardinuk | no blind people use the net because only about 5% of the sites out there are usable |
| 20:49.27 | dataw0lf | if you're worrying about support for blind people you got too much time on your hands anyways. |
| 20:49.29 | zardinuk | but the 100,000 other people who visit your site appreciate the response times |
| 20:49.29 | fungus | You are using incorrect stats to prove that you are an asshole. |
| 20:49.56 | fungus | Plus it is a federal law. |
| 20:50.02 | fungus | http://www.webaim.org/coordination/law/us/508/ |
| 20:50.40 | zardinuk | I agree with dataw0lf, I dont have time to be catering to blind people... they can call |
| 20:51.08 | tierra|w | something like that should be done on the client side.... |
| 20:51.16 | fungus | It isn't that hard to make your site accessible. You just have to do it, and be a good citizen. |
| 20:51.16 | zardinuk | I'd say thats the ultimate generosity, opening up your phone lines to the blind |
| 20:51.22 | tierra|w | specialized browser software... |
| 20:51.36 | dataw0lf | tierra|w: yes, but your site has to be able to communicate to those. |
| 20:51.39 | zardinuk | yeah why can't the client read javascript alerts? |
| 20:51.42 | dataw0lf | tierra|w: that's what their talking about. |
| 20:51.43 | zardinuk | should you not use images at all fungus? |
| 20:52.00 | tierra|w | oh, I see |
| 20:52.02 | fungus | You should use images, but provide Alt tags for example. |
| 20:52.24 | zardinuk | so don't put anything important in background images... its the law |
| 20:52.33 | fungus | I don't have a problem with using JS, just a problem *requiring* JS. |
| 20:53.11 | zardinuk | well thats always something to take into consideration |
| 20:53.14 | fungus | You can code your site to display alternate text if images are disabled. |
| 20:53.26 | zardinuk | but you sound like you design your sites for the benefit of blind people |
| 20:53.38 | dataw0lf | and that isn't necessarily for blind people. |
| 20:54.15 | zardinuk | I'll use alt text for important images like navigational components or something... cause I'm an occasional links user |
| 20:54.20 | fungus | No don't code for them, just don't code *against* them. |
| 20:54.43 | dataw0lf | I doubt if people who don't include alt's are saying "SCREW THE BLIND!!!" |
| 20:54.59 | dataw0lf | "I'M GOING TO SHOW THOSE BLIND B*ST*RDS!" |
| 20:55.07 | fungus | If the image isn't important to using the site, then leaving an alt tag off is ok. |
| 20:55.45 | zardinuk | don't they have some raised surface image readers for the blind? my god if its so important then there must be a market for accessability software |
| 20:56.29 | fungus | There is a market, but that software isn't perfect, and can't allow for everything. |
| 20:57.14 | zardinuk | so thats on my shoulders, its the law, don't use javascript because the accessibility software isn't good enough to handle it |
| 20:57.20 | fungus | Do me a favor, and at least read the intro to web accessibility. |
| 20:57.25 | fungus | http://www.webaim.org/intro/ |
| 20:57.49 | fungus | No, use JS, just don't require it. That is my only point. |
| 20:57.57 | dataw0lf | I'm not going to, because I hate blind people. |
| 20:58.20 | zardinuk | heh I don't have time for you fungus, seriously... go call someone else an asshole |
| 20:58.20 | fungus | Then I *hate* you dataw0lf. |
| 20:58.40 | dataw0lf | good! FINE! BE THAT WAY! |
| 20:58.51 | dataw0lf | I'm going to go out and tease this blind guy who lives near me, bbl. |
| 20:59.02 | fungus | lol. |
| 20:59.29 | dataw0lf | http://people.zeelandnet.nl/marco/pimpzilla/ |
| 21:03.27 | macnewbold | zardinuk: I will _never_ surrender to the likes of you! |
| 21:05.11 | zardinuk | good, stay there, heh |
| 21:05.33 | dataw0lf | foil hat?? that's nothing. |
| 21:05.35 | dataw0lf | http://www.imagireal.com/gallery/foiled |
| 21:06.34 | zardinuk | I like the foil covered stove/oven... I could use one of those |
| 21:07.24 | dataw0lf | o_O |
| 21:07.30 | dataw0lf | what is this, looney tunes? |
| 21:09.04 | zardinuk | I dont think looney tunes had the wheelchair attack |
| 21:13.27 | macnewbold | hehe |
| 21:13.30 | macnewbold | true story! |
| 21:13.33 | dataw0lf | omgz hax0rz! |
| 21:13.39 | macnewbold | prolly had something to do with javascript... |
| 21:13.45 | macnewbold | http://www.anthonychavez.org/images/haxorpc.jpg |
| 21:13.48 | zardinuk | hah |
| 21:13.56 | macnewbold | that's zardinuk, fretting about his computer |
| 21:14.20 | macnewbold | anyone who uses lynx as their main browser is probably also impenetrable to common sense... |
| 21:14.29 | dataw0lf | it's true. |
| 21:31.18 | dataw0lf | OMGZ I M A HAX0R |
| 21:34.53 | fungus | I bett yous stoeled my magahurtz |
| 21:39.49 | macnewbold | I'll show you megahurtz... >:-| |
| 22:17.06 | zardinuk | heres a slick interface I'm working on, if they select the company radio button (instead of individual), it displays the company name input field, otherwise it doesn't. The company input field is otherwise ignored by the server... but I'd consider this validation |
| 22:17.11 | zardinuk | client side |
| 22:17.44 | zardinuk | I actually use this sort of stuff all over the place |
| 22:17.54 | zardinuk | little + or - buttons to hide data in search results and stuff |
| 22:17.58 | macnewbold | that's fine, as long as your server side stuff and the people involved won't freak out if an individual _does_ send a company name |
| 22:18.06 | macnewbold | _using_ client side validation is okay, |
| 22:18.14 | macnewbold | it's _depending_ on it that is the downfall |
| 22:18.45 | zardinuk | but thats not what you were talking about with your pet peev |
| 22:19.08 | zardinuk | cause nobody does that, heh |
| 22:29.32 | macnewbold | no, that is what I was talking about (intending to talk about, anyway) |
| 22:30.31 | macnewbold | most systems I've seen that use javascript validation on the client side _depend_ on it, and don't do all the validation they should on the server side |
| 22:30.44 | synic | lol... |
| 22:31.04 | macnewbold | many even take everything directly as submitted, without _any_ validation, and accept it |
| 22:31.10 | zardinuk | I've never seen that, but the same goes for lame server side validation |
| 22:31.16 | macnewbold | hehe, yeah, so synic, why aren't you participating? |
| 22:31.33 | macnewbold | but on the server side, at least you know your validation is actually happening |
| 22:31.39 | zardinuk | yeah man, argueing is so fun, I can't get enough of it |
| 22:31.52 | synic | because I don't know enough about the topic to contribute. I avoid javascript like the plague, but only because I don't know it very well. |
| 22:31.54 | macnewbold | I'm about through... It's not my favorite |
| 22:32.05 | macnewbold | ~praise synic for avoiding javascript |
| 22:32.07 | jbot | All hail synic for avoiding javascript! |
| 22:32.09 | macnewbold | ~synic++ |
| 22:32.12 | zardinuk | especially when its something really silly that can go on forever |
| 22:32.18 | macnewbold | amen |
| 22:32.53 | fungus | like working on this cart right now, that only does JS validation, crappy validation at that. |
| 22:33.06 | macnewbold | javascript validation just gives a false sense of security that makes people do dumb things, thinking that they'll be safe |
| 22:33.36 | zardinuk | well security in general is a sham you know |
| 22:33.59 | zardinuk | you could have the most secure connection to some website, give them your CC number and they print it onto a piece of paper and don't shred it |
| 22:34.34 | fungus | Yeah, this cart, actually was emailing the CC info to the site owner. |
| 22:34.44 | zardinuk | you could have a dongle locked program like lightwave or something and along comes some 16 year old kid and cracks it |
| 22:35.10 | synic | mmmm dongle. |
| 22:35.18 | zardinuk | I say go hog wild with javascript, so long as you have the resources to keep up with it all |
| 22:35.41 | zardinuk | and as long as the good outweighs the bad |
| 22:35.50 | synic | what a wonderful word, dongle. |
| 22:36.12 | fungus | hehe, wanna touch my dongle? ;) |
| 22:36.28 | synic | I've been thinking about it all day, actually ;) |
| 22:37.14 | fungus | about the word, or touching mine? :O |
| 22:37.19 | synic | touching yours |
| 22:38.38 | macnewbold | zardinuk: re security, you're very right... half of what you're trusting when you give info to someone is that they will be responsible with it. |
| 22:38.44 | macnewbold | but the same is true whether you're online or not |
| 22:39.02 | macnewbold | anyone who swipes your card probably has a copy of the number, exp., and maybe the ccid |
| 22:39.13 | macnewbold | just like any online merchant you buy from |
| 22:39.28 | zardinuk | I dont really care about my credit card cause its insured |
| 22:39.43 | macnewbold | exactly |
| 22:39.54 | macnewbold | that part of CCard agreements is nice |
| 22:40.16 | fungus | What is the best practice for validating user input? preg_match on every value? magic_quotes only? or something else? |
| 22:42.11 | fungus | I am trying to find a balance between being completely anal, and not checking anything. |
| 22:43.27 | zardinuk | I usually set something up so that if something is going to be validated, it calls a generic validation subroutine on it |
| 22:43.30 | zardinuk | like "validate_email" |
| 22:43.40 | zardinuk | which uses a regular expression |
| 22:43.54 | zardinuk | but phone numbers I strip all non-digit characters and make sure theres 10 digits |
| 22:48.09 | macnewbold | fungus: IMHO, if you've got magic quotes or are doing addslashes properly, you're probably mostly okay, and the only validation you'd need to do is application specific |
| 22:48.29 | macnewbold | trim() can be helpful if you're expecting it not to have leading/trailing whitespace |
| 22:49.37 | fungus | I have been kind of anal mostly. I do a preg_match on every var used in an SQL query, or system call. I am afraid that is probably too slow. |
| 22:52.11 | macnewbold | I can't think of another easy way to replace all the non-good chars all at once |
| 22:53.49 | zardinuk | I wouldn't worry about speed until it becomes an issue |
| 22:56.50 | macnewbold | exactly |
| 22:57.17 | fungus | ok, cool. |
| 23:10.10 | zardinuk | firefox is buggy |
| 23:11.35 | wps | firefox is buggy? |
| 23:11.40 | wps | where/how? |
| 23:13.20 | zardinuk | when I display my page, it looks fine, but if I shift+refresh it messes up the tables |
| 23:13.51 | zardinuk | now my javascript display:block/none stuff causes the tables to get even worse |
| 23:14.01 | zardinuk | IE is fine |
| 23:14.33 | synic | that's like saying Richard Simmons is fine |
| 23:15.10 | zardinuk | huh? |
| 23:16.14 | synic | well, at least xilch thought it was funny :P |
| 23:16.42 | xilch|w | I did indeed |
| 23:17.11 | xilch|w | generally speaking, any sentence that includes Richard Simmons can be construed as funny |
| 23:17.21 | wps | ~richard simmons |
| 23:17.22 | jbot | i guess richard simmons is that pudgy little marshmallow fag that gets people to 'work those booties' on infomercials. |
| 23:17.44 | xilch|w | LOLS |
| 23:17.59 | wps | ~pudgy |
| 23:18.00 | xilch|w | whoever wrote that one is win++ |
| 23:18.09 | wps | ~fag~ |
| 23:18.12 | wps | ~fag |
| 23:18.13 | jbot | i heard fag is a impolite way of refering to bkw |
| 23:18.23 | synic | ~bkw |
| 23:18.24 | jbot | somebody said bkw was wants to eat file's muffin |
| 23:18.29 | synic | ? |
| 23:18.45 | synic | xilch|w: I'll refrain from commenting on that one |
| 23:18.55 | wps | ~marshmallow |
| 23:18.56 | synic | beign that you're already so close. |
| 23:19.04 | xilch|w | benign? |
| 23:19.12 | wps | "being" |
| 23:22.36 | macnewbold | zardinuk: awww, so sad... your little java script thingy is all messed up... hmm, why am I not surprised ;) |
| 23:22.38 | macnewbold | j/k |
| 23:22.43 | *** join/#uphpu mrpull (~mrpull@205.158.184.116) |
| 23:22.51 | macnewbold | The phrase "serves you right" comes to mind... :) |
| 23:22.53 | synic | heh |
| 23:22.53 | macnewbold | welcome, mrpull |
| 23:23.01 | mrpull | i'm back for more action |
| 23:23.02 | zardinuk | I blame the mozilla foundation |
| 23:23.05 | macnewbold | hehe |
| 23:23.07 | macnewbold | yeah, |
| 23:23.10 | macnewbold | that's rich |
| 23:23.47 | macnewbold | it sounds like you're just depending on some b0rk3n MSIE behavior that Moz and friends do the right way... |
| 23:23.54 | zardinuk | I've already worked out hack by wrapping the block in a div, mozilla doesn't like me hiding and showing a tr block |
| 23:24.55 | zardinuk | if you saw what was happing you'd know it was a mozilla bug |
| 23:24.56 | mrpull | can anyone verify if this is fixed in php 4.3.x ? |
| 23:24.57 | mrpull | http://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=26892&edit=3 |
| 23:25.37 | zardinuk | [For those who don't know me well enough to know, I'm half joking and |
| 23:25.37 | zardinuk | sometimes prone to hyperbole, but I'm also at least half serious.] |
| 23:25.47 | zardinuk | lol is that a cop out? |
| 23:25.58 | zardinuk | does it even make sense i wonder |
| 23:26.22 | macnewbold | no, it's just so people don't think I'm completely serious, and start a 2-day argument about it. |
| 23:26.40 | zardinuk | hey you "started" the 2-day argument |
| 23:26.58 | zardinuk | and if you didn't forward me that email this morning it woulda been over |
| 23:27.02 | macnewbold | I just stated my opinion... you're the one that felt the need to argue with it :) |
| 23:27.15 | zardinuk | you stated it in a very argument encouraging way |
| 23:27.18 | macnewbold | and if I didn't forward it, you wouldn't have seen that you were wrong ;) |
| 23:27.20 | macnewbold | hehe |
| 23:27.29 | macnewbold | ~lart zardinuk |
| 23:27.30 | zardinuk | oh, so mac thinks he's still right now? |
| 23:27.56 | zardinuk | i see how things are |
| 23:28.54 | macnewbold | "Can't we all just get along?" |
| 23:30.36 | zardinuk | you just judo chopped me, that is not what ghandi would do |
| 23:31.43 | macnewbold | ~lart zardinuk and ghandi |
| 23:31.52 | macnewbold | jbot, hug zardinuk |
| 23:31.54 | jbot | ACTION hugs zardinuk |
| 23:36.05 | macnewbold | jbot, are you going to let zardinuk treat you that way? |
| 23:36.21 | macnewbold | jbot, are you going to put up with that? |
| 23:36.30 | macnewbold | jbot, dance |
| 23:36.31 | jbot | ACTION does a disco dance. |
| 23:36.47 | wps | what is the "s" is these permissions? |
| 23:36.49 | wps | drwxrwsr-x |
| 23:36.56 | macnewbold | wps: setgid |
| 23:37.01 | macnewbold | set group ID to that of the dir |
| 23:37.01 | wps | what's that? |
| 23:37.10 | macnewbold | any new file gets put in the same group the dir is in |
| 23:37.38 | macnewbold | handy for make web files be in a group that the web server is in but the user is not |
| 23:37.43 | macnewbold | among other things |
| 23:38.27 | macnewbold | mrpull: your error seems to have been fixed on jan 15... any vers after thta day should have the fix, unless the fix was php5 only or something |
| 23:39.03 | mrpull | i'm using the RHEL 4 rpms |
| 23:39.43 | mrpull | and isn't that Jan 15 2004? |
| 23:43.11 | macnewbold | right you are |
| 23:43.17 | macnewbold | I'm guessing it's fixed everywhere then |
| 23:43.25 | zardinuk | have a good weekend |
| 23:43.29 | macnewbold | no idea bout RHEL 4 rpms, but unless they're _really_ old... |
| 23:43.57 | mrpull | they claim to be 4.3.9 |
| 23:44.23 | mrpull | i'm not a coder... so forgive me. |
| 23:44.35 | mrpull | what is the second parameter of the ocinewcollection? |
| 23:44.58 | mrpull | the docs are a little light on that |
| 23:45.21 | mrpull | actually... NM |
| 23:56.14 | *** join/#uphpu synic (~synic@66.239.17.228.ptr.us.xo.net) |
